Mini 346: 100 MPH Mafia - Game Over

[Patrick]

Vote: mikanoff

He doesn't seem to be paying much attention.

[Patrick]

Ok spromtalic simul posted with me. Looking back, I find this talk of a no lynch strange at this point. I hope nobody else is going to vote no lynch, we would be giving scum one or two kills and would have the same situation tomorrow, but with fewer pro town players.

This sentence strikes me as suspicious. Why would you want someone random to die when the deadline comes when it will be highly likely that this person will be town. I'm not saying theres no chance of a scum lynch but I'm sure we'd rather not take the chance.

I don't think anyone was suggesting a random lynch. We try to lynch scum obviously. We try to pick someone who we think has a higher than average chance of being scum.

[Patrick]

Hmm sorry for triple posting. I'm the one not paying attention. I was mixing it up with another game where someone was killed at the start. Here we have no crime. Still I don't think mike should be just voting no lynch right off the bat.

[Patrick]

mmmm other people pays less atenttion that me, and you vote me because I had a vote yet...

Mike if you ready my third post of the triple, you'll see I took that back, It was my mistake.

Romanus - I agree that if we talked and nothing at all came out, and time was passing, then we shouldn't lynch at random. That's fine. Nevertheless you have to realise that scum will want this, and that in a sense would be a small victory for them if we no lynch. We should be discussing and forming suspicions, not immidiately speeding towards no lynch.

[Patrick]

Unvote
Vote: Patrick

Because he says is better to lynch somebody but he don't want to be lynched...

lol?

[Patrick]

Vote: Keep Brutal Assassin

The game seems lively and is already getting interesting which is good to see.
@Mikanoff: That was my first vote of the game, it hardly needs a good reason. My vote stays on you for now, because you seem to think no lynch is a good idea. You are also voting for me without a reason as far as I can see, but I suspect newbieness may be playing a part in this. Oh and if it makes you feel better, I haven't forgotten that Romanus was also advocating no lynch. He is worth looking at too.
@Rathyr: I find your defence of me interesting. While you're correct, I'm just wondering if there is some buddying up going on here.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I considerate no lynch an idea better than lynch an inocent. And it seem that you prfer to lynch an inocent that no lynch.

I never like do random lynch, people as you defends to lynch somebody without having any reason against him, why not lynch you?
You say vote me because is more possible I would be scum, and you're wrong about me. So, I believe you are bad
I'm sure that if you were citizen, you think different...

Stop misrepresenting me. I never said I want to

random lynch

anyone. I just want discussion, followed by a lynch of someone who has a better than average chance of being scum. You seem to be taking my vote on you too seriously and you are just OMGUS voting me.

[Patrick]

lol just thought Ide mention it because I've only completed one game to date, and yes I was scum and yes I buddied up to a townie 8)

[Patrick]

Ok at the moment I'm going to lay off Mike a bit. Having looked back, his posts are obviously unhelpful and ignorant, but possibly no more than that. He may just be showing his newbness. Mike is not a terrible lynch, but I think there are others who look scummier than him for now.
So who else is suspect?
Romanus came out early telling us how great a no lynch is, but quickly backtracked when it become clear that others didn't like this. He has played his newbie card.

Post 76 Romanus said:

Where is Eyeofmordor?
Does anyone else think spectrumvoid is scummy?
I'm not convinced of Patrick.
Why should we go after Mikeanoff?

He seems very keen to put attention onto other ppl. He hints that eye of mordor might be lurking, fishes for possible reasons why the town should vote spectrumvoid, and says he doesn't trust me, but without any reason. He then seems to be suggesting mike isn't a good target for today.
In his next post 6 minutes he votes Mike 'for his own survival' which seems a bit odd to me. I don't imagine the deadline is going to hit us just yet (would be an absolutely crazy pace if it did).

Sprontanic is also suspect because he advocated no lynch before and seens to be suggesting generally bad strategies for the town to pursue. He attacks Rathry, by continually saying he advocated random lynching and 'risk' when this doesn't seem to be true.

I had grouped Romanus and sprontanic un the same broad category because they seemed to be on the same wavelength as each other, and in post 82 wolfsbane pointed out that sprontanic defended Romanus. Interestingly in post 90 Sprontanic now says this:

So you think that if someone revokes the 'suspicious' things they did then it makes them less suspicious? Well I don't. I think it's more scummy.

which seems to be throwing suspicion away from himself and onto Romanus. Possible distancing attempt?

