Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Fink]

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

That's actually a reasonable explaination. Care to explain your reasoning now though?

I promise, I, at least, will not hammer you any second. I'll hammer you when it seems like we're not making any more progress from you being at L-1 and no one has shown any indication of switching to Phil yet.

[DCLXVI]

Got a nice juicy contradiction by Acryon here:

To start off, this is the question I asked him, and his initial response:

@Acryon, can you explain your read on me please, and why/how it changed?

In the chance that I am getting lynched, my current reads are:
Blair - Lean-town
Phil - Lean-scum
Shadowz - Lean-town
Thor - Scum
droog - Town
Fink - Town
Dys - Lean-scum

DCLXVI - Town

The scummiest person on my wagon besides Thor is probably DCLXVI

. If Phil were to be lynched and flip scum, then our last scum is Thor. If he flips town, I think it's Thor and probably Dys or DCLXVI.

Can you explain this change from town -> scum in your read on me

Is this following quote the only reason, or was there more there that I was missing?

4. 465 and 467 by Droog is excellent posting, he just takes apart acroyn's argument.

Just reading through again. This is now the second person that has said this, except that I had an answer for his comments, and not a person has said how I am wrong at all in my responses (please, explain if you think I am or if my responses weren't correct). And no one ever even addressed the end of that exchange between me and droog. This casts extra suspicion on DCLXVI IMO, so if and when I am lynched, pay attention to that.

To be fair, I said you were the scummiest person besides Thor on my wagon. You are still the 4th scummiest person I think, and not even very scummy. But I was asked who is most scummy on my wagon other than Thor, and neither Dys or Phil were on my wagon, so of droog, you, and Shadowz, I do think you are the scum

miest

, but that doesn't mean I feel strongly at all about you being scum.

Now, acryon is saying that his thoughts on my predecessor bins has something to do with the change in how he reads me.

My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time.

Now.... if bins posting made a change in how he viewed my slot... why did Acryon NOT mention it when I asked him why his read on my slot changed.

[DCLXVI]

TLDR version:

I asked Acryon why he changed me from town to scum in his reads. Acryon's response did NOT include anything about bins.

Later, when Fink asks Acryon the same question, the response from Acryon about the read change is that he took into account bins posting as well.

Why does Acryon have two different responses to what is basically the same question?

Let's lynch the liar and get if over with.

[droog]

666 why are you piling on the acryon case
he's getting lynched that's not changing

[Fink]

Yes, his general reluctance to explain absolutely anything about his reads is the reason for my second point, that I think it looks like his reads are made up rather than based on anything real.

[acryon]

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

That's actually a reasonable explaination. Care to explain your reasoning now though?

I promise, I, at least, will not hammer you any second. I'll hammer you when it seems like we're not making any more progress from you being at L-1 and no one has shown any indication of switching to Phil yet.

Sure thing.

Bins/DCLXVI
-I didn't like Bins' read on Phil. She did admit that the null-town read on him was weak, but it still seemed like a read that should have lead to some pressure on Phil, but instead she sort of let him off the hook.
-Bins posted walls about Phil, Thor, and Blair, and then said nothing about Dys who was her "biggest scum-read reading through day one".
-Basically, after reading over it again, I realized how little content her primary big post actually had, and it just didn't seem like there was any motivation from her to actually follow-up on what scum-reads she had. Overall it was a bit fluffy.
-Already commented that I didn't like DCLXVI's comment about droog "taking apart my argument," as someone else already said this earlier, but neither one of them mentioned how. Just seemed like a bit of parroting.
-Didn't like how DCLXVI did all that reading and only ended up with my as a scum-read. Especially given that I am town, seems like a waste of effort.

I actually have completely run out of time for today, so I have to end it there, but if I am alive tomorrow, I will expand on my read of Shadowz.

[DCLXVI]

666 why are you piling on the acryon case
he's getting lynched that's not changing

I was going to stop, but I felt my last two posts were necessary due to Fink's post at the top of the page.

