Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[GreyICE]

Okay, whose scum?

Besides Fate I mean.

Also I was scared that someone suggested a Fate/VasudeVa scumteam. Not that I don't want to see such a thing mind you, but one thread does not have room for all the busses.

But then it turned out to be Vigilante Ventriloquist. AGM WHAT IS GOING ON HERE

[GreyICE]

Fate's fucking town. Get off his ass.

[GreyICE]

Jesus Christ do I have to do everything for you people?

Vote: VP Baltar

Morons

[GreyICE]

Seriously. I want his neck in the gibbit by the time I get back to this thread.

If anyone has a reason not to it better start "he claimed one of the power roles and hasn't been counterclaimed" because every other reason involves me laughing at you for several minutes.

[GreyICE]

Dude you're fucking town.

I have no idea what's going on, but shut up.

[GreyICE]

Vote VP Batalar. He's definitely scum.

[GreyICE]

VP
BALTAR
KILL HIM
GODDAMN IT

[GreyICE]

And you don't spew WIFOM
Basically everything you wrote confirmed every read you have.
You like putting the poison in the glass in front of people. Because most people are stupid enough to just reach out and take it. Those that aren't you can WIFOM into thinking that you think they'll take the glass away from them.

[GreyICE]

In all seriousness...there is a lot of scum fuckery happening today. I believe there is a scum being wagoned here and that's why we are not making any progress. If both RC and Concission were townies, then the scum would just pile on and end the day. 1v1 reveals scum yet again due to scum stalling and bullshittery. We definitely need to lynch out of these two today.

whoops...don't hit sumbit on accident
...have Glados shoot someone that isn't on the guillotine? He'll be dead after tonight most likely, so why not have him take a crack at thinning the herd more and possibly hitting a mafioso (since Sim is most likely town).

Vote: concission

I'm ok with a shadow lynch...but why are we letting AGM scum off the hook exactly?
I do think Jarti's point is valid. I seem to recall Ythill pointing out yesterday that SD was on every single major wagon that happened.

I'm just more confident on AGM. I do agree that SD looks terrible with his vote, but really everything AGM does looks terrible. I don't like the fact that he gets to L-1 and his wagon is just poof gone. If people are dead set on SD today, then I will compromise and help lynch there. I honestly think they are partners though, so lynching AGM would bring me a personal satisfaction. But you are probably right that if that's the case than I am making a fuss about nothing and I'm probably just letting my ego get in the way.
Also, regarding Concission, if I am right about AGM-SD, then it's probably less likely she is scum.

Do I have to draw you motherfuckers a motherfucking map?

[GreyICE]

I'm going to blame
the delayed flip
because normally
Anyone posting this after a scumflip
would be dead

[GreyICE]

I'm just more confident on AGM. I do agree that SD looks terrible with his vote, but really everything AGM does looks terrible. I don't like the fact that he gets to L-1 and his wagon is just poof gone. If people are dead set on SD today, then I will compromise and help lynch there. I honestly think they are partners though, so lynching AGM would bring me a personal satisfaction. But you are probably right that if that's the case than I am making a fuss about nothing and I'm probably just letting my ego get in the way.
Also, regarding Concission, if I am right about AGM-SD, then it's probably less likely she is scum.

Lets just keep posting this post until you confess and self hammer.

[GreyICE]

How about
We lynch
VP Baltar

He's fucking obvious

[GreyICE]

Fate.
VP is buddying you because he knows you have a plan.
I'm calling you an idiot because your plan is fucking stupid. Capiche?

[GreyICE]

Let's be honest, did you even read this game ICE?

Meh enough of it.
Mostly looked at people opposing the role cop wagon.
You were HORRIBLY scummy.
Good enough place for me to start.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, that's what I thought. You didn't.

QQ ICE CAUGHT ME EVEN THOUGH HE SHOULDN'T HAVE

[GreyICE]

How about I get you lynched instead, and then find your partner?

[GreyICE]

lol, give it your best shot.

I like how you don't even have a second suspect at all. You certainly are putting effort into the game and proving me wrong.

Nope. I don't even have any proof Equinox isn't your buddy.

I'll worry about finding buddies when I know they're town. For now, you're a very, very strong scumread, and I want you lynched.

[GreyICE]

Because you're asking to die, duh.

You want tomorrow to be a big production where you get to lead the town to the last scum (or two scum, if Equinox flips town), set everything up, have us follow you around, then die and be confirmed town.

None of your plans as scum ever involve you dying.

[GreyICE]

Nonsense. There's 8(9) people alive.

Even if we chose to sheep your reads tomorrow, you'd at best get 1 mislynch. So that's 2 NKs, and 1 mislynch. Leaving 4(5) players left. Who would you trust as your scumbuddy to get you through this? Chesskid? RedCoyote? Oh maybe AGM, he's never been obvious.

Hell, even if I bought that WIFOM, the only person you'd trust enough would be VP Baltar. And he's obvscum anyway, you'd be crazy to think that this thread would miss that.

[GreyICE]

Oh gimme a break. I almost feel like lynching you for having a plan this bad and then proceeding to ignore everything you post tomorrow, but VP Baltar is sitting RIGHT THERE telling me how bad I am at this game. Let me make a nice big case, kill him, then you can tell us who the big ol' scumbag that you have pegged for number 3 is (since I'm guessing you have bad feelings about the Equinox flip).

[GreyICE]

Wait a sec.

This just in, when GreyICE is calling me TOWN and reading me RIGHT he's scum!

Normally he just spams the thread like a fucktard with CRAP reads!

Unvote:
Vote: GREYICE

I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING UP WITH JARTI

DIE FUCKER DIE

Shut up and stop smoking the good stuff.

I read you right all the time. Walking dead (okay, not for a bit, but Walking dead was a clusterfuck), MPM, etc.

I'm town you annoying twit, and you know VP is scum.

Stop trying to annoy me into implementing your 'master plan.'

[GreyICE]

I'd enjoy it if you read me right like half the time. I think you have this suspicion one game I'm finally going to be scum and you'll be town and you'll trust me, and then you'll lose, so you lynch me on general principle

[GreyICE]

And no, I don't have any fear of losing to GREYSCUM. You're easy as hell to catch.

Yeah, 'cause you try and lynch me EVERY GAME WE'RE IN

[GreyICE]

Now vote VP Baltar, we both know he's scum, and we can fucking actually do something here.

[GreyICE]

Vote VP
Unicorn Brethran's head in a bag.

Seriously, I'll have a second scumread.
When I know equinox's alignment.

That'll tell me a lot.

[GreyICE]

Why VP Baltar Deserves to be Eaten by Angry Weasels on Steroids

A short case history

Scumreads:

zoraster and AGM, with the latter being the worst of the two.
Then there are a lot of middling people like Jarti and Fate who I would suspect if things were not cleaned up after you three.

One of the first mentions of Shadow Dancer:

hint: Ythill had terrible reads this game.
Anyhow, no one is giving him a pass for anything. I just don't think he makes sense as a lynch candidate today.
People who do make sense are Concission, RC, AGM and ShadowDancer.

@AGM - I would say my read on zoraster is more middle of the road null at this point. He's delivered some content that I like, but I don't like the way he hasn't been here much, is trying to dictate what lynch is or is not viable today and then disappears again for more V/la. Thread needs a lot more zoraster so I can form an opinion that isn't easily swayed. Now you can answer my questions instead of dodging them.

Unvote, Vote:AGM

Mentioned Questions:

VPB keeps saying that both zoraster and I are scum

lol, seriously? I had that feeling at the start of the day today, which I amended shortly after. Looking at my iso, there are only two posts where I linked you and that was short lived. Do tell where I 'keep' saying it though, considering that your big ass theory above hinges on it.

Hmmmmmm...

Why have you been on my ass so much today if I'm a strong town read SD? Also, what do you mean by erratic?

Stop clumsy distancing me you idiot.

The answer:

Why have you been on my ass so much today if I'm a strong town read SD? Also, what do you mean by erratic?

"Erratic" as "highly prone to error" (another bad choice of words, I gues :/ )... And if been on your arse because you did something highly scummy or rather highly idiotic as I cannot help myself but to feel... And that's what I was going to determine...

VP never mentions this answer again, despite, how shall we put this? OH YEAH IT SUCKING A GIANT LLAMA COCK.

HE NEVER EVER FOLLOWS UP

Shadow Dancer CLEARLY has no idea how to answer this question. Why? It comes from a scumbuddy. VP decides not to pay attention to it.

By the end he's nearly pleading:

That's fine...but also irrelevant. (also it has nothing to do with posting style, I know for a fact what the main account is)

The point is that he will be choosing between AGM and SD to lynch. He is a good scumhunter (regardless of role-claiming choices) and therefore is more likely to pick scum out of the two of them in the off-chance that they are not both scum.

