/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[DeasVail]

I think we should lynch CTD. Him asking for a massclaim is pretty scummy, especially considering how I've seen him play before.

Vote: CTD

[DeasVail]

Empire, is your vote on me serious?

[DeasVail]

Oh, and Tierce, why you're voting for me would be cool too.

[DeasVail]

eh, whatever

Unvote: CTD

Vote: Empire

[DeasVail]

This is hilarious survivalistic crap. Chrome wants to correct "survivalistic" to "surrealistic", and that seems like a good alternative.

Never mind that Deas has absolutely no input on why early massclaim would be scummy, whether it should be done or not and why, and how Empire's (Deas's scumread and Deas's vote) opinion of CTD's stance in D1 massclaim affects Deas's own read.

Have you played with CTD/seen CTD play before? (I'm assuming you have, but just checking)

[DeasVail]

In 24, I make it pretty clear that I've seen CTD play before. As far as I know, he asks for a massclaim every game (at least every game I've seen him play and Empire brings this up too).

And no, I don't think asking for a massclaim is scummy, especially not in CTD's case, if that clears anything up.

Empire either doesn't read my post or decides I'm a juicy target. I'm not really sure which, but the vote on me seems very serious for something not thought out very well?

Tierce, I'd probably expect moreso to consider my post since she knows how I approach RVS.

I still want to think about this though.

PEdit: Well yeah, that's the point.

[DeasVail]

Basically, I'd expect confusion from my post and a desire for clarification rather than "DV is scum!", which I think would be more likely from scum.

[DeasVail]

What do you mean?

I don't think I'm being anti-town, because I think looking back it should be clear where I was going with it.

PEdit: Obviously the second?

[DeasVail]

Tierce, why are you pushing this backtracking thing? It's not very absurd to suspect someone for stupid reasons in RVS, and the bit I tag on the end should make it ok.

[DeasVail]

Well I never thought that CTD was scummy for 'wanting' a massclaim. It wasn't exactly a joke, but I thought I might get some useful responses to it. I know that it's getting close to purposely acting scummy, but the bit at the end was supposed to cover that.

[DeasVail]

Tierce, why didn't you consider that I was trying to attract attention?

[DeasVail]

Whoa, hold on Tierce? You're buying that? Because that just made him go from meh to scum on my list.

Do you think that I'm making things up as I go, or that I planned this all as scum?

[DeasVail]

The presumptuous statement is more to that I've seen you as both alignments make a fuss over players who say "if X flips Scum then Y is next". Saying that DV, your opening post was scummy, which you now admit was on purpose (trying to attract attention). So you presuming that we would read through your bit is what I found ironic.

I still don't get it, sorry.

[DeasVail]

Yes, my vote is serious: see above. Also, in response to your #63, how is anyone supposed to get the impression that your vote wasn't serious? From when I read it, it damn well looked like you thought CTD suggesting a massclaim seemed scummy and I thought that it was jarring as fuck that you were making what seemed to be a serious vote based on something that should be null at worst. I'm not going to sit and limply ask you why you posted something I'm already perceiving as scummy -- if I see something I think is scummy, I'm not going to waste my time and I'm just going to vote for it.

The thought was that me saying it was scummy, specifically mentioning how CTD has played before, would reveal that I know CTD asks for a massclaim every game.

PEdit: I'm not sure. I still want to think that scum would be more likely to focus on attacking without realising the above, but I'm beginning to think it was too subtle with Tierce and Empire not likely being scum together.

I've got something else to do now, but I'll decide what I think later.

[DeasVail]

Um ok, it didn't come across that way at all to me given what seemed to be a serious tone. What do you think of Konowa's and Llamarble's votes on you? Do you see them as being opportunistic as well or something else?

Konowa's leaning town so far. I think his vote for me was ok, but we'll see. Llamarble's vote I don't know what to think of, but I don't like how he hasn't done anything with it after your unvote.

Why do you think he's scum?

[DeasVail]

Unvote: Empire
Vote: Llamarble

I don't really get the problem with 82 (as far as the whole 'look how town I am' thing goes), but the others things are alright.

[DeasVail]

What things?

The other things Empire said.

[DeasVail]

Whoa, hold on Tierce? You're buying that? Because that just made him go from meh to scum on my list.

Do you think that I'm making things up as I go, or that I planned this all as scum?

Johhog can you answer this please?

[DeasVail]

Sorry, thought I did. You're making up things as you go.

But you don't think I'm scum?

[DeasVail]

I don't know, I think that your Penguin vote is weird considering there's someone else who you actually think is scum. (I don't really imagine you having a super strong read from that one post, but I could be wrong I guess)

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure that saying that I've seen CTD play before (he asks for a massclaim every game) means something was up?

[DeasVail]

Llamarble, I think it should matter who's voting for me and who isn't, but ok.

Penguin, what was your reaction when you saw my first post?

Empire is leaning town for now, but I'm not too strong on it.

Llamarble is still scummy. My other scumread is probably Johhog for saying that I'm basically concocting new reasoning for my first post (which means I'm scum or just really strange town and although I'm a little strange, I don't think I'm that much!), which I think is kind of bad, but I think it's worse because of the fact that he decided to stay on Penguin despite having me as an exciting new scumread to push. Hmm, as I'm typing this I'm feeling more eh about it, so maybe not, but we'll see.

Everyone else is somewhere between meh and supertown.

[DeasVail]

Empire, you were great in that game (or scum were just really bad I don't know!), but take credit where it's due. All that matters is winning, not how fast you won, and you basically made it so that town couldn't lose. (I'll feel really silly now if you're scum here)

Benmage,

Benmage summed it up pretty succintly in #104

but to add onto that -- I really don't like his list of reads and the rationale behind them in #82 + #96. I think they're pretty shallow and he sometimes focuses on things that aren't alignment indicative at all. For example, Benmage "commenting on relevant things" doesn't seem like anything that would even remotely shed light on his alignment and the CTD scumread for the link within a "short thought" post gave me a wat reaction. It just reminds me of his early play in TM 2012 White Flag where he mostly just commented on meaningless things and his scumhunting came off as superficial.

