Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win
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Luca Blight Survivor
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This observation might have been useful after such a roleclaim, but is now useless.In post 27, mutantdevle wrote:
I've never played this setup before but I get the feeling that anyone who was a jailkeeper wouldn't tend to make a joke about there being the death of an individual at night when they are able to stop it. Personally, if Elmo ever role claims as the jk in this game I'm likely not going to believe it :3In post 24, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:
Have you ever played this Setup?In post 11, sheepsaysmeep wrote:good job assuming theres no jk
this might be a slip but not rlly-
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I don't see how this post does anything to move the game forward.In post 40, kelbris wrote:I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.
I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.
I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to
UNVOTE:
for now.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kelbris-
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Why is a naked unvote worse than a naked vote?In post 53, Transcend wrote:I think I'm someone that will always be bothered by naked unvotes-
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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mutant
He says we should lynch whoever seems least useful at the end of a long pointless early reads list which seems designed tolookuseful.
Not only does this seem contrived, it's also a terrible strategy - scum have more motivation than Town to look as though they are useful for their very survival is of most importance to them.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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How is it dumb exactly?In post 73, Transcend wrote:But you don't even deny that your question was a dumb one so lol-
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I'm skeptical as to this Townread of Kelbris here.In post 59, DeasVail wrote:Town reads so far:Kelbris, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.
I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.
Spoiler: Let's take a look at his posts
Post #1 - Rvs; NAI.
Post #2 - what I would call an unproductive post - it's early in the game and 'pressure' on the likes of Transcend and IceGuy is designed to create content. Defending IceGuy here does nothing but put a halt to that momentum, leaving the game back where it started; with nothing. I'm even more skeptical after Deas' point (which I agree with) in 39 where he acknowledges that such exaggeration of early posts in and around RVS is sometimes required - why then does he like this post by Kelbris?
Post #3 - Kelbris explains his #2 post. His point against Fitz is fair enough, but then why not mention it in post #2 and why not place a vote on Fitz/follow up his suspicion with questioning?
So if Deas could explain this one, that would be great.-
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I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.In post 31, havingfitz wrote: Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:
1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:
You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.In post 17, havingfitz wrote:I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?
VOTE: DeasVail-
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And this one:
You call it a 'shame' he's not genuinely claiming IC, but then later are annoyed that an IC could have potentially been outed:In post 19, havingfitz wrote:
I assumed a mispell...not lame humor.In post 18, Transcend wrote:The mod cannot confirm me as innocent chile
Shame....you're one it would be nice to have confirmed.
VOTE: Transcend
In post 31, havingfitz wrote: Regardless...pretty clear there will be an IC in this game which makes Transcend's lol claim all the more annoying. Would have sucked if Transcend is town and his humor caused the real ~IC to claim. As it is...I think the ~IC should wait until he/she is on the verge of being lynched...if that ever happens. Same obviously for the other 2 PRs.-
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With regards to Fishy, his point against IceGuy here is completely null:
The amount of times I've seen someone use 'OMGUS' as the reason for an RVS vote is innumerable. As someone who has been here since 2008, he must surely have seen the same types of RVS posts coming from both alignments? As for the 'super helpful townie' thing - that could be a valid point, but not a very strong one as I could easily see a Townie making the same point.In post 32, Fishythefish wrote:Not sold on the Transcend wagon. I think blatant rolefishing is one of those "scumtells" that scum don't actually do.
IceGuy is a bit more convincing, because of what Ectomancer said here:In post 30, Ectomancer wrote:I asked myself why Iceguy would state the super obvious to Transcend to not ask the mod to confirm the role claimed. Iceguy has been around, but Transcend has literally 10x the number of posts of either one of us. So I'm slapping Iceguy with an "I'm a super helpful townie" scum tell violation.Also, IceGuy's random vote goes out of it's way to tell you it's random (saying the reason if OMGUS). Making sure you don't provoke any actual conflict seems more likely to come from scum.
Then why aren't you voting IceGuy?In post 60, Fishythefish wrote:
Yes.In post 33, IceGuy wrote:Are people seriously basing a scumread on two posts, one of which is RVS?
This is an incredibly simplistic view and devoid of context.In post 32, Fishythefish wrote:
What makes you think that? I'd say moving from Transcend to you looks more like someone trying to find scum;In post 48, IceGuy wrote:
Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum.In post 39, DeasVail wrote: It seems pretty usual to me that people exaggerate the significance of their thoughts early game in order to actually have something to talk about. Is that your experience too?someone who doesn't care who they lynch has no reason to hop..