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

That's actually a reasonable explaination. Care to explain your reasoning now though?

I promise, I, at least, will not hammer you any second.

I'll hammer you when it seems like we're not making any more progress from you being at L-1 and no one has shown any indication of switching to Phil yet.

I'm not interested in letting Acryon off the hook, and I'm seeing the potential for that. I'm not very high on a Phil lynch either right now.

[Dyslexicon]

Wow. Ok.

- Acryon says a lot of stuff that seems rushed. I can only mostly gut read this now, cause that was a lot of back and forth and wtf is this, but to me acryon seems more townish than scummish through his defense.
- His push on Thor reads townish to me (agree with Blair) unless he and Thor are scum together. I don't at all agree with him insisting on that you HAVE to vote your #1 scum read, and if anyone has the time this would be something to meta him on. Or if acryon himself has a done game where he is town and is insisting that? That would make the push pretty townish to me.
- The fact that he just pulled together a top of the head read post also seems townish to me, if like he says he thought he was going to be hammered at any moment.
- But then there's a lot of things that just doesn't make much sense.
- I don't understand the scum motivation for not voting Phil, unless they are scum together. I don't understand it as town either though, especially since Phil is indeed a scum read of his (weaker than Thor, but still).
- Don't get acryons scum read on me, cause that's new and not explained, acryon?

my reasoning is, the more posts you make, the more likely you are to make a scumslip

@ DCLXVI, Droog, Acryon, Shaddowz, Thor

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play? It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected. He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

And he is basically hiding now.

@Acryon - why do you rule out Dys as my partner? Since they are 2nd or 3rd most likely scum, but if Phil flips town then #4 DC jumps into being my partner - why not #2-3 Dys?

I can think of lots of reasons >_>

@Fink - I see your point about Phil there. I will point out that whether or not he thinks the best way to scumhunt someone is to get them to post a lot does not mean that he thinks the best way to play as town is to post a lot - that isn't exactly an either/or situation. So, I'd give it a minor scum twinge, but nothing more. I feel like you think it's a solid hit out of the park - I am very much not with you on that.

You've been way too lenient on Phil, especially given how you've been barking at other players. He's actively avoiding questions, saying he's going to get to them, and saying he's going to continue this and that, and then nothing happens. His posts are more and more brief. It reads scum half given up all the way.

Also, your whole argument that Phil was an easier wagon. Obviously not. Someone comes in and offers acryon as an alternative and now he's way ahead. It's like Phil is coasting on one pretty post at the start that wasn't really that pretty anyway.

If I didn't know that lynching me doesn't help town at all, I would tell you to just lynch me, because I have unfortunately probably done town a lot less good than I intended at this point =\

This isn't convincing me though =/

Maybe a Dys, Fink, Droog, DCL...maybe.

Wow, we might almost agree on something here. O.o
Although, maybe I'd want Blair instead of you.

So Phil, why aren't you voting for them? Or if you are, why haven't you explained your vote on me any of the times I've asked you?

I have explained. Judging by the responses to your other points made in the next post, reading what people say rather than accusing them of not responding might be a good idea.

(Incidentally, may as well throw that on the pile. While I can see town motivations for trying to rile people up, I can see a hell of a lot more scum motivations for it)

If you're not lynched today I want you to get back to the questions you promised.

I responded to part of that in #659, I'll handle the rest shortly, apologies for missing the other question

---

I could see acryon being scum with specific partners (mostly Thor or Phil), obviously not both which is the problem.
I'm gut reading him town. I just am.
If Phil is not lynched I'm fine with lynching acryon, there's enough doubt and things I don't understand and things that are unexplained. Why are we not lynching Phil though? With the danger of being lazy I think both of them need to flip, but my scum read is so much stronger on Phil (if anyone was in any doubt about that).

I didn't like shadow's vote on acryon at all.

