Micro 746: The Deco Murders - Game Over!

[Inferno390]

Let's start with a bang, shall we?
VOTE: Gorny
And is this game a specific setup?

[Inferno390]

Let's start with a bang, shall we?
VOTE: Gorny
And is this game a specific setup?

Sure, let's dance!

VOTE: Inferno390

Cool beans. Good luck to you, mate!

[Inferno390]

This is a newbie friendly game, so I'd imagine something close to the Matrix6 setup. Beyond that...who knows.

Newbie friendly. Perfect for newbies like me. But since it's newbie friendly, and there's so much debate over how Matrix6 works, could this be a trial of Backup6?

[Inferno390]

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

We sure do love spreading the votes around, don't we?

[Inferno390]

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

raya or gorny....

decisions, decisions

raya i rolled scum the last time clearly i didn't this time smh

VOTE: gorny

Can't always count on that

So, why choose a gorny vote over me?

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

raya or gorny....

decisions, decisions

raya i rolled scum the last time clearly i didn't this time smh

VOTE: gorny

An excellent question. Why did you decide to begin a wagon on Gormy with me, when there are plenty of other players that don't have a vote on them yet?

[Inferno390]

ohh forgot to mention I will be V/LA from the 11th to the 16th. I will still be around just limited activity, though the 13th and the 14th I may be too busy to check in.

Good to know.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

This seems pretty scummy. OMGUS voting yourself on the first day? Seems like a ploy to get a few laughs and to blend in with the town to me. Please explain your thoughts further, but

FoS

[Inferno390]

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

This seems pretty scummy. OMGUS voting yourself on the first day? Seems like a ploy to get a few laughs and to blend in with the town to me. Please explain your thoughts further, but

FoS

If yoi think Vij is scummy why not move your vote there rather than leaving it on gorny?[/quote]

Because 1) I explained my thoughts on the situation and I'd like to see what Virjarada has to say before I move any further down that road; 2) because currently I am on a wagon with Acidphoenix and that might provide good scumhunting information once he responds (and acid responds, now that I think about it) 3) Moving my vote all over the place will make scumhunting for me harder; 4) because a wagon with one of the people on it that victim is not that helpful for scumhunting, and 5) if what I say about Vij is logical, that I don't really need to move my vote because everyone else will now at least start seriously considering Vij's actions. That's what needs to happen, not just form a sudden wagon to attack Vij.

[Inferno390]

And them my quote messed up too. What the heck?

[Inferno390]

Fair enough. Your statement would be more powerful with a vote but if you think that your vote is better where it is now than that is fair.

Cool beans. Now let's talk about your thoughts.

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

raya or gorny....

decisions, decisions

raya i rolled scum the last time clearly i didn't this time smh

VOTE: gorny

So what's your thought on choosing a wagon on Gorny over a wagon on you or me? Any idea on what acid could be looking for?

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

What do you think when you read this? Does it seem scummy, or is that just me? Would scum actually vote himself jokingly to draw off suspicion, or would that be to obvious? And Vij is obviously no newbie, but do you think he would think about that play normally?

[Inferno390]

VOTE: Inferno390

What's with the sudden vote change there?

[Inferno390]

Because you're scum.

Elaborate. What exactly have I done that makes me scum?

[Inferno390]

Because 1) I explained my thoughts on the situation and I'd like to see what Virjarada has to say before I move any further down that road; 2) because currently I am on a wagon with Acidphoenix and that might provide good scumhunting information once he responds (and acid responds, now that I think about it) 3) Moving my vote all over the place will make scumhunting for me harder; 4) because a wagon with one of the people on it that victim is not that helpful for scumhunting, and 5) if what I say about Vij is logical, that I don't really need to move my vote because everyone else will now at least start seriously considering Vij's actions. That's what needs to happen, not just form a sudden wagon to attack Vij.

You're on an RVS wagon that you started. Unless you're converting that vote to a serious scum vote (in which case, why?), I'm not following your logic here.

I'm not converting that to a serious vote (yet). But I feel like a two man wagon will be better at putting a little pressure on Gorny for a read than one vote. I also don't want to move my vote around like crazy, I want to do some grilling and then move on if the read I get looks town. The point of my FoS was to make the point that what Vij did could potentially be pretty scummy, so others wouldn't overlook it as a post where Vij is just messing around a little bit or looking active while trying to see what everyone else did. But it's too early to jump to a lot of assumptions about his motives (especially since he hasn't responded to my FoS yet), so I don't want to move my vote prematurely and miss out on the opportunity to try and read Gorny. And there's still plenty of time in Day 1; if more evidence comes around that make Vij look any scummier, I'll move my vote. There's a reason I used FoS instead of HoS.

In summary, I'm comfortable with my vote where it is in terms of trying to scumhunt, I don't want to move around all over the place, and I feel like I've made enough of a case for people to start paying attention to Vij and what he says and does so that I don't need to move my vote just yet.

[Inferno390]

^
trying way too hard.

How the fuck is self-voting in RVS is scummy? And earlier you said that it seemed pretty scummy, and now it is just "potentially" pretty scummy? And it also seems like you ignored Raya's statement that self-voting in RVS is actually NAI...in which she is correct.

Yes, it seems pretty scummy... to me. I guess I'm the only one then. But I don't understand what's NOT scummy about voting for yourself day one. That isn't helping with scumreading at all, why the heck would you vote for yourself, except to get people to think our just screwing around? What's the point of that? It doesn't help anyone except the mafia.

But like I said, it's way too early to tell what the reasoning behind Vij's self-vote. So it has the potential of being scummy, we just need to see what he says about it to gather further information.

And I can't find a single point where anyone actually said that it was NAI other than you. What post are you referring to, exactly?

While I may not completely agree with the logic I do see where Inferno is coming from plus he seems really genuine in believing that his vote is better where it is. While he's genuine in thay part I'm not confident he is genuine about thinking self-voting is scummy in rvs. We have a lot from him on why his vote is better where it is but very little on why he actually thinks vij is scummy.

Inferno, can you explain in a little more detail why you think Vij's self vote is scummy? So far from my understanding it's because he could be trying to blend in but what makes his post stand out from any of the other rvs votes?

As said in response to TywinL, voting yourself right now does no one any good at all... except the mafia. At least the logical thing to do (in my mind) would be to vote someone who doesn't have any votes on them yet or put a little more pressure on someone who is already being read. Voting for yourself? It's illogical. It isn't helping with scumreading at all. So I feel like that it's at least something to be looked at as I move forward, if not a point to scummy behavior completely.

Like I said, there is a reason I've only used FoS on Vij so far. There's just not enough information yet to make a judge on whether he is scum or not. But it does seem like its very unhelpful to the town.

[Inferno390]

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

Why are you trying so hard to paint my actions as scummy? Why are you taking my thinking and immeadiately saying that it's scum?
We can play the painting game all day.

[Inferno390]

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

What do you mean by NAI? And how is my reaction to the self-vote scummy? I've said that there is definitely more evidence needed, and I have not come out and said that Vij is scum, I've just said that his actions right now do not help the town, and that seems scummy to me.
And whenever someone confronts you about why you're attacking ME, your response is that I'm just scum. That's Argument of Repetition, which is logical fallacy. You've offered no reason for me being scum other than "I don't like your response, so therefore, you're obviously scum." So don't accuse me of painting Vij when all your doing is saying basically the same thing over and over. I've been bringing logic to my thoughts.

[Inferno390]

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

What do you mean by NAI? And how is my reaction to the self-vote scummy? I've said that there is definitely more evidence needed, and I have not come out and said that Vij is scum, I've just said that his actions right now do not help the town, and that seems scummy to me.
And whenever someone confronts you about why you're attacking ME, your response is that I'm just scum. That's Argument of Repetition, which is logical fallacy. You've offered no reason for me being scum other than "I don't like your response, so therefore, you're obviously scum." So don't accuse me of painting Vij when all your doing is saying basically the same thing over and over. I've been bringing logic to my thoughts.

NAI = Non-alignment indicative. When you say something is scummy, it is fair for people to assume that you are scumreading that slot. Now you are saying that "there is definitely more evidence need" while literally saying "I have not come out and said that Vij is scum". I thought Vij was scum? You need to own your reads, but that not something that scum does, which is why I think you are scum.

Also quit saying that you have logic for Vij being scum because Raya literally debunked that by saying that it's actually NAI. Also, you STILL have not responded to my Raya quote still. I agree with her and I want you to answer why you won't even consider that Vij could also do it as town. Self-voting =/= scum.

Also again, I am not just saying " You are just scum" but rather your reaction is scummy as fuck to me. And, that's good enough for me. Along with your blatant avoiding to answer my question on why Vij couldn't do it as town.

To start off, you're quoting me out of context, which is definitely not cool.
1. You never asked me if Vij could do it as town. You just jumped on my case and said that "I was scum."
2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.
3. You're pitching a fit that I said "there is definitely more evidence needed," yet you say that I won't even consider that "Vij could also do it as town." Which is exactly what "it's way too early to tell what the reasoning behind Vij's self-vote" means (Post #42 if you want to check that)
4. You have just said that I was scum (again, you want to check, post #34).
5. I have never actually said that Vij was scum. I fact, I haven't even voted for her as scum yet. I just FoS. So you're making a giant fuss over an FoS, which literally means, "I think you're suspicious, but I don't want to move my vote to you yet."
6. Why the heck are you defending him? Vij on his part has voted for himself and then lurked this entire time, refusing to defend himself, and all you've done is defend him to attack me. Classic Chainsaw defense. So, if it turns out that Vij is scum, you make for a pretty swell looking scumbuddy.

[Inferno390]

1. You never asked me if Vij could do it as town. You just jumped on my case and said that "I was scum."
WTF?? Yes I did. Go read my posts again.

2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.
"I have seen town do similar things to this before" = NAI. If either alignment can do it. It makes absolutely no sense to say something is scummy whereas town could do it too.

3. You're pitching a fit that I said "there is definitely more evidence needed," yet you say that I won't even consider that "Vij could also do it as town." Which is exactly what "it's way too early to tell what the reasoning behind Vij's self-vote" means (Post #42 if you want to check that)
I have already told you, there is no reasoning. It's just RVS. You are trying to jump to conclusions but there is absolutely nothing to conclude.

4. You have just said that I was scum (again, you want to check, post #34).
I outlined why I think you are scum in post 47.

5. I have never actually said that Vij was scum. I fact, I haven't even voted for her as scum yet. I just FoS. So you're making a giant fuss over an FoS, which literally means, "I think you're suspicious, but I don't want to move my vote to you yet."
You said that it was scummy, which was good enough for me. But whatever.

6. Why the heck are you defending him? Vij on his part has voted for himself and then lurked this entire time, refusing to defend himself, and all you've done is defend him to attack me. Classic Chainsaw defense. So, if it turns out that Vij is scum, you make for a pretty swell looking scumbuddy.
I am not defending him. I am questioning your logic and I do not like your reasons. Also lmao, glad that I'm the scumbuddy now. Notice how I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia voting Vij?

1. You'll tell me that you did it, but then not quote a post. And I can't find any post that asks that question.
2. No, that means that there's no way to conclude if he is actually scum or not. Not that what he did isn't scummy, which is all that I've been saying this entire time. Just because town players can do it too doesn't mean that it's not scummy. Town can lie about their role in a gambit attempt too, but that doesn't make THAT any less scummy.
3. I haven't jumped to a conclusion. I just said the post looked scummy. Hence the FoS instead of a vote change.
4. What you said in post #47 is not only hard to read, but can be summarized as "I don't like that you FoS'ed Vij, and I don't like the fact that you're agreeing that he can't be definitely defined as scum, so therefore, you're scum." So no, you have not given a reason for as to why I'm scum, you just don't like my arguments for why his post is scummy.
5. It does look scummy. But so does attacking me with no real reason, acidphoenix jumping on Gorny's wagon, or plenty of other things that have happened so far in this game or will happen in this game. And again, you just took me saying it looked scummy as an excuse to attack me, which looks a whole lot scummier than me using FoS to say I don't think that what Vij is doing is in town's best interests, so that looks scummy to me. You have no real reason to be attacking me.
6. So you're telling me that you don't care about Not_Mafia's vote, but you sure as heck are all over me for my FoS. That makes less sense than using the Chainsaw Defense! And all you've done is attack me by saying that there is no real evidence for Vij's post to look even remotely scummy. That's called defending. The definition of defense is literally "an argument in support or justification" (Merriam Webster, definition 3b). So yes, you have done nothing but defend his self-vote and then used that as a base to attack me.

In light of all of this, you now look even scummier than Vij! Good job! You've earned yourself a wagon!
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TywinL

[Inferno390]

I self-voted purely because it never fails to get the game out of RVS. It used to be there was always some person who would start jumping on anyone who didn't vote in RVS but now self-voting is what does the trick.

and I think Inferno called me "obviously no newbie?". yeah don't trust my joindate lmao. this is like my fifth or sixth mafia game under this account and I played ten or so three years ago. i uh...hate mafia and love reality television tbh.

Well, you did a good job of it. Now TwinyL and I are at each other's throats!
But that's also not the strongest argument, and I like to err on the side of caution, so the FoS on you remains.

[Inferno390]

holy crap the game hasn't been going for 24 hours yet and we are already this serious.

I also believe that a self vote is NAI. However inferno reading so much into it is a bit worrisome. How experienced are you? I know there are players that just always start of every game voting for themselves. I will re read the whole exchange again tomorrow, currently 10:30 PM here and I have been up since 5 AM and need to get up at that time again tomorrow so I will comment more on it then.

Since I asked I thought I should also volunteer, I am still a bloody newbie gaining some experience. My experience level is a bit odd though since I used to play a lot on a different site(with a different site meta though) but that was years ago. I would however still rate myself as a newbie since I haven't even played a whole newbie game on this site yet. So if I seem to know some things but then ask about something else that is very basic please don't be confused.

PEDIT - YAY i remembered correctly that some players just self vote

PEDIT#2 - I am too tiered to read these long posts, sorry inferno

Well, I'm a bloody newbie too, so we share a least something in common lol. But to summarize, I feel like that's a slightly scummy play, TywinL jumped all over my case for an FoS, and we've been going back and forth on whether or not I've actually called anyone scum.
On another note, I think that it's funny that I didn't really jump on Vij's case at all, just said it looked suspicious and FoS'ed it, and TywinL was the one who started the jumping.

