Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[UC Voyager]

Hey guys. UNVOTE: cathinh up later tonight

[UC Voyager]

Good to know your a jester ...... (;

[UC Voyager]

if anyone cares, i have one completed game on site

I was town PR
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73542

[UC Voyager]

Isn't TheThawClown your alt? What happened on that one UC?

I asked the mod if i could use this account in stead because im having trouble posting on the other.....if it would work, i would use it, but for now, i will use my main

[UC Voyager]

Ok, so when you replaced in earlier you read the thread or no?

i am half way through or so

[UC Voyager]

li won't be able to fully catch up till after school. 7Ntil then, I only make smaller posts when I can

[UC Voyager]

I will be able to make a good post soon. (:
Ima look at the chip case.

[UC Voyager]

intent to hammer in 12 hours

[UC Voyager]

Nah, i'm gonna unvote, your'e gonna vote, I reserve the hammer.

UNVOTE:

you mean you want to be the one to hammer him?
VOTE: Chip
fine

[UC Voyager]

That really would have looked scummy coming from anyone, but CheekyTeeky! In fact. It honestly makes me town read her!

[UC Voyager]

Wait. Was that saying I'm not "logical" enough to give 12 hours notice? You think if I didn't do that ever. Someone would have told me that is what you do.

[UC Voyager]

1 down 2 to go.

I think the scum didn't vote his buddy

Limiting it to NSG, and BTD6. I don't think NSG would have freaked out about hammering if she were scum, so my best guess is BTD6.

[UC Voyager]

Actually. 1 down 1 to go.....assuming there is only two scum

[UC Voyager]

Cool cool.

[UC Voyager]

I thought it was possible Papa Zito would so that, but this early!?! It just wouldn't make since. you do that if there is no way to avoid loosing a scum buddy...

[UC Voyager]

VOTE: NSG

ya. her reaction to the hamer was scummy as hell plus the fact she wasn't voting for Chip....

[UC Voyager]

wait. lemme make sure i didn't hammer there....that would suck.....i dont want to end the day this early

[UC Voyager]

im pretty sure i didn't though

[UC Voyager]

l-1! please dont hammer. i mean. this goes with out saying, but it is always good to Say it when you put some one at l-1

[UC Voyager]

why does it matter to you, don't you think i'm scum anyways?

I want you to prove me wrong. And Micc is the last person you should be worrying about.

i think it makes sense that i should try to make sure that the people that i townread read me correctly. i'll do the chip iso tomorrow, when i have more time.

VOTE: NSG

ya. her reaction to the hamer was scummy as hell plus the fact she wasn't voting for Chip....

explain this - how was my reaction to the hammer scummy? i echoed the same sentiment that our conftown did, that in this setup lynches are less punishing to town because of the stump mechanic and the lack of an immediate nightkill.

oh.......i just reread and you didn't react the way i remembered, i could have sworn you made a big deal about the fact it was a lolhammer, or something. turns out, you didn't. that was my mistake
UNVOTE:

[UC Voyager]

UC, what are your thoughts on the northsidegal interactions with Chip that I quoted?

after reading them, they do look scummy. The fact she got onto the wagon,but pulled off! plus the fact she agreed with him seemed like subtle scum talk.

[UC Voyager]

UC who did you think was Chip's partner before Micc made that post?

I was still trying to piece that together. Im not the most sure. my best bet if it isn't NSG, I think it is BTD6......he also wasn't on the chip wagon.

We got several weeks to put this together as cabd said. no reason to be trying to hammer this early. i want to look into a Papa Zito case. i doubt i will find hard evidence to why he is scum, but i do want to iso everyone and try to find something that would make them seem scummier.

[UC Voyager]

EDIT

I looked at Papa Zito's iso, and found nothing strange about his case like you guys said. He seemed to make decent points that were valid about how Chip was scum. He has a solid case on Chip. I can't see someone bussing that early, but i wouldn't put that out of someones capability.

[UC Voyager]

I will look at his case and see if there is anything other than the fact he didn't vote chip that would point him to being scum!

[UC Voyager]

im not currently voting there. i want to iso someone else and see what it looks like

[UC Voyager]

here is my case on BTD6 maaker. he seems a lot more scummy then NSG!

Spoiler: BTD6 case

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

The thread is in danger of collapsing under the weight of the irony of this post alone. This is from a guy whose own "push" on BTD comprised a single naked vote.

I am reading what Chip Butty has to say about Papa Zito.