Is Fishy really implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop?-
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Other things I don't like about Fitz' 31 post:
First of, why explain an RVS vote?In post 31, havingfitz wrote:Slow day.
Not fond of RVS but typically throw a vote out anyway.
Hence the DeasVail vote.
Also not fond of people doing shit that could potentially result in town PRs being outed. Ex...claiming something that resembles an actual town PR like "Innocent Chile" smh....
Hence the Transcend vote.
Second, was he actually scumreading Transcend for this, or did Fitz just vote him because he was made to look a bit silly (and possibly scummy)?
He is so uncommitted to his Transcend vote, why bother even keeping it at this stage? I don't like this because it looks like he's making an excuse for an unvote but feels a bit self-conscious about doing it right away.In post 31, havingfitz wrote: Not solid on my Transcend vote...if he was going to screw around as scum and try to lol out someone I would think he'd try for a non-IC pr...which scum would know who was in play. i.e. I doubt my vote stays there long.
If he doesn't like where his vote is, why isn't he striving to find a better place for his vote? 31 is a long post, but it's all setup spec and making excuses; there is not a hint of scumhunting.
Then, 12 posts later he nakedly unvotes.
What compelled him to unvote here?
Speaking of votes, I like mine better here right now.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fitz-
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Devoid of context because you were making a general statement that didn't take into account the current state of play - the fact the game is still in its infancy which means wagon switches bear less significance.In post 94, Fishythefish wrote:When you say "devoid of context" - do you think there's more context I should have added?
Fair enough.In post 94, Fishythefish wrote:No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.
IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.
Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for 'finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum', or could a Townie also do such?-
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@Mutant- my point (and reason for voting you) wasn't so much the fact you were looking helpful, but the fact you concluded that helpful-looking post by saying we should lynch whoever is least useful. You can see how this seems a little contrived?
And yes, scum do try to look useful - because by not being so they will be suspected. The key word here is try: as Town you are naturally curious and motivated to find out who the scum are, but as scum this has to be faked to some degree.
To be fair your tone reads pretty Town which is one of the reasons I switched my vote, but I don't think your post was useful - what has it achieved exactly?-
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If it's not so bad for an IC to claim straight away, why were you so annoyed Transcend might have caused a potential real IC to claim?In post 109, havingfitz wrote:I don't feel like individually addressing mutant and Luca's suspicions towards me point by point but since they seem to be along the same lines I will say this:
- imo it's not the worst thing in the world for an IC to claim right out of the gates. I kind of lump them with millers in that regard. So Transcend's claim, if true, wasn't horrible.
- if I were an IC I would not claim until I was on the verge of being mislynched.
- if an IC did see the need to claim...I would expect them to have the mod confirm the claim.
- I really dislike when town (assuming Transcend is town) claims a PR that they are not.
- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.
The rest is just repetition of what you've already said.
So why the hell did you vote Transcend?In post 109, havingfitz wrote: - Transcend, in my estimation, is a bit of a wildcard and sometimes does things I might not necessarily say or due...so when he mentioned the mod had referred to the role as innocent chile (which I had not recalled) I could absolutely see a joke claim coming from town Transcend. Hence the unvote.
- My current read on Transcend is a town lean. His Innocent Chile lol claim could have been from either alignment so I'm just going to ignore it.
Consistency of my wagon? What are you talking about?In post 109, havingfitz wrote: - I think Luca's push/vote on me is weak and I was considering a vote on himn...but I'm not sure I like the consistency of his wagon so I'm not going to vote him at this time.
I want to look over a few players who have my attention before deciding where to vote.
I gave multiple reasons I don't like your play so far and you've ignored pretty much all of it, so it's a bit 'weak' of you to call my push weak.-
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I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?In post 115, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:
Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.In post 82, Luca Blight wrote:
I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.In post 31, havingfitz wrote: Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:
1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:
You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.In post 17, havingfitz wrote:I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?
VOTE: DeasVail
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.
Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.
Perhaps that's just me though.-
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Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following:
With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?
You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?
What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?
What do you mean by the 'consistency of my wagon', and why is that a reason to not vote me?
Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:
I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.
I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.
I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.