I'm ok with a shadow lynch...but why are we letting AGM scum off the hook exactly?
I do think Jarti's point is valid. I seem to recall Ythill pointing out yesterday that SD was on every single major wagon that happened.

PLEASE LYNCH AGM OVER MY BUDDY.

Oh and you know what fucking damns him?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2781187

oh, trust me, I feel you. I hate those arguments too. I'm just trying to find out if AT is actually scum or simply a stubborn ass noob that is clutching to a bad argument out of pride.

plus we have lots of time left in the day.

He does a question and answer session with Anti-Town. Because it's pro-town.

Number of Q&A sessions he does with Shadow Dancer?

ZERO

Despite him being one of the top wagons and a supposed scum suspect. He avoids interacting with him at all.

VP IS FUCKING OBVIOUS PEOPLE.
MY LORD DERAIL THIS LYNCH ON MY BUDDY

[GreyICE]

*that's what everything about that day says.

I'm good with enter.

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE
Second scum read and favorite unicorn color please

Also I'm about to lynch you for your avatar, you nimnut.

Change it to a different pokemon. I suggest Mudkips.

[GreyICE]

you mean it's normal?

Lets count em. Despite being the winning wagon on day 2, that VP Baltar ostenably thought was scum, here's how many interactions VP Baltar had with Shadow Dancer before the lynch:

Kinda defies the purpose, don't you think. If you asked him and only him specifically he'd of course think about the setup...

not necessarily

Don't try to push suspicion aside to Conc and RC now (knowing that I would even follw you).

WTF...what do you mean now? I've been saying this same thing since way back yesterday. I've wanted Concission lynched since I don't even know when. You think this is new?

If you were really that sure Sim was town you would not have hard core waggoned him and forced a claim but defended him pushed another waggon.

I hardcore waggoned him? Really? I suggest you go reread that section and check back with me if you still have that same opinion.

The Entire VT = town debate, which was pure theory speculation, and scummy:

Spoiler:

@Baltar: I am still not convinced of your answer. To help your memories.

This

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

Claim.

was your L-1 vote on Sim

You say you considered him townie and didn't like the waggon and just wanted to speed up the process so town could move on. Now tell me:
i.) What would be the townie motivation to demnand a claim and set some one, whom one considers to be town, on the bring of death?
ii.) Why did you not try harder to defend Sim?
iii.) How did a VT claim convince you to unvote? Even if you don't agree with the site policy of lynching claimed VTs you certainly knew about it (you pointed out something about blind wiki-followers or something like that) and hence you must have known the consequences of a claim. (Well, I guess this now basically loops back to i.)...)
iv.) Why wouldn't, in your opinion, scum just have claimed VT?

Fixed a broken quote tag. -mod

1) already answered
2) because I already stated that Ythill's wagoning method made no sense and people put their fingers in their ears. I was tired of the day and was trying to get it to the fastest conclusion possible instead of having an argument that people weren't going to listen to me on anyhow when they were just sheeping bad logic in the first place.
3) already answered
4) already answered

I'm really not trying to be a jerk SD, but I did answer those questions already. I'll do quotes later for you. I'm just a fairly busy dude and don't have time to be repeating myself most of the time.

I'll explain further on this one rather than just pointing you to the above bolded, even though I think it is self-evident. Essentially, scum have no incentive to claim VT in that case exactly because of the 'lynch VT site-meta' you are lambasting me about. This is an open game, so scum know exactly what roles are in play and what they need to do to get those roles out of play and gain the advantage. If Sim-scum claims VT there, 9 times out of 10 he's just going to get lynched anyway because that's how most towns role. So, he is going to benefit his team much more by claiming Tracker in that situation and attempting to out the real tracker. He may still get lynched, but he greatly improves the chances of his team winning the overall game by playing it that way. That is why scum, particularly a smart player like Simenon, never would have claimed VT in that situation.

I agree that it looks like a bus from SD, but a scum in hand is worth two on the gallows....or something like that. Killing AGM is a good idea.

Eh, SD is bussing his buddy, lets not lynch SD.


That was IT.

Nearly 150 posts, talking to pretty much the entire thread.

Except... Shadow Dancer.

The man who paused to ask questions to Anti-town, and constantly pushed AGM never had many real questions for SD, his #2 scuread - and the ones he did have were answered like total scummy garbage, and never commented on.

FUCKING NO

FUCKING LYNCH

[GreyICE]

If I had to choose probably VV. But VP is enormously obvious.

[GreyICE]

That's mainly off that weak soft defense up there btw. That was scummy as shit. But that's based on VP being his scumbuddy, and VP needs to die like yesterday.

[GreyICE]

Fate, RC and chesskid need to come vote LL so we can end this day.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

I don't have the patience at this point with this game. I think I've given all the cases a fair shake today, and Fate lynch just doesn't feel right to me in spite of the SD flip. We need to start organizing here.

p. edit - RC - I am willing to compromise on a Fate lynch today if absolutely necessary, but I really don't like it. Do you not see at all how LL or VV are scummy here?

ROFL

FATE WTF WHY AREN'T YOU VOTING HIM WITH ME?

YOU THINK I'M SCUM AND YOUR VOTE IS ON SOMEONE ELSE?

YOU CHEAP LITTLE JOKER, THAT WAS THE LAST AND FINAL SLIPUP.

YOU THINK ME SCUM? YOU FOLLOW YOUR ACCUSATION WITH YOUR VOTE.

[GreyICE]

Okay, so now I'm not scum, I'm back to not knowing what I'm doing.

It shows no pattern of trying to figure shadow's alignment out at all. You asked him one set of questions. The answers were so bad they were literally radioactive. You had no followup and never commented on them.

That's not trying to figure out someone's alignment at all. You didn't even have a followup to THIS answer:

Why have you been on my ass so much today if I'm a strong town read SD? Also, what do you mean by erratic?

"Erratic" as "highly prone to error" (another bad choice of words, I gues :/ )... And if been on your arse because you did something highly scummy or rather highly idiotic as I cannot help myself but to feel... And that's what I was going to determine...

Holy shit.

I've lynched people for less than that answer and the followup vote 20 minutes later:

So yeah... AGM was scummy scumscum, is scummy scumscum and remains scummy scumscum.

unvote. vote AGM

L-1 again

. If you still think that's so darn scummy then feel free to lynch me instead. But don't blame me then...

And you didn't even comment on either?

Hey VP, why not you start answering what I say, rather than scumplaining about how I won't get you lynched?

'cause you never made the least little attempt to determine Shadow's alignment. That one set of questions? He answered horribly, followed up with a scummy vote, and you did NOTHING to determine whether he was scum. You AVOIDED mentioning him from there on out.

[GreyICE]

If you think I'm scum. Vote for me. NOW

If you think I'm town. Answer me. NOW

Do not scumplain about my skill with this game anymore.

[GreyICE]

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

Doubtful I will responding to Grey's quote cherrypicking

unless someone who I believe to be town actually wants me to.

[GreyICE]

The answer is that I felt AGM more likely to be scum at that point. Had you read the game, you would have seen that. Yeah?

p. edit - that comment isn't about you. it's about other people in the game. ie, if LL wanted me to respond to you, I doubt I would. Quote this a million times so you don't forget.

The answer is that you made no attempt to determine whether Shadow was scum or town.

His answer to your questions was horrible. His vote he made half an hour later was horrible. Your response was...? Nothing.

You made no attempt to determine his alignment. The number of interactions you had with him the entire game can be counted on one hand.

It's scummy as shit.

I'm sure you're going to link me to someone else who doesn't particularly question anyone. Crypto, Fate, Zoraster. The thing is, they don't ask questions, period.

Why would scum bus?

If sd is scum Agm is not ALSO SCUM.

Which means RC scum would bus to have a manipulatable and dumbtownie AGM SO ENTRENCHED in his pocket, AGm would not even QUESTION his read on "MEANIE FATE AND VP WHO TRIED TO LYNCH ME DAY TWO FR SHIT PLAY ARE SCUMMMMMMMMMTEAMMMM"

Notice how he goes after YOU today not me. He's keeping AGM around* to misvote me at endgame, so he can't push me yet.

(*iif sd is scum and agm is town, not entirely sold bc id like to have SOME respect for agms reads as town.)

@VBP: Is what Concession did scummy?

Where's my vote at?

Isn't this a blatant misrep? The quote says Ythill is talking about timetables, but then the analysis says he was saying, "NEED TO LYNCH NOW" … which he said wasn't what he meant, right?

You're saying my quote was referencing Ythill as talking about timetables? I'm confused. Ythill was making a statement that I don't think was in accordance with his claimed desire to gather info. You can choose to accept his explanation or not. I think it was perfectly legitimate to pressure over, AND I also think you're ridiculous if you believe otherwise.[/spoiler]

NULL
<snip>
VP Baltar (Although I did think he was scum earlier, I'm putting him up here because there are people who are a lot scummier, and my ability to actually read him is limited)

I don't get this. You spent a good part of your post mentioning me, why you think I'm scummy and that people who think I'm town aren't doing enough to explain those reads....and then you say that you can't really read me. At least have the balls to call me scum if that's the way you want to go.