I can certainly see the hypocrisy of Papa Zito here, naked voting me and then making this case against you. However, what I am wondering is this: do you think that this hypocrisy in itself is scummy?

I am thinking that if Papa Zito really were scum, they would be aware that they are naked voting me to wagon me. Bearing this in mind, they may think that they themselves will be noticed if they try to dismiss your case as merely casting shade and complaining.

Now, if they were Town, it may be that they are blind to their own hypocrisy. This is psychological projection (essentially, "pot calling the kettle black") and is a common phenomenon. Of course, this means that they are bad Town, but in this case they are still Town.

This is why I would regard that Papa Zito post as being very bad, but slightly Townish rather than scummy. Of course, you didn't explicitly call it scummy but you seemed to imply it, hence why I am asking you.

You have said more about Papa Zito, which I will likely analyse in the morning.

defending Chip in this post. it looks like he was trying to take the pressure of Chip. moving it to Papa Zito.

I meant hedging in the sense that every read youve given has had the word "weak" attached to it.

How can you be avoiding confbias regarding reads you don't even have yet. Like as far as I can tell you havent read a single post made my northsidegal or Chip bitty or Sobeov/Zito slot. Can you say something about your read on them so far.

Every read I have given has the word "weak" attached to it because that accurately describes the strength of my read. The alternative would be to lie about the strength of my read. Do you think it is pro-Town to lie about the strength of your read?

I cannot be avoiding confbias regarding reads I don't even have yet. That would not make sense. However, I can certainly try to avoid confbias regarding the reads I do have.

You made a fair point about not reading Northsidegal, Chip Butty, or Sobolev/Zito. It is true that I haven't analysed any posts by them. That is what I will be doing.

he fails to read Chip. common scum move to not read their scum buddy. just in case they are lynched. if they scum read them, they will be called out for not voting them. If they town read them, they risk being called out for town reading a scum!

I hope that this does not become like Open 642. That was far too inactive and apathetic. It was great for me, because I was scum and the apathy led to two No Lynches, but of course I hope this game doesn't turn out like that.

Let's start with these:

Have you read the game?
Who do you want lynched today?

I have skimmed the game.

I cannot say I want any one person lynched at the moment. My reads are still very weak and flexible. I will be able to give a better answer later today, perhaps. I do have a very weak scumread on the CheekyTeeky slot, but that slot is being replaced and I will have to read the replacement.

I don't understand how these quotes line up. In one you say you don't want a state of apathy, in the next you say you've only skimmed the game and you ask, for the second time (not quoted part) if anyone has something for you to look at. To me this is asking for direction, when town don't want a state of apathy, they are proactive. You can't fear apathy and yet skim read the game asking for direction, that is very contridictory in intent. The only way I can see this lining up is if you're scum concerned about looking like you care about the game state and not wanting to give away too much with stronger reads or pushes, but looking for someone else's opinions to ride on to divert any blame from yourself.

I don't see any contradiction. Asking for direction was an attempt to avoid apathy, not cause it. When Town don't want a state of apathy, asking for direction can help to avoid that. It is not "very contradictory in intent".

Again, this post looks like another contradiction hunt. This would make your point look like it exposes scum when actually it does not do anything like that. Your "contradiction" is not a contradiction at all.

I have already explained why contradiction hunting benefits scum. If you were Town, you would be more likely to notice (after I have said it) that contradictions are not scum-indicative.

This is a weak-moderate scum read. It's the best vote for now.

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

at this point. NSG had made a case on cheekyteeky. HE votes her on a (moderate scum read)

VC 1.6

The flight is departing.

Leading Wagon:
BTD6_maker (3) - Hopkirk, Micc, Papa Zito
northsidegal (2) - UC Voyager, CheekyTeeky

Micc (1) - Cabd
CheekyTeeky (1) - northsidegal


Not Voting: BTD6_maker, Chip Butty

With 9 alive it will require 5 votes to achieve a lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2017-10-29 19:07:10)

Mod notes:
CheekyTeeky has reclaimed their slot.
UC Voyager replaces TheThawClown! Welcome, UCV.

right here. both chip and BTD6 are not voting. as if neither of them had found a good miss lynch!

note

after Chip makes a case on papa zito, he says he will look into the Papa Zito case! following his scum buddy!

VOTE: BTD6_maker

[UC Voyager]

Still upset at my lolhammer?

