Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Sleepless Assassin]

Void. When you have a town case trying to outweigh a scum case, the scumm case is kind of relavent.

Fish, it's down to macro and DDD for today's lynch. DDD is a slight scum read for me and Macro is a strong town read. Easy choice.

[Voidedmafia]

A.) Relevant*

B.) How are you not getting that I was outweighing (or at least attempting to) the scum case? I mean, yeah, sure, I never mentioned the scum case (though the original draft did), but do you really think that wasn't an/the intention of that post?

[4nxi3ty]

And so, hah, I just see that my replaced slot had the hammer vote on either Macrophage or DDD earlier. Yet no one seems to have been pushing for action, or for Alice to remove her lone single vote off of Sleepless Assassin. That's....well, that's just downright bizarre.

not sure of what your getting at here. Do you think we should've goaded alice into hammering? Or do you want us to realize that your vote is still on SA?

[Fishythefish]

Macro replaced a slot widely regarded as scummy, including by me. At L-1 (pretty sure), he claimed "non-VT", and when pressured further claimed VT - opinions vary on whether this sequence is scummy, townish or null. He wasn't lynched. In my opinion, he has been consistently townish, but many disagree. I also am coming to the conclusion that there just hasn't been a concerted push anywhere else today that I can see as coming from scum, and I really doubt the scumteam would just let Macro die this easily.

So, you think Macro is town.

DDD is a decent lynch. I'm not sure that anyone thinks he's hugely scummy - Rhinox comes closest, but hasn't said much about anything of late, and I suspect doesn't have any confidence in anything right now. On the other hand, there's no reason I can see to think he's town. Personally, I think he's mildly scummy and I'm very much enthused by the way his wagon is packed with townie goodness.

His wagon is: Rhinox, you, and Sleepless Assassin

Why do you think Rhinox or SA are town?

1. Yes, I do.
2. I've felt like they're scumhunting and believing what they're saying all game. For Rhinox, there are a couple of specific things I don't think he'd have done as scum - one early when he stopped arguing with someone, and today I think he'd be trying to take control of the town.

[Voidedmafia]

And so, hah, I just see that my replaced slot had the hammer vote on either Macrophage or DDD earlier. Yet no one seems to have been pushing for action, or for Alice to remove her lone single vote off of Sleepless Assassin. That's....well, that's just downright bizarre.

not sure of what your getting at here. Do you think we should've goaded alice into hammering? Or do you want us to realize that your vote is still on SA?

Alice unvoted...

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Debonar Danny DiPietro (6) - rhinox, fishythefish, Sleepless Assassin, DCLXVI
Macrophage (4) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, 4nxi3ty
DCLXVI (2) - kortul, Macrophage
Sleepless Assassin (1) - Magua

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 3rd, 6PM PST

[kortul]

I actually agree that this post of Macro doesn't feel like coming from scum,

Then why was your vote still on him until you swapped over to me?

When i went to sleep there was no unvote from Macro yet. And when the next day i checked the forum, you already switched. Also, that post didn't make Macro town, i just view him as less scummy now.

The people I'm leaning town on are rhinox, fishy and macro

Scum, DDD most of the people on his wagon are town I think so I am sheeping them by being on it. not sure about 4nxi3ty either but I can't back that up. Otherwise I have no idea about anyone's alignment despite having read through the thread twice now. Which takes forever with how long it is.

So, DDD is scum for you because most people on his wagon are town for you. Without you mentioning your thoughts on what's going on, how we should guess this? Rhinox is town for you since day 1; SA was for you on scummy side yesterday and you didn't mention him today; fishy for you was "scumbuddy of LS" yesterday, and you didn't mention him Day 2 until this post. When/why did fishy become town for you? Rhinox today said that the reads from DDD set him up "to be able to vote just about anyone", and i fully agree with this, but your absence of reads/thoughts allows you the same opportunity.

And i would like to hear your answer to my question, it may help me to understand you better:

-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strong

DCLXVI

, i don't remember you commenting on Macro claim earlier, but this post implies you believed the claim before. What are the reasons for your opinion change (not on Macro himself, but on his claim)?

P.S. Macro, may i ask you what is your gender? Hope i am not rude, i am just confused sometimes by your behavior, and that may influence my read.

[Voidedmafia]

OH, derp, she didn't. Never mind.

[kortul]

I took a close look at Macro case against DCLXVI, and one of his points prompted me to check something.