Why are you deleting the context from my post? Contextually, VPB said "concession is making mountains out of molehills." I said, "If anyone is doing that, it's you." Your question makes no sense given this back and forth.

I think what he's saying is that it was like 10 pages ago, find something more relevant to talk about. Which I agree with. I find it silly that people see a giant post and are calling you town for it because your previous effort was so bad. I think you should be talking about things that are much more relevant to the current state of the game.

The primary proponents of the VPB wagon were Ythill and Percy. I agreed with it; I know there were some others on it as well. here's what you have to say about them:

Well, you're one for two. Ythill I will give is actively pushing my terrible wagon. Concission and you are/were both riding old ass votes that you can't hardly defend, and Percy hasn't made a meaningful post in days due to illness. I find it pretty ludicrous that I'm the leading wagon due to THAT.

You have me as a high scumread. Are there reasons other than this?

The main reason you're on my scumlist is similar as to why I'm voting Simenon...playing the game from the sidelines. As the day has thickened, we've seen some people actually scum hunting and others, such as yourself, just going along with others and not really doing a whole lot while clutching to votes as long as possible. I'm inclined to believe that there is scum in the mess of people that are without true direction.

You are not my top suspect any more; however, Ythill is still making good points. What do you expect me to do, be the spearhead of every single wagon?

Have you been the spearhead of any thought in this game?

I'm not clutching to anything; I unvoted you and voted LL based on reads I garnered during my re-read.

Up until your unvote, you were clutching. Additionally, that unvote only came after you were prompted.

VPB keeps saying that both zoraster and I are scum

lol, seriously? I had that feeling at the start of the day today, which I amended shortly after. Looking at my iso, there are only two posts where I linked you and that was short lived. Do tell where I 'keep' saying it though, considering that your big ass theory above hinges on it.

I like how AGM has the scummiest reaction possible to getting lynched. P. Funneh.

I linked to everything you did with Shadow. The majority of it was setup speculation. You spent almost no time at all doing anything that RESEMBLED feeling out his alignment. You left him the hell alone.

[GreyICE]

My god, you really put in no effort at all. This game is so frustrating.

Scumplain all the way to lynch, VP.

[GreyICE]

So no explanation for the dichotomy. No explanation for why your longest discussion with Shadow Dancer was about theory. No explanations why you didn't follow up on your questions or the AGM vote. No explanation for why you thought he was scummy without doing any of that followup. No explanation for why the person who said questioning Antitown day 1 was good didn't bother to question the number 2 wagon and a 'good suspect.'

Actually, lets just focus on the last. Did you really think two different SCUM wagons were flirting with lynch threshold?

[GreyICE]

And rescuing Shadow Dancer has so little drawbacks for scum.

1) No way you lynch SD on day 3 without knowing AGM's alignment
2) MAYBE you lynch SD on day 4. MAYBE
3) Don't learn SD's alignment until

DAY 6!

Yeah. Lets just say I'm fairly certain it's you.

[GreyICE]

VP is obvtown from interactions with SD on page like fucking 2

try again dumbass

Like care to quote some interactions? Because the first interaction between VP and Shadow I found was on page 35

Don't try to push suspicion aside to Conc and RC now (knowing that I would even follw you).

WTF...what do you mean now? I've been saying this same thing since way back yesterday. I've wanted Concission lynched since I don't even know when. You think this is new?

If you were really that sure Sim was town you would not have hard core waggoned him and forced a claim but defended him pushed another waggon.

I hardcore waggoned him? Really? I suggest you go reread that section and check back with me if you still have that same opinion.

I'll admit to possibly having missed something, but the ISO is a vast wasteland when it comes to meaningful Shadow Dancer interactions.

Whatever was the post that gave you that impression, Chess?

[GreyICE]

Well that little bit.

It didn't convince me that wasn't scum buddies chatting in thread.

But at least Chess has a reason for thinking that.

PEDIT: I tell ya!

[GreyICE]

LuckayLuck gives me no scum vibes.

Nothing he says is in any way true, but I think he honestly believes the utter crapola spewing forth.

Scum can push town lynches, but in my experience it takes town (or LLD) to be truly, gloriously, utterly 100% wrong and project this with 100% conviction.

[GreyICE]

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer (L-1)

I will throw caution to the winds and trust in crypto & fate. I begrudgingly give Jarti credit on having a 'note to self' on Shadow Dancer's shady activities.

Post #1048 of Shadow Dancer's actually simply makes no sense. It has no townie flow to it.

If I wanna buy credit with a buddy's lynch, especially with the wall cases LuckayLuck is posting, I'd go about it like this. First I'd be like

"Guys, I reread the thread, and I see where you're coming from!"

Wallpost on why he's obvscum.

"Okay, lets DO IT!"

But he plunks his vote down with like no reasoning. Then sits it there all the way to lynch without even showing signs of considering moving it.

[GreyICE]

Grey now that I got off my ass, Crpyto IS the buddy, right?

Read the fuckin thread and get back to me. Do that much and I'll see if I can put a case together on VP since you can't be arsed to do it

Prolly.

I WANNA lynch Vigilante Ventriloquist for being annoying enough to be a Reaper Charlie alt, but I think he's actually town. Percy was obvtown. AGM is obvtown, Luckay is town, RedCoyote is town, you're town, Equinox is either town or about to confirm herself, and I think town, so Edgar is at work again. Plus I've never believed that belting out things loudly and with conviction makes you town.

[GreyICE]

Fate is right, you are wrong, Luckay is town. We good?

Plus, welcome to WIFOM, but if I replaced into this game with Fate having claimed scum I'd be like "OH I SEE THAT'S IT YOU CLAIM SCUM IN THREAD BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU WOULDN'T CLAIM SCUM IN A THREAD EVER AND KEEP YOURSELF ALIVE AS SCUM, NICE TRICK, NOPE.JPG 'VOTE:FATE'"

[GreyICE]

VP Baltar has been scum on everyone's scum lists for AEons before he decided 'herp SD is a good lynch but AGM is a BETTER ONE' why the fuck is fuckinq Equinox the walking dead and I can't fucking lynch this brick out of our thread?

Why the fuck hasn't he been auto-lynched? Voting town over scum is a town tell? Or maybe it was the 'herp they're both bad but AGM is worse' that does it?

[GreyICE]

How about I lynch him, and then reevaluate on the basis of him being scum?

[GreyICE]

Can you vote for VP after you do?

[GreyICE]

No, we're not good. Your predecessors were scummy as all hell. Though you jumping in with guns pointed without even finishing reading the entire thread is rather ballsy, so I don't know.

VP baltar will never be on my scumlist on the basis of the SD flip

The problem is that the stuff you quoted is a giant null tell, so unless you've got something along the lines of, "He pushed Shadow Dancer to the end," Shadow Dancer's flip doesn't absolve VP Baltar.

Fuck my predecessors with a rusty iron, I don't care about them or their play. I'm town. VP is the scum dancing around telling everyone that Shadow was scummy, but AGM was 'just a bit scummier' so just vote AGM and all will be good in life.

LuckayLuck is obvtown, do NOT make me make a town case for him Equinox. I'll actually mildly dislike you if you do.

P.S. Fate wins this thread

[GreyICE]

These don't resemble VP Baltar votes

What happened to the righteous wagon?

[GreyICE]

Ah.

FOS: Vodka

[GreyICE]

Typo, that is NOT the proper way to spell "VP Baltar."

[GreyICE]

Also you're giving into terrorists. Yes, in this case the terrorist is town, and wants to die, but think about it.

You're removing him from this game. Is it not more fitting to make him suffer through LyLo? Not that it will be LyLo if we LYNCH VP BALTAR RATHER THAN TOWN

[GreyICE]

Your mom says "stay."

[GreyICE]

I kinda feel bad.

BUT THIS IS NOT GETTING OBVSCUM LYNCHED

And I have no human emotions except rage.

[GreyICE]

CHESSKID

GET IN HERE AND START BUSSING FOR JUSTICE

HE'S TOO OBVIOUS FOR WORDS

[GreyICE]

I DONT BUS

Well you had an entire case on why your buddy was town, and almost nothing to say about your LuckayLuck vote, so I was guessing that.

[GreyICE]

Considering he's read more of the game than you, it actually makes sense he'd have good reads Grey. Disagree? Care to read the game yet? Thought nooooooooooooot.

It's funny VP.

Have actually read the game by now.

It's strange how things like that change over time.

But scumplane till your death, I don't really care.

[GreyICE]

Analysis:

AGM is town. Duh. Needs to get his head out of his ass and run your wagon up. Fate being weird while drunk is business as usual.
Fate is town. Explained why.
LuckayLuck is town. Explained why.
VV is town because they have reasoning and make sense from a town perspective.
Red Coyote is town. Will not explain why.