Yep. Zitos case made no sense. I'm glad we got scum but it should have been because of something that made sense. I respect Zitos gut reads now, I'll just ignore his logic lol. Also mad that you did nothing to discuss anyone D1 Cabd; and that you hammered without discussion.

What are the chances of scum bussing D1? I'm feeling like that's pretty low but it would explain why Papas case made no sense.

I mostly agree with this. I have already explained why I disagree with Zito's case. However, assume Zito is scum. Zito of course would know that they are bussing, but so would Chip. If

Zito made a very weak case

and Chip knows that they want a bus on themselves, they would likely not rebut Zito's case in a way that exposes it completely. So why did they do it? Of course, it could simply be what they think they would do if Town, which is simply defend. Another possibility is that Chip rebutting all of Zito's points is a signal to stop bussing, or perhaps a signal that they should start cross-bussing. Overall, though, I think a bus is pretty unlikely here, so I think Zito is likely Town. They are a moderate Townread of mine now. That said, I still think they are bad Town.

Similarly, Cabd is confirmed Town but I think they made the wrong decision to hammer, even though Chip flipped scum. It seems like Cabd took a gamble and happened to get lucky. I would say that Cabd is also bad Town.

I seem to be calling a lot of people bad Town. This is probably true. People generally have a range of cognitive biases (unless they actively try to oppose them, but there are generally still biases even then) so I can see elements of bad Town in many people. In the past, I certainly was bad Town quite a lot. Even now I probably still have many undetected biases. The main reason why I noticed that there are a lot of bad Town is that I seemed to find that the probability that an average Townie's scumread is correct is significantly less than the probability the Townie gives to their read.

if i read this correctly, this says that Papa Zito made a weak case on Chip. i disagree. Papa Zito made a lot of good points. I think he had a solid case.

[UC Voyager]

So yes, let's chat. We'll both become towner as we go along. And not to be rude or anything, but i feel you kind of owe it to SS to town it up a bit...

rofl I don't owe that guy anything and I sure as hell don't need to "town it up a bit"

Which hey look you've once again made a super vague statement. So here I am asking why you're tossing shade instead of either determining alignment or pushing a wagon. Can you plz solve this mysterious mystery.

My dude.

Once again you've dodged the question while throwing shade. I'll ask the question again: Why would scum Zito be more likely to act this way than town Zito.

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

Rockin.

VOTE: Chip

not really agreeing here. chip actually

has

done some of the things you're describing! as for pressuring you to answer questions, what do you call 523 and 525? you say that he's not examining your iso in detail, but that's pretty much what he does in 521. you could make the argument that he didn't analyze it in detail, but i would say that there wasn't really a whole lot to analyze. it doesn't make a lot of sense for chip to just suddenly start voting you and pushing your wagon just because he believes you've been scummier than ss was - the townread on ss still exists.

I feel absolutely no pressure from Chip whatsoever. Complaining that he doesn't like what I'm doing (523/525)/ taking his ball and going home (526) forces nothing from me at all. You argued your own point on 521, well done.

The SS hedge is fun but either I'm scummy to him or I'm not. He's thrown enough shade to make it clear he thinks the latter so I think I'm perfectly justified asking why his actions aren't aligning with his words.

Here......this isn't a vague case...a little repetitive....but he has a solid case.

[UC Voyager]

okay, i'm here. will start the chip iso shortly.

Chip iso? He was lynched remember. You don't need to make a case on him


Or are you trying to find his interactions

[UC Voyager]

BTD has been avoiding making strong reads, yes, but he is very conscious of that and keeps drawing attention to it, so he definitely not hoping it will go unnoticed. And he is actually right, there hasn't been anything to form a strong read on yet, so i am sympatico. His approach contrasts with the Micc/CT overstate-and-bluff approach to scumhunting, which also has its merits when used correctly. I'm not feeling BTD's CT vote though. I think he probably just a thoughtful, cautious player who will hopefully get stronger reads as the game progresses. If not then can lynch, but i won't be lynching him today.

I think I'll wait for substantial posts from UCV before actually voting. I'm inclined to look at BTD's wagon next. I've been mentioning Micc a fair bit lately, and Zito is ex-SS so probably okay for now, even though he seems to be intent on scumming up the slot. Time to revisit Hopkirk, methinks, esp since i still hold the view that he and Micc are unlikely both to be scum.

Hello friends I will commence with the reading.

onice

Aight I read the things. This game is surprisingly dense.