[Inferno390]

Of course, I'M the scum, the guy who at least tried to explain his thinking, not TywinL, the guy who just changed his vote and wasn't even going to explain why until I confronted him.

[Inferno390]

Lmao, I was about to reveal that I was using Inferno as a reaction test and I was lying about my scum-read on Inferno but now I actually think Inferno is scum. That OMGUS from Inferno is just unreal, but I will most more in detail later. Also lol at Inferno keeping his FoS on Vij.

p-edit: lol

WHAT?!?

You're telling me that after all of that, I was just a "reaction test?" You were just "lying about my scum-read?"
This is quite literally the DUMBEST THING I've ever heard in Mafia. Not only are you saying that I had an OMGUS vote (which I gave because your arguments are REALLY bad, not just because), but are kindly leaving out the fact that YOUR first post about anything that I did was an OMGUS, AND you were LYING, which is incredibly hurtful to the town! If this whole thing didn't reek of scum (which it totally does), we should lynch you anyways because of LyAL policy! This "confession" actually makes you scummier than you did before! Now you just look like you're covering for yourself!

[Inferno390]

Going to take this one step at a time. 1:

^
trying way too hard.

How the fuck is self-voting in RVS is scummy? And earlier you said that it seemed pretty scummy, and now it is just "potentially" pretty scummy? And it also seems like you ignored Raya's statement that self-voting in RVS is actually NAI...in which she is correct.

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

What do you mean by NAI? And how is my reaction to the self-vote scummy? I've said that there is definitely more evidence needed, and I have not come out and said that Vij is scum, I've just said that his actions right now do not help the town, and that seems scummy to me.
And whenever someone confronts you about why you're attacking ME, your response is that I'm just scum. That's Argument of Repetition, which is logical fallacy. You've offered no reason for me being scum other than "I don't like your response, so therefore, you're obviously scum." So don't accuse me of painting Vij when all your doing is saying basically the same thing over and over. I've been bringing logic to my thoughts.

NAI = Non-alignment indicative. When you say something is scummy, it is fair for people to assume that you are scumreading that slot. Now you are saying that "there is definitely more evidence need" while literally saying "I have not come out and said that Vij is scum". I thought Vij was scum? You need to own your reads, but that not something that scum does, which is why I think you are scum.

Also quit saying that you have logic for Vij being scum because Raya literally debunked that by saying that it's actually NAI. Also, you STILL have not responded to my Raya quote still. I agree with her and I want you to answer why you won't even consider that Vij could also do it as town. Self-voting =/= scum.

Also again, I am not just saying " You are just scum" but rather your reaction is scummy as fuck to me. And, that's good enough for me. Along with your blatant avoiding to answer my question on why Vij couldn't do it as town.

I'm sorry, where did you ask any question in here about how he might have done it as town?

[Inferno390]

2:

ohh forgot to mention I will be V/LA from the 11th to the 16th. I will still be around just limited activity, though the 13th and the 14th I may be too busy to check in.

Good to know.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

This seems pretty scummy. OMGUS voting yourself on the first day? Seems like a ploy to get a few laughs and to blend in with the town to me. Please explain your thoughts further, but

FoS

You quoted exactly my reasoning for why it seems scummy. Because throwing a vote at yourself looks like an attempt to blend in with town, because no one's going to take your vote seriously.

[Inferno390]

Tywin, why are you reading Raya as town?

Inferno: there is a difference, albeit a narrow one, between scummy behavior and anti-town behavior. Is it fair to say that when you said Vij's self-vote was scummy, you actually meant it was anti-town?

Vij: I'm curious about your take on Inferno v Tywin, given the entire thing is based on your guilt or lack thereof.

Acid: Why did you debate over who to vote for in RVS?

You know what, that WOULD be better word choice. Vij's behavior was

anti-town

, which is way clearer than how I put it.

Made it bold and huge.

Going to take this one step at a time. 1:

^
trying way too hard.

How the fuck is self-voting in RVS is scummy? And earlier you said that it seemed pretty scummy, and now it is just "potentially" pretty scummy?

And it also seems like you ignored Raya's statement that self-voting in RVS is actually NAI...in which she is correct.

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

It's literally RVS, chill out bro. The whole point of RVS is to get the game rolling and that's why it works everytime. I seriously do not like how you are so triggered over a self vote.

Also Raya said this and you have not responded to this:

I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before. I don't think I have enough experience playing with Vij to use meta in any way.

Like I have said, it's NAI. While your reaction to the self-vote does tell me more about your alignment and I think you are scum. There's a difference here so don't try to equate your paint of Vij being scum to me saying that you are scum.

What do you mean by NAI? And how is my reaction to the self-vote scummy? I've said that there is definitely more evidence needed, and I have not come out and said that Vij is scum, I've just said that his actions right now do not help the town, and that seems scummy to me.
And whenever someone confronts you about why you're attacking ME, your response is that I'm just scum. That's Argument of Repetition, which is logical fallacy. You've offered no reason for me being scum other than "I don't like your response, so therefore, you're obviously scum." So don't accuse me of painting Vij when all your doing is saying basically the same thing over and over. I've been bringing logic to my thoughts.

NAI = Non-alignment indicative. When you say something is scummy, it is fair for people to assume that you are scumreading that slot. Now you are saying that "there is definitely more evidence need" while literally saying "I have not come out and said that Vij is scum". I thought Vij was scum? You need to own your reads, but that not something that scum does, which is why I think you are scum.

Also quit saying that you have logic for Vij being scum because Raya literally debunked that by saying that it's actually NAI. Also, you STILL have not responded to my Raya quote still. I agree with her and I want you to answer why you won't even consider that Vij could also do it as town. Self-voting =/= scum.

Also again, I am not just saying " You are just scum" but rather your reaction is scummy as fuck to me. And, that's good enough for me. Along with your blatant avoiding to answer my question on why Vij couldn't do it as town.

I'm sorry, where did you ask any question in here about how he might have done it as town?

Questions? I don't see questions. I just see accusations.

2:

ohh forgot to mention I will be V/LA from the 11th to the 16th. I will still be around just limited activity, though the 13th and the 14th I may be too busy to check in.

Good to know.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

This seems pretty scummy. OMGUS voting yourself on the first day? Seems like a ploy to get a few laughs and to blend in with the town to me. Please explain your thoughts further, but

FoS

You quoted exactly my reasoning for why it seems scummy. Because throwing a vote at yourself looks like an attempt to blend in with town, because no one's going to take your vote seriously.

No one is gonna take it seriously? That's strange because you took it pretty fucking seriously.

Not that seriously, because I only threw an FoS. It would have been a lot different had I thrown my vote.

Moving on,
2. (continued) I didn't make that big of a deal. I just said that it looked pretty scummy (starting to quickly realize how off my terminology is off here, anti-town is the correct word) and asked him to further explain. YOU'RE the one who made it into a big deal. By attacking me and saying that my response immediately pegged me as scum.

3. Yeah, I made a conclusion. I concluded that Vij's behavior was ANTI-TOWN. NOT that he was scum, which is what you've been accusing me of this entire time. I dare you to find one point where I actually came out and called him scum.

4. I am relaxed. I'm laying out all my arguments and organizing all my points, if you haven't noticed. You're the on whose been throwing around wild accusations:

VOTE: Inferno390

VOTE: Inferno390

What's with the sudden vote change there?

Because you're scum.

You wouldn't even give a response until I directly confronted you for one. This doesn't look like you had ANY point to argue. It looks like you jumped all over my case and THEN tried to build an argument around it. But see, that doesn't work, because the longer this goes on, the more you get trapped in what you've already said.

5. If you disagreed with what I said, you should have debated it, not immediately voted for me. Besides, I voted for you because you've been attacking me and making pretty bad arguments yourself about how I'm scum, but apparently it was still an OMGUS vote. (It would be good to point out that your vote, as quoted above, has been the only OMGUS vote made.) And what bad reaction? All I've done is defend my position!

6. So apparently a vote means nothing but an FoS means

everything?

That's even more convulted logic than LYING about your scumread.

IN response to your own points:

No, I still think that Vij is suspicious because that's not the strongest argument as to why he did it. Like I've said, I've have never intentionally accused anyone of being scummy (except you).

YOU were the one who started this with YOUR OMGUS vote. Not me. So let's get that clear.

Well, my reaction was to ask you why you voted for me, and then defended my position- like anyone else would do.

The reaction test was not dumb (that's part of scum-hunting.) But the idea that you just made up the ENTIRE reaction test just to get a response out of me IS. And that is an excellent use of a policy LyAL, because all you've actually done is lie about your reaction test to make me look bad. So yeah, that's not staying on top of me; that's trying to pin me down as a scum with no real claim. (And you wondered why I voted for you.)

[Inferno390]

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

Why are you trying so hard to paint my actions as scummy? Why are you taking my thinking and immeadiately saying that it's scum?
We can play the painting game all day.

This post here does seem a bit overdefensive though.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

I concur VOTE: Vijarda

Any thoughts on what has been happening so far?

2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.

Just to clear this up what I'm saying is that self-voting in rvs alone is NAI but with more evidence and insight on motivation etc, etc, you could potentially have a point.

A: He was being very aggressive nd throwing around accusations. So I was very defensive. That happens.
B: Okay.

[Inferno390]

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

Why are you trying so hard to paint my actions as scummy? Why are you taking my thinking and immeadiately saying that it's scum?
We can play the painting game all day.

This post here does seem a bit overdefensive though.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

I concur VOTE: Vijarda

Any thoughts on what has been happening so far?

2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.

Just to clear this up what I'm saying is that self-voting in rvs alone is NAI but with more evidence and insight on motivation etc, etc, you could potentially have a point.

A: He was being very aggressive nd throwing around accusations. So I was very defensive. That happens.
B: Okay.

Alright. I need to look more into this tomorrow night. Is okay all you have to say to that though?

Also I don't think you've responded to this yet.

Inferno, can you explain in a little more detail why you think Vij's self vote is scummy? So far from my understanding it's because he could be trying to blend in but what makes his post stand out from any of the other rvs votes?

Okay is not all I really have to say, I just needed a little time to gather my thoughts on the subject. I agree that it doesn't have any convicting evidence on Vij alone. That makes perfect sense. (That's why I gave the FoS and have been saying that more response is needed from Vij before I move any farther.) HOWEVER, this is not what TywinL has been saying. She has been saying that no matter what happens, that post is NAI and so me thinking that it's anti-town (not scummy, a terminology error that's going to haunt me all game) immediately marks me at scum, which is a ridiculous proposition even late in the game.

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting. That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

anyway, that's my thinking on this situation. I don't mind if you don't agree with my logic, it's just the way I look at the game.

[Inferno390]

So first, I would like to make a statement regarding Vij. After doing a little research, this is what I found:
Fong's Gambit
"This gambit consists of a player voting for themself, with the intention of coaxing whoever the Mafia is into voting for them. The original player will then hope to lead a vote against the now suspicious player who voted for them."

So Vij's move was not as anti-town as I first thought. However, it also didn't work directly. I only gave FoS, which is less than a vote, but more than nothing, so TYwinL tried to use that against me.
Except TYwinL's used so many fallacies it's not even funny. Here's a list of a few:

ORLYScum:

"1) If X is scum, then his arguments are scummy.
2) X is scum.
3) Therefore, X's arguments are scummy."

Argument from Repetition

"A simple but sometimes effective technique which simply requires a player or faction to repeat its (essentially false) argument so many times, usually in virtually identical words, that the group begins to see it as an assumption and acts on it."

Attack the Person

"Argumentum ad Hominem (or "Attack against the Man") is a attack on the person, rather than on their arguments. It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. This often happens in mafia games. Instead of attacking an accuser's arguments, someone will attack the accuser instead."

Confirmation Bias

"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them... It is not always a false assumption, but it can be blinding to new or better options that come along, because they do not match the player's "pet theory"."

Red Herring

"A red herring is a distraction technique, either to avoid having to come up with a reasonable defense to suspicions directed at the player, or to create a fog of confusion around precisely why some other player is suspicious."

Straw Man

"A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.
Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong. "

Bodyguard Defense (also known as Chainsaw Defense, Tarhalindur Version)

"The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". "

Anyone want me to start quoting posts or laying out the reasoning, just ask. I'm just trying to avoid more crazy wall posts (which are another good way to hide these fallacies btw)

[Inferno390]

Inferno: If you believe that public knowledge of mafia theory renders said theory invalid...why rely on it so heavily?

Tywin, can you clarify what you hoped to gain/what you hoped town would gain from your 'reaction test'? You seem to still be scum-reading Inferno, whereas I am getting super earnest town vibes, so clearly some wires got crossed somewhere, yeah?

None of that is actually "Mafia theory": they're all common gambits and logical fallacies that can often be used as scum tell.
Now, I'm going to respond to Tyiwnl, I just need a second to gather my thoughts.

[Inferno390]

It's coming boy. You know it.

[Inferno390]

Instead of trying to reply to Inferno, I feel that it will be more useful to sum up my thoughts about him because honestly, it's just starting to clog up the whole thread now.

>RVS
>Vij self-votes
>Inferno says that it's pretty scummy
>Raya makes a point that town could also do it too
>I decide to do a reaction test to learn more about this slot. Did you really think I had a solid 100% scumread on Inferno on page 2? Come on now.
>1v1 begins
>We have a debate about scummy vs. being scum
>Inferno makes it clear that he think it is pretty scummy, but he points out that he did not say he was scum
>Inferno tries to shoot back at me for playing the chainsaw defense on him.
>Inferno then pairs me up with Vij if Vij is scum then I am a potential scumbuddy.
>Inferno then complains that I am attacking him for no reason and that there are other people do have done things similar to Inferno. In this case, Inferno is trying to equate his action with other people playing RVS. I actually did not like this since it seems like a pivot or redirect to me.
>Finally, Inferno votes me.
>Inferno also responds to Vij's post saying that the FoS remains.
>I reveal that I was actually doing a reaction test because I had seen enough at that point.
>Inferno laughs and calls for a policy lynch.
> More back and forth and more wall posts
>Inferno learns that the correct term is actually "anti-town" which I admit I also did not know. Then he states that he concludes that what Vij did is anti-town and not scum.
>Inferno continue to state that I am throwing "wild" accusations but I had already said that it was part of the reaction test and that he's quoting me out of context.
>Inferno then states that I am lying about the reaction test and that I should be policy lynched.
>Some time goes by because I was asleep and Inferno wasn't around either
>I come back and state that I will post more later.
>Inferno comes back and tries to clear up his reasoning but he actually contradicts himself.
>Inferno then posts a bunch of theories and talk about how I violated every one of them which is funny because I didn't even do some of those things AND some of the things he did himself too.