You are scum. Explained why.
Crypto is scum. Chesskid lolzing about his replacement being obvtown when he replaced into a slot which was pretty far from it confirms this to me.

You can see where my plans are going.

[GreyICE]

I contest that nothing about your interactions this game make me think 'town.' At all.

Yep, nothing changed. If you think there's something in there that covers up the fact that you're scum... there isn't.

[GreyICE]

I'll discuss it with any townie. I don't really see how discussing it with you is a productive use of my time. What are you going to do? Eventually go "Well, yeah, you convinced me, so I guess I'm scum after all. That red PM and the quicktopic were pretty good hints, but without your logic I just wouldn't have known!"

The only thing you've been interested in discussing with me so far is:
- How stupid I am
- How I have no idea what I'm talking about
- How I haven't read the game

So yeah, you're an unproductive waste of my time to discuss things with. You spent the AGM/Shadow Dancer wagon steadfastly ignoring shadow dancer and pushing AGM. Even when you tossed softballs to Shadow Dancer he botched them. You proceeded to not follow up at all, in any way. By the end, you were pleading with the town to lynch AGM over shadow dancer even though "Shadow is really scummy too!"

At any time you had a chance to explain why Shadow's answers in any way satisfied you. At any time you had a chance to say why you were using such WIFOMY arguments to push the AGM wagon (things like 'the number of times he's been at L-1 disturb me' - yet shadow's wagon did the same).

Yesterday your vote swung around between:

AGM
VV
RedCoyote

Pretty much at random depending on how you felt life was going.

Today, you have a different plan on how to win the game. RC and AGM are near-confirmed, so what's the plan on how to win? VV+LL/Me.

My absolute favorite:

Well, yeah, we shouldn't lynch until the replacements get in here and catch up. But we can't put it all on them or this is going to go too much down to the wire.

I'm not really sure how I feel about Maemuki...though I've been back and forth on that slot so many times this game it's ridiculous. You guys really don't see VV as trying to distance from SD late yesterday?

I'd say scumz are LL and one of GREYice/VV

When did I say I thought you were scum?

It must be killing you that you spent the first three days buddying fate so hard it FUCKING HURTS and now you can't vote for him without basically claiming scum in the thread.

Oh and does any townie want me to list the endless history of fate buddying? Because every few pages there was a post by VP Baltar telling Fate HOW COOL he is and how he should totally be voting with VP's 'scumreads.'

Now get off LuckayLuck.

Get on VP Baltar.

THIS IS TO ALL THE TOWN.

VP, your best bet is to self-vote and pray your buddy is less obvious.

[GreyICE]

My point is that you haven't attempted to have any kind of real thought process or discussion about why you think I'm scum.

You've come with a preconceived notion and tried to use rhetoric to make your horrible case seem better. I know for a fact that you're wrong, so I'm trying to get you to use your brain for a bit and actually consider the game. You have failed to do so. That's cool. If this were earlier in the game and we had mislynches to spare, I probably wouldn't even care because I pretty much despise how lazy the town has been this entire game. I would gladly die. However, that's not the case so I'm stuck arguing with you.

Now, once again I suggest you try to actually look at context and read closely instead of making snap judgments. This is pretty much my final appeal. If you are just going to reply with more derpy 'scumplaining' throwaway comments, just save it.

@Fate - I suggest you read over LuckayLuck between Mar. 10-12 and stop being lazy. You're pissing me off because you can play better than this.

Don't blame me because fate decided to quit in the past ten pages.

Also, end of game will vindicate every single thing I've said about you playing like shit.

So, let's just end that discussion,

as it's a pointless ego battle I don't have the patience for.

'kay, discussion over. Didn't quite go so well, did it?

We now enter the 'voting VP Baltar' stage of this event.

[GreyICE]

It didn't go well because you are pig-headed. Like I said, end of game will vindicate me so you may as well start tucking your tail between your legs for post game.

'kay.

I don't negotiate with terrorists either.

[GreyICE]

That was VV you dip

[GreyICE]

Wait, so chesskid who sheeped the LL wagon is more likely to be town than me who started a brand new wagon.

So the scumteam is LuckayLuck+Fate? Or I just am quixotic scum?

[GreyICE]

Like really, what's the theory. If both candidates are scum, then... I'm town... duh...

If they're not, why wouldn't I sheep a wagon?

But both are town...

[GreyICE]

What do you feel is wrong about me pointing this out to you, Equi? I mean, other than it's obvious and I shouldn't have to?

It came off as mudslinging to me. Sure, scum need to check themselves to make sure they're consistent, but town would check themselves, too, if they've lost track of their thoughts about the game. Post 2072 looked like you pointing at a null tell and screaming, "SCUM!"

Having said that, I don't like what LuckayLuck did with his self-iso, but seeing the proclamations that he's town has me scratching my head. Urk. Self-reminder here to read LuckayLuck after Fate.

By the way, I'm pretty sure LuckayLuck-VP Baltar is not town-town. Folks on the Fate wagon, yell at me if you disagree.

VP Baltar's interactions with me on the past two pages.

Town-Town, Town-Scum, or Scum-Scum?

And if 2, whose the scum?

[GreyICE]

Having said that, I don't like what LuckayLuck did with his self-iso, but seeing the proclamations that he's town has me scratching my head. Urk. Self-reminder here to read LuckayLuck after Fate.

Alimaster thinks I'm scum, several people I think are townies (VP Baltar, crypto, Fate) are voting for him; however, I just have to say:

I think AlimasterGM is a townie.

It's a tone read. I don't have evidence. I could make a post explaining why I think he's a townie based on specific intonations and such, but I won't. This makes this post really worth nothing, but I figured I should get my stance on that lynch out there.

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer

(L-1)

I will throw caution to the winds and trust in crypto & fate. I begrudgingly give Jarti credit on having a 'note to self' on Shadow Dancer's shady activities.

Post #1048 of Shadow Dancer's actually simply makes no sense. It has no townie flow to it.

Why I Think Concission is a Townie

Reason 1: Tone

In a nutshell, it's because of tone. She has been a suspect for the majority of the game; she was very heavily pressured on day one. I thought her responses were coming from a genuinely frustrated townie. It is a tone that I feel is difficult to fake.

I'm trying to imagine how funny all of what you've been saying once I flip town.

The method works back and forth. I'm not betting everything on you-scum but I'm pretty sure, sure enough to be able to start work on looking for your buddy.

Crypto needs to stop tunneling. He's been under the false impression that he caught scum and thus playing quite complacently. Please look into people other than me. Brand them my partner if you like, just DO IT.
VP clearly has no intention to find scum.
Fate's comment on Ythill bothers me. I find his tone quite off for town.

Ok guys. Lynch me now or never. I hate how many people are tunneling on me and don't make a decent case. I feel it is a strong distraction for me from scum-hunt and a demotivator for my mood. So it's something we need to deal with right NOW.

Unvote.Vote:zoraster

Reason 2: A Lost Townie

I don't think it's any secret given how pretty much everyone has been changing reads that in this game, it is difficult to have a good bearing on reads. We have to rely more on our own interpretation of events, which is mostly why everybody is going in several different directions.

sigh my reads are changing like wildfire after Jarti and Fate's posts. Though, I still think LL is town, I think I can go with this:

Unvote.Vote:AGM

Concission seems to genuinely have changed reads 'like wildfire' as she explains here.

Being A Lost Townie isn't an insult - hell, I'm a lost townie. I consider most townies in this game to be, at the time being, mostly lost.

Reason 3: Is Shadow Dancer Scum?

Because if Shadow Dancer is, and we lynch Concission now, then we'd lose a pretty serious piece of information in Concission being the L-1 vote.

I'd prefer an SD lynch

Vote:Shadow Dancer

Come on, we need 1 more vote.

If Equinox is town, and I have no reason to disbelieve her at the moment, then that's TWO DIFFERENT town lynches LuckayLuck has opposed, in favor of a scum lynch.


ALSO LUCKAY LUCK IS TOWN.

If we lynch VP today I'll be down with a Luckay luck lynch tomorrow, if only to test whether I'm a sane cop this game, but that BRIGHT RED FLIP FROM VP is gonna nail Chesskid's hide to the wall.

[GreyICE]

Emphatically not.

I will lynch myself before I lynch Fate.

[GreyICE]

Actually its interesting.

Equinox:

VP Baltar's interactions with me on the past two pages.

Town-Town, Town-Scum, or Scum-Scum?

And if 2, whose the scum?

Comments?

[GreyICE]

Oh, I forgot to respond to that. Sorry.

I don't think you'd bus VP Baltar, so scum-scum is out. I haven't decided which of the other two it is; that would have to depend on my individual reads of you two. I tried reading Shadow Dancer earlier; his interactions implicated both Jarti and VP Baltar in some fashion, so that didn't work too well.

Well tell me if you decide it's town-town

[GreyICE]

Yeah but you're town.

