Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

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VOTE: SuperfluousNinja
Going 1v1 until one of us dies.
Most damning evidence in all game.

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You cannot believe someone is mafia as much as Ninja did, up to a point where she "has nothing to talk about anymore" and good with the yeet, and then after flip JUST because they were town, you blame everyone for voting them.

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I have to go back and see if Dann's case on Ninja can be S/S.

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But it is not gonna be for today. Today i am going to use all my time to explain why Ninja is mafia.
Haters gonna hate and most of the people wont buy it i guess, but i am still gonna do it.

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But...if Ninja's town, she's going to be looking at the wagon from the perspective that scum might well have been involved, especially in a wagon that moved so fast. After Dunn's green flip, it seems natural to have this going through your mind, even though it does seem a little unfair to include Dann in the list when Ninja could have easily dropped the hammer herself. That said, her focus was very much on oats in her analysis, which is fair enough.

She focused on me, even voted on me. When i was the one to earlier say NOT TO YEET ANYONE.

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Like i was literally afk when they decided to yeet Dunn.

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Yet she took my earlier comment of "don't do this you stupid" a day or so ago, as a scumtell.

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You have no TOWN reason to doubt the purity of a wagon that you declared to be a part of for the same reasons as the others.

You‘d remember why he got limmed for the same reasons you believed in

So you would never look suspiciously at a wagon that flipped town if you had approved of it?

Yeah, i would not, because i would think a townie would think the yeeted town player was mafia

as i did as town.

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Especially D1. If you townread the other wagon (which i think she did at the time).

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this is boring

why is this borinng? you have suspected Ninja since from when i remember?

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But...if Ninja's town, she's going to be looking at the wagon from the perspective that scum might well have been involved, especially in a wagon that moved so fast. After Dunn's green flip, it seems natural to have this going through your mind, even though it does seem a little unfair to include Dann in the list when Ninja could have easily dropped the hammer herself. That said, her focus was very much on oats in her analysis, which is fair enough.

Why would ninja be perfectly fine with being on/hammering Dunn day 1 then suddenly go “mafia has to be on the wagon that I would’ve been on if dann didn’t hammer”

I covered that in the post you quoted - it was unfair to include Dann, but he wasn't the focus of her analysis anyway.

So if her focus is me, why does she widen the net to include everyone that was on it “late” which literally would’ve been herself?

From what i see, her focus was on ME actually at the time of the wagon analysis.
And that's also a suspect, because while i voted, i acted EXACTLY as she says a townie should act (tell not to hammer).

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imo OoO is town with the way he acted during this whole thing. I also think ninja is pretty obvious town too.

Okay...this REALLY confuses me. Because OOO's reaction to this and mine could not possibly be more different.

Mine was, great, you've got a lead, let's see where it takes us, the end. Some other people tried pushing me for stuff, and I was largely just like, nah, I don't really see the need.

OOO did one of the biggest songs and dances I've ever seen in this place. What about this? What about that? Ninja, can we get a reads list? Vivax, what do you think about this? Luca, let's have it out with more bullshit! Hey Vivax, what do you think about this and that and the other thing? How many more words can I insert here to try and stir up as much shit as I possibly can and hopefully distract everyone from what is going on here?

I admit to being a little slow at the start, but I figured it out eventually: the main reason you wanted to wait was to see who would do everything in their power to try and distract from it, who would throw up more smoke and mirrors, who would do anything other than just "cool, let's hear what you have to say". I thought there was a chance that you made the claim up, but I did figure out that that's why you were waiting.

Because, let's be real: if you really were outing yourself as some investigative role who found scum, either as a cop or a watcher who saw who visited Roden or some such thing, there's NO reason to not just focus entirely on what you have to say. There's little reason to keep on speculating, to keep on having these discussions, when you (allegedly) have the ability to narrow down the target list which would probably put a lot of theories to bed and would obviously make at least some, if not a lot, of what was said between your initial announcement and your reveal completely pointless.

If you lied about it, we'd yeet the person you said was guilty and find out they are scum, and we'd just yeet you tomorrow. If you fake-claimed as an investigative role and bussed your teammate to look legit, the actual investigative role would see a red flag and immediately check you, and you'd once again be hosed but now with 1 fewer teammate also, so that makes it an even DUMBER play. So the only logical conclusion here was that you were telling the truth.