I will expand more on the last two lines since I have not responded to those yet.

Let's add some more details.
>RVS
>Vij self-votes
>Inferno says that it's pretty scummy,

asks for Vij to please explain further, and gives an Fos

>Raya makes a point that town could also do it too
>I decide to do a reaction test to learn more about this slot.

(AKA, calling Inferno scum and seeing what happens)

Did you really think I had a solid 100% scumread on Inferno on page 2? Come on now.

>Inferno asks for an explanation.

>1v1 begins

Without anyone actually ever explaining why Inferno is scum.

>We have a debate about scummy vs. being scum
>Inferno makes it clear that he think it is pretty scummy, but

that more evidence is needed to call anyone scum, and

he points out that he did not say he was scum
>Inferno tries to shoot back at me for playing the chainsaw defense

AKA, the Bodyguard Defense

on him.

(Before we go any further, let's make absolutely clear that the Bodyguard Defense is you defending someone to attack someone else. And that IS all you've done. Defended Vij's post s you can attack me.

>Inferno then pairs me up with Vij if Vij is scum then I am a potential scumbuddy.

In retrospect, Vij actually doesn't look that scummy (and still doesn't look that scummy) until you start defending his post.

>Inferno then

states

that I am attacking him for no reason

, which looks scummy,

and that there are other people do have done

other

things

that can also be called scummy. (Note here that the term I should have used was anti-town)

. In this case, Inferno is trying to equate his action with other people playing RVS.

(No, I'm not, I'm saying that lot's of things have happened in this game that look way worse than one g

uy throwing an FoS.)

I actually did not like this since it seems like a pivot or redirect to me.

(Yeah, it is, I'm turning your REALLY bad arguments on your head.)

>Finally, Inferno votes me.

Because I think that your doggedness with no real base reason is scummy.

>Inferno also responds to Vij's post saying that the FoS remains.

Whcihc I've explained as being because its still anti-town, and I don't like that.

>I reveal that I was actually doing a reaction test because I had seen enough at that point.
>Inferno laughs

because the idea that someone would LIE about a scumread to just try to get info is stupid

and calls for a policy lynch

On the basis of LyAL, because you were lying about the whole idea that I was scum

.> More back and forth and more wall posts
>Inferno learns that the correct term is actually "anti-town" which I admit I also did not know. Then he states that he concludes that what Vij did is anti-town and not scum.
>Inferno continue to state that I am throwing "wild" accusations but I had already said that it was part of the reaction test and that he's quoting me out of context.

(Find one post where I've done that. I DARE you.)

>Inferno then states that I am lying about the reaction test and that I should be policy lynched.

(No, you said you were lying about the scum read. I'm just repeating what you said.)

>Some time goes by because I was asleep and Inferno wasn't around either
>I come back and state that I will post more later.
>Inferno comes back and tries to clear up his reasoning but he actually contradicts himself.

(What contradiction?)

>Inferno then posts a bunch of logical

fallacies and gambits

and talk about how I violated every one of them

(actually, I just defined them and accused you of using them)

which is funny because I didn't even do some of those things AND some of the things he did himself too.

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting.

That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

So I think I understood this correctly... Anti-town = scum in his mind. So Inferno actually thinks Vij is scum even though he was been adamant about his "I'm only saying it's pretty scummy" gimmick.

No, I think that what Vij did is anti-town, and so I need to keep a close eye on what he does from here on out to be on the safe side. Once again, I never said he was scum, which anyone who had taken the time to read my response would know. Don't put words in my mouth.

ORLYScum: Again, when I simply stated "Because you're scum" it was part of the reaction test but you are trying to make it look like I actually believed in what I said.

Argument from Repetition: Again, you did this too because we were just shooting back and forth. You kept repeating that you thought Vij's actions were pretty scummy and I kept trying to tell you that it is not and that it is NAI. Other people have said this. Who is really spreading the false argument here?


Attack the Person: When did I attack you personally? I only attacked your logic. I never insulted you as a person.

Confirmation Bias: Everyone does this.

Red Herring: I have been clear why I think you are scum.

Straw Man: Partly due to the reaction test but Inferno also did this himself in post 70:

6. Yeah, I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia vote because it is RVS (although we are out of the RVS stage right now) and it means nothing. I am attacking your bad FoS. If someone actually made a decent case on someone, I wouldn't attack them, I would atleast ponder over it because that is called scumhunting. So tell me again how I am defending Vij by attacking just one person?

then...

6. So apparently a vote means nothing but an FoS means everything? That's even more convulted logic than LYING about your scumread.

Bodyguard Defense: False.

ORLYScum:
What you have done:
1) If inferno390 is scum, then his argument on Vij is scummy.
2)

Because you're scum.

3)Therefore, you're argument on Vij is scummy.

LITERALLY ORLYscum!

Argument from Repetition:
I am defending myself against you're argument of repetition. And I've done it by point out errors in your logic, fallacies that you've used, and straight out pointed out you're lies. All YOU'VE done is say I'm scum because of what I've said about Vij. So YOU. YOU are the one spreading the false argument.

Attack the Person:

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

BOOM!

Confirmation Bias: No, only people who believe they're right all the time do this. That's blowing me off.

Red Herring: I'm not going to even get into this because that'll lead to more walling. But not really. I've had a hard time finding the one sentence in each post that actually states it. (And it doesn't even exist in these last posts, which makes them DEFINITELY Red Herrings.)

Straw Man: You're still using it. (See the quote I refuted above.) And the quotes you have to make me Straw Manning too?

6. Why the heck are you defending him? Vij on his part has voted for himself and then lurked this entire time, refusing to defend himself, and all you've done is defend him to attack me. Classic Chainsaw defense. So, if it turns out that Vij is scum, you make for a pretty swell looking scumbuddy.
I am not defending him. I am questioning your logic and I do not like your reasons. Also lmao, glad that I'm the scumbuddy now. Notice how I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia voting Vij?

That's just refuting YOUR Straw Man on my Bodyguard Defense accusation. And you complain about ME taking things out of context.

Bodyguard Defense: Hahahahahahah no. You don't get to just dismiss this after all you've done is say, "You're read on Vij is wrong, so therefore, you're scum."

[Inferno390]

For the record, I don't really have any solid reads except for Inferno for scum and Raya with a town lean. Other people need to post more.

Well maybe you should try scumhunting someone except me for a bit.
I'd add one of my response images, except I don't know how.

[Inferno390]

quote="In post 110, TywinL"]

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting.

That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

So I think I understood this correctly... Anti-town = scum in his mind. So Inferno actually thinks Vij is scum even though he was been adamant about his "I'm only saying it's pretty scummy" gimmick.

How was I wrong about the conclusion I reached here?[/quote]

I told you. Read the post.

I don't even see how I quoted you out of context lmao.

Well, it does like I'm using the Straw Man defense until you add that quote to it, and then it looks like YOU'RE using the Straw Man defense.

Because you're scum.

Also stop taking this so seriously. What part of reaction test don't you understand?

I understand that a reaction the reaction test stopped being a reaction test when I responded with, "elaborate."

And no, that was not a personal attack.

NOT a personal attack. An Attack on the Person. There's a difference. Look it up.

I AM NOT scumreading you because you are wrong about Vij. I AM scumreading you because despite many people have said that self-voting in RVS is NAI and you refused to consider that and continue to double down on it. In my mind, you are scum trying to get a "scumread".

I have also considered the other side of the argument, the people who say you are just newb-town, but I am having a hard time giving you the benefit of the doubt.

That's just rearranging the words. I'm not wrong about Vij, but I AM trying too hard to scumread Vij despite people telling me I'm wrong, so therefore, I'm sum. (Notice the contradiction there: I'm not wrong about Vij, but I am trying too hard to scumread him because I'm wrong.)

inferno i think we'd really appreciate it if you stopped continuing with this stuff.

also please don't google logical fallacies and then use the first results to try and force a scumread on someone. guess what? you're probably using them wrong. and town make logical fallacies too.

A, I'd love to, but SOMEONE is blatantly calling me scum. I have a right to defend myself on that point.
B, I did not just google them and then try to force a scumread. I was reading the wiki and come across them. And they applied to what TYwinL was doing. And I think that I probably am NOT using them wrong, considering how I defined them and then have been explaining where they happened when someone asked. (Of course, no one's really done that yet, but I've said I'll start quoting and explaining in that post as well.) In addition, it makes sense for town to use a fallacy on occasion, but NOT for town to use so many in a single argument.

(the above is my take on LyAL. Take it as black and white law and I will give you an e-wedgie.)

That's an interesting way to look at it. My thinking is that town shouldn't lie, because town (being town) has nothing to lie about. Sure, ton doesn't want to claim power roles often, but that's not lying, it's retaining knowledge. So if someone is lying about things like scumreads , that seems pretty scummy (not anti-town, SCUMMY) to me.

But is that taking things too far?

[Inferno390]

That's an interesting way to look at it. My thinking is that town shouldn't lie, because town (being town) has nothing to lie about. Sure, ton doesn't want to claim power roles often, but that's not lying, it's retaining knowledge. So if someone is lying about things like scumreads , that seems pretty scummy (not anti-town, SCUMMY) to me.

But is that taking things too far?

You're taking things too far. A piece of meta advice: when you go into an argument with the level of black and white thinking you've displayed so far, you alienate people. This is damaging because it means other players will not want to follow you on your reads. Whether you are scum or town, this makes your chances of helping your team...pretty damn slim.


To shift back to the actual game:

What do you think of Raya?

Good to know. Thanks.

I think Raya needs to post more is what I think.
Actually, I'm getting at least a slightly town read from Raya. She's been doing a pretty good job of grilling me for more information while this wall-war has been going on. And I do think that while she has done some agreeing with everyone on some matters, I also think that she has been doing it to agree with other's statements, not just to blend in.

I do want to make a note that there have been several posts that say that I think that Vij is scum because of my post:

I think what might be happening here is you got a read on someone you think might be scum and you are clinging onto that read and refusing to look at the possibilities pointing towards that player actually being town.

I want to make very clear that Inever thought that Vij was scum. I thought that what he did was anti-town. (I have been using the word scummy and I do apologize for that terminology issue. That's where half of this stems from.) In fact, I've even said that there is even a Gambit (Fong's Gambit) that is exactly what Vij said. All I've said is that that sort of play looks anti-town, and that I'm going to be watching him from here on out. (Which, as time goes on, there hasn't been additional evidence pointing to him being scum, so I'm continuing to drift in the direction of a town lean.)
The person I do think is scum is

TywinL

, and I'd be more than happy to talk that over as well.

Now about you? Any thought on those points?

[Inferno390]

inferno i think we'd really appreciate it if you stopped continuing with this stuff.

A, I'd love to, but SOMEONE is blatantly calling me scum. I have a right to defend myself on that point.

I understand that you feel the need to defend yourself but there's a point when you defending yourself and arguing is just getting town no where. I think we made it to that point long ago and at this point it is becoming almost anti-town since the game is basically stalled on one thing and that's nearly all the content we have gotten at this point. It's pro-town to encourage discussion from others and to try to get a variety of opinions and reads. Arguing back in forth with one or two people is not pro-town right now.

Basically I'm asking the same as Vij. Can we please move on from this for awhile. If something comes up later and it becomes worth looking back at this I'm more than happy to but for right now I think we should just move our focus to someone else.

Cool with that. So let's talk acid. Any thoughts on here? Personally, I'm leaning town, but I ought to go back and read her posts again.

[Inferno390]

6 days left. Alright guys, let's get cracking!

[Inferno390]

How are you getting a town read from one post, when (per your plural phrasing) you didn't even know how many posts she had?

Whoops. Well, I was basing my read a little bit off of some meta-ing (which I can't really discuss here because that would be talking about ongoing games.) But I'm kind of getting confused on how many posts acid has because of that same reason (which again, I can't discuss because no talking about ongoing games.) But that's where the plurality comes from: I thought that she had posted more in this game than she had. It's not exactly been easy to keep track with all of the walling lol.

But I feel like that post could read as scummy, it can also read as trying to move out of RVS. There were basically two wagons she could jump on at this point: Gorny, or Raya. I do think that it's odd that she hasn't responded to why she jumped on Gorny's wagon, but then again, she hasn't posted hardly at all around here.
So I feel that what she did was starting to scumhunt more than anything.

I COULD be wrong, but right now I'm leaning toward town until she posts again.

[Inferno390]

Please leave ongoing games entirely out of this game, per site rules.

Yes, ma'am.

[Inferno390]

What about her one post makes you think acid is trying to scumhunt? To me, she is not doing jackshit.

...But I feel like that post could read as scummy, it can also read as trying to move out of RVS. There were basically two wagons she could jump on at this point: Gorny, or Raya. I do think that it's odd that she hasn't responded to why she jumped on Gorny's wagon, but then again, she hasn't posted hardly at all around here.
So I feel that what she did was starting to scumhunt more than anything.

I COULD be wrong, but right now I'm leaning toward town until she posts again.

[Inferno390]

Dude, I can read, thank you very much. That still doesn't answer my question. How does jumping on an RVS wagon = scumhunting?

Because it puts a little pressure on the wagonee. Helps to see how they react. Just like you did to me,

RIGHT???

[Inferno390]

Dude, I can read, thank you very much. That still doesn't answer my question. How does jumping on an RVS wagon = scumhunting?

Because it puts a little pressure on the wagonee. Helps to see how they react. Just like you did to me,

RIGHT???

Nah, there's a difference. I voted for you and put an extreme amount of pressure on you. Acid just tossed something. You shouldn't even be getting a read from that lmao. But I do like the fact that you agree that I was scumhunting!

