Mini 1709: Radjarok: Game over!

[vijay2vasandani]

holy shit there are some long posts in here. kinda busy now, nursing a hangover from this morning. will get to this maybe after dinner.

oh also, my most important finding from my skim is that gob cant count and doesn't know what four or five means.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey gob, give me a four-or-five-word read on the following players: stoz, texcat, Accountant.

VeeGee, you may do this as well.

I'll do it too.

I wasn't asking you.

stoz: Town read, he is very helpful in his 9 posts and i can tell he is reading the game and keeping up.
I think his posts like #208 really show he is on the town side of things.

texcat: scum read, if we look at posts like #198 it shows her trying to twist my words. She has never crossed paths with anyone besides me or accountant really (outside of RVS)

Accountant: Town, i think my quick statement of accusing her of OMGUS was wrong before. She has been trying to better town in a way that is apparent, however, there is one thing i want to note.

She hardly took a stance on me in her large wall-text post.

i can understand that its day 1 and all but i really find this interesting as i thought the post itself was interesting but her final statements did not leave clarity on her stance.

Re: Texcat, how are your words being twisted?

As for Accountant, you think she is town, but you also argue her lack of stance in her wall post is a problem and then start implying that she is not town after all. This is contradictory.

Do you know what "particularly" means? Because I'm pretty sure you don't, & that's fine, because the topic here is not the quality of the English you are using, not even the quality of your posts, but wether gob is town or scum. So look it up in a dictionary & then adjust your read in the light of that.[/quote
My English is fine; the only problem here is you willfully failing to parse a simple sentence correct. As for my gob read, I asked him a question and he dodged it, so nothing changes there.

I'm a lazy bum, so I'm not gonna check it now, but iirc, Hopkirk was the first one, to make an association between gob and me, not stoz. Secondly, he's lying in that post.

You recall incorrectly. Secondly, where is the lie?

Okay, so I would like everyone who reads this post to post a quick(one sentence) read on me, plus an addendum about whether you think I'm fence-sitting.

I think you have made some really awful posts for which I can find no town motive.
Addendum: Fence-sitting is not the correct phrase to describe your stance on gob.

Addendum to the addendum:

Vote: Accountant

.

[Accountant]

Haschel, can you ISO me so we know what awful posts you're referring to?

Klingoncelt: I don't have much of a read on him. I will do an ISO when I get access to a computer. I will point out that I can't think of any good quality posts by him off the top of my head.

[Klingoncelt]

Okay, so I would like everyone who reads this post to post a quick(one sentence) read on me, plus an addendum about whether you think I'm fence-sitting. Because the way I see it a 20% more likely chance of being mafia than town is pretty big, especially 11 pages in on a guy who's been messing up all my reads with his incomprehensible posts.

Definitely you aren't fence-sitting.

I am concerned that you'll let anger and by-the-book play cloud your instincts.

So far you appear Town.

But this is just Day 1...

[Klingoncelt]

Because mafia love to fence sit. This is Mafia 101 come on dude.
No matter how you look at it, you cant blame me for calling you out.

Mafia don't fence sit much on this site.

[Klingoncelt]

Hey guys, let me catch up please

Constantine, dammit, stop.

You committed to the game. Keep the fuck up.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Haschel, can you ISO me so we know what awful posts you're referring to?

I'm not gonna quote your entire ISO, but here's the relevant parts:

Convince me why I should vote gob over you, VeeGee. Build a case against him, because right now I'm pushing for your lynch, not his.

This comes across as "I am willing to bus you, but I don't want to."

I agree that we need to lynch VeeGee, but we definitely should not hammer early. To be clear, I'm autolynching anybody that quickhammers VeeGee, even if VG turns out to be scum.

At the time this was posted VeeGee only had four votes on him and was in no practical danger of being quickhammered, so why bring it up as a possibility?

Town!Gob
- Posted a clear and unambiguous reads list early in the game. I can't imagine that scum would commit to a position so early, especially with such strong opinions.

Did you read his reads list? It didn't have strong opinions at all.

Town!Gob
[...]
- Has been transparent in his thinking. If he thinks someone is scum, he doesn't hesitate to say it. Same for townreads.
[...]
Scum!Gob
- Dodged quite a few questions. What does he have to hide?

These are mutually exclusive.

CONCLUSION:
Gob is vanilla townie : 0%
Gob is power role : 5% given his known meta for acting somewhat unbalanced as a PR
Gob is a clueless town member: 40%
Gob is scum: 60%

Gob is most likely VI/scum.

If you actually think that gob is definitely not a vanilla townie,

why the hell would you announce that in the thread?

I can see literally no scum motivation for that. Also, if he's not vanilla, and he's only 5% a power role, then where does 40% clueless town come from?