Cabd is a big fat liar and I wanna see my file. Where do I send my FOIA request.

VOTE: BTD6

Don't know what to make of this just yet. Need more from Papa.

More what.

Like you read things but what do you think about it all? Did you get any reads? Why are you voting BTD6_MAKER? What made him scummy to you?

yeah see this is a much better post than complaining

I do have reads yes and unlike Friend BTD6 I had no trouble getting strong reads.

I'm voting him for reasons I don't want to get into at this time.

Complaining? I said I need more...like more information to make a conclusion. I didn't say omg why is Zito not posting more game content. That's a pretty strong reaction to a pretty neutral statement. Prefacing your post like that makes withholding your read seem more scummy than I'd otherwise find it.

That's a strong reaction? ok

Good thing I'm not too terribly worried about what your read on me is I guess.

Shoulda kept reading.

so what are those strong reads zito? any townreads? who do you think is scummy? your predecessor (you replaced kawso, right?) thought i was scum, do you agree?

I do have townreads yes.

This is the total PZ output before i poked him. Vote on BTD with no stated reason, and repeated assurances thatvyes he has strong townreads and evidence for them, but nothing forthcoming. And he just blows off anyone who expresses suspicion of him, rather than actually engaging them. That's why i said he is scumming up the slot.

Oh, and I'd REALLY be interested in hearing why Micc is willing to sheep onto such a weak-ass vote on BTD.

Okay, I think we're rolling now, at long last.

Well, can you at least say why you don't want to give your reasons for your BTD vote?

I'm willing to hear you out but you're coming across to me as unnecessarily secretive and evasive. Unnecessarily if you're town, that is...

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

Lots of interesting stuff I found from Chip about BTD6. He defended BTD6 when there was a wagon on him. You would think that the scum would try to support a wagon...unless the wagon was their scum buddy.

[UC Voyager]

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

My cheap push? Did you read what I said. Did you even look at the chip defending BTD6, BTD6 defending chip? They seemed to support each other a lot. Didn't ever question each Other.
If I were scum, my best move would to support the NSG case. It is a way easier wagon than BTD6!

[UC Voyager]

I'm pretty confidante in my BTD6 case.

[UC Voyager]

Yeah I hope one day to get my title as "The Schizophrenic" if that's not too offensive, it's not intended to be derogatory as I'd be proud to have that unreadable connotation. Anyway...

BTD6 was a likely candidate D1. When I compare their play it's not unusual that BTD and Chip didn't read each other as they hardly read others. BTD however gave reads when he was pushed whereas Chip waffled on about how hard it was to get reads which pinged me D1 but I'll admit I'm a sucker for witty/humorous players to be town (I'm working on this).

BTD could be scum but what makes NSG keep your vote Micc?

Also UCV I'm very impressed with what you presented and picked up

ThNk you.....I guess

[UC Voyager]

That said, I still think they are bad Town.

If I'm bad town what are you, Captain Not-On-The-Scum-Lynch?

Also I'm not a they.

They is a gender-universal term. It can be used to refer to a guy or girl.....or group of people....

[UC Voyager]

cum) w

this is naked as hell

[UC Voyager]

i find it scummy that btd6 seemed to be on the same page with Chip 24/7? how Chip defended him and not tried to join his wagon? i mean.....they look like they are working in a group!

[UC Voyager]

everyone else except for ucv i am treating as town.

what are you trying to get out of this line of questioning?

why do you think i am scum?

I have made my case on BTD6.....that is that......

Im not sure why no one else thinks he is scum.....

[UC Voyager]

Spoiler:

here is my case on BTD6 maaker. he seems a lot more scummy then NSG!

Spoiler: BTD6 case

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

The thread is in danger of collapsing under the weight of the irony of this post alone. This is from a guy whose own "push" on BTD comprised a single naked vote.

I am reading what Chip Butty has to say about Papa Zito.

I can certainly see the hypocrisy of Papa Zito here, naked voting me and then making this case against you. However, what I am wondering is this: do you think that this hypocrisy in itself is scummy?

I am thinking that if Papa Zito really were scum, they would be aware that they are naked voting me to wagon me. Bearing this in mind, they may think that they themselves will be noticed if they try to dismiss your case as merely casting shade and complaining.

Now, if they were Town, it may be that they are blind to their own hypocrisy. This is psychological projection (essentially, "pot calling the kettle black") and is a common phenomenon. Of course, this means that they are bad Town, but in this case they are still Town.

