Mini Normal 1976 - The Firsts - Night 2[End Jan 8]

[Hawk]

Hello everyone.

Had a really day yesterday so I missed my PM and didn't log in yesterday. My bad. I'll catch up with the few things I missed so far in a minute but I'm getting ready for work. This is just to check in.

[Hawk]

So just a quick read with leans from what I've seen.

I like. (slight townlean)
Monkey
Psycho
RB
and maybe Sky?

I don't like. (Scumlean)
Jodaxq
Derpy

Really don't like 2iAM

VOTE: 2iAM

[Hawk]

Since monkey and I are both town I might as well wagon with him.

VOTE: PsychoSavant

Now that I think about it that's a blantant lie so more votes pls.

"More often" still implies more than twice.

I generally have shorter posts.

If anything this makes monkey look bad for acting like the open game has been over for awhile.

UNVOTE:

These are the things I really didn't like.

First one pinged me the most cause he just casually wagons with reasoning him and Monkey are both town off what the two of them just asking and admitting they're town? How odd, it was also odd that Monkey didn't question that but questioned the wagon saying he didn't know if TIAM was town but didn't make too big a deal that TIAM acted like Monkey was Confirmed.

After that it felt like TIAM was pushing for Psycho even though it seemed like an honest mistake on TIAMs part but I understand the feeling of being defensive there. I just felt it odd way of reacting.

I don't remember the thing but Derpy responded before I posted this and TIAM claimed.

They're slight there's not much to go on I just got more town vibes than scummy vibes from them. I even stress Maybe in sky cause im uncertain.

[Hawk]

psycho is confirmed sucm.

Why?? You're filled with a lot of conviction for someone who shouldn't know much about negative alignments.

[Hawk]

I stopped pushing for psycho once I realized I had made a mistake. Here you attack me for pushing psycho, and then you attack me for unvoting psycho. Make up your mind.

I even explained that if anyone was scummy it was monkey because he knew the Open was over and withheld information to try and make me look bad.

Town are more self critical of their thought process because they don't want to mislynch. Here it looks like you're looking for a reason to mislynch me and didn't provide details on your thought process until pressed, and then your thought process doesn't look town.

You attacked, were proven mistaken. Then shaded. Then unvoted. I quoted you in order that happened.

I was providing thought process but you guys responded before I could get my thoughts out. I don't remember what I'm supposed to out in the box to signal that but it happened lol. Sorry I haven't played on site in like 6 plus months?

[Hawk]

psycho is confirmed sucm.

Why?? You're filled with a lot of conviction for someone who shouldn't know much about negative alignments.

I have a better question? why aren't you actually reading the game?

I have explained why he is confirmed scum. He lied and backtracked. 2 things town don't do.

I am reading and from what I read he didn't lie? 2IAM was mistaken?? Apparently Monkey withheld information? I didn't see that part tho.

[Hawk]

psycho isn't confirmed scum, but he is still really scummy. I honestly don't see how anyone can give him a town read.

Meta diving and then defending his argument is scummy? Like his ISO is he felt like the entry post was bad. Metadived. Saw a trend in openings and then highlighted them and voted. What's scummy? I mean yeah it's aggressive but not scummy.. He hasn't said anything besides that so it reads town to me on first glance and I try not to flip my opinion back and forth rereading the same shit a million times. I can get wishywashy if I do that.

[Hawk]

Now that I think about it that's a blantant lie so more votes pls.

"More often" still implies more than twice.

The second post after the first before unvoting is what I meant by shade. Like you're saying he still looked scummy for what he said even tho he didn't lie and your initial was yeah that was a lie scum!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your tone in 35 but it sounds like something you'd say if you still thought what someone did was scummy. Like "You lied" "Oh, you explained, well to me it sounded like you said more than that so still a lie"

[Hawk]

Meta diving and then defending his argument is scummy?

Yes. Using meta is garbage in general. His conclusions were wrong and didn’t really make sense plus people enter rvs different each game. Changing your entrance isn’t AI.

So he’s basically grasping at something to use which is very scummy

I only disagree with the using meta is garbage. I get where you're coming from but I feel like you're making assumptions based off things you shouldn't know. How can his conclusions be wrong if we don't know 2IAM alignment this game?

Grasping is scummy. Defending when pressured is not. He literally got called a liar page one.

I can agree it seems inorganic but he hasn't made any other posts since, so I remain to be unconvinced it's more scummy than town but maybe I'm missing something...

Psycho posted: Why did you decide to defend your metadived rather than retract and say the argument was weak? anything besides him lieing (making a mistake)

[Hawk]

Can someone tell me what I'm supposed to out if my preview before I post shows new posts and I want to respond. I'm a slow typer and play from my phone mostly.

[Hawk]

Also interested in how fast you found it important to metadive TIAM lmao

VOTE: PsykoSavant

I'm on break from school, I have nothing better to do with my time. I hate RVS so I went looking for data on something I found weird. For the shiggles.

Take your pick of reasons.

People being like but what's the reason. He gave 4 reasons here. I don't think he expected this to pan out the way it did.

[Hawk]

Psyko, do you think he was purposely lying there? Do you seem him now as someone you would like to lynch?

Hawk, just post what you need to post lmao that's what I do

It's preview edit!! right? Or PE: Something like that.

Also that's not very towny lol if you had a thought process but then it changes based of something someone said before you got it out there it can be helpful to see your opinion before in writing and then your reaction after a post.

EP:
I don't think theyre alignment reasons I don't think his metadive is alignment indicative, thus I don't see scummy motivation to defend your argument when pressured why not just be like I was just bored guys chill it probably means shit all?

[Hawk]

Now I'm more uncertain than before.

I don't see why you would think he would be purposefully lying. Also I don't see arguments for why he was scummy I see arguments that he has a meta and was following it... which is fine... for like drawing information out but not AI to this game... like meta is only AI on completed games because it can be manipulated. It is a useful tool for drawing things out of people but you're focusing way less on that and more on the metaread itself....

