Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[ProHawk]

The fact that Luca is basing reads on past experience, yet scum reads me without using said experience when we literally just finished a game together worries me.

[Transcend]

^ ^

[Transcend]

Fuck

[Luca Blight]

The fact that Luca is basing reads on past experience, yet scum reads me without using said experience when we literally just finished a game together worries me.

I'm not one to base reads on meta generally, but UCV is a special case as he literally is scummy regardless of alignment as I keep saying.

[Luca Blight]

Luca, have you noticed the avoidance of conflict to be something UCV does as scum?

Yes.

And in response to your post, no. His response to Fishy in 1005 is more what I mean. I think his case on me was bad, but differentiating whether that comes from town or scum is a whole different thing. My guess is town because The badness was glaringly obvious in a way that I think scum would be more careful to avoid. Whereas town have a greater tendency to post without carefully thinking. And he hasn’t put as much effort as I would perhaps expect into correcting that mistake if he were scum.

He has been pretty much ignoring his mistakes for the most part - he only made that response to Fish because I called him out on it.

Please don't go down the line of saying UCV is too scummy to be scum - I cannot emphasise how scummy he is in every game he plays, whether he is Town or scum. In the game I just played with him he was scum and he lolhammered a Town PR on D1 without even allowing for a claim.

[DeasVail]

I’m not a fan of the term “too scummy to be scum”. I think the key is in adjusting your definition of “scummy”. Bad does not by any means equal scummy, for example. Given what you’ve said, I’ll have to read UCV’s past games though, as what you’re saying doesn’t align very well with what I classically consider to be scum vs town.

[UC Voyager]

lets not meta read. thanks

and that isn't true. i have been in about 9-11ish games. you have been in 3 of those. 1 of those i was scum. the other 2 i was PR. Stop treating me like a fucking noob. it gets annoying. Do you know how many times i see "UCV is scummy as town". idk how the fuck i am because i always seem to do fine at finding at least one scum. I didn't win the one scum game off "being scummy as town". i actually played. now you are being an asshole about it. you don't even know shit about my town play that is changing

1.
mandela effect, i was not playing my normal meta. why? because i was pissed off at the fact i was a PR and everyone seemed to be out to get me there. I played hella differently. the other game i was in with you, you replaced out early, i made it to day four, then was NKed. i was conf town most of that game. I am sick of your "he is scummy as both alignments" to say im scum. it is shitty reasoning. You act like you know shit about my meta.

I dont mean to go off on you, but I think you need to shut the fuck up about "he is scummy as both alignments", and make a real fucking case. thank you

[Luca Blight]

You're continuously mislynched as Town, and the only reason you survived in that scum game was because people know you're always mislynched as Town and put your scumminess down to poor Town play.

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just stating a fact: whether you like it or not, you are scummy as both alignments - hence why I don't want to point out all the scummy shit you've done this game (there's a lot of it) as it can all be dismissed with

"but he's scummy as Town also"

. I'm looking deeper, at the intricacies between your scum and Town play, and I believe this is your scum game. Nothing so far has lead me to believe otherwise.

[UC Voyager]

You're continuously mislynched as Town, and the only reason you survived in that scum game was because people know you're always mislynched as Town and put your scumminess down to poor Town play.

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just stating a fact: whether you like it or not, you are scummy as both alignments - hence why I don't want to point out all the scummy shit you've done this game (there's a lot of it) as it can all be dismissed with

"but he's scummy as Town also"

. I'm looking deeper, at the intricacies between your scum and Town play, and I believe this is your scum game. Nothing so far has lead me to believe otherwise.

