Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[meowmeow]

ok i have a question for everyone here

when you roll scum, on average, how guilty is your conscience

[meowmeow]

i think black is town
i think aureal is town
i think generic/abnegation is town

i think dannflor is scum

i don't always get all of dannflor's pushes and i'm trying to keep that in mind, but 124 feels almost comically exaggerated for such an early read. it feels less like genuine sorting and more like trying to bury black beneath a wall of text that people's eyes will glaze over and think "ok town lol"

if i have to pick things in particular i don't like about it, the vote thing seems really nitpicky - i really doubt timing of votes is alignment indicative in any way. dannflor later says to aureal "I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" but this is literally exactly what he is doing here - black didn't think to vote in the post where she originally scumreads ccg, and because of that she's scum because town would think to vote. and the idea that black pushing back against people who scumread her is scummy - this is a thing which like happens all the time, people push back against pushes on them they don't like. black in particular does it all the time. for an example from a game i finished yesterday, she pushes back on skitter's read here - i'm too lazy to get more but like it's a pattern of behaviour and not one that's exclusive to black. it feels like dannflor here is pushing back on things which are 'scummy' rather than things which are, like, actually scum indicative. also, he says "I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?". i don't think this is a genuine thought from dann - if he disagrees it's scummy he still

knows

people scumread opportunism, and don't like it when they feel like they're being piled on.

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

i also think there are several dannflor posts that just feel... kind of overly convenient for him. like when if black is town scum definitely aren't pushing her! or because of the claims we have to eliminate the person dannflor is pushing or someone who is probably the towniest player in the entire game.

i also think stuff like, black saying she's ok to die is stuff scum do all the time but town also do all the time. dannflor literally just saw me do this as town. like, to be fair, he also pushed it there, but i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

i don't want to tunnel here but this is my starting point

VOTE: dannflor

pedit: i guess that's interesting. it was the first thing that stood out to me when reading through because like i have never felt any guilt at all when rolling scum ever. i know it's difficult to explain emotions but could you like, idk, elaborate on that guilt?

[meowmeow]

i think of the other players in the game iavh is probably the most likely to flip scum and ccs the most likely to flip town

dunnstral is just meh

i have historically struggled to read t3 but i don't really like his posting either

[meowmeow]

oh well in that case

UNVOTE:

[meowmeow]

i genuinely think it's impossible for any human being, regardless of alignment, to not get frustrated when being pushed by generic

[meowmeow]

re: guilt

idk I just generally dislike lying to people

I don't feel good about manipulating people and often if I do so successfully I feel bad about it. I generally feel relief when I am caught as scum.

how does this help you sort me, or is just general curiosity

a little bit of both i guess

as i said it was the first thing that stood out to me. obviously i've felt guilt over lying/manipulating people, but not really in the context of the mafia game where it's like the whole point. and i don't really think i've seen anyone in the past say they felt guilty as scum

it doesn't seem likely you're lying about it but i'm not sure exactly why you expected black would feel the same things, unless maybe you have seen someone else express that?

[meowmeow]

i didn't feel any tonal dissonance from black when i was reading through and i think something like a townie saying "you can just kill me" doesn't have to make logical sense especially, although i guess i was already townreading black at that point so i can go back and read again

re: guilt, obviously there's no way for me to disprove that i feel guilt subconsciously as scum. i do think i also do probably and question mark a lot as both alignments, and also just outside of games, and it's not something i really see as a sign of guilt at all?

[meowmeow]

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* have

but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black

because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given

I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did

i can understand the merits of this tactic in general but not really on page 5?

[meowmeow]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

VOTE: T3

I don't think he is trying to solve the game. He voted for me on page 2 and since then almost every post has been a timely pop-in to keep the pressure on me. This post feels like an excuse to not do anything until I'm faded

Sure? I mean, I have reads on players that are not you but I haven't been particularly expressive of those reads. I understand where this read comes from though.

this feels like a townpost tbh

[meowmeow]

i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol

i don't think that stuff that happens that early is *less* worthy of being read into. i do, however, think that on page 5 your sample size of "stuff that has been done and can be read into" is too small to make eliminating anyone a very bad idea

i am surprised you disagree with this based on my knowledge of you as a player. you were town in friends and enemies, obviously, and when i was pushing shadi for something that happened early you were implying i shouldn't still believe a read from so close to the start of the game?

pedit: T3 i kind of think you said that too lol

[meowmeow]

is it weird that like no one in the game jumped in to call generic vs. Black TvT

i kind of did! although i guess that wasn't about the argument itself specifically

i think it's like. slightly unusual? but not in the way i particularly feel like i can gather anything useful from it

[meowmeow]

ok i mean on the surface it feels stupid to entertain the idea you might be lying about that but how do you expect me to just kill him. i had been beating the lim shadi drum for like the entire game, i can't just like snap my fingers and eliminate people

[meowmeow]

try harder

pull a me from this game

obviously my logic was flawed because I was wrong but that is what I was thinking at the time

i just don't think this is wise unless your reads are like super super super good like cute seal good.

though this probably isn't going anywhere useful

[meowmeow]

i feel like they both played around me / generic / black in a way that feels like... they just wanted to facilitate what was already happening

I think T3 feels better because he takes a much harder stance

Dunnstral doesn't really say much besides commentating the fight and throwing shade on the lurky slots in 266

and iavh just says its svt but doesn't know in which direction in 272 which is like... idk that doesn't feel super real to me

i actually kind of like this and agree. i didn't actually talk about iavh much because there's not as much to say compared to dannflor but the 'svt' thing also felt off to me and he's done like nothing towny the entire game. dunnstral's reads aren't unbelievable, there's no reason he can't flip town here but idk the black -> t3 thing just feels very easy

i think t3's posting feels scummy on some level but i'm not sure he actually flips scum here. i would compare it to how i felt about cakez in the swinger dance game

[meowmeow]

I'm choosing to town read meowmeow here too

wow such a gentleman

[meowmeow]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

VOTE: T3

I don't think he is trying to solve the game. He voted for me on page 2 and since then almost every post has been a timely pop-in to keep the pressure on me. This post feels like an excuse to not do anything until I'm faded

Sure? I mean, I have reads on players that are not you but I haven't been particularly expressive of those reads. I understand where this read comes from though.

this feels like a townpost tbh

Why? I'm not seeing it and tbh I'm not sure why anyone is townreading T3 at this point

i mean, it just feels like a ??? direction to take as scum. in that position, he can double down on the 'tunnel black' thing, which i think is what most scum players would probably do there, or he can basically just ignore it and push other things if he doesn't want to look like he's omgussing you. if he's really worried, he can turn back and say he thinks you're being towny here. i don't really understand the angle of continuing to push you and being like 'i understand where the read comes from' - it just feels weird and messy in a way i associate more with town who have complex thoughts and aren't, like, trying to play a role

[meowmeow]

actually i guess t3's current position on black isn't super clear? it'd be cool if he explained the vote on dannflor but i think other people already said that. i assumed he kept scumreading black at that point since he wasn't switching his vote

[meowmeow]

meowmeow gives Datisi or Ausuka vibes

i am an alt of ausuka

[meowmeow]

Spoiler: random IAVH meta stuff

Mini Normal 2023 (town) IAVH shitposted a lot early in the game, but made genuine attempts to scumhunt primarily by coming up with strange tinfoil-y theories but also some legitimate scumreads in which you could tell that he was asking himself “why did X person do that?” he read everything hyper-seriously and struggled to understand when other people were joking.

Newbie 2128 (town) is also more of the same. Again, he’s clearly asking himself a lot of questions the entire time. In this game he reacted fairly well to pressure and he expressed strong contempt of the scumreads on him.

MBOS 15 (town) was the exact same as the game previous games. Although in this game IAVH was never actually scumread that much or had a chance to express many reads because he was killed by the mod very quickly.

Soon after going through these three games I realized that IAVH has never actually played a scum game on this site

fwiw this is about where my head is at on iavh too

he's limbaity, but like, in a very distinct way. he says things people don't like and they vote him for it. this game, he just feels sort of... flat? it's a very different vibe

[meowmeow]

Oh it's a kitty. I guess I can give her a chance to do something with the slot. VOTE: Dannflor

Why do you think I'm town? I wouldn't say I'm playing much like our previous game.

ok i have a question for everyone here

when you roll scum, on average, how guilty is your conscience

I think I'd have to be able to roll scum more than once within memory to have an 'average'. But yeah, to belabor the point, it was more 'cunning glee' than 'guilt' for the most part. Which I now try to attain as town with ridiculous sneaky plans when opportunities arise.

it isn't a meta read, i think your posts this game are towny

i think 279 in particular comes from scum a very small amount of the time. i think the point about what dunn and dann are doing is like... good and insightful and vibed a lot with how i was feeling as i read the thread. i generally like the sarcasm, both in that post in 172 - it feels consistent and genuine to me, and i think the intuitive approach as scum is to be more polite to dannflor since you really couldn't give an expletive about anything he's saying about black and that's just helpful in case you need him later.