No, I don't agree. I was being sarcastic. I think you were using my FoS so try and pin me down and make me look scummy for a mislynch.
And I never said that I thought he was town, I just said I was leaning in that direction. You're right that there's not much to read from that, but there's not that much to read from an FoS, and you sure found plenty to do with that.
Acid hasn't said much that would make her look scum. (But then again, she hasn't said much at all... which is why I'm only leaning.) So I'm LEANING town.

[Inferno390]

Not much to say on Acid really. As I mentioned earlier I have some thoughts but I'm still waiting on that reply to this:

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

raya or gorny....

decisions, decisions

raya i rolled scum the last time clearly i didn't this time smh

VOTE: gorny

Can't always count on that

So, why choose a gorny vote over me?

Same:

An excellent question. Why did you decide to begin a wagon on Gormy with me, when there are plenty of other players that don't have a vote on them yet?

But I am leaning town. It could be a sum thing, but for some reason, I doubt it.

[Inferno390]

seems like there's been some stuff going on. I'm just going to finish my thoughts from last night and then read through all of this in a bit to see what I pull from it.

Dude, I can read, thank you very much. That still doesn't answer my question. How does jumping on an RVS wagon = scumhunting?

Because it puts a little pressure on the wagonee. Helps to see how they react. Just like you did to me,

RIGHT???

Nah, there's a difference. I voted for you and put an extreme amount of pressure on you. Acid just tossed something. You shouldn't even be getting a read from that lmao. But I do like the fact that you agree that I was scumhunting!

No, I don't agree. I was being sarcastic. I think you were using my FoS so try and pin me down and make me look scummy for a mislynch.
And I never said that I thought he was town, I just said I was leaning in that direction. You're right that there's not much to read from that, but there's not that much to read from an FoS, and you sure found plenty to do with that.
Acid hasn't said much that would make her look scum. (But then again, she hasn't said much at all... which is why I'm only leaning.) So I'm LEANING town.

So you like acid's post because it's putting pressure on people?

I like acid's post because she is trying to move away from RVS by starting a wagon to see what the response is. NOT because she was "putting pressure on someone." (Which, or course, is what I said here:)

...But I feel like that post could read as scummy, it can also read as trying to move out of RVS. There were basically two wagons she could jump on at this point: Gorny, or Raya. I do think that it's odd that she hasn't responded to why she jumped on Gorny's wagon, but then again, she hasn't posted hardly at all around here.
So I feel that what she did was starting to scumhunt more than anything.
I COULD be wrong, but right now I'm leaning toward town until she posts again.

HOWEVER, I also don't like her post because there were other things she could have done with the vote besides jump on a random wagon and then not ask any questions.

[Inferno390]

Inferno390

Gödel

acidphoenix

Raya36

Gorny

TywinL

Sunlit Diamond

Vijarada

Not_Mafia

Okay, so why am I at the top of your readlist? What makes me so town to you?

[Inferno390]

I said already

I think I missed it in my skim. Would you please quote the post so I can read it?

[Inferno390]

I said already

I just looked through all of your posts, and you NEVER explained why you thought I was so town. What's up with the blatant lie, dude?

Inferno390

Gödel

acidphoenix

Raya36

Gorny

TywinL

Sunlit Diamond

Vijarada

Not_Mafia

Here's mine:

Inferno390

Raya36l

Sunlit Diamond

Gorny

Gödel

Vijarada

acidphoenix

Not_Mafia

TywinL

SO why the heck am I on the top of your list, and you're at the bottom of your OWN list?

Inferno:

There are multiple tools on this board to do your own post research with. Please use them.

----

That said: VOTE: Vij

Ignoring the fuck out of the self-vote because if inferno goes off again I might actually start screaming, there's the fact that she's done remarkably little actual scumhunting and the reads she has given have been super "safe." I am not a fan and would like to lynch this today.

1. Already did: ^^^

2. Shouldn't have even said anything. (JK, I've stated my thought on that situation far too many times.)

[Inferno390]

I said already

I just looked through all of your posts, and you NEVER explained why you thought I was so town. What's up with the blatant lie, dude?

I did

Inferno390

Gödel

acidphoenix

Raya36

Gorny

TywinL

Sunlit Diamond

Vijarada

Not_Mafia

Here's mine:

Inferno390

Raya36l

Sunlit Diamond

Gorny

Gödel

Vijarada

acidphoenix

Not_Mafia

TywinL

SO why the heck am I on the top of your list, and you're at the bottom of your OWN list?

Because I'm scum, duh

No, you just said that I'm town. You never explained WHY you thought I was town.

I think that you're right. You ARE scum, along with TywinL.

[Inferno390]

So first, I read this:

You need to disabuse yourself of all preconceived notions to peer below the surface and grasp the truth of why I called you town

And then I do some thinking, and:

VOTE: Inferno390

Because you're scum.

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

I concur VOTE: Vijarda

6. Why the heck are you defending him? Vij on his part has voted for himself and then lurked this entire time, refusing to defend himself, and all you've done is defend him to attack me. Classic Chainsaw defense. So, if it turns out that Vij is scum, you make for a pretty swell looking scumbuddy.
I am not defending him. I am questioning your logic and I do not like your reasons. Also lmao, glad that I'm the scumbuddy now.

Notice how I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia voting Vij?

1. You'll tell me that you did it, but then not quote a post. And I can't find any post that asks that question.
2. No, that means that there's no way to conclude if he is actually scum or not. Not that what he did isn't scummy, which is all that I've been saying this entire time. Just because town players can do it too doesn't mean that it's not scummy. Town can lie about their role in a gambit attempt too, but that doesn't make THAT any less scummy.
3. I haven't jumped to a conclusion. I just said the post looked scummy. Hence the FoS instead of a vote change.
4. What you said in post #47 is not only hard to read, but can be summarized as "I don't like that you FoS'ed Vij, and I don't like the fact that you're agreeing that he can't be definitely defined as scum, so therefore, you're scum." So no, you have not given a reason for as to why I'm scum, you just don't like my arguments for why his post is scummy.
5. It does look scummy. But so does attacking me with no real reason, acidphoenix jumping on Gorny's wagon, or plenty of other things that have happened so far in this game or will happen in this game. And again, you just took me saying it looked scummy as an excuse to attack me, which looks a whole lot scummier than me using FoS to say I don't think that what Vij is doing is in town's best interests, so that looks scummy to me. You have no real reason to be attacking me.
6. So you're telling me that you don't care about Not_Mafia's vote, but you sure as heck are all over me for my FoS. That makes less sense than using the Chainsaw Defense! And all you've done is attack me by saying that there is no real evidence for Vij's post to look even remotely scummy. That's called defending. The definition of defense is literally "an argument in support or justification" (Merriam Webster, definition 3b). So yes, you have done nothing but defend his self-vote and then used that as a base to attack me.

In light of all of this, you now look even scummier than Vij! Good job! You've earned yourself a wagon!
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TywinL

1. post 38, 44, 47
2. Ok, I want to you think for a second here. Why would scum vote for themselves? It's hurt their team, so it's nonsensical for scum or town to vote themselves. Stop saying it's scummy. 3 other people have said that self-voting in RVS is no big deal but you are trying to make it a big deal when you first made this post:

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

This seems pretty scummy. OMGUS voting yourself on the first day? Seems like a ploy to get a few laughs and to blend in with the town to me. Please explain your thoughts further, but

FoS

3. That's still a conclusion. Saying something is scummy is coming to a conclusion.
4. I think your argument for why Vij is scummy because I have said many times, and other players as well, that it is actually NAI. You keep trying to double down and sticking with your "scummy" conclusion. I'm trying to tell you to relax and you just aren't.
5. I am attacking for a very good reason. I did not agree with your FoS and your reasons are so bad, despite the many times where I have told you that it is actually NAI yet you don't want to let up from your Fos EVEN when Vij said he just used that to get out of RVS. And it fucking worked because of your bad reaction to that.

6. Yeah, I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia vote because it is RVS (although we are out of the RVS stage right now) and it means nothing. I am attacking your bad FoS. If someone actually made a decent case on someone, I wouldn't attack them, I would atleast ponder over it because that is called scumhunting. So tell me again how I am defending Vij by attacking just one person?

Oh boy a vote, I'm scared. Let's dance.

Inferno390

Gödel

acidphoenix

Raya36

Gorny

TywinL

Sunlit Diamond

Vijarada

Not_Mafia

I believe he called you YelAzu. That might help.

(This does make things a little clearer:)

I've read page 1 and 2 and I'm already skipping wall posts ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

Also YelAzu is town, he has that super rambly newbie playstyle that simply isn't fakeable by someone that new

(But for future reference, just call me Mr.390.)

You need to disabuse yourself of all preconceived notions to peer below the surface and grasp the truth of why I called you town

Suddenly a light comes down from the heavens and illuminates Inferno390's mind

Maybe this is going out on a limb this early, but:

TywinL and Not_Mafia are scumpartners!

Here's why I think this:
1. TywinL jumps all over my case about my FoS and THEN begins to build a case around me.
2. We go off on our 1v1.
3. Not_Mafia makes his vote.
4. At some point, I make my first accusation of the Chainsaw Defense (or the Bodygaurd Defense, whichever one you want to call it.)
5.

TywinL uses NOt_Mafia's post as a reason to refute it.

6. 1v1 continues.
7. we get to the current point.
8. We hit Not_Mafia's readlist.
9.I ask Not_Mafia some questions.
10. HE gives me some pretty evasive answers.

So I think that Not_Mafia voted Vij to give TywinL some ammo to turn me off of him.
Maybe this is me just reading too deeply. But with this last post from Not_Mafia, I think that it might be our scum team.
Any thoughts? Am I just being stupid over here?

[Inferno390]

You need to disabuse yourself of all preconceived notions to peer below the surface and grasp the truth of why I called you town

This. THIS is evasive. I asked you a direct question and then you give some vague, philosophical answer. EVASIVE.

You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht...

What the heck does that mean.

[Inferno390]

You need to disabuse yourself of all preconceived notions to peer below the surface and grasp the truth of why I called you town

This. THIS is evasive. I asked you a direct question and then you give some vague, philosophical answer. EVASIVE.

It isn't, you asked me why I thought you were town, I told you I'd already said why and I had and have, nothing evasive

You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht...

What the heck does that mean.

Your hat strategically dipped below one eye, your scarf it was apricot...

1. Then why didn't you just answer the question again? It couldn't have been that hard.
2. What the heck are you quoting? This seems scummy too. No reason to say it, looks like spam.

[Inferno390]

You need to disabuse yourself of all preconceived notions to peer below the surface and grasp the truth of why I called you town

This. THIS is evasive. I asked you a direct question and then you give some vague, philosophical answer. EVASIVE.

It isn't, you asked me why I thought you were town, I told you I'd already said why and I had and have, nothing evasive

You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht...

What the heck does that mean.

Your hat strategically dipped below one eye, your scarf it was apricot...

1. Then why didn't you just answer the question again? It couldn't have been that hard.

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime

2. What the heck are you quoting? This seems scummy too. No reason to say it, looks like spam.

How can you say it has no reason if you don't understand it?

What the heck are you quoting?

You had one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself go by

Will you stop with the fricking philisophical nonsnese quoting and just answer some questions?

Jeez. What does it take to get a straight answer around here?

[Inferno390]

You have all the tools, you even have the map, now you just need the humility

I hope you understand that the longer you keep posting philosophical nonsense (not that I have anything against philosophy, but it does have it's own time and place), the more scummy you look.

And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner, they'd be your partner and...

Would you

please

stop quoting that fricking song?

[Inferno390]

You have all the tools, you even have the map, now you just need the humility

I hope you understand that the longer you keep posting philosophical nonsense (not that I have anything against philosophy, but it does have it's own time and place), the more scummy you look.

I can't help you anymore, I explained my townread on you, just iso me and it's there

And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner, they'd be your partner and...

Would you

please

stop quoting that fricking song?

Do you finally understand my point?

1. I know, I did that several posts ago. I still don't understand why you were being evasive when I asked directly to restate it at the beginning of all of this.
2. No, I do not. Stop being obnoxiously mysterious and spit it out.

I still hold by you and TywinL being scum.

[Inferno390]

1. I know, I did that several posts ago. I still don't understand why you were being evasive when I asked directly to restate it at the beginning of all of this

So why are we still talking about this if you found it? I wasn't being evasive, it was there in plain text for you to see and I told you to look at it. so secret, much evasion, wow

2. No, I do not. Stop being obnoxiously mysterious and spit it out.

Then you must make a pilgrimage back to the beginning and take a listening ear

1. Because when I asked you why because I hadn't seen it, you

were

evasive. Why was it so important to be evasive? Why couldn't you have just restated it again?
2. Or you could just explain what you're trying to say.

[Inferno390]

Why couldn't you have just restated it again?

I already said, Sunlit even said it too

Nonono, not the whole quoting thing. I get that. But why the whle vauge philosophical answer thing? Why not just come out and say it? It was never really necessary.

[Inferno390]

2. Or you could just explain what you're trying to say.

It takes two to share a message, one to give and one to take, I have given, you must ready yourself to take.

See, you're being evasive behind the whole philosophy thing again. I think that your whole song thing is an attempt to get me to be suspicious of someone else, instead of focusing in on your behavior. Because whenever I question you directly about the matter, you get all philosophical and stuff.

[Inferno390]

Why couldn't you have just restated it again?

I already said, Sunlit even said it too

Nonono, not the whole quoting thing. I get that. But why the whle vauge philosophical answer thing? Why not just come out and say it? It was never really necessary.

Because you reacted.

Another universal law for you: Just because someone is trolling you does not mean they are scum.

Thanks.

I know that. But this entire thing seems like an attempt to confuse me and to get me to direct my focus away from these two. Especially the song thing.

2. Or you could just explain what you're trying to say.

It takes two to share a message, one to give and one to take, I have given, you must ready yourself to take.

See, you're being evasive behind the whole philosophy thing again. I think that your whole song thing is an attempt to get me to be suspicious of someone else, instead of focusing in on your behavior. Because whenever I question you directly about the matter, you get all philosophical and stuff.