If you flip scum, enormous egg on my face, but you won't. Fuck if this were closed I'd claim you as a mason buddy and call it a gambit.

[GreyICE]

greyice,

thanks for posting quotes from mine which make my town-dom seem more likely
because they are pretty townish

My god

I haven't seen this since the newbie game where the kid posted 'eheehee' in response to me saying that he seemed very town.

He was town too

Please do not inject pure WIFOM into my system.

[GreyICE]

A wild scumbag appears!
It uses Flailing.
It's not very effective...

[GreyICE]

I agree that it looks like a bus from SD, but a scum in hand is worth two on the gallows....or something like that. Killing AGM is a good idea.

Hai RC you is v wrong.

[GreyICE]

So VPB, AGM still being bussed by SD? oh, nope, it was Fate/LL/Jarti/VV now. I forgot.

Wake up RC, it was interesting, but it was last minute wine from shadow, not distancing.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, reads totally can't change. You are so right.

So discuss why Shadow wasn't bussing AGM there with me? Or are you done discussing?

[GreyICE]

That wasn't my reasoning for voting you at all actually. Feel free to continue with your conjecture

Maybe you can have some of that discussion you wanted pages ago before I offered it to you and you were like 'well that implicates me as scum and I have no real answer to it, so I won't discuss it.'

Burn, VP, burn.

[GreyICE]

You know you will be hammering town

And not scum

You're writing that post because you know this is true and don't want to do it.

Here is a solution: Don't do it.

[GreyICE]

AGM was not wagoned as hard as he was for his incredible play this game.
VV is random as hell.
RC is a good player, but no player is always right

Don't divest yourself of responsibility. What you do with your vote is your fault and yours alone.

[GreyICE]

You've read the last few pages.
Is that a town player answering me? Is that a town player voting fate? Is that a town attitude at all? No.
You know Fate is town. You know VP is scum. I can read it in every fucking line of your post.
So don't whine in the post game that the game was lost when you hammered town because you trusted others more than yourself.
Because your role PM is green does not give you a license on being right.

[GreyICE]

No. I don't give up. I've tried the compromise thing and somehow the flip is always green. I've made mistakes. Oh god have I. But I own them. I'm not going to stop fighting for the lynch I think is right just because the town opposes me. I've sat in enough dead threads and watched towns to know that Townies running a wagon means shit in a snowstorm.

That's what being in the trenches means. It means when your strategy is up in flames and the orders don't make any fucking sense and half your shit is on fire, you put out the fires, pick yourself up, and find a new strategy.

Look at the last pages of VP Baltar's interactions. Let VP's partner hammer if he wants to. Or let him risk the VP wagon picking back up steam.

Vote if you think the flip will be scum, and not for any other reason. Not on day four.

[GreyICE]

Fate-LuckayLuck-ShadowDancer?

Nope.jpg

Try again.

[GreyICE]

Ok, I did some rereading of Ythill and SD today. The things that stand out to me are:

1) Ythill was all over LuckayLuck like a cheap suit as long as he was alive. Like, worse than he was riding me even. He mildly pushed SD, but not nearly enough for SD to want him dead night 1 in my opinion. Luckay on the other hand would very likely want him dead. Put the two of them together on a scum team and you have ample reasoning for them to kill Ythill. I highly doubt anyone had a PR read on him.

2) SD doesn't really say much of anything about LL all game. While on his deathbed, SD places LL in the 'third scum what do I know?' category, which seems like a convenient place to put a buddy you haven't paid much attention to all game. They have some mild back and forth that doesn't seem to have much conviction behind it early on and then that's the end of that. The few times they interact seem forced to me.

Additionally, I feel like LL has dropped off the face of the earth as this game has gone on. Not that a lot of people haven't been lazy this game, because they have, but I felt like he was really into the game early on and trying hard. That's why I had a town read on him despite his reads and cases sucking so badly. He's been buddying up to Fate and I all game, as SD was doing too. I think this was a conscious ploy by the scum team to make it Fate+VP vs. RC+AGM. I don't like the suspicion that's been on me this game, but I can probably understand it given I've been kind of lazy and bitchy at times. So, I would think it's reasonable for people that don't have much experience with me to be suspicious over that. SD and LL weren't really at all. That's all WIFOM of course, but that's what my gut is saying.

I'd like LL dead today.

Unvote, Vote:LuckayLuck

This case? 'cause this is one of the ways I push mislynches on town when I'm scum. It's one of the reasons you need to eat fucking dirt.

1) Ythill died, Ythill suspected LuckayLuck, therefore LuckayLuck was scum. Since scum control the kills, you'd be amazed how easy these sorts of things are to pull off. The major problem? Ythill barely got the wagon to three votes. The most consistent about voting Luckay? AGM.

Ythill was pushing among others...

BTW...

UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: Shadow Dancer

So, that's basically deep, hardcore NK WIFOM. Having it be point 1 is LAME.

2) Shadow Dancer pushed a fairly classic scum pattern that I've noted quite often in other games - limited communication. He seemed to mostly talk to those he was trying to buddy, and possible lynch candidates. Here's an early example of interactions with Luckay:

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

Sorry, but since you reference me here I have to insist on this:
The "scumclaim" part is obviously utter bullshit...
And I hope your town play is also methodical in some way.
What is scummy about Anti is that he seems rather focussed on what would keep him out of the line of fire instead of actually making a case.

He just deflects and remains in his tunnel on anti. He never interacts with very many people - LL, Fate, VP Baltar, Crypto, even Conc. Fuck he barely interacts with Red Coyote when voting for him.

3) LL is lurking 'harder' than others because he was 'more active' early game. This is fairly frequent when a player has strong scum and town reads, and has the wind knocked out of their sails by flips. Known null-townish behavior, VP.


In short, this isn't even a very CONVINCING case I'd use to push a mislynch on town. It's based mostly on shit Shadow dancer did, everything in the case could apply to half the thread, and you seem to find it scummy in such a way it's nearly impossible to refute.

You should

DIE

for this fucking case, VP.

[GreyICE]

Just as a side note for when this game is done, if you don't act like a twat I will most likely respond to you in a fair manner and give you my best effort, regardless of what you think about my alignment. The fact that you misrepresent every single point in that case to make it fit your tunneling and sound weaker than it actually is doesn't really give me any incentive to debate it with you.

'kay.

I don't negotiate with terrorists.

[GreyICE]

A totally not contrived and very serious case on why AGM is scum that does not parody any other cases in the thread

1) Shadow dancer's initial 'read' on AGM was very weak, and looks more like distancing from a scumbuddy than pushing a town lynch. Voting at L-1, he gains town cred for the scum wagon at a time when it seems inevitable.

His commentary seems to suggest as much:

And who's already talking about claiming and hammering? I thought this was agreed on as a pressure waggon? Alma should defend himself and contribute some reads, as far as I am concerned.

Basically, he's looking for town cred for the red flip, while still trying to derail the wagon (we agree it's just for pressure, etc. etc.). As the wagon goes away, he goes back to not mentioning AGM except to explain his vote. Day 2 he returns, again with a vote suggesting he's not happy voting for AGM:

AGM's still not looking good, pretty much back to fence sitting with some defensiveness in between. I would be quite happy with that lynch. And RC waggon seems to bobble somwhere in nowhere again

Unvote. Vote AGM

L-1

The third time his vote lands on, he votes, then immediately attempts to distance from the lynch, with this series of posts:

vote Alma

then.

IN CASE NO ONE NOTICED: CONC MADE A STUNNING 180° TURN FROM OPPOSING A CLAIM TO APPROVING IT, OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT EVEN REMEBERING HER EARLIER OPINION.
BUT ANYWAY, FORGET THE CLAIM NOW SINCE ALMA JUST MADE IT IRRELEVANT.

Again, worried that his buddy will go down without him getting town cred, and in fact getting him lots of scum points when he's already in a bad way.

His last acts are distancing from AGM-scum:

Anyway, this gives me the freedom to try and

UNVOTE. VOTE AGM

Counterwaggon gogogogo!

OK... Let's make a final approach.

Unvote. Vote AGM

Clearly meant to show us that AGM was town as the lynch rolled to inevitable, and he flipped red.

2) AGM's behavior towards shadow:

Because back when SD started being scummy, she got put at L-1, so I was holding off on the vote. Obviously in retrospect I shoulda just thrown the hammer, but WHATEVS. And then the wagon changed back to me and I forgot I wasn't voting for SD.

Unvote; Vote: SD

So basically, he realizes that a double bus is totally going to confirm one of them town, no matter how bad the play is.

I think it's extremely safe to assume SD is scum right now.

And as such, I am very pleased with my Fate vote. He tried INSANELY hard to get that wagon switched off me to SD. That, plus everything Glados said before.

Again, tying SD's red flip (which he knows will occur) to Fate, to get a mislynch on Fate.