[meowmeow]

i think i can, at least, be more confident now in my assertion that feeling guilty at rolling scum is not a common behaviour pattern

[meowmeow]

meowmeow makes me continue to townread her slot.
i like many of the points made in her case on dann in 351. the unvote is interesting though — meow definitely still had a case there, it was only that one piece that had been refuted. i think scum might be more inclined to keep voting there, or at least i would be as scum.
or actually, @meow - why did you consider dann's response there to be worth an unvote?

well he told me i was wrong, so he must be town obviously

(i thought it was funny and generally don't care about votes much unless it's a game, uh, bigger than this one)

[meowmeow]

I don't like how I get meta'ed and ppl still go like "let's vote iavh d1 to extend the record of him being yeeted d1"

do you think anyone is scum for it?

[meowmeow]

VOTE: dannflor

i can do this but only because abnegation wants me to....

[meowmeow]

i think in the scumgame abnegation linked for iavh he also feels... a bit flat, especially towards the end

however reading his recent games i found this game where iavh is town and super flat and stale (sorry) and multiple people comment on it.

so i think maybe his playstyle has just shifted more generally? i still don't love his posts but whatever

[meowmeow]

this is the first time i remember someone has been trying to convince me that i shouldn't townread them

i don't think being sarcastic or rude towards dannflor is particularly helpful regardless of your goals as mafia - it probably makes you less likely to successfully eliminate him

[meowmeow]

dunnstral's tone is typical for him and nai

in friends and enemies i do think his posts were broadly like, better than this

[meowmeow]

mwahahaha all part of the master plan meow

[meowmeow]

i dont understand why dann would not scumread me but scumread dunnstral

seems weird

ccs could you like elaborate on your dunnstral progression here. like were you townreading him at this point?

pedit: dunn was town in friends and enemies. dann and i were also both town in that game

[meowmeow]

dunnstral's tone is typical for him and nai

in friends and enemies i do think his posts were broadly like, better than this

Does that tell you anything?

it's not new information; i'm commenting on what others said

my read on dunnstral is still that he is meh because he hasn't really done a lot since i replaced in

he could easily be scum but it's not something i'm especially confident about

[meowmeow]

tbh i think it should be kind of obvious i'm not saying 'mafia are never sarcastic ever'?

i didn't feel like the way you interacted with the thread around dann or black was fake or scummy. i am trying to express that logically. it's based on your interaction with dannflor, not like 'oh sarcasm so town lol'. if i was scum i promise my reasoning would not be 'person is town because they are sarcastic'. i think in this situation, you have a read - you townread black based on her posts so far, you think she's good at scum, you think trying to catch her over simple things is arrogant and you don't like it. if you're town, you care about this - if you're scum, you might care about it but probably don't care about it. i think you come off as genuinely annoyed, and i didn't really see much practical use for using sarcasm in that situation. arguably you could try and anticipate people might townread it, but being level-headed and reasonable typically accomplishes that much better and avoids people getting into fights with you
i also don't think that would be a good scum strategy - people do skim over walls to some extent but generally read the first bit and make an opinion of their own beforehand. skimming isn't the same as skipping entirely. if you used sarcasm in a way that felt fake or out-of-place, that would be asking to get eliminated. if you recognise that dann's posting is flawed, you can again make that point in a way that people tend to think is townier. given that you seem to think it's a good strategy, maybe my read does need to be reconsidered a bit

[meowmeow]

im not on board for iavh bandwagon

in fact, iavh you should sheep me on dunnstral

oh actually ccs i also want to ask you why you townread iavh

[meowmeow]

i'm not sure i understand - why does dann or one of his scumreads have to be scum? is this like related to how he read you compared to dunn? that seems like it would be it but idk where iavh fits into that

pedit: hm that's interesting i will look for that, i don't think i read that yet

[meowmeow]

Iavh seems to be pretty “woe is me” this game?

i agree, but i think what ccs was probably trying to say is that he felt he's very different rather than the 'woe is me' thing being specifically important?

iavh posts are ... not ideal for meta'ing given that they tend to have the minimum amount of words possible to say something, which isn't great when you're removing said posts from all context

all that being said, after reading happy's iso in that game i have like no clue what he's talking about. nothing there looks distinctively different from here. well, that's an exaggeration - i suspect he's talking about the "i don't care just kill me" happy did towards the end, but he only did that in a few posts just before he died when everyone wanted to kill him which i think is a bit different

[meowmeow]

i like many of the points made in her case on dann in 351. the unvote is interesting though — meow definitely still had a case there, it was only that one piece that had been refuted. i think scum might be more inclined to keep voting there, or at least i would be as scum.

Maybe? What would be the town motivation for unvoting?

hmm. that is a fair question but it's not really the way i was thinking about it. i was thinking more in terms of having an agenda (if meowmeow is scum and their agenda is to push dann, unvoting doesn't help) vs. not having an agenda.

my agenda is it was funny and i would do the same thing as any alignment

[meowmeow]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

first of all, i think scum is actually a lot more likely to take this post as a sincere town slip.

this is assuming generic and t3 aren’t partnered

1. When a mafia player sees a townie make a post like this, they automatically assume it is real because it’s coming from someone they know is town.

2. because a mafia player assumes it is real, they give too much credence to it. instinctually a mafia player might assume that it will look suspicious to attack such a post with cynicism or suspicion

but in actuality I think the towny response to Generic’s post might actually be suspicion, or at least some questioning or caution

I find the wordiness of T3’s explanation here unnatural too. It feels a little too performative, especially the last line of “that usually happens in newbie games.” It feels like the classic tell of overexplaining so that you aren’t caught fibbing

how did you feel about that post when you first read it?

[meowmeow]

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

Same tbh. I scumread Dannflor more than Dunn or IAVH, but I also think that it's fairly unlikely that Dunn or IAVH will ever town it up and they'll likely have to be limmed at some point. I still want Dannflor gone today though.

IN THE SAME BREATH AS T3 IS SAYING IAVH NEEDS TO BE LIMMED EVENTUALLY T3 IS SCUM READING ME FOR WANTING TO LIM IAVH

i do not believe this man thinks im scum

this is logically a good point but idk how often ppl who are sloppy like that flip scum

i think t3's posting around black was similarly like, really not good posting, but i felt like it comes across more like limbait than someone going out of their way to try to look town

[meowmeow]

To me it feels like T3 is only "better" because he's trying to come across as townie, which isn't really better at all

can you elaborate here? i think you're probably town based on other posts and usually have good reads but like... i am really not seeing your pov on t3 and dann right now

[meowmeow]

it also helps that I know and respect meowmeow's reads and I think that slot is probably town

oh no the appeal to ego maneuver. it's working...

[meowmeow]

I think it's weird that your response to 501 is to be like "ya that makes sense"

and not like, "well, this is wrong, im town, here is just what i was thinking!"

like idk i expect if you think I'm scum for your initial reaction to be that I'm bullshitting a scum case on you but instead your initial reaction is that my scum case on town!you makes sense?

uh i kind of agree with this actually >_>

[meowmeow]

I thought you and Black probably not scum partners at that time

but in my head the possibilities throughout my push on Black were that you were S/S or T/S and wrong on your read

uh this is strange though

earlier you said your view was along the lines of; "black is scummy. i don't know that she's scum, she might be town, but i think she is above random likelihood to be scum right now. i also know that if black is scum, she is extremely slippery. therefore, i need to exaggerate my push so people will actually listen to me." correct me if anything here is wrong.

like, i don't see how your pov here really fits with that? how can you

not even have thought of black town as a possibility

in that time period? were you not, like, thinking of "what happens if the person i'm tunneling flips town" which you should have thought of as a fairly likely occurrence?


pedit: ok that does make sense, why was he then your top townread by 129? i think you could argue from the black case he's anti associative with black but i don't see how this takes him all the way to top town from his scummy beginnings i guess.