Haschel Cedricson is my top town read by far.

You've been talking me up quite a bit in this game, even in posts that supposedly have nothing to do with me. It's one thing for me to be a townread, but after a while it comes across as buddying.

Okay, so I would like everyone who reads this post to post a quick(one sentence) read on me, plus an addendum about whether you think I'm fence-sitting.

If you are town, why do you care what other people think about you? It's one thing to defend yourself against a case, but a general question like this is more about making sure you're

looking

town instead of actually

being

town.

[Accountant]

Thanks for the analysis. I'll address it once I get to a computer.

[gob]

Because mafia love to fence sit. This is Mafia 101 come on dude.
No matter how you look at it, you cant blame me for calling you out.

Mafia don't fence sit much on this site.

And that is why i gave her a town read, still. I just wanted to mention it.

[havingfitz]

Will try to get a post in tomorrow (RL).

[Accountant]

This comes across as "I am willing to bus you, but I don't want to."

According to post #253, I'm the first to vote VeeGee, and I haven't taken my vote off since even though other lynch candidates(such as Dessew or gob, or even stoz) have been pointed out. Do you think a mafia would bus their buddy that far on Day 1.

I've noticed that people who are under pressure tend to be able to notice a lot of scummy things about other people, perhaps because they're incentivized strongly to convince town to lynch someone else. At worst, I get more content out of a scummy, fairly quiet player. At best, VeeGee provides convincing evidence against gob, who is then exposed as scum and lynched.

At the time this was posted VeeGee only had four votes on him and was in no practical danger of being quickhammered, so why bring it up as a possibility?

It's a standard habit I have every time a player looks like a viable lynch candidate. Most of my forum mafia experience is from a forum where quickhammers were fairly common, especially because a large portion of the players were new to mafia. Gobln, who quickhammered in Newbie 1632, is also in the game, so I needed to put it out early.

Did you read his reads list? It didn't have strong opinions at all.

This was my error; upon reread, I concede that the reads list was indeed not very strong. My point that scum had no reason to post an unasked-for reads list with stances taking on certain people("literally bare-bones stuff, just trying to get by" makes it pretty clear what he thinks of me, for example), because it gives them less flexibility in a fluid situation like Day 1 where reads can change fast(sort of like how I went from townreading gob to VI/scumreading him).

These are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that Gob is transparent in that he throws out whatever he's thinking off the top of his head when unprompted or given a loose question like "what are your reads?", but becomes evasive when someone else asks him specific, direct questions.

If you actually think that gob is definitely not a vanilla townie, why the hell would you announce that in the thread? I can see literally no scum motivation for that. Also, if he's not vanilla, and he's only 5% a power role, then where does 40% clueless town come from?

I was giving my best read on gob at that time. Perhaps you can't see any town motivation for that, but scum wouldn't have any reason to do so either(if I was scum and suspected gob was a powerful role, all I have to do is wait for night and go "pst! let's NK gob!".

"power role" referring to a powerful role, not a role with a night ability. Cop is an example of a power role; something like Deputy isn't.

I agree this part should have been more clear, so I'm clarifying it now.

You've been talking me up quite a bit in this game, even in posts that supposedly have nothing to do with me. It's one thing for me to be a townread, but after a while it comes across as buddying.

My point remains. I think you're a strong player and most likely town. Look at that in whatever way you want to.

If you are town, why do you care what other people think about you? It's one thing to defend yourself against a case, but a general question like this is more about making sure you're

looking

town instead of actually

being

town.

I wanted feedback about whether gob's accusation of me fence-sitting had any substance, because if it was and people told me I was indeed engaged in fencesitting, that would be a sign to correct my behavior. Same with the reads; if 5 people had responded to that post with "I think you're filthy scum", that would be a sign that I was doing something wrong, especially since this is my first game on MafiaScum(I played in a newbie, but had to be replaced after 3 posts).

I fail to see how scum asking this question would make them look town. If they're being scumread, asking this wouldn't make them look more scummy than before.

[Radja]

texcat has been prodded. This is his first prod.

[Dessew]

Do you know what "particularly" means? Because I'm pretty sure you don't, & that's fine, because the topic here is not the quality of the English you are using, not even the quality of your posts, but wether gob is town or scum. So look it up in a dictionary & then adjust your read in the light of that.

My English is fine; the only problem here is you willfully failing to parse a simple sentence correct. As for my gob read, I asked him a question and he dodged it, so nothing changes there.

And by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?

I never said others posts were grade-A either, but i find the need to mention that Vijays in particular stood out to me as half-assed.

