Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[RedCoyote]

I'm confirming that I understand my role and win condition.

[RedCoyote]

1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1) Like AGar, it's all out of whack thanks to my work. I do really try to post once every 24 hours though.
2) Wiki
3) Answer 1.

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I agree 100% with EA's post 64.

Vote: theplague42

Nothing else really pops out at me. ICE, EA, and AGar have begun to lay the foundation for townreads.

[RedCoyote]

My vote just gets more and more justified.

Wait, no, he replaced out of the other game he was in too, apparently. My mistake. But it doesn't detract from his earlier scumminess.

This is a silly premise to begin with.

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I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

I get the same impression.

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Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

You're dodging the point though. EA has been the first voter, so your accusations that he is looking for "quick-wagons" is unwarranted.

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That is a FACT. It is normal for townies to have two FoS's out. That is a FACT.

Your blowing this issue out of proportion multiple times looks desperate.

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No, I didn't. I said that you're trying to create town-on-town arguments. I never said that you were a part of those arguments. You're trying to get people to attack each other by making it seem like everyone is suspicious.

There's a thin line between what you're saying here and what an ideal VT should be trying to do, imo. Why are you so sure that EA is causing townies to argue with other townies?

[RedCoyote]

Why is everyone bailing? Ythan isn't

that

bad.

[RedCoyote]

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

When you say "ignoring", what do you mean? You don't believe him or you aren't prepared to say whether you believe him or not?

this seems a bit scummy from penpen/ bit too "defensively aggressive" if you know what i mean. Its good for town to take initiative. We need a lynch.

Good point.

That could judt be his meta tho.

Definitely his style. I mean, I wouldn't characterize him that way, but he doesn't let people slip by over experience/meta.

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He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

I wish you would drop this, AGar. There's nothing here.

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Mozamis comments on the miller claim seem contradictory.

I noticed this too, and I'm glad you pointed it out.

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and anyway, why dont people like seperat eposts ? i find short, analytical posts much more digestible and informative than long waffly posts.

It's not really a big deal (Ythan has been doing the same thing), but it does inflate the game's post count unnecessarily. This makes the game look longer, gives us more distance between vote counts, and just generally makes it more of a chore logistically.

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I understood what he said about EA and I can definitely see that coming from a town player. I don't want to go into too much detail about it because I don't want to make his defense for him. I have an even read at the moment and I don't think leaving my vote on him will accomplish anything.

This is very town sounding, so much so that I felt the need to actually quote it and tell you that. Don't let me forget I said this, NE. I'm feeling pretty good about a lot of people so far. ICE, AGar, EA, NE, Ythan, Mae, and Exilon all seem like they're on the up and up. plague (Space Pope) is still the best wagon around right now. I wouldn't criticize the moz wagon either. Mae is right to pressure Klazam a bit. These three players (and possibly Fatso) could all use attention right now.

[RedCoyote]

Red, what do you think about my post regarding moz, and the points I made regarding him? Your quotes regarding him in post 186 just seem...wrong...somehow. I'm having a difficult time putting it in to words. You pat him on the back for making a "good point", you thank Exilion for bringing up a point about his contradiction, and give a very gentle endorsement to the moz "wagon", which was only my vote at the point in time.

ICE, some of the stuff you touched on is good, but some of it seems null to me. You're good to show that moz could be distancing with EA, but I don't really think moz is "painting AGar as scummy for no reason". Overall it's about a wash. I didn't feel most of it warranted a separate discussion. Was there a specific point or points you'd like my opinion on?

I think moz has a good point about penpen. I don't remember penpen saying that, and I'm glad he pointed it out.

Once Exilon put moz's weird miller stance into perspective (I had already thought it was odd, but Exilon kind of made it look more scummy than odd), I didn't feel as good about moz.

In regards to the wagon comment, that was me writing too fast and using the wrong word. Should be "a wagon" not "the wagon".

[RedCoyote]

Penpen- Fluff. Though he replaced out early, I'm not holding this too much against the slot.