[meowmeow]

To me it feels like T3 is only "better" because he's trying to come across as townie, which isn't really better at all

can you elaborate here? i think you're probably town based on other posts and usually have good reads but like... i am really not seeing your pov on t3 and dann right now

I was trying to say that T3 feels better recently than he did a few days ago, but that might be because the pressure on him has increased and he's putting on his best townie act. I think T3 is more likely to flip scum than Dann here. Did I make this stance confusing or something?

t3's posting just doesn't come off that way to me and i want to know if i missed something i guess

[meowmeow]

look i never said i was exactly playing this game well

this isn't about skill! i don't think you're a bad player at all even if you're town this game

i'm thinking of 365 where you explained your post like this;

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* have

but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black

because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given

I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did

i don't really see what the timeline of townflor is here? like, to me, this means you're simultaneously exaggerating a read that isn't that strong because you think if you don't and black is scum she will win easily, but also you just think black is almost definitely scum this game and seeing everything through that lens. and i don't understand how they coexist or how one turns into the other

[meowmeow]

VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3

was this prompted by something specifically or did u just feel like doing it

[meowmeow]

re: the rest of it uh

i feel like maybe i'm misunderstanding something here?

what percentage of the time would you have said black is flipping scum there.

pedit: this is true my null reads do flip scum a lot

[meowmeow]

i was going to make a joke post where i replace one of the town roles with octuplevoter but the setup isn't actually in the opening posts

the wiki page is linked but it's just not the same

[meowmeow]

i don't really get how your push on black was ever exaggerated if you thought there was a 90% chance she would flip scum tbh?

[meowmeow]

i don't really get how your push on black was ever exaggerated if you thought there was a 90% chance she would flip scum tbh?

tbh this is just a time where I'm not ever going to make sense to you i don't think

kinda like the time in friends and enemies that in my head "slightly exaggerating" was saying you are acting like you are definitely going to be eliminated instead of probably going to be eliminated

i mean i guess i try not to scumread people for not making sense but i feel like believable progressions is one of the things where you sort of have to look at that sort of thing?? especially if it's someone like you who i uh really don't think of as limbait

and like. related to this point if you're 90% sure black is scum i don't see how me defending her leads to you deciding she's probably town? like, i believe you as town would say you respect my reads but it feels difficult to believe it would actually affect your thinking in that way

to be fair you did say you were less sure on a reread and that accounts for some of the difference but it's still sort of bleh to me?

fwiw i don't mind happy not hammering for the time being we have a while and i don't think the day needs to end urgently

[meowmeow]

i mean

And when I flip, and given black is Both a female on the internet and far better known and liked amongst you kids than I ever will be this thunderdome will be a blaze of glory for me, make sure you either yeet or town lock black based on what my alignment is. Seems fair. And I’m sure you are all intelligent enough to work out which alignment means which action

VOTE: black

idk this just feels super counterintuitive as a post for scum to make to me in particular. like players like generic are always abrasive to their targets, but going out of your way to insult your audience and being an ass about 'OMG FEMALE ON THE INTERNET' to me screams that he was just posting whatever he felt like and doesn't give a shit which i associate much more with town. even in the quotes you gave, he's focusing on antagonising his target, but here he's just actively pissing off everyone for no apparent reason

maybe i should be thinking about abnegation more anyway??? but not particularly thinking she's scum aorn

[meowmeow]

i felt so good about that solve

this reaction feels slightly concerning to me considering you shouldn't like... know t3 is town yet? i mean, obviously he's claimed doc etc, but i don't see why scum t3 wouldn't do that to draw a cc

[meowmeow]

there were some nasty jokes in the scum games i skimmed that would piss people off generally but i didn't really quote them because they were unpleasant

i really think that is just his personality

i mean this is fair though and maybe i was townreading generic too easily?? i will think about it

[meowmeow]

ofc I wouldn't want to fade T3
I caught onto that soft and by the time I was available to hammer the CW I can't tell between Dann and Dunn I'm dumm kek
great I love being a wagoned

ok so uh

were you just checking everyone's isos for crumbs in something?

[meowmeow]

ofc I wouldn't want to fade T3
I caught onto that soft and by the time I was available to hammer the CW I can't tell between Dann and Dunn I'm dumm kek
great I love being a wagoned

I find this hard to believe. I think you would have acted against Dannflor if you had really seen T3 soft Doctor early. Being confused by names doesn't really make sense; again, you had several days to decide on something.

i mean i think iavh either did see the slot, or if he did lie about it he's probably equally likely to do so as town vs scum

on the other hand, the idea that he *did* go out of his way to excessively search for role crumbs is much more concerning to me

[meowmeow]

soft not slot smh

[meowmeow]

hm ok yeah that's believable

[meowmeow]

for today ill vote in whatever T3 claims his poe is

hmmmmmmmmm

[meowmeow]

my reads here started out so good and now i feel like they have grown a bit jelly like over time

[meowmeow]

abnegation what was it that made you want to sheep me on dannflor in the first place and what made you want to reverse your read

like in isolation i think dannflor's posts recently could be considered very towny but like if you're the sort of person who thinks that i don't see how you get on the lim dannflor train considering he's been doing fairly similar things that look solvey for most of the game?

[meowmeow]

shrug i guess that it is not impossible that i am being slightly too harsh on dannflor but

[meowmeow]

eh I'll come back tomorrow but i'm probably overthinking it and we just yeet iavh today he's been scummy from the start

[meowmeow]

it makes negative sense to lie about as either alignment and just seems like foot-in-mouth desperation

[meowmeow]

I posted 409 which responded to post 349. Six minutes later, I posted 410 which responded to 393. That post had a notification for me, because you quoted something that I had said. Clicking that notification also takes you to the post in question. So I went from post 349 to post 393. The post you quoted is 351, and is on a different page from either of those posts.

So look, clearly I couldn't have read that post in six minutes, not to mention all the posts in between. The six minutes was spent on post 410, mainly figuring out what you were accusing me of.

As of my post 510 which you criticize above, the most recent vote count at the time is 487. In the votecount, you can click on post links to go to where the votes were placed. The posts linked are the same posts I linked above; and indeed, there seems to be very little conversation about why you should be the elimination in those posts.

ok but did you not like... read that part of the thread at all

[meowmeow]

i wanted to let dunn cook because if he's town i don't think pressuring him is especially likely to help compared to just letting him do his thing and eventually make insightful posts but honestly i think he is just kind of obviously scum at this point. there has not been a single good dunnstral post in this entire game. none of his posting feels at all like he actually cares about finding the mafia, it's all incredibly flat, and his posting about me on this page just underlines that in thick red pen - it really feels like when dannflor was asking about dunn's opinon on him, he just gave an empty answer to make dann shut up (i don't particularly think they are partnered here before anyone asks)

VOTE: dunnstral

[meowmeow]

like the way he tries to turn this into "oh actually there were only six minutes blah blah" when it is super obvious that he never actually read anything i posted about dann based on 755 feels just incredibly slimy

i don't think town!dunn is particularly limbaity either

[meowmeow]

uh that's e1 actually beware etc

[meowmeow]

Well iamveryhappy? What's it going to be?

Why the fuck do I have to decide it
GUHHHHH I hate these moments

What are you thinking champ?

iamveryhappy, do you scumread either of the players at e-1?

If Dunn flips scum I want to say iavh is probably spewed town. I don't think those two players plan this theater out in the PT with Dunn asking iavh this over and over again only to get ignored

i agree w/ this

i think in general dunnstral's posting is careless in a way that doesn't feel like he's partnered with anyone who has seen much heat so far

in particular i think dunnstral and dann are partnered like never especially because of dunn's posting about dann's case on black

i think dunn's posting w/ camelcasedsnivy is actually fairly likely to be partnered? abnegation and aureal, while not as scummy to me generally, make some sense as hypothetical dunn partners too

[meowmeow]

why are you, as a mafia player, busy on the weekend? spending some quality time with your scum partner?

[meowmeow]

didnt see the flip at first

i was so sure about dunnstral that now I'm not sure on anyone anymore i might have to reassess my townreads

how sure about dunnstral were you? i mean, you didn't vote him until t3 did his process of elimination which you said you would follow completely unprompted. if you really scumread dunnstral why bother with all the song and dance around that?

[meowmeow]

lol you really did your research

it was just that i thought this was newd3 for some reason

can you elaborate

i mean the game is called backup6

i don't really think this is rolefishing but it does look like intentionally being like 'omg look at me i don't know the setup! surely mafia would know if a roleblocker exists right?'

