Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Titus]

VOTE: Aronis

[Titus]

Yeah you were defending Aronis. He was whiteknighting. I asked TTH if there was support for a TSO townread and then looked myself.

A guy wanting any lynch on AD suddenly not wanting one on TSO is off.

There's nothing "misreppy" about doing my homework.

Nor is there any misrep in your calling your post on Aronis a defensr.

[Titus]

Your sarcasm isn't complete without a GIF or picture with an ironic caption, UT.

You're slacking.

UT's a grown man. I'm pretty sure he can handle a sarcasm without me.

Lols.

[Titus]

there's a certain amount of "I'm going to listen to Titus from now on!" that will happen the more people see you accurately read a game

I can tell you for sure that in my future games with you I'm going to be sheeping your reads to some extent

also I hate playing scum because when someone has an airtight case on you, it's like "well... I know... and I'm impressed by your deductions....but.... I'm gonna have to be an obstinate dick instead"

Sound familiar UT.

It sounds like to me you're not sheeping my reads at all but instead trying to shut down good thoughs.

[Titus]

Yeah there's no support for a TSO town in Aronis's ISO. He just says he won't vote TSO after pushing Dan because deadline. Not much difference between Dan and TSO as neither were around (although TSO was vla).

UT defending Aronis makes me feel better about an Aronis wagon.

Voting someone because another unflipped scumread of yours doesn't want them lynched is pretttty awful titus.

How? My biggest concerns with Aronis were lurker and lynchbait.

TTH blew up lurker only, which I verified.
UT blew up lynchbait with his defense.

If that was only it, I would get it but I did very TTH's case.

[Titus]

No. UT jumped on me AFTER I moved to Aronis.

[Titus]

VOTE: actiondan

Fairly happy with this lynch too. Oh wait, who am I kidding, it's page 113 on D1, I'm happy with any lynch.

VOTE: Aronis

Let's do this.

Yeah there's no support for a TSO townread in Aronis's ISO. He just says he won't vote TSO after pushing Dan because deadline. Not much difference between Dan and TSO as neither were around (although TSO was vla).

UT defending Aronis makes me feel better about an Aronis wagon.

VOTE: Aronis

fuck it

vote Titus

I'm tired of reading her scummy misrepping posts

The dissolving of espe wagon wasn't natural.

Also Titus is probably scum. Aronis seems like a mislynch like TSO was and both TTH and titus jumped on him while UT is on titus.

Really Vezok?

[Titus]

It's not a towntell but it's a strong indicator. I figure towntells by logical progression of actions. I highly doubt my townreads will change unless they act inconsistently.

We can disagree on theory and that will fuel you misreading me gamma. My reads are built around what actions I expect to occur.

So what do you think of Aronis?

[Titus]

I'm voting Aronis over UT because

1) Townblock endorsed
2) The case by TTH removed my concerns
3) Aronis is a larger wagon
4) Aronis giving some reads and opinions beyond let's get a lynch done is good
5) I am trying to work with my townreads/block. Oversoul and TTH I am both townreading. FFery has said Aronis is a good lynch. Mastina hasn't said Aronis is a bad lynch.


Only 2 really applies to UT.

[Titus]

Do you think Aronis is more likely to be scum than UT? (also why)

Not necessarily but they are both scumreads. UT is basically playing from his Uncouth playbook now that I called him out for being friendly and doing jackshit.

Aronis hasn't done much if anything but his behavior was different.

[Titus]

Do you think Aronis is more likely to be scum than UT? (also why)

Not necessarily but they are both scumreads. UT is basically playing from his Uncouth playbook now that I called him out for being friendly and doing jackshit.

is there an allergy to answering comparative questions that I didn't know about

yes or no please, if you personally had to lynch one of them and not the other which would it be.

I did. I said UT is scummier but that doesn't mean Aronis isn't scummy.

[Titus]

UT is town.
Titus is not.

I figured your slot would understand what I am doing more than anyone.

[Titus]

*blink* That post looks really fucking town.

Shit...

Given Singer's team, I'm not sure how frequently they would know

why

I'm usually misunderstood, but that's usually the shtick that people push. I am starting to doubt my scumread on her since there's no one there to feed her the basis for doubting a scumread on me. How could she know that but for being town?

But then I go back to her inconsistencies and I think, how on earth can she actually be town?

@Oversoul, how am I approaching negative utlity?

[Titus]

**that post by Singer

[Titus]

@Oversoul, why is Aronis a "vanity wagon"? It's (I think) Ffery endorsed and the second largest wagon.

[Titus]

@Oversoul,

Alright. Acknowledged. I'll try to be back in a few hours, trust Ffery and Mastina to lead to a better lynch this time and I'll respond to everything else then.

[Titus]

We are NOT going to waste our second lynch on another person like TSO. This means that Aronis is off the table for lynch today.
The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

"We're only lynching between these people because

I'm

scumreading them."
Titus, and now you?

Excuse me, this goes out to everyone in this game: Who the fuck do you people think you are?

No. We're not lynching Mastina because she's in my townreads. I'm willing to compromise. I'm just not lynching obvious town.

[Titus]

Sorry Oversoul...

[Titus]

Spoiler: Mastina quotes to explain a townread on Mastina

Actually, I'm an idiot.
I got that backwards.

Choice: Two

.

This

is the superior option, pretty sure.
Sorry.

I wouldn't put it past her to WIFOM everyone by not spending tokens on herself.

It was basically far, FAR more important to get the right games than the right alignment as far as I was concerned. Getting into THIS game was my request, because I've been playing extensively in Large Themes. As town, I typically either die early (this game, duh), or live long enough to give the scum a beating. I also figured that if I got scum, it would be a goldmine. I had my strategy all laid out. I had everything planned out. I didn't tell my team what it was in the off chance I got town (because I was feeling scum, just

feeling

it. Haha. THAT worked out well ) so that I could use it in a future game instead, but basically, I knew that if I did well as scum in THIS game, if I brought my A-game, then I wouldn't just be showing off to the members of this game--I'd be demonstrating, proudly, for the first time in a full year, the full extent of my scumgame...to the ENTIRETY of mafiascum, effectively: I'd have fooled not 16 players, but 64, almost all of them being big-name players.

...And then I not only drew town, but dead woman walking town.

@Bulba, how can you townread someone who has not posted?

By pretending he's me.




(Also, for the curious, yes, it is in fact 3 am as I post this. And no, I am not done with my site duties yet. And yes, I do get up at...oh, I believe tomorrow it's 10 AM. Might be 9, I forget; I'll figure it out when my alarm goes off. When I say I come when I can...I REALLY mean, I come when I can...and that the times I can come are frequently late at night, VERY late at night.)

You think Zar/Tammy is possible scum on scum? :V

Tammy

should

be the first person to tell you I'd be a fool

not

to consider it.

Do you have any reasons to suspect this based on reality rather then FUD paranoia?

Sort

-of.
Tammy could be scum.
Zar could be scum and has fairly decent chances of being scum.
I do not think their interactions are such where Tammy

must

be town if Zar is scum. I can, very easily, plausibly see this as scum-scum distancing. Do I think it is, no. Do I think it ISN'T, though, that is ALSO a no. It's a, "in the back of my mind" type thing, stronger than paranoia but weaker than actual proper suspicion, where I'll have my eye on it the entire time and will not pass judgement until I'm sure.

(Yes, I'm way back here.)

(6)

TellTaleHeart:

Titus, Empire, Tammy, Aronis, Marquis, vezokpiraka [L-4]
(1)

Bulbazak:

Gammagooey
(1)

GuyInFreezer:

ChannelDelibird
(1)

Tammy:

Espeonage
(1)

Aronis:

Bulbazak
(0)

Gammagooey:

(Bulbazak)

That TTH wagon looks bad.
I remember thinking vezok was town, so not going there, and Tammy I'm assuming at this point to just be town, but this is just a whole bunch of to me.

...Incidentally, the (1) voters aren't so great, either. Gamma's probtown but I'm not feeling a Bulba wagon; CDB's okay but I've got nuthin' on GIF, Esp I voted for good reason, and Bulba's not great though I'm at least

interested

in his Aronis vote. (His prior Gamma vote doesn't look good, though.)

Not Voting I cut out since, y'know, daystart.

Simply put, DV is on my team's list of expected nightkills, so detecting him is suspicious.

Is

that

it?

...Seriously?
THAT?
It?

Investigating Deas.Vail.