I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?-
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@Fitz
1. If you remember then please share.
2&3. So you unvoted because Transcend said it was a joke in 37? The problem I have with this is that you already acknowledged it was a joke in 19...the same post you originally voted him.
4&9. Why would whoever is on my wagon affect whether you vote me, especially given you've already said you have no clear reads? And you haven't taken into account that at least two of the votes on my wagon weren't serious, and the other (LUV) has replaced out.
5. Fair enough I guess, but you haven't actually observed anything related to what's been posted so far.
6. You expected what?
7. Again, your apparent annoyance of a real IC being potentially drawn out doesn't quite match your regret that the IC claim wasn't real. My problem is that your annoyance doesn't seem genuine - you weren't annoyed when you thought the claim was genuine, you weren't annoyed immediately after; your annoyance seemed fabricated. This is probably something that can't be proven nor disproven, but it's just something I picked up.-
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There was also something about her opening post that pinged me as well:
Like Sheep mentioned after, it's as if she has knowledge of the selected PR's to say that the IC claim would be killed tonight.
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Again, you are answering a specific point generally. Your previous answers do not answer this point.In post 146, havingfitz wrote: 2&3 - I have explained in detail, and more than once iirc, why I voted Transcend and why I unvoted him.
Until your vote on Mutant just now you hadn't taken a stance on anything so far, which kind of implies such...In post 146, havingfitz wrote: 4&8 - I never said I "have no clear reads." Don't attribute what you think to what I say. When I made the comment the votes were still on you...when they got there was not a factor in my apprehension.
Go on then - show me what you've observed that's related to what's been posted so far.In post 146, havingfitz wrote: 5 - You don't know what I have or haven't observed.
So you're annoyed because he was joking around which could have lead to a real IC claim....In post 146, havingfitz wrote:Transcend indicates the mod cannot confirm what I was perceiving as an IC claim. This is annoying as shit to me because (as I have pointed out)...anything a townie does that has the potential to cause a town PR to unnecessarily out them self I view as bad. So Transcend is either scum fcuking around that can't confirm their claim or bad town. Either of which is worthy of my vote imo.
....but are then no longer annoyed because Transcend explained his joke which could have lead to a real IC claim.... right.In post 146, havingfitz wrote: Transcend points out the mod had referred to IC as Innocent Chile...which I had read but had not recalled...and then his lol claim made more sense to me. I could see Transcend having some fun with the mod's wording. Hence the unvote. No annoyance at this point.-
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Err, are you accusing me of something here?In post 159, Elmo TeH AzN wrote: Luca right after with the insa vote bandwagon.
Why is this an opportunistic vote but Yuria's vote in 155 isn't?In post 159, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:In post 141, mutantdevle wrote:VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN
I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.Note the opportunistic vote
Right now Im comfoy where my vote lies. Transcend can get lynched. You all wanted me to vote and do XYZ Ill be honest. Ive been on vacation as of late.
Did you think Mutant's reads list was NAI at the time you made the vote, or after he provided meta for himself doing this as both alignments?In post 161, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:
Personally I found it to be fluff at best. Im going to contradict myself here I'm completely aware of this.In post 160, IceGuy wrote:So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?
Is 'fluff' something that is alignment-indicative for you?-
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Thanks for answering, but do you have anything relevant to say to the current game state?In post 188, kelbris wrote:to answer the question asked in post #125, havingfitz essentially covered a lot of the reasons I had for suspecting him with some reasonable answers. He makes a very valid point regarding Transcend's initial claim and I agree with him on the fact that Transcend's claim could have caused the real IC to reveal themselves-something which is NOT good for the town (unless there is a JK).-
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Wait, didn't you suspect IceGuy for being a 'super helpful Townie'?In post 184, Fishythefish wrote:Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.-
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Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.In post 185, mutantdevle wrote:I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.
Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.-
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Probably because I'm Town.In post 196, Ectomancer wrote:
Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.In post 194, Luca Blight wrote:
Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.In post 185, mutantdevle wrote:I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.
Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.-
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Just to reply to this bit directly:
Underlined - To be fair, how is he supposed to respond to being accused of being overly helpful? It's not something he can exactly disprove.In post 169, Ectomancer wrote:
Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason.But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):
"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"
And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"
lynch Iceguy
Italics - He didn't say vote, he said scumread - quite a big difference as far as RVS goes.