[meowmeow]

because if you want to know what roles we could have why not just like. check the setup. or opening post

even if this *was* newd3, which obviously it isn't, that setup also has tracker + doctor as a potential setup

[meowmeow]

i've considered scum abnegation and i'm not really seeing it


798 in particular feels like a town post to me

[meowmeow]

i don't really think it's any of aureal abnegation or black right now, although i'm not a billion percent confident

i want to see what teams within {happy, dann, snivy} make sense i guess but those slots are probably in ascending order of how scummy they are to me

VOTE: camelcasedsnivy for now

[meowmeow]

fwiw i think ccs' posting to enter the day is like surface-level scummy but i don't think it's actually scummy

i think this is more true of abnegation than it is of snivy tbh

[meowmeow]

which posts of hers do you see that way?

i think 798 stands out to me.

like, on the surface level it's a very scummy post. the progression here is practically non-existent. she just says 'idk you made a sense and it made sense lol' - i think most mafia players would agree that's not a great reason to jump on a wagon and it will make people go

but i'm not sure if mafia like, actually just read my question and decide 'yes this is how i would like to respond'. i don't think it's the sort of post mafia write a whole lot.

[meowmeow]

i mean i want to agree but how likely is it that scum dannflor just lets happy do that

[meowmeow]

maybe i'm overestimating happy's willingness to listen to people but i'm imagining that if dann rolls scum with happy he's making like a sequence of 20 walls telling happy exactly what he should be doing in every situation and especially telling him to knock it off if he's doing something that could potentially sabotage his own game?

[meowmeow]

i mean i want to agree but how likely is it that scum dannflor just lets happy do that

I don't know how scum Dannflor plays, and even considering your anecdote I still think this sequence of events from happy is very strange

i can see scum!iavh acting just as awkward in a situation where he is a kingmaker between two town wagons

idk if he's actually scum yet but that would be a very awkward position to be in especially as inexperienced scum

i hate that i keep agreeing with dannflor but i agree with dannflor

i don't think a scum player freezing in that situation is unrealistic at all. scum as a rule of thumb, particularly less experienced ones, tend to hate taking responsibility for town eliminations because they want to avoid the spotlight. if happy wasn't particularly worried about the elimination shifting towards his partner - or even if he worried a hammer would create an associative - he might be very reluctant to take the initiative, especially if he doesn't feel like he has to

[meowmeow]

impossible, when was the last time we were both town and fought each other

[meowmeow]

if happy is scum i just don't really feel like it's with dannflor. i guess it's not impossible. i think snivy/dann fits a lot better in terms of scumflor world

i think snivy's read on happy is, like, pretty anti associative? like the feeling i get from it is mostly just 'oh hey snivy is scum and knows happy is town' - idk if that's tunneled but it is what it is. if snivy is scum, it's definitely not an intuitive move to go to bat for happy for like no reason

maybe i should think happy is town if i don't think he's scum with dannflor or snivy. shrug.

i should also review my townreads although none of them really ~feel~ like scum to me. i think black's theorising about dann/happy comes off pretty town and in general i have liked her since the beginning of the game - would be particularly surprised if she flipped scum here. abnegation i've already explained; it's not impossible i'm just being shitty and overthinking things, and that is something i sometimes do, but she doesn't come off as scum playing it short-term survivalist or scum with any kind of strategy. i liked aureal's early game, but she might be the one here i'm most likely to be wrong about? i find her treatment of my slot to be odd, but her early d2 makes me just want to keep her as a townread because it feels very town. i guess it could be scum with specifically snivy?

[meowmeow]

one braincell

[meowmeow]

wow i can't believe dannflor is deepwolfing me

[meowmeow]

i think if you're scum townreading me, it doesn't seem super likely to me that it's a pocketing tactic? idk maybe it's just me. i don't really think i'm the kind of player that scum need to go out of their way to pocket, especially since i'm always going to be a difficult target for you specifically. if that's the world we're in it seems more likely you'd just be like - oh, if i was town i would townread meow, so that's what i'm doing

[meowmeow]

maybe that's projecting my image of 'generic mafia player' onto 'mafiascum user dannflor' a bit too much shrug, you do tend to be more strategic about everything

[meowmeow]

i forgot that's a public alt x.x

she has and she like completely stomped that game. i found it while i was playing w/ her in bianco's game

[meowmeow]

i forgot what it's called, but if i found it once i should be able to do it again

[meowmeow]

viewtopic.php?t=90462

i think i was thinking of this

[meowmeow]

if you're like around / have time / want to

can you go into specifics on why you town read black so much

i think black doesn't feel like scum in general but especially doesn't feel like how a skilled scum player would play

i don't want to be overly blunt here, but there's a certain archetype of player who is good at scum play and less good at town comparatively - i know black pretty well and i think me and her are similar in that regard. without wanting to give *too* much away i think some of the things i know about myself can be used to read her

for example her early game doesn't make much sense coming from scum to me. i don't think she's scum looking at 51, evaluating her options and deciding her best option is to act like she's sheeping that post. i don't understand the thought process for mafia black in - 1) omgussing geek and 2) then acting like she's sheeping aureal on that read. like, why would she do that? she can play aggressive omgus, or she can play the Reasonable Towny Person. doing this makes her look bad for like no benefit. it makes more sense coming from town who sees that post and thinks, 'yes i feel validated by this post i'm not the only one thinking this' and then voting, imo.

in general, i haven't thought about her entire iso in these terms, but i've had the sense her play didn't seem geared towards achieving a mafia wincon? like 150 feels like a good and natural push to make, and is also something which is counterintuitive for scum black to do here. similarly, her consistent townread on you just feels like a ??? move to make if she's scum, threatened by you, i'm pushing you kinda loudly, she has a history of omgus - even if she's your partner it just doesn't feel right to me that she treats your slot this way. even if she townreads you, does she have to stick out her neck for you and call you the 'towniest slot in the game'? tbh it's weird as either alignment, but i think i'm more likely to see weird town black than weird scum black.

i admit not liking your push on black miiiight have factored into my read on her at first, which is bad of me, but i do think she is just town in this game

tl;dr vibes lol

[meowmeow]

I think what worries my about abnegation (aside from Generic just feeling well within his scum range and kind of LAMIST) is just how reactive and passive she is

and I mean I guess I can take the "not wanting to effort" thing at face value but I tend to think even townies who aren't specifically trying to effort inevitably have points where pro-active sorting or prodding comes out whether said townie is trying to effort or not

her play here just feels very observational and hedgey

none of it is like, spectacularly scummy or anything, but it feels safe - and it doesn't really feel like anything in this game is interesting to her. like she had a pretty wide PoE D1 but I don't really feel like I've been prodded or sorted by abnegation or that abnegation is trying to actively sort anyone else in her PoE

and I guess I just would've expected to see at least glimpses of that by now if she were town

i mean it's not like you're wrong about this

but like, abnegation is at least able to play scum well and in this case i just didn't feel like the passiveness was especially scum-passiveness, just like 'i signed up for this game on the alt and i can't be bothered to log into it all the time so i'm just kind of here' passiveness

maybe it's bad for me to use meta when i don't actually know the alianna meta very well >.>

[meowmeow]

i think snivy's read on happy is, like, pretty anti associative? like the feeling i get from it is mostly just 'oh hey snivy is scum and knows happy is town' - idk if that's tunneled but it is what it is. if snivy is scum, it's definitely not an intuitive move to go to bat for happy for like no reason

Intuitive or not, he did do it as 3p scum in Weird Dreams.

reading that game, i really don't think he did? he was shading the ircher slot for most of the game, and townread it at one point before immediately going back on it. like, i don't think these situations are even remotely comparable

[meowmeow]

i'm confused. wheme flipped town?

is this some sort of bastard thing?

[meowmeow]

to be clear my point was specifically that i don't think snivy behaves like that as scum with exactly happy

as scum with anyone else it doesn't apply

[meowmeow]

i have never read weird dreams mafia redux and i doubt i ever will

i said i don't think you play like you did as scum with happy and aureal said you did in weird dreams redux

the flips seemed to suggest you were scum with ircher so that's what i focused on

[meowmeow]

i think both scum being on the d1 wagon happens frequently in micros and is not something i would consider especially noteworthy personally

[meowmeow]

i don't think i see "x scum on y wagon" being particularly successful most of the time

most scum players, imo, kind of push whoever they think they can push convincingly or who they think they would scumread as town

i would have no issues believing 0 or 1 or 2 scum on the wagon

[meowmeow]

do you think there's a benefit to scum!me in hammering the wagon myself instead of allowing t3 to do it?