I'm sorry. Can't help it. Yeah, the TTH wagon is BS.

Can you please hit 1534??

There was nothing for me to say about it.

I think scum are scum; I don't think they're any more nor less likely to attack a player because of another scum doing the same if both are. Nor do I think they would plan an attack--it's theoretically possible, but not exactly probable. That doesn't mean they haven't done the attack, though.

For those who don't get it, yes, I am saying Esp is scum, like Toon was scum. The push there seems good.
The push on TTH is horrible, and yes, Bulb is right in his reasoning, too. (Incidentally, it increases the townread there, so IF--and this is becoming an increasingly HUGE if--Bulb's scum, his defense is a smart one.) His reasoning is (almost) my reasoning. The push is just bad, and the people that supported the wagon are mostly bad.

(7)

TellTaleHeart:

Titus,

Empire

,

Tammy

,

Aronis, Marquis

,

vezokpiraka

, Cheetory6

(ChannelDelibrd)

[L-3]

Yeah, two scum max.

(10)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail

, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6, Titus,

vezokpiraka

, GuyInFreezer, Aronis,

Tammy

, T S O
Also, the following people tried to cast bane votes on me after the hammer: CDB, UT

This, incidentally, is the strongest proof I have that my reads aren't perfect. Gamma's a townread, Shadow's getting a pass, Cheet looks town enough, I'm not interested in pursuing Titus, so really that leaves GIF, Aronis (who was a townread but I admit Bulba's sparked my interest in) and TSO for there to be scum aside from DV.

Not the best of odds.
I mean, logically, it makes no sense for there to be only one scum on the wagon.
But that's what my gut says.

Or that if there is a second, it's GIF. But that's just POE on thinking not-Aronis and not-TSO and not-the-people-I'm-passing. Thus the one. (Gut.)

@TTH, I've quoted selected posts from Mastina's ISO here that look town to me. She looks town because I see the same fucking thought process. Given how wierd and awkward I am (let's be face it, I'll never be a cool kid) but the thought process is my own. I don't see how Mastina can fake my thought process given the fact that my opinion is not that of consensus.

Post 1: Post 1 reads similarly to what I'd do if I made a theory mistake. Well my bad. Correct and move on.

Post 2: This reads like genuine motivation for this game. I wanted to get into this game to prove to the best players of mafiascum my being an asset to town. Yes, very ego motivated reason. I am that way and so is Mastina. The fact she says this is pretty town.

Post 3: She's encouraging me to think about what's said as much as what isn't said at all. She didn't try to reach back in Bulba's ISO for a reason, which would benefit her much better as scum.

Post 4: This is a town waffle. This interaction is wierd but I can't figure out why. It's not waffling from the presumption something's off there.

The rest few posts focus more on wagon analysis, which is exactly how I was seeing the wagons but for the numbers of expected scum. I don't really look for an "expected number" but an expected vote relationship. Her reaction in comparing the TTH wagon to the Bulba wagon makes sense.

The last post says, hey my reads aren't perfect and the empirical data says as much. I'm taking it in and redoing the analysis.


I don't see anything that's faked at all. Mastina's good scum, but you can't fake my wavelength.


So yeah I don't care if I'm annoying Oversoul by posting. I'm going to try to make this a quality post to explain to you

why

Mastina is obvious town from my perspective.

[Titus]

VOTE: UT

Yeehaw! Let's do it.

TTH, everyone's reads are self-centered. Nothing about my Mastina read is superficial. So I'm not going to take that as an insult.

[Titus]

Singer, let's see. Tomorrow for FFery's sake, if we can work out our differences. I liked your recent posting. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on Shadoweh, but can you talk a bit more on CDB. That read I'm kinda iffy on. Just put it point by point.

[Titus]

@Oversoul, Sorry for this being shorter, but I do want you to know why my posting changed to favor this style, so maybe you understand me better. I used to make longer, more frequent walls. I found they were tuned out for being too wordy, or otherwise hated. I gravitated towards a more real time reactionary post style that is actually more popular on other mafia sites. Plus, if I'm replying to people in real time, it gives me some ability to label what they are feeling (but I don't exactly have a method of figuring out

why

yet as many people know). I know I've been engaging with more theory talk with FFery and others don't like it, but I feel many people just don't get me when I'm trying to work with them. You don't know how many times I've just wanted to rage at Cheetory and say stop confbiasing you [insert insulting title here]. Plus, I have no idea what the fuck GiF is doing any more which makes it really hard to work with him. If you could see a method of helping me work with GiF better, I'd appreciate it. :nod:

@FFery, Same to you. If you see a method of me working better with GiF, that would be great. I feel like I bungled some shit up by focusing so much on ika. I kinda know ika so I know that GiF is town through ika but I don't think I'm really good at working with GiF. Like at all. We've played a handful of games together but I'm not sure if we've ever been on the same side beyond this game, much less the same wavelength. I'd ask GiF but I don't think GiF's even talking to me and I don't know why.

[Titus]

I've already ctrl+a+del about seven snarky responses to that

I don't know a way to respond to that which isn't unnecessarily rude

actually, nacho used "unnecessarily" rather than "uncharacteristically" in his post.

I don't want to be wrong about you. But it feels kind of odd that you had no problem whatsoever with the TSO lynch at the time, but are now calling me butthurt when I'm looking at you.

FFery, the amount of uncharacteristic hostility to me looking into TSO's reads suggests to me that he was right somewhere. Yet, TSO is more of an emotional player. Arguendo, suppose I'm right and TSO was right

somewhere

how should I look in divining his correct read?

[Titus]

I'll try again.

I'm supposing TSO had a right scumread somewhere.
TSO is an emotional player.
I am terrible at it.
You are better.

What standard do you use in determining TSO's reads as accurate or not?

[Titus]

I'll try again.

I'm supposing TSO had a right scumread somewhere.
TSO is an emotional player.
I am terrible at it.
You are better.

What standard do you use in determining TSO's reads as accurate or not?

IME TSO's townreads are usually better than his scumreads in the early game. Given how far behind he was, I have doubts about scumread accuracy.

Ok, well that's still consistent with my theory that people don't want me looking into TSO's reads. How do you determine which of his townreads are accurate? I'll start that process so it'll keep me busy so I'm not posting as much and it will help me reorganize my thoughts so you can corrall people into the lynch you want.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: UT

God, really FFery.. please no flashbacks...this game reminds me of that game and that was literally the most frustrating game ever.

[Titus]

Singer, let's see. Tomorrow for FFery's sake, if we can work out our differences. I liked your recent posting. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on Shadoweh, but can you talk a bit more on CDB. That read I'm kinda iffy on. Just put it point by point.

Singer please.

[Titus]

@FFery, There's scum on my wagon. There has to be. At least you Shadoweh and Mastina have publicly said you won't vote for me. Yet my wagon is the only one getting traction. Sounds like a safe place to ride things out.

@Singer, If you think I am being emotional now, pick any other ISO on any other game I am in. This is tame. How emotional I get is indicative of my investiment level usually unless holding back rage tears and anger and I cannot even get drunk to deal with this.

[Titus]

*am in = was in.

Cannot talk about ongoing.

[Titus]

I will figure out a way to tell ika but it will be a convoluted crumb that I figure out in the morning.

GiF have you pretty much ignored the fact I am trying to play nice with people? Yelling has not accomplished my goals at all in prior games so why should I do it here when three other people depend on me at least trying to play well with others.

[Titus]

Town

and why are you scumreading titus?

I think town Titus would've done more than "what the hell".

Also ika wants to know your sign, titus.

"what the hell" in reaction to your vote?

why did you vote her?

My guess was he didn't understand I had already crumbed TSO was not blade so my revelation came as a surprise.

[Titus]

I crumbed it in a manner only ika would get.

[Titus]

Of course that's the only thing I can think of and that's a stretch.

[Titus]

Town

and why are you scumreading titus?

I think town Titus would've done more than "what the hell".

Also ika wants to know your sign, titus.

"what the hell" in reaction to your vote?

why did you vote her?

Read uncertainty.

Ask ika how well read certainty Day 1 has worked out for me.

Ask ika if I want to treat others like I want to be treated.

I want others to listen to me so I am listening to them. Particularly FFery on Singer.

Ika has told me not to act like I got everything figured out. Now he's bitching bc I am showing that humility. God.

[Titus]

You really want to give your sign to another player?