At this stage I feel happy voting Sprontanic.

Unvote, vote: sprontanic.

[Patrick]

Sprontanic - Your mechanism may work, I haven't checked it in huge detail, but it becomes redundant once we are past the random stage, which we certainly are now. Once again, I don't think anyone was ever advocating random lynches, I know at least I certainly wasn't. Now we have some leads, our lynch is not going to be random.
Brutal assassin's change of stance also interests me. I'm sure he'll explain it to us in more detail.
Mike - really this is getting beyond a joke now. I have NEVER in my admitedly short time on this site, insulted someone in a game, and I don't intend to start here.
You seem to be saying that lynching on day 1 always leads to an innocent being lynched. This is quite obviously false. I surely don't have to point to any number of games where scum have been lynched day 1.

[Patrick]

Ok guys.. this game is going at breakneck speed, so maybe a few just need to chill a second. This game has been open less than 48 hours. I seriously don't expect Arafax to login and spring the deadline on us very soon. I know it's 100 mph mafia but still, no town can be expected to come up with a decent lynch in that amount of time. Obv we'll know more about this in later days.
My opinion on sprontanic has changed, his large post about no lynches and the mathmatics of it, is kind of making me feel misguided townie. If he's scum, he would be playing very dilligently to come out with all that. I have a similar impression of mike.
Romanus I'm still a bit suspicious of. I want to ask you Romanus, have you played mafia on any other site before this?
Eye of mordor is also not looking great, due to the lack of posting.

[Patrick]

mikanoff wrote:
First, Patrick said that I didn't pay attention to game.
Later, he said that he was wrong, and he voted me because I voted no lynch right off... but other people voted no lynch before me!!!!!

I had to vote for one of the ppl wanting no lynch, I couldn't vote for all at once. Since I've now moved on to Romanus to some extent, I don't think your reason is very good. I think you're getting sucked in and refusing to budge, maybe because you misunderstood one of my posts and thought I was insulting you. We have lots of new stuff, do you not have any opinion on it?
You're right about one thing though, Rathyr defending me again is just a little disconcerting. There are probably other ppl here who don't think much of mike's reason but none of them have felt the need to repeat it several times.

[Patrick]

It's not a bad idea. Eye of Mordor has yet to say much still.

Unvote, vote: eye of mordor.

If I have to take a guess, I could conseivably see Romanus, lordy and eye of mordor as a scum group. They could have planned to start the whole no lynch discussion, with one taking one side of the argument, a second firmly on the other side and the third lurking. Romanus started the no lynch conversation but has recently stepped back a bit, allowing sprontanic to look suspect by coming out with all his maths stuff.
As early as posts 10-11 we see some possible distancing between lordy and eye of mordor.

I would like to here from:
Rathyr - on the subject of his defending me. I've seen it used a scum tactic before to soften up a townie, and as I mentioned before, I tried it myself in my last newbie game.
Romanus - as to why you aren't convinced by me and also as to whether you played on another site before.
Eye of mordor - just any content would be nice.

[Patrick]

Lordy that reaction seems a trifle over defensive, I wasn't saying you are definitely scum, I didn't vote you, I didn't Fos you, I said I could

conseivably

see you in that scum group. I read every post made in this game before making one myself.
Romanus, thats fine, so that only leaves the question about your past experience on other sites.

[Patrick]

Well lordy I didn't say there was that much to it, but since you ask I'll post some stuff.
As I said before we have posts 10-11 where you distance yourself from mordor early on. Your post 11 seemed like a big overreaction to what was obv a random vote. Why did you yell at him? To make a big show of you not being in the same category as him.

And what makes you think I'm scum just because I'm against the plan of no lynch. Do I have to vindicate my position over again?

I never said you were scum because you are against no lynch. I am against it myself.

Mainly because I saw no reason to believe that I'm scum, and certainly I do not believe myself to be scum.

You don't believe yourself to be scum? You're not sure?

And why? It's not to just say "I could see"

I see what you're saying but atm nothing is definite, so you can hardly expect me to come out and say you or anybody else is definitely scum. Alot of day 1 is looking for small things and seeing how ppl react.
And atm I can see what Bacde is saying about you lying low, although granted you're not the worst offender by any means. Still waiting on Mordor.

[Patrick]

Yes I should add myself. I'm a newbie. Completed one newbie game, currently playing in two minis and another newbie game.