Nacho, what do you think of Johhog's sudden unvote? It seems like he just wasn't paying attention, since I'm pretty sure I mentioned how I'd seen CTD massclaim before a couple of times, and I think he would maybe be more likely to pay attention as scum? Or at least put more effort into making sure what he was saying was backed up.

Anyway, I feel pretty stuck for scumreads right now (maybe Penguin, but I don't think that's anything more than gut) and I'm getting unsure about Llamarble. His response to the wagon is a lazy one in a way, which is what I expect from town (I think scum are more likely to actively counter the points against them), and although I'm worried that this is Sanjay all over again, his responses focusing on his own play and how he feels about it (e.g. 177, 179, 183) remind me of how I've responded to wagons on me-town.

I don't know though. I'll see if I can do a proper reread and pick up anything.

[DeasVail]

Argh, scum please be more scummy.

Unvote: Llamarble

Vote: Penguin

[DeasVail]

because i hate australians.

</3

[DeasVail]

Penguin might actually be a solid scumread for me. Nothing else to say right now really.

[DeasVail]

Ok, so why Penguin is

but I don't really know, but I guess could be

scum! (I think this might work better for everyone)

His reaction to my vote as I was rereading was too well thought out for someone who had never seen CTD play before. Scum reading through would obviously know I was town (and I think would pretty much have the reaction Penguin had) and adding on to this the fact that I'm pretty sure it was clearly a bad idea to continue considering the reactions to it, and it makes Penguin's post feel like saying stuff just to look town.

I'm going have to skim the last page (i.e. not read Shadoweh's post), but I'm still not really sure about Llamarble, and CTD I don't really find that scummy (maybe Shadow's post will change my mind), but not really town either.

And Nacho, next time you need to add a "but not DeasVail" thing to the end of it. How am I supposed to know otherwise? D:

[DeasVail]

Oh, second line should say as she was reading.

[DeasVail]

Shadoweh, CTD is still kind of null. Maybe a little scummy, but reading his posts it's like "This tells me nothing about your alignment. WHHHHYYYYY?"

I'm going to go with leaning town on N. Following his success in NY 160, I'd expect him to be more motivated as scum with this kind of playerlist (he knows that he can fool good players) and try harder to look town. Compared to here, he was just a lot more pro-town there, and that's more the kind of thing I'd expect. I don't think the reasons behind the wagon are all that bad, I just don't really agree.

[DeasVail]

Oh wait he didn't win NY 160, but he played well anyway.

/fail

[DeasVail]

And yet, this is a good chunk of the playerlist that was in Black Flag Nightless as well, both as his scumbuddies and as the Town who caught him. So no, I don't see why he should have a particular level of motivation to be playing better. Goodness knows I'd be curled up in a corner in a ball of sad if I had drawn scum.

The thing is that in NY 160 it was mentioned how he was completely different from black flag nightless (by Regfan/Empire/Both) so why not play how he did there?

[DeasVail]

I actually think my reasoning on Penguin is kind of alright though, and am surprised other people don't think anything of it?

[DeasVail]

Sorry about my lack of posting. This is the busiest part of the week for me. From what I've seen though, Llamarble's thing on Penguin is probably a better version of what I was trying to say, so yeah, vote Penguin.

[DeasVail]

Tammy, I don't know, but I think the fact that his play was apparently completely different there would help him feel more confident, and I'm a bit more leaning town than I was too.

Penguin, I meant your second post of the game (I think).

Completely caught up now. I still think Penguin-scum, and I'm still feeling ehhh about the N wagon.

Empire, why do you think it took so long for Konowa to come up with the reason for saying Tierce-town? That's the main problem I'm having right now.

[DeasVail]

I think Llamarble explained it better than me 436. There's also the fact that considering the reactions to my vote, I don't think it seemed like continuing with it was a good idea, and that's what I meant by you just saying stuff.

[DeasVail]

The main thing still is for me that I don't think it's very likely that this is the approach he'd take as scum. I'm not that sure about this and I kind of don't want to push against his wagon too hard, but it's enough for me to not be interested in the wagon.

[DeasVail]

Like, I don't understand the relevance, or anything indicative, of asking Empire why -he- thinks it took -me- "so long to come up with the reason for Tierce-Town". Phrasing (why it took Konowa so long to come up with the reason for Tierce-Town) makes it seem that you don't believe my reasoning. If this is correct, again why not address me directly about it?

I'm not really sure about it (It should probably be asking why it took so long to explain your Tierce-town post), but I'm leaning towards it being scummy because I think if town did a reaction test they'd be pretty eager to show it off after it had stopped being 'in effect' (I guess). My overall read is a bit muddled though, so I may go over it tonight, but I'm pretty happy on Penguin.

Also, I think Empire said something about it not being scummy and I thought it could be, so I was asking for his opinion on what I thought. If you have anything to say about it, you can if you want?

Shadoweh, I meant that I don't really agree with him being scum when I commented on the wagon. I don't think any vote on the wagon was particularly scummy or anything (I'm still not sure about the Penguin thing though) and I just really disagree with having things like no. of scumreads/townreads on the wagon influence my reads.

Might go over stuff later. We'll see.

[DeasVail]

Sort of read up, but read clarifying will have to happen tomorrow (hopefully).

[DeasVail]

Ok, I'm as updated as I can be with my reads and still support a Penguin lynch.

[DeasVail]

Empire, what is the most scummy thing about N?

[DeasVail]

I can't link the relevant posts right now but I urge you to go through his ISO again. It's largely contentless, he's been generally evasive when asked easy questions (e.g., check his response to my asking what he thinks about Vi's vote on him), the few reads he has given are patent bullshit (e.g., the penguin/Konowa read, which is not only transparently BS, but didn't answer the question asked about his view on penguin's alignment) and he's now spent the last few days sniping at easy shit in lieu of actually scumhunting which fits his scum meta (see: Black Flag).