Budja- Intro post is scummy. Takes the player who is at the forefront of attention, calls his actions that others find scummy, as town tells.

Vote: Budja

I would like to hear more from you than this. Why are you just commenting on these specific two people? Where are you coming from that you thought this was the only thing worth pointing out? This is just such an odd starting post for a replacement (and, let's face it, it's your first real post). Like NE brings up, it's strange that you have two strong scum reads but only talk about one of them.

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It's a pressure vote, granted, but hopefully it'll bring something of him.

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I don't like NE's recent vote. Voting someone for not posting, when they say they will by x and x hasn't came yet. Seems like an opportunistic vote.

Exilon is worse, but, yeah, there's no reason for those votes. They are both lame. Mae was reasonable, but Exilon and NE both came off like, "Yeah, I could vote a suspect, but I'd rather hide under the radar."

[RedCoyote]

Fucking IDIOTS. I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM YET. ANYONE WHO IS CERTAIN IS A DICKWAD OR SCUM.
USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS.
Peace and love

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

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Maemuki, you've been lacking a bit on the insight/analysis department, parroting a bit, (no matter if you're conscious or not, the point is there isn't much original content) and a bit of gut.

I don't know about this. It seems like you were "parroting" her at times (Klazam vote).

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I did suspect Klazam at the time and I gave reasons for that suspicion. Is there something wrong with those reasons?

He's been absent throughout the game so far, and has only showed up after people started talking about him. fatso is about even with Klazam, IMO, but he is getting replaced, so he can wait.

Kind of crappy reasons if you ask me. I don't think Klazam is (was) lurking with scum intentions anyways.

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Looks to me like moz is giving a lot of excuses about why he doesn't have any scum reads instead of reading the game to get scum reads. Seems like it would be easy enough to pick through the MANY cases made to find someone who either makes a convincing case or someone who makes a terrible case. The former should give you a scum read on the casee, and the latter should give you a scum read on the caser.

Too bad all you seem to care about is explaining why you don't have any scum reads, explaining why you've been useless to town, and seem to be trying to get out of doing it.

Agreed.

[RedCoyote]

RC's is equally bad to me because of the part where RC says that Moz's unhelpfulness makes him useless in this game, regardless of his alignment. I disagree. A townie is a townie is a townie. It does not matter what the posting is, if moz is a townie, he is useful by simple virtue of numerical advantage.

In a perfect world the town will start off with a scum flip and rejoice going into the night, but in reality this sort of thing rarely happens. D1 just doesn't often lead to very convincing arguments. It's all a bunch of interpretations until we can actually start seeing some flips.

That being said, of course you want to aim to lynch scum at all times. I just so happen to think that moz is the best shot at this right now. Him being an anti-town player just makes it an easier pill for those that may not necessarily see him as the most scummy to swallow. If not moz, I'm still happy with taking out SP based on theplauge's questionable arguments. I may be convinced on rat, but I'm having a hard time isolating anything substantial against him and not just lurker-oriented.

Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

[RedCoyote]

Vote: Klazam

Even if he is just a Miller, it's a good political tactic to just use a lynch on him now. Assuming we have a Cop, coupled with the fact that there's probably a Vigilante out there, that should cover some 4 or 5 people by investigation, PR, or likely townie given the moz wagon. At that point the lynch will probably be narrowed down to some 4 people or so.

I do not support a massclaim today. Tomorrow, on the other hand, it would probably be a good idea.

[RedCoyote]

I mean like, given the flips we've just had, we can afford to mislynch a Miller. I'd argue it's good policy to lynch a role like that because if we have any sort of investigative role he won't have to worry about your slot.

[RedCoyote]

Attacking me over the way I worded my confirmation post is a bit of a stretch, Klazam.

[RedCoyote]

Yes, I support a mass claim. SP, keep your pants on. Didn't you already claim anyways?

[RedCoyote]

VT.

Been a little busy with Spring Break stuff, but I'll probably post later tonight.

Whoever is next on the Mod's first post list can go.

[RedCoyote]

I did pick someone; I picked whomever was next on the list.