Fate, I actually really like your argument about the quickhammer. However, if that incriminates anyone, doesn't incriminate VPB? He sat there with his vote on zoraster POST CLAIM. If that isn't the definition of begging for a quickhammer, I don't know what is.

And I can't find a time when VV was stalling zoraster at L-1...can you link to it?

Then he pushes suspcion on VPB and asks Fate to make a case on VV (It's so much fun to ask town to make a case on town when you're scum!).

So basically, he used a double bus to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, and you all bought it. AGM would be scum without a SD red flip, and that lame on-again, off-again bus they used against each other was clearly a scum tactic to create exactly this situation. Both were nearly worthless to the town, both were getting wagoned, so they double bussed to confirm one or the other, and that's exactly what happened.

And what's he done since then? Shamelessly bandwagon, why he'll join virtually anything that comes up. Fate (after liking him at the beginning of the day), VPB, Crypto, LuckayLuck, there's very few people he doesn't think are scummy. He's just flailing about looking for more mislynches, and you're all giving him a pass because of a double bus by two very scummy players who easily should have been lynched back to back.

We need to lynch AGM today.

=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=

Get it, VPB? It's a giant load of circumstantial bollocks. Which, oddly, resembles your LuckayLuck case rather closely.

That's what I mean when I say that that's a case I use as scum to push lynches on town. It's EXACTLY the formatting, it's exactly the weak circumstantial evidence drummed up to 11, it's exactly the lack of conviction and lack of solid motivation that I'm used to.

Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

[GreyICE]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You don't get to act like you want to have an open discussion about things and then be completely snarky to every single thing I say. You've reached your conclusions since before you even bothered to read the game, so it's quite pointless for me to act like you care what my responses to you are at all. Agree or disagree?

No VPB.

I don't care about anything that happens after the game. I don't care if you'll yell at me in the dead thread. I don't care if you'll change your signature to "GreyICE sucks at Mafia." I don't care if you will be very mean to me. I don't care what happens outside of this game. Got it? Got it 100%?

The town will not lose without your input. The town would not be lost without you. The town is not going to lose a game because of your lynch. You 'lording it over me and telling me how foolish I was' in the post game does not scare me. Nothing that happens outside this game is going to influence my actions here.

Town explains their actions and why they're town, and who they think is scummy. Scum threaten me with how I'll lose the game if I lynch them, or look scummy, or get lynched myself, or look really stupid, or be a fucking idiot.

I don't negotiate with Terrorists.

If you want to threaten me, fine. Don't care.

[GreyICE]

Your case was horrible. It has no town logic, and no town motivation. Shadow's actions applied to many townies. LL's actions are things that many townies have done. Fuck, you admit it yourself. It's not only circumstantial (which most cases in this game are), it's selection bias. You want him to be scum, so you select things in his case that are scummy. Then you put it all together and shout at the town a lot.

I've seen it quite a bit from scum. The last time I saw it from town, it was SingerSigner, and the

actual

case she had was 'I'm the town tracker and he targeted the night kill.'

That

was pretty convincing.

So VP, what's the actual reason you're SO SURE that Fate and LL will flip scum? Why have you waffled on Fate so much? What the hell was up with the buddying up until now? Not a bunch of circumstantial shit around SD, real reasons, real scum motivation, real hard reasoning.

[GreyICE]

Oh and in case you're wondering, I read all of day 2 when I voted for you. That's around 20 pages. Yes, it's an 80 page game (moving on 90 now), I didn't read all of it before contributing to the thread.

If you want to call that 'stupid' or 'scummy' go ahead. I could care less, along with insults to me, my maturity, my age, my gameplay, how dumb I'll look in the post game, or any other things you have to say about me personally.

[GreyICE]

However did you get a wagon on you? Your posts are so very useful and obvtown.

[GreyICE]

However did you get a wagon on you? Your posts are so very useful and obvtown.

it's not a wagon. it's just you.

and as far as being useful, i 100% agree - I checked the fuck out of this game over 10 pages ago. This is an 80 page game. I'm voting for Fate based on past evidence. That ain't gonna change because of some WOOO LOOO back and forth.

Are you
fucking
high?

You're obvtown. Just USELESS this game.

[GreyICE]

And this is why we need to lynch scum today and tomorrow, Fate. Guess whose alive in 3 man LyLo?

[GreyICE]

I can just see it right now. LyLo = chesskid 3, AGM, LuckayLuck.

AGM, if it does go there and you vote Luck, I will gouge your eyes out with a spoon. At least you can blame that one on me if you lose.

[GreyICE]

Well, I completely disagree with your point that SD was under more heat from Ythill. Seriously, if you look at his iso, Ythill was banging the drum most of the day for an LL wagon. His attacks on SD were not nearly that strong. If they had survival motivation for killing him it was because of LL, not SD. This is cold hard scum motivation you're asking about.

SD said plenty of things about the players you listed. Hell, he was buddying up to me in pretty much every single reads post he made. Same thing with Fate to a lesser degree. Additionally, I find the few interactions between SD and LL to be very forced in nature. It's not just that it's SD either, that channel goes both ways. When SD is in his death throes he places LL on his scumlist seemingly out of left field. The scum motivation here is distancing. It was done poorly.

The final point about LL dropping off is admittedly the weakest. There are town motivations to do this, including simple apathy about this game. If you want to call that one null, so be it. I consider it more corroborating evidence to the first two points than the latter.

In terms of Fate, I find his flop on me when he was seemingly in trouble again to be scummy. He is sheeping your case and trying to take credit for it. Additionally, he is trying to bully me into calling him town, which is bullshit. SD's vote on Equinox yesterday to save Fate from the guillotine is suspicious. Admittedly, I wrote it off before because I did have a strong town read on him. However, 90 percent of my town read on him was based on playstyle and little else. It is very possible that Fate is playing to his town meta this game (considering he's hyper aware of it) and I decided to reconsider. Now he's flailing hard. For example, he says he wouldn't proxy his vote. Why is that? Seems to me like if you get lynched, proxying your vote to a strong town read like RC is optimal play in this setup. It removes WIFOM from the equation.

I hope this has explained my position to you so you don't feel like I'm making so many threats.

How about VP Baltar? That was one of his major scumreads.

LL, SD, VP Baltar, RedCoyote. That makes sense for him as a kill with EITHER you OR LuckayLuck as scum. So it's null.

Shadow dancer never ever buddied you. That's just false. He did try and deflect wagons off of you, but when he wasn't deflecting a wagon from you, he never mentioned you, sheeped your reads, or did anything else involved in buddying (saying how town you were, talking about how interesting one of your posts was, complimenting your arguments and supporting them, etc.). He just knocked wagons off of you.

His treatment of LL was simple. He just ignored him pretty much totally.

As for trying to WIFOM me with Fate, no. You have to fall back to ShadowDancer AGAIN. Nothing Fate has done is scummy. Odd, yes. Bad reads? Sometimes. Scum? No.

P.S.

Just because I haven't summarized in awhile...

Scum

Luck (by a lot)
VPB
Shadow, Sim
AGM
Anti
Conc, Red
Jarti, Zor
Percy
Fate
crypto

Town

This gets you killed even if Luckay is town if you and Shadow are scum together.

[GreyICE]

Crypto scum + VPB town = Red Coyote scum.

Not sure I like that idea much

[GreyICE]

I have been thinking more about this proxying vote thing, and the more I do, the more I like it. I wish I had thought of it sooner.

Let's face it, regardless of who gets gullotined, there is going to be some degree of suspicion around that person, correct? This creates many problems, particularly since we're never going to be 100 percent sure we're in lylo. In order to deter (since we cannot prevent) quick hammers by scum, I suggest we proxy the guillotined person's vote to a mutually agreed town player. That player then commands the guillotined person's vote as his/her first vote. I know it's not fool proof, but it gives that town player a better chance to be the hammer and to stop a quick scum hammer from happening.

Thoughts?

How about we lynch you?

[GreyICE]

We're going into LyLo tomorrow, correct? And just NOW you think of mentioning that you want the person on the guillotine to sheep his vote to someone? The day before LyLo?

Why did you JUST think of it now?

[GreyICE]

Let's face it, regardless of who gets gullotined, there is going to be some degree of suspicion around that person, correct? This creates many problems, particularly since we're never going to be 100 percent sure we're in lylo. In order to deter (since we cannot prevent) quick hammers by scum, I suggest we proxy the guillotined person's vote to a mutually agreed town player. That player then commands the guillotined person's vote as his/her first vote. I know it's not fool proof, but it gives that town player a better chance to be the hammer and to stop a quick scum hammer from happening.

No. This LyLo is only atypical in that the vote threshold is a little higher; other than that, just treat it like any other LyLo. How does this "deter quick hammers by scum," anyway? If you proxy your vote to, say, Vigilante Ventriloquist, and he calls the wrong player scum, you are going to get that quick hammer anyway. You can trust someone you believe to be town to not manipulate you, but you can't blindly trust their judgment. I suppose if you agree with that person 100%, then there isn't much of a difference in who controls the vote, but that has to be the guillotined player's call.