This is why I would regard that Papa Zito post as being very bad, but slightly Townish rather than scummy. Of course, you didn't explicitly call it scummy but you seemed to imply it, hence why I am asking you.

You have said more about Papa Zito, which I will likely analyse in the morning.

defending Chip in this post. it looks like he was trying to take the pressure of Chip. moving it to Papa Zito.

I meant hedging in the sense that every read youve given has had the word "weak" attached to it.

How can you be avoiding confbias regarding reads you don't even have yet. Like as far as I can tell you havent read a single post made my northsidegal or Chip bitty or Sobeov/Zito slot. Can you say something about your read on them so far.

Every read I have given has the word "weak" attached to it because that accurately describes the strength of my read. The alternative would be to lie about the strength of my read. Do you think it is pro-Town to lie about the strength of your read?

I cannot be avoiding confbias regarding reads I don't even have yet. That would not make sense. However, I can certainly try to avoid confbias regarding the reads I do have.

You made a fair point about not reading Northsidegal, Chip Butty, or Sobolev/Zito. It is true that I haven't analysed any posts by them. That is what I will be doing.

he fails to read Chip. common scum move to not read their scum buddy. just in case they are lynched. if they scum read them, they will be called out for not voting them. If they town read them, they risk being called out for town reading a scum!

I hope that this does not become like Open 642. That was far too inactive and apathetic. It was great for me, because I was scum and the apathy led to two No Lynches, but of course I hope this game doesn't turn out like that.

Let's start with these:

Have you read the game?
Who do you want lynched today?

I have skimmed the game.

I cannot say I want any one person lynched at the moment. My reads are still very weak and flexible. I will be able to give a better answer later today, perhaps. I do have a very weak scumread on the CheekyTeeky slot, but that slot is being replaced and I will have to read the replacement.

I don't understand how these quotes line up. In one you say you don't want a state of apathy, in the next you say you've only skimmed the game and you ask, for the second time (not quoted part) if anyone has something for you to look at. To me this is asking for direction, when town don't want a state of apathy, they are proactive. You can't fear apathy and yet skim read the game asking for direction, that is very contridictory in intent. The only way I can see this lining up is if you're scum concerned about looking like you care about the game state and not wanting to give away too much with stronger reads or pushes, but looking for someone else's opinions to ride on to divert any blame from yourself.

I don't see any contradiction. Asking for direction was an attempt to avoid apathy, not cause it. When Town don't want a state of apathy, asking for direction can help to avoid that. It is not "very contradictory in intent".

Again, this post looks like another contradiction hunt. This would make your point look like it exposes scum when actually it does not do anything like that. Your "contradiction" is not a contradiction at all.

I have already explained why contradiction hunting benefits scum. If you were Town, you would be more likely to notice (after I have said it) that contradictions are not scum-indicative.

This is a weak-moderate scum read. It's the best vote for now.

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

at this point. NSG had made a case on cheekyteeky. HE votes her on a (moderate scum read)

VC 1.6

The flight is departing.

Leading Wagon:
BTD6_maker (3) - Hopkirk, Micc, Papa Zito
northsidegal (2) - UC Voyager, CheekyTeeky

Micc (1) - Cabd
CheekyTeeky (1) - northsidegal


Not Voting: BTD6_maker, Chip Butty

With 9 alive it will require 5 votes to achieve a lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2017-10-29 19:07:10)

Mod notes:
CheekyTeeky has reclaimed their slot.
UC Voyager replaces TheThawClown! Welcome, UCV.

right here. both chip and BTD6 are not voting. as if neither of them had found a good miss lynch!

note

after Chip makes a case on papa zito, he says he will look into the Papa Zito case! following his scum buddy!

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Still upset at my lolhammer?

Yep. Zitos case made no sense. I'm glad we got scum but it should have been because of something that made sense. I respect Zitos gut reads now, I'll just ignore his logic lol. Also mad that you did nothing to discuss anyone D1 Cabd; and that you hammered without discussion.

What are the chances of scum bussing D1? I'm feeling like that's pretty low but it would explain why Papas case made no sense.

I mostly agree with this. I have already explained why I disagree with Zito's case. However, assume Zito is scum. Zito of course would know that they are bussing, but so would Chip. If

Zito made a very weak case

and Chip knows that they want a bus on themselves, they would likely not rebut Zito's case in a way that exposes it completely. So why did they do it? Of course, it could simply be what they think they would do if Town, which is simply defend. Another possibility is that Chip rebutting all of Zito's points is a signal to stop bussing, or perhaps a signal that they should start cross-bussing. Overall, though, I think a bus is pretty unlikely here, so I think Zito is likely Town. They are a moderate Townread of mine now. That said, I still think they are bad Town.