-One thing that makes me hesitant about calling macro scum because the players he replaced didn't play well is that

if I had been another player in the game, I would have definitely found funkybike's actions scummy

...yet I now know he wasn't scum... I other words, I'm open to the possibility that the people macro replaced just sucked, as opposed to being scum.

Funkybike:

This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt.

If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.

DDD

- are those the examples of Amished tell? If yes, did you miss it during reread? If no, what is the difference from Macro case? I still not sure that i understand this tell correctly, and i don't believe in it without firsthand examples, but this fits your explanation.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sorry about being away for most the weekend; no matter what Macro wants I'm not claiming without being at L-1 with someone expressing intent to hammer. I still intend to see him swinging from a noose and I'm not going to hand his scumpartners bonus information just because he asked.

@kortul, it depends on the context of those situations; was DCL asked a question that would make him refer to funkybike's play and had I already explained the Amished tell for those not in the know?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh and Magua the long and short of it is that Rhinox and Fishy both have double votes and so despite the fact that no more than four people really think I'm scum I'm apparently under the gun. Rhinox tossed down his vote and has completely gone missing from the game for the latter half of the day; Fishy by his own words only finds me "moderately scummy" but votes me because he's too lazy to find someone who is actually scummy and Macro is a town read of his; SA is basically identical to Fishy except at least he made a token push on 4nxiety before lazily slopping a vote onto me. Macro's vote on me was shameless self-preservation and I think DCL just got bored and wanted to force a claim. All in all it's a terrible wagon populated by at least two scum and a few negligent town players.

[hiplop]

DDD's death isn't something I'm against, i was pretty vocal early on , I think. I'm open to hammer, just I believe we should wait a bit.

[Fishythefish]

Oh and Magua the long and short of it is that Rhinox and Fishy both have double votes and so despite the fact that no more than four people really think I'm scum I'm apparently under the gun. Rhinox tossed down his vote and has completely gone missing from the game for the latter half of the day; Fishy by his own words only finds me "moderately scummy" but votes me because he's too lazy to find someone who is actually scummy and Macro is a town read of his; SA is basically identical to Fishy except at least he made a token push on 4nxiety before lazily slopping a vote onto me. Macro's vote on me was shameless self-preservation and I think DCL just got bored and wanted to force a claim. All in all it's a terrible wagon populated by at least two scum and a few negligent town players.

That's the truth for me, except that it's failure despite trying rather than laziness. Also, the more I play this game the more I value the company on the wagon over the target, and the company here is pretty damn good.

Who are the "at least two scum" on your wagon? I can't see any of them in your summary except for Macro.

Speaking of shameless self-preservation, I think DDD is guilty of it in a much more scummy way than Macro. DDD has been going after Macro's slot for a long time, based on exactly one thing - the Amished-tell. But since DDD has been the leading contender for the lynch, he's really ramped up his attacks:

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target.

Yep, this is pretty clearly a five scum game and you've nailed our team; kudos.

I think this is a pretty blatant towntell from Macro - no scum ever comes out and says "Yeah, my whole wagon is scum" - that's just not the way you defuse a wagon. This? It's clearly frustrated town. But DDD's reaction is a snarky little dig at Macro. He can't actually call him scummy - just points out that he's wrong, and doesn't care about alignment.

DDD then attacks the notion that Macro's claim is town, culminating in

I’m not saying he’s scum because of his claim; I’m just refuting the idea that he has to be town because of his claim. Try this on for size: he’s scum and he makes the non-VT claim to see if he can shake his wagon without opening himself up for a counterclaim; when that doesn’t work instead of making a claim that doesn’t work or gets counterclaimed he revises it to a VT claim knowing that people like you will probably defend his unorthodox play and he still might not get lynched because a VT claim is not the instant death sentence some suggest it is.

OK, fair enough. But this seems really incongruous:

I’ve already trapped him with his own words; he knows what a vanilla townie SHOULD have done and yet he has no explanation for what he did other than, "uh, but I'm vanilla". Busted.

So, how does DDD read Macro's claim? Well, on the one hand he's not saying he is scum because of his claim. On the other, he's trapped Macro, who's outright denied that's what he's do as a VT. So, this was a change of stance after Macro said something stupid, right? Nope; from DDD's posts, he was thinking both in 764. He defended this attack like so:

Fishy: But the point kinda gets turned around, as that then implies that he's not a VT because he didn't claim VT right off the bat. And since I find him being a power role to personally be highly unlikely, what does that make him then?

I don't really know what you mean by this. Put simply - why is it that you think Macro can't be a VT who decided to claim non-VT to save his skin? As far as I can see, that's neither stupid nor antitown (unlike claiming any specific non-VT, which is both), and nothing he's said implies it's something he wouldn't do.