I'll explore more when I get to take my lunch getting to work now.

Till then UNVOTE: Though I highly doubt that scum could have hammered you at L2 elegantly enough for us not to be suspicious of people voting you.

[Hawk]

When I said I didn't see arguments I was specifically meaning your 116 btw. My quote didn't take I guess.

EP: I am. I asked you why you defended your metadived argument besides him lieing (making a mistake) and you said because you saw a pattern.

Will respond more to this later.

[Hawk]

Though I highly doubt that scum could have hammered you at L2 elegantly enough for us not to be suspicious of people voting you.

Don't you think he's scum

I do. You probably didn't understand the tone here. I think he's overreacting with the "A l2 vote deserves explanation" The game didn't seem to be moving that quickly so he wasn't in any danger.

I'm confident probably one scum in 2iAM and Psycho I just am more inclined towards 2iAM. But I could be wrong.

pedit: and you guys say meta is garbage *eyeroll*

[Hawk]

What’s done is done bro. There is no turning back.

P.edit - your slot is scum. Confirmed. Sorry.

Rip

Let's give it a day to relax

I'm almost sure ur town so

Why are you almost sure??

[Hawk]

What’s done is done bro. There is no turning back.

P.edit - your slot is scum. Confirmed. Sorry.

Rip

Let's give it a day to relax

I'm almost sure ur town so

Why are you almost sure??

In normal games, vigilantes can't be scum


Plus, I know derpy, and I know when he's town or scum

Did I miss a claim?? O_o why would he claim. Sorry I skimmed the yelling match.

I noticed you didn't like my initial reads. Which ones bothered you? is it Sky? cause I'm starting to see where that makes sense.

[Hawk]

That's fine, also after reading the last few pages again good God why can't people just be civil....

[Hawk]

So just a quick read with leans from what I've seen.

I like. (slight townlean)
Monkey
Psycho
RB
and maybe Sky?

I don't like. (Scumlean)
Jodaxq
Derpy

Really don't like 2iAM

VOTE: 2iAM

@Hawk

The reads I didn't like about these- sky was part of them, nothing towny so far at that point from him, and I think it's possible you are scum pushing on an easy mislynch of 2iam because he's consistently lynchbait as town.

That's fair. Sky probably should have just been a null not sure why I didn't even include nulls or leave him off the list. Hmmmmm...... perhaps......

Here's my thoughts.

Now that i've had more time to read and catch up i'm still just as lost as ever. Of course i'm coming off a long hiatus so that could be part of it. Something about jodax stuck to multiple people so far including two people i was town leaning so i can see my vote going there. Anyway, i don't particularly like derpys claim it felt very odd but
i guess he's a very emotional player so benefit of the doubt. Maybe we should look into profil then?

You should never vote a town pr claim d1, or at least i wouldn't. Knowledge is power and knowing that i feel uneasy by his doubt. Seriously, i don't like this.

end thoughts.

So I'm okay with Jodax or Profil at this juncture. 2iAM still pings me but I might have been reading the situation incorrectly as someone stated earlier.

VOTE: Jodax

[Hawk]

profi's assumption of Mulch as town, and Mulch's quick vote of Jodax after profi was voted makes me think they could be a scumteam.

I never voted profi. Are you lying?

You think Mulch and Profi are scum team because mulch is attacking Jodax after Profi gets voted by Bujaber?

[Hawk]

profi's assumption of Mulch as town, and Mulch's quick vote of Jodax after profi was voted makes me think they could be a scumteam.

I never voted profi. Are you lying?

You think Mulch and Profi are scum team because mulch is attacking Jodax after Profi gets voted by Bujaber?

Possibly.

So you question Mulches logic rather than Bujabers logic to address his read on Jodax then vote Profi?

[Hawk]

So Mulch you agree with me that jodax and sky are scummy but you lump me with them. Typical.. I guess I'll just need to play more games on mafiascum so people know me.

Screw it.. don't vote uncontested PR claims. Town 101.

VOTE: profi

Like is this a policy lynch vote??

"I don't like Sky or Jodax, and Mulch agrees with me. I quoted one scum in Derpy and Mulch earlier. Let's vote Profil"

Uhhhhhhh

[Hawk]

Merry Christmas Happy holidays everybody I'll post more tomorrow. This is just a check in to let y'all know.

[Hawk]

Okay so I'm back. I haven't caught entirely up (need to review but i have read up to latest posts) yet but when I get the chance I'll do a full review and update my reads. But from a quick skim I can voice some quick thoughts.

1. I don't like Mulches claim. A few people pointed out it seems perfect which is reasonable but to be honest I'd rather this get sorted out at night.

2. I both hate and love a few things Profil has done. I believe he was the first to point out how horribly convienant Mulches claim was which to me is fine but I'm not sure why he said it. My gut initially said I think most of town shoupd feel this way. I'm not sure if that's AI but my initial gut is it's towny because that's what I thought when I first read the claim. Now what I hate was the random hey guys let's no lynch. That's weak, makes you seem weak, and you're taking weak stances meaning I now feel like you're just trying to blend in now. Shape up man. If you wanna draw attention to something fishy do so confidently don't back down right after that's just bleh... also that's my advice for both alignments btw.

3. Derpy I'm getting pretty strong townvibes from but I wish you wouldn't tunnel so hard and focus on other players even if they've said less, your tendency to focus in makes me second guess your intentions when you say things. Like was that malicious and trying to make that person seem scummy or was that just enthusiastic and passionate that you're right he's scum?

4. I'm still fairly confident there is probably one scum between TiAM and Psycho but I need to reread their latest stuff to get a better feel. At first glance I didn't like TIAMs post calling out Mulchs claim but him being unwilling to vote mulch feels like he's taking a both sides stance so if Mulch flips town he can be like "Damn don't act scummy" but also "I didn't want to lynch mulch d1. Wouldn't scum want to take an easy mislynch? Especially on a cop?"