FUCKING SHIT

no. what fucking went down day 2 is that they started to realize there was no resistance to my wagon, so unless the scum team with me/plot or me/peaches, i wasn't scum. day four, me and Thor bussed, so end game, Toto thought the scum team was either me, nsg or thor, Luca, so he asked you to move your vote to NSG, then i quick hammered. the fact im scummy a lot was a discussion, not reasoning.


if there is so much scummy stuff i have done, point it out!!!! i don't know why you havn't all ready god damnit. you don't know shit about my scum play. considering i have only been scum twice, and in both of my scum games, i have played differently!

look here
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=73733
here. i played more lurky. i stayed away from the major wagon, and did some statistics talk. I was not on the lynching wagon

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=73448
here, i desperately defended myself against the people trying to lynch me, then did some serious band wagon and lolhammered twice!

hmm where are some town games where i wasn't scum read
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73520
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73654 (i was a little here, but there was never much of a wagon on me. I actually endgamed here)

town games where i was scum read a little, but not a ton
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=73370 (i was scum read at first and had something of a wagon. day four, I was only scum read by the scum team!)


Luca, despite the fact you havn't been that scummy in this game, im hoping you are scum and not just a jerk. This is getting annoying!

[Fishythefish]

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just stating a fact: whether you like it or not, you are scummy as both alignments - hence why I don't want to point out all the scummy shit you've done this game (there's a lot of it) as it can all be dismissed with "but he's scummy as Town also". I'm looking deeper, at the intricacies between your scum and Town play, and I believe this is your scum game. Nothing so far has lead me to believe otherwise.

What I'm seeing from UC is cases which I just don't believe are real; I'm pretty sure they came about through skimming someone's ISO

after

deciding to vote for them. Is that, specifically, NAI for UC?

---

Btw boring is still scum imo.

This is true. Anyone else interesting in a boring wagon?

[mutantdevle]

I’m still interested in boring.

[Transcend]

VOTE: boring

Hawk doesn't endgame

[mutantdevle]

So @UCV, here is my list of all the times you have failed to answer a question, not answered a question adequately or been ignorant to calls against you. Sorry about this wall but I think that just reflects how your play has been:



913 - At the top of my post I asked you a question. The second one was, of course, rhetorical but I would have liked an answer to the first question. Overall, you didn't really react to my post here at all.

945 - Boring asked who you were leaning town on based on your initial read of the thread. You never replied. Your next post after this simply promised thoughts on DV which didn't address either my nor boring's questions.

948 - I reinforce the idea I want you to answer my question in 913 yet you continue to ignore it.

970 - fishy votes for you and says your attack on DV was bad. You made no attempts to justify your attack on DV after this and you claim fishy's vote on you was a random jump. This is blatantly ignoring how someone is seeing scum within you.

993 - fishy makes a proper case against you and calls you out as scum. He made several points in this post which you chose not to address for a while. Furthermore, at the bottom of the post, he asks you a question based on something you wrote in post 968. You have yet to answer this question and clear the confusion with the point you were making there.

994 - Luca says he agrees with fishy which clearly shows there is some support against you. You completely ignored this additional pressure.

1001 - Luca asks if you are going to answer fishy's case against you and in post 1003 you straight up tell us you are not. So you are purposely avoiding any pressure put on you with the excuse it doesn't help you scum hunt which is such a bs point to make.

1005 - You make a complete u-turn on your stance of not answering fishy. But instead of addressing each of his points you simply ask a few questions to reject the points made against you. I do not feel you answered fishy, you just tried to make it seem like you did. If that was genuinely your defence against him then it is a very poor defence and does no one any favours.

1012 - fishy points out your response wasn't good enough and asks you to answer each point he makes individual which you have not done. He then asks if you read the boring vote in context which you also have not replied to.

1014 - Deas asks you to elaborate on your read on him by explaining the inaccuracies within it. You do not answer.

1025 - You completely ignore everything that has happened beforehand here to take a weak shot at Ectomancer. You make no reference to any of the mounting pressure on you and seem oblivious to everyone's points against you.

In posts 1038 and 1040 you are purposely ambiguous over what I am doing to raise alarm bells for you despite Transcend's call for you to elaborate. 1040 was hardly an elaboration as you briefly state 1 new thing followed by a reiteration of your previous post.

1059 - Luca votes for you which you seemingly do not care for and you choose to ignore.

