Newbie 1795 | Summer | Endgame

[Cece]

Dammit Zito I wanted to call Cero as scum first

VOTE: Cero68

Why "studying to do" and then asking the most googleable fucking questions here Cero?

[Cece]

Mm praps, or to post for easy towncred and also signal 'earnest newbie'~~

[Cece]

1) On balance, one could assume that scum would read up on the game more than town (not saying this is actually the case), as more to hide
2) Posting simple questions reads earnest and honest, but it's weird that he'd post simple qs seven minutes after "studying"

[Cece]

That should read new scum/new town

[Cece]

Oop seventeen not seven, soz on mobile

Also the weird rvs third vote just cause someone else suggested it is weird and responsibility avoiding

[Cece]

:') I didn't think it was *that* bad...

Why Dyou think he's scum then Zito or was it and just pressure?

[Cece]

Eh even if it's not whole-argument worthy, I still find it a bit odd -- not the q itself but the two posts taken in conjunction - Cero why did you end up asking, after what looks like you've decided to go off and read up?

(post 24 and 26 for ref)

[Cece]

and yeah also rationale behind third vote pls

[Cece]

lol fair. it was a pretty weak point.

Why not I suppose.
VOTE: jjh927

I hope I did that right.

& why this?

[Cece]

(Cero -- off the topic of interrogating you -- sorry if it seemed I was asking you not to ask questions! I see how it seemed that way, but it was the two posts together that was what I found odd. Apologies for the confusion ;;)

[Cece]

Your vote's still on jjh C, do you find him scummiest?

[Cece]

(Good good)

I'm p sure we can change as often as we like, so if he's not your top read rn, why not switch your vote to whoever is?

[Cece]

Thoughts on the game so far, Tchill?

Zito if your vote was a bid for pressure it seems to have fizzled a bit -- mind telling us those..powerful reasons?

[Cece]

Also interested to see what fykus and Cece think of the recent conversations between jj and Zito.

I'm not sure. jj reads town to me, I think, I don't see any scum motivations behind his posts. Zito - I'm not sure about.

Don't get the motivation behind not explaining the one vote he's made -- the way he's refusing doesn't look *too* bad but the fact he's refusing makes me uneasy. I agree with jj that there's not much pressure Z's put onto Cero - well, he's asked quite a few questions of him but doesn't reallly seemed to have pushed, but

so I can't tell if it's TvT or not, I guess.

UNVOTE: Cero68

Will read more in detail this arvo and figure out who I want to vote. Cinderella, Notmafia and yourenotmydad need to post more (or at all in Cindy's case), cause I'll be completely unsurprised if there's scum hidden there. NM looks funny to me, not sure why atm, I'll read his stuff more carefully in a bit

[Cece]

Ah no! Oh dear sorry, stupid arse week. Let's look at the last..two pages? Ok well guess I can't complain tis also my fault.

Ok have read thru again.
VOTE: NotMafia

this is not just a lurking/post more prod, a don't think it would do much b would be hypocritical, but seriously all the way those one-liners are going doesn't advance the game, at most it's just questions that he don't seem to follow up on, and I don't see a single honest scumhunting effort even implied in his posts.

It *might* just be a result of not lurking much, but my gut also says that.. I dunno, there's something there. His stuff just also feels contrived, and have difficulty seeing a town mindset behind it. For instance post 133 (I don't know how to link) is v much jumping on the bandwagon - no not even that, cause it's expressing lack of knowledge. Does he even have opinions?

Two replacements - want to see more, but liking Kal so far. jj still town, Fykus/Zito ehhh, Cero more town than before but that might be cause I find NM scummier.

[Cece]

It *might* just be a result of not lurking much

Whoops replace 'lurking' with 'posting'

[Cece]

I suppose one of the things I actually find off, thinking bout it, is that despite the prods he's obviously reading the thread and -possibly- actually has opinions, but isn't posting them. There doesn't even seem to be rhyme or reason in the questions he's asking/comments he's making, there isnt' a point he's leading towards, it's just, like, posting I guess. Also nobody's jumped on him yet and - nah, I'm not sure if mafia would've if he's town, but they might have.

But I guess he might also be replaced soonish - I'm not sure if I should continue my read on him thru to a new player/replacement? Could just be posting style, lack of time, I guess.

[Cece]

I think Cece is an alt

ahaha why is that? never actually played mafia online before.

Also hey one line posts that don't contribute much again.

[Cece]

lol k dude. Airtight case there.