Similarly, Cabd is confirmed Town but I think they made the wrong decision to hammer, even though Chip flipped scum. It seems like Cabd took a gamble and happened to get lucky. I would say that Cabd is also bad Town.

I seem to be calling a lot of people bad Town. This is probably true. People generally have a range of cognitive biases (unless they actively try to oppose them, but there are generally still biases even then) so I can see elements of bad Town in many people. In the past, I certainly was bad Town quite a lot. Even now I probably still have many undetected biases. The main reason why I noticed that there are a lot of bad Town is that I seemed to find that the probability that an average Townie's scumread is correct is significantly less than the probability the Townie gives to their read.

if i read this correctly, this says that Papa Zito made a weak case on Chip. i disagree. Papa Zito made a lot of good points. I think he had a solid case.

So yes, let's chat. We'll both become towner as we go along. And not to be rude or anything, but i feel you kind of owe it to SS to town it up a bit...

rofl I don't owe that guy anything and I sure as hell don't need to "town it up a bit"

Which hey look you've once again made a super vague statement. So here I am asking why you're tossing shade instead of either determining alignment or pushing a wagon. Can you plz solve this mysterious mystery.

My dude.

Once again you've dodged the question while throwing shade. I'll ask the question again: Why would scum Zito be more likely to act this way than town Zito.

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

Rockin.

VOTE: Chip

not really agreeing here. chip actually

has

done some of the things you're describing! as for pressuring you to answer questions, what do you call 523 and 525? you say that he's not examining your iso in detail, but that's pretty much what he does in 521. you could make the argument that he didn't analyze it in detail, but i would say that there wasn't really a whole lot to analyze. it doesn't make a lot of sense for chip to just suddenly start voting you and pushing your wagon just because he believes you've been scummier than ss was - the townread on ss still exists.

I feel absolutely no pressure from Chip whatsoever. Complaining that he doesn't like what I'm doing (523/525)/ taking his ball and going home (526) forces nothing from me at all. You argued your own point on 521, well done.

The SS hedge is fun but either I'm scummy to him or I'm not. He's thrown enough shade to make it clear he thinks the latter so I think I'm perfectly justified asking why his actions aren't aligning with his words.

Here......this isn't a vague case...a little repetitive....but he has a solid case.

BTD has been avoiding making strong reads, yes, but he is very conscious of that and keeps drawing attention to it, so he definitely not hoping it will go unnoticed. And he is actually right, there hasn't been anything to form a strong read on yet, so i am sympatico. His approach contrasts with the Micc/CT overstate-and-bluff approach to scumhunting, which also has its merits when used correctly. I'm not feeling BTD's CT vote though. I think he probably just a thoughtful, cautious player who will hopefully get stronger reads as the game progresses. If not then can lynch, but i won't be lynching him today.

I think I'll wait for substantial posts from UCV before actually voting. I'm inclined to look at BTD's wagon next. I've been mentioning Micc a fair bit lately, and Zito is ex-SS so probably okay for now, even though he seems to be intent on scumming up the slot. Time to revisit Hopkirk, methinks, esp since i still hold the view that he and Micc are unlikely both to be scum.

Hello friends I will commence with the reading.

onice

Aight I read the things. This game is surprisingly dense.

Cabd is a big fat liar and I wanna see my file. Where do I send my FOIA request.

VOTE: BTD6

Don't know what to make of this just yet. Need more from Papa.

More what.

Like you read things but what do you think about it all? Did you get any reads? Why are you voting BTD6_MAKER? What made him scummy to you?

yeah see this is a much better post than complaining

I do have reads yes and unlike Friend BTD6 I had no trouble getting strong reads.

I'm voting him for reasons I don't want to get into at this time.

Complaining? I said I need more...like more information to make a conclusion. I didn't say omg why is Zito not posting more game content. That's a pretty strong reaction to a pretty neutral statement. Prefacing your post like that makes withholding your read seem more scummy than I'd otherwise find it.

That's a strong reaction? ok

Good thing I'm not too terribly worried about what your read on me is I guess.

Shoulda kept reading.

so what are those strong reads zito? any townreads? who do you think is scummy? your predecessor (you replaced kawso, right?) thought i was scum, do you agree?