I guess he did use the phrase "generally" in his point but I think the point still stands because it reveals that he made a conscience decision to not behave like a VT and when it's been brought up about why he'd do such a thing he's been all mumbles about being town and using circular logic.

Hip is probably right. This day has run it's course.

unvote, vote DDD

Paraphrase: Somebody else is bored; good excuse to get a town player lynched instead of my scum partner Macro; got it.

DDD is still bullshitting here. Nothing Macro has said remotely reveals that he made a conscious decision not to behave like a VT, but the second half of the accusation is particularly bad. The drive of Macro's thinking for me is clearly this:

I agree that the PR-followed by VT claim was bad, and if people still thought I was scum for that, I would at least understand, but I am happy I did it, as it ended up stopping me from being lynched right after replacing in and

I hate it when people say that I'm scum having done it without considering me doing it as town.

The sentiment that screams at me from Macro's posting is "yeah, ok, there's a scum explanation. But what's wrong with the town explanation (which is true)?". I think accusing Macro of mumbling about being town and using ciricular logic is willfully missing the point of his posting.

Also, note the little dig at SA here. He's voting DDD, so he's a scumpartner of Macro. No need to think about SA himself to discredit the argument. If he had, he'd have noticed that SA has had DDD in his top few scumreads for a very long time. Then there's prod at Macro here:

Sorry about being away for most the weekend; no matter what Macro wants I'm not claiming without being at L-1 with someone expressing intent to hammer. I still intend to see him swinging from a noose and I'm not going to hand his scumpartners bonus information just because he asked.

I read DDD, and I just don't believe the strength of scumread on Macro he is expressing at this point in the game. It feels really, really forced.

It's possible I'm being a bit unfair on DDD here. I'm a little bit drunk and feeling ranty because I'm so sure Macro is town and somehow there's a big wagon on him.

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: It's not rude of you to ask. I'm male, but what difference does it make to you?

@Hiplop: What are you waiting for?

Intent to hammer. Debonair, claim.

[Magua]

So I've read through D1 so far.

I think Macrophage is town, for pretty much, as far as I can tell, the exact same reasons that voidedmafia thinks he's scum.

My biggest scumread? Fishythefish. God, every time I see that avatar I'm now saying to myself, "Here comes another post where he says that he can go either way, or that he's not sure." Way too much equivocating, vacillating, way too little in terms of actual reads or trying to do shit. God, every single post. Just comparing his posts here to the ones in Last Will III shows just this huge change -- in LW III he makes reads, takes positions, doesn't throw his vote around every which way, actually pushes on people, etc.

UNVOTE: Sleepless Assassin
VOTE: Fishythefish

Think Rhinox is probably town. Think DCL is probably town, but this is shakier than Rhino.

Think hiplop and DDD are both wastes of space, but unsure if they're town wastes of space or scum pretending to be wastes of space.

[Fishythefish]

Rereading my play, the above looks like a pretty big exaggeration to me. But I suppose the core's not totally wrong - I agree I've changed my mind a fair amount this game, and that I've not had any really firm scumreads I've been happy to push for a long period of time. Why are either of those things scumtells?

[kortul]

I am at vacation for a week, but hopefully will have access to internet at least in the evenings.

@Macro - some of you actions and reactions are strange to me, in real life i saw them either from a females, or very emotional people. Guess you are emotional then. I am still trying to figure out how to read your actions.

@DDD - as to the context, this were first impressions after the initial reread, without questions asked, and amished-tell was already explained before, so most likely he was aware that it exists. What would be your answer now?

@DCLXVI - disappearing isn't an answer to questions.

[Macrophage]

@Magua: I do get paranoid about Fishy, but I don't agree that being unsure is a scumtell and a lot of his posts look like town. Also, why do you think DCL is town?

@Kortul: The same thing has been said about me on my main too hehe. What have you gained from your answer? How would it have been different if I had said I was female?

[Voidedmafia]

DDD's death isn't something I'm against, i was pretty vocal early on , I think. I'm open to hammer, just I believe we should wait a bit.

Macro already asked, but what exactly are you waiting for?

[Magua]

Rereading my play, the above looks like a pretty big exaggeration to me. But I suppose the core's not totally wrong - I agree I've changed my mind a fair amount this game, and that I've not had any really firm scumreads I've been happy to push for a long period of time. Why are either of those things scumtells?