Hmm, I don't know if I really have a townread on him anymore, but I'm liking my penguin scumread a bit better.

[DeasVail]

What changed your read on N?

I'm thinking that my previous theory about N doing better as scum may be naive.

[DeasVail]

I will hammer if needed before deadline.

[DeasVail]

I'm really sorry, I've been busy/lazy since uni started.

I feel ok with where my reads are at though. (I can never work out whether it's best to be open with them or closed, but if people want them I could probably post them Day 2)

[DeasVail]

I would, but I've got uni work to do tonight (which I really should have done before now)

I'll see if I can squeeze in some time, but I'm not sure.

[DeasVail]

Ooo wait. I actually think the whole thing about 1407 and wanting to post an Empire case might be pretty town. Is there a way of quickly getting Penguin run up?

Also, quick colourless reads because I finished a little earlier than expected yay!

Pretty Confident Town:

Empire
Johhog
Tammy
Tierce

Less Confident Town:

Benmage
Llamarble
N

???? (depends on stuff/still deciding):

Konowa

Reads on everyone else are pretty weak (except Penguin, but even she's not that strong). If I need to put them somewhere right now I'll decide when I have more time, but yeah, I'm a bit unsure with the lack of time and everything, but I may actually want to push harder against a N lynch. I don't know what to say though. I think N is less likely scum than I thought before so we should lynch Penguin maybe?

[DeasVail]

Ok, I'm here! And hopefully I'll be more active, but I can't say for sure. Sorry about all this.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much time on this today, so going over ISOs will need to wait (I might go over CTD's actually, we'll see).

First, I think I'll have Konowa as a scumread. Basically I've been waiting for him to actually care about me accusing him of making up the reason for calling Tierce town after he made such a fuss over me asking for Empire's thoughts instead of his (which was also just weird by the way) but he hasn't. Why make such a fuss over it if he doesn't actually want to respond to my accusation?

Also, I actually think CES's attack on Vi is pretty town, and thinking about it I may have Vi as a scumread now too.

Here's the thing. I picked up on Johhog's softclaim and I think I'm usually pretty clueless about these things, so I think it's pretty likely that Vi would have especially if he was actually interested in reading Johhog as CES said (I actually don't remember this so I'm just trusting CES for now). Also, 756 feels pretty forced and "look how town I am".

[DeasVail]

Vi, I wasn't sure whether what CES was saying about you having particular reason to read Johhog's posts was correct. Maybe that isn't such a valid point though.

But then there's 807, where the whole 'spinning webs of elaborate fake confusion' feels exaggerated because I'm pretty sure it's the type of thing scum would want to do, and without much difficulty either.

Eh, Vi seems kind of town from her ISO, but I actually find that post scummy.... I'll sort it out later.

So, I was distracted and am running out of time again, and the busiest time of my week is coming up, so I'll say the stuff I want to say now.

Vote: Konowa

as he's probably my most solid scumread. I maybe support the Vi wagon too. CES is leaning town (maybe I'll ISO him later to check, but I'm pretty sure that's where my read is). Wicked has been someone I've put off actually trying to read and I guess it's the same again today (sorry!), but from what I remember I think he could be scum? I'll work this out too.

[DeasVail]

CES, Konowa, DV, side order of Shadoweh maybe.

Uh, what?

I see DV's vote and initial response was that he isn't really looking for an answer. If he was truly interested in what I had to say I think he would've seen that I said I would continue that conversation after he rephrased his loaded question. I really don't know what to think of DV.

Yet this was ages ago and you still don't have anything to say. Hmmm.

Reads hopefully being sorted out now.

[DeasVail]

Now with colours!

Strong Townreads

Empire
Tammy
Tierce

Weak Townreads

Benmage
CES
Llamarble (maybe he's stronger though. I can't decide :/)
OGML- I think 832 is scummy though.
Shadoweh

Um...

Nacho- So I want him to be town, I really do, but there's not much that I can read either way. Only thing that maybe indicates something is the big wall of reads (which he's done as scum before in Always On, so I don't think it should be a towntell), whereas I don't think I've seen him do this as town actually, and I think from what I've seen he spreads things out rather than doing it all at once? I'm really not sure on this read.

Scum

Konowa- I'm pretty sure there's been talk of people finding him 'not town', so why not a wagon?
Vi- Actually finding someone scummy overrules town ~feelings~! Saying I'm scum is weird too
Wicked- The main thing that sticks out to me is 739. If you think someone is scum and that they're about to be lynched, then would you really be bothered as town to defend against their accusations? I think scum are much more likely to feel this need, and I'm thinking that town wouldn't seriously respond in such a way, and I guess the 'emotional' response doesn't seem genuine either considering the situation.

~~

Woo done! If you want reasoning for a read, then feel free to ask, but some of them are probably not very good.

Oh, and

Vote: Konowa

if that didn't go through properly.

[DeasVail]

Quick reads explanation:

I'm pretty sure I've said most of the stuff I have to say on my scumreads. I may type it all up together later though.

Llamarble: I remember liking something about his reaction to the wagon and the stuff about trying to play in a new way felt genuine to me. Other than that, his most recent posts seem a lot more like him trying to work out the game than trying to look town. I don't know if I can explain it properly, but it does feel like more than gut to me.

CES: I think the way he attacks Vi is really town. Not much apart from that, but just generally feels town I guess? I think he may be less involved as scum too actually (from what I remember of Mafia and the Kitties anyway).

OGML- Mainly N's play not matching what I'd expect, and I thought his attack on Empire was very town-like.

Shadoweh- Not much apart from her just saying stuff that I think she'd say as town (I mean just general entertaining Shadoweh-type things). I've never played with her as scum though, so I'm not really sure if I'm able to distinguish that well.