1068 - I call you out for a 2nd time for not answering my question in 913. I also make reference to how you inadequately answered fishy's concerns. Finally, I directly call you scum in this read and state how I intend for there to be a wagon upon you. You make no attempts to address any of this reiteration.

1069 - At the top of this post I make a statement of how you could be in a scum team with boring and kelbris. Not one of you three have addressed this thought and it makes me wonder why you'd choose to ignore it. Boring even quoted the rest of what I was saying in that post so she purposely left out the part where I call the 3 of you out. Would you like to address your relationship with boring and kelbris now?

1077 - You claim there is barely a case on you yet both fishy and Luca are voting for you. Furthermore, I had put forth and interest in voting for you as well as generally being against you. Finally, DV had also questioned you to some extent. If all of that is "barely a case" then it must take the entire town to be against someone before you think they are being opposed.

1082 - Luca asks you 3 questions here. You only answered 2 of them. You are still yet to answer whether you think myself or DV are more likely to be scum.

1088 - I asked you about whether you are reading in context which you have not answered. It is still unclear now if you have read things in context. I also mention how you had not answered my original question for the 3rd time as well as reference how you haven't been answering other people's questions as well.

1091 - Luca aks you what made you change your thoughts on Transcend. You ignored this question for quite some time.

1096 - I vote for you, which you also ignore. Would you still consider being halfway towards a lynch as barely a case?

1103 - I make a detailed post as a defence against the points you made against me. This is the kind of thing you should have done when fishy called you out. Furthermore, if you are genuinely trying to push for a wagon on me like you suggest later then surely you would respond to my defence by addressing each point I make? So are you serious about trying to lynch me or what?

1109 - You answered fishy's question in 1108 basically immediately whilst ignoring the huge post I made about you and the other concerns players have such as why your view on Transcend had changed.

1111 - You get angry with me because apparently I had never asked you any questions. Not only have I asked you many questions but I've also stated you're not answering other's questions. You claimed you looked through my posts and couldn't find anything which makes me doubt this claim since I mentioned that you hadn't answered a question 3 times; 4 if you include the question itself. Furthermore, this post makes it clear that you've acknowledged my calls to answer questions but have ignored them every time. Even if you didn't know what questions I was referring to you have had at least 3 opportunities to inquire as to what I meant. But instead you maintain ignorance against most of the posts that call you out.

1117 - You finally answer Luca's question in post 1091, at least, it appears that way. You stated in the next post that you were actually thinking of DV so that invalidates your explanation of why your Transcend vote changed. You then stated your reason for the change which was kinda strange if you ask me. You stated the change was because his reason of trying to attract the night kill made sense to you but his alleged motive of trying to attract the night kill would have been something you would have read before you gave the initial read on him if you truly did read the thread as you claim.

1156 - You ask us not to meta read you. Why, is there something in your meta you have to hide? Meta is a good way of scum telling players if their general play style is consistent. At least you have started to address concerns against you in this post and post 1158 but the way you are doing so is coming across as aggressively anti-town and as though you feel backed into a corner. Besides, you still have a lot more to answer to.



That's 25 points against you. Do you see why both myself and others see you as scummy? I expect you to adequately answer everything I have brought up here. If you feel like that's too much to answer all at once then you should have been answering these concerns as the game has gone on. I doubt you're going to answer much of this though since you never do.

[havingfitz]

My impression of UCV is they're lynchbait. The lack of responses could be due to being in too many games. Is their response rate to questions AI for them?

[Transcend]

yo fitz, how do you feel about the votes that were on you?

[havingfitz]

yo fitz, how do you feel about the votes that were on you?

Iirc Pro is the only vote I've recieved the entire game.

Viomi tbd/slight scumlean

My view on this slot hasn't moved townward. If anything Pro's reasoning for voting me has hurt it imo.

[Transcend]

i could've sworn someone else voted you and he voted you with them

[Ectomancer]

i could've sworn someone else voted you and he voted you with them

I haven't voted Fitz but I've been quite anti-Fitz. I still am.

@UCV - I don't care about other games. I care about this one.