[Patrick]

Changing targets is not an indication of RANDOM flailing about. Alot of ppl get poked on most day ones, and why not. We see reactions, voting patterns, create a paper trail etc. Even if it doesn't immediately give rewards, it might do later on.
Now I can see why Romanus is wary of the eye of mordor bandwagon, because towns often want a better reason to lynch someone than just low content. Still, he has been promising content in most of his posts which so far he hasn't delivered, so for now my vote stays on him. Whether he is scum or town, these 4 votes give him a good incentive to step up and start talking because if deadline hit now he would be dead.
On the topic of game setup, I've read through some minis before playing and it seems that most feature a SK and often a 3 person mafia group. If a more experienced player could confirm or contradict that would help, but obv this is only speculation.

[Patrick]

Well that last day was pretty shocking. Cop and doc dead
Firstly, I want to say that while I like the idea of this game, I think that deadline was WAY too early. As you can see, the town was in full flow and the time we were given was nothing like long enough to work out a decent lynch. I think the town is in big trouble. On the bright side, a SK is seeming less likely.
So we could look at Bacde's movements yesterday, and he was looking at lordy, and lordy has been slightly suspicious in my book, so maybe a scumgroup containing lordy decided it was time to bump Bacde off.
Along with lordy, Joker didn't post alot yesterday so I don't think poking him is really unreasonable, and also mike needs to post some real contant too. With such ridiculous deadlines, we simply can't afford to have anyone lurking.
I can't seem to quite shake off my discomfort about Rathyr. It feels bad saying this about him when he stuck up for me against mike's wild accusations, but I'm seeing alot of my own scum tells in Rathyr that I exhibited in newbie 224. He's being chummy with me, and his post about each person seems to be telling alot of them what they want to hear. If he scum. he could be subtly trying to align himself with me.

[Patrick]

I would warn against putting too much on the night kill. That turns into a WIFOM really fast. I don't think I need to explain that.

This can be a danger. And yup, once again i'm going to call upon that newbie 224 game where I was scum In that game me and my scum partner killed the player who was suspecting both of us, and when someone brought that up the next day, we too tried to cast it aside as WIFOM. I think scum could easily kill bacde and try to do exactly that. Hypothetical situation: lets say the scum group does not contain lordy. Why do they kill Bacde who was lurking somewhat and pushing suspicion onto lordy? Why not let him live and see if his suspicion continues to grow?
Wolfsbane - I may put a vote on Joker, but for now I want to hear from lordy and Rathyr.

[Patrick]

Bacde was the cop. Looks like they just got the right person to me. At least that was my first impression. They may have just had a cop vibe and got a little lucky. On the other hand, there might be what was said above. There are a lot of explinations possible.

Oh yes I agree that they probably wouldn't have guessed bacde was a cop. He didn't post alot and I didn't detect any cop vibes.
Mike - I don't jump on every wagon there is. Just the ones I think are justified. Yes I was voting for mordor when he was lynched, but I think I had every right to. He never said anything useful at all this game. Notice I haven't just jumped onto the Joker bandwagon here either. I think you have tunnel vision or something.

[Patrick]

As far as I understand it, we started in day so Bacde wouldn't have had any investigation results. The only thing about him now is that we know any opinion he gave was not coloured by any ulterior motives.

I think it's is important to look at what happened yesterday again, who pioneered and jumped on the doc lynch. The key point in this game is to vote responsibly, since the person with the most vote is prone to dieing anytime.

I'll explain again my own reason to be voting for eye of mordor: He was posting nothing useful, which in a game like this is disasterous. Frankly it's his own fault he got lynched for it. He didn't step up to defend himself.
Now I actually don't agree that you should be searching for scum on the wagon. I can easily see scum staying off it, I mean he was way out in front of everyone else, why would a scum need to jump on his wagon too? I think scum carefully stayed off it, then setting up the 'i told you so' situation the next day.
Mike - list the reasons you have for voting for me, and i'll blow them out of the water. At the moment your play is not threatening me too much, but if you're still alive late game (and I imagine any sensible scum would keep you alive) your stubborness is going to be a liability for the town (if you're pro town). I think scum could easily take advantage of you later on.