Nah, the hammer itself didn't ping me as much as the reasoning behind it. Or lack thereof really. It felt like you jumped from Dann to T3 to Dunn and it didn't really seem like you cared which of the 3 were faded. I guess I would expect town!you to differentiate between the 3 and determine which is the scummiest instead of just going with the flow and wherever the wagons led you

Also, I do feel like while this isn't great in a vacuum, this attitude is possibly town indicative for Alianna at this point. I just finished a game with her and she wasn't seeming terribly motivated there either. Whereas I feel like if she got a Mafia role she'd be more likely to go "yeah!!! Curse is over!!!" and put in more effort.

i think this makes sense

[meowmeow]

Or am I the only one who tries to think about gamestate like this?

I don't think I put enough brainpower into the game to think of it this way

But you post so much more than I do.

BTW can you elaborate on why you think Snivy is town? He's really kinda frustrating me right now with his like, total disregard for explaining most anything about his pov.

I like the social aspect of the game but trying to figure out why people do what they do is hard

I'm not really confident in my Snivy read. I think his posts just give me townie vibes in the way that there doesn't really seem to be scummy motives there. Like what's the point of pocketing iavh? I feel like that doesn't benefit scum!Snivy as much as pushing him would. I think some of his posts seem a little too carefree like it could be an act but I'm not willing to believe that yet

i think this overstates the extent to which scum utilise 'pocketing' as a strategy.

as scum you can't just scumread every potential elimination candidate - i mean, i guess you could, but that's likely to go badly. scum are probably more likely to townread anyone who they think 'looks towny' or they think they would townread as town

but i think snivy's defense of happy here feels a bit off/unnatural, like he knows happy is town already - i think his aureal read is off too

i do also think the newd3 thing was trying to look uninformed about the setup. happy being mafia doesn't mean he knows how every one of his actions will be received in the thread

i think ccs would give carefree vibes regardless of alignment

[meowmeow]

as scum you can't just scumread every potential elimination candidate - i mean, i guess you could, but that's likely to go badly. scum are probably more likely to townread anyone who they think 'looks towny' or they think they would townread as town

Ok. You probably know more about this than I do. Do you think iavh has looked particularly townie this game? Wouldn't it make more sense for Snivy to just push the LHF?

i mean you are inherently arguing here that snivy as town thinks iavh looked towny. the idea he could not have thought the same thing as scum, but could as town, is ??? to me

and no i don't tend to assume scum always push the lhf

but i think snivy's defense of happy here feels a bit off/unnatural, like he knows happy is town already - i think his aureal read is off too

I agree that his read feels a little off but I don't think that's scum indicative

i mean i'm not really sure how to go about arguing that reads looking off is scum indicative

[meowmeow]

hi - not feeling super great rn but hopefully will be back to normal soonish

meow can you elaborate on your Snivy scumread

i thought i had already but sure

the first thing that caught my eye was the "sheeping T3's poe" thing which i thought came off as super unnatural - i didn't really get the sense that snivy thought t3 was worth sheeping in general, and he shouldn't have been drifting enough to want to sheep there given the general confidence he was expressing in his reads. to me he was making a point of sheeping a conftown in a way i thought was supposed to get him townread


i think mafia would know the setup, since at the start of the game they get their roles - rb or no rb - and almost always talk about what that means. mafia also need to know for pr hunting. snivy's claims that dumbslips are nai fall kind of flat to me - i think if he wanted to know the setup, it wouldn't be super hard to look rather than post something like 805, and newd3 does also have tracker + doc. to me it does just like he's trying to be like "i don't know the setup so i'm town" - it just does feel performative to me.

i do also think his confidence on the iavh read is overstated. to give an example of what i mean, since it was being argued earlier - please take a look at this game. i'm publicly an alt of ausuka, to be clear. in this game, i defend enchant a lot on d1, even going so far as to call him 'hard town' and generally like digging into that position. gimli calls me out for this at some point and says my read on enchant is tmi. and he's right - in that game, i genuinely *did* think enchant was pretty towny and the pushes on him were bad and he looked more like his town meta. but given what he had done at that point, there is no way town!me calls him 'hard town' or defends him the way i did in a million years. i wanted to overstate my confidence there because if i soft defended enchant, even though that'd be more realistic, i knew i could be called out for it later. anyway, i do think snivy's confidence and insistence on town iavh is off and he's overplaying it.

i also think the aureal read, having flipped from d1, is bad. like aureal was voting snivy on d1 anyway, it wasn't some sort of new thing. happy immediately coming to a 'solve' of aureal and dann, when he wasn't particularly suspicious of either before, is just... not great. sometimes the simple explanation is just correct.

it would be one thing if this was a game which i felt had like a lot of scum options - i'm not sure i feel that way. iavh and dann are the only people i find it like easy to envision flipping red here - not that anyone else is impossible, but i really don't think i'm going to vote there today - and i don't think iavh and dann are partnered

[meowmeow]

i mean dann/aureal comes off as plausible to me associative wise

i'm just not especially convinced aureal is scum independently so it doesn't feel worth biting on

[meowmeow]

i don't?

[meowmeow]

hmm, 1024 is giving me a bit of pause on my snivy read.

why

pedit: i think iavh and dann are the only people i don't townread, outside of snivy. i thought that would be obvious from the other five paragraphs of that post

[meowmeow]

the secret is always act like you know what you're doing even when you absolutely don't

no one can know

[meowmeow]

the secret is always act like you know what you're doing even when you absolutely don't

no one can know

see, that is easier to do when you don't actually have to be right.

if you're wrong it's someone else's fault and that way you never have to be right

[meowmeow]

i don't think scum snivy has to put on an act to not be paying attention for the most part, tbh

[meowmeow]

i think mafia would know the setup, since at the start of the game they get their roles - rb or no rb - and almost always talk about what that means. mafia also need to know for pr hunting. snivy's claims that dumbslips are nai fall kind of flat to me - i think if he wanted to know the setup, it wouldn't be super hard to look rather than post something like 805, and newd3 does also have tracker + doc. to me it does just like he's trying to be like "i don't know the setup so i'm town" - it just does feel performative to me.

i do also think his confidence on the iavh read is overstated. to give an example of what i mean, since it was being argued earlier - please take a look at this game. i'm publicly an alt of ausuka, to be clear. in this game, i defend enchant a lot on d1, even going so far as to call him 'hard town' and generally like digging into that position. gimli calls me out for this at some point and says my read on enchant is tmi. and he's right - in that game, i genuinely *did* think enchant was pretty towny and the pushes on him were bad and he looked more like his town meta. but given what he had done at that point, there is no way town!me calls him 'hard town' or defends him the way i did in a million years. i wanted to overstate my confidence there because if i soft defended enchant, even though that'd be more realistic, i knew i could be called out for it later. anyway, i do think snivy's confidence and insistence on town iavh is off and he's overplaying it.

these paragraphs are very, very interesting and i think they're probably very ai for meowmeow. i just can't decide which way.

uh this kind of sounds like not being ai with extra steps?

[meowmeow]

like what does 'interesting' mean here

[meowmeow]

I think there's a world where he's scum and his whole agenda has been to put on this nonchalant townie act with townslips, not paying attention, etc, but some of his posts/interactions and stances have felt genuine enough for me to really doubt this

Talk to me about your Abnegation read

also w/ the townslip, which i think is only one? i do think if snivy is scum it makes a lot more sense for his scum partner to have come up with it

as i said in my big post, snivy is obviously not familiar with newd3 which is part of why the whole thing was so strange. i don't think it's something he'd go for as either alignment and it was just executed in an unnatural way. it makes a lot more sense if someone else came up with it over the night phase, and i think that's also just inherently more likely than snivy just deciding he wants to townslip suddenly

[meowmeow]

i mean yes - obviously if i got the chance to communicate with snivy i would've gotten him to say it very differently but the core idea of 'pretend not to have information about the setup/get the setup wrong' doesn't seem especially novel or outlandish and i'm surprised you see it that way? unless you're specifically talking about "snivy please the exact second d2 opens ask everyone what roles exist for literally no reason and do it in an incredible way" which yes no one would do but people don't tend to communicate that specifically

i don't think happy would come up with it. i think anyone else in this game could

[meowmeow]

and like the asking about interesting wasn't because i don't know what the word interesting means or whatever? i think a lot of your recent posting has been like ... increasingly "empty in a way that wants people to think it isn't empty" and i would like to hear some alignment thoughts. like your most recent actual read is saying actually snivy might be scum and suddenly he's your second strongest townread? the 'this is interesting but i'm not sure what i think of it' type of post is like... not that uncommon, and not inherently bad, but in this case i'd like you to elaborate on your thoughts to show you are actually thinking about it. that type of post generally means you have reasons to think it might be very towny or very scummy and they're conflicting. i know i am me but i think the paragraphs you quoted just like... aren't super ai for me either way.

pedit: oops

[meowmeow]

i got dannflorred

[meowmeow]

in my experience they get read as town pretty frequently shrug

obviously if you townslip in a weird way people will call it out

[meowmeow]

and like even if it's actually a bad strategy or whatever i think it's p uncontroversially something mafia do so i'm not sure i see the relevance

[meowmeow]

i mean i struggle to see ccs organically doing the newd3 thing as mafia in the same way i struggle to see him doing it as town

it's possible the partner just mentioned it after as potential damage control shrug

[meowmeow]

i feel like the correct answer is 'i don't know'

like, i think the only person i'm comfortable ruling out is happy based on associatives. even then i'd reconsider that if i got to 3p elo and would hope others do the same

i could go through isos and rank everyone else i guess? so far i've mostly been focusing on 'teams which are possible' and 'teams which are unlikely' which feels more productive for d2 - i don't really expect to nail the team

it could be dannflor pretty realistically i think. it could be abnegation. it could even be you!