[Dyslexicon]

@DCL, what is your thoughts on Phil. I haven't heard you say anything about him except from asking shadow's this:

Unless I'm counting wrong (and I really hope I'm not), Acryon has 3 votes on him, which puts him at L-2.

VOTE: acryon

That makes it L-1. Please don't hammer him until he's come back from his V/LA and has time to respond to the most recent posts.

Why acryon instead of phil? You have both of them listed as suspects and bother were L-2 when you put that vote down?

[droog]

It's past hammer time

[DCLXVI]

@DCL, what is your thoughts on Phil.

I'm not very high on a Phil lynch either right now.

[shaddowez]

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon. DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think. Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

I can't control when other people vote/post. If you haven't noticed, I tend to post at different times than everybody else. I agreed with Thor's point about not having my vote sitting on a wagon that's not going to happen, so I decided to move it to my next highest scum read. Would it have been less scummy had only one other person voted acryon before I moved my vote? If so, why? If not, would it have been less scummy if I waited until he was at L-1 and used my vote to hammer? Also, if so, why?

wait who is shaddowez

shaddowez is probably also topping my scum lists at the moment
most everyone eles is making fair town impressions on me

You had interacted with me a number of times, and only once in Post 271 did you mention any sort of scum read on me, and that was me out of a group based on gut. Considering the other one was dys and you said you wanted to hear more from both of us, I can only assume that feeling was based on something along the lines of lack of content/participation. If that's the case, I'll ask you to review my signature and the second line of my response to Fink.

As for everyone else giving you town impressions, does that apply to acryon as well? If so, why do you still have your vote on him? If not, do you see him and I being scum partners, and if so please explain why.

Unless I'm counting wrong (and I really hope I'm not), Acryon has 3 votes on him, which puts him at L-2.

VOTE: acryon

That makes it L-1. Please don't hammer him until he's come back from his V/LA and has time to respond to the most recent posts.

Why acryon instead of phil? You have both of them listed as suspects and bother were L-2 when you put that vote down?

A couple of reasons - while I never did a "rating" system, when I first did my reads list I did feel acryon was scummier than Phil. My read on Phil is partly PoE, and based more on his lack of scum hunting and following up on things. My read on acryon is actually based on things he is saying/how he is saying them, along with his interactions with other people. Additionally, I'm still suspicious of Dys (where my vote was before I moved it), and I see Dys/acryon being a more likely team than Dys/Phil. Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons, since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner.

[Dyslexicon]

I still like my Dys vote, but really don't see her being scum with Acryon

, who is my next highest scum read. I'm willing to compromise on him or Phil to ensure a lynch. Since I saw some votes on Acryon, I want to reread before moving my vote to make sure I don't derphammer.

A couple of reasons - while I never did a "rating" system, when I first did my reads list I did feel acryon was scummier than Phil. My read on Phil is partly PoE, and based more on his lack of scum hunting and following up on things. My read on acryon is actually based on things he is saying/how he is saying them, along with his interactions with other people. Additionally, I'm still suspicious of Dys (where my vote was before I moved it), and I see Dys/acryon being a more likely team than Dys/Phil. Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons,

since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner

.

Um. I can see that it's super unlikely to see me and Phil as a potential scum team, but you said yourself that you couldn't see me with acryon, but now it looks like you can?
I don't really know why you're reading me as scum in the first place. Anything you're not satisfied with in my answers to you?

---

I know I'm repeating myself again and again, but I really feel strong about Phil.
I'm having more unsure feelings on acryon. And given how strong I feel about Phil and it seems like everyone is just sliding past his wagon, and it's super dodgy to me. I could really use a conformation or disconformation on Phil, but I realize that is my personal read.

Droog, Thor, shadow, DCL, if there's no chance one of you hop onto Phil, I'll hammer acryon.

[Dyslexicon]

@DCL, I was hoping for something more elaborate. Like, why?