@Titus btw

Yes. I am that sure GiF is town and if ika actually bothers to interpret my crumbs then we can talk freely.

[Titus]

AD, Optimism has nothing to do with it. I am actually quite pessimistic.

[Titus]

I am stuck between being an uncaring asshole repeating the same mistakes to appear genuine or trying to listen to people and being a mislynch.

[Titus]

VOTE: CDB

Can we give FFery the one day she wants?

[Titus]

I don't think you get it titus
My posts after tso lynch is all on me, sans ika asking your sign.

Then fucking talk to him. Please.

[Titus]

Oh and a start for ika for crumbing my sign. Remember the Dark Lord Watches over all of us.

[Titus]

@GiF, Huh? I am trying to get along with the three of you.

Here try this for ika.

Use my sign to make KK's flavor where he was the day ender.

[Titus]

Well yeah I have already expressed hoe I felt you've been ignoring me so I am can talk to a brick or work with conftown. Literally everything I have done is trying to work with you and protect you. I may suck at it but you should see it. You have been my certain read.

[Titus]

I literally asked them for how to work with you because the harder I try, the less I get.

[Titus]

You were waffling on me before voting me I think.

[Titus]

I am out. I will be here tomorrow to see if ika got my crumbs.

[Titus]

Also, I don't know how you'd expect to work together with ika when you're not being your true self.

Revert to your old playstyle. Drop this "nice person" shit.

I am being the real me. My reads are real. The desire to be a better town is real. The fact that I am getting scumread by one of thepeople I am taking advice from for taking his advice hurts.

If the choice is that I can never improve and make the game less enjoyable for all or make this game achore for myself defending my attempts to foster a town that works together. I will take making the game a chore for myself. Everytime.

So, request denied. Fuck you.

[Titus]

@Chetory,

That's an awfully long wall to say I am not scumhunting. Generally, the more words you must use to prove the absence of something, the less it is actually true. Yes I have been working on being a team player. It's my greatest weakness. Yet, you just dismissing what I am doing as not scumhunting is asinine. You saw that interaction with Espy where I told him what I needed from him. I am giving him the opportunity ti deliver on what I am telling him that town him does. My perception of his scumhunting.

You have just dismissed everything I have been doing and focused on what I have been most vocal about. Have you even considered asking me who my reads are? No. That might disprove the theory you've been pushing. You might be surprised.

[Titus]

How do you perceive me to scumhunt?

[Titus]

Go study. Come back with fresh eyes. It's not the end of the world to take some time away.

The fact you don't know my reads is because you are not listening to my posts. You're ignoring and dismissing them.

It's pretty obvious that I'm scumreading UT and Aronis pretty hard for instance. The former because UT has done jackshit. He still has despite "wanting me to be town". I don't care. If he wants to work with me, I need to see some dialogue that remotely resembles scumhunting. Aronis is a scumread because I really liked TTH's case on Aronis showing it was more than lurking.

CDB and Espeonage are weak scumreads. CDB I didn't like the GiF push early, it just didn't sit right with me. That's more of a gut thing that I documented. Espeonage is a weak scumread because I'm not seeing what I expect to see out of Espeonage when he's town. He said I'm using a bad game to compare with so I'm a little bit more open to giving him more time to compare. Singer is still a scumread but I'm trying because FFery really thinks Singer is town.

I'm not going to yell, but the sheer volume of my posts allows me to engage people in real time. It's harder to fake shit when you're having to post your thoughts as they come into your head.

[Titus]

@UT, I am not voting a lynch not endorsed by FFery because it has zero chance of going through given how scum have decimated my credibility.

@Gamma, That fucking hurts. Maybe you should try looking from a different perspective.

@GiF, Possibly. Pushing on someone I know to be town will look suspect. The fact his push has been all but abandoned because it's not popular is alarming.

[Titus]

@Mastina, Can you join me on CDB, It's FFery endorsed atm. CDB has not felt extremely townie and I would like to asses his reaction to being wagoned to get a more solid read on him.

[Titus]

@Gamma, That fucking hurts. Maybe you should try looking from a different perspective.

don't get me wrong, i like you as a person

but as a mafia player you seem to have very little coherent focus while playing and it makes you incredibly unreadable to me.

Hyper focus early on is actually not ideal play (not saying I haven't done this) but the first stage of mafia play is about getting information and getting people to talk much more so than being right. If town talk, it makes us easier to identify to each other. If scum talk, they give information about who their partners are.

Now, if you're meaning focus as in clarity (rather than selective responding), that's something I struggle with. Alcohol generally helps slow my mental capacity down but I read and process about 5 trains of thought at once naturally. I'm not wired like everyone else and I know that. I will literally walk you thought

how

to read me if you just engage me. It's not specific behaviors that you're looking for to determine the difference between town and scum when dealing with me. Particularly in a theme game, you reveal me as town or out me as scum based on what I know and the scenario like that, not how I articulate it.

My town scenarios naturally have methods (that look ridiculous to me at the time) but can turn out to be false. My scum scenarios tend to be tighter because I don't care to be wrong. Being wrong is a hit to credibility. I generally don't reveal information fast as scum, because that helps solve the puzzle, unless that information creates an impression of something vital and untrue. For instance, take Butcher. I revealed Reck visited really early because I knew the most logical explanation was Reck was opposed to me and injected me with something bad. It created a misleading result. I held back that I was a jailkeeper for obvious reasons because I could push that TF was a scum/evil tracker because there was no way the game should have devolved to follow the cop. I'm still annoyed about that.

Compare to that InuYasha game. I revealed that I was ascetic soon after YnB claimed friendly neighbor (although indirectly at first) because I didn't want her to visit me and then say her shot was garbage because I thought she was scum.

FMPOV, mafia is a game of information, behavior is a part but over relied on. Narratives tell a totally different side of things. What people push still has importance despite

how

they say it.

[Titus]

Spoiler: CDB quotes

Oh, hey, speaking of my catch-up, GiF never got back to me about this. I think he should.

I won't pretend to have read more than my own entry in that list and the two at the bottom for now, but I'll definitely be coming back to it later.

Oh, hey, speaking of my catch-up, GiF never got back to me about this. I think he should.

I won't pretend to have read more than my own entry in that list and the two at the bottom for now, but I'll definitely be coming back to it later.

I missed it.

And?

Ffery, I'd been holding off on your word as I'd hoped that you would nominate a shortlist of three or something, as some of us were talking about, rather than homing in on one person specifically, so as to make scum decide within your shortlist to get more choices on record. However, seeing as enough people have just ignored you altogether, I guess we arrive at a similar point.

Boon: vezok

because the confirmed town wants me to. My read on vezok is slightly town now, anyway.

While I'm relaying opinions from the Black Goo, CES argues that we should use the Bane on a player who is hard to read (vezok is his example). This is because it's harder to judge scumminess on Day 1 before we see how any flips go and it would allow us to use investigative abilities on them - meanwhile, if scum kill them, we don't lose somebody we were quickly townreading. By avoiding a Bane on the No.1 scummiest player, too, we avoid complicating their potential lynch on Major Day 1. Again, I'm pretty much sold on his argument, especially the last part - I think Baning people who we intend to lynch immediately is a waste, though acknowledging that that could change later depending on what future Banes involve.

UnBane: Titus
Bane: vezok

I might pick somebody else later but I'm pretty sure that I don't want to Bane Titus, whom I'm reading as town.

Also reading Tammy as probably town but I don't know the dynamics between her, Zar, Empire etc. well enough to say that I scumread Zar as an extension of townreading Tammy.

Sure, OK, let's just get on with it.

Unbane: vezok
Bane: Bulbazak

FFery should pick the boon person or the boon pool we vote in. We know scum cannot influence uf she picks directly.

Ffery picking a pool from which we Boon is a good idea. I would prefer to have some influence in choosing from within that subset as we know that town vastly outnumbers scum.

That's the answer for both of your questions.

How did you manage to read so little of me? I mean, you clearly missed multiple posts. What was the point of the iso if you weren't going to read all of it?

What is your read on me at the moment?

CDB gives me bad vibes because I am 95% sure his votes on towI get he has to do his own investigation and shoving GiF as town is really antitown since I cannot prove it.

While I think that you're town, I don't agree with your read on a player who has the third-most posts in the game while still making very little impact on anything at all, as well as the things that are pinging me that I've mentioned. You're entitled to your read but, when you talk about it being based on ika, a player who is not in this game (and please, GiF, don't bring him in here), that does not make me drop everything to agree with it.