[meowmeow]

meow

[meowmeow]

i would probably just vote dannflor if this happened a little while ago but i haven't especially liked abnegation's recent activity

she kinda deflected my question into a townread on me which is great and all but not really the topic at hand and did feel a bit like trying too hard not to be 'defensive'

i don't have great confidence in picking out the exact scumteam right now

[meowmeow]

dannflor is difficult to me

on an intellectual level i still believe the stuff i said about his early game

maybe i should be weighting stuff that happened before i joined the game higher than i am? since none of that was playing to an audience of me

it's also possible that i should be more suspicious of dannflor townreading me? which i don't think he does especially often and particularly as hard as he does here


i have generally agreed with a lot of stuff he has said d2. i think if snivy is scum especially dann isn't like *that* likely to like... vote there in 1029 after i case ccs. he should at least be trying to take agency for that push, but since it's a micro i'm not sure dann busses there at all. i guess i like that he was taking what i say seriously which uh may or may not actually be alignment indicative??

i guess just generally his d2 play also feels less scummy because it feels more 'generally lost and directionless' rather than 'master plan dannflor posting lots of wally posts which make people townread him' which is what he was doing d1, and the consequences are predictably that he's getting wagoned. i think scummflor is maybe more likely to be efforting this situation

overall my read on him is like super murky but i'm not sure i want to lim there right now?? at least i do think snivy is better

[meowmeow]

worse

i haven't been a massive abnegation fan recently but i still think some of her earlier posting was towny shrug

a lot of that could have been overthinking but like i do think snivy is just comparatively more likely to flip scum

[meowmeow]

i'd also be interested in hearing why abnegation thinks black is top town

on reading her iso it's not obvious if that read has developed at all since she replaced in

[meowmeow]

if it is abnegation and aureal i kind of suck at mafia

pedit: oh tru

[meowmeow]

dann what are your reads like

i mean i get a broad sense of it but do you think snivy flips scum here rn? i'm surprised you switched wagons when abnegation and aureal both have votes

[meowmeow]

I don't really know why I'm hard town reading you

There's a paranoid part of me that's like uh oh maybe meowmeow is someone I always scum read when she's town and now that she's scum her tone shifts in a way that makes me town read her

but for a few reasons that paranoia hasn't really gripped me in a way I've taken seriously, at least not yet

I think the game just makes a little more sense if you're town ig and i kinda town read your predecessor and i think you're being pretty towny in unforced ways

idk maybe I'm underestimating your scum game but also I have a feeling you might have just eliminated me already if you were scum

could you like elaborate on the reasons other than the last line

[meowmeow]

generic could be conf biased rn

i guess this could be a partner post? the 'could' here feels overly cautious

snivy/abnegation solve is easy but that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong

[meowmeow]

yes i'm hilarious please laugh

[meowmeow]

generic could be conf biased rn

Wouldn’t be the first time for me. I will take that on board though and try and step back with a more measured eye.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[meowmeow]

i'm not sure i understand - why does dann or one of his scumreads have to be scum? is this like related to how he read you compared to dunn? that seems like it would be it but idk where iavh fits into that

pedit: hm that's interesting i will look for that, i don't think i read that yet

no way all three of them are town pointing fingers at each other

i just dont see that as a likely circumstance

i'm reading the snivy iso and re-tunneling myself

sorry snivy you are getting notifications for posts which aren't really addressed to you but it feels so much better than using post tags because like only dannflor and maaaaybe abnegation are actually going to click them

[meowmeow]

I don't really know why I'm hard town reading you

There's a paranoid part of me that's like uh oh maybe meowmeow is someone I always scum read when she's town and now that she's scum her tone shifts in a way that makes me town read her

but for a few reasons that paranoia hasn't really gripped me in a way I've taken seriously, at least not yet

I think the game just makes a little more sense if you're town ig and i kinda town read your predecessor and i think you're being pretty towny in unforced ways

idk maybe I'm underestimating your scum game but also I have a feeling you might have just eliminated me already if you were scum

could you like elaborate on the reasons other than the last line

the way people i am scum reading are treating your slot (abnegation, ccs) feels like they are tiptoeing around you in a way that they know you are town

you are reevaluating and making really nuanced reads constantly and i think at a certain point scum!you might just put in a little less effort because you really don't need to in this game state?

hm i can see where the thought comes from with abnegation because that was what i was thinking about the whole 'interesting' interaction we had

what about ccs? i guess he hasn't been bringing me up much, is that what you mean?

pedit: camelcasedsnivy logs on and gets 40 notifications all from me and dannflor and absolutely none of them are meant for him to answer in any way

[meowmeow]

but yes i see the point with 291 and agree

[meowmeow]

i agree with the confidence on dann/aureal being off, i've raised that point

i guess like ... i agree in the sense i think snivy is scummy but don't really get how that inconsistency means i'm not partnered with him fypov

[meowmeow]

What... does that even mean?

i think that means i have his permission to vote him?!

[meowmeow]

i'd also be interested in hearing why abnegation thinks black is top town

on reading her iso it's not obvious if that read has developed at all since she replaced in

it's just that she hasn't done anything to make me doubt my original read.

uh was your original read just like 'scum black wouldn't get wagoned' or am i missing something

[meowmeow]

The one thing about Abnegation that is giving me pause rn is that she's still voting Aureal when she previously thought Aureal/Dann was the scumteam.
It just seems like such weird move to make as scum.
Especially when Dann is a more viable counterwagon to herself.

is this like you're scumreading abnegation but think this one thing is towny or you think abnegation is town?

i would appreciate more reads from you in general. i am not as convinced your slot is town as other people seem to be

[meowmeow]

i'll be on tomorrow to make sure we get a lim through

i still think snivy is probably the best vote and it sort of feels like that has some chance of happening

i guess i just don't feel all that strongly about dannflor vs abnegation either? my impression of abnegation has been going downhill a lot recently so might just end up voting there but meh

[meowmeow]

i mean, obviously i do not think mafia never use sarcasm zzz.

i also hard disagree about the joke thing; i think it was like pretty obviously not serious and was also bemused people thought otherwise

maybe if they were scum they would have communicated better but i don't think snivy is the kind of person to talk things through before interacting w/ his scum partner especially

[meowmeow]

if abnegation flips scum track me

if i'm the tracker i'm confirmed town and will target aureal

[meowmeow]

i think expanding the limpool is like *exactly* what scum needs to be doing here fwiw and i agree abnegation's pivot onto aureal is like... somewhat out of place and feels fairly distancey to me assuming she's red

i'm biased but i think the push on me is zzz

pedit: if there's a cop i think it goes without saying they can investigate a suspect

[meowmeow]

i don't think we have a cop tbh ^.^

[meowmeow]

fwiw i was thinking aureal was the tracker d2 starting with how she responded to snivy's whole thing and then i ctrl+f'd her iso for 'track' and saw a hit and i was like mm ok

i wasn't super duper confident in that and thought it was even possible aureal was just scum but it was the line of thinking i was going down when i wrote that post - i was trying to tell aureal like, if you're the tracker, go ahead and track me because i do not feel like dealing with this bullshit

afterwards i realised i fucked up and tried to draw the nightkill and pretend to be the tracker because that was the only thing i could see working. obviously it didn't - i imagine scum would have planned to cc me if i was actually the tracker regardless.