Benmage- I'm worried this may be naive, but I actually think his recent lack of involvement could indicate not-scum. I guess I'm kind of sheeping on him mainly though, as I've heard he has a good scum game. He's another 'generally feels town' person as well.

[DeasVail]

I am busy over the next day or so, but will be more active after that.

[DeasVail]

Ok, the problem I'm having is the only vote I'd really feel good about right now is Konowa.

I think I'm going back to a Vi townread: I am worried about this being a really cleverly done content surge response to the suspicion, but there are a lot of things that don't feel like scum trying to make content. First, the inconsistencies of her reads (ones that come to mind are her being very conflicted on me, but later crossing off my name, and agreeing that Wicked is town, but then leaving him in the scum pool), while I think scum are more likely to be more clear about where they want their reads to go. Another thing is the VCA and general eagerness behind it. It's just not something that I see scum do, and the attitude to it seems like it would have to be deliberately faked as scum. I guess it could be actually, but I don't know, I'll go with town for now. I think there were other little things, but I can't think of them right now. I guess just pretend?

BUT, I also think CES is town. I think having the 'town-ness' of a wagon influencing reads is not good as well.

Aaaand, I'm thinking Wicked might be a weak townread now too. I agree with Vi about the part about how he would play as scum. I can't think of the words to explain it, but I feel like it's the kind of thing I would totally say as town, but I wouldn't want to be so desperate to have my inactivity excused as scum I guess? Maybe it's the please part that I think would feel too much like asking not to be suspected for scum.

And THEN that leaves me with no one (except Konowa) to call scum. Nacho and Shadoweh are probably getting closer, but I'm kind of resorting to what I'd do as scum with them and trying to actively look for anything I can attack, and I can't think of anything then either.

I really want to try and be less passive and more helpful I guess in my games, so even though I'm really worried about being wrong I'm going to urge people to vote for Konowa. Look at him calling Tierce town, his later explanation, his whinge about me not asking him about it, and then him having nothing to say about it anyway. I don't think this process comes from town and I think it's fabricated by scum. I feel like he's just being ignored, and would love it if people would vote for him with me.

[DeasVail]

Oh, I feel so weird! D:

[DeasVail]

Oh yeah, the comments on the town-ness of her play was another thing I liked about Vi recently.

And, my non-townreads need to post more.

[DeasVail]

Why didn't you cross off Wicked in 910?

[DeasVail]

There shouldn't have been a need to justify it though?

[DeasVail]

...

What I mean is it doesn't look like it would have been too hard to slip Wicked being town in there somewhere.

[DeasVail]

I think it's the same as the one in Zach's game (except for the 2-shot part).

[DeasVail]

Empire, I felt (most likely irrationally) self-conscious about asking people to abandon their wagons and join me.

And with Konowa, it's that he waited so long to say it. When you do something like that you think you're all smart and want to get it out as soon as you can. That's not what happened.

I don't know what I think of the perspective slip thing. I feel like there's an explanation behind it (that he was talking about what he would have done in Tierce's position as town), but with Konowa not here there's not much to do about that. I'll go with maybe and say that instead of going with something controversial, lynch him (or UT actually) for other reasons that are better!

[DeasVail]

Ugh, deadline's sooner than I expected.

Basically, I'd prefer a Shadow lynch over a Benmage one, but admittedly I haven't read the last page or so. No time now, but I will be able to move my vote before deadline if necessary.

[DeasVail]

Oh yay, deadline's extended. I will stay on UT in the hope of a wagon and I haven't read the latest posts properly, but I saw a pretty town post of Shadoweh's, which doesn't really sound like scum trying to look town either, so maybe I'd choose Benmage? I would still love UT though.

I'm sorry that I haven't been posting much.

[DeasVail]

And yeah, I probably won't vote for CES.

[DeasVail]

Why not?

He's probably town.

[DeasVail]

dv could be like that dude in 90s sitcoms whos like the featured ghuest and shit since i think he's town but im getting a bit paranoid

I'll work my way to a starring role one day!

Anyway, I was hoping to get to this tonight, but I'm in an 'able to read but not

read

' mode right now, so I'll have to apologise once again and ask if I can sort out my reads on Tuesday or Wednesday.

I think I'll try going over everyone, but for now I'm happy with Empire/Tierce/Tammy/Zach/Llama/Shadoweh (she might need a reread though) as town. I mean, OGML could even be there based on N's play possibly, but I haven't really made much attempt to read him lately so he won't for now. Llama and Shadoweh are still a tier below the others, but from what I've read, they have seemed very town to me. (Shadoweh mostly recently)

CES, Benmage, Nacho I obviously need to look at.

[DeasVail]

Benmage:

-I found his attack on Tierce fairly town/genuine.
-Apart from that there's nothing much. The hammer doesn't mean much to me considering it's Benmage. I'll probably read over what others have said.

CES:

-539 is a townish post.
-I liked his attack on Vi, but I guess it's not that unlikely to come from him as scum either.

Also, Empire and Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

More later, hopefully tomorrow.

[DeasVail]

Deasvail - You've been partners before with Nacho. What do you think of his being termed a turbobusser? Is that your experience with him?

He did bus Rach in La-La-Land, but I don't know if he's a 'turbo' busser.

[DeasVail]

DV is pretty funny; he thinks everybody looks town except Nacho on whom he has mentioned no read.

Nacho might actually look town too. I just haven't looked at him properly yet.

But yeah...

[DeasVail]

Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

Why?

His play just seems really town. I don't know if I can explain exactly what I mean, but his posts seem a lot more like making sense of the game (a lot of PoE, grouping players into categories-type posts) than actually looking town with analysis. His suspicion seems really genuine (e.g. the post on Konowa- 899 and also he's had similar thoughts to me, which although isn't necessarily a valid towntell, is probably contributing to my ~good feelings~ ). Other things are his response to his wagon and desire to change his game, and just things he says like commenting on my reaction test silliness finding scum after all.

I still feel like I haven't really said it properly. Maybe tomorrow.