I do have townreads yes.

This is the total PZ output before i poked him. Vote on BTD with no stated reason, and repeated assurances thatvyes he has strong townreads and evidence for them, but nothing forthcoming. And he just blows off anyone who expresses suspicion of him, rather than actually engaging them. That's why i said he is scumming up the slot.

Oh, and I'd REALLY be interested in hearing why Micc is willing to sheep onto such a weak-ass vote on BTD.

Okay, I think we're rolling now, at long last.

Well, can you at least say why you don't want to give your reasons for your BTD vote?

I'm willing to hear you out but you're coming across to me as unnecessarily secretive and evasive. Unnecessarily if you're town, that is...

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

Lots of interesting stuff I found from Chip about BTD6. He defended BTD6 when there was a wagon on him. You would think that the scum would try to support a wagon...unless the wagon was their scum buddy.

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

My cheap push? Did you read what I said. Did you even look at the chip defending BTD6, BTD6 defending chip? They seemed to support each other a lot. Didn't ever question each Other.
If I were scum, my best move would to support the NSG case. It is a way easier wagon than BTD6!

I'm pretty confidante in my BTD6 case.

i find it scummy that btd6 seemed to be on the same page with Chip 24/7? how Chip defended him and not tried to join his wagon? i mean.....they look like they are working in a group!

lets add more.

BTD6 hasn't even acknowledged my case. He still doesn't seem to be doing much scum hunting, and isn't showing any signs of town

[UC Voyager]

that spoiler didn't work at all.....

[UC Voyager]

he's

if you were referring to me, i was catching up, and still trying to make a good case. i thought CHip was scummy, and so i voted there....

[UC Voyager]

Wait. You don't want us to scum hunt until there is a replacment. If I wasn't so confidant in BTD6, I would say NSG was scummy...

[UC Voyager]

jfc no please don't get them started on statistics

Wait. You don't want us to scum hunt until there is a replacment. If I wasn't so confidant in BTD6, I would say NSG was scummy...

UC I'll make you a deal. You give me NSG today, I'll give you BTD6 tomorrow.

Why would I vote someone i don't think is scum...

[UC Voyager]

It saddly has. I have considered the NSG case, but im more in favor of a BTD6 lynch. right now we have a head start, but that can go away fast.

[UC Voyager]

Intent to hammer

Later
Im hoping your scum because trying to self-vote is terrible....

[UC Voyager]

chanics of this game make it so that it's not as much of an issue. like i said, taking my mod-confirm i

true. a lot of scum do this when they get mad and just want the game to end....If you want, i will hammer you, but i would prefer to progress my BTD6 case

[UC Voyager]

yea

[UC Voyager]

VOTE: NSG
okay.....lets see how this flips

@mod can we vote to end night early?

[UC Voyager]

IF you are town, you will be like an IC, so you will be able to give imput

[UC Voyager]

-still town-

that sucks. hopefully we get good uimput from you tomorroww

[UC Voyager]

I think BTD6 is scum. Simple as that...

[UC Voyager]

Is this a self-WFG?

In this situation, obviously scum will lose if they are lynched and so must avoid their lynch at any cost. Town, on the other hand, generally want to avoid their own lynch but in Northsidegal's case they can benefit from being lynched and becoming an IC.

If NSG is scum, they must be essentially using the self-WFG and hoping that their play, which is apparently suicidal for scum, is read as Town and thus they avoid the lynch. I would say that this is pretty unlikely as it would be gambling away the game. If scum, a much less risky strategy would be to simply go after another lynch candidate.

I am confident that NSG is Town, but of course not to the same extent as Cabd, or someone who doesn't hammer in LyLo.

That said, I do feel that we are wasting a lynch here. We still only have two mislynches to spare in the worst case. Of course, it is possible that we lynch a primed Townie, or Cabd is successful, but we will not know if that is the case.

That leaves four likely candidates (from my perspective): UC Voyager, Micc, CheekyTeeky, and Hopkirk. I would be very surprised if NSG or Papa Zito were scum.

At the moment, UC Voyager looks like the most likely. It looks like they were leveraging the interactions between Chip and me to scumread me. Of course, they were most likely not planning to target me specifically, but whoever they could get to agree with and Townread them. Was it likely that they were planning this beforehand? I would say it is moderately likely, which raises the probability of UC being scum above average.