Because they're not how you play as town (see: Last Will III). You're not a noncommittal town player, and here you are. See also: Trader Mafia, where scum-you throws your vote around willy-nilly and in general tried to spread mud everywhere. That's what I'm seeing here.

@Magua: I do get paranoid about Fishy, but I don't agree that being unsure is a scumtell and a lot of his posts look like town. Also, why do you think DCL is town?

Being unsure isn't a scumtell. Being unsure over 40 pages and two Days for fishy is a scumtell.

DCL read is two parts:
First, the general jump on funkybike didn't seem to have any anti-pressure that you'd expect if it was on scum. It was a lot of people being, "Welp, seems fine to me," makes me think that slot is town. DCL's subsequent replacement in seems very genuine. I'm a sucker for someone who puts in work, which DCL has put it in spades, but I find myself agreeing with most of his reads, as well.

[4nxi3ty]

Think DCL is probably town, but this is shakier than Rhino.

Think hiplop and DDD are both wastes of space, but unsure if they're town wastes of space or scum pretending to be wastes of space.

what have these two done or not done to convince you of this?

DCL's subsequent replacement in seems very genuine. I'm a sucker for someone who puts in work, which DCL has put it in spades, but I find myself agreeing with most of his reads, as well.

which reads do you agree with and why?



would like to see a post from rhinox before any sort've claiming/hammering happens.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Rereading my play, the above looks like a pretty big exaggeration to me. But I suppose the core's not totally wrong - I agree I've changed my mind a fair amount this game, and that I've not had any really firm scumreads I've been happy to push for a long period of time. Why are either of those things scumtells?

Because they're not how you play as town (see: Last Will III). You're not a noncommittal town player, and here you are. See also: Trader Mafia, where scum-you throws your vote around willy-nilly and in general tried to spread mud everywhere. That's what I'm seeing here.

I'd link you to the Scummies Winvitational if it hadn't been swallowed up by the site crash as why I disagree with your assesment of Ftf.

~~

@DDD - as to the context, this were first impressions after the initial reread, without questions asked, and amished-tell was already explained before, so most likely he was aware that it exists. What would be your answer now?

Such unprompted behavior would constitute a violation of the Amished-tell, yes. I’m not sure how applicable it is after it’s been mentioned though; one would presume that DCL read the game and saw the tell and thus knowing it’s a bothersome point did it anyways. However, I have actually caught scum in the same game committing the tell even after it’s been explained. I think it comes down to whether you think DCL actually read the game or not; if he did read the game then I’d doubt its efficacy; if you think for some reason he skimmed the game and missed that section it could still be considered relevant. I tend towards the latter and given Macro being all kinds of in favor of a DCL lynch; I’m all kinds of opposed to it.

~~

Preview-Edited: Holding off a claim at 4nxiety’s request.

[Magua]

I'd link you to the Scummies Winvitational if it hadn't been swallowed up by the site crash as why I disagree with your assesment of Ftf.

That's not exactly helpful to me, you understand. Nor do I see why you feel the need to defend Fishy at this point.

Think DCL is probably town, but this is shakier than Rhino.

Think hiplop and DDD are both wastes of space, but unsure if they're town wastes of space or scum pretending to be wastes of space.

what have these two done or not done to convince you of this?

Which two? DCL and Rhino, or hiplop and DDD?

I'm assuming you mean hiplop and DDD, since I've already talked about DCL and Rhino seems to be

marked for death

a universal town read. hiplop's posts have been a string of one-liners with any thought that may be behind them very well hidden. He's voted most of the game, doesn't hold his vote long, and doesn't hold strong stances beyond "Whoever I'm voting right now is scum." Yet, unlike Fishy, these don't automatically mean hiplop-scum for me.

DDD is similar, but with less posts. Has more reads, but a lot of his posts just ring false to me, particularly in regards to some newer player like Macrophage doing something newby-stupid and DDD going for cheap shots rather than understanding. A lot of unhelpful sarcasm. Yet I know from sad experience that DDD does that shit as town, so I'm more just aggravated than wanting to hammer him at this point.

But if I can't get any traction on fishy, I would far, far, far, far rather hammer DDD than DCL or Macrophage at this point.

[4nxi3ty]

DCL's subsequent replacement in seems very genuine. I'm a sucker for someone who puts in work, which DCL has put it in spades, but I find myself agreeing with most of his reads, as well.

which reads do you agree with and why?

[4nxi3ty]

also if you don't mind me asking... you haven't really taken a stance on me, voided, kortul, or sa? I understand focussing on ddd and macro since they are the top wagon; but why focus more on fishy, hiplop, rhinox and dcl than the rest of us?