[Patrick]

I'm going to have a closer look at the BA/Romanus thing after work.
For now i'm going to

vote: mikanoff

I've cut him plenty of slack so far, but I think now he could be scum hiding underneath an act of noobishness. I can't believe that any town player would be so stubborn or obtuse or whatever else you want to call it. He's got away with giving no reasons for his vote on me (which he's stuck to practically from the start), he's posted next to no content, and if he is town, he can be used by the scum later. I want to see how he defends himself. One hint mike: repeatedly saying 'Patrick is scum' as your reason, doesn't cut it.

[Patrick]

Patrick, my reasons are the same. I think you, Rathyr and Wolfsbaneare are scum... I gave you the reasons before and I won't change my idea...yet.

So still no reasons then. What a surprise.

I see you understimate me, Patrick.... but I say yoy I am not a novice, I have played many games in other forums. I don't think I will be used by scum Smile

This is a genuine surprise.

Also, I think Patrick and Rathyr are untouchables... why? They would be scum as anybody

This I just don't understand.

[Patrick]

The BA/Romanus thing looks like a difference of opinion that's all. Funny that at the start they were on opposite sides, then both switched sides.
This from Romanus I found a bit funny,

does require some explination or rewording. I can't make heads or tales of it either. It does sound compelling, though. I want to know what it means.

Mike's last point does need some rewording, but do you really find it compelling? Do you find anything that mike has said compelling?
Maybe by saying me and Rathyr are untouchable, he means that we're difficult for him to frame as scum?
Still waiting for some decent reasons from Mike. After last day's fast deadline, i'm sure he appreciates the need to give them quickly.

[Patrick]

And what is scummy about my post 148?

[Patrick]

I think more and more you are scummy... but nobody take notice of me Sad

Ever wondered why?

I voted for eye or mordor after wolfsbane, so what? If he had voted after me, you would still accuse of us being scummy. I voted after him, because I was online after him. And my reasons for voting eye of mordor were far better than any reasons you had to vote for me. I already gave my reasons, and nobody else has said they were no good. He was lurking, and needed to talk.
What were your reasons for voting me, BEFORE I voted eye of mordor?

[Patrick]

Thanks for letting us know I want to say that although I'm not on that wagon, I think it's wrong to say ppl are trying to take advantage of his limited connectivity. He has not been posting like someone with limited connectivity.

[Patrick]

All of that is to indicate that both Patrick and Mikanoff appear scummy, but not like scum partners.

You'll need to provide reasons for why I'm scummy.

To your stuff about arguments, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. You say two scum rarely argue on day 1 because they don't want the attention, but that day 2 is different. This implies you think the thing between me and mike is staged, but then you go on to say that you don't think me and mike are scum together. I'm reading in a rush so may be misunderstanding.
If you are saying scum stage arguments on day 2, then your little thing with BA could fall under this category.

[Patrick]

Mikanoff is still acting the same as usual. He's either scum or a very bad town player. It is hard for me to decide which.
Now Romanus,you still haven't actually given any reasons as to why you find me scummy. I find it suspicious that you drop these little suggestions about without explaning them.
Mike - I will take some satisfaction in forcing you to eat your words about me after the game.

[Patrick]

Patrick seems defensive, but I think it's logical for a townie to be defensive in this 100MPH game, and he is really close to being lynched.

Eh, man I'm just asking Romanus for reasons as to why he thinks i'm scummy, so far he's just thrown that out without saying why. And how am I 'really close to being lynched?'

[Patrick]

The both of you are acting too scummy for me to decide which one.

This is you post, 261. Talking about me and Mike. This is a suspicion on me without reason.

I don't mind when someone says they have a gut feeling. As long as they say that is what it is. The only people I find get really nervous about unsubstantiated suspicion are mafia who don't like any light on them. Townies don't maind a couple votes coming their way, because they have nothing to hide.

I'm sorry but this is garbage. Nobody should accept ppl just saying 'XXX is scummy' for no reason. Neither town or scum players like it. It is exactly what Mike is doing to me; he's saying i'm suspicious without reason, and I don't like it. I don't like the way you are doing it either.
I have no objection to votes coming my way, if they have a reason behind them, which I don't think Mike's has. Definite

FoS Romanus

for that strange post.

[Patrick]

Ok, I might as well do my post of thoughts on all of the players. In no particular order:

Joker - doesn't post a great deal, but hasn't done anything too scummy that I've noticed so far. Bandwagon started on him early this day, seems to have died down and since then he seems to have gone. Probably should post more.