Why would song lyrics make you suspicious of someone else? You know the song, you must know make the leap, the leap of self-discovery

Uh, no I do not. Hence my confusion over it.

Very few thing in this world are really necessary

Yea, like philosophical nonsense. So cut it out.

[Inferno390]

Uh, no I do not. Hence my confusion over it.

You don't know the song?

No.

[Inferno390]

Also

Why would song lyrics make you suspicious of someone else?

you didn't answer my question zomgorz

I know that. But this entire thing seems like an attempt to confuse me and to get me to direct my focus away from these two. Especially the song thing.

[Inferno390]

Uh, no I do not. Hence my confusion over it.

You don't know the song?

No.

Then Bing it

Why is it so necessary for me to Bing it? What is so important about this song? And if it is so important, why couldn't you have said what you were trying to say without being so vague and drawing it out so much?

[Inferno390]

That makes no sense and takes me back to; You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht...

I know that. But this entire thing seems like

an attempt to confuse me and to get me to direct my focus away from these two.

Especially the song thing.

[Inferno390]

Yes I can read thank you, that bolding is meaningless

It answers your question:

Also

Why would song lyrics make you suspicious of someone else?

you didn't answer my question zomgorz

Also Bing? Who the fuck uses Bing?

Uh, no I do not. Hence my confusion over it.

You don't know the song?

No.

Then Bing it

[Inferno390]

Inferno why are you not making the effort to understand what people are saying and fully engage with the game? Seems pretty scummy to me

Uh, I am making an effort and trying to engage in the game. I just don't understand why it's nessecary to be so cryptic and so respond with vague philosophy every time someone directly asks you a question.

[Inferno390]

Lmao can we lynch Inferno please?

Why don't we start with explaining why I should be lynched? DO you think I'm scum? If you do, why? Do you just find me annoying? If so, why? Is my logic too good for you? Does my defense against you during our 1v1 make you uncomfortable? Are you nervous about the fact that I called you out for being scum with Not_Mafia? Do you not like the fact that I think you're mafia?

Let's hear why.

Inferno390
Raya36l
Sunlit Diamond
Gorny
Gödel
Vijarada
acidphoenix
Not_Mafia
TywinL

Wait what. When did Vij become scum?

Um, I am not calling him scum. That's just my order of read from most town to least town.

I think that you're right. You ARE scum, along with TywinL.

What makes you think Not_Mafia is scum at this point? Key word: AT THIS POINT

I think that Not_Mafia is avoiding any direct question I am sending his way and hiding behind philosophical quotes and song lyrics. That plus the convenient timing of his vote on Vij tips the scale for me.

[Inferno390]

Inferno why are you not making the effort to understand what people are saying and fully engage with the game? Seems pretty scummy to me

Uh, I am making an effort and trying to engage in the game. I just don't understand why it's nessecary to be so cryptic and so respond with vague philosophy every time someone directly asks you a question.

But you're not making an effort to understand my point with the song, just dismissing it as confusing whilst not trying to understand it, you can't have your cake and eat it too

Well, yeah, because you're being intentionally cryptic about your point on purpose. And I'm not dismissing it because it's confusing, I'm dismissing it because you're being intentionally aggravatingly cryptic for no reason. IF you have something important to say, you can say it straight, not make everyone have to hunt down you're meaning for your own pleasure.
Actually, I did end up looking up the song, it's You're So Vain by Carly Simon, and basically, you're just using it as an Attack on Person to me. So yeah.

I think that Not_Mafia is avoiding any direct question I am sending his way and hiding behind . That plus the convenient timing of his vote on Vij tips the scale for me.

Yeah but you said he was scum before all of the philosophical quotes and song lyrics.

Yeah, because he was joking around about being scum. (Once again, taking things out of context.)

Why don't we start with explaining why I should be lynched? DO you think I'm scum? If you do, why? Do you just find me annoying? If so, why? Is my logic too good for you? Does my defense against you during our 1v1 make you uncomfortable? Are you nervous about the fact that I called you out for being scum with Not_Mafia? Do you not like the fact that I think you're mafia?

I have already explained why I think you are scum. Did you really think I would suddenly call you town? Maybe that is what you were hoping, but sorry to break it to you buddy, it ain't gonna happen.

Okay, so you think I'm scum. But let's be PRECISE about why you think I'm scum because all I've ever seen on why I'm scum is either my FoS on an NAI self vote in RVS (which you've said was part of your fake "scumread" for your reaction test), or the fact that you didn't like my responses to your "reaction test" (which I think wasn't a reaction test at all, just an attempt to make me look scummy that failed). So let's be PRECISE on why you think I'm scum.

Inferno390
Raya36l
Sunlit Diamond
Gorny
Gödel
Vijarada
acidphoenix
Not_Mafia
TywinL

Also what happened to your lean town read on acid?

I'm not happy with where she is on my list, but Vij and Godel ended up taking priority over her. I feel like she is town, but she ended up lower on my list because of those two.

[Inferno390]

Lmao can we lynch Inferno please?

I'm not against removing disruptive players regardless of alignment, assuming there isn't a better lynch to be made that day. The irony of him jumping all over people for anti-town behavior when his own has been pointed out to him again and again and a-fucking-gain without changing in the slightest is killing me.

Why don't we start with explaining why I should be lynched? DO you think I'm scum?

Would you stop fixating so much on your importance if I did? What are you going to do when a third person starts questioning your logic, waxing poetic, or makes an illogical statement?

Um, I am not calling him scum. That's just my order of read from most town to least town.

This is why I don't color-code my lists.

I think that Not_Mafia is avoiding any direct question I am sending his way and hiding behind philosophical quotes and song lyrics. That plus the convenient timing of his vote on Vij tips the scale for me.

The point he was making with his quotations was valid and real, and it went right over your head. Can you stop for a second and think about what that might mean for your super logic?

IF you have something important to say, you can say it straight, not make everyone have to hunt down you're meaning for your own pleasure.

If everyone played this way, mafia wouldn't be a thing. Plus, the way he phrased it went quite well with the point he was making.

1. What anti-town behavior have I insisted on continuing? The only one I can think of is the 1v1 with TywinL, and I stopped with that when everyone asked.
2. I've not accused you, nor Ray, nor anyone else who ask questioned me or pointed out problems with my logic. In fact, I've been willing to have reasonable discussion with anyone who wants to. TywinL doesn't. He just wants to accuse me of being scum.
3. I think I'm going to follow your lead on that from now on.
4. I understand the point he was making, but there's no point to saying anything in a confusing of cryptic way. Why is that nessecary at all? It feels evasive to me, and looks like an attempt to throw me off balance and to pull my attention away from TywinL. Of course maybe I'm taking it a little far, but that's my view on the matter.

TywinL wrote:
In post 226, Inferno390 wrote:
I think that Not_Mafia is avoiding any direct question I am sending his way and hiding behind . That plus the convenient timing of his vote on Vij tips the scale for me.

Yeah but you said he was scum before all of the philosophical quotes and song lyrics.

Yeah, because he was joking around about being scum. (Once again, taking things out of context.)

You literally came in your next post with a giant wall about how Not_Mafia and I are scum. I didn't take it out of context. I literally quoted you word for word. I want to know why Not_Mafia was scum before he started trolling you.

Um, that's not what "taking things out of context" means. It means that you are taking one thing I say,

word-for-word

, and then posting it without any information surrounding the quote in an attempt to make what I said look scummy.

I didn't really think that he was scum when I first said it. (Just like you insist that you didn't really think I was scum when you first accused me of it either, REMEMBER?) The reason I posted my theory that you two were scum partners is because, thinking back over all of the posts there at the beginning, it seems like too good of a coincidence not to poke. And if you might recall, I put a "maybe I'm just crazy" statement at the end of that second post. So I'm not completely convinced of that idea.

I AM NOT scumreading you because you are wrong about Vij. I AM scumreading you because despite many people have said that self-voting in RVS is NAI and you refused to consider that and continue to double down on it. In my mind, you are scum trying to get a "scumread".

That ^^^^

AND.

The fact you are just going to scumread anyone who attacks or questions you at this point lmao.

Mhmm, and how many times have I said that I don't consider Vij scum at all, I just think that what he did was anti-town. So please explain how I'm a scum "trying to get a scumread" when I have come out specifically and said that I don't think he's scum.

I'm not happy with where she is on my list, but Vij and Godel ended up taking priority over her. I feel like she is town, but she ended up lower on my list because of those two.

Lol why Godel? Godel has only posted 3 times and it is nothing concrete and Godel is on V/LA...

So therefore, I have no read on him, which would make him a true null.
The problem with my readlist at this point is that whoever I put down there is going to get me questioned. Placing Vij there will get me accusations of considering him scum all over again. Acid will bring accusations on going back on my town read. Godel hasn't posted hardly at all, so that's going to bring me under fire. And the rest I'm reading as town (or for you and Not_Mafia, scum [and even I'm questioning that placement for NM]), so to place them there would bring me under fire for my reasoning when I don't have any. I'm not going to lie, I need to fix my readlist for that problem.

[Inferno390]

So why was Vij red?

I think that's because I thought you're colors were town on top to scum on bottom.
My readlist would probably look better like this:

Town:
Inferno390
Raya36
Sunlit Diamond
Gorny

Scum:
Not_Mafia
TywinL

Unsure:
Gödel
Vijarada
acidphoenix

But even that's not completely accurate. You're closer to being in between unsure and scum, and Gorny and Acid are closer to being between town and unsure.

[Inferno390]

You and inferno need to get your head out of your absolutist asses and realize that theories you just found by googling are not infallable.

Woah.
First off, I used Fong's Gambit to DEFEND your self vote. So don't jump all over me on that.
Second, stop using the word theory. They are not THEORIES, they are LOGICAL FALLACIES that are used for scumhunting and as scumtell.

[Inferno390]

What LOGICAL FALLACIES?

So first, I would like to make a statement regarding Vij. After doing a little research, this is what I found:
Fong's Gambit
"This gambit consists of a player voting for themself, with the intention of coaxing whoever the Mafia is into voting for them. The original player will then hope to lead a vote against the now suspicious player who voted for them."

So Vij's move was not as anti-town as I first thought. However, it also didn't work directly. I only gave FoS, which is less than a vote, but more than nothing, so TYwinL tried to use that against me.
Except TYwinL's used so many fallacies it's not even funny. Here's a list of a few:

ORLYScum:

"1) If X is scum, then his arguments are scummy.
2) X is scum.
3) Therefore, X's arguments are scummy."

Argument from Repetition

"A simple but sometimes effective technique which simply requires a player or faction to repeat its (essentially false) argument so many times, usually in virtually identical words, that the group begins to see it as an assumption and acts on it."

Attack the Person

"Argumentum ad Hominem (or "Attack against the Man") is a attack on the person, rather than on their arguments. It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. This often happens in mafia games. Instead of attacking an accuser's arguments, someone will attack the accuser instead."

Confirmation Bias

"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them... It is not always a false assumption, but it can be blinding to new or better options that come along, because they do not match the player's "pet theory"."

Red Herring

"A red herring is a distraction technique, either to avoid having to come up with a reasonable defense to suspicions directed at the player, or to create a fog of confusion around precisely why some other player is suspicious."

Straw Man

"A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.
Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong. "

Bodyguard Defense (also known as Chainsaw Defense, Tarhalindur Version)

"The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". "

Anyone want me to start quoting posts or laying out the reasoning, just ask. I'm just trying to avoid more crazy wall posts (which are another good way to hide these fallacies btw)

These logical fallacies. All of which you can look up in the wiki, and, quote unquote, "if you think someone's arguments seem fishy, they probably fall into one of these fallacies." (From the wiki).

[Inferno390]

VOTE: Inferno390

Because you're scum.

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

These last three are ORLYscum and the last is AtP.

Lmao, I was about to reveal that I was using Inferno as a reaction test and I was lying about my scum-read on Inferno but now I actually think Inferno is scum. That OMGUS from Inferno is just unreal, but I will most more in detail later. Also lol at Inferno keeping his FoS on Vij.

p-edit: lol

This is pretty Red Herring, because all it's done is managed to cover up for why he actually thinks I'm scum.

Instead of trying to reply to Inferno, I feel that it will be more useful to sum up my thoughts about him because honestly, it's just starting to clog up the whole thread now.

>RVS
>Vij self-votes
>Inferno says that it's pretty scummy
>Raya makes a point that town could also do it too
>I decide to do a reaction test to learn more about this slot. Did you really think I had a solid 100% scumread on Inferno on page 2? Come on now.
>1v1 begins
>We have a debate about scummy vs. being scum
>Inferno makes it clear that he think it is pretty scummy, but he points out that he did not say he was scum
>Inferno tries to shoot back at me for playing the chainsaw defense on him.
>Inferno then pairs me up with Vij if Vij is scum then I am a potential scumbuddy.
>Inferno then complains that I am attacking him for no reason and that there are other people do have done things similar to Inferno. In this case, Inferno is trying to equate his action with other people playing RVS. I actually did not like this since it seems like a pivot or redirect to me.
>Finally, Inferno votes me.
>Inferno also responds to Vij's post saying that the FoS remains.
>I reveal that I was actually doing a reaction test because I had seen enough at that point.
>Inferno laughs and calls for a policy lynch.
> More back and forth and more wall posts
>Inferno learns that the correct term is actually "anti-town" which I admit I also did not know. Then he states that he concludes that what Vij did is anti-town and not scum.
>Inferno continue to state that I am throwing "wild" accusations but I had already said that it was part of the reaction test and that he's quoting me out of context.
>Inferno then states that I am lying about the reaction test and that I should be policy lynched.
>Some time goes by because I was asleep and Inferno wasn't around either
>I come back and state that I will post more later.
>Inferno comes back and tries to clear up his reasoning but he actually contradicts himself.
>Inferno then posts a bunch of theories and talk about how I violated every one of them which is funny because I didn't even do some of those things AND some of the things he did himself too.

I will expand more on the last two lines since I have not responded to those yet.

This is the straw man.

And the Bodyguard Defense+AoR has been his entire argument on why I'm scum. "Inferno said that VIj's RVS vote was scummy, so therefore he's scum trying to pick a fight." (Even though I've said that I don't think that Vij is scum multiple times.)
And he wont let up on it despite plenty of other evidence to the contrary, with is Confirmation Bias.