And both he and I want to tell GiF that he's not allowed to swap with ika.

I have focused here on CDB's reads on two players that make me uncomfortable: Vezok and GiF. Both of these reads were based on some form of lurking. Vezok's was just outright false based on my perspective at the time and now. He also says GiF is a scum because his many posts are not memorable. There's 20 players and play focused on around forming town coalitions. Someone is going to not be memorable. Is that a bad thing? No. He ignores that some people do not care to be memorable.

CDB starts with Vezok as scum but lurking. I refute. He persists. Then, when the conftown wants Vezok baned... suddenly Vezok's town. It's uncomfortably awkward. #981 is wierd. FFery picking a pool but us having some influence is good, because town vastly outnumber scum. What? If Ffery made the sole pick, we would know there's 100% town influence and 0% scum influence so what's the point behind town having more influence.

CDB's GiF read focus on him not being present. Common sense says that some people hunt differently where they don't need to be at the forefront. That's literally all there is to his GiF post and the fact he missed a question awhile ago. There's no teeth there at all. He also drops it when facing any sort of resistance. The resistance to having ika here when the game is demotivated and ika can obvtown himself quite well are also awkward to me. Hell, I should be the only one objecting to an ika influence but I won't cuz GiF's town.

There's no response from CDB regarding half the players. His reads are nearly untrackable. He doesn't comment on things that might cause him to change his reads. Overall, his strongest two expressed reads are the most difficult for me to comprehend at all.

[Titus]

@Vezok, Wow...I never even implied he was scum with you just that his progression on you was off.

@Singer, The response was to limit spam. The entire conversation with multiple participants was off course. If I was warming you up, why cut you off?

As for the never wrong thing, shut up about things you know nothing about. I tild Ffery I was never wrong on Egg in Uncouyh and she raked me over the coals for it. Forgive me for showing a little empathy and trying to work with you because yeah she thinks we are both town. Maybe you could do the same.

Yes I use meta for personality and hoe people think. I use it to explain how I think because no one gets me. It's frustrating as hell.

Now I am going to ask you to stop scumreading me for being a decent person. If you cannot take an olive branch when I offer it, I will smash it.

[Titus]

1) I admit it because it explains my crumbs to GiF and I know GiF is town. Scum have four players detecting. Getting GiF signs is a good idea. No, I'm NOT explaining beyond that and that is pushing it. So yes, I casually admitted it because I didn't want it to be a big deal. Plus, if we know the signs of the dead players it may help with solving the signs of living ones.
2) ika was townreading me early and is not now. The point is moot though. If you think I'm town, you think GiF is town or that I am really fucking easy to fool. Period.

@Bulba, I admit, I don't exactly orchestrate and think about how Vezok could be handled with a PR as that's not my job. Plus, I don't think any game can turn into the follow the cop anyway.

@Singer, I'll read your post more when I'm not pissed at you but no I don't see how you find someone reaching out to you as scummy especially when known town asked for that.

[Titus]

Zzzzzz.
GiF also unvoted and the amount of leaderResistance to the wagon makes me feel like it's probably just not going to happen and I don't like the idea of strongarming the entire game by forcing a Titus vote that people who have more experience with Titus than me are saying is awful.

My gut feels pretty good about scumTitus, but I've seen people be super convinced about Titus being scum and being wrong. I don't feel like the potential benefits of hardpushing this lynch through and hoping that I'm on the mark is worth the huge negative energy it would create if I ended up being wrong and I forced everyone to join me by voteparking. Titus is potentially an asset lategame if she's town and she's been very active and up to date. I think she's a lot more likely to be scum than not, but like.. if I'm wrong I'm going to feel like a huge asshole and I don't really want to deal with the heat on a personal level if I'm wrong at the moment.

I think ffery and mastin [who I'm really hoping is town] are fallible and could be wrong, but they both realistically have more experience with Titus than I do. I don't have teammates backing me up in this game. I'm in the middle of my exams. I'm not in the best mindset for things right now. Please excuse me if I'm starting to feel unsure/hesitant to bare the burden of a potential mislynch on someone like Titus. q.q

I like this. That makes me feel a lot better about trying to improve day 1. I suck at day 1. I make no bones about that. We do have a fair amount of negative energy, but this also gives us some things to work from and some things for me to look into tomorrow. I think at this point we could all use a bit of cooling off and coming in with a fresh perspective. Maybe you'll still see me the same way, maybe you won't. There are things people want me to review as well (like my scumread on Singer). I don't believe you're scumreading her, so if we could talk about her actions tomorrow (minus those that center on me), that might be a good way to start.

[Titus]

@CDB, Response to 3640 please.

[Titus]

Who the hell is Victor?

[Titus]

I guess I'll have to address it if no other wagons have formed by the time I get back later, singer ... do you have a particular post or two that best sum it up? I did read your Shadoweh case btw, thought it was relatively unexciting despite my feelings on that slot.

My interpretation: Please make a better Shadoweh case so we can mislynch her.

[Titus]

@Singer, Yes, I'm not commenting on your comments regarding Viktor because

I don't even know what you're saying

. So rather than dodge my question, why not tell me who the hell he is so I can contribute?

[Titus]

Hmm Tracker, detected someone likely to be killed ..sounds like scum tracker.

[Titus]

Blech. So tired. Sorry I misread.

[Titus]

fair

i think there are probably about 2 scum in the pile of people that everyone's written off as not lynchable today. Who do you think is scum that has basically little or no chance of being lynched today?

Are you proposing a no lynch?

[Titus]

Gaming at 3 today. Off to play skyrim to try and wake up.

FFery, you have basically dismantled many wagons today. That readwall would be great so we can get a lynch.

[Titus]

Vote Espy

Peace out for now.

[Titus]

Ok 1 hour ish. Willing to vote where needed.

[Titus]

Espy at L minus 2. Thirty minutes.

[Titus]

I don't see why lock versus open is debated. I don't want to see more unmakes. Lock should stay.

Bane:Singer

This should be the bane unless TTH is full of shit.

[Titus]

Vote:Lock

Bulba, indeed. Ffery has asked us not to lynch Singer. Baning her gives her a day to recalibrate and Ffery doesn't roll over in her grave. If Singer is town, I would like her to reset. If Singer is town, with her reads, she'd likely hurt more than help.

[Titus]

Baning her gives her a day to recalibrate and Ffery doesn't roll over in her grave. If Singer is town, I would like her to reset. If Singer is town, with her reads, she'd likely hurt more than help.

How is any of this solved by baneing her?

Well she's dumb town or scum. Either way, I would like her not to be acting.

[Titus]

@Singer, These roles are not normal. I got no clue. GiF thought his role meant doctor. I do know that dumb town can hurt. Scumplay is about weaving a narrative. Dumb town play into that narrative and are mislynches.

[Titus]

@Espy, That type of what the fuck post is what I was looking for.

Why bane yourself?

Why lynch the people we don't want to act when we can bane them?

[Titus]

GiF thought his role meant doctor.

Where did he say anything like this, because I don't remember it?

He crumbed it to me. He said he was Lichtmann. That's our way of saying doctor. So I drew a shitton of attention to myself to try and protect GiF and let GiF lurk.

[Titus]

@Singer, wagon analysis is just confbias without flips. I am surprised you know I like wagon analysis if no one has informed you of my meta. I haven't played a lot of your team. Second, in a game this size, I would need one scum flip and day 4.

[Titus]

@Singer, Stop necroing shit.

I already explained why I left because of that statement. My VCA has never generated a confirmed clear that was not clear. Ffery raked me for that belief of never being wrong. I didn't want her to go through that because it hurt. I do scumread you but if I can contain you to give you a chance to rehabilitate.

[Titus]

@Espy, That type of what the fuck post is what I was looking for.

Why bane yourself?

Why lynch the people we don't want to act when we can bane them?

Acually why tf are you looking for posts by me that you don't understand?

Because that's an indicator for town you.

[Titus]

@Espy, That type of what the fuck post is what I was looking for.

Why bane yourself?

Why lynch the people we don't want to act when we can bane them?

Who do we not want to act?
A. People who we think are scum.

Would you rather have a roleblocked scum than a dead scum?
A. No.

This implies that you think you're scum. Otherwise, why self-bane?

I would want both. I don't realize it was a dichotomy.

[Titus]

GiF thought his role meant doctor.