[DeasVail]

Sorry! I'll finish off my reads over the weekend.

[DeasVail]

OhGodMyLife:

421 and 641 are maybe a bit 'show-off-ish'. As in instead of just asking what it means, N needs to make some kind of show out of it.

Overall though, I still think N's play is not how he'd approach the game as scum (I think there would be more effort put into looking town) and his attack on Empire is another thing that I think is townish.

Now onto OGML:

I thought 832 was scummy because it's a bit silly to expect people to be interested in a Benmage wagon when he hasn't even read the thread properly or provided any reason for Benmage being scum. It seems more likely that it's scum trying to think of something to say so that their prod-dodge isn't just a nothing post.

I think his attack on Benmage is pretty town though, so he can be a townread, but I'm not too sure.

Nacho

1056 seems like an attempt to look town maybe?

He seems a little more town with his meta stuff on Benmage. Still probably less so than CES/Benmage though.

I'll probably continue this afternoon (mainly just want to read through Shadow again although a quick skim right now and she still looks town), but I think I'll be going with Nacho and I still haven't decided who I'd prefer out of Benmage/CES (hopefully I won't need to?).

[DeasVail]

I kind of agree with CES.

[DeasVail]

Um yeah, what you're supposed to do is remove all of that, not the other way around.

[DeasVail]

Vote: Nachomamma8

[DeasVail]

No Shadoweh. You're supposed to townread me when no one else can!

[DeasVail]

I always townread you when you're scum too, or just in general because you're cute.

I'm town though, so this is just really unnecessary.

And Tierce, I'm a really easy person to stick in a scumlist, so if anything I think Ben's more town for it.

[DeasVail]

I'm sorry I don't know what you mean by the progression thing, but I did talk with him outside the game and I remember him seeming really natural and pro-town at the time. The thing is that he's less town here, but I don't think he's done anything here that he hasn't done as scum there/anywhere else, so I'd disagree with a townread on him for that, and there's just not much that I find likely to be coming from town-him as opposed to scum-him.

PEdit: Shadoweh, Empire

was

much like this in Castle Zar (and there are just a lot of things that make me really think he's town here).

And no offense to Shadoweh, but I thought she was fairly different (and not too difficult to catch out) as scum as well. (I've only seen a couple of games though).

[DeasVail]

Sorry for needing to be prodded. I still prefer Nacho, with CES > Benmage now probably.

[DeasVail]

Nacho, I disagree with Llamarble as well, but how does that make him scum?

Also, I think CES is at L-1 (unless there is vote-related role stuff going on, the VC above should read as him having 4 votes)

[DeasVail]

Eh, I obviously still prefer a Nacho lynch.

[DeasVail]

Actually, to those on the CES wagon, why him over Nacho?

[DeasVail]

Would anyone have a problem with me hammering?

[DeasVail]

Anyone apart from CES?

[DeasVail]

Well that works too.

[DeasVail]

I don't really think that CTD's posts are much of an indicator of Nacho-town though. Is there anything else about him that you think is really town? As I've said, he just seems not-very-town to me, and there have been previous games where he's been town and I've townread him.

I'm assuming that the post above means you don't want to lynch Nacho btw, so if it doesn't, my apologies.

[DeasVail]

Why me in the first place?

Pretty much covered in my last post. And no one is really that scummy.

I mean, I really want us to be town together and not lynch each other and stuff, but I kind of think you're scum here. If I'm wrong, can you please show me that I'm just being silly somehow?

And I really don't think Llamarble is scum either.

[DeasVail]

So what should I think then?

[DeasVail]

Um... Nacho you never scumread me...

So if you don't think I'm doing anything townish (which doesn't make much sense considering your earlier townread on me), am I not allowed to find someone else not-townish? I don't get that at all.

Regarding CES, because he's mostly just a 'feels town' read (and I'm sorry, but that's all I had at that time), he's now in the not-very-town category.

Most of your points just don't seem good at all to me though, and I'm not going to be really annoying and keep insisting that people answer a question if everybody ignores it. Maybe I should be, I don't know, but I just can't really do that.

This has just come out of nowhere and it really feels like he's just gone 'Hmmm, I think I'll attack DV. He always has juicy reactions' and then looked through my ISO and just come up with whatever. He's also really misrepresenting my meta, since that post is obviously more of a 'I'm so town. Look at me!" post than anything else and I think he knows that.

Llamarble, I don't really understand what you find to be good about the case? I'm trying to be objective about it, and I just see it as bad-sounding stuff that isn't actually scummy at all.

[DeasVail]

I don't think it's something that is very unlikely for scum to do.

[DeasVail]

Ok!

So I'm thinking CES too, maaaybe OGML actually based on memory, but I may be forgetting something I found town.

I was going to look at Nacho interactions tonight, but I've kind of run out of time. I am actually a lot less busy from here on though.

[DeasVail]

Nacho + Benmage:

Maybe very slight point in the direction of Benmage-town for 1060. It's pretty hard chainsaw-ish defending for a scumbuddy.

But THEN:

this is combined with a vote for Benmage, which is in reply to Vi asking if he wants to vote Benmage. I feel like this should mean something one way or another, but it seems like it could easily come with either Ben-town or scum to me.

Same for Benmage's Nacho vote.

Eh, I'm just going to stick with my weakish townread.

~~

More later.

[DeasVail]

More limp fur yay!

CES + Nacho:

In 705 the part on CES has noticeably the least content of everyone. I actually don't think scum would very likely do this to their buddy, but I'm not sure it's enough to make him more town than anyone else.

1344 seems really awkward if they're buddies.

Nacho answering questions for CES is also really weird... Again, I think it might point away from them being scum together.

1497 is interesting because it's not very long before deadline, CES includes Nacho in his scumteam, Nacho is the most viable looking counterwagon at that stage, CES is voting for someone else, and I also think he's generally willing to compromise on lynches, so

On the other hand, why not just vote for Nacho if they're scum together? I mean, I don't think he could've had much hope in OGML being lynched over him/Nacho at that stage? So Eh, maybe slightly more likely from scumbuddies.