Now, If this isn't accurate, I'd be more than happy to talk about WHY it's not accurate. This is how I see it though.

[Inferno390]

I'm still under the belief hat TywinL is scum, but at this point, I'm not going to get that lynch, so I guess, I'd better start thinking about a scumpartner for him.

Hmm.

I'm thinking Not_Mafia, Vij, or maybe Raya?

[Inferno390]

I still think Vij is scum, but I could compromise vote for Not_Mafia if there's a snowflake's chance in hell of actually stringing him up. See my prior post for reason.

I could get on board with Vij. He might be scum. Though everyone jumping on me for my FoS makes me wary of leaning too heavily on that idea. I could also very much agree on Not_Mafia.

Hmm. Could Vij and Not_Mafia be scumpartners, and TywinL actually be town?....

NAH. But I'm willing to work with you on either one, Sunlight.

[Inferno390]

@fferylt Thanks for the extension

and again sorry guys

It's cool. I just want to hear your scumread.

[Inferno390]

Spoiler: Quote

In post 32, TywinL wrote:
VOTE: Inferno390

In post 34, TywinL wrote:
Because you're scum.

In post 41, TywinL wrote:
He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.


These last three are ORLYscum and the last is AtP.

I already said numerous times that it is part of the reaction test and it is not meant to be taken seriously. Way to take it out of context. Attack on Person is just wrong. It was not an attack on you personally.

In post 58, TywinL wrote:
Lmao, I was about to reveal that I was using Inferno as a reaction test and I was lying about my scum-read on Inferno but now I actually think Inferno is scum. That OMGUS from Inferno is just unreal, but I will most more in detail later. Also lol at Inferno keeping his FoS on Vij.

p-edit: lol


This is pretty Red Herring, because all it's done is managed to cover up for why he actually thinks I'm scum.

No, the point of the reaction test was to provide information to get the ball rolling. I think you are just upset that you were the one being pressured.

Instead of trying to reply to Inferno, I feel that it will be more useful to sum up my thoughts about him because honestly, it's just starting to clog up the whole thread now.

>RVS
>Vij self-votes
>Inferno says that it's pretty scummy
>Raya makes a point that town could also do it too
>I decide to do a reaction test to learn more about this slot. Did you really think I had a solid 100% scumread on Inferno on page 2? Come on now.
>1v1 begins
>We have a debate about scummy vs. being scum
>Inferno makes it clear that he think it is pretty scummy, but he points out that he did not say he was scum
>Inferno tries to shoot back at me for playing the chainsaw defense on him.
>Inferno then pairs me up with Vij if Vij is scum then I am a potential scumbuddy.
>Inferno then complains that I am attacking him for no reason and that there are other people do have done things similar to Inferno. In this case, Inferno is trying to equate his action with other people playing RVS. I actually did not like this since it seems like a pivot or redirect to me.
>Finally, Inferno votes me.
>Inferno also responds to Vij's post saying that the FoS remains.
>I reveal that I was actually doing a reaction test because I had seen enough at that point.
>Inferno laughs and calls for a policy lynch.
> More back and forth and more wall posts
>Inferno learns that the correct term is actually "anti-town" which I admit I also did not know. Then he states that he concludes that what Vij did is anti-town and not scum.
>Inferno continue to state that I am throwing "wild" accusations but I had already said that it was part of the reaction test and that he's quoting me out of context.
>Inferno then states that I am lying about the reaction test and that I should be policy lynched.
>Some time goes by because I was asleep and Inferno wasn't around either
>I come back and state that I will post more later.
>Inferno comes back and tries to clear up his reasoning but he actually contradicts himself.
>Inferno then posts a bunch of theories and talk about how I violated every one of them which is funny because I didn't even do some of those things AND some of the things he did himself too.

I will expand more on the last two lines since I have not responded to those yet.

This is the straw man.

Um no. I listed what happened. I saw your later posts about adding more details but it doesn't change the whole course of the story.

And the Bodyguard Defense+AoR has been his entire argument on why I'm scum. "Inferno said that VIj's RVS vote was scummy, so therefore he's scum trying to pick a fight." (Even though I've said that I don't think that Vij is scum multiple times.)
And he wont let up on it despite plenty of other evidence to the contrary, with is Confirmation Bias.

Um. No. I have said repeatedly that I am scumreading you for not letting up off of Vij when I tried to explain to you that self-voting in RVS is not scummy. And I like how you accuse me of confirmation bias when you said this:

I still think Vij is scum, but I could compromise vote for Not_Mafia if there's a snowflake's chance in hell of actually stringing him up. See my prior post for reason.

I could get on board with Vij. He might be scum. Though everyone jumping on me for my FoS makes me wary of leaning too heavily on that idea. I could also very much agree on Not_Mafia.

Hmm. Could Vij and Not_Mafia be scumpartners, and TywinL actually be town?....

NAH. But I'm willing to work with you on either one, Sunlight.

Anyway, this is the last time I'm gonna talk about this whole RVS thing, Inferno isn't gonna change his mind and I probably won't unless he starts acting like town.

1. Just because it was part of your 'reaction test" doesn't make it any less of an ORLYscum or AtP. saying that I'm panting everything to make someone else look bad is an AtP, because AtP is, by definition, circumventing the argument to make unessecary attacks on the person, which is what that is.
2. I could care less about being pressured. That's part of scumhunting. But to be quite frank, you've accused me of being scum for one reason, called it a "reaction test," and then said you didn't like my response, so I was scum. So yes, all it has done is been confusing as to why you think I'm scum.
3. Um, yes. You did list what happened, but then left out specific details and other information (which I then had to go back in and add) to make me look scummy. That's called a Straw Man.
4. Except, uh, I HAVE let up on Vij (even came out and said I didn't think he was scum), and you refuse to back off.
5. Well, yeah, because there's been some throwing around of Vij actually being scum, and I haven't seen any defense as to why you

aren't

scum. That's not Confirmation Bias, that's me not seeing any evidence to the contrary on my theory.

On a final note, in my last wall YOU ignored most of my points, and I did stop going back and forth with you when everyone else asked.
But I'm going to leave off the walling here. I don't want any of my further reads to be muddled by this nonsense.

I'm still under the belief hat TywinL is scum, but at this point, I'm not going to get that lynch, so I guess, I'd better start thinking about a scumpartner for him.

Hmm.

I'm thinking Not_Mafia, Vij, or maybe Raya?

Why maybe Raya?

Just a gut feeling, I guess. I never got around to scumreading the others, mostly because of our 1v1.

[Inferno390]

Okay, then what is it?

[Inferno390]

A non-game related personal attack, if I called you a poopyhead buttcunt, that would be an ad hom. Saying you're taking silly NAI things too seriously and making them scummy, is not, it's game related.

Okay. And see, I understand that I took things too far with the RVS vote.

But I don't understand this:

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy.

There's no reason for anyone to say that I'm "painting" anything as scummy. Yes, I misread an NAI situation and took it too far. But that doesn't make me "painting" anything. That's where I was getting the AtP from: It feels more like an attack on my playstyle (which I'll admit needs some work, but still) instead of actually taking the time to counter my arguments.

[Inferno390]

second time you have said this please follow through, we don't have much time left, yes I know this sounds bad coming from me considering me being away for so long, but it needs to be said.

also i noticed i screwed up some pronouns really sorry, hope no one was to offended

No problem.
I will admit that I've tunneled on TywinL, but that's mostly because I feel like his arguments are mostly trying to paint my FoS in the worst light possible, and it feels like he's pushing far too hard to get me lynched without a lot of concrete, unrefuted reason why.
As for Raya, I was mostly just throwing around names for a potential scumpartner, and that's one of the names that stuck out for me. Not accusing her of scum or anything, just something I'm thinking about. I'm going to go back and ISO her, but after sitting back and watching others talk and think about what's happened game has probably shuffled around my readlist a bit.

[Inferno390]

Trust me, I want this 1v11 to end as much as the next guy.

[Inferno390]

I don't actually mind the wall posts. The initial ones. The repetitive harping on each other when it's clear that it's doing nothing for game state is what's driving me up the wall.

"Driving me up the wall."
But seriously, sorry about those. I intended to play Mafia without the wall posts with I first found this site. I guess it didn't happen like I planned...

[Inferno390]

I don't actually mind the wall posts. The initial ones. The repetitive harping on each other when it's clear that it's doing nothing for game state is what's driving me up the wall.

"Driving me up the wall."
But seriously, sorry about those. I intended to play Mafia without the wall posts with I first found this site. I guess it didn't happen like I planned...

This is not a newbie game, and I don't qualify as an IC, but I'm going to pretend for a second that it is and I do.

I think you may be missing the point, and while there's a chance that's purposeful (read: you're scum), I'm just going to assume it isn't for the sake of sanity.

It's not the wall posts that are the problem. I've been guilty of those and I will be again. Sometimes they're necessary! When I get confident on a good read I go point for point down a player's ISO and rip them apart. I have a decently consistent (if limited) record of being right when I get to that type of read and I'll fight anyone who tells me I can't do it. =P So no, I'll never tell someone "don't wall post."

It's also not the 1v1. Again speaking to personal experience: I've been in 1v1s onsite and offsite that was super useful for sorting later. However, in each game there came a point where I had to ask myself "What am I trying to accomplish, and is it worth stalling the game?" Ultimately I dropped the 1v1 and moved on.

So...in this case, you guys have been going in circles for the entirety of this game. You're accusing each other of doing the same things in different words. You have enough confbias between you to tunnel through the Swiss Alps, and your last few exchanges have been (as far as I can tell) simply regurgitation of prior arguments. Other players have openly expressed that the 1v1 is making them disengage from the game to one degree or another, and it's unlikely that either of you will convince the rest of us to lynch the other during this specific day phase.

It's time to ask yourselves: What is this 1v1 actually accomplishing? Is it worth stalling the game? Then take action accordingly.

If you aren't scum, you're doing a damn good job of doing scum's work for them.

If you are scum, hats off to you for a good show.

/soapbox

Okay. And trust me, I'm just as tired of this 1v1 as everybody else. I want to move on and read other players. And I have backed off. Maybe not as far as I should, but I have.
I'm done with the 1v1. I'll lay off.

[Inferno390]

second time you have said this please follow through, we don't have much time left, yes I know this sounds bad coming from me considering me being away for so long, but it needs to be said.

also i noticed i screwed up some pronouns really sorry, hope no one was to offended

Yeah, I know. Just been packing in the pre-cal since I want less for next week before the test so I have time to study. How about I promise I'll get a list up tonight and you can all hold me to it.

As for Raya, I was mostly just throwing around names for a potential scumpartner, and that's one of the names that stuck out for me. Not accusing her of scum or anything, just something I'm thinking about. I'm going to go back and ISO her, but after sitting back and watching others talk and think about what's happened game has probably shuffled around my readlist a bit.

This kind of sounds like you're backpedaling. Anyone else think this too or is it just me? I mean, you listed me as a possible scum partner but when someone pointed out an inconsistency in the read you started saying that you don't actually think I was scum and it was just a thought. It kind of sounded like you wanted to keep your options open on your reads for later on so you decided to throw me in the list but when someone noticed the inconsistency you starting backpedaling hard.
I'm actually starting to feel a bit worse about inferno now...

You have enough confbias between you to tunnel through the Swiss Alps

Now there's good scumread from Raya!
To be honest, I knew people were going to say that as soon as TywinL made the point. But to be completely honest, I'm uncertain if you're scum or town or what. I've been getting more of a null read from you as the game has gone on from that readlist.

If I was to go back and make my readlist again, off of what information I have now, I'd do this:


Town:
Inferno390
Sunlit Diamond
Gorny

Leaning Town:
Gödel

Unsure:
Gödel
Raya36
acidphoenix

Leaning scum:
Vijarada

Scum:
Not_Mafia
TywinL

So you've definitely fallen down the list a little bit. Godel or acid I guess could be scum too. Right now my hardest reads are NM, Ty, and Vij though.

[Inferno390]

We have 7 hours left before the lynch, guys. Let's make a decision here.

It's obvious I'm not going to get my Ty lynch today. So now I have to choose between my other two reads...

Well, on one hand, Vij's post in RVS is not that anti-town. On the other, I just ISOed him, and all his posts seem off. I can't quite put my finger on why, and it LOOKS like he's scumhunting, but it's something I'm going to think about. HE aslo has never explained why he thinks Raya is scum.

Not_Mafia was scumhunting until post 168. And then he stopped. And he never explained most of his thoughts either. Not really anything after 168 though.

Hmmm...

Ty, you're still looking scummy to me. But in light of the impending deadline:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Not_Mafia

Let's see what happens.

Now there's good scumread from Raya!

Not a fan of this either. Something about it doesn't come off natural like you were trying to come up with something to make it sound like you didn't care about the slight scumread as people somewhat expect of town. Plus the way you say it sounds like you didn't think any of my other reads were good which you have never mentioned before.

No, I do care. I had a kind of mental facepalm when I saw it (partially because I knew it was going to happen). But I think everyone's been waiting to hear your scumreading thoughts for a bit, and this is the first I've seen of a real scumread since post 260, which was 3 days ago.

[Inferno390]

Well you did say it sounded like backpedaling. Sounds like you were reading it as scummy to me.

[Inferno390]

And he never explained most of his thoughts either.

Still pushing this eh

Well you didn't! Not saying you didn't scumread, but you never did come out and say, "this is why I think X is town and Y is scum."

[Inferno390]

I have purple skin and 5 legs

Wat.

[Inferno390]

wait, NOW you vote for Ty?
I doubt it's going to happen at this point, but okay...
Anyone want to back that wagon up?

[Inferno390]

Oh. <insert facepalm here>

[Inferno390]

Still going to be waiting on raya's post before i decide who i will vote for. And raya no worries life comes first.

I highly doubt I will vote TywinL at this point, reasoning stated before.

gorny no idea what horsemans reins is but good luck

sorry acidpheonix, hope you feel better tomorrow. I just thought you had forgotten about the game again, the downside of catching up on a weeks worth of posts. Could you explain why you wouldn't lynch not_mafia or raya?

inferno why am I on your list twice under town leaning and unsure?(just something that is bothering me a tad bit cus I am a tad bit compulsive, may also be the sleep deprivation talking)

turns out this wasn't as long of a post as expected, gonna post a bit more detailed post tomorrow after i have rayas readlist

That's a copy-paste error. You're Unsure.