[DCLXVI]

no comment

[Dyslexicon]

no comment

Well then. *sips tea*

[shaddowez]

Dys

- I should have said "who I more likely see as her partner". In the line just above where you bolded I said I see you as a more likely team, not outright saying that you are. I have liked what you've been saying lately, but I'll have to do a more complete reread to see if you still look scummy to me or not.

I'd still prefer an acryon lynch over a Phil lynch toDay.

[Dyslexicon]

dys

- I'm still thinking scum on her, though possibly not as strongly as before. Based on ISO's, I could see an acryon/dys scum team though.

I still like my Dys vote, but really don't see her being scum with Acryon, who is my next highest scum read.

Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons, since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner.

Actually, shadow, I'd like you to take me through your thought process on these changes here.
I have my thoughts, but I'd like to hear your's^^

[Fink]

I can't control when other people vote/post. If you haven't noticed, I tend to post at different times than everybody else. I agreed with Thor's point about not having my vote sitting on a wagon that's not going to happen, so I decided to move it to my next highest scum read. Would it have been less scummy had only one other person voted acryon before I moved my vote? If so, why? If not, would it have been less scummy if I waited until he was at L-1 and used my vote to hammer? Also, if so, why?

It wasn't the order so much as the lack of any comment on

why

. The lack of comment along with the timing make it more suspcious than the others, but please note that I'm not building a case on you here, I'm pointing out that OF THE PEOPLE ON THE WAGON, you got on it the scummiest. Yes, if you had moved your vote earlier or later, it would have looked less like you were following a trend, but the thing that would have helped the most is more explaination for your reasoning.

Also, I was kind of hoping to wait for tomorrow to see what he says, but since I guess the Shaddowez thing could be a delaying tactic, I'm fine with the hammer tonight if everyone else is.

Still, I don't really see us talking ourselves out of this by tomorrow. I don't think we need to rush, but if no one else is getting anything useful, I have no problem hammering Acryon. Or letting Dys do it.

[Dyslexicon]

Dys

- I should have said "who I more likely see as her partner". In the line just above where you bolded I said I see you as a more likely team, not outright saying that you are. I have liked what you've been saying lately, but I'll have to do a more complete reread to see if you still look scummy to me or not.

I'd still prefer an acryon lynch over a Phil lynch toDay.

That ok, but you're kind of using it as a relevant point. When if you "really don't see us being scum together" it's not really a relevant point, imo.

[DCLXVI]

Hammer away. There is a lot I've been holding off on saying until after this lynch.

[Fink]

Hammer away. There is a lot I've been holding off on saying until after this lynch.

Promise to explain

why

you thought it was necessary to hold off until after the lynch when you do explain, okay? Because I can't see any good reason for it now, but who knows, maybe it will be reasonable in hindsight.

[DCLXVI]

I assure you that my reasons are completely reasonable and I reason that they have been thought through for reasonably significant amount of time.

[Fink]

Well, it would be nice to go to sleep and have the flip to think about, and the more I think about, what he has to say about Shaddowez is probably bullshit anyway, regardless of his flip. And I don't like the staling tactic feel of it.

I'm going to hold you to the reasonableness of those reasonably well reasoned reasons.

VOTE: Acryon

Let's vote Phil tomorrow. I'm glad to feel like this game is stalling out a bit less.

[Thor665]

- I don't understand the scum motivation for not voting Phil, unless they are scum together. I don't understand it as town either though, especially since Phil is indeed a scum read of his (weaker than Thor, but still).

He's obligated to do this due to the hardline stance he took about me (even though it's only a presumption on his part who I suspected more and not anything I said, but, still, he's obligated)

To answer your question - no, I am unlikely to vote Phil, I feel I have made that clear.

@Fink - why do you want to talk about voting Phil prior to seeing what Acryon flips? I know my immediate stance is 'well...what will he flip?' In a generic sense I might be like 'Blair - lynch Blair darnit!' but I'd like to see the flip and then glance at his iso if he flips scum before swearing to that. Why are you hard line on it?