Where did he say anything like this, because I don't remember it?

He crumbed it to me. He said he was Lichtmann. That's our way of saying doctor. So I drew a shitton of attention to myself to try and protect GiF and let GiF lurk.

For Gamma.

[Titus]

@Singer, My crumbs tend to be gibberish. He did something no one else would understand but for me and him. He drew a doctor and I mislynched him as confirmed town and he wanted to avoid it because he was townreading me.

I think you're scum or dumb for this game. Neither are good to have act.

@Espy, Banining you if you are town means we do not bane scum. Opportunity cost.

[Titus]

His flavor that game was Lichtmann.

[Titus]

@Singer, UT was familiar with Uncouth. He was scum in that game.

You clearly refuse to reevaluate. I may have sucked at protecting GiF but seriously are you trying to emulate the horrible gameplay I am trying to change Singer?

[Titus]

Dumb and Bad town are the same thing. I am not trying to go after you. I am trying to sort you. Believe me, you will know the difference.

UT knew the argument we had over never being wrong. He watched it. For Ffery to use never wrong. She means 100% never wrong. I haven't agreed with Ffery's read on you. I never have but I am trying to give you an opportunity to scumhunt. Yet all I see is posturing.

[Titus]

gut

if i looked back at her iso i could probably explain it but i am p. serious about not giving a shit right now

ask me again in 2 RL days if it still matters

Gamma, my gut says Mastina is one of the towniest towns. If you want to persuade, I need more.

[Titus]

Titus, same question.
Would appreciate it.

Marquis was a pretty hard townread for me. I don't imagine him as scum bringing up InuYasha as that is my most frustrating scumgame there. Getting me into a pissed off and frustrated mindset with him is not an effective method for being townread generally. It appears really genuine like he wanted to let me in to see his behavior. YnB was uberconfident even as they had an all town wagon on them Day 1 in InuYasha. FF hasn't softened that read. I would like to see more but overall, very likely town.

DeasVail had a strong opening which did not remind me of Gundamn Seed at all. Yet he's hardly posting at all which is alarming. He was a strong town earlier but its waining because of his absence here.

[Titus]

**My most frustrating town game

[Titus]

And would you mind taking another look at DV and telling me what you think of him if you haven't looked at him at all since earlygame at some point?

Tomorrow. It's my bed time and I need to look at it with fresh eyes.

[Titus]

I also want to see TTH and DV respond to the conftown stuff TTH was doing.

[Titus]

That whole conversation, yes.

Marquis was a head in YnB which I did not know prior to this game. It's an anon hydra but still should be easy enough to compare to. I do not see the arrogance and glibness that YnB had in this Marquis.

[Titus]

Seems so. I compare more to scum processes than town ones. Town ones should have deviations as this is like a eighty player game. This does look like Knight Errant, careful methodical and awkward under pressure.

Good night Cheetory.

@Singer, Bussing and tactics are changable. Without a massive effort personality is hard to change. So I look there as a baseline.

[Titus]

*Knight Errant Marquis aka Cho

[Titus]

@Vezok, Mastina's arrogant butthat's no reason to bane her. Love you Mastina (I am even more arrogant).

@CDB, GiF was unlynchable because I would have self sacrificed to not have GiF die, so GiF was most likely killed for being unlynchable town. I am speculating there though. If he was killed for more than that, then everyone knew I knew GiF's role and that's why I townread him. So a frame job would mean most likely scum out of the townblock.

[Titus]

Can you direct me to where you thought it was universally understood/believed that GiF was unlynchable? Or where it was obvious that everyone knew you knew his role? Who would be framing you from the town block and why do believe it's likely a frame targetting you?

Can you direct me to where you thought it was universally understood/believed that GiF was unlynchable?

My first reaction to that statement was "whuh?" but, actually, I totally believe that town-Titus would think GiF unlynchable by that logic. While that

might

also sound like a reason for scum-Titus to kill GiF, that post feels like it's coming from a town perspective (if Titus thinks this would be the obvious consequence of how she interacted with GiF, I don't know why she'd align herself so closely with him as scum, both to make him more "lynchable" in her head and to mean that a GiF kill doesn't immediately point to her).

something I meant to say in that post but forgot is that Titus would believably think that

everyone

would see GiF as unlynchable as she does even if I don't think it could be more obvious that a bunch of people think very very differently to her about a lot of things.

I know she hasn't responded to this point yet, but something just seriously feels off about Titus having this serious insight as to why GiF died 'to set her up' despite not really having any reason to believe that, and then not being able to offer how anyone would've known that only she would be able to pick up his breadcrumb? I get that I'm reading bleeding scum from everything she posts now, but even through rose colored glasses that's shady.

@Titus...can you also comment on my assertion about our misunderstanding with regards to meta, and elaborate on the point above as much as possible?

@Cheetory...you're right, it is! Womp womp.

@Singer, Really, it feels off that I don't immediately respond sometimes. I had work to do. I felt the thread for all of two seconds. The fact you cannot understand that I use meta for personality but not tactics is clear. So I don't get what you feel is so unclear nor how I can clarify.

As for GiF being unlynchable, I said that people would lynch me before GiF, I meant it. For all intents, GiF was unlynchable. I also outright stated we knew each others roles, so yes everyone knew I thought I knew GiF's role.

[Titus]

@Oversoul, TSO was a deadline wagon. We wanted two lynches. It was never going to happen if FFery and Mastina did not agree. They happened to agree on TSO who was a scumread of mine at the time. So I hopped on.

[Titus]

I don't know for certain. I have two theories. One is GiF was unlynchable because I would never let him be lynched. I said as much. It wasn't a "gee GiF's really town". It was a, me volunteering to be lynched in place of GiF. Mastina was not equally townread by me. Mastina was town by play but GiF was unquestionable town to me. Both are really town but GiF was moreso.

Conftown= Ffery, Town but for mod confirmation = GiF, Very Town, No plans to lynch = Tammy/Oversoul, Mastina

^^^^ That clear enough.

The other is scum setting me up. Also, why in god's name would scum kill me? I had a very long wagon that scum got on with little no consequence. Why would they kill me? Why do you think I'm confident? I'm not. You asked me why I thought scum would kill GiF. I gave possibilities. To pass that off as confidence is asinine. When I'm confident, most people tend to know that.

Repeatedly, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of my personality at best. So if you are actually trying to read me, pick any two games I have been in and survived awhile (one town and one scum) so you can get an idea of my personality and what I am like. I cannot explain how I think. No one can explain how they think. I know my thinking is different than others, so if you want a baseline (well frankly you need one), you should look at games where you know my alignment because this is the second time today that you have presumed things that are blatantly untrue (first, that I didn't push my own scumreads and second that I'm actually confident in why scum killed GiF over anyone else rather than responding to your questions). Until you do that, I don't see any further reason for us to talk, because you aren't hunting. You have your mind made up and you're just pushing.

If you want to talk, I'm here but that's not a one way where you just think I'm scum.

[Titus]

10-person scum team? What the heck Singer?

[Titus]

I brought up GiF's role solely because people wanted to know why I was reading GiF so hard. I don't believe in lying so that was why. I suggested scum setting me up because I was asked why scum would kill GiF. I don't feel strongly. I was speculating as to possible reasons.

It is a reason to kill GiF CDB. Burning mislynches is NOT something scum like to do early. Plus, if they try and fail, they have two unkillable townies, which isn't good. I'll admit, maybe I could have played it better as I'm not subtle when I'm blocking off mislynches but I did and scum killed an unlynchable townie.

[Titus]

@Singer, I am voting to bane you, but that doesn't mean I've given up trying. I'm giving you every courtesy solely because FFery thought you were town, but if you're not even going to try, then there's no point in me honoring what FFery wanted. I don't have a fundamental problem with logic this game. I have a fundamental problem with conveying it to you.

[Titus]

@Singer, Yesterday people were asking me why I townread GiF so hard. You asked me why I thought GiF was killed to fuel your tunnel vision. I can see that. It's absolutely a town perspective to put everything out on the table when I know it

provided that's good to reveal

. Also, many people have asked me to be more humble and look at what I can do to improve. So yes, I can see given GiF's flip that maybe scum thought he was a PR. Not doctor specifically (as they couldn't crack what role he had). By the way, your reads list sucks. We are not baning Mastina.