I'll have to think about all this again later and obviously go through everyone else, but I'm not sure if I'll want to lynch CES now.

~~

I might get through another one tonight.

[DeasVail]

DV, buddy, do foxes need glasses? Why would scum give more content on their buddies? What do you think of the content itself? Why is it weird to ask why your scumbuddy can't be town when you're not commiting either way with the question? That post 1497 you linked to is pointing towards CES not saying anything about Nacho at all (if you're trying to prove me wrong on OGML it hurts me inside though).

They wouldn't give more, but I don't think they'd be likely to give a lot less either. As scum, I think you're very aware of how you're treating your buddies and giving less content on a buddy is the kind of thing that scum would think would look bad, but really it's not hard to just do the same amount of content on your buddy as everyone else (which is what scum want to do to make their interactions with everyone look the same) and I really don't think this is an attempt to make CES

not

look like his buddy because people aren't weird like me.

The content itself doesn't really indicate anything as far as I can tell.

The question is just something I imagine scum would feel very awkward saying.

CES included Nacho in his scumteam in 1493, sorry. I don't think I'm saying anything about OGML, but I still have to look at him.

[DeasVail]

NachoLlama8:

Starting at 982 they have a back-and-forth which lasts longer and is a bit more extensive than I'd expect from scumbuddies. Still possibly a distancing attempt, but 1042 in particular seems like more effort than one would go to to defend themselves in response to a scumbuddy after the other posts related to it as well.

He mentions how he wouldn't mind a Nacho lynch over a CES lynch a lot (this being the previous day), which could be scum feeling self-conscious about voting CES over Nacho, but you also have 1489 where I think he'd be more keen to justify being on CES's wagon over Nacho's as scum? Also, just skimming through his ISO as I do this gives me town feelings all over again.

Yeah, I still don't know about his play around the CES/Nacho wagons and he says it AGAIN in 1511, but I do think he's town.

Oh yes, please explain what you liked about Nacho's case on me. I don't think you did before.

Overall, his posting just seems really town. Only weird thing is maybe trying too hard to sound open to a Nacho lynch without actually lynching Nacho. Maybe that's a better explanation of what I was trying to say before, but even with that they don't work that well as scum together, so I don't think I'll be going here.

~~

Going for the double!!! Let's hope it actually happens this time.

Nacho + OGML

First, N stuff.

122 could maybe not be possible from scum because of being too worried about sounding too certain (almost like a scumslip in a way). It's N though, so I'm not sure.

The really extended Nacho = scum thing is nicely explained by them being buddies though...

Defending of N could be with N-town or scum.

N not being in Nacho's wall of reads could be a slight point away from buddies.

Aaand, there's nothing much at all from the OGML side of things.

Ehhh, I'll sort it out later.

~~

Hmm ok, a third's not happening right now.

[DeasVail]

I don't mind that much if someone hammers, but if I could sort out my reads first that would be pretty awesome.

[DeasVail]

^Easier to see whose around tomorrow, and the flip.. etc etc

But maybe I'll become really confident in someone being scum (who is actually scum) and convince everyone to vote for them!

Yeah.. it's probably not going to happen, but I only have Shadoweh and a quick look over Tierce to go, so it shouldn't take too long.

[DeasVail]

Nacho + Shadoweh:

Very strong townread of Nacho in 1305 maybe means less likely buddies considering it's before there's an actual wagon so she doesn't really

need

to have a strong stance as a buddy at that point.

This is just Shadow (and not really related to Nacho but maybe a little I guess), but in 1647 she mentions that she was avoiding the thread after Nacho's flip (which is a feeling I can really relate to) and this also comes after she was attacked for the 'woe is me' stance, and I think it would be really awkward for a scumbuddy to do that after being attacked for it.

Also, I don't really get the current Shadoweh hate, but I probably need to read what people were saying again.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I don't know how the pink happened.

D:

Maybe it's a sign!

[DeasVail]

I'M SORRY

I don't like pink either.

[DeasVail]

Ok, so I'm not voting for Shadoweh. She's cool.

It's really between OGML and CES for me. Everyone else is more town.

I agree with Tammy's point about CES attacking Vi and not Nacho and his response in 934 is pretty underwhelming. I also think him suddenly being lost is weird considering he seemed fine yesterday and Nacho was a scumread, but after thinking about it things like Nacho answering for him I don't think scum would do for a buddy. It's like screaming 'Hey! I'm protecting this person!' when it's not actually doing any protecting at all.

OGML on the other hand is just more ehhhh with a hint of town. I feel like I've said this before, but his interactions with Nacho point towards town (well everyone's do according to me so it doesn't mean much), while being more possible than CES', but on his own he (well N) is more town than CES.

Ugh, I so need to work out how to do scum interactions properly, but I'll just go CES unless something happens. If people that actually care about when a hammer happens want a hammer then say so.

Also, unrelated, but now that I'm sort of TET-level town, can we be DETT? (Or something similar, I'm pretty flexible) That would be super cool, and I know we could do with more vowels, but the only other option is OGML and yeah....no.

[DeasVail]

I did reread you and decided you were very likely town.

Hmm ok. I thought it was weird considering he's usually so confident-sounding, whereas I'm completely not.

I didn't mean that I particularly wanted to hammer now. I realise the 'people that actually care' part could be taken that way, but that was more a comment about the people who didn't care about when a hammer happened. I meant that if people are ready for the day to end, they should say so.

[DeasVail]

The main reason why I wanted to was that I know you've looked pretty town early game as scum before.