The Oxford Dictionary says:
particularly: adverb
1. To a higher degree than is usual or average
1.1. Used to single out a subject to which a statement is especially applicable
1.2. So as to give special emphasis to a point; specifically

I'm a lazy bum, so I'm not gonna check it now, but iirc, Hopkirk was the first one, to make an association between gob and me, not stoz. Secondly, he's lying in that post.

You recall incorrectly. Secondly, where is the lie?

Hopkirk mentioned an associative between me and "someone he scumreads" (gob is heavily implied) in 193, so stoz didn't offer anything new in his 208. For the lies, look at the segment of the same post where I answered stoz. Seriously, I need to open the dictionary for you, now I'm supposed to read posts for you, the next time you'll ask me to chew your food for you. :D

[Dessew]

I'm one of those "Day 3" players, by then I should have a very accurate reads list, regardless of game size.

Don't we all wish we could get a free pass to Day 3 with tons of information from flips and night actions to go on. I find day 1 the hardest but not doing enough got me lynched day 1 in my last game (I was VT).[/quote]
Oh, Christ, this is an ongoing game. Please don't do this. I'll look at your finished newbie game, instead (the one you in which you were endgamed...)

[Dessew]

So, apparently, I've spent less than ten minutes with your iso from that newbie game. I'll do it properly later, I guess, I just really don't feel like it right now. I must add something: don't mention ongoing games, ever. If you really have to (it will never be that case, though), say only factual things, eg. this or that person posted on tuesday or w/e. I suppose stating the reason why you think you got lynched is a little too subjective, it might actually be a border-line case, though, so please read zor's post about the official stance on the issue, & judge it for yourself.

[texcat]

Oops. Sorry about needing the prod. Speaking of prods, what's up with St. Constantine. He's not posted anything but prodges since he replaced in.

The Acct/Gob argument is boring. I don't think Acct is fence-sitting. She did seem to downgrade her opinion of Gob rather quickly, but I expect townies to revise their reads as new information comes in.

[Haschel Cedricson]

And by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?

I never said others posts were grade-A either, but i find the need to mention that Vijays in particular stood out to me as half-assed.

The Oxford Dictionary says:
particularly: adverb
1. To a higher degree than is usual or average
1.1. Used to single out a subject to which a statement is especially applicable
1.2. So as to give special emphasis to a point; specifically

HC: Why were vijay's posts half-assed?
gob: They were half-assed.'

Don't be willfully dense.

I'm a lazy bum, so I'm not gonna check it now, but iirc, Hopkirk was the first one, to make an association between gob and me, not stoz. Secondly, he's lying in that post.

You recall incorrectly. Secondly, where is the lie?

Hopkirk mentioned an associative between me and "someone he scumreads" (gob is heavily implied) in 193, so stoz didn't offer anything new in his 208. For the lies, look at the segment of the same post where I answered stoz. Seriously, I need to open the dictionary for you, now I'm supposed to read posts for you, the next time you'll ask me to chew your food for you. [/quote]
He did indeed offers something new because stoz was the first person to point out that the relationship went both directions. Also, I did read that segment of the post and I don't see you calling out any lies at all (my comments in blue):

stoz has virtually done nothing, which is fine by itself. The suspicious part is his tone. Example:

At first I thought Trivium's question was quite good, because it would force scum to declare if they are going to be active or lurk when they have less information on the game.

Upon thinking about it some more I realised that if Trivium was scum it could be a great tool to use to help forward a lynch on someone town who gets busy in real life.

Overall I'm going to have to treat it as null.

A meticulous piece of analysis of nothing with no real conclusion at the end. The time & energy he seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable. The rest of his iso is better in the sense that he's more active, but he has just moved away from the total nihil, in the direction of one of the already established & discussed to death.

I agree this wasn't my best post, but I haven't been fence sitting, I've been sharing my observations and opinions when able.

Example? I haven't seen you put anything new into the game. The only thing you mentioned the first time was a past experience of yours. You used it not to join a dead-on-arrival wagon.

Opinions aren't inherently invalid just because somebody else also had them first, and stoz never claimed he was bringing things up for the first time. Not a lie.

I'm actually quite concerned with gob and Dessew defending each other. In #184 gob described Dessew as "my top town" when Dessew's contributions at that time were:

#79: "I wouldn't jump to conclusions regarding the alignments of [Haschel and Hopkirk]." and clarifies a mistake gob made.
#138: "First of all, let's not get carried away [with gobs list]"
#161: "Why [is VeeGee voting] Gob? Why not vijay?"
#182: "The time & energy [stoz] seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable"

Almost everything has been about putting gob in a positive light.

Where? I called him town in 190, is that it?