I think scum were aware of this on some level but were hoping that I wouldn't go through all of this and say it all, but at this point I would be highly suspicious of anyone who tried to insert a whole bunch of pretty much anything between your initial announcement and what you said just now.

So I guess that's actually why I'm a bit confused why you think both OOO and myself reacted "well" or whatever word you choose here. Why do you say that, Hu Tao?

The only people who reacted accordingly were me and Oats (forgive me if i forgot someone else).
There was no reason for Hu Tao to out the result (or no result) until later.

Frankly, scum, you are total morons for choosing ME as your target right now. Are you not following how bad my reads are? How I keep on telling you how bad I am at this game? Why would you not want me at the end of the game and keep me on the final day when I can keep my idiotic streak going? You are totally blowing it here lol. Pretty much everyone here is a lot better at this than I am and you are completely fucking yourselves over by removing me from the game. You want to keep the people with thousands and thousands of posts on this site instead and think they'll be easier to play in end game? lol the hell are you thinking here...

AtE.

Are you really scumreading Hu Toa for this? Like really fucking really????

You really, really need to stop being so fucking intolerant of people coming to a different conclusion from you.

And this will be the last time I talk to you, unless you apologize and shape the fuck up. I'm going to switch gears now and explain why it is that your personality and your attitude are making this game so difficult for me, probably for Luca also.

When you take this kind of attitude towards people like this, they don't want to talk to you. You're being toxic. You're making me upset. You're real-life stressing me out with how incredibly toxic you are towards me, like I am constantly afraid of saying anything in this game, trying to give a read, without you just completely fucking blowing up in my face over it.

You and your buddies here seem to have some connection with each other that I'm not a part of, and pretty much all of you seem totally satisfied with just beating me up as much as you can. I can't make a counterpoint to Darth without him making some snide comment about how he thinks I'm trying to one-up him. I can't theorize about Vivax without him telling me he's literally laughing out loud at me and how dumb I am. And Oats is just champing at the bit to shit all over anyone. I hate talking to any of you. I fucking HATE it. I can't stress that enough. It is a horrible experience talking to fucking any of you about anything.

I'm asking you to stop and to treat me like a fucking human being, and I will NOT ask again. I'm really fucking sick of this shit. Dial it the fuck down. Now.

Blaming me for more soft stuff she just said... lol ^^

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Luca hasn‘t even properly read the post ooo quoted I think.

She said one two three mafia could be on it. Picked out three names (DP, Oats, OoO) and wrote about them.

That‘s not looking suspiciously at a wagon you were supporting,

that‘s saying only mafia would have yeeted Dunn.

That's not correct and makes no sense, as town have to be on the wagon for it to go through in the first place.

And so what if she picked out three names? They were the three votes that stood out to her as being potentially scummy for the reasons stated. I really don't see the problem here.

The problem here is she is using arbitary reasoning to come to an arbitary list of people "from where to go on".
It's not natural to pick a list of names that agreed with you on a yeet.

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Like it is natural to say "i suspect ABC for these reasons".
It's not natural to say "we yeeted X and ABCDE voted late so for those reasons i suspect ABC".

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Like it is natural to say "i suspect ABC for these reasons".
It's not natural to say "we yeeted X and ABCDE voted late so for those reasons i suspect ABC".

She doesn't suspect people just for voting late, though. And it's not like she has been using voting late other than as an initial hypothesis.

Do you not think Ninja's general play has been townie this game? A few have commented on how you tend to get hyper-focused and perhaps tunnelled on specific points, and i've experienced it this game myself. i just don't want a 1v1 to the death battle between two players who I'm pretty sure are town.

That's why she created the group she went looking into. It makes no sense to create such a group when she was all in yeeting Dunn.
I don't care if her play has been townie or not in general. Most of the time mafia say townie things.

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im gonna hammer myself.

do it rn!!

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yea im not gonna sit here and go over the same thing over and over, handholding people.

How about you guys make some reads and have confience you can find the answers with the info we cureently have

How can you find this so uninteresting when i am literally making a case on your apparent top scumread?

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Fair. I'm not voting ninja, but I could vote oats. I'll think it over and be back later

Why is this?