i mean it was a stupid post to make and i need to learn more from my scum game when playing town tbh. i'm not sure what other people's reads are but i am not getting the sense it will be very likely to win this game which is mostly my fault

[meowmeow]

i do want to question why black thought it was a scumslip at first rather than possibly a tracker-slip

i thought dannflor's reaction was more natural

[meowmeow]

fwiw i was thinking aureal was the tracker d2 starting with how she responded to snivy's whole thing and then i ctrl+f'd her iso for 'track' and saw a hit and i was like mm ok

i wasn't super duper confident in that and thought it was even possible aureal was just scum but it was the line of thinking i was going down when i wrote that post - i was trying to tell aureal like, if you're the tracker, go ahead and track me because i do not feel like dealing with this bullshit

afterwards i realised i fucked up

and tried to draw the nightkill and pretend to be the tracker because that was the only thing i could see working. obviously it didn't - i imagine scum would have planned to cc me if i was actually the tracker regardless.

i mean it was a stupid post to make and i need to learn more from my scum game when playing town tbh. i'm not sure what other people's reads are but i am not getting the sense it will be very likely to win this game which is mostly my fault

I'm not really buying this tbh

I don't think town!meow considers 1198 a "fuck up" but I think scum!meow does. It's not like she outed who she thinks the tracker is, she just made it seem like she knew there was one. Why would town!meow's first thought be "oh I fucked up"

i do want to question why black thought it was a scumslip at first rather than possibly a tracker-slip

i thought dannflor's reaction was more natural

I don't think a "tracker slip" would involve you telling someone to track you

... why would i not care about the idea of getting miseliminated. i'm not stupid, i knew if abnegation flips town it's elo immediately afterwards. this makes negative sense to me.

i mean, presumably the whole point was that it looked like tmi that a tracker exists, so why wouldn't me being a tracker be a possibility there? this is a nice line to use in an argument but it makes absolutely no sense in context - i specifically said like if i'm the tracker i would be confirmed town and track aureal.

[meowmeow]

i guess there is a certain type of town player that thinks like

oh town should be super cavalier and never care about surviving and anyone who even shows any awareness of their own situation is scum

idk if black is really that kind of player though.

[meowmeow]

Black I don't know why you think a meowmeow/dannflor team would have meowmeow hard bus me D1 to E-1 and me hard town read her all the while

also this? i think me and dannflor are pretty blatantly not teamed

[meowmeow]

snivy's entrance into the day is probably +town unless maybe teamed with dannflor specifically

snivy/dannflor was kind of what i thought on d2 anyway but it's pretty rare that i get to elo and my previous reads were actually just entirely correct i guess

obviously i don't like black's handling of this whole situation and the freedom slot has done like nothing all game?

i probably just need to sit down and think about this at some point because my thoughts are not very organised

[meowmeow]

i know some people are like somewhat manipulative as town and play town with their image strongly in mind a lot, particularly people with strong scumgames

i don't know how strong my scumgame is but i think it's definitely better than my towngame and if i were more self conscious i would, uh, say less things that make me get scumread lol

[meowmeow]

... why would i not care about the idea of getting miseliminated. i'm not stupid, i knew if abnegation flips town it's elo immediately afterwards. this makes negative sense to me.

i mean, presumably the whole point was that it looked like tmi that a tracker exists, so why wouldn't me being a tracker be a possibility there? this is a nice line to use in an argument but it makes absolutely no sense in context - i specifically said like if i'm the tracker i would be confirmed town and track aureal

So basically you're saying you were afraid to get misfaded because your tracker comment seemed informed. If that's true then why am I so suspicious for thinking it was a scum slip?

because i knew i wasn't the tracker and you shouldn't have known that

[meowmeow]

Black I don't know why you think a meowmeow/dannflor team would have meowmeow hard bus me D1 to E-1 and me hard town read her all the while

also this? i think me and dannflor are pretty blatantly not teamed

I'm going to look at this later because I admit I'm not sure how likely the pairing is based on posts but I wouldn't mind hearing in your own words why you think it's so blatant

dannflor was pretty widely townread when i replaced in and then i started deathtunneling him on d1 and then he decided to hard townread me for it

it would certainly be a ... creative, way to play scum. i think we would be much better off just like ... letting dannflor cook, because he's a good scum player, and in this scenario i would be eating up all his oxygen

even if we decided we needed to bus d1 in a setup where there's a 2/3 chance a tracker or jailkeeper exists, i think i would've asked dannflor to get into it with me a bit more because people instinctively townread actual fights

just in general i don't feel like the two of us being a scumteam makes much, if any, sense

[meowmeow]

obviously i don't like black's handling of this whole situation

What is my motive here if I'm scum? This is probably wifom but wouldn't it make more sense for me to push a Dann/Freedom solve? I already thought it could be them earlier and Freedom is clearly less likely to put up a fight here. I feel like I would just be making things harder for myself if I were scum

because scum players don't need to take the path of no resistance here? you might have expected other people to be much more suspicious of the ""slip"" than they actually are, and a scum black probably wants to be keeping her options open in terms of potential pushes! there's not much reason for you to immediately decide oh it's still dann/freedom because i said that earlier

often in elo the scum are people i have been townreading, but i probably do need to like actually reread the game and try and think from a fresh perspective when i have time. zzz effort

[meowmeow]

if ccs is scum with dannflor they might play it like this?

my instinct is that if dannflor is town and ccs is scum, he's probably more likely to take the townread rather than stare the gift horse in the mouth, i guess.

could it be freeblack? I mean off the top of my head there's not much reason why not

i don't really expect freedom to do anything regardless of alignment. iavh also did pretty much nothing. this is not great considering elo but of the two iavh posts are proooobably going to be more readable

pedit: i mean it seems possible scum also thought aureal was the tracker. dann or black could have had a similar thought process as i did with the ctrl+f button and the start of d2, and it only takes one of them

i guess if it's like specifically ccs/freedom it's not that likely?

[meowmeow]

i mean as soon as she got pushed she said "side-tracked"

maybe that's just me overthinking things but combined with the other thing it seemed pretty likely and i don't think it's impossible mafia had the same thought peocess?

[meowmeow]

i guess it depends how common of a word sidetrack is to use naturally

i hear it like basically never irl

searching the forums shows it's not, like, never used but is used very sparsely? i haven't gone to the effort of checking if any of those uses were tracker softs lol

[meowmeow]

i mean... you were the one who asked why i thought that? is there any possible answer to that which can't be countered with "ok but what if you just WANTED things to look that way"

[meowmeow]

Why have you been so confident in your meow read? I feel like Ausuka is probably a good enough scum player where you should probably have more doubts than you have displayed this game

if you think i'm a good scum player - i'm not sure i've ever played scum against you - why are you so convinced i scum slipped with literally zero pressure to do so?

[meowmeow]

i mean i agree with dann that you vt claimed by saying you were ok with dying tbh

[meowmeow]

i don't really see why he needs to press to reveal more when you did everything but put up a neon red sign saying "i claim vanilla town!!"

[meowmeow]

i think it's crazy to think a town power role would say they are ok to be hammered at e-1 but ok

[meowmeow]

black/snivy looks very possible from an ISO of black

the one thing that gives me pause is that snivy goes in a bit hard with the defense of black and it doesn't seem super likely scum snivy does that - i think it's more intuitive for scum players, especially newish ones, to do at least a bit more distancing

[meowmeow]

the emotional play there is to claim pr and dunk the people pushing you

i just cannot fathom any thought process that leads anyone to say they're ok with being hammered as pr idk

[meowmeow]

well if CCS is scum he 100% hard defended his partner from my pov

I think it makes some sense in this setup and as newer scum I’ve also had the thought process of “i’ll just defend them so hard no one will think we’re aligned”

I actually won purgatory a notoriously town sided setup off that *brag*

i mean that's fair from your perspective. i do think at least on the surface level ccs/dann is more likely but i haven't like sat down and properly read both of you

i think it's fair to say scum do hard defense sometimes but i see them put their partners in null to scum a lot more so it's like a matter of probability. there isn't any team here which i think is actually impossible

i also think as a high effort player you're naturally more likely to do things which aren't intuitive compared to the average player. hopefully that is phrased well

[meowmeow]

I think even as a “high effort” player I never swap back and forth between ccs and abnegation so many times yesterday

like what was i doing there if paired with ccs

he very well could have flipped

I wasn’t making myself look good if he did flip red

i mean that point was more about the purgatory thing

i do agree you being a high effort player is if anything a point against you/ccs because i think you could have hardbussed snivy and usually i would say you're being nice to your scum partner but i think you care too much about your winrate to do that

[meowmeow]

i mean meh i guess the easy answer is just snivy and iavh since there's only really one hurdle to leap over. i am not particularly convinced.