Also btw kind of telling that I'm the only person you've posted a proper opinion of so far, and it's not even about my alignment? v v good.

[Cece]

Fykus is an obvious alt, so I'm curious to see what he'll do.

I think Cece is an alt

Also this is a thing. Not sure why. Wouldn't it be funny if they were mafia together?

[Cece]

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

Also, NM, why claim now? I thought we'd been saying that we'd not do it for a while, if we did.

Vote is staying on til NM replies.

[Cece]

(As in, before anyone else claims yay or nay)

[Cece]

That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.

However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.


We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

I understand kawls reluctance to the strategy. Either way it's a good idea. Not BP. Unless not_mafia confirms pretty soon he's not shit posting I feel like we should lynch him.

Why the sudden call for lynch, you two? You weren't voting him before, and I seriously doubt that shitposting (this way, anyway) is a huge scumtell.

[Cece]

Ok wow lol, brill. One scum caught. Hooray!

Staying on NM. Read him as mafia before. Although I don't really understand the motivation of the scum here, either NM or tchill.

Also I read tchill's response to NM claiming - that is, checking if he's shitposting, then checking the BP strategy, then claiming, as town. I think perhaps scum would've been more cautious.

Just in case, in the intervening time between now and hammer, please nobody claim to support either of the two. We'll be lynching a scum either way, so, not optimal play hey.

[Cece]

*less cautious

[Cece]

Yo, will respond to case before I head to uni, then readthrough more carefully later tonight and figure out what I think. Responses in italics.

Fykus is an obvious alt, so I'm curious to see what he'll do.

I think Cece is an alt

Also this is a thing. Not sure why. Wouldn't it be funny if they were mafia together?

This is a lovely bit of shading.

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

Also, NM, why claim now? I thought we'd been saying that we'd not do it for a while, if we did.

Vote is staying on til NM replies.

This is some unnecessary yet active participation in the discussion immediately following NM's claim. The thing is, that first point had been said already and that second point is redundant.

Ya fair point. I don't think I actually had anything really important to say here - wanted to wait for NM to confirm before deciding to stay on him or not. I did ask the question cause, assuming he wasn't shitposting, I wanted to check his motivations. Seemed weird to me, given that I think only Cero and i were voting him, so he was p far from a lynch.

That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.

However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.


We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

I understand kawls reluctance to the strategy. Either way it's a good idea. Not BP. Unless not_mafia confirms pretty soon he's not shit posting I feel like we should lynch him.

Why the sudden call for lynch, you two? You weren't voting him before, and I seriously doubt that shitposting (this way, anyway) is a huge scumtell.

I grabbed this post a bit earlier. This is really scummy with knowledge of the flip, IMO. It's important to note we weren't calling for an immediate lynch there, and, more importantly, Cece had been voting NM for some time before this. The particular way she goes about defending someone she has a vote on here feels really off.

Wasn't trying defend NM, I wanted to know what you two were thinking. Those two posts read odd to me - I don't reckon shitposting is enough to call for a lynch, and didn't like the call for lynch without NM replying. If NM had actually been the BP then - given his lack of posting at this time - it felt like a way to push for a wagon w/o confirmation.

Then she goes and misses most of the NM V Tchill discussion. Not necessarily AI, but it's worth noting she stayed out of it from here until the end.

Just to say that this discussion took place over 3 hours. I'm not online all the time. (AI?)

Ok wow lol, brill. One scum caught. Hooray!

Staying on NM. Read him as mafia before. Although I don't really understand the motivation of the scum here, either NM or tchill.

Also I read tchill's response to NM claiming - that is, checking if he's shitposting, then checking the BP strategy, then claiming, as town. I think perhaps scum would've been more cautious.

Just in case, in the intervening time between now and hammer, please nobody claim to support either of the two. We'll be lynching a scum either way, so, not optimal play hey.

I don't read any of this post as even remotely sincere. It's really really off. There's the celebration at the start, there's the stating of the obvious, and there's the last sentence which I find really weird and somewhat nonsensical.

Ok not sure how to respond to this one. Dunno why celebration is weird, not sure either where I'm stating sth obvious (the last part of the first sentence?) also not sure what's wrong with stating sth obvious unless that's literally all you do - and I can't remember fully but I think the last sentence was in response to someone saying that one of NM/Tchill could be rolefishing for someone else - it is a newbie game and not everyone's necessarily gonna be familiar with BP strategy, or PR strategy generally. Didn't want to risk it.

That should be all.