TLDR: He doesn't want Fate lynching him tomorrow.

Note how he was mentioning this plan around the time the town was discussing having guillotined players leading the lynch.

You know what? I'm just going to quote a random scummy defense of SD or other scummy post by VP in every post I make from here on out. This is PAINFUL.

I actually think that SD not quick hammering Zoraster is a point in his favor for being town at this point. Maybe we should lynch today under the assumption that SD is town. Well, actually, I need to check the time stamps on his post and see if he was on MS at that time posting in other games. If he was, then that's a very strong indicator that he's town.

[GreyICE]

Simenon:

Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote,

Concission,

Fate, Ythill, LuckayLuck, VP Baltar, Vigilante Ventriloquist, Jarti, Fate, zoraster (Lynch!)

Shadow Dancer:

RedCoyote, LuckayLuck, Jarti,

AlmasterGM,

Concission

, Vigilante Ventrioloquist (Lynch!)

AlmasterGM:

zoraster, VP Baltar, crypto,

Shadow Dancer

, Fate

Concission:

crypto, Fate, Vigilante Ventriloquist,

Shadow Dancer

, Maemuki (L-2)
Fate: AlmasterGM, LuckayLuck, RedCoyote,

Fate: Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote,

AlmasterGM,

VP Baltar, chesskid3 (Lynch!)

Vigilante Ventriloquist has been on every lynch wagon in the game, period.
VP dodged only the scum one (unless anyone thinks Fate's flipping scum)

Vote: VP Baltar

[GreyICE]

Yeah so Fate's case
Was very convincing
And we should all vote VP
Like yesterday
Except Chesskid.

[GreyICE]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2980214
^This is a game I wanted to link multiple times while AGM was still alive to throw it in his fucking face. When I'm scum I DON"T GET CAUGHT, I don't get lynched, I don't "defend" buddies or push mislynches that make me look bad or ANY OF THAT SHIT. AGM was just too DERPADERP and wifom'd himself into a coma with "ZOMG FATEI S ABUSING HIS META BY ANTI-BUSSING ZOMGZOMG" horseshit. If I was scum, NONE OF YOU FUCKS WOULD KNOW IT.

I'm missing "The Mafia Traitor" Enigma, Twisted "Who, me, post in the motherfucking thread" Spoon, Crazy "What game?" Pianist, and BV "Clown" 310 to cloud my judgment right now

[GreyICE]

WELL HEY YOU DONT NEED TO BE GOOD AT POKER.


JUST BETTER THAN WHOEVER YOU"RE PLAYING AGAINST AMIRITE?

Yeah no kidding.

Enigma flipping town will be one of the eternal mysteries of the universe.

I was kinda getting there but I kept being distracted by how obvscum Enigma was. It's what threw me off Socio, then I didn't see you as scum with Socio for some reason or another (probably because if Enigma, BV, and TS were all town I was going to stab myself in the face OH LOOK HOW THEY FLIPPED AR#QW%#Q#%!@%%$!@%R!@%@!%@!%R)

[GreyICE]

So anyway, in this thread VP Baltar isn't lynched yet.

I am v. disappointed.

[GreyICE]

Well except it's 5:2 so uh no

[GreyICE]

oh ther's 7 alive meh

jafjaofjaofjaofj

also I don't get it fate

Who is LL's partner chess?

It has to be either VPB or Red Coyote, if you're right.

[GreyICE]

hey, guess what. I have two votes and I've not been quicklynched yet. Guess what that guarantees? Fate is scum?

Am I the only motherfucker on earth who can count to seven?

Do I need to mail out sesame street videos?

[GreyICE]

Wait

It is lylo

because 1 town on guillotine, 1 scum, 1 town. They lynch scum, scum can still night kill, no one left alive

Oh well, VPB just admitted its lylo, making him confirmed scum.

[GreyICE]

OH TOOK YOU THAT LONG TO REALIZE?


FOR FUCKS SAKE SOMETIMES I THINK YOU DONT EVEN READ MY POSTS OR RESPECT MY GODDAMN READS

WAIT I'VE BEEN VOTING VP BALTAR BEFORE YOU

I WAS JUST LIKE "OH SEVEN ALIVE THAT MEANS DAY BEFORE LYLO WITH TWO SCUM"

YEAH I'M GOOD WITH MECHANICS, I NO RITE?

OUT OF CURIOUSITY WHY THE HELL DID YOU GUYS USE THE DAY VIG ON A GUY ON THE GIBBIT? BECAUSE 5:2 IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN 4:2, AMRIGHT?

I SERIOUSLY CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ONE.

[GreyICE]

I MEAN I SHOULD JUST GO FIND THE FUCKER WHO SUGGESTED THAT ANTI-TOWN PIECE OF NONSENSE AND LYNCH EM, THEY HAVE TO BE SCUM.

[GreyICE]

OH TOOK YOU THAT LONG TO REALIZE?


FOR FUCKS SAKE SOMETIMES I THINK YOU DONT EVEN READ MY POSTS OR RESPECT MY GODDAMN READS

WAIT I'VE BEEN VOTING VP BALTAR BEFORE YOU

I WAS JUST LIKE "OH SEVEN ALIVE THAT MEANS DAY BEFORE LYLO WITH TWO SCUM"

YEAH I'M GOOD WITH MECHANICS, I NO RITE?

OUT OF CURIOUSITY WHY THE HELL DID YOU GUYS USE THE DAY VIG ON A GUY ON THE GIBBIT? BECAUSE 5:2 IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN 4:2, AMRIGHT?

I SERIOUSLY CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ONE.

No seriously Fate

Who suggested this

Please tell me it was VP, nail in coffin

[GreyICE]

Grey, the person who suggested it was Ythill.

HOWEVER, he suggested it under these conditions:

The Tracker was still alive.

THAT WAY, someone is vigged, the Innocent Child claims, and then the tracker gets innocents off PoEing the rest of them down.


The vig SHOULD NOT HAVE SHOT OR CLAIMED since the Tracker died, and a good page of my ISO is giving Glados SHIT just for that, but we're way past that. I don't remember VP's stance on the issue.

But but but seriously but 3(+1):2>>>>>> 4(+1):2 when town is aiming the shot.

WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE THIS

HE COULD HAVE SHOT SHADOW DANCER SAVED US ALL SOME TIME

[GreyICE]

Grey, I've already raged that rage for you ok?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2831060

Meh fine.

The postgame is just going to be a wall of rage at every town player who let him shoot the person on the guillotine.

But for now VPB has claimed scum in thread.

Quickhammers from our '#1 scum candidate' from Chesskid don't seem to be showing up.

I wonder why.

[GreyICE]

Greyice
are you town?

if you are
vote LL
then THERE CAN BE A QUICKHAMMER ONL Y IF WE'RE ALL 3 OF US TOWN
DO IT

HEY FATE TOUGH QUESTIONS
DO I VOTE WITH THE SCUMZ OR THE TOWNZ?

Seriously, why is Luckay scum?
Who is his partner?
Why is VP town?

Am I slamming my face into a massive brick wall?

[GreyICE]

I was pretty impressed actually.

Scum had to be one of you or Twisted Spoon, and you convinced them to vote for BV and TS.

I mean I'm honestly more impressed with how stupid TS, BV, and Gandalf are, but yeah.

[GreyICE]

Actually the AGM shot is just fucking inexplicable to be frank.

Would VP scum make that shot? I dunno. I mean everything AGM posted in this thread was really stupid. Why kill him?

[GreyICE]

I made a post entitled:

A totally not contrived and very serious case on why AGM is scum that does not parody any other cases in the thread

To show how easy it was to throw together one of those cases that VP posted on someone, since he was pretty fucking obviously town, and he was like 'lol you serious, no one thinks I'm scum...'

[GreyICE]

Well offhand it should rule out Red Coyote scum, since he'd have voted RC about when hell froze over. But uh... why not kill the useful one of the two

[GreyICE]

Because "Fate scum" would definitely have killed "AGM" to get rid of his tunneling self.

OR something like that I would guess.

Only thing I can think of is that I would 100% vote for VP. You would 100% vote for VP. So if we're both alive and AGM is dead, why VP must be town!

Or maybe they just rolled a die. I'm actually fucking brilliant at predicting night kills, and I didn't see that one coming. At all.

[GreyICE]

Mmmm, potential lylo is my favorite time to throw around votes too. I would be more worried if I thought Fate was town.

Here's where I currently stand: If Fate is town (lolol), VP Baltar is very very likely scum. If Fate is scum, my first choice is GreyICE.

I meant to actually bother to go back and make a post to analyze connections, but I logged on and had a new PM for day starting already. Meh.

Not sure there's much to make of the AGM kill. My first thought was to check who he suspected, but you tell me what to make of this. It was either a really bad WIFOM kill or...no, I really have no idea. I pretty much had it as a given that RC would die.