VOTE: UC Voyager

PEdit: There is no point in voting today, of course.

as he lines up several miss lynches....

[UC Voyager]

Can you respond to this quickly.
'@UC: 673 In regard to the fourth point, what do you mean neither of them had a good mislynch? North had 2 votes and BTD had 3 at that point, there’s a clear counterwagon there that neither of them were on. This strikes me as town points for BTD, not scum points.'

BTD6 was a bad miss lynch for scum team because BTD6 is scum
NSG was at 2 and didn't have the biggest case for...

[UC Voyager]

What does this mean?

[UC Voyager]

You said there was no counterwagon.
If either of them voted then BTD and North would both be on 3 votes.

Sum won't vote u less they have a good case...

[UC Voyager]

There wasn't enough to make a case on Noeth

[UC Voyager]

'UC Voyager, Micc, CheekyTeeky, and Hopkirk.' Is this in order (since UC is first)? If so why Micc before Cheeeky?

UC Voyager is indeed first. The rest is unordered for now.

as he lines up several miss lynches....

Once again, you are shoehorning to fit your pet theory. Given that I know I am Town, we all know Cabd is Town, and Northsidegal is flipping, that leaves five people. I have already stated why I think Papa Zito is unlikely to be scum. That leaves four people in my lynch pool. It's simple elimination.

You wanted me to respond to your case. Now I have. In my rebuttal I also asked several questions directed at you. Do you have anything to say about it?

hey. at least if i die, i can still push my case on you........I am very confidante your scum.

[UC Voyager]

Well, now I have. I have been scumhunting throughout. I think that your "signs of town" do not work statistically. Is Town really more likely than random to show "signs of town"? Be specific about particular signs, then we can use statistics.

this seems to be the only one......
answer
town will actually contribute. another sign of town is voting for the scum
also scum reading the scum
being separate from town lynch
NOT saying "i dont have reads yet"

so on so on.....you seem to have done nothing to seem townie, and there are reasons to say you are scum!

[UC Voyager]

Well, now I have. I have been scumhunting throughout. I think that your "signs of town" do not work statistically. Is Town really more likely than random to show "signs of town"? Be specific about particular signs, then we can use statistics.

this seems to be the only one......
answer
town will actually contribute. another sign of town is voting for the scum
also scum reading the scum
being separate from town lynch
NOT saying "i dont have reads yet"

so on so on.....you seem to have done nothing to seem townie, and there are reasons to say you are scum!

Read the rest of the post.

Firstly, I have actually contributed. Also, do you have statistics to show that Town contributes more than scum, on average?

Voting for the scum, scum reading the scum, and being separate from the Town lynch all require foreknowledge of the scum. What you are trying to say is that Town has to be right all the time. I already rebutted that. Also, have you ever heard of bussing? It's common.

That point is a PRATT. You keep on presenting it as a solid point without bothering to read the refutation. You have to address the refutation directly and why you think it is wrong. You are not doing so.

The last point is similar. I have said many, many times that I try to accurately show the strength of my reads, and I will not try to inflate them to make them stronger than is warranted. Are you suggesting that lying about reads is Townish?

NO. what im saying is someone isn't voting for the scum, there is a greater chance they are scum. scum dont buss often! It is an ineffective strategy! When scum do buss, Town usually puts it together! I have played as scum before, and never have I tried bussing!

[UC Voyager]

Man .....no flip yet....tbh. I'm kind of suprised

[UC Voyager]

Savor the anticipation.

lol...Though i dont think she would lie after being hammered

[UC Voyager]

ng to win t

hell yay...DON'T QUIT TIL IT IS OVER! NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!

[UC Voyager]

Last mod checkin was over two days ago. Hopefully soon.

I am currently looking into Lycanfire's absence.

In the meanwhile, if you would like to all forward me your Role PMs and any Actions you may have taken, I will compile them in case this requires a hostile takeover!

uhhhhhhhhh........i know you would never do anything relatively hostile Ari

[UC Voyager]

opps...im dead....i thought this was queue...my bad

[UC Voyager]

Yes. Congrats.

I actually was thinking it was BTD6 at first in the dead thread because Lyan didn't spoil it, but hinted at it. It looked to me like he was hinting at BTD6, but after you lynched hin, he told me it was hopkirk and I was like. Town lost.

[UC Voyager]

the dead thread is just me mourning over my terrible play

[UC Voyager]

the dead thread is just me mourning over my terrible play

and me getting false hope in the game