-I think being scum with Empire and Tammy as town would be demotivating for you (I could be wrong about this though) considering you don't like being scum all that much anyway. You being scum with Empire or Tammy would be possible, but I think you're town for other reasons and I think they're town, so that's not something I want to consider yet.
-Your questioning about the night kill is aggressive in the way that I'd expect from you as town. Also it's a very weird time to talk about the night kill for scum.
-Your comment on the Nacho flip in 1603 seems very natural, and awkward for scum.
-Your vote for Nacho was one of the turning points toward getting him lynched. You could be scum with CES, but that wouldn't explain how involved and aggressive you are at this stage of the game (unless you've changed your scumgame completely).

I think this is about where I stopped and decided you were probably town.

[DeasVail]

CES, why doesn't OGML work with anyone?

[DeasVail]

I think I'll probably go for OGML, but I'll have more to say later maybe.

[DeasVail]

Tammy, what are your thoughts on Benmage's play here in comparison with The Wire? I really want to go over him again with that in mind (hopefully today some time, but I don't know) because I was weak-townreading him in both games.

I'll probably try going through ISOs again and CES' too, but I think it

should

be between Shadoweh/Benmage.

[DeasVail]

I don't think it's 'don't lynch Benmage ever' worthy to be honest. I would feel pretty awkward doing the thing he did in The Wire in both games.

PEdit: ?

[DeasVail]

Benmage, do you think Shadow is scum or not?

[DeasVail]

Yeah, I don't have time for this tonight. Stuff will happen in a couple of days.

[DeasVail]

Tammy, I'm town.

[DeasVail]

I could imagine Nacho being protective of me as a scumbuddy, but I really doubt CES would.

And Benmage, well that would leave Shadoweh I guess? I'm not sold on you being town though.

Oh, and I'm VT.

[DeasVail]

Eh, I still have to check all that out.

[DeasVail]

Where have you been?

Uni/sleeping/doing work for Uni

I don't have much to do now though, so I'll hopefully get some reading done tonight!

[DeasVail]

Ok, so I haven't actually read Tammy's ISO in ages, so let's start there. (By the way I'm going backwards in case there's any confusion. It's the new cool thing to do)

-Her posts today seem pretty natural. They could be faked, but it would be pretty well done by scum and that and other things involve more effort than I'd expect from Tammy-scum at this stage. (and this probably applies previously too when she was part of TET). 1849 is an example.

[aside]Regarding Shadoweh, I think that if she is scum, she needs to do

something

here to avoid losing. Continuing to attack Benmage probably wouldn't have helped her I don't think? Going for defending Benmage is risky, but is the kind of thing I'd expect from scum in a desperate situation (and the kind of thing I would like to try and do as scum too).[/aside]

Ok, I know this is from earlier in the game, but I think mentioning the possibility of CES selective scumhunting by not attacking Nacho

before

either of them flip scum is a really bold move for scum because obviously she'd see it as something that actually incriminates her partners (so she probably wouldn't say it) and also if I considered it as scum I'd think it was something I only thought of because I knew the two of them were scum.

1607 is pretty excessive for scum (similar to something I said about Tierce I think) and the key thing with Tammy is that in her position (especially back then) she didn't need to make the extra effort to look town.

The thing with Empire is another thing that is really really probably from town (why risk adding drama to the relationship with Empire as scum unless she's desperate to look town which she isn't?).

I'll probably do the rest if Benmage and Shadoweh are suddenly super super town or something (oh I really really hope not!), but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing Tammy-scum here.

To be continued! (tomorrow)

[DeasVail]

Ben, I haven't read your post properly yet (got to go very soon!) but what I said supports Shadoweh-scum.

[DeasVail]

Thanks Llama. I know it's something I need to work on, mainly the confidence side of things.

I can't think of anything else really strong for me-town, but I thought some of the things Empire said were pretty good. I could ISO myself and find stuff, but would that just make things worse? I don't know.

[DeasVail]

If you already feel ok about your reads, why does it take a while to just post them?

I think it was that I had a lot of stuff due the next day, which I thought would take up a lot of the night. Also, I felt ok about my reads as in I had a fair few townreads, maybe the Penguin scumread at that point, but there were still people that I didn't have a solid read on (those not included in 698) who I think I wanted to ISO before doing a reads post. A lot of the time I at least quickly go through everyone's ISO before a reads post, but I forget whether I actually planned to do that there or not.

[DeasVail]

I think it was because I didn't have anything to say that I hadn't already. I'd already said I was probably going to vote for him.

[DeasVail]

Oh people are voting for me, lovely.

I'll catch up on stuff this afternoon. Sorry about not finishing my reads yet.

[DeasVail]

Shadoweh, are you saying that the 'speaking from experience' was from this game or other games?

But yeah, I'm not going to argue that I wouldn't have made similar kills as scum, because I probably would have. (I really do feel like this is The Wire all over again in so many ways )

But I am town and I ask that instead of focusing on the fact that people with townreads on DV died, actually look at the townreads. Empire especially can actually read me really well and is probably screaming at everyone in the dead QT right now. Well maybe not, but still... he read me as town and no offence, but just take my word for it that he's the best at reading me and you should follow him. Ok, that sounds all manipulative, but it is true, and a quick look at some games could probably confirm that.

I just think it would be really awesome if I could be town again and we could lynch Benmage/Shadoweh and very very likely win.

I mean, just the recent delay in sorting out my Benmage/Shadoweh reads is something that probably wouldn't happen if I was scum. It's much easier for me to just make up reasoning as scum than actually read people and obviously being active is better in this scenario.

I'll try and read through Benmage or Shadoweh tonight.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I thought that the dates didn't fit, but they actually kind of possibly do. It's actually a thing where I don't like killing people that suspect me though. I think it's discussed in NY160B.

I'm not sure what to say except that I'm not scum, so either I don't sound like a chicken or I'm a chicken as both scum and town! I don't really know what you mean by the chicken thing in reference to the post either.

NY 160B I'm scum and he consistently has a non-townread on me and ends up lynching me.
The Wire he read me correctly as town.
I think he ended up reading me correctly in Mini 1407 too.
Oh and Sherlock Mafia
and in Mafiastuck I'm pretty sure he was saying in the dead QT that I was obvtown and I was at least town.