[Hawk]

Derpy I'm getting pretty strong townvibes from but I wish you wouldn't tunnel so hard and focus on other players even if they've said less,

Im not focusing on mulch only. I’m currently voting profli. I see nothing townie from him. I’d also support a psycho lynch. That’s 3 people that I’m willing to lynch.

It just feels like you've only talked about Mulch most of the game. I know you haven't entirely funneled. A little more on your Psycho read and your read on Profil would be nice.

[Hawk]

-Hawk, I guess the one thing we can say about Derpy is if he is fronting an aggressive tactic and doesn’t intend to shoot the cop after all, he is doing exactly what you are telling me to do and standing by his convictions. I’m probably picking Derpy as more towny than Mulch but I guess I hadn’t really figured that with the even night claim bit it’s going to be so easy for Mulch to say oh yeah I read that guy who already died as he has loads of time to think about which player to fake read

-Sky, I went back to review the part of your post that you highlighted in red - given than Psyko eventually did lay a lynch on TIAM I think it’s fair to say he did have a scum read so I’m not sure I entirely agree with what you are saying here. Therefore moving on to the BuJ bit, I can see why BuJ said what he did in post 73 but given that’s its day 1 I think BuJ is a bit naive to think someone caught scum on page 1

Well sticking to your conviction is one thing. Tunneling is another.

Saying I think this person is scum for reason. Then voting someone else or NO lynch is bad imo.

I think this person is scum but I don't know if I want to lynch him today. Vote this other person for reasons. Is good/ok imo.

This person is scum, reasons, this kill this and only this. maybe this... maybe this other... but nothing else. Is tunneled.

I just want more depth of a read or maybe some townreads from Derpy. Like I said getting townvibes but want more.

I've caught scum on d1 p1 before. It was great, they were new tho. lol.

Pedit: Not gonna lie that felt pretty town from Profil... I would think unless Mulch really is scum and Profil is his partner there is no reason why scum wouldn't just lay back and ignore that situation as much as possible.

I personally feel like not lynching mulch because I believe DH claim and if we lynch Mulch DH might be shooting a little less blind. I'm more willing to accidentally lose a cop here from a shot then to lynch a cop and get someone else shot along with a mafia nk.

PPedit: For the record. I don't believe Mulch, if DH wasn't shooting Mulch for sure I would be pretty inclined to lynch the crappy cop claim with no pressure on him. I mean it just feels awkward. If mulch wanted the claim to stop the shot from DH I think as town he would have waited till much closer to a lynch to claim rather than be like Derpy I'm a fucking cop don't shoot me with 7 days left and no one at l2

[Hawk]

Statistics don't work that way profil. This is a social deduction game and I'm sure it is less than half in fact it's probably pretty close to x/y percentage where x is the average # of scum players in any given game and y is the average total number of players in any given game.

Pedit: No odds don't work that way...

Also that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let's ignore the proclaimed action of a person who can directly eliminate a player and choose our lynch without considering this information. Changing DHs mind is reasonable if you believe both DH and Mulches claims.

[Hawk]

The point is, once derpy shoots me, lynch million and others who encouraged the shot

Oh and make derpy apologize

That’s all I ask

I'll be perfectly honest if I believed your claim I would prefer Derpy to not shoot you. Why did you claim so early??

Did we ever determine mafia actually has daytalk? I thought someone said something about that earlier.

So you no longer believe Derpies claim as one shot vig? if you're voting him because he's the most pro-scum you're not helping town unless you don't believe his claim.

[Hawk]

I don't buy Mulch's claim. No reason to claim this early in the game and claiming because of an argument with one player is really poor play. Also claiming cop could force a counterclaim and even night means he doesn't have to give results right away. Too convienient of a claim for me so I call BS.

This is the single handedly worst post of the game.

You know why?

He’s SEEN me as town claim early and is trying to push me on it.

2inamilloon is scum

Did you claim early in these games because of anger not logic as well?

[Hawk]

Acryon if you had to guess a second scum assuming we leave the claimed PRs alone who would you vote scum then?

[Hawk]

Your situations assume that DH won't shoot if we lynch Mulch.

[Hawk]

I feel like this setup is odd....

Jodax, Psycho, and Buja all got really quiet recently but it's probably just time zone stuff.

I don't think early aggression is AI... this game started off very oddly. 2iAM and Psycho started us off then DH and Monkey continued it...

Pedit: Hyperbole, AtE, and lots of what I'm guessing are Rhetorical questions.

We've only discussed 2 power roles that's not that much power for town is it? so this right here sounds off to me...

"You don’t think town might need a lot of power?" Like what about an even night cop and a one shot vig screams "A lot"

Assumptions made based off of knowing more than they let on?

Ppedit: echo what acryon is saying

[Hawk]

People are saying vig and cop can’t be in a setup together, they can cause town needs a lot of power with 3 scum.

With 2 scum we might be 2 of the 3 power roles or something

I'm not saying they can't. I was saying your assumption that town needs a lot of power in your big post to Acryon made me ponder your word selection.

However, Im unfamiliar with balancing so I'm not a very good judge of power in a mini.

[Hawk]

So why didn’t you mention you didn’t like our pushed when I originally asked you?

I asked why you scumread me you said monkeys aggressiveness and my claim

Now it’s my pushes too? And monkeys? And you still can’t explain why you thought monkeys aggressiveness was scummy even after asked twice?

And your ignoring meta that thoroughly disproves your entire procsss?

Your full of shit

Meta never proves or disproves anything. Anyone worth a mafia penny can manipulate an argument and find games/posts to support or refute a certain style of play as a certain alignment.

The reason I am voting for you is because I don't believe your claim. The reason I don't believe your claim is because your play hasn't felt like town (read: gut feeling) and the circumstances and nature of your claim make it highly suspect.

You're sidestepping the aggressivness/monkey argument here...

Acryon what made you question monkeys alignment on the read? your first vote was echoing 2iAMs sentiments about Mulch. Which was Nothing against Mulch everything against monkey. Meaning you agreed you didn't like monkey. Let's hear that side.