I've been over your inconsistencies in this thread before. Mastina, Shadoweh and I all happen to think you're scum (and that's the bottom). Yet, I know me and everyone here knows me that if I start walling cases, I hit a point of no return. Given there is a red flag with pushing your lynch (FFery never reading Empire wrong), I am going to take a step back and actually review what you do.

@Cheetory, I'm a little surprised by the lack of confirmation of TTH and DeasVail not being pissed about TTH's promise. TTH said something about his relationship with DV and being able to confirm himself as town. Generally, having knowledge about the setup is usually indicative of scum rather than town. If I'm understanding TTH's role right, he knows what a bane or a boon is. Given low numbers of scum, informing scum of banes and boons makes sense. So TTH actually goes down based on the reveal (although I know that's not a popular opinion). DV also goes down a few notches because I'd expect more of a reaction but it almost looks like he ignored it.

@All, the Mastina bane is terrible guys. Mastina's town.

[Titus]

I'll review it tomorrow Cheet but I, by default, am skeptical of any informed claim, particularly if a player uses it to confirm themselves. Could I be wrong, sure. I admit that, but I'm not going to put TTH in confirmed levels of town because they claimed a role that looks scummy to me. That doesn't even make sense. That's like saying someone claimed miller, and then saying they're confirmed town.

[Titus]

Where's the bastardness? Mafia is a game of information. If Mafia can share and give out selected information to control the game AND confirm themselves, that's their best play. I don't consider it bastard. While yes, TTH can be town. He's not confirmed town. I know I literally just had this argument in another game. There's a difference between what feels good and what is actually true. He can be town, and I certainly don't want to lynch him at the moment but I don't think he's 100% OMG town.

I just finished an off-site scum game where I withheld a bunch of information and got myself to be read as confirmed town, as scum. It allowed me to get away with a lot. Getting confirmed town status is a landmine for scum, so no one gets to be self-proclaimed conftown. That's also dangerous because scum then know exactly who to suck up to if they actually are town.

[Titus]

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthrea ... zen-Throne

^^ For Cheetory. It's a bastard game but I was a witch (aka redirector) and got myself cop checked.

[Titus]

@FF, Again... *sigh*

FFery and I had a big argument in Uncouth mafia. I told her my VCA confirmed clears are 100% never wrong. She fought me tooth and nail and made me feel like shit. I fought FFery this game on her read on Singer being town until she said her reads on Empire were never wrong. I've been looking for some plausibility in that read since. I would have wanted that if I presented something that was 100% never wrong. Her behavioral reads, on a whole, also are better than mine. It's something worth setting aside lynching her. As of right now though, any ability in her hands is likely to be used suboptimally so I have zero problems baning her.

[Titus]

You mean a role as hard to get off as CDBs? One that probably never work?

If all CDB has to do is match a sign to get his ability to go off, there's zero reason for his ability not to go off tonight.

CDB detect minor night one. Gets wrong sign.
CDB attempt major night one. Wrong sign.
CDB then should know Aronis's sign.

If CDB fails to check Aronis, then either CDB or Aronis is likely scum with a remote possibility of a roleblocker.

[Titus]

Look.

I'm at Bane-3.
If I get to Bane-1.

I'm claiming.
Period.
Then you'll facepalm.
And wish.

Really, really, REALLY strongly.

That you HADN'T made me.
I'm not getting baned today.

Period

.

No you're not. I'd volunteer to be baned first.

[Titus]

Should we remove the Lock, which will enable

one currently vanilla Creation aligned power role

, but also enable the Annihilation ability Duplicate?

In order for TTH to be scum faking this role, she would have to know for a fact that town wouldn't counterclaim her.
This means that the VT who could counterclaim her would have to not know that they were the VT that could have been upgraded by this choice.
Which would mean that TTH would have to assume with certainty that we wouldn't choose to unlock the choice which would be super fucking risky.
I just really can't imagine that sequence of events being a thing and that TTH would be able to predict that sequence of events working out that way as scum.
I'm gonna occam's razor that shit to the bank.

Also, btw, justsayin, I've explicitly claimed having a role similar enough to CDB's that I vouched for him yesterday, so that should tell you, "Hey, maybe DISABLING that would be a BAD IDEA".

*twitch*

That's fine for a town read for now. It's just not conftown. That's my point.

[Titus]

Holy shit this is exactly what we didn't want this bane to turn into are you guys fucking kidding me right now q.q

I agree. I'm not letting my townread get baned when it could have this far negative impact and no real upside given Mastina's not subtle crumbs. So Mastina's not claiming.

[Titus]

Ok, Mastina, I'm logging off here. Just cool your jets. I can see you're getting pissed. We can rebuild things. Just take it one step at a time.

[Titus]

Bane UT

Oversoul, your questions have already been answered.

UT is a good bane.

Got the flu, staying off the thread today.

[Titus]

@TTH, Why does your wagon analysis exclude the wagonson me and Bulba

[Titus]

He had his bane wagon.

[Titus]

My wagon has two of your scum suspects. The Bulba wagon has almost all of them.

[Titus]

@TTH, Do you think we're looking at an agency capture situation?

[Titus]

Agency Capture is not an analogy but a theory. Simplisticly, an agency is captured if the group that is supposed to be regulated is who is doing the regulating.

In terms of mafia, it means scum are preventing wagons on them by putting thoughts into conftowns heads or are widely townread and can shut down any scum wagon.

[Titus]

Spoiler: Vezok VCs

VC 26 (Minor Day 1, VC 26)

Bane:

Target player's Sign is revealed.

(6)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6, Titus, vezokpiraka [L-4]
(3)

Empire

: Bulbazak, GuyInFreezer, Marquis

(Titus, Untrod Tripod)

(3)

vezokpiraka:

T S O, ChannelDelibird, Untrod Tripod
(2)

Gammagooey:

ActionDan, Empire

(vezokpiraka)

(1)

Titus:

mastin2

(4)

No Bane Vote:

Aronis, Espeonage, TellTaleHeart, Tammy

(Titus)

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to Bane. Deadline is Sunday, April 5th at 9 PM CST.

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

mastin2 may be V/LA in the near future.

VC 36 (Minor Day 1, VC 36)

Boon:

This Minor Night, in addition to using a Minor Night action, target player may learn the Sign of any other player. This does not interact with any abilities in any way.

(9)

vezokpiraka:

Gammagooey, Espeonage, Shadoweh, ChannelDelibird, Titus, GuyInFreezer, Aronis, DeasVail, vezokpiraka [L-1!]

(4)

T S O:

T S O, Cheetory6, Marquis, Bulbazak

(vezokpiraka)

(3)

Tammy:

GuyInFreezer, DeasVail, Untrod Tripod

(GuyInFreezer, Bulbazak)

(2)

Marquis:

Aronis, TellTaleHeart
(1)

Shadoweh:

ActionDan

(Aronis)

(3)

No Boon Vote:

Empire, mastin2, Tammy

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to Boon. Deadline is Sunday, April 5th at 9 PM CST.

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

Less than twelve hours until deadline.

GuyInFreezer is V/LA until April 6th.

Vezok's scum wagon maxes at 3.

We have a lot of recycled names on Vezok's boon.

[Titus]

My plan:
1. Bane Cheetory.
2. Lynch DV.
3. Lynch vezok.

How does that sound?

I am fine with the latter but Cheetory seems town. Is therea behavioral reason to bane Cheetory?

[Titus]

@TTH, can we bane UT, then lynch Vezok or Cheetory. We have to get through the bane to get you your boon.

[Titus]

@AD, You can throw yourself a pity party while voting to bane town or you can do something about it. Like bane scum.

@Cheetory, It's not a flip on you. There is no behavioral case on you strong enough yet so I don't see myself baning there. My thoughts on Vezok are already in the thread.

[Titus]

That's not an exclusive list. My whole point was for TTH to be practical. Singer bane is not happening, so why suggest an impractical bane while asking TTH to be practical?

[Titus]

@TTH 4518 please...

[Titus]

Can't stay will literally be mauled by girl

ooh baby, now you're talking my language

Then why do you have him on the lynch list if not willing to bane him? While I agree the bane should not be lynched, that does not mean we should avoid voting for who we would lynch. That type of reasoning leads to town banes. If we are willing to lynch them, we should be willing to bane them.

[Titus]

Derp quoted wrong post. That was meant at TTH.

[Titus]

My plan:
1. Bane Cheetory.
2. Lynch DV.
3. Lynch vezok.

How does that sound?