[Cece]

Sorry missed the first quote - I don't know what shading is?

[Cece]

Zito, are your reads purely based on "wagons and flips"? Are they affected at all by the way people are posting, or their motives &c? Cause seems to me that just having reads based on things ilke those is a bit of an easy way to not be forced to argue so much.

For instance, I reckon the point that I was on NMs case before he claimed BP a bit off, cause really when I voted him he wasn't at risk of a lynch. Same w Cero, I guess, and while from just a wagon analysis it might seem pretty strong, from a posting one it doesn't, so much. I reckon, say, posting styles throughout would be a better way to get reads, but you dont really mention that.

[Cece]

Those are my reads based on our wagons and flips.

I see where jj is coming from with that case but he doesn't really address why she'd be on Not_Mafia at that moment in time. Her defense is weak (and hard to read ffs) but I'm more inclined to let those two play than get involved really.

I mostly want Kowls to get in here and do things.

Un game related, but sorry for difficult to read posts - if you have ways you'd like me to make them easier to read do let me know. I was wary, i think, of messing with quote tags/spoiler tage, cause I reckon I'd probs have fucked something up.

For the record Zito, I'm staying out of your push on Kawl for the same reason as you're staying out of mine on Cece.



Cece- who is your main scumread right now?

Agh I was gonna do a proper readthrough tonight, particularly looking at everyone's interactions with NM, but decided to get hammered instead. Gutwise, without a recent detailed readthrough, I'm not feeling ok with Zito. His townread on me (and probs other people save tchill) feels super weak - its not like I lead the lynch on NM and tbf even if my case was strong-ish, without the fake BP claim it wouldn't have lead to a lynch. I don't like the only wagon/lynch crew justification for townreads, I think I mentioned earlier but it feels like an easy copout.

Saying 'Cece's town cause she was first on NM with a case' - eh, it's weak and if I were scum I could've easily done the same thing. I don't reckon there would've been a way for scum me to figure out that would lead to a lynch. Although maybe it would be too strong/long a case? I dunno. Feels off to me.

Lol I reckon I just don't like the pure-wagon reading, it seems too open to mistakes, and too pointable to "here are solid facts! My reads are based on facts, not opinions! You can't read me as scum for this, it's all based on facts!

Sorry for any mistakes. Also, sorry for focusing on Zito's stuff on me, haven't had a chance to properly sit down and take notes &c, so the bits I remember are largely the stuff that concerns me.

Am not voting for these reasons also, but my main - not scumread, is not that strong - but off-feeling is Zito atm.

[Cece]

Also jj, please explain what shading is -- couldn't find anything but art stuff on google??

[Cece]

Cece what do you think about Zito case on fykus? You don't like the basis of his case?

Zito made a case on Fykus? do you mean someone else? couldn't find it in his iso.

Bed now. Read tomorrow.

[Cece]

Cece, my understanding is that "shading" refers to when you try to loosely imply someone is scum or suggest that they are without making any direct accusations or stating your opinions wholesale.


Now, the case with that is that, knowing that NM was scum, you figured you'd throw in a bit of early shade on Zito, linking the two. On that note, the person you would be trying to get lynched today would be Zito. Funny that, isn't it?

Yes, true, that could be possible. Of course, the other possibility was that I was already unsure about Z, and that the alt thing was an interesting correlation......but, that couldn't be right, right? I totally read Zito as town the first day...

Also interested to see what fykus and Cece think of the recent conversations between jj and Zito.

I'm not sure. jj reads town to me, I think, I don't see any scum motivations behind his posts.

Zito - I'm not sure about.

Don't get the motivation behind not explaining the one vote he's made -- the way he's refusing doesn't look *too* bad but the fact he's refusing makes me uneasy. I agree with jj that there's not much pressure Z's put onto Cero - well, he's asked quite a few questions of him but doesn't reallly seemed to have pushed, but

so I can't tell if it's TvT or not, I guess.

Hold on, is this me questioning Zito's motivations? (ps. is this him refusing to elucidate opinions -- p much his only opinion as far as I can recall that isn't based on wagons and vote counts??)

Two replacements - want to see more, but liking Kal so far. jj still town,

Fykus/Zito ehhh

, Cero more town than before but that might be cause I find NM scummier.

Huh wait, this also looks like Zito being one of my scum reads..save NM and possibly Cero. Fancy that!

Fykus is an obvious alt, so I'm curious to see what he'll do.