[Hawk]

Ok, my claim is a good claim to make as scum.

But I’m not scum.

So why couldn’t I be town whose making the claim?

You keep making aeguements that my claim is perfect IF I’m scum

But that has the premise that I’m scum

So if you don’t assume I’m scum, why is my claim bad

Because as a PR you shouldn't claim early unless put up for lynch.

Because as a PR you could soft claim PR if being threatened to be Vig'd rather than I AM THIS EXPLICIT ROLE KNOW ALL OF THE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES THEREOF

Because as a PR it might help to crumb something and point it out with your claim rather than blankly claim it early d1.

Your claim was weak and looks very much like fuck I'm gonna get shot and that's not good for scum team.

all of that ontop of it being a very good claim if you are scum

[Hawk]

Acryon who are you voting again? What's your thoughts on profil?

[Hawk]

Sorry I have a headache I'm not sure why I even wrote that first question... I need to wake up.

Derpy I'm ISOing Profil and I think Mulches flip will tell a lot about Profil but I see where you're coming from..

I want more from RB, Sky Paladin, Jodax and generally everyone else who's being quiet. I feel like we keep cycling in and out players who are active and it's not giving a good painted picture.

Pedit: Yeah I knew that idk why I asked I Think I thought you were psychosavant for a second chiming in. Your black and white profile pics got me confused. I blame my headache.

Okay. Let me look through the ISO again there were a few comments that bugged me I wanted your opinion since I thought you said TiAM was your potential alternative to mulch but you were pretty set on mulch.

[Hawk]

I’ve had an idea. If we are going to lose a PR when DH kills Mulch, I’ll make a different policy vote

VOTE: no lynch

Ner!

Actually I realized I was confused for a second I misread a previous Profil post but I do want to call back to this a bit. Between this and Profils constant what if scenarios always ending with town losing multiple members do you think that's town indicative?

Anyone can answer but I suppose this is more directed at Acryon right now.

Derpy do you think Profil hasn't been trying to dig up scum? What are your thoughts on Bujaber, and RB? You said you could do Psycho are you still feeling 2IAM is town?

[Hawk]

Ok, my claim is a good claim to make as scum.

But I’m not scum.

So why couldn’t I be town whose making the claim?

You keep making aeguements that my claim is perfect IF I’m scum

But that has the premise that I’m scum

So if you don’t assume I’m scum, why is my claim bad

Because as a PR you shouldn't claim early unless put up for lynch.

Because as a PR you could soft claim PR if being threatened to be Vig'd rather than I AM THIS EXPLICIT ROLE KNOW ALL OF THE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES THEREOF

Because as a PR it might help to crumb something and point it out with your claim rather than blankly claim it early d1.

Your claim was weak and looks very much like fuck I'm gonna get shot and that's not good for scum team.

all of that ontop of it being a very good claim if you are scum

I mean

If I was scum I would claim odd night cop and fake a peek

Would also not claim in anger if I was scum

Your right it’s not logical but I wasn’t being logical when I claimed so

WIFOM about what you would claim as scum.

Okay let's play a scenario out real quick.

Assume these two things happen.
1. We don't lynch you.
2. We convince DH to not shoot you.

What benefit does town gain from keeping you around for one more night because most likely scum will and can kill you sometime between now and n2 before you get investigation results off?

[Hawk]

NL was more of a rage option at DH going to shoot a cop claim but now people are actually talking about it I’m less ragey

Okay so you're voting 2iAM. You want to avoid DH and Mulch if both are not counter claimed and DH isn't shooting Mulch.

Present to me your case on why 2iAM over anyone else. Also specifically over psycho (since I feel like there's a better chance for 1 scum between these two than not)

[Hawk]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

It's Wifom because I dont know your alignment. If you had claimed odd night and we had called it suspicious you easily could have said you would have claimed even night and knowing that blahblahblah. Wifom.

If scum kill you n2 then they gain cover/lynchbait for 1 day plus the rest of today as you'll be heavily scrutinized tomorrow if you're alive.

Also know the cool thing about a mislynch for scum? if your mislynch lives but gets close to getting lynched but doesn't people who pushes the mislynched get looked at.

Scums power and weakness lies in the information they have which is who is actually scum.

[Hawk]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

[Hawk]

I don’t understand what you just said

Any argument that starts with.

"If I was scum" is WIFOM. You can sit there and tell me all day about how you would do blah as scum rather than what you have done. It doesn't defend your action it says that the action you have taken is opposite this supposed truth you put on the other side. I suppose it's more of a False Dichotomy than Wifom.

I'm to believe that no matter what as scum you would claim odd night cop instead of even. And not any other possibility. Idk you that well and as scum it's an easy defense to something you've done.

[Hawk]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

I'm pointing out that Mulch's statements are not factually proven correct. How is that scummy?

Two things.
1. If you're town you don't know his alignment so saying his check would be fake is just furthering a push that he's scum without adding anything.

2. You easily could have just said you're only providing a single possible outcome Mulch that can't be proven. What you said can only be truthful if you're his scum partner cause you know the claim is fake and his check would be fake.

Pedit: that's cool I give no fucks about your record as scum because it doesn't pertain to the case at hand, and 2 your statement still doesn't do anything for your town rep. You could be lying, and as scum saying "If I was scum I would *insert thing here that I'm not doing this game*" is an easy lie to tell.

[Hawk]

Wow appeal to experience and WIFOM in the same post.

What the fuck is appeal to experience

Zzz

Ur almost as scummy as acorn

It's an arguement from authority basically.


An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, or the argumentum ad verecundiam[note 1], is a form of defeasible[4] argument in which a claimed authority's support is used as evidence for an argument's conclusion. It is well known as a fallacy, though it is used in a cogent form when all sides of a discussion agree on the reliability of the authority in the given context.

pulled from Wikipedia. It's basically using your winlose record as scum and your own baseless statement as foundation for your argument that "I would claim odd night rolecop" is true.