Bolded - Here you have a point; it was an awkward comment, although I think it refers as much to the Transcend wagoning as much to his own.-
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You can't really say there was 'no RVS stage' when myself and others made posts of an entirely RVS nature.In post 208, Ectomancer wrote:
My wall of quotes detailed two instances after I made my accusation against him where he could have directly answered to my reasoning. I felt as though I had given the first vote out of the RVS stage. By definition, that means an actual reason. Specifically, it was the "I'm a helpful townie" tell because it felt forced to me given Transcend's experience and it was a "duh" type of post. If you are town I expect you to tell me why, right? It is a reasonable expectation. But what did he do?In post 206, Luca Blight wrote:Are you still maintaining that IceGuy is scum? To be honest I thought the early wagon was just for pressure purposes and to get the game out of RVS.
His posts since RVS haven't really pinged me at all.
#1 - Question me about whether I am serious after 2 posts in RVS.
#2 - Question whether I am scum hunting at all.
So a simple "you are being too helpful" tell; blew up quickly to a "wow, you've avoided answering to our first serious accusation" twice now.
By the way, the following is just a technical game comment. - Transcend skipped the RVS stage and he was first post. There was no RVS stage this game.
You have a fair point to say IceGuy's start wasn't impressive and was perhaps slightly scummy the way he got defensive so quickly, but am I sold on him being scum? Honestly, no. The last game I played he was Town and he looked scummy as hell right from the get-go. Some players you have to make some allowances for in that respect.-
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Here is a post of a similar nature from the other game I mentioned:
I made a big case on him (which he cut out of the quote) and he completely disregards it and says I'm just trying to find reasons to wagon him which, let's be honest, could be said about any wagon!In post 139, IceGuy wrote:
So basically, you've decided that you want to start a wagon on me, and then tried to find reasons for it.In post 133, Luca Blight wrote:I really don't like Iceguy's start, his vote for Grapes or his subsequent unvote.-
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IceGuy's 'information-y' thing was also pro-town, and why wouldn't you bring it up past the first few pages? Because it doesn't suit your agenda?In post 237, Fishythefish wrote:
Yes, I did. Saying information-y things that don't actually help the town is very mildly scummy, though it's not a tell I'd bring up past the first few pages. I'm all for information-y things that are actually protown (and I think making potential quickhammers scared of being vigged is actually protown).In post 192, Luca Blight wrote:
Wait, didn't you suspect IceGuy for being a 'super helpful Townie'?In post 184, Fishythefish wrote:Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.-
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Can you explain why being 'very pro-town' hasn't caused you to townread me? Especially considering you were dishing out town reads willy-nilly earlier on in 59.In post 246, DeasVail wrote:Luca is someone that is very pro-town, but I haven't formed a solid opinion on his actual alignment yet. However, I would be unlikely to lynch him as I feel that his alignment will become obvious with time).-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Can you explain this one a little more, preferably with an example?In post 247, Elmo TeH AzN wrote: Also note that Iceguy has tried to buddy buddy me so far which Im sure everyone has noticed.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I am wondering if a Townie would be so reigned to their own lynch as Elmo is here.
It could be unconfident scum - the mindset being 'whatever I post is going to look scummy, I give up'.
What sort of Townie would just accept they are a 'dead man walking' so early in the day, and use that as a reason for not trying?-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Another thing we have to constantly bear in mind here is that scum have day chat - this affects everything.
Could the reason Elmo isn't trying to save her own bacon be because her scum mates are devising a way out without her having to give out too much info?
A scum member who is about to be lynched will be reluctant to give out too much information in case it impacts negatively on their teammates post-flip - Town have no reason to do this.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I have a gut scumread on Kelbris - he's been non-confrontational and barely posting anything relevant to what's actually been going on in the game, until 253 which is a post that pings me a bit:
He said he disagreed on Elmo's early reads, but he hadn't mentioned Elmo at all until this post.In post 253, kelbris wrote:I would like to know this as well. I am honestly considering voting to get Elmo to L-1, I honestly disagree with his opinion on early game reads. I have seen several games played where scum have been successfully found with reads from within the first 2 pages. I am eager to see if he can convince everyone that he is town, rather then just attacking the wagon.
His comment about scum having been found early on in previous games is pointless - just because it happened in previous games doesn't affect the likelihood of Elmo being scum in this one.
And being 'eager to see if she can convince everyone she is town'? That seems like he's looking at the situation from a distance rather than being directly involved in it, as if he were a spectator. Something about the wording of it seems weird to me.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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