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Why is ninja your top townread 1?
Just to make sure you have to help up to your words when she flips mafia.

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I cant find much in your ISO other than that she had a 100% different approach to your fake claim, and you read both of us town for it, that makes not much sense in itself.

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Also i am pretty sure she has softed and investigative role.

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an*

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I say exactly what i want to say.

Palmar.

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Why did he exactly did he teach me wrong?

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I didded a double did ^_^

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I mean like.. I simply cannot understand how he goes from point A (post 3289) to point B (3551), since everything Vivax does between that time fits perfectly "in his own world". The only thing where he differs from the path he is pushing, is when he votes for gob, but that should not be a scumtell for Dann, since Dann at the time (and still) thinks gob is mafia. The fact that Vivax thinks Oats is town shouldn't matter to Dann either, because it hasn't been a problem for him at the time of post 3289.

I understand some people are calling Vivax mafia, because nothing he says makes sense. But that should not be an issue for Dann, because for him it was a reason to townread Vivax. It's very likely Dann is actually mafia based on just this read that changes for no apparent reason.

I have a hard time believing someone actually believes either Luca or I can be teamed with DP based on our interactions with each other - that's all

Me neither. You did townread Vivax for that though, because you found it too silly to entertain as mafia, as per your own words.

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Like do you want me to quote posts or what? You literally said that!!

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I don't know how to deal with me flipping my reads with you TL guys

you explain it!
that's how you do it.

you have to realise we play 48hr day phases, every single irregularity is scrutinized. here we have like 7 days and you guys still do that shit where you post like 10000 words and not explain anything at all (mainly you and ninja, i dont hold luca to this since he sure as hell explains where he is coming from, legit or not).
if you dont have an explanation, you die.

what is your explanation, besides "i flipped my read"?
or is it only that?

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like, what do you think the scum motivation is for me flipping my read on Vivax?

or do you just think i forgot what it was

people are assuming oats is mafia, people are saying vivax makes sense as mafia with oats.

indirect way of calling oats scum, or getting it into people's heads.

not saying this is WHY, but saying there is scum motivation.

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I thought about Vivax more and specifically when he started saying I could be teamed with DP, that struck me as just a line too far. It made me think that maybe instead of him just being a townie in his own world, the teams are more made up to try to mimic that because that just seemed like a bridge too far

he pushed this idea when you were still townreading him.

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I thought about Vivax more and specifically when he started saying I could be teamed with DP, that struck me as just a line too far. It made me think that maybe instead of him just being a townie in his own world, the teams are more made up to try to mimic that because that just seemed like a bridge too far

he pushed this idea when you were still townreading him.

You said in your post 3289, that you townread Vivax for "being in his own world that doesnt make sense to anyone else".
He back then read Luca mafia, with you, DP and Grack (2 of these).

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vivax / oats is a team that makes some kind of sense

vivax's arguments about the wagon compositions and wagon speeds feels super contrived

i felt the same about 2687

i also think this is true

I think Vivax' wagon analysis is fine, especially in his world.

Now how do you find Ninja's wagon analysis from D1?

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i thought he town read me before then tbh

well he did not, maybe before before, but not at the time you made that townread post on him. he had just posted in last 100 posts to say mafia is luca and dp/dann/grack.

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why doesnt it make her scum?
why does a townie say something she said?

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i was looking at vivax's reads in 3253 when i town read him, it looks like he town reads me based on that, and there's not indication that he thought i was scum with DP

if i did miss something beyond this, I will fully admit I've been skimming * a lot * this day phase

You are right actually, i made a mistake. that invalidates a whole lot of my case against you.

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I think i have around 10 mins before i gotta go for a while.
Dann talk to me, i dont think Oats is mafia.
I think Ninja is mafia, i thing gob is mafia, but based on Ninja's posts i am not lying i go 1v1 here right now.

What am i missing, if you think Oats and Vivax are mafia?

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Oats made a lot of good posts today and i think they were brushed off because he is "abrasive and toxic and what the ever shit" imo.
People smart as Luca and Ninja should have realised there are good points, but only DP saw that.

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i messed up the quotes but Oats has made many insightful posts today.

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quoting is so hard on this forum

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Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

Yes, Dann is town, and I'm starting to think Darth might be as well based on his recent play.