Where indeed? If only stoz had cited specific posts where Dessew was doing that OH WAIT HE LITERALLY JUST DID:

#79: "I wouldn't jump to conclusions regarding the alignments of [Haschel and Hopkirk]." and

clarifies a mistake gob made

.
#138: "First of all, let's not get carried away

[with gobs list]

"
#161:

"Why [is VeeGee voting] Gob?

Why not vijay?"
#182: "The time & energy [stoz] seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable"

If I had been voting or expressing suspicion of gob I really would believe Dessew was the gob defence force, so Dessew's vote on me is the only part that doesn't stack up. Perhaps Dessew is looking to start a counter-wagon that won't look like OMGUS?

Please, let's not adopt the habit of taking rhetoric questions. Do you think that or not?

Again, this is not a lie, nor is it you pointing out a lie.

[/quote]

This comes across as "I am willing to bus you, but I don't want to."

According to post #253, I'm the first to vote VeeGee, and I haven't taken my vote off since even though other lynch candidates(such as Dessew or gob, or even stoz) have been pointed out. Do you think a mafia would bus their buddy that far on Day 1.

Do I think scum would put pressure on their buddy at the start of the game and then look for a reason to leave? Sure. Also, you haven't moved your vote from him but you also haven't been trying very hard to convince other people to join you.

I was giving my best read on gob at that time. Perhaps you can't see any town motivation for that, but scum wouldn't have any reason to do so either(if I was scum and suspected gob was a powerful role, all I have to do is wait for night and go "pst! let's NK gob!".

At first this appears like a good point, but it ignores one important scenario: rolefishing.

"power role" referring to a powerful role, not a role with a night ability. Cop is an example of a power role; something like Deputy isn't.

Is this standard terminology on those other forums you mentioned? gob, can you confirm/deny?

I wanted feedback about whether gob's accusation of me fence-sitting had any substance, because if it was and people told me I was indeed engaged in fencesitting, that would be a sign to correct my behavior. Same with the reads; if 5 people had responded to that post with "I think you're filthy scum", that would be a sign that I was doing something wrong, especially since this is my first game on MafiaScum(I played in a newbie, but had to be replaced after 3 posts).

If you're worried that other people think you are fence-sitting, then you make sure that your stance is posted unequivocally and move on. There's no reason to test the waters to see if you need to "correct your behavior".

[Klingoncelt]

Happy Scumday, Vijay!


I'm not feeling well tonight. I'll be back tomorrow. See you all then.

[gob]

I also am not feeling too well, tomorrow i am going to review the thread more and contribute.

[Accountant]

Do I think scum would put pressure on their buddy at the start of the game and then look for a reason to leave? Sure. Also, you haven't moved your vote from him but you also haven't been trying very hard to convince other people to join you.

I've received many reasons to leave the VeeGee lynch, including the presence of more popular targets like Dessew or gob. If I wanted to look for a cheap excuse to shift my vote off, I've had a few chances to do so already. As for VeeGee himself, he's V/LA, so I can't really put pressure on him until he comes back.

At first this appears like a good point, but it ignores one important scenario: rolefishing.

How does this help scum!Accountant gain a better lock on gob's real role?

Is this standard terminology on those other forums you mentioned? gob, can you confirm/deny?

It is standard terminology on the Town of Salem forums. This is due to the way their role lists are formatted, which gives categories of roles instead of exact roles; when "power role" is said, it can mean "role that falls under the category Town Power", which usually means the strong, town leading roles.

In FM 7C, I claimed power role day 1, and people still thought I was claiming town power all the way until the start of D2. There isn't really a consensus on the actual meaning of the term "power role" on those forums, with most situations depending on context to figure out. In this case, I feel that gob's actions could be that of a strong, powerful town role acting weirdly to discourage mafia from targeting him.

If you're worried that other people think you are fence-sitting, then you make sure that your stance is posted unequivocally and move on. There's no reason to test the waters to see if you need to "correct your behavior".

That's what I thought I did, but then gob said I was fence-sitting, which made me wonder if I actually was.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Towns of Salem? Lol.

[Accountant]

Constantine, what are your reads?

[SamX]

I'm the dumbest person ever and spilled Apple juice on my MacBook... .______. @mod: I'm going to be V/LA for hopefully 3 days at most. Sorry guys.

Noted! Good luck with that!

[Radja]

Lame joke Bump

A guy walks into a bar and sees 3 pieces of meat hanging from the ceiling. The guy asks, "What's this about?"
The bartender replies, "Well, if you can jump up and slap the meat, you get free drinks for the rest of the night. If you miss, you pay for everyone's drinks for the next hour. You wanna do it?"
The guy replies, "Nah, the steaks are too high."

[Radja]

Lame joke bump

Why did the scarecrow win an award? Because he was outstanding in his field.