Vote: Fate

. Safest vote atm.

(The "safest" vote here is actually VPB, since I highly doubt a scum team with neither VPB nor Fate, but considering I still think Fate is scum, I do not currently support a VPB lynch.)

THERE'S NO CURRENT TO THIS YOU FUCKING MORON

IT'S LYLO

IF FATE IS TOWN AND WE LYNCH TOWN TODAY WE LOSE

VPB IS SCUM

HE'S BEEN SCUM FOREVER

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND VOTE AND WE CAN WATCH FATE FLIP GREEN AND THE FUCKING GAME WON'T END

OH AND WHY'S THAT?

YOU WANT TO LYNCH FATE BUDDIES BEFORE YOU SEE THE FLIP IN LYLO?

ARE YOU DUMB OR SCUM HERE?

[GreyICE]

Which part?

YES

[GreyICE]

IF FATE IS TOWN THEN VPB IS SCUM
IF WE LYNCH TOWN TODAY WE LOSE
FATE WILL DIE AT END OF DAY
LETS LYNCH BASED ON HIM BEING SCUM RATHER THAN HIM BEING TOWN

[GreyICE]

If we lynch town today

if Fate is town

, we lose.

I can see your point though. But after it took like 3 days to get Fate lynched, it would feel awesome to nail his buddy the next day.

I will laugh so fucking hard at you when he flips town.

[GreyICE]

Vote VPB

Very calm and stable.

Do it

[GreyICE]

Why not, you'll be 3/3 in alignments of your top suspects

Don't break the streak, VV.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, so

Entire town has posted.

VPB at 3 votes.

LyLo.

Lets see how this plays out

[GreyICE]

If it's RedCoyote and LuckayLuck or something, I'm gonna be soooooo pissed.

But I just don't think it is.

You'd be nice and tell us if that was a game ender, right?

[GreyICE]

Meh apparently we get to wait for the moderator.

[GreyICE]

I mean could just be he was in quickhammer range with the entire town posting in what's LyLo if Fate's scum and it wasn't raining quickhammers.

Which means either Fate or VPB is scum, once that act gets rolling.

Then again....

Come on hito

[GreyICE]

Yeah, we were pretty much wrong about everything

[GreyICE]

So basically SD got the shit bussed out of him.

[GreyICE]

I think we're all glad that's over! That replacement hell was awful. Thanks to those who stuck it out, and thanks to those who replaced in at that terrible bleak end. (GreyICE and Equinox in particular, I owe you two a cross-replace. Chess got his!)

As you all know, this was the debut run of Rusty Guillotine, and farside has asked that you answer these questions:

1) what players thought of the set up
2) did they feel with the delay in knowing the roles that it may not fall under the Open guidelines
3) would they play it again. If so why/or why not?

I thought the town's use of powers was HORRIBLE

1) The choice to shoot someone on the guillotine rather than possible scum turned LyLo into MyLo. With no protective roles, this just gave up one shot of lynching scum. Basically, the power was thrown away for no purpose whatsoever, and the more I look at the decision, the more I realize that it was stupid as sin. Every single player in this town who was not scum should be smacked in the face for letting that happen.

2) The town lost its tracker N1, and both confirmable townies the next two days. What. The. Fuck.

3) if the town had had ANY POWER ROLE DO ANYTHING it was probably balanced. As it was, it was basically 11:3 with 2 known 'earls' who had to be shot.

4) Tracker was just a cop with the scum having that many power roles. Lemme rephrase the scum roles a bit 'You may do X. If you do not, you investigate as town.' I strongly suggest a different investigative role, since that just really annoys.

[GreyICE]

Oh and Luckay Luck was OBVTOWN

Why was he under suspicion? That wagon was so bad I thought that scum absolutely 100% HAD to be on it.

PEdit: Oh, that's stupid. Make it a real 1-shot vig then.

[GreyICE]

Okay, yeah, but reread your case on LL at some point and redo the thoughts on 'bad cases townies stick to without reevaluating.' I think my fake case on AGM was better, and he was FUCKING OBVTOWN JUST LIKE LL. It was the most made up piece of tossed together scum shit.

When you sit there stonewalling me, calling me awful, scumplaining and telling me how much I'll chuckle it up in the post game without doing exactly that, yeah I get quite the fucking scumread.

There was NOTHING in that case that was the least bit convincing, VPB. I could have made virtually that exact case on any player in the entire game.

Pedit: Blah it's so much easier to see when you're not in the trenches.

[GreyICE]

I'm not really going to argue with you because I don't care enough to. All I'm saying is that you tunneled on me from the moment you replaced and weren't listening to a word I said otherwise. I honestly feel like you came at me with an attitude from the start because you wanted to be right. That is why I was calling you awful, because frankly I do find that to be awful play. I did try to offer an olive branch and open the channels of discussion at one point by explaining why I felt my LL case was solid. Even though it has been shown I was wrong now, I still think it was worth discussion and I was open to discussion about it. The same thing was said to me by other players when I said VV was scum. It just pisses me off when people are so dismissive about possibilities other than what they feel.

Yeah, sorry, but your responses to me screamed SCUM.

'you haven't read the game!'
'well you've read all 80 pages and your reads didn't change enough from reading 20 pages (actually 80 solidified LL town into rock, Fate town into rock, AGM town into rock, and... very little else tbh, the great unwashed were really meh).' Then you whine about how you'll be shown to be right in the post game (which isn't an argument).

I do derail my own wagons and leave tunnels, but your response was pig awful. You do realize that you never once asked or had a back and forth with me on why LL was town, you just threw me into the scum pile for defending him, then threw Fate in there as well.

[GreyICE]

Dude I can be wrong. Am all the time. You did NOTHING to show me I was wrong and listened to NOTHING I said about LuckayLuck.

Fine. Cool. You and Fate can blame me. But don't pretend that you didn't spit in my face when I replaced in, and did anything but do that for the entire rest of the day.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE just an FYI from an impartial observer of this game that it looks like you're doing your damndest to move from promising new player to mediocre, intolerable bore #7 because you've picked the wrong role models for your game.

Fair enough.

[GreyICE]

Out of curiosity, who is your main?

[GreyICE]

[GreyICE]

Blah, yeah, sorry VP.

Anyway, onto setup speculation. I'm sorry, it was not 'middling' hito. It was scum sided, through and through.

1) 14 players - why? Statistically, 14 players gives less odds of winning than 13 players for town, all else being equal (yes, removing a VT actually improves odds). Less mislynch fodder. 13>14 I'd love to see the 14 decision discussed and justified.

2) delayed flips - arguably gives more interaction with the player. Possibly town-sided. But definitely not strong enough town-sided to be considered 'town power.'

3) Town power. Speaking of that, 13>14 in terms of mathematical chances of success. So lets look at the town power in the last few mini normals:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2812375

Mason pair, 2shot vig VERSUS 3 goons
Mason Pair, 2 shot dayvig, {Neighbor Pair}, versus 2 shot rolecop, 2 goons
Gunsmith, 1 shot vig, versus 2 goons+godfather
Doctor, 1shot roleblocker, cop versus 2 goons, roleblocker

Basically, ALL of those are stronger than:
Tracker
French Vanilla townie (soul)
Impatient Vig (uh... no idea how to classify this, basically French Vanilla townie)
Versus: Roleblocker (WIFOM about claimed trackers GO), Role cop (once tracker dead French Vanillas get hunted), goon

I'd suggest:
1 Jailkeeper
1 1-shot guillotine alignment reporter (publishes alignment of person on guillotine to thread)
1 Tracker

Versus Rolecop, 2xgoons

That's still scum-leaning, but less so.

[GreyICE]

Regarding the 14 - it's a consequence of the delayed flips, to put the town on odds from D2 on (except when the vig shoots).

The general rule is to start on odds to STAY on odds, but in this setup, you need to start on evens to land on odds.

As for more power, I'm open to ideas, but nothing that will block a kill. Otherwise there are silly interactions with the guillotine I want to avoid. There needs to be one lynch a day, one kill a night.

But it didn't work Hito.

Look at the last day
6 Alive

1 on Guillotine

MyLo. That's not odds at all. If you erase the 1 on guillotine (because they effectively don't count), it's just '6 alive.'

Now trim 1 player
5 alive
1 on guillotine

THAT IS LYLO

Your math was bad from the start.

No jailkeeper is fine (in that case no killing roles either) so you're left with:

Cop
Masons
Bodyguard (Bodyguard would be a VERY good protective role here)
Watcher

I'd suggest bodyguard+watcher would not hurt at all, along with the reporter (the reporter is much cooler than the impatient vig if you ask me)

[GreyICE]

I don't think the delayed flips favor town either.

You know what would be interesting and I might run someday?

A similar version with no delayed flips, but delayed kills.

That would STRONGLY favor the town, enough that I think it might be worth a power role or two.