Mike - has basically repeated the same messages the whole game. Keeps referring me back to his prior reasons, which are crappy at best, non existent at worst. He is either mafia or bad pro town, but deciding which is difficult. A possible liability if he is pro town.

Romanus - A tricky one. My gut is telling me to be wary of Romanus. His last few posts have pinged my scumdar. In general he seems quite guarded about what he posts, but I see some small things which are adding up. End of yesterday he was at pains to make it clear that he was wary of the eye of mordor bandwagon. Today he has been involved in this debate with BA which I think its a distraction to the town. He has made a few odd posts about this Mike issue, for instance in his post 237 where he said that he found Mike's comment compelling when in fact it wasn't very good at all. I questioned him about that but don't think I ever got a reply. Now recently he seems to be subtly trying to get things away from Mike, by pointing to BA, and by saying that he finds me and Mike equally scummy (post 261) and that he can't decide between us. This almost seems like he is setting up a false dilemna. He gives no reasons for finding me scummy (which is in fact why we've been looking at mike), and he says that only mafia get jumpy when someone throws an unsubstanciated accusation at them. If we lynch mike and he is scum, I'll definitely want to look at Romanus tomorrow if i'm still around. If we lynch mike and he is town, I'm still not at ease with Romanus.

Rathyr - another difficult one. Has buddied up with me a bit, which I've already explained can be suspicious. I'm still trying to decide whether I think his defence of me is genuine or not. It's true that mike's posts have recently been taking the cake so maybe Rath is just getting annoyed at him.

Sprontanic - attracted some early suspicion, but for now I think that his no lynch idea is just his opinion and not an attempt to confuse the town.

Spectrumvoid - hasn't really caught my attention. Nothing much to indicate his alignment either way.

Wolfsbane - much the same as above. He seems slightly bandwagon happy though.

lordy - i'm not over keen on him in this game. He hasn't posted alot and has reacted overaggressively at times. His main posts today have been promising a reread. I hope he gets round to that soon.

Brutal Assassin - has been away past day or two. Seemed ok day 1 despite a pretty quick change of opinion. This day 2 I think his debate with Romanus is something of a distraction. They could be collabarating in this together but I doubt it. Awaiting his next post.

[Patrick]

I think you misunderstood was I was saying there, Mike.

[Patrick]

Well, I hardly know where to start on Romanus's post.

To answer more directly about other issues. I hardly think I took pains to bring up the EOM wagon, I simply said to be careful. It was completely painless to type:
Romanus wrote:
I am wary of this EyeofMordor wagon. We obviously have enough votes on him to make him come forward. I will reserve judgement till then. Not that one more vote would mean anything one way or the other.

I never implied you were in pain typing that Figure of speech. What I am saying is that if you are scum, that is exactly what you would have done. You would have expressed caution about that bandwagon.

The actual order of things is that I went after BA then more recently turned my attention to Patrick and Mikanoff.

Splitting hairs. My sentence never implied an order, and frankly I don't see how it is relevant anyway. But yes for the record, you most recently turned attention to myself and Mike.

Now this misrepresentation thing you are pulling. The reason I'm saying you are

subtly

getting things away from Mike, is because you are indeed doing it subtly. You're not bursting in and saying 'Hey guys, Mike is not scum' which obv would look very suspicious. You were turning attention to BA and aligning me and Mike by calling us equally scummy, and saying you were having a hard time choosing. Not an outright defence of Mike, but definitely muddying the waters.
Now the next part. You say that i'm misrepresenting you by saying you gave no reason to suspect me. The post I am referring to is your post 261. Now maybe I'm blind, but see no reason 'clearly give' for suspecting me. If it was gut instinct you didn't say so. And yes as you say, gut is a hard thing to defend against.

Patrick I expect the FOS to come down. The only reason you FOS'd me is because I dared mention your name in the same sentence as the word scum.

Do you really believe that? Mike is the one who throws out FoSes for that reason, not me. You are the one blatantly misrepresenting me here.

Your post is a strange mixture of apologising humbly to me, telling me all I said was crap, threatening me and coming out with as much jargon as possible. I'm not going to fold in the face of your threats. It would be nice if as a pro town player, I was never suspected all game, but if we still catch no scum in the process then town still loses. If I get a feeling I act on it. Don't try to threaten me with your vote. If you do vote for now, it's obviously just glorified OMGUS.