Ok, just going to hide under a rock. Shit is messing with my brain.

[Titus]

For some reason I keep getting UT confused with other people and that should not be happening.

[Titus]

@Gamma, What's wrong with baning UT if he's scum?

[Titus]

@Gamma, What's wrong with baning UT if he's scum?

for maybe the 50th time, why would you weaken a scum player you plan on lynching before the next night phase? that's a complete waste of a bane.

Maybe because a lynch is harder to get than a bane and that may not happen.

Bane pool should be dumb town or scum.
Lynch pool should be scum.

By precluding scumreads that are lynchable, we are saying that more likely than not the bane will be on town.

[Titus]

Mastinbane?
Anyone?

You want to bane a doctor claimer? Now I am starting to see TTH's point more.

[Titus]

Boon:Mastina

[Titus]

@Singer, CDB had a matched sign on Aronis according to his claims and got a no result. Why would baning him be good over the doctor?


This should be easy. Either you believe Mastina's claim and boon her or you don't.

[Titus]

@TTH, Why are you presuming he'd get one at all? To me if he knew a sign and failed to get a result them three scenarios exist

1) Aronis is scum
2) CDB is scum
3) Scum interference

Booning CDB only makes sense in a scenario where we assume Aronis is scum unless I am missing a possibility.


Meanwhile if Mastina's town, she stops likely town from dying no matter wgat.

[Titus]

Or Aronis didn't use an action.

Or Aronis didn't use an action.

Then CDB should have gotten notice your target went nowhere as that is the site meta yet I believe CDB claimed no result.

[Titus]

Then CDB should have gotten notice your target went nowhere as that is the site meta yet I believe CDB claimed no result.

We've already been over this.
No result === no action, or sign wrong, or potential interference.

CDB claimed an action so that is out.
CDB claimed he knew Aronis's sign so not matching signs is scum interference.
So that leaves

Aronis scum, CDB scum or roleblock.

[Titus]

*deep breath*
Aronis could be scum or town who didn't make an action Major N1.
That is the alternative situation that CDB and I are referencing.

Then CDB gets a target went nowhere.

[Titus]

Spoiler: CDB Claim Quotes

Right, given the situation, I think I have to do this now. I have been trying very hard to avoid having to do so.

I am Cepira Rulk, the Harrier.

I am a Tracker, slightly modified

.

If I match sign, I get to track my target on Major Nights. If I track them using an ability that needed them to match sign, and the sign they submit is the same as their own, I also get told the name of the ability I see them using. The only drawback is that I don't get results for actions that target me.

I correctly Detected a player whom I thought might be scum and might perform a kill during the Minor Night.

I actually would have been tempted to go in harder on this player Today but I was still hoping to have the wagon on me fall away without having to claim so that I could be more sure of getting the investigation away.

Right now I don't want to give away my Detect target and their sign if I don't have to - there's still a chance that I could use it, though the necessity of claiming makes that less likely. But I will if people whom I think are town think that it would help them decide whether or not to get the frak off my wagon.

This absolutely should not have come to this, but here we are.

PEDIT: TITUS, PLEASE LEARN TO READ, I DID NOT SAY I DETECTED SOMEONE LIKELY TO BE KILLED. I DETECTED SOMEONE I THOUGHT WAS LIKELY TO BE CHOSEN TO PERFORM A KILL IF, AS I SUSPECTED, THEY WERE PART OF A MAFIA TEAM. COULD YOU PLEASE, PLEASE ACTUALLY READ THE WORDS THAT I POST AND STUDY WHAT THEY MEAN. FOR ONCE!

If it gets to the point where I'm going to have to be hammered (and it still frakking shouldn't, btw, there are enough people and enough time to save me), please give me a chance to out the sign of my target. I think it's worth doing if I'm not going to survive.

Why do you think this is a good idea?

Because I'm actually confident-ish in the read, and I'd like for him to die soon if I'm lynched. I'll just say it, for the sake of transparency.

I detected Aronis

, who I think is probably lurker scum letting the loud players just fight it out among themselves.

I really, really, really dislike role-based excuses for how people are playing. Because they come a lot more often from scum than town. I also think given your stated reads and how weak all your scumreads are that this really is just an excuse for playing in a way that people are finding scummy

That's not quite what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to excuse my whole play - the only difference to how I would have played this as a VT, I suspect, is that I would have just sat on Aronis since the end of the Minor Day. This is just to explain why I haven't pushed Aronis

and that if you honestly think that someone outside of that is LIKELY enough to be scum that you can make a better case than your previous one throwing darts at ActionDan, you should be making that case.

You can tell from my reads list that Aronis is my strongest scumread but I don't really have anything to push - it's just the fact that he's probably generic lurker scum - so I got a bit too enamored with finding something else to do and taking advantage of my detect to hit him at night. In a game where I can't always expect my night actions to work even if I target the right people, having the advantage of definitely being able to track a suspect and therefore lynching somebody else was really appealing.

Also, implying you're worth protection right now to me sounds basically deluded.

I have a powerful pro-town role, and if I survive this wagon then it'll be because people believe that I'm town - because, look at ActionDan, it's not just going to be a formality based on claim alone - so at that point those are the ingredients for someone being worth protection, yes.

quick tell me if you want Aronis's sign, I'm not sure

@CDB...did you ask hito what a track would return as a result to any actions that didn't go through because of sign shenanigans? No result? Or no response?

If you mean 'what would happen if my target submitted an incorrect sign?' then no, I actually haven't. I'd sort of assumed that a failure to match sign means you technically don't use an action, but you bringing it up makes me realise that I don't have a particular reason for that to be true instead of any other possible interpretation. I will ask hito about it.

Confirmed: I get the result even if my target incorrectly matched sign.

If all CDB has to do is match a sign to get his ability to go off, there's zero reason for his ability not to go off tonight.

CDB detect minor night one. Gets wrong sign.
CDB attempt major night one. Wrong sign.
CDB then should know Aronis's sign.

If CDB fails to check Aronis, then either CDB or Aronis is likely scum with a remote possibility of a roleblocker.

What are you talking about? I got Aronis's sign on Minor Night 1.

CDB knows Aronis's sign and gets a result even if target fails to match sign.

[Titus]

*deep breath*
Aronis could be scum or town who didn't make an action Major N1.
That is the alternative situation that CDB and I are referencing.

Then CDB gets a target went nowhere.

In a non-hito game this is true. But in Hito's games he leaves more room for error. He doesn't give trackers the explicit knowledge to know they were roleblocked with a no result response.

Hito groups no result if you get roleblocked with no result if the target goes nowhere

Maybe we should clarify this.

[Titus]

Still think the boon should be given to Mastina as she can just heal CDB or TTH and we would get the same info anyway.

[Titus]

VLA this weekend
DnD tonight, Client meeting and bimonthy Board Game meeting tomorrow.

CDB boonhammer sucks but I won't use my way or the highway as I think CDB is town.

[Titus]

@Singer,

The difference there, is that I'm already persuaded before Gamma and trying to work with him. Nothing about his case on you was weak at all. Yet, you try to get someone to push harder on a case that you admit is weak. Rather than actually scumhunting the case to check logic or find the errors in it, you want CDB to post more content. It's easy as scum to sit in the shadows and take pot shots.

The context in the post was confusing. Of course I'm aware of the Vicktor role. Yet, you were speculating about me being partners with Victor. It's a meaningless statement akin to saying I'm scum. Yet, you were trying to devine some partnership from it. So yes, the question of "Who is Victor" is absolutely appropriate. I'm sure there's a few reasons why to read one PM and not the other, even if we supposed your fallacy. But how do you reach the conclusion that a) I

have not read

Vicktor's PM and that I'm scum? You should ask your buddies who are providing meta how likely it is for me to be scum and not be aware of

all

the ins an outs of the game. That's the only way scum!Titus wins. Hell, that's the only way intelligent scum win. So if you actually believe that I did not read Victor's role PM you should be clearing me, but you are not. (It should be clear that I

have read

that PM and that's not a reason to clear me at all but I'm only bringing it up to show a fallacy on Singer's part, namely what

she

should have concluded). When Gamma said that you're context was "baseless", that was actually being polite. I would have gone with choice words that I'm sure would do nothing more than piss people off rather than being productive.

Also, you absolutely are wrong about townblocks being anti-town in general. Townblocks serve a purpose to shut off mislynches. If there's a group of people all townreading each other, it forces scum to either a) discredit (as you have with me and Mastina) or b) buddy them or c) pray for rapid death of the townblock. I find it no coincidence that Mastina's pushed sequentially right after that.