I think Cece is an alt

Also this is a thing. Not sure why. Wouldn't it be funny if they were mafia together?

And yeah, it's completely impossible that, having read NM as scum, that I'd pick up on the alt thing and point it out. And, srsly tho, it would be kind of funny. I totally stand by that statement.

Have read thru, more detailed than before. Am more ok than before of Zito being scum. Am fine with putting him at L1.

VOTE: Papa Zito

I am sorry for 'pushing a lynch'. Although, in terms of what being called 'pushing a lynch' I'd say I've done p well so far

[Cece]

irony how?

[Cece]

Completely different. You didn't post reasoning after, a) implying it was a pressure vote, and b) it becoming obvious that the pressure didn't work. Or, at least, not till some decent time has gone by.

Also, I provided my reasoning in my last post. I believe I also said that I didn't want to vote you cause I was drunk, and I wanted to do a more detailed readthrough of this day/last day to see what I thought. and like I said, after that readthrough I haven't changed my mind.

I might disagree with purely wagon/vote reasoning, which is a way of playing and isn't in itself necessarily scummy --- if I thought that it would be p shitty cause that's kind of 'my way or the highway' thinking. But, I don't like the way you do it. I also don't like the relatively easy defence of "facts" that you use, and PARTICULARLY the fact that you've set up your reads and reasons for your reads in such a way, that you can defend yourself by defending a strategy. That's analysis of theory, and not a defence of play.

[Cece]

Spoiler:

Those are my reads based on our wagons and flips.

I see where jj is coming from with that case but he doesn't really address why she'd be on Not_Mafia at that moment in time. Her defense is weak (and hard to read ffs) but I'm more inclined to let those two play than get involved really.

I mostly want Kowls to get in here and do things.

Un game related, but sorry for difficult to read posts - if you have ways you'd like me to make them easier to read do let me know. I was wary, i think, of messing with quote tags/spoiler tage, cause I reckon I'd probs have fucked something up.

For the record Zito, I'm staying out of your push on Kawl for the same reason as you're staying out of mine on Cece.



Cece- who is your main scumread right now?

Agh I was gonna do a proper readthrough tonight, particularly looking at everyone's interactions with NM, but decided to get hammered instead. Gutwise, without a recent detailed readthrough, I'm not feeling ok with Zito. His townread on me (and probs other people save tchill) feels super weak - its not like I lead the lynch on NM and tbf even if my case was strong-ish, without the fake BP claim it wouldn't have lead to a lynch. I don't like the only wagon/lynch crew justification for townreads, I think I mentioned earlier but it feels like an easy copout.

Saying 'Cece's town cause she was first on NM with a case' - eh, it's weak and if I were scum I could've easily done the same thing. I don't reckon there would've been a way for scum me to figure out that would lead to a lynch. Although maybe it would be too strong/long a case? I dunno. Feels off to me.

Lol I reckon I just don't like the pure-wagon reading, it seems too open to mistakes, and too pointable to "here are solid facts! My reads are based on facts, not opinions! You can't read me as scum for this, it's all based on facts!

Sorry for any mistakes. Also, sorry for focusing on Zito's stuff on me, haven't had a chance to properly sit down and take notes &c, so the bits I remember are largely the stuff that concerns me.

Am not voting for these reasons also, but my main - not scumread, is not that strong - but off-feeling is Zito atm.

Here is my reasoning (post 449). Accusing me of voting w/o reasoning is as disingenuous as accusing Arnold of hammering without reasoning.

[Cece]

...that spoiler tag did not work for some reason. Apologies.

Fixed

-PenguinMod

[Cece]

Ok thanks.

I've once again hit that "you're not playing how I want" wall.

I might disagree with purely wagon/vote reasoning, which is a way of playing and isn't in itself necessarily scummy --- if I thought that it would be p shitty cause that's kind of 'my way or the highway' thinking. But, I don't like the way you do it. I also don't like the relatively easy defence of "facts" that you use, and PARTICULARLY the fact that you've set up your reads and reasons for your reads in such a way, that you can defend yourself by defending a strategy. That's analysis of theory, and not a defence of play.

Just to point out that I tried to make it clear that it wasn't purely for the strategy, but the way in which it was excetuted.

Although........thinking it thru, I may not have made quite enough of an effort to separate the two in my own mind. It is possible that my dislike of the strat is influencing my read on you, which I'd like not to happen.

So, UNVOTE: Papa Zito

This is only until I can read through post work tomorrow and make absolutely sure my read on Z is unconnected to the value of the strategy, and not for the way he employs it. I'd do it now but tis late and working tomoz, not in the best frame of mind.