[Patrick]

I keep changing my mind about whether or not mike is scum. I just have this mental image of us lynching him, and arafax posts the scene and it's like Mike (simple townie) was lynched. His style of posting indicates noobness and lack of understanding of the game which make me think noobtown. But the content of his posts is scummy and it's true that if we lynch him and he is town, we haven't lost a useful player. Most likely he will die today but I'm not convinced either way.
I'm more inclined to think Romanus has been stalling the game than BA. He was an advocate of a no lynch plan to start with, and got the town talking about it at length, but then switched sides and left BA being attacked, and sprontalic looking dubious because of his extensive maths analysis of a game which is clearly more complicated than maths. Near the end of day 1 and continuing into day 2 he jumped on BA for his opinion and that debate has been clogging up the game somewhat, without really adding anything useful. I think someone else said this too, who it was slips my mind. Most recently Romanus has introduced the topic of scum possibly staging arguments as a means to distance each other. Discussion is good, but we risk talking too much about game theory and styles which can lead to long circular arguments when we should instead be looking for scum. Time is of the essence.

[Patrick]

I see mike is likely getting lynched here, but Romanus, don't think I'm just going to ignore you. The fact that most ppl are ignoring this in favour of just getting Mike lynched doesn't mean it's just going away. You're using alot of wiki and lawyer type speak to make your posts sound more impressive.

I'm stalling yet there are 5 votes on the guy I was subtly trying to get everyone away from. Patrick, I don't have anything against you. Why do you, time and again characterize or mischaracterize my arguments with vague statements.

I didn't say you were succesfully stalling. Just opening up discussions which may not be terribly useful.
As I said before I think mike's lynch is probably a foregone conclusion, so we may as well talk about this now. To make my points crystal clear, i'll number them and ask for an answer to each.

1. You said me and Mike were equally scummy but gave NO REASON. You later said it's gut instinct and said I was misrepresenting you by saying you had no reason. Am I to infer that whenever you give no reason it is always based on gut instinct? If I came out of the blue early on today and said 'Romanus is scummy' and nothing else, would you be happy with this?

2. You said that only mafia get nervous about unsubstanciated suspicion cast on them. Since you're a competent player and familiar with the wiki I think you know very well that this isn't true. So why say it? Trying to put suspicion on me because I questioned you saying i'm scummy?

3. Do you think threatening me as you did in post 279 is pro town behaviour?

4. We could back again to this little beauty:

Patrick I expect the FOS to come down. The only reason you FOS'd me is because I dared mention your name in the same sentence as the word scum.

You avoided commenting on this in your last post. Do you really for one second believe this is true? You are either deliberately misrepresenting me or completely misjudging me as a player and person.

5. Would you say that the day 1 topic of no lynch was particularly useful to the town? Again, since you are booked up on wiki, I imagine you would have known all along that no lynch is a poor move for the town.

Please answer to these points in your next post, instead of trying to shut me up. I'm not sure if you're scum or not, but every time you try and confuse me further is another worry for me about you.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I believe that you are town. Your inability to see your own mistakes concerns me, but I do not believe it to be scummy, more just a pride thing.

Well again, this looks like a gross misjudgement of my character, but maybe not relevant to the game. Nevertheless I'm going to point out that throughout this game I've had many suspicions, and they've changed many times, so obv I can admit it if I think i'm barking up the wrong tree. Throughout the game I think i've poked lordy, sprontalic, you, Rathyr, mike and eye of mordor. Some of those suspicions linger, some I dropped. So I would appreciate it, if you don't assume that I'm maintaining an attack on you just to fuel my ego or something.
I think you left out the point about you saying only mafia get worried about unsubstanciated suspicion on them btw.
Mike is probably the play today in that even if he is town, we've removed a probable liability, and there is a chance he's scum.
Spectrumvoid, you don't need to wait for tomorrow to post your thoughts. The lynch for today is pretty much settled and for all we know you may die overnight. Why not speak up now?

If I am still around tomorrow, I'll be looking at Romanus and possible partners (and yes with an open mind believe it or not). I'm not going to stick to my suspicion if I'm changing my mind. As someone said before flexibility is important.
Since I've put the preview up I've noticed rath asking about lordy and Joker, and I second that question. Where on earth are they? Lordy promised a reread ages ago.

[Patrick]

It's so easy to imagine some scum just lurking their way along and watching the more vocal players rip themselves to shreds.