[Hawk]

If scum kill me, then they lose a mislynch the way things are going
If they don’t, I get a cop check

Simple

And it’s not wifom,
I would claim odd night as scum lol

You mean your fake check where you make up a guilty on someone, they end up being mislyched, and we are in a further hole?

Slander motion to strike from the record.

This is scummy. No reason to even post this as town.

I'm pointing out that Mulch's statements are not factually proven correct. How is that scummy?

Two things.
1. If you're town you don't know his alignment so saying his check would be fake is just furthering a push that he's scum without adding anything.

2. You easily could have just said you're only providing a single possible outcome Mulch that can't be proven. What you said can only be truthful if you're his scum partner cause you know the claim is fake and his check would be fake.

Pedit: that's cool I give no fucks about your record as scum because it doesn't pertain to the case at hand, and 2 your statement still doesn't do anything for your town rep. You could be lying, and as scum saying "If I was scum I would *insert thing here that I'm not doing this game*" is an easy lie to tell.

I'm 4-3 as town and 2-1 as scum. My wiki page is updated.

Okay? The pedit was directed at Mulch not you lol. Pedit means I saw a post in my preview so I added that.

[Hawk]

Look at all my scum games.

I’m townread.

I don’t get scumread as scum

It’s very simple logic

Gamblers fallacy? just like meta your past results have no bearing on what's actually going on in this game.

[Hawk]

You shouldn't blame other people that no one can understand you.

Benefit of the doubt and burden of proof asside I'm not convinced that any more or any less of my read on Mulch.

Mulch why are you voting 2iAM? Just give me an idea of the things that he's said that make you think they're scum

[Hawk]

You shouldn't blame other people that no one can understand you.

Benefit of the doubt and burden of proof asside I'm not convinced that any more or any less of my read on Mulch.

Mulch why are you voting 2iAM? Just give me an idea of the things that he's said that make you think they're scum

It's called OMGUS.

If his only reason is because you're calling him scum it is. Stop answering questions he should be answering. You're literally not gaining anything from this and your idle comments feel like scum edging other people towards bad lynched rather than Town making solid cases against people they think are scum....

[Hawk]

UNVOTE:

Jodax still hasn't contributed meaningfully as even his most recent posts are mostly piggybacking Sky. But that's okay. Sky is towny as fuck. For now I think we can switch gears.

Going off what Sky said I'm okay with Psycho, 2iAM, Bujaber lynches.

I'm okay with Townblock, Me, Sky, DH(mostly from the claim), Mulch(from the claim), RB and one other.

RB I really would like you to read some of what was said. Most of the pages with me going back and forth with Mulch amounted to not a lot besides I think getting some other people (acryon, 2iam, and profil) to chime in which might be worth looking at. Most of me and Mulch is me trying to get mulch to make an actual argument not based on logical fallacies. But none of what he said was very AI as you can't really say for certain it's bad town play or bad scum play based off what information we have.

Jodax why are you leaning Psycho more than Bujaber??

[Hawk]

UNVOTE:

Jodax still hasn't contributed meaningfully as even his most recent posts are mostly piggybacking Sky. But that's okay. Sky is towny as fuck. For now I think we can switch gears.

Going off what Sky said I'm okay with Psycho, 2iAM, Bujaber lynches.

I'm okay with Townblock, Me, Sky, DH(mostly from the claim), Mulch(from the claim), RB and one other.

RB I really would like you to read some of what was said. Most of the pages with me going back and forth with Mulch amounted to not a lot besides I think getting some other people (acryon, 2iam, and profil) to chime in which might be worth looking at. Most of me and Mulch is me trying to get mulch to make an actual argument not based on logical fallacies. But none of what he said was very AI as you can't really say for certain it's bad town play or bad scum play based off what information we have.

Jodax why are you leaning Psycho more than Bujaber??

Here's the thing about Mulch though. Lynching him is such a low-risk/high-reward play. If we lynch him and he's town, it's not a big deal since he was going to be killed by mafia anyways so we don't really lose the PR by lynching him. The fact that he claimed means there is (I would say) a higher-than-average chance of hitting scum. We will feel very bad as town if we allow scum to fakeclaim and live on for days for no reason. Not to mention if we don't lynch him, he will continue to be a point of contention if he lives on. Do you want to be stuck in a LyLo with Mulch?

How is it high-reward? It's actually the average reward since if we lynch him and he's scum DH is probably dying tonight without protection...

If he's scum and DH shoots him that's actually higher reward as we might actually get 2 scum tonight.

Also no matter what the days play out almost the same.

Assuming the setup is simple and is 9 town 2 scum or something like that we go either
7-2/5-2/3-2 or 6-2/4-2/3-2.

I can see an argument that a blind shot n1 is worse than not having to no lynch on d3 but like you said. You would think Mulch is going to die no matter what.... unless you honestly think scum will keep him around because of how scrutinized his claim has been.

[Hawk]

Fairly certain DH said he wouldn't shoot mulch if we lynch town today cause that would be bad...

Also I can see Bujaber being scum, I really didn't like his most recent posts. Psycho needs to get back into this game and post so I can get a better read there too.

VOTE: BuJaber
fighting a sinus infection/sinus headache so I probably won't be very active today

[Hawk]

DH if we lynch Mulch who are you shooting?

Pedit: Mulch is being anti town and needs to probably go today/tonight. I understand everyone's reasoning that Mulch is a detriment to town and a potential lynch.

Mulch if you don't believe town deserves your help/you're not willing to help replace out or stop complaining you're going to get lynched/shot. People doubt your claim and disvalue your play. You cant be close to confirned until D3 without you flipping so there's not much you can do if you're being this anti town.

However there is a pretty big elephant if we lynch Mulch and DH doesn't shoot and lives (Not saying he will but scum if they feel like they're not under pressure should leave him alone) He's an unproven claim and if Mulch is the most likely for us to lynch and the highest chance for scum flip we should let Derpy shoot him to confirm him tomorrow.