I hadn't read over the last page or so, so I didn't want to pick someone to claim who had already claimed. Ythan, you're actually up because SP has already claimed here.

[RedCoyote]

I wouldn't put it by ICE to be overly cautious. That seems in character for him in the playstyle sense. Besides, the feelings of suspicion aren't mutual. ICE seemed a little excessive earlier, but that totally fits with a Cop claim and his investigation of me, I think. Never really felt any suspicion from Ythan, AGar, Mae, or NE, and I've wanted an SP lynch since, what, page 4 or 5?

On top of that, SP's rushed claim seemed really odd to me. It would kind of fit, actually if

he

was a Godfather role. He tried to get his VT claim out there in a rush to entice the supposed Cop, knowing both that the Cop would not want to investigate a PR and that his role slot was one of the more controversial. In other words, it's like he was trying every subtle thing he could to get that investigation.

Anyways, I'll do the honors.

Unvote

;

vote: Space Pope

[RedCoyote]

Oh, yeah, so he did. Heh.

[RedCoyote]

ITT: Ythan makes one last effort to get us to believe ICE is lying to us.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, Ythan.

I mean, immediately AGar is my pick. I said it before, ICE is taking his role very seriously. He sounds like a cop and has sounded like a cop since the beginning of this game. Everything he told us to back his story up makes complete sense. I think the question here is going to be between me and AGar unless AGar really shows me something impressive. Give me a minute to look over AGar again.

[RedCoyote]

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

VOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: Erratus Apathos

This was always a silly argument. I let it slide too much when it was originally made because, heck, it's the early part of D1. AGar could've been trying to get EA to react to him a little bit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt despite not liking this argument very much. Let's look into it a little more deeply:

I wish you would drop this, AGar. There's nothing here.

When AGar continues to use the same silly argument against EA going into page 8 is when I start to get annoyed with him. This is me telling AGar that there's nothing here. This is what I felt all along essentially. I don't think I ever once saw EA as scummy, and said, on at least two occasions, that he was rather townie.

I'm not slamming AGar for being wrong on EA, I'm slamming him for carrying out a tired, broken argument long past its welcome. Do you want to know why AGar was pushing EA for crap so hard going on ten pages during the game? Because his partner penpen/Budja was getting more and more pressure by the page. Check it out:

I like the way NE took initiative.

who cares about initiative when its bullshit.

As you can see here that agar brought this to light:

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

This is a connection you can take to the bank, ICE.

AGar later criticizes the penpen/Budja/rat role slot twice (here and here), but these are vague threats that remain unacted on until the slot dies. In other words, this is mostly some light distancing as the scumteam resigned to the fact that moz was going to take the first lynch.

That's about all I found worth bringing up, but I think it's good stuff to be said. To preemptively defend myself given that ICE was always sketchy about me and AGar will likely come after me, let me make a few points.

ICE, EA, and AGar have begun to lay the foundation for townreads.

I'm quoting this because I want you both to recognize that both of you have always been fairly stable townreads for me. This isn't too important in AGar's case, obviously, but I've said it once or twice, ICE, that I've consistentally seen you as town. This was long before you claimed. Of course a Godfather would have an incentive to befriend a Cop, but I just want to note that your claim didn't all of a sudden get me to say, "Oh, yeah, and ICE is definitely town!" AGar, on the other hand, never commented on what alignment he thought ICE was until D4 when he voted Ythan (implying that he saw no reason to not trust ICE's claim).

ICE, AGar, EA, NE, Ythan, Mae, and Exilon all seem like they're on the up and up. plague (Space Pope) is still the best wagon around right now. I wouldn't criticize the moz wagon either.

I didn't talk about the penpen/Budja/rat slot because I was still rather neutral there. I wanted people to help me with a read on him. I was seeing him as slight town for essentially the entire D1, but I recognized the case on him. That's important to note because I asked for more spotlight on this role slot whereas AGar tried to keep the discussion centered on EA and then moz.