[Patrick]

Interesting view. My opinion is that his buddies would see mike is struggling and probably throw him under the bus.

[Patrick]

Patrick: I'm watching the fireworks too. I find it amusing that people who I think are townies are so intent on slugging each other.

Amusing? Not a cause for concern? I can imagine scum would find it amusing but I don't know why a pro town player would.

[Patrick]

If your intent was to rile me you have indeed succeeded. Hyper sensitive? You have to be picky in mafia games. You have to look for these things. Ppl do make slips. Scum aren't just going to come out and drop some whopping huge tell for us to all pick up on. If you have some issue with the way I play, then just kill me tonight.

[Patrick]

Still before that, you could do worse than come up with an answer to my point (2).

[Patrick]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

More than ever I hope mike is scum.

[Patrick]

Romanus - I'm not talking about suspicion, i'm talking about

unsubstanciated

suspicion. That bothers town players.

Wolfsbane - I see your point. I am indeed one of those in doubt. But even if he is pro town, mike is as good as a mafia asset, because he only votes for me. That could be very dangerous for us in an endgame. I am also suspicious of Romanus, as i'm sure you've noticed, and contrary to what I said before I think it is possible that him and BA staged the whole thing to waste time and confuse the town. Upon finding out that ppl thought this, they quickly dropped it. Scum abandoning their ploy? Or just town players thinking of the good of the town? I don't know.

[Patrick]

Is Patrick one of them? I'm thinking not. IF mikanoff is town, I think Patrick is way too gleeful to be scum. On the other hand, if mikanoff is scum, Patrick could very well be scum too, as primary "thrower".

Scum often throw one of their own under the bus, when that player is struggling. At the time when I attacked mikanoff, he was not under such intolerable pressure. I'm more inclined to think that if mike is scum, scum joined the wagon late. Unless they are still trying to save him of course.

I will be happy with the future lynch of the responsibles of my death.

I don't think we have that many lynches left

[Patrick]

dang simul posting eh

Yes, and it was me who brought up the whole idea of staged arguments by scum partners. It would not have entered your mind had I not brought it up. It sounds like a WIFOM, but really, how smart would it be for scum to stage an argument, and also talk about staged arguments at the same time.

It wouldn't have entered my mind? Cmon.
I could see scum talking about staged arguments in general to get a feel for what the town think of them. Likely ploy? Good ploy? Suited to this type of game? Yes indeed.

[Patrick]

I'm thinking along the same lines. If we lynch mike as town, we may be at lynch and lose tomorrow. On the other hand we've got rid of a problem and I suppose the events leading up to the lynch give us some info.
If we lynch him as scum, great. Again we get some info by looking at patterns today.
If we keep him alive, we have limited time to come up with a good lynch. We will also have to have this discussion every day.
It's a tough choice, especially when mike isn't even my top suspect now. So yeah. Still dunno. We urgently need more opinions.

[Patrick]

This is speculation and trying to outguess the mod, but i'll post it anyway.
A normal size mafia for a mini is 3 I believe. However in this game, the super fast deadlines heavily favour the scum. I don't know if Arafax took this into account or not when creating the game. If not, then we're probably screwed anyway. If he did, then he may have tried to compensate in some way, either by giving town alot of poweroles, or maybe by giving us only a 2 person mafia. If mike is lynched as town, we should certainly play like we're in lynch and lose tomorrow, even though we might not be.

[Patrick]

There are 10 alive now. If we lynch you that leaves 9, then someone gets nightkilled, that leaves 8 tomorrow. So it could never be 4 v 5 or 6 v 3. I doubt very much it's a 4 person mafia, then the result of the game would have been a foregone conclusion.

[Patrick]

Because as was said before, ppl who voted eye of mordor weren't doing it necessarily with the idea of lynching him, just to get him to talk. He didn't do this, and the deadline hammered him.
Should we be replacing lordy? I've seen him post in at least one other game but he seems to have forgotten about this one.

[Patrick]

Well we seem to have a longer day today so we might as well make use of the time.
Question for mike - can you link me to a site where you've played mafia games?
What does everyone else think we should do? Maybe we should talk about who we find suspicious and why (other than mike).