Ppedit: I agree with 2iAM. Except for us contemplating your shot we have been trying to analyze and look into other lynches. Mulch you have had ample time without votes on you to scumhunt.

Pppedit: With a lot of power scum could be a rolecop

[Hawk]

Why would I be helpful to a town that’s been a dick to me

Because if you're town it's your fucking win condition? Too butthurt to play to that replace out mate. It's nothing personal it's a damn game.

[Hawk]

You got me guys, I’m a scum fucking even night cop

Good job

You’ve found the first ever game in mafiascum history with a scum cop

/s

I know you're being sarcastic but

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Role_Cop

Can be a mafia role.

Not saying you are but you have to understand we are under duress to not believe your claim considering how you have reacted to people being skeptical of alignment.

[Hawk]

DH if we lynch Mulch who are you shooting?

Probably psycho

You realize you kinda have to shoot right? Otherwise it's the same as leaving up Mulches unsubstantiated claim and anyone who doubted your claim will be wary of you tomorrow.

So are you for sure shooting Psycho If we lynch Mulch? I mean it all sorts itself fine if scum NK you but I don't think they will.

Too many people won't give both of you the benefit of the doubt for us to play like you're both town so we gotta clear that air fast or risk losing OR.

Also link me the game onsite that you got Even Night Cop on mafia side so I can see what fucking madness that was.

[Hawk]

In any other game I’d be lynching hawk for suggesting we lynch a PR and a vig should shoot on Night 1 haha but it does actually make sense, oh god

Trust me I don't like it either... but the way the two of them claimed it's too hard to give them the benefit of the doubt... Both claimed out of anger before anyone put them close to daylynch...

[Hawk]

Can I get a vote count?

I would like everyone currently not voting mulch or wanting to vote outside of mulch to chime in.

Honestly lynching mulch today feels very much like some kind of corner case scenario policy lynch. Like the checklist is, anti-town, Low contributions to the game due to anger or apathy, sus' d by a majority of town, claimed with less than 3 votes on him.

I want to give mulch the benefit of the doubt. So I would like to not lynch him today if possible. I will lynch him if its a choice between that and a NL.

[Hawk]

Why those two?

[Hawk]

Happy New Years everyone!! I'll be out of topic most of the day.

@BuJaber 812. You said deadline been reached not hammer or majority. We have 1 more day are you misreading it or did you mean something else?

I'm fine with Mulch lynch if that's what we have to do.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Mulch

Cya guys

I never put myself to L-1 at scum

I wasn't even sure if I hammered myself

I'm confirmed town now and votes on me are a scumclaim

VOTE: Acorn

Uhhh you did.... lol
Flailing he's not going to be helpful for town anymore :/

VOTE: Mulch

[Hawk]

Scum putting themeslves to L-1 while they think they hammered themselves is gamethrowing

Unless you thinnk I'm gamethrowing scum, I'm confirmed town

Everything you've done up until now has been logical fallacies or based off an assumption that you're telling the truth purely to "confirm" you as town. that's not good town play and I'm tired of playing this game with you mulch I've been more than reasonable for days now...

[Hawk]

I'll iso icryon when I get the chance today. If you do flip town I'll definitely dive deeper on 2iAM I already didn't like his play along with psychos so...

[Hawk]

Fair enough, but it's reasonable to assume that there are other power roles as well that haven't been claimed.

hang on, a minute ago, vig + cop was a lot of power, now you think there could be more?!

This is basically a scumslip

How is it a scumslip? I'm going to go through Acryons ISO so I'm unvoting for now.

[Hawk]

UNVOTE:

Ack I had more to say but I'll just do that in my acryon iso post.

[Hawk]

Votecount 1.3

Mulch(4)

~ acryon, TwoInAMillion, Sky_Paladin, Mulch

PsykoSavant(2)

~ rb, Jodaxq

TwoInAMillion(1)

~ PsykoSavant

profii(1)

~ Derpy Hooves

BuJaber(1)

~ Hawk


Not Voting (2): BuJaber, profii

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-01-02 21:00:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

Performed 34 calls in 6 seconds. With an average of 0.205382352941176 seconds per call.
<<Flavor of first stuff coming later>>

BuJaber stop being dumb we have a day and some hours left.

Acryon, Bujaber, and Psycho have kinda danced around the idea of lynches most of the day not taking any firm stances. If we're lynching outside of Mulch I'm fine with any of these.

Come on guys let's use this last little bit of time.

VOTE: BuJaber

[Hawk]

UNVOTE: Give me a bit. God damnit I thought you might be odd night PR with that second insistence on no lynch... this game is odd and scum must be stacked.

[Hawk]

I don't like the preflip associatives... if DH shoots Mulch that sorts itself out... We can't actually confirm BuJabers role.... And he will live through the night... not sure why he played the way he did instead of stupid aggressive to draw a NK... would have been a lot better...

Yeah I'm not sure I'm buying the play.

VOTE: Bujaber

[Hawk]

I would like everybody to take a look at what I posted in 923.

In this post I ask BuJaber to explain how he 'knew' Mulch was roled (the reason he voted Profii) before Mulch had crumbed or made his claim.

To me it looks like a straight up scum slip of BuJaber outing his buddy by accident, and this explains Mulch's subsequent meltdown - he knew the only way to save the team was to distract players from looking at BuJaber.

Like, have I missed some obvious post before then that Monkey or Mulch had indicated they were roled? Thoughts?

Brilliant

This man is fucking brilliant

Give a round of applause

What a BRILLIANT deduction
GG WP

GGGG

GGG
G
G
G

/s

All of my why....

Seriously if you have a problem with it point it out don't be an ass...

[Hawk]

If Sky's tally is accurate, that was hammer.

Profil was voting Bujaber already.

Glad someone called Sky out cause. More mad all I got from mulch was can you blame me rather than acknowledgement that Sky was entirely wrong because of an honest mistake.

Sky now believes the claims.... Mulch is probably still getting shot... can't be certain but if he is that sorts some stuff... not sure how odd night commuter and even night cop work well together for town but it's fine.