Basically Empire is amazing and you should think so too.

(Sorry Empire)

[DeasVail]

Oh and I've done a little bit of reading of Shadoweh and Benmage (not that much though) and I'm still not really anywhere special. If I had to say a name right now, it'd maybe be Shadoweh, but I have no idea if that'll end up being what I think.

[DeasVail]

I'm not sure that it would have been from your perspective. Until later in the day everyone was talking about the Shadoweh or Benmage show. If I Were You as Scum(tm) I probably would have lurked it out. Do you normally easily come up with good reasoning as scum?

I don't know if my reasoning is always good (at least it's probably not worse than my usual town reasoning) but I do struggle sometimes and I think in NY160B I was caught out for trying too hard to have reasoning at one point. I think I'm generally a lot more 'pro-town' as scum though and lurking is just ew unless I have RL/personal issues that drain my interest in everything, which has happened. I'd take a mafia PM over a town one any day so that probably explains it.

PEdit: I know.

[DeasVail]

DV, why apologize to Empire?

I think some people can be uncomfortable with a lot of attention placed on them, and I was possibly embarrassing him.

[DeasVail]

It really sounds like you're apologizing to him for talking so much about how wrong he was...

Um, why would I say it in the thread?

Also, I ask that you don't hammer, Benmage.

[DeasVail]

You're not voting DV.

And you havent done anything this game.

You don't deserve to make requests. Sorry.

Well if me voting would somehow stop you from hammering then let me know, but if I'm not going to be lynched, I'd love to end this today if possible.

And I know I haven't been the best, but I don't think that's true.

[DeasVail]

Yes, I want to finish reading through the two of you, but it takes time and I have other things on. I will work on getting whatever I can done when I can, but I'm sorry about taking so long with it.

[DeasVail]

Obviously I'm not hammering you though?

[DeasVail]

I haven't quite done the big super reread I was planning, but I have read through the recent parts of the game again, skimmed through some of the older Benmage/Shadoweh posts and I think I'm happy enough with what I thought of their posts before to make at least a preliminary decision of what I think. (Trying to look at Benmage in The Wire compared to here is just not working for me.)

Anyway, I think I'm going with Benmage.

Why?

-For most of the game, I've found Shadoweh more town than Benmage. The biggest things are probably her reaction to the wagon on Day whatever it was and 1647 continuing the 'woe is me' thing after being attacked for it. Those are the most concrete things I can find/think of/remember, but a lot of her posts feel really town for me in a way that I don't think would be replicated by Shadoweh-scum. Again, I'm not sure and there are town-looking things about Benmage too, but Shadoweh is more town to me from most of the game.

-A lot of the things Benmage has done today seem like a big show. The whole 'RAWR Tammy' thing I thought could be too weird for scum, but first, I don't get how he could have thought Tammy was scum, and it's suddenly no longer a thing now when I don't think Tammy has been particularly more town recently. Similar are his statements about how he definitely definitely definitely wouldn't do such-and-such as scum and everyone should learn to play, when a lot of those things could fairly easily be done by scum when you think about it.
I feel a lot less confident about this than it might sound, but it's something that's come to my mind as a possibility and with Shadoweh also looking more town in my opinion, I think I'm going here.

-Just a quick note on The Wire. I just don't think it's a good reason to consider him town. The games started at different times and I don't think it's that absurd to have different activity in one scumgame compared to another. I know that RL can easily interfere even if you love playing scum, but I can't say much more about it. The thing that Shadoweh mentioned, as I said I really doubt he'd do the same exaggerated reactions in two scumgames and I don't think it's a good idea to expect him to.

I don't know if it's just because I'm way too tired, but I'm actually feeling weirdly good right now thinking of Benmage-scum. I don't think I'm ready to vote yet, but here's what I've been thinking.

[DeasVail]

Vote: Benmage

[DeasVail]

I would agree, but it's between him and Shadoweh here (well it better be) and with Shadoweh doing stuff that feels real to me too, as well as knowing that Benmage can do the whole 'I'm so town' tone as scum, I'm pretty much guessing that it's Benmage. Maybe Shadoweh could pull it off as scum too, but I think Benmage is the more likely to be able to based off The Wire anyway.

[DeasVail]

I thought about it before and could see myself making similar kills to what's been done here. Empire in particular I'd maybe feel too self-conscious leaving as the last TET alive. Between you and Tierce though, I don't know. If I had to pick someone to leave alive right now I'd maybe say you based on the situation before today, but I'm not sure what I would have been thinking as scum. The Wire situation was much more clear cut.

PEdit: Regarding the nacho wall, I can't read much into the differences. Neither of them seem like something he wouldn't do to a buddy. The Benmage read there is fairly mild and I'm pretty sure he said I was 'town as fuck' and buddied me a bit in La-La Land. Maybe the Shadoweh read is too much buddying for a buddy, but I'm not going to assume that considering everything else there is.

I tend to kill people with townreads on me as scum, so I could see that happening. I'm not sure if I'd go for the person with the strongest townread on me, but as I said above, I'd probably feel self-conscious leaving him as the last alive. I think I said something similar in The Wire and I do try to act like I do as town when scum, so I could see myself doing that as scum. I'm town here though.

Actually thinking about it, it would be a pretty dick move to do if I was scum. Maybe I'd still do it though? I don't know Tammy.

[DeasVail]

It'd be three goons (but you probably meant that). It doesn't look that bad to me like that considering vig and vanilla cop are X-shot, especially if scum have daytalk (which seems to be the usual for Faraday games?), but I'm not great at balance.

[DeasVail]

Shadoweh, if you're town, you need to reconsider Benmage. You and I both know that if I'm lynched today, it's probably not going to be Benmage that's lynched tomorrow.

[DeasVail]

Sorry scumbuddies for not being able to make it.

But well done town, you guys played well.

Thanks for modding Faraday. It was a fun game.

[DeasVail]

Oh yes I remember that post.

So scary...