Why does town do so badly with the White Flag mechanic?

[chennisden]

good thing i picked the right read to sheep

thonk

[Ankamius]

having setups that encourage scum not to bus are heavily scumsided because towns tend to struggle with coming together without scum help, and usually town can manage it better after there's concrete information in the thread via scum deaths.

Doesn't that mean that scum could scumside more normal setups via simply not bussing?

(This might be true, of course, but if so it's a sad indictment of our current site meta.)

I legit think that would improve scum win rates yes

[RadiantCowbells]

need to bus smart. conventional thinking on when to bus is almost exactly wrong.

[chennisden]

how to be good as scum: dont roll scum

[Oversoul]

I wonder if any blatantly scumsided setups aren’t actually scumsided.

I think these are scumsided because of the lake of power roles. It seemed like the addition of power roles is to balance the inherent fact that town are more likely to lose. As scum, you can identify the players you can’t push and just get rid of them with a nk. Essentially, towns lose because they get burnt at both ends of the wick. The good townies get nk’ed and the bad townies get strung up.

[Oversoul]

having setups that encourage scum not to bus are heavily scumsided because towns tend to struggle with coming together without scum help, and usually town can manage it better after there's concrete information in the thread via scum deaths.

Doesn't that mean that scum could scumside more normal setups via simply not bussing?

(This might be true, of course, but if so it's a sad indictment of our current site meta.)

I legit think that would improve scum win rates yes

Have scum been losing more often than winning?

[Oversoul]

Is there any place that has overall statistics for the winrates, broken down by game size (micro, mini theme, mini normal, etc)?

[Ankamius]

having setups that encourage scum not to bus are heavily scumsided because towns tend to struggle with coming together without scum help, and usually town can manage it better after there's concrete information in the thread via scum deaths.

Doesn't that mean that scum could scumside more normal setups via simply not bussing?

(This might be true, of course, but if so it's a sad indictment of our current site meta.)

I legit think that would improve scum win rates yes

Have scum been losing more often than winning?

I'm ultimately not looking at win rates since I don't believe those are heavily indicative

I've noticed towns get coddled more and more over the years and I think that's made towns too reliant on setup info, because I've also noticed that towns have a tendency to fall apart on a dime in my scumgames... which also tends to be because of mechanics

I'm more looking for ways to scum to improve their play overall so that town has to play better to compete with that

[Oversoul]

So you’re saying town is getting colder in games other than the Flags and that’s why Flag gametypes are turning out to be scumsided?

[Ankamius]

i think 20 is probably wrong and that it's more because the games are mountainous and still allow scum to remove town's best player(s)

this is probably closest to my thoughts on that

higher scum concentration + emphasis that bussing is probably bad + no town power = scumsided

town has to outplay scum in dayplay to beat them, and that's generally not emphasized on this site over winning via mechanics

[chennisden]

ftr i prefer mountainous open setups with some sort of twist because

1) vanilla mountainous is boring and
2) relying on setup spec doesn't make me a better player

[RadiantCowbells]

I think people should start understanding that nightless games should ACTUALLY be nightless and people should stop taking the ability to kill as opposed to mislynch or fool strong townies for granted.

[chennisden]

i dunno

the whole point of bussing is to make yourself look better than other townies when your scum teammate goes down

but scum don't know how to make other townies look worse on their flip

[RadiantCowbells]

Scum should learn to do that.

[Oversoul]

Ank and rC should co-author a scum tactics book. Or just general theory book

[RadiantCowbells]

I wanna write a guide to town not scum

[Oversoul]

Don’t want all your secrets exposed?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think most of the advice that comes to mind for scum play is not useful for the vast majority of players

[Creature]

I think town does badly at like any setup with no PRs because they like rely too much on PRs and when there isn't they get dunked on.

See the current newbie setup.

[RadiantCowbells]

The first thing you want to learn to do is not get lynched without being forced as scum and learning that is a very individual journey learning what your tells are and what gets you lynched as both alignments and I can't help with that.

My advice would be more useful for people who are already very accomplished as scum.

[Shoshin]

I'm a terrible scum player so maybe don't listen to me but I think the first step to being better as scum is learning to sustain the same level of effort that you put in as town. I'm stuck at this stage at the moment.

[Shoshin]

I think town does badly at like any setup with no PRs because they like rely too much on PRs and when there isn't they get dunked on.

Depends on the players. I do better without PRs.

[Shoshin]

I think these non-PR games are a lot more fun personally. It reduces to the basics of scumhunting & manipulating, and exposes skill differences much more dramatically. As a result, the games might look much more one-sided, either in town or scum's favor. I don't think that means the game is inherently imbalanced to one side.

[RadiantCowbells]

I enjoy scumhunting on D1 and find the game gets a lot less fun after D1 in non-nightless games as either alignment.

[Oversoul]

How come you think?