VOTE: Psycho Lets move this along if we're not lynching claimed PRs...

[Hawk]

Really?!?! RB and Acryon and not Jodaxq?? who has been quietly sitting not really contributing actual reads just parroting and voting.

Still Psycho is fine with me.

Pedit: A few pages back 2iAM

[Hawk]

And since it's L-1 I'm used to that being claim time.. so I'm an odd night commuter.

Here's the claim.

[Hawk]

EBWOP - I was searching the thread for "daytalk" and your rules said there actually is "Day Talk" so ignore me, there is day talk aha

I was just about to quote it for you.

I like the points you made about acryon.

I wanted to prove you wrong about 2inam, so I read his ISO. I'm not so sure of my own read anymore. Not saying I think he's town now necessarily, but I need to think about this game a lot more. UNVOTE: 2inam

The reason why this is hard is because I still am leaning town for both of them. If I thought one or both are scum I'd just vote for one of them. So basically I'm suggesting no lynch because in case I am wrong I want to minimize town casualties while also putting DH's claim to the test. Of course it's not a perfect test but it is good enough and will make me a lot more confident in what we should do D2 onwards, because if 2 people including mulch die I will believe DH 100% and they would not be fighting anymore. If only mulch dies and nobody else it doesn't mean DH was lying for sure but it makes it a lot more likely so I would be voting DH day 2 in this scenario. Same with if someone else dies but not mulch. The only possibility that would be harder to analyze wpuld be if 2 people are killed but not mulch, but in this scenario I think DH would still be insta lynch day 2. But I find this scenario the least likely.

Your plan is good only if 1) other people are willing to vote for acryon (or someone other than DH/mulch) and 2) we actually lynch scum.

I am happy trusting your and my read on acryon and taking that risk because mafia requires taking risks and trusting your instincts, but if we're talking safest strategy to maximize winning potential I think we have to no lynch.

Let's see what others think.

^^^ Me commenting on acryon. (Is this what you consider ignoring?)

Read my ISO. Literally never wavered from my position that Mulch/DH are scum.

Literally thought 2inam was scum until only very recently where I put him back to nullread.

This type of blatant lying makes me feel like Bujaber is scum... Never wavered. Voted Psycho all day. Said don't fucking touch PRs...

God I wish we could just lynch you here. Also Mulch pretty quickly believed your claim and didn't just point out Skys honest mistake instead hyperboled his reaction.

[Hawk]

I'm gonna say again, lynching is a bad move for town.

Not you too.... I swear to god... 4 PR d1

[Hawk]

Actually fuck it.

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't believe the claim. I also don't believe you're town. You're not following the game very closely and I literally had to double check you at one point mention Mulch being odd night rolecop when he claimed even night. How as town and a PR are you not paying attention to the game more. You've played like awkward passive Lynch bait which is good for PR if you don't want to get shot but you're an odd night self protecting Townie.... You could have been all up in people's faces but you weren't.

Im just not buying it and we are to close to day end

[Hawk]

No I think Sky is off the wagon so L-2?

[Hawk]

I don't want a no lynch so I'll vote whoever buy I'm not believing BuJabers claim... But lynching outside of it is fine too so long as we don't completely waste our day.

[Hawk]

Nice shot Derpy. Ugh shoulda just lynched him my bad. I let my belief get in the way.

Townblock: Myself, Derpy, 2iAM.

Anyone actually think that 2iAM was bussing that hard d1?? I don't believe it.

[Hawk]

So we have another mason and an odd night commuter. Mulch was a ninja so is it safe to assume we have a tracker of some sort??

[Hawk]

Bleh. Psychos 1078 was an easy conclusion. Not sure if AI. Not a pointing it out and voting also feels like an easy conclusion. One scum here very doubtful both are same alignment...

Just feels odd

[Hawk]

How does Jodaxq get autocorrected to not...

[Hawk]

Hmmmm.... VOTE: Psycho

Acryon was on Mulch so was Profil... Psycho never voted so he was either pocketed or not willing to visa.

He susd HEM but not mulch.

[Hawk]

Also that's L-2

[Hawk]

Can we please not lynch the cop until we have some evidence that counters Mulch's claim (i.e. come day 3)?
DH get your head out of your tunnel, don't shoot Mulch. Or if you do and he flips town, I hope you finally realize how shitty your gameplay is.
I honestly don't know how many more times I have to say this, but LYNCH TIAM.

Extension is a bad idea. No lynch is even worse. I’d like to have a flip to analyze even if it means I have to begrudgingly vote Mulch. Still think Bujaber or TIAM are better votes if anyone is with me I’d like to flip one of them.
If we extend mods please replace me, I can’t read more of this eye bleed.

Hmmmm.... VOTE: Psycho

Acryon was on Mulch so was Profil... Psycho never voted so he was either pocketed or not willing to visa.

He susd HEM but not mulch.

I washed my hands of the back and forth between mulch and derpy and decided that Derpy shooting Mulch was going to give us an answer one way or another. I was skeptical of the claim because of the reason I pointed out (we’d have no way to confirm until D3), but was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah no. Die Scum.

[Hawk]

*sigh* not scum, I’m the Doctor. I protected myself last night because we outed myself, Bu, and Mulch as PR’s. After Bu’s lynch and Mulch probably getting shot by Derpy, I figured I would be the NK target so I protected me.

Why would you protect yourself?? in what world were you the NK??

Also nobody putted your claim you literally just kept saying lynching you would be bad for town. Which you also said at the end of the day to what draw a NK? Sky or Derpy were much better targets than yourself...

[Hawk]

VOTE: psycho

Normal guidelines don’t allow self protection

Normal Guidelines
A Doctor that cannot self-target and protects their target from one kill is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Mafia Doctor in a Normal game does not return a guilty result to a Gunsmith (unless it is part of a Jack of All Trades), although this may be different in Theme games, depending on the moderator's interpretation. A Doctor cannot stop a Strongman from committing a kill, nor a Weak role from dying due to targeting anti-town. Protection would also fail if targeting a Macho or Ascetic role, although the Doctor should not be told if this happens, just like if they were blocked.