I may be convinced on rat, but I'm having a hard time isolating anything substantial against him and not just lurker-oriented.

Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

This is just more evidence of what I just said. At this point I was warming up to scumpenpen/Budja/rat, I just wanted more from him to analyze. Had rat not been shot, I was building toward this the next day.

[RedCoyote]

So... RC's case against me boils down to... actually nothing?

I'd hardly call penpen's not-so-subtle "Wow, AGar is so smart" post nothing. This, coupled with that sorry excuse for a push on EA, which, admittedly, was okay at first, until you went overboard with it to clearly try and keep penpen/Budja/rat alive (even ICE, at this point, saw that you were just swinging BS), clearly separates our D1 motivations.

You, on the other hand, didn't acknowledge them at all aside from calling them a lurker-lynch and ignored them until they flipped.

Not all of us have the advantage of knowing which arguments are solid and which are BS. The argument against then Budja, for example, was solid. The argument against EA, for example, was BS. I called out the latter, but I wasn't prepared to rule on the former. I wanted more information. penpen/Budja/rat were lurking at the time. You said it yourself that they weren't giving reads.

On D1, when voting for Mozamis, you made sure to highlight that it wasn't a definite vote for scum, but rather distressed town OR panicked scum. Basically you didn't buy into the wagon, but you knew opposing it would look terrible?

Oh, no. I was back and forth on moz until he started getting super emotional and angsty. At that point I knew either he was making some desparate manipulation attempts or he was a poor, unhelpful townie. I was very clear about my townreads at that point in the game, and I had fair townreads on everyone except for rat, moz, SP, and SV. That's on record. I wasn't prepared to vote SV or rat at that point given that I felt they were lurking too much. That's on record. My vote, at that point, was only going to be on one of those two people. I made this clear multiple times.

Of course it wasn't a definite vote for scum. I honestly was half prepared for moz to flip town. That's just what happens on D1 extremely often. The town has no flips to work off of, no night actions or investigations, and a fresh scum team perfectly capable of creating plenty of misdirection. Scum lynches on D1 are just one of those really rare things that you'd be naive to expect. That's why my policy is that you aim for scum, certainly, but if you take out a clear anti-town element, then, hey, at least it's not a total loss.

You've semi-lurked and made it hard for anything to be gleaned from your posting since D1. You proposed the Klazam lynch, which was fine, but everything you've said so far is something that was already brought up at some point, and the first time you've actively attempted to make any real contributions to this game is now.

Unfortunately my Spring Break week fell during the middle of D3. I was out of town and not checking the thread as often as normal. There was nothing really for me to say during D4. That was essentially a policy lynch. Had ICE have beaten me to the thread I'd have voted based on his results.

Heck, you're hardly even in a position to make this argument. We effectively have the same number of posts. Especially considering that you have two confirmation posts and an RVS vote. So if you literally want to count posts it would be 25 vs 21 actual posts.

You slid an (admittedly) easy Klazam lynch by, justifying it based more on the N1 flips and his miller claim than any behavior.

That was a solid, worthwhile lynch that needed to happen. Anyone who screws up a claim, one, two, is a supposed Miller in a game that has a Godfather and a Cop, and three, is still living with two scum down, should eat a lynch. I took full responsibility for that lynch and I don't think you have any evidence that says otherwise.

you've tried to fly completely under the radar, trying not to do anything that would attract the vig-bullet to yourself.

I had a townread on Exilon long before he claimed Vig, just like I did on ICE. I was neither trying to entice an investigation nor skirt a shot. You can say neither of these things about yourself that I can tell. You're far more guilty of this than I am.

Vote: AGar

[RedCoyote]

That was fun though. I'm glad ICE hammered because I didn't want to keep going with a wall war. Good job, AGar! And the rest of the team.

gg everyone, and thanks especially to the Mod. You did a wonderful job.

[RedCoyote]

I mean it! This game was short, but it was fun. It was really exhilarating to get the double scumkill at least.

Gosh, you know, I love Mafia so much. I just wish I wasn't so bad at it. XD