[meowmeow]

Perhaps. What do you think of the spat between Black and Generic?

meh. boring.

I could do that better

feels svt
I am really uncertain who is scum and and who isn't tho

hm

i think with dann and ccs i need to go back and read D2 and get a better feel for how it went down. i did feel like for quite a while it was just me and dann against everyone else

[meowmeow]

i am town

[meowmeow]

if it's actually black and iavh i have been a massive potato this whole time

[meowmeow]

i thought ccs read on iavh looked tmi the whole time

i think I'm supposed to re evaluate in elo so i'm holding off on that but i never liked the read and never will

[meowmeow]

i thought ccs read on iavh looked tmi the whole time

i think I'm supposed to re evaluate in elo so i'm holding off on that but i never liked the read and never will

i always thought iavhs wagon was quite bs but he really was nulltown at best

He’s never really been wagoned

shades probably a better word

i just really struggle to understand this.

like, iavh does jack all game. what are you expecting? people to

not

PoE him?

[meowmeow]

do you expect people to be familiar with iavh's scum game? and uh, why didn't you say that? unless i'm forgetting something

i think i looked at iavh's meta and only saw town games

[meowmeow]

also uh this isn't really the town iavh i remember either.

he was very loud and very confidently incorrect a lot of the time. he posted a lot of things in general. iirc i townread him correctly when i played with him

[meowmeow]

didnt see the flip at first

i was so sure about dunnstral that now I'm not sure on anyone anymore i might have to reassess my townreads

uh how sure were you about dunnstral here ccs?

like you voted him after he was part of T3's poe, which you said you would vote him, and the other 3 people were you and your two top townreads. i am kind of getting conflicting vibes here

[meowmeow]

wat...
are we not playing newd3
darn it

this is an interesting post

i feel like it increases the chance of ccs/iavh and reduces the chance of any other iavh team? i don't think he needs to take the heat off snivy this way. and like at first i read it as a joke, and it's obviously kind of meant that way? but it does seem like it's actually trying to diffuse the attention being put on snivy

[meowmeow]

didnt see the flip at first

i was so sure about dunnstral that now I'm not sure on anyone anymore i might have to reassess my townreads

how sure about dunnstral were you? i mean, you didn't vote him until t3 did his process of elimination which you said you would follow completely unprompted. if you really scumread dunnstral why bother with all the song and dance around that?

lmao i forgot about this. thank you past me very cool

[meowmeow]

i don't really think it's any of aureal abnegation or black right now, although i'm not a billion percent confident

i want to see what teams within {happy, dann, snivy} make sense i guess but those slots are probably in ascending order of how scummy they are to me

VOTE: camelcasedsnivy for now

well at least 1 of these are mafia !!!

[meowmeow]

wat...
are we not playing newd3
darn it

this is an interesting post

i feel like it increases the chance of ccs/iavh and reduces the chance of any other iavh team? i don't think he needs to take the heat off snivy this way. and like at first i read it as a joke, and it's obviously kind of meant that way? but it does seem like it's actually trying to diffuse the attention being put on snivy

tbh if that really was the team no way in hell would we be thinking like that

i mean regardless you're not going to say 'wow you got me let's pack it up' so i'm not going to care what you say unless you have a reason why i should believe that

[meowmeow]

meowmeow who are you not willing to vote

pedit thats because me and id imagine iavh are bad at coordinating

i don't think it would require co-ordination. i mean i doubt iavh would have come up with a whole plan but whatever i could have been wrong about that

if you were scum together it would just be like, iavh seeing you getting heat and being like ok if i say this ccs looks less weird?

maybe my thought processes are weird and should not be projected onto others but in the absence of witnessing people behaving differently, that is my baseline

[meowmeow]

tbh idk if there's anyone i actually townread here lol

dannflor might actually be the towniest player in the game despite not actually being towny?? but i haven't like sorted out my black thoughts yet

[meowmeow]

tbh idk if there's anyone i actually townread here lol

dannflor might actually be the towniest player in the game despite not actually being towny?? but i haven't like sorted out my black thoughts yet

you don't townread me!!! don't try and make me feel guilty smh

[meowmeow]

I finished reading up and why does it feel like ccs is trying to pocket me?
But eh, I think I'd probably go for him today.

this makes freedom/snivy either much less or more likely depending on how good rh9's scumgame is which i actually don't remember right now

[meowmeow]

freedom is rh9?

i feel certain that's a public alt like me

uh sorry if that's not the case but i'm pretty sure it is. it definitely got revealed before the team mafia game we played together, as the rules state

[meowmeow]

after briefly thinking about it i have decided to take his actions as surface level and indicative of scum freedom with town iavh

[meowmeow]

the quantity is not that important to me because unfortunately i don't think freedom is ever going to post much

i think deciding now ccs is pocketing him after ccs had been townlocking iavh slot the whole game, and has just now decided that was bad and iavh could be scum, is ??? to me and does not feel like a real perspective

not to relitigate the scum pt thing but could be something he read in the scum pt that's outdated tbh

pedit: oh uh i definitely meant to imply that the scum player replaced a town player

but yeah i meant scum freedom town ccs feels more likely from that

[meowmeow]

in the scum freedom game i read he claimed watcher and said his target didn't get visited on the night they died.

and everyone outguessed themselves and decided scum wouldn't be so obvious

so taking things as they seem feels like it is probably the right move here.

[meowmeow]

as in you think he's scum or just happens to be paired with everyone like some kind of mafia centipede

[meowmeow]

this is true. all the town flips so far have been staged to troll dannflor

[meowmeow]

i mean what i was trying to say was

saying he's 'a likely partner for someone here' confuses my brain.

idk if that's me being stupid but it sounds like he's partnered with everyone

which theoretically could mean 'he has scummy associatives with everyone' or 'that slot is just scum' etc

it's not that much of a point of interest but i am asking so i can parse the thread better

[meowmeow]

i'm still worried about it being black/snivy fwiw.

[meowmeow]

i am going to have to scrutinise iavh and hope he spews alignment at some point because i really don't think freedom is ever going to

[meowmeow]

I’m really confused. Someone sum up the argument bc I can’t read

wow i'm really glad this slot has two players who make a lot of game relevant posts that are easy to read for alignment

[meowmeow]

Perhaps. What do you think of the spat between Black and Generic?

meh. boring.

I could do that better

feels svt
I am really uncertain who is scum and and who isn't tho

this is so ??? to me

idk if i should even find it scummy because it's so ???

i guess it tilts me toward freedom/black

[meowmeow]

444 is just a lie

i've played with happy before and he is not always like that lol

[meowmeow]

viewtopic.php?p=13806972&f=53&t=91084&u ... #p13806972

this is the game i'm thinking of

[meowmeow]

well i can't townread any iavh posts

they all suck ass

if that slot is town we're kind of finished tbh

[meowmeow]

freedom you wouldn't happen to feel like efforting or something would you

[meowmeow]

i was not on the abnegation wagon and therefore am absolving myself of all blame

[meowmeow]

no but if freedom is town he wouldn't be posting anything either

if he was just frozen scum at least i could potentially feel good about voting there

it's just a limbo where the slot isn't readable and probably never will be

i guess it's probably not scum with snivy. i will go out on a limb and say that. that's all i can do

[meowmeow]

please don't random vote me i would be very sad

[meowmeow]

meh i get it but at least try to vote correctly and not just anyone if you're town

this game doesn't feel great but losing on a 'just vote anyone' would be the worst possible way for it to end

[meowmeow]

tbh if black is town and my d2 poe was right i will be a little -_- about it

[meowmeow]

uh not scum with snivy i guess?

[meowmeow]

i have some level of concern for black/snivy but whatever. i've read through their associations and they aren't like great but there's no smoking red alarms and frankly like i kind of sympathise with the feeling of wanting to vote freedom here

[meowmeow]

if black is scum and wins i will have been fooled by her for most of the game and she will have successfully convinced the town to stop going after snivy despite my best efforts

so whatever i'm not too broken up about that outcome

[meowmeow]

Black says they have no thoughts on snivy like 3 distinct times in the early game

I feel it’s somewhat intuitive to have either some thoughts on your partner or not mention them at all

i don't think that's true broadly but might be for someone like black who is p competent