[Cece]

And also, assuming the latter is the case rather than the former, I'll also attempt to clarify my exact problems with the way he employs the strat. off to bed now, till tomorrow.

[Cece]

Just briefly -- the reason I hopped off Zito wasn't just because he was at L-1 - it was, specifically, a combination of that and the point that I might have been blurring playstyle/scumread more than I wanted to, and I didn't want to keep someone at L-1 without reading thru and making sure that I wasn't scumreading him purely for playstyle, cause, you know, that's not a thing I like.

Speaking of, am getting on that right now. Post in a short while with thoughts.

[Cece]

Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.

This is a thing I just don't understand, by the by, why couldn't you NK Kawl if he turns out to be great? Might have missed a conversation bit.


--------------------


Ok. I think I've hit upon at least one reason for my uneasiness on Zito, perhaps two. I'm making an effort not to let opinions on the playstyle influence this - if you reckon there's a bit where it has please point it out.

It's not the wagon/flip reads that's just got me, it's specifically

the way in which

they don't mesh with the way he's playing outside of that.

From same post as above:

I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid.

If you don't consider playstyle AI, then you can't defend the playstyle as something scum, or at least smart scum, wouldn't do. Either it's AI or its not - and the catch all "scum wouldn't do this because it's limiting" is super super broad and also disengenuous.

I get The Plan but it seems to hinge on the scums not getting a successful bp fakeclaim off. Maybe I'm not thinking things through and that's not a legit worry tho.

This is before you've 'hard data-d' on Kawl for disagreeing with the bp strat. Personally I find the way Kawl disagreed to be far more town than this one ---- it was direct and honest. This is a super early post about it - I believe shortly after jj had posted? - and it's very subtly against it. If I were looking at motivations as Zito wanted me to, there is a very clear motivation for scum Zito here - a subtle disencouragement from the IC player, when it's both early on when the strat's been proposed, but also not enough against it to be called out.


ALso, this might be a day 1 weirdness thing, but I'm having trouble understanding Z's motivations for all the questions he asks, if he's planning on making reads

purely

from wagons and votes. Also,

A vote is hard data, period. That's why we force people to make them. It's a historical record of a stance at a given point in time. jfc I know this is a newbie but come on

For someone for whom votes are so important, and I also want to stress

at a given point in time

, on both days he's parked his vote on in his first substantial post and not shifted it once. Sure, he was away when the NM/tchill thing happened, but, still, if he's thinking that vote analysis is super important, then if he were town he's not acting in a way which indicates his own vote/analysis thereof would be easily readable.


now - again making sure I'm not scumreading for playstyle - I don't

necessarily

read any of these things - not shifting votes, being against the bp strat, defending your playstyle as sth scum wouldn't use - as scummy, but they don't make sense with what you've stated about your playstyle, they're things you've read other people as scum for, and those particular inconsistencies are what make me read you as scum.

VOTE: Papa Zito

[Cece]

From a real quick iso, I also understand the stuff on Arnold. Zito reads scummier to me, but I'll do a substantial read on arnold tomorrow sometime.

[Cece]

Zito, why the sudden questioning of your read on me? I was strong town at the start of the day, then you change tack pretty much right after I make the case on you, and are suddenly 'really unsure' (519) --- especially since you don't have an updated read on anything new I've done, it's purely based on points other people have made that you didn't find scummy before. Why the change of heart?

Could you also answer my other question about why you couldn't NK kawl? (511)

Cero, can you post your current views, without worrying if they'll "get us something" (488)


Oh, and I don't see why Zito is an easy mislynch. That seems to be generally accepted by a bunch of you, but I don't see why.

[Cece]

Sorry if it looks that way, I have been reading through everything.

And yeah, you did explain your reasoning, but I wasn't asking that - I was pointing out the suddenness of the read. Specifically, that it was your very first post after the case I made, an there hadn't really be a hint of it before. Or, at least, not such as I could see. I was wanting to know the reasoning behind the timing of the switch.

[Cece]

Although, ugh, fair point, I have been focusing on myself/reads of me a lot this day. Sorry bout that.

[Cece]

lol could just have been lurking though. but yeah sorry for absence, had a busy essay/health week and planned everything badly.

I read jj and probably Cero as town. Not sure in between Arnie and Z, mostly cause I haven't read the former in depth yet. Doing that now, but.