Well you did say it sounded like backpedaling. Sounds like you were reading it as scummy to me.

That's correct. Reread my post. This doesn't respond to it.

I know it's not responding, I did that in another post (325). I'm just pointing out that it does look like you're scumreading me at least a little bit. Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry I thought we were posting things that are blatantly untrue

Dude, I ISOed you. You never did that.

[Inferno390]

On one hand, If I defend my wordings in the last few posts, I'll look scummy. On the other hand, if I don't defend my self, that will also look scummy.
I'll defend myself.
I'm not trying to make anyone second guess. I'm aware that I look pretty bad right now, so I'm not too stressed. I actually have kind of expected a lynch against me.

[Inferno390]

I have nothing to say but lynch me if you must.

If Acid is going to leave her vote on Ty, I'd rather be on that wagon than NM, because an NM lynch doesn't look like it's happening, so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TywinL

[Inferno390]

UGH

On one hand, I think Ty is scum, and I'm on a 2-wagon for him.
On the other, if Sunlit goes for NM, I think there's a better chance with that then there is with Ty.

Who do I vote for?...

[Inferno390]

Wait, I can hammer here?

Hmm....

I want to hear everyone else's reasons for why I should or should not hammer before I make a decision. (I am leaning toward hammering.)
Let's hear em, and in the meantime:
UNVOTE:

[Inferno390]

Yeah, I saw that he claimed even night doc.

On another note, I don't like how Ty is attacking you, Sun. IT looks like he's trying every excuse to get you lynched. And then it looks like he's contradicting himself throughout. Or maybe I'm just reading that wrong; I'm going to go back and read it again.

Wait, what the heck? In post 434, NM claims even night, but 459, he claims odd night doc?

[Inferno390]

Or am I misreading that?

[Inferno390]

Okay, so will someone explain this?

[Inferno390]

Yeah, and it'll also get you lynched.

[Inferno390]

I claim [Intent to Hammer].

Oh and @MOD is this an open setup?

[Inferno390]

I mean

Intent to Hammer

[Inferno390]

I'm not lynching... yet. But you do claim even night doctor, per post 434?

[Inferno390]

And that was a CC of Gorny? Or am I missing something here?

[Inferno390]

whew ok 5 hours chaps

VOTE: Sunlit

no lynch=bad. Pretty sure this is an awful lynch. But let's just quicklynch him now, yeah? No lynches suck.

I agree, but we're l-2 on NM. Why Sunlit?

[Inferno390]

And that was a CC of Gorny? Or am I missing something here?

Yes

What post did Gorny claim even night doc on?

[Inferno390]

Post 278 was his claim, correct?
I'm keeping the steam on here.

VOTE: N_M

[Inferno390]

I say that Sunlit should.

And, I've always been okay with this lynch, Raya, but I've been taking into account the PR claim.. In fact, I was given the opportunity to hammer, but I didn't.
So why do you say I insisted on his lynch? (Post 490)

[Inferno390]

Your intents to hammer, 476, 481, 486

While you're quoting posts that stte my "intent to hammer," why not throw 472 in for good measure?

This looks scummy tbh. I actually state the intent to hammer, and you don't even mention that post, but you mention several posts where I'm keeping the pressure on and looking at all of the facts in an attempt to decide whether to actually hammer? Really?

[Inferno390]

NOOOOOOO

At least there's only one Mafioso left though.
Too bad we don't know what the setup is, if it was newbie we'd know there was a cop...

And that makes more sense Raya. But why act like it's a bad thing to keep the pressure on N_M on D1?

[Inferno390]

I'm going to go back and reread D1 and then ISO some people now that there's only 7 of us to see if I can work on my reads.
As for now, my readlist is, from town top to scum bottom:

Town: Inferno390

Towny: Sunlit Diamond

Leaning town: Gorny

Null: Godel

Leaning scum: Raya36/Vij

Pretty scummy: {None}

Most likely to get my vote: TywinL

Pease note that this is all subject to change within the next 48 hours as I read back over D1.

[Inferno390]

I was never a doc. I doc gambit ed early on in an attempt to draw the NK on purpose. I was hoping the real doc would have never claimed. Happy that one scum got lynched though.

This is a closed setup and we had no flips, not even soft claims before yours. Why would you assume there's a doc, let alone essentially suicide to protect it?

I don't think I've ever seen that approach.

This is an excellent point.

[Inferno390]

Pease note that this is all subject to change within the next 48 hours as I read back over D1.

Better do that because your reads are wrong.

Oh really? Was I wrong about N_M?

And no one take this as me getting a big head: I just would like to point out that not ALL of my reads have been wrong this game. So let's not assume that I'm just a nobody who knows nothing about how to read people.

[Inferno390]

@Gorny could you explain the logic behind the soft claim? I mean I get the whole NK bait for mafia, but why essentially commit suicide on the first day? To me it just seems to defeat the purpose of playing the game.

@inferno and TywinL - while I don't mind you guys engaging and talking with each other please try to avoid the walls of pains and rehashing all the arguments from day 1.

I will check in again tomorrow it is 10 past 11 now, and I am a bit sleepy.

I am going to avoid walling with Ty again this phase, so don't worry.

[Inferno390]

Better mention this now:

@MOD, I will be V/LA tomorrow due to a band concert. Thanks!

[Inferno390]

So I'm took a page from a friend by the name of Porkens, and wrote down my thoughts on a Word doc as I want along day 1. Here they are:

Spoiler: Thoughts

My first thought is that jumping all over Vij for his self-vote during RVS, in hindsight, was

stupid

. Just a dumb move on my part.
Raya and I have a decent conversation on why I did it after. My reasoning for the FoS is alright, I guess, but it was still pretty dumb considering what follows.
TywinL throw his vote at me, starting “his reaction test.” I don’t really understand this exchange here: He says it’s a reaction test, but the testing should have ended post #35.
There is grilling from several angles about my FoS, and the only ones that seem real are Raya and Sunlit. TywinL seems pretty fake.
I think Ty makes some good points on my FoS being bad, but then he hides it in accusations of being scum and pushing my reasoning to the extreme. He basically says that I’ve accused Vij of being scum, which is not what I did at all.
Now given, my terminology was off throughout this 1v1, but still.
I’m noticing a trend of Ty manipulating my words to fit his attacks on me. Especially noticeable in post #49, point 3.
Now that N_M has come out as scum, it does put a different light on my idea of him voting Vij to give Ty a strong case. Then again, it could also be a coincidence, or just Mafia trying to stir things up with the FoS already a problem.
Another thing is that the longer this goes on with Ty, the less anti-town Vij’s self-vote looks (which I’ve said before, but I’ll restate here). Ty makes a good point about it being NAI. But I also see a lot of manipulating my posts to make me look worse than I actually am.
The “reaction test” reveal comes on post #58. Given the timing, this seems like an attempt to 1) make my vote look bad, and 2) to throw off the 1v1, which was not looking great for Ty at that point. And then he uses that claim to defend all his posts before that.
Posts #65 and #66: This is where the 1v1 starts falling apart (for me at least). It also shows that Sunlit has been paying a bit of attention to the battle, and also shows a move to get to other reads.
Gorny makes a good point about wagons in post #68. Sunlit makes a good response post #73. They have a little 1v1, which has lasted on and off for a while.
I do feel like Raya is doing a good job defending herself I think, and there’s not much from Vij.
Sunlit’s investigation of the “reaction test” on post #92 seems good.
Post #93 still screams Straw Man to me.
The longer the Ty 1v1 goes on, the worse Ty’s arguments get. He eventually stops responding to my points altogether…
And pulls some bull, like in post #124.
I hate how Gorny pushes his 1v1 in #128 after it’s been dead for so long.
Raya seems to grill Acid pretty well. I like that.
Going to skip the entire 1v1 with N_M…
The more I reread Ty, the worse he sounds tbh.
I like #234, despite the obvious knocks at me. It seems legit.
Another thing I notice is that Ty will take my posts out of context, then get all offended when I point it out and act like he didn’t. But when you go back and look at my posts within the thread, it’s blatantly obvious that he’s taking them out of context to make me look bad. That’s some pretty hard Straw Manning.
Posts #244 to #248 seem pretty towny on Vij’s part.
Post #264 seems real. Until point E. Point E is pretty meh.
Reading post #270 makes me laugh. Ty accuses me of BS when all I’ve done is try to make valid points? Come on man, I’ve even agreed with you on the fact that Vij’s RVS wasn’t that bad. I think the only one that’s full of BS around here is you.
Gorny’s softclaim is kinda out of nowhere. I don’t like that, despite his arguments as to why he did it.
“Maybe Raya” in post #285 both gets me thinking and gives me hives. On one hand, Raya hasn’t done much. On the other, no one’s done that much beyond Ty and me. Either way, probably shouldn’t have said some meh gut reaction out loud.
Post #288 and the N_M train finally gets started! Woo woo!
Ty says he’s scumreading me for not letting up on Vij, which I did do. How many holes does his scumread have?
Ty seems to latch onto anything that I do. Now granted, I haven’t had a great game, but still, some of the things he’s said are scummy too.
Godel’s reads on post #308 seems good.
Starting #323, Raya looks like she’s scumreading me, but it also feels like she tries too hard to find reasons to do it.
N_M basically tells everyone I’m town in #348. Of course, since he’s scum, that could mean anything, but still…
I feel like Ty’s reads seem rather weak as D1 drags on.
A good read from Raya #371. Even though it has me at scum, it does explain everything pretty clearly.
#386: “validating wikivomit.” I’d like to point out that picking up tips from the wiki in an attempt to find scumtells is a perfectly legit way to play. No one would validate anything. If we lynched Ty and he came out scum, it would just mean that I was right that he was scum.
Post #400: The first real feeling read I’ve gotten from Ty all game!
And the Ty I know is back in #404.
Ty gets trashed in his 1v1 with Sunlit. Good for you, Sunlit!
Acid and N_M’s 1v1 what might have been the signal for scum that acid was the real doctor.
Post #478 (Vij) makes me nervous. It seems pretty scummy to me.
Post #494 looks like Sunlit trying to back off the lynch. Maybe he was bussing a scumpartner and realized he’d done it too hard…?
All the doctor claims pg 21 OMG!
First Raya wants me lynched, and out of nowhere calls for intent to hammer, and then complains about me holding up the lynch.
We lynch the scum PR day 1! YAY!

After this, my readlist is now:

Town: Inferno390

Towny: Godel

Leaning town: Gorny

Null: Raya

Leaning scum: Sunlit

Pretty scummy: Vij

Most likely to get my vote: TywinL

VOTE: TywinL

Now I'm off to my band concert, I'll check back in tomorrow!

[Inferno390]

Raya: The reason I read you as null is because while you have had a lot of posts and done some good reading, I also feel like you've tried to hard in some of your reads, so I'm having a hard time leaning either way with you. I will be ISOing some people and throwing some questions about D1, but as for now, there is nothing to respond to for you.
Ty: Ignoring you.
Sunlit: Yes, you 1v1ed from about #400 to #427. Ty tries to accuse you of whiteknighting me and playing against town wincon, and his entire argument falls completely apart against you. Ty tries to kick it back up in #563 with your Gorny vote and you've been avoiding it pretty well, which I appreciate.
Gorny: I liked your reasoning, until I thought about this: What if scum didn't NK you? What if they accidentally NKed the doc instead? Then you would have obviously been lying and so we would have policy lynched you. And when would Mafia lynch a softclaim on D1 like that? Your reads seem good though today.
Godel: How am I fishing? (Post #578)

[Inferno390]

Yeah, but if you live, it wastes a whole day of lynching and reading do deal with you!
I don't like the idea of that at all.

[Inferno390]

Because I feel like you're statement that we shouldn't lynch a PR without discussing it first is pretty weak. There had already been plenty of discussion surrounding it (in my opinion), and to jump off a wagon that late like that when I'm trying to get good info and we're trying to make a decision is a bad idea. We could have talked over the claim with the hammer still hanging over N_M's head and still gotten the same result. So I'm starting to think that maybe you moved off the wagon because you were one of the main instigators of the wagon, and you had been bussing N_M a little bit (not to get him lynched, mind you, just a pushing a little) and you accidentally ended up bussing too hard, which resulted in the lynch (That would be especially bad for you, knowing that your partner was the scum PR). So you tried to jump off the wagon in an attempt to draw others off of it and make it fall apart.

[Inferno390]

You were ignoring my points. I have not seen you make any points towards me this phase that I feel the need to respond to. You're just belittling all my reads.

[Inferno390]

Yeah, so instead you'll call my reads bull and act like I'm the worst player here? lol no.

[Inferno390]

Yeah, so I'm ignoring your belittling. I have better things to do that cat fight with you over my reads.

[Inferno390]

I have people to read, votes to place, mafia to lynch, my country's 500th anniversary to plan, a wedding to attend to, a wife to murder, and Gulder to frame for al of it!

But to be honest I'm not sure why you say my reads have been inconsistent. Aren't my reads subject to change after rereading D1? What part of them has been "random?"

[Inferno390]

I explained my reasoning on Sunlit is post #621.
As for Raya, I feel like she's trying too hard to find reasons for what I say to be scummy.

[Inferno390]

Raya: I was reading you as town. This is because you look like you're trying to scumread and doing a pretty good job of it. I like 18, 158, and 320 in this sense.
However, 323 and the 343 are what throw me off. I understand reading me as scummy because of my "backpedaling," but then you don't like my tone, and when I point out the reasoning for what I said, you act like I'm trying to make you second guess everything. I feel like you're

trying

to read me as scum. That's why you're null. Because I can see where you're coming from, but it seems a little forced at the same time.

Sunlit: I agree with why you voted initially. What I don't agree with is why you jumped off the wagon. You said you wanted to discuss the claim, per post 475. But that could have easily been done because I had clamed intent to hammer. If someone had gone and quickhammered, and N_M was a PR, then we would hae snagge him today because that's a

really

scummy move. And if we were short on time like you say, you should have kept the steam on rather than backed off, because we didn't have the time to wait for another person to jump on the wagon. Your revote makes sense too; it's just the unvote that has me a little concerned. It seems like you had the L-1 and then backed all the way off. Especially with your good reasons as to why N_M was scum, I don't understand why you would do that.