Pulled straight from the wiki. My bet is he is a JoAT or a strongman and assumes that if he is here there is a doctor. Also this heavily smells like 3 scum team or 3rd partt cause claiming doc there is suicide for scum but Derpy isn't wrong.

[Hawk]

VOTE: psycho

Normal guidelines don’t allow self protection

Normal Guidelines
A Doctor that cannot self-target and protects their target from one kill is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Mafia Doctor in a Normal game does not return a guilty result to a Gunsmith (unless it is part of a Jack of All Trades), although this may be different in Theme games, depending on the moderator's interpretation. A Doctor cannot stop a Strongman from committing a kill, nor a Weak role from dying due to targeting anti-town. Protection would also fail if targeting a Macho or Ascetic role, although the Doctor should not be told if this happens, just like if they were blocked.

Pulled straight from the wiki.

My bet is he is a JoAT or a strongman and assumes that if he is here there is a doctor.

Also this heavily smells like 3 scum team or 3rd partt cause claiming doc there is suicide for scum but Derpy isn't wrong.

This sounds like coaching...

I'm voting him why would I be coaching? Also scum have day chat don't they? I just vastly disagree with that claim. And hope he wasn't just lying about targeting himself for no reason...

Pedit: Fast hammer is fast.

[Hawk]

Suggesting he should reclaim JoaT.

I meant Mafia JoAT it's implied when I mention strongman.

[Hawk]

If there is a day 3.

You think it was 2v9? and not 2v1v8?

Like RB said I doubt it was 3v8 with a vig. But 2v9 with a one shot vig could be fine. That could have put us into what 2v6 at worst which I think is fair. and we had a commuter so we had some protection...

If psycho really is doc I'll be sad because that probably means Derpy is SK.

They had ninja so I'm guessing we had some sort of tracker watcher it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Hawk]

I think there will be a day 3

Do you think we were wrong about Psycho or do you think there's a 3rd party??

[Hawk]

3rd party seems reasonable.

Chances of Vig and 3rd party??

Watcher should watch a solid townlean probably not Derpy if this is scum and game doesn't end.

Tracker should just follow Derpy if this is scum and game doesn't end.

If this was Doc well fuck town let's go into d3 doing what we can :/

[Hawk]

Chances of Vig and 3rd party seems super low. Game would go by too quickly I think with possible 3 kills in a night.

Chances of Derpy being that 3P seems close to zero. I just can't imagine SK outing themselves to scum like that.

Well if Psycho flips scum and we go into d3 what happened N1 besides Derpy is SK??

sorry not super familiar with normal setups so I don't know how else it would get setup like that.

Derpy was a 1 shot vig... but yeah I guess 2v1v8 could have ended up with a 2v1v4 d2 with 4 NK between Vig scum and SK...

[Hawk]

3 NK** and a lynch.

[Hawk]

So Vig, Masons, Commuter, Tracker that's 5 town PR against 3 scum? Reasonable... but isnt it kind dangerous with the big.

We could drop to 5v3 d2 into a mylo situation and have no idea. we are in Mylo.

[Hawk]

my phone randomly likes to add periods and change words like vig...

[Hawk]

You're idiots. Scum deserves to win this one.

If you're town throw your damn reads out there and use your twilight don't just be salty about your claim

[Hawk]

Wait we won??

I somehow missed a game over PM or something lol.

I'm honestly surprised. Did anyone pick up me and Skys crumbs? Or did sky get shot n1 because he was so town. Honestly I tried to play s bit scummy near the end of d1 so we wouldn't get shot, but my crumb was probably obvious...

Also Derpy did you think you were getting shot? As 1shot vig claim really SK I might have not shot one time and hoped for some good luck. idk if that's the smartest play but.

[Hawk]

Okay just read the Mafia PT thread they didn't know I was mason till RB checked me. The ninja woulda fucked my mind with the setup.

Also to answer RB about why I thought doc flip made Derpy more likely SK. If I believed there was tracker then town either had.

Doc, Vig, Commuter, Tracker, double masons and it was only 2 VT and triple scum. Or 2 scum 1 3rd party that didn't shoot n1. oooooorrrr I believe that Derpy is SK.

You could have gotten me to lynch Derpy RB. After Psycho flipped Doc I thought he was SK because I thought we still had a tracker.

[Hawk]

Still would have been a town win I think so long as Derpy was always shooting RB cause I wouldn't have believed 1 shot vig and SK in an 11 player game, and unless everyone convinced me otherwise that I was crazy it would have been fine.

Pedit: A red Herring Derpy. Designed to fuck with me on his flip...

[Hawk]

yeah, not a fan of mods using these red herrings. so many people use setup speculation to game solve and it ends up fucking town over

Yeah seriously it hurt my brain sometimes thinking about this setup. It was bad enough we had 3 claims d1 and I knew that me and Skys were masons so I was like woah no one of these is bullshit. You said you wanted to shoot mulch and I believed 1-shot vig, double masons against odd night commuter, even night role cop.

So come d2 and we have a ninja flip making me believe there is a tracker now and psycho claims doc self heal and yeah... lots of fuckery for town.

[Hawk]

Here's my thoughts.

Now that i've had more time to read and catch up i'm still just as lost as ever. Of course i'm coming off a long hiatus so that could be part of it. Something about jodax stuck to multiple people so far including two people i was town leaning so i can see my vote going there. Anyway, i don't particularly like derpys claim it felt very odd but
i guess he's a very emotional player so benefit of the doubt. Maybe we should look into profil then?

You should never vote a town pr claim d1, or at least i wouldn't. Knowledge is power and knowing that i feel uneasy by his doubt. Seriously, i don't like this.

end thoughts.

Also for those too lazy to read the Mason thread here's my crumb.

Sky Mason spelled backwards with capital letters. I even went so far as to not capitalize my i's.