So Luca flips back onto dann is town without referencing his previous “fears” about dann as soon as dann stops pushing Luca. It seems to me that Luca realizes that he can easily get off of darth here, I’m really baffled at how he’s so confident in dp being mafia before he’s willing to completely tank the game by saying yeet dp and if dp is town yeet Luca if Luca is town but now he’s like nah I’m good based on “recent” posting

this is very good for instance. not necessarily right but good.

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There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your understanding of exactly what I mean when I say that Luca is scummy because he seems to be frustrated with his scum read and that darth isn’t scummy because he is frustrated with the way that Luca is acting which has nothing to do with the fact that he scumreads Luca.

If you scumread someone, you don’t have the same expectations of them than someone you townread, therefore it doesn’t make sense for you to have the same sort of conversations with them as you do townreads, mostly having to do with trying to convince people that someone else is mafia.

I think the better question is what are your thoughts on me? Without the snark for once please

Scummy. Not sure what you are referring to re snark

Okay why am I scummy?

I don’t think that you are being very clear with where your reads are at and I think that’s very intentional to avoid getting pressure when you go to vote/push someone.

I also don’t see the follow up I would expect from someone trying to figure out the game, instead it just seems like pop in, scatter some posts that are relevant and then move on.

I don’t really understand why ninja is scumreading me for holding onto a view that she doesn’t agree with but is in turn holding onto a view that nobody else agrees with and that’s somehow fine? I’m referring to not realizing that naeyrs did that whole thing about the night kills.

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Most of you turned all that shit into scummy just because Oats is abrasive....
Which isn't even true after Oats/Roden up to any standards.

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Pushing someone independently or not does not mean anything.
Sheeping when it's the right thing to do is just good a skill as is pushing your scumread.

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I'd feel a lot better about him if you could point to some independent pushes he's made probably

Should i fell like youre mafia just because you havent pushed anyone independently during D2?

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I kind of am tbh lol

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Ooo can you talk about vivax for a bit

sure

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are we talking or not?

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Well Vivax goes out with DMB afaik. He lives in Austria afaik. He is a pretty chill guy usually (i have talked with him outside of games, yet it has been a long time), but in mafia games he gets super set on some bullshit noone understands, and he likes to call me mafia. <3

I talked about Vivax, now what?

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are we talking or not?

He asked you to talk about it. Bit of a scummy play from you OoO. here

Are you literally just so dense man?

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Bit of scummy to not follow up on that gob.

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are we talking or not?

I got busy sorry,
So I kinda skimmed a couple of vivax games on TL and he was much more coherent there, regardless of alignment. Is that something that you noticed too and what do you think that means for his alignment

I dont know how "he is more coherent regardless of alignment in TL games".
I read him by what he writes, just as i read anyone else in this game.

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Where does this sudden Vivax is mafia come from Oats?

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Dann's take in post 3289 on Vivax is a fairly decent approach.
Dp, regardless of mafia or town, has a legit read on Vivax.
If you believe i am town (or at least one of us, me or DP), you can trust both of us read on him is legit.

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Basically i would say over 90% of the time Vivax is town.

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I have to sleep, i got to get up 5hrs from now and i cant play tomorrow as i am gonna have a work trip to another city to check some shit other people did...
Dont yeet anyone pls. But vote for Ninja.

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We had plenty of tells. The issue was people posted way too much bullshit going down made-up rabbit holes.

Obvious teams become impossible teams when you overthink things. And overthinking = thinking anything other than your first surface level thought.


Anyway my big tell as mafia early on is inconsistency in reads i think. Im quicker to drop reads/pushes when im scum.

Later on in the game its lack of caring about the gamestate

We should just have yeeted people who posted stupid shit.

And town should have goven me time to react to fake claim. I got DP from there too. No chance i would have gotten HT before i died (unless yeet for stupid fake claim -- i just didnt consider mafia does that).

wp scum!! It was nice to play, esp with Luca and Dann. Damn Luca you have some real capabilities of arguing your point, not many people have that. Huge props!!

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It was nice talks Vivax.
It was vad but still nice (prolly i got too drunk).

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Actually 18 players is a lot

Do games over there usually have as many posts as this game?

Yes. Me/DP/marv alone will top this games post count by D3.