@Mutant - OMFGMYEYESPLEASESPARETHEM

[Transcend]

Something is really fishy about hawk's fitz vote

[mutantdevle]

My impression of UCV is they're lynchbait. The lack of responses could be due to being in too many games. Is their response rate to questions AI for them?

According to Luca, avoiding questions is something UCV does when scum aligned. Besides, if UCV has the time to make a huge post trying to call me out as scum by analysing my posts then he sure as hell has time to answer a single question here or there.

@Mutant - OMFGMYEYESPLEASESPARETHEM

I don't understand why people have problems with walls when they are structured neatly. Would you rather I didn't contribute so much? Or would you prefer if I split my analysis up into several consecutive posts so you don't feel like you are reading so much? Either way, just deal with it.

[ProHawk]

I can't get over the opening play by HavingFitz in asking for mod-confirmation of a claim and then voting said person when the claim was clarified as being false. His post just sounded like he knew that Trans was lying and he would have absolutely known that as scum. Call it conf-bias but his posts since then haven't swayed my view. - Scum

The nerve of me voting someone who had lied about their role...and then voting them again later when they did it again with more damaging results.
How is asking the mod to confirm an IC claim scummy? That's a feature of the IC role...it's mod confirmable. I would do the same with any other role that came with such a guarantee. So you come up with a shit reason to suspect me and use that as a scum tell against me all the while when it sounds like you have the same view towards Transcend's actions...

Question....how would I know Transcend was lying? Even if I were scum, which I am not, I would not know who the IC was. And unless you think scum passed on having the most useless PR of the 5 in the game...there is an IC out there somewhere. So how would I as scum "have absolutely known that?" Unless you are suggesting I am scum that knew there wasn't an IC....which is laughable imo to suggest.

Transcendence.... Villiage Idiot. Being that he claimed at L-3 and not at L-1 like I had thought for some reason... he may be town but still falls into a dont-let-live to endgame category.

So I am voting him at the moment (though probably not for long), and that is also something you would like to see transpire before too long as well (eliminating Transcend), yet despite this similar viewpoint I'm a better recipient of your vote because I caused him to out his fakeclaim?

Good stuff.

Hold your horses Fitzy. Lotsa misdirection here!

1) Issue isn't about you voting someone who lied about their role, issue is that I believe you knew they were lying and used that information to force them into admitting that lie, subsequently voting them.
2) Don't play dumb, you know exactly how scum would have known there was no IC role in the game. Also, IMO IC is one of the strongest roles in the poison pool but we could save that convo for another time if you want...
3) What does you voting Transcend have anything to do with you being scum exactly?

[boring]

Okay, I've skimmed UCV's meta first (will do sheep and then Fitz later).

I've noticed a few things. First, UCV over uses punctuation.

Second, this game is more like the one scum game presented (I found only town games beyond that) than the town games, but it has a unique feature as well. UCV try-harded the scum game, and is applying more-than-usual effort here too. Also, the town game posts primarily consisted of 1-2 sentence posts with a fair amount of proactive content. Less than 25% of the posts seemed to be quoting another post in the town games. In the scum game, it was about 50/50 with post quotes. In this game, a majority of UCV's posts include quotes (sometimes quote walls). It indicates a reactionary playstyle, which I typically associate with scum play.

But he's right, one way or another, he's trying something new here. Either a tweak to his scum play or a big change to his town play.

Enough for me to be willing to vote there.... just let me catch up to the newest page first.

[boring]

@Fitz - do you have easy-access to your meta lying around anywhere, or do I need to sift through your profile? (for example, boring makes it super easy to access through her wiki link because she's awesome).

It's called searching my topics. Is there something in particular you're interested in?

Yeah, I want to see what a few of your scum games and town games look like at roughly the same activity level. If you have any you want to link me to, it'll save me some effort. Please and thank you.

[boring]

My impression of UCV is they're lynchbait. The lack of responses could be due to being in too many games. Is their response rate to questions AI for them?

That's a decent point. Dude's in a shitton of games right now.

[UC Voyager]

what do you mean. i try harder here. I AM NOT! im putting an equal effort.