[Cece]

Thing about you Arnold is that you haven't really had any scumreads throughout the game - the closest you come to is a couple of scum leans yesterday (Kawl and Zito) - you have a total of five votes in the whole game, and like now you've ended up with PoE rather than any active scumreads. What's the point of this? Why do you think you find it so difficult to read people as scum? Cause from where I'm standing, if you are scum, then this seems motivated by not pissing anyone off.

That said I'm still uncertain of Zito's middle-end of day 2, but withholding judgement til I get a better read on arnold.

[Cece]

like, it's a lot easier to say you're reading someone as town, when you're scum

you can be right and be right more often without the worry you'll contribute to the lynch of your partner

and poss get towncred when your town reads flip, well, town

[Cece]

A scum lean is still a scumread for me. It just means I'm not 100% convinced about the read.

Zito and Kawl were my scumreads.

My reads

Town: Tchill, Cece, jj
Lean town: -
Null: Cero
Lean Scum: Kawl, Zito
Scum: -

Ok so you

were

100% town on me and jj? To the point of being as certain of us as you were of the confirmed cop?

Or, you weren't 100% certain but you have different standards for townreads and scumreads?

Either way, you're privileging the former.

[Cece]

o.o ok. I do find the absolute certainty a bit weird but.

Would you say you're usually more confident on town reads than scum reads?

for PoE I'm presuming that you read Cero as townleaning as jj and I, or at least close. did a quick iso (ctrl f so might have missed something) and the last time you mentioned him he was null (in the post quoted above). What changed? Why do you have a town read on him now - one strong enough to do PoE when you're not entirely sure of Zito being scum?

[Cece]

NB I'm assuming you're not certain of Zito as scum because you're doing a PoE and not just saying like "he's scum! because reasons x, y, and z!"

that is, from your posts I'd assume that your reads on Cero and Zito would be closer together than you're saying today, and not close enough to justify PoE.

[Cece]

Arnold I'll check out yr games tonight or tomorrow. Am also wanting that readthrough from Zito before I make any proper decisions.

[Cece]

Zito, I'm waiting for a substantial post from you cause I'm in between you and Arnold, and so of course I want it before I decide.

I'll also reread the two of you before work, and probably Cero/Black as well

[Cece]

And ftr, while I'm not happy with jj's read on me based on log in stuff, adds to/close to confirms my town read on him, cause he seems to be the only one that seen it, and I can't think of any possible for scum bringing that up

[Cece]

Internet's out at my place till tomorrow, read through the last couple of pages then, sorry, no time to think at work.

[Cece]

Zito how can you get annoyed at black star "using your personal life against you" - when he said you bailed - when you just used Cero's replacing out against him the post before?? Like it's basically the same thing.

Yeah sure J, I won't hammer

Internet's still out btw so am phone posting, which I hate, and might miss things.

[Cece]

Look it's not factually incorrect that you were bailing/not here for ages
And sure I dislike points like that, but black was making it in a direct response to you doing the same thing to Cero
But it's hypocritical for you to get up in arms when you've just don'e it
And also to get kind of weirdly offended when I thought it was fairly obvious it was a direct response to you doing the same

[Cece]

Jeez Zito

I wasn't saying blacks argument was justified

I wasn't saying you should be criticised for being away

But you can't take it as a personal attack when you JUST BEFORE said Cero replacing was a scum thing!! That's the hypocrisy!!

Or is it only personal when it's against you? Black made a reversed argument! Like he actually literally compared it in his post! How can you not see that?

[Cece]

Also there's no need to be so fucking sarcastic

[Cece]

Ok I also need to read through carefully, which I'll do latter today when I can get to uni and computers.

[Cece]

As far as I'm aware, scum don't have daychat here. You really think that nm would have planned a ridic gambit like that *before* the day even started? I mean it made little enough sense when he did it, even if it were off the cuff

If it were the case, why the hell would I go at him *that* hard? I mean it was a fairly substantial post. Looking at it like that, Cero/you as scum would actually make way more sense considering, how to put it, like a weakly justified scumread based basically on my case- that's sth I could see scum doing a hell of a lot more than a huge case

And lol you really think I would have pushed that hard knowing that he was going to claim bp? You think I'd have gone along with it in the first place?? I mean that's kind of insulting lolol

[Cece]

Ps I'm still on mobile cause of bastard internet companies and didn't make it into uni yesterday. Am popping there once I have a shower, so will post substantially in an hr or three. Hopefully. Do not have a strong read on either of you really so