So my theory is that you were trying to bus N_M softly that way if one of you dies, it'd put the other a bit cleaner. But you bussed him too hard and got a wagon rolling, and you tried to step off to get it to fall apart since you and I were the ones that ended up pushing the hardest for N_M's lynch at the beginning. Not saying that you were responsible for it, but you and I were the most active pursuing that wagon. So maybe you thought that you stepping off would have broken the wagon up.

Of course, this doesn't implicate you as scum; I have plenty of other theories as to whom N_M's scumpartner could be (like Ty for instance. That Vij vote from N_M in RVS, especially after him flipping scum, is just too much of a coincidence to not dive into a little deeper). I'm sure I could look back through everyone's ISO and find reasons for point fingers at them as scumpartners with N_M. But this is one of the ones that really stands out to me.

[Inferno390]

I have people to read, votes to place, mafia to lynch, my country's 500th anniversary to plan, a wedding to attend to, a wife to murder, and Gulder to frame for al of it!

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.

Inconceivable!

Someone ought to do another Princess Bride Mafia...

[Inferno390]

Sunlit: I understand that. But from where I stand, your explanation makes no sense, and I literally explained why in the post you just quoted!
Raya: Oh, not 343, 346. my bad. On 323, I knew what I did was going to get some bad rep as soon as I wrote it, but it was my thoughts about the situation, so it was all I had to respond with. I completely understand reading it as "backpedaling." That's not my problem. My concern is that you start reading into everything that I say as an attempt to make you second guess that original scumread, and THAT's what seemed forced. I like 320. I don't like 323 or 346.

[Inferno390]

While this is still fresh in my head:

Who first gave the idea that N_M was CCing GOrny? Because if it wasn't N_M himself, could it be possible that he claimed doc without realizing that Gorny had done it first? It'd definitely put a different light on Gorny's points to why he's not scum.

[Inferno390]

Spoiler: me

Me (Never voted N_M)

Scenario 1: I'm scum and N_M is my partner. I soft claim DOC. I/we do not know if there is a real DOC present as this is a newbie friendly game. Seeing as it's newbie friendly, we consider the matrix6 setup and other newbie friendly setups. Any way we look at it, we cannot confirm or deny that there is a DOC. Me softing DOC could be viewed as an attempt to draw out the real DOC for either a lynch or an easy NK. However -

This scenario holds ONLY if N_M does not claim DOC also, N_M did

Scenario 2: I'm Scum. I soft DOC in an attempt to flush out the real DOC (again not knowing for sure if there is a DOC) and N_M Counter Claims.

This scenario fails because N_M flipped scum

Scenario 3: I'm Town. I soft a DOC in an attempt to bait the NK and keep the real DOC (if there is one< and by extension, any town PR) alive for the first night, giving them a chance to do what they do.

This scenario

might

have worked if Acid had not hard claimed. Scum would have not known he was the real DOC and would have possibly killed me because they may not have known anyone else was a PR (or seen anything worth taking as a crumb or tell.) This is what I was trying to have happen.

Scenario 4: I'm Vanilla Town claiming DOC, N_M claims Even Night DOC, Acid CC's. N_M Lynched.

This is the scenario that played out involving my DOC Gambit

While this is still fresh in my head:

Who first gave the idea that N_M was CCing GOrny? Because if it wasn't N_M himself, could it be possible that he claimed doc without realizing that Gorny had done it first? It'd definitely put a different light on Gorny's points to why he's not scum.

That would be me.

Okay, so here's my thoughts on this:
So Gorny's "scenario defense" holds up if (and only if)

N_M knows that Gorny claimed doc before he did.

It's completely possible that they could both be scumpartners that both ended up claiming doc simply because N_M missed Gorny's claim while he was skimming.
And before Gorny says that's dumb, here's a few reasons why I think that this is actually plausible:
1. Gorny's claim was buried, and I missed it while I was skimming. So why not N_M? He could have very well missed the post considering that it wasn't exactly the most clearly stated claim.
2. N_M was NOT the one that pointed out that he was CCing, Sunlit was. So did N_M even know he was actually CCing when he mad his doc claim?
3. The timing seems pretty off. Wouldn't you think that if N_M wanted to CC Gorny's claim, he would have done it soon after Gorny makes it? But N_M's claim comes quite a few pages after Gorny's. That doesn't seem like an intentional CC to me.

Now, I'm not saying that Gorny is actually scum, but I do think that this is a plausible scenario considering the actual doctor did die last night (meaning that either an unknown 3rd party happened to guess Acid correctly or Gorny knew that his doc claim was fake). So we can't rule Gorny completely out as a confirmed townie.

Considering that Ty is at L-1 and a quickynch would be bad at this point, UNVOTE: .

I'll be reworking my readist based on what has happened so far in day 2 shortly and give a new vote from there.

[Inferno390]

I feel like now would be a good time to claim:
I'm The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out of Its Ass. (And you thought this was a newbie-friendly game. )

[Inferno390]

Looking over the last few pages, here's what I noticed:

I'm calling vijarada's story BS because I think scum most certainly bussed.

Why are you so certain there's a bus on this wagon Gorny?

I think Gorny makes some good points in 649, and then Vij makes some okay responses in 650 & 651... and also makes some awful responses in 650, 654, and 655. And just because Fong's Gambit is 10 years old doesn't make it not a real thing! So stop saying that it's not, okay?

I do think that Ty is probably he wrong lynch today because of recent developments. But I still find him very scummy.

Reading Sunlit and Raya a little better after they're responses to why I leaned scum. I feel like their answers were pretty honest.
Gorny's claims for his doc gambit still seem a little fishy, especially after my last post on the matter (673)

Readlist time:

Town: Inferno390

Towny: Godel

Leaning town: Raya

Null: Sunlit

Leaning scum: Gorny

Pretty scummy: Vij

Most likely to get my vote: TywinL

But since I shouldn't put my vote back on Ty yet: VOTE: Vij

[Inferno390]

Exactly!

[Inferno390]

Is 680 pointed toward me or Vij?

Also, everyone except Gorny claim something that's obviously fake and I'll write up a claimlist.

[Inferno390]

Okay then.

[Inferno390]

Yeah, Vij is almost looking scummier than Ty now. (Lol)

[Inferno390]

I am a very frustrating person to play Mafia with.
1. Because your reaction test response on 58 seems kind of weak. To be honest, none of that seems like a "reaction test," it just seems like you trying to make my FoS look as scummy as possible.
2. Because, as I've pointed out a few times, there are several posts where you Straw Man my arguments (the most notable being that one long list summarizing the 1v1 and when you used N_M's vote to discredit my Chainsaw Defense argument). Don't remember the post numbers now, I'll have to go back and find them.
3. Mostly because you insisted that I had to be scum throughout D1 despite me pointing out the flaws in your arguments and everyone else telling you you're wrong.
4. Because once my arguments against why your reads were bad started to actually make sense, you either blew me off or stopped responding to my points.
5. Because the timing of N_M's vote to fuel your argument against my Chainsaw seems like too much of a coincidence, especially after he flipped scum.

On another note, what's your blatantly false claim?

[Inferno390]

Nice claim lol.

On the reaction test, I do agree it got the game going, however I also feel like the fact that it was a reaction test came from the fact that the 1v1 wasn't giving you a solid enough way to nail me down as scum. I felt like that if it really was a reaction test, it would have ended almost immediately after I asked you to elaborate why you said I was scum. That's probably just me ego reading it though at this point.
As for putting yourself in the spotlight, wouldn't that be a great way to be scum , by being active and looking like your actively scumhunting? By making another persons actions look scummy, you can convince the town to mislynch without implicating yourself too much in the process. As for 5, I know that I'm not the biggest threat to scum, but I did feel (in the beginning) like the timing of the vote was used to make me look scummy enough to start a wagon on me for a mislynch. Thinking about it now, that wouldn't nessecary implicate you as N_M's scumpartner at all; it would just mean that he gave you the tools to break down my arguments for him, so he could stay out of the way and not implicate himself. And it was an RVS vote anyways, so I shouldn't be reading that far into it.
I am glad we stopped the 1v1 and ignored each other tbh, because looking back on it, I think I was ego reading you quite a bit. I can definitely see where some of the responses came from (even though I don't agree with all of them). You've definitely made some good points and had some good scumreads (especially now that D2 has rolled around). There's quite honestly no reason for me to be reading you as scum at this point.

[Inferno390]

Seems quiet today. So let's stir the pot a bit:

I think that Gorny's claim that he was trying to draw the NK is BS. I think he's scum and was trying to draw a CC from someone so his partner N_M could get the kill. But N_M accidentally CCed him without realizing it, so now he's using N_M's claim to get enough towncred to make it to LyLo.

Thoughts?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gorny

[Inferno390]

You mean between Ty and Vij? Why?

[Inferno390]

Okay. So if you don't know if there's a doc, why then would you make that gambit with the risk of you getting CCed anyways and then get the real doc NKed by mafia?
See, this doesn't make any sense. You claim doc to stop a PR NK, but at the huge risk of losing 2 town, losing at least 1 day phase, and getting little-to-no info about the actual scum? That's, quite frankly, an AWFUL gambit for town. 2-for-1 with little to no info is the best thing for scum D1.
And see, based on the timing of N_M's claim, I don't ever think there was a plan. It seems like N_M never even knew that you claimed doc, because Sunlit had to tell him that you had claimed. Plus, there was never a real reason to claim when you did D1: There wasn't really a wagon on you, and for the most part people were reading you as town. So why did you claim then?
The only reasons are 1)to draw the NK like you suggested (which I've already shown is stupid), or 2) to draw a CC so that N_M could roleblock the CC and then YOU could kill someone else.
But that's not what happened. N_M looked like he was getting lynched, so he tried to claim doc, not realizing you had already claimed it. So now you're using that as an excuse to say that you're not scum.

Plus, if there was no doc, if the scum claimed and there was no CC, you could basically ride on that towncred deep into the game. Townies don't need to do that.

[Inferno390]

How is what I said the same as what I said in my last post?

[Inferno390]

Sunlit: The fake claim thing was because if I was going to claim something blatantly untrue, why not all of us? I also figured since the game was going so slow, it would get people posting, and since it was just one blatantly fake claim, it would keep people from trying to do some reading while they were here.

I'm still waiting for Vij, Raya, and Godel, to claim something though.

[Inferno390]

I was trying to do something that was small enough so that people wouldn't devote posts just to it. That would be anti-town.

[Inferno390]

Well, yes, discussion of actual claims would be good (like how Gorny's claim keeps cropping up). But yeah, fixation posts would be anti-town.

[Inferno390]

Which is why he has my vote.

[Inferno390]

Ty, why do you think it's not possible for Gorny to be scum and only look town because of a mistake on N_M's part in claiming doc?

[Inferno390]

I think that they aren't stupid to both claim doc... on purpose. But was N_M's claim and accident? That's the real key to this question.

[Inferno390]

I'm busy tonight and doesn't look like there's much going on, so I'll post tomorrow.

[Inferno390]

Ok class, repeat after me:

Lynching Gorny is bad, like crossing the streams bad.

If you do go ahead and lynch me, I will flip town, no PR whatsoever.

I have an idea of who the PR is out there, be it a Cop, Tracker or Watcher type. But I am not going to say anything about it. At this point, it takes 4 votes to lynch, meaning if I am lynched, scum can sit back and watch the four town that choose to lynch me do so without having to vote. Knowing that the sole scum may be on my wagon, and may even in fact, be pushing for my lynch or agreeing and following whoever might be pushing or ok with lynching me. Its a WIFOM for scum.

So if I am lynched, and another town does tonight (no idea if we have a jailer type or other protective alive or even in game). that leaves five of you and a three votes needed for lynch. Hopefully any alive PR's survive and either manage to tag scum or get another innocent read and claim tomorrow, clearing two people.

I believe Tywin and Inferno are town.

Im not sure on Raya.

I still suspect Godel, who oddly has been coasting so far today.

I strongly suspect Vijarada and won't change there.

Sunlit is a third suspect but not as strongly suspected as the first two.

That's my gut feeling on how the game's going currently.

First off, this is D2. There is no reason for ANYONE to have "gut reads" at this point.
Second, this post seems incredibly AoR. At this point, I am unwilling to just "assume" that Gorny is not scum, no matter how many times he says it. I'm going to need a solid reason why, and so far, I haven't seen one that I haven't pointed out the flaws in.

[Inferno390]

I think that gut reads early to mid D1 are important when your trying to scumhunt on D1. On D2 though, there is far too much information to basing your entire read on "instinct" alone. You should build your reads based on previous posts, not "gut reactions" to everything.

P-edit: AoR is Argument of Repition (I think I got the term right). Basically, it's when you repeat something over and over so many times, other players start to assume it's true.

[Inferno390]

EBWOP: The correct term is Argument

from

Repetition, or AfR. The meaning of the term is still the same though.

[Inferno390]

Here's a page on the wiki explaining EXACTLY why I find Gorny's claim to be scummy:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_as_Town!

[Inferno390]

I'm not sure. I feel like the flip could go either way with Gorny. If he's scum, we win (duh). If he's town, then I'd say that the next person who should be looking at the chopping block is Vij. I would say that her play D2 has been sub-par, for the reasons that you've stated.

[Inferno390]

I'm not sure. I feel like the flip could go either way with Gorny. If he's scum, we win (duh). If he's town, then I'd say that the next person who should be looking at the chopping block is Vij. I would say that her play D2 has been sub-par, for the reasons that you've stated.

Wow, I think this might be the first time I have agreed with you at all this game.

Unfortunately accurate tbh.

[Inferno390]

Great, Gorny, you've sentenced us to see Gödel's abs every day.

Godel, what's your blatantly false claim?

[Inferno390]

Gosh, I totally missed that. Sorry!

[Inferno390]

Just here to avoid getting prodded, I don't have time to read right now, I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

[Inferno390]

I'm too busy to read through 5+ pages tonight, but I do need to let you all know that

I will be V/LA for the next two days. Sorry for the inconvenience.