[Patrick]

Hellfire that was a big spurt of activity!
Firstly I think that the orgininal vote changes were strange. Rathyr votes for Joker because he posts little and is unhelpful. True, but is he really less helpful than mike? Wolfsbane's vote for lordy and then quick change to Joker are no less odd. I agree with whoever said that Romanus looks suspicious here, I mean first he is telling us how difficult it is to decide on Mike, the next minute he is practically falling over himself to put a third vote on Joker. He comes off as oppotunistic. He also is keen to talk about anything other than himself (post 373).
I think that Joker's vote was OMGUS, and him saying Rathyr's 'if I die tonight' is a scumtell is stretching it. I do agree that Rathyr's claim came too early though. There is no reason to assume that other poweroles don't exist in the town.
Finally Mike's recent posts are doing nothing to make me want to keep him alive.

[Patrick]

Ok that I would have to agree with. I don't like ppl being too noncommital.
I might not be able to get on much in the next 16 hours due to having ppl round. Bad timing if the deadline strikes because this is interesting, but not much I can do.
After hitting preview: My thanks to Arafax

[Patrick]

I think he is just glad that he has a small chance of surviving.

Probably, it was his post 402 that caught my attention a bit. He just looks so out of place
Whatever happens tonight, I think town needs to have a good look at Romanus tomorrow. I'm not sure I agree that he is scum with Joker, that would make him unvoting Mike and voting Joker hard to explain. I can see scum trying to keep Mike alive if he is town, but not at the expense of losing one of their own. Wolfsbane as well, why would he vote Joker if they are scum together? At the moment i'm erring more on the side of town for Wolfsbane.

[Patrick]

There is perhaps one person I would rather is lynched over mike and that is Romanus. He comes off as very scummy, many of my reasons are already posted, but I don't believe him springing on the Joker wagon was anything other than oppotunistic. His answer to this is the one I would expect scum to give.
I think that lynching Joker over Mike today would be a bad idea. Compared to the time mike has had to defend himself or even come up with a sensible post, Joker has had basically nothing. He's been ambushed at the 11th hour, and I'm sure there is at least one scum doing this.
Rathyr: I know what you're saying, but right now I can't see wolfbane selling out his scum buddy in that way, when he could easily allow mike to get lynched. Maybe it is a devilishly clever ploy, but I don't think so.
It is true that this vote swing has lead to more discussion, which is a good thing. I'm just giving my suspicions.

[Patrick]

I would really like to see that list that has already been posted on my incredibly scummy behavior. Cuz I haven't seen it.

Believe me, if I had the time to do it, I would post it now. As it is, you'll have to go back through the thread and read them.
Brief summary: You often have delayed answering some points made my me in the past, forcing me to ask 2 or 3 times to get the answers. Your answers to my numbered points, were basically what I would expect from a scum, and yes, this is a rushed reply, so I can't go back and pick out the exact points at my leisure. When questioned about alot of things you just backtrack, saying you're learning, you were wrong, you apologise etc. Your post saying that only mafia get jumpy about unsubstanciated suspicion on them definitely rubbed me the wrong way.
Recently you've just jumped an the joker wagon, which struck me as very oppotunistic. I think your post of speculation about whether Mike is a good lynch was a springboard to make it seem more acceptable when you did unvote him. More from me tomorrow if the thread is open still.

[Patrick]

Bah! Go town!

[Patrick]

That was painful to watch when I knew Romanus was scum. Did nobody read back those arguments between me and him? Nobody pause to wonder why it was me that got nightkilled night 2? Bah
Romanus did well to smooth talk his way out on day 4 while staying totally silent day 3. I suspected spectrumvoid of being his pertner after I died, lordy i thought was possible. I sure as hell knew it wasn't Rathyr

My biggest mistake was not pushing harder for the Romanus lynch on day 2, especially when I suspected I might die at night. The mikanoff thing sucked me in. In the end I was hardly caring what his alignment was, just wanted him dead Good game all.

[Patrick]

Heh Rathyr, I know What was probably needed was for others to actually read back through arguments, whereas I'm willing to bet most ppl just skimmed them and missed the important bits. Romanus is quite good at putting up alot of fog with irrelevant stuff such as trying to mess with your mind

The setup worked decently well. I know on paper we got hammered, but as already mentioned, it could have turned out quite differently. Maybe next time you should warn that you would be very harsh on lurkers and replace them with impunity.

[Patrick]

Vote: Brutal Assassin

[Patrick]

So Romanus. This no lynch discussion you started? Did you believe in it or did you know all long the idea sucks? Looking back I got the impression you were just using it to distract the town and make sprontalic and BA look bad.