Now, are you done wasting time since I'm so throughly discredited no one in their right mind would bane me? What's the point of attacking me

now?

No one is putting forth baning me, and I'm falling out of townblocks. It rather sounds like a chainsaw defense of the CDB boon wagon.

We have a claimed doctor and a claimed investigator. Rule 1 of mafia setups.

Follow the cop

should not be a recipe for a town victory. Follow the cop has only been possible once, but the cop was a serial killer that was untouchable by the scumteam (I'm still pissed on that one). The more logical action (considering the depths this setup got reviewed), is that scum have a roleblocker. Booning CDB ensures that he's either dead or roleblocked. So what's the point in booning him? So you are right that I'm very against Booning CDB. Most people should be. Yet, the analysis is looking at the fact it's

possible

that CDB gets an investigation. I highly doubt it.

Now, if you'll excuse me from your pedantic exercises, I have something more productive to do. Like wash my car in the rain, change my new guitar strings or pretty much anything else.

[Titus]

*baning= booning me (obvious in context but bleh)

[Titus]

Why would TTH think DV is a high priority kill given the amount of suspicion DV is under?

CDB is at boon minus 3. Quickly losing hope for the smart play.

[Titus]

No. Mastina's tunnel rivals yours.

The whole playing dumb theory is just spinning to avoid the truth. Which is more likely, I pretended to be dumb to get towncred for being stupid and utterly useless deliberately marginalizing myself or b) wanting to know who Victor was in your theory?

Booning Mastina guarantees she stays alive. If she us a doctor/BP, it guarantees she will be around until Day 4 at least. So even if Mastina is blocked, we tangibly get something.

[Titus]

Boon: Mastina

Reasons would be nice.

[Titus]

Admitting my weaknesses is not deliberately marginalizong myself. It's letting people know what I am good for and not good for.

Wow. Purposefully vague to marginalize myself when I make a clear post stating that I cannot respond without knowing who Victor is... if you legit thought I was "playing dumb" why follow up with the same question? Why not say this then?

You are trying to craft a theory rather than attack anyone specific in my townblock.Congrats, it is working.


Now you want to come after me, do it during the major day. We have a day left on this boon decision. Every post you insist on chainsawing to ensure a CDB boon makes it harder for discussion of a smart play with clear results.

[Titus]

So I'll take it you're scumreading both CDB and Mastina, UT?

CDB is wrong logically, but still the plausibility of getting something makes people want to do it. Voting for TTH is like not booning at all, considering he doesn't do anything. That dog don't hunt.

@Singer, I asked you to stop repeating something and answer why Mastina is actually a decent or poor boon. You have insisted on ignoring that. Why? Because you know it's the right play but your biggest scumread cannot suggest the right play.

[Titus]

Right, but if you actually townread CDB, then you wouldn't feel there was risk in CDB. So I do think it's fair to say you're either scumreading CDB or you're doubtcasting him.

Absolutely minimizing risk is not booning at all. Booning TTH is the equivalent to not booning.

[Titus]

Wow, you're still hedging and doubtcasting. Every player has a risk. Hell, TTH even has some risk.

But if you're position is all about avoiding risk, then why are you booning someone who is guaranteed to give us nothing? The only possibility (however remote you may believe it to be) is that nothing happens or scum get a boon.

You're acting as if I'm ignoring the risk that Mastina could be scum. Anyone could be scum. At that point, we'd just never boon.

[Titus]

We have to take some risk to get the reward.

[Titus]

@UT, Yes. You are doubtcasting. You are putting forth there is a risk to booning CDB because he or anyone could be scum. If you think there's a decent possibility of CDB being scum, you need to explain it. We are running out of time to get a boon off at all. So yes, you do need to explain more than some vague "possibility" of CDB being scum. Saying someone could be scum and nothing more is the very definition of doubtcasting.

@Singer,

I'm sorry if you have trouble understanding my position that's well articulated. *shrug* Ok, no I'm not. But now since you're willing to discuss things, let's try and talk.

CDB
Risk - CDB being scum (remote), CDB being blocked (high), CDB not matching sign (unlikely), CDB getting someone who went nowhere and therefore no result (unknown, depends on how many PRs are in the setup)
Reward - A track if all the above doesn't happen, if blocked/nomatch, nothing.

Mastina
Risk - Mastina being scum(remote), no heal on CDB if roleblocker {exists regardless of boon}
Reward - Protection on CDB/TTH unless roleblock, semi-guaranteed protection on Mastina {who roleblocks the person they plan on killing}


Anyone not voting for Mastina is just wrong, but I fear I'm running out of time and unique ways to convince people of the fact booning CDB is nearly useless. There is the same exact risk if you're townreading them both, but a bigger reward with Mastina, so what's the problem?

Oh and now you've started to answer the question by actually discussing booning as to which act is better rather than painting disagreement as scummy.

You're pushing the agenda that people are wrong or scummy or stupid for wanting to Boon CDB over Mastin, but at LEAST there are three town on each wagon.

(3) mastin2: Titus, Cheetory6, Formerfish
Well there's only three people on the Mastina wagon, thank you for finally being willing to work with me.

[Titus]

You don't get it.

No follow the cop allowed.
Scum have a roleblocker.

I'm not valuing Mastina's doc anymore than CDB's track. I'm supposing that neither will happen to any significant respect. Rather, it's Mastina's bulletproof that I'm valuing more. By booning her, we force scum to block her, thus keeping her alive. By keeping her alive, we have her prowess available to crack the fucking game.

I'm not refinding everytime I've said CDB will likely be blocked again. Go read.

[Titus]

@Singer, I have absolutely factored that in. Please, I myself have claimed macho bulletproof cop. Bulletproof is my favorite thing to claim as a town PR that should die. To me, there's three possible variants to Mastina's role

Bulletproof that must match sign of her killer - Booning is an obvious positive
Doctor without bulletproof wifoming - Shut up about this possibility. You've eluded to it, but that's anti-town as fuck to postulate beyond the obvious that yes I'm aware of it and I did factor it in. If we boon Mastina in this instance, then scum would be more likely to roleblocker, thus keeping her alive. Roleblocking her and killing her is woefully inefficient.
Doc plus bulletproof - obvious reason why to boon.

Yeah, maybe a hidden mechanic to stop follow the cop that would still allow CDB to get a result if he's booned, come on.

Stop yelling and spinning everything as scum motivation.

[Titus]

**claimed that in a past game

[Titus]

Wrong again. If CDB is roleblocked, it doesn't matter as much because there's zero chance of believing he's bulletproof. He'll never get off an investigation, so we're booning a VT. We boon Mastina. Scum block her, then they still have to get through her bulletproof so she'll be kept alive.

Here, we have CDB booned. Scum block Mastina, shoot CDB. CDB gets no result and a wasted boon.

Scum have a roleblocker or something like it because the game is not breakable by follow the cop. Read the wiki.

[Titus]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ow_the_Cop

I've even pasted it for you.

[Titus]

@Shadoweh,
I absolutely agree with your analysis regarding successful night actions. I want to boon Mastina because it keeps her alive most likely. Neither are likely to be useful but Mastina being alive serves us, so if we force scum's hand to block her, they have to keep probable town alive. Probable town with a possible/probable bulletproof. I don't think it matters because I've lost this argument, but I'll bet dollars to donuts because CDB is not getting a useful investigate.

The watcher point is frustrating, because it only would have worked if TTH didn't claim. Scum can use factional abilities twice or some such nonsense if we unlocked TTH. So TTH and CDB get blocked, no results. Having no double actions does box scum into a corner.

@DV, Speculating about yourself being a nightkill is worthless. Provide something actually useful. I was townreading you but my patience has worn incredibly thin with the time you're spending blathering about theory, without any sort of practical conclusion to be drawn their from. It's empty posting. You've went this entire time without even commenting on the boon which is a waste.

[Titus]

I ask because I'm suspicious about there only being one kill last night. Scum probably would have seen me as a high priority night kill during the first minor night, so I would consider it reasonably likely that they would prep detects on me. Obviously however, I would have been a much lower priority nightkill during the major night to the point where scum may even have considered it beneficial to not kill me.

You

are

a high priority kill or you

are not

? You just said both. You're also putting a lot more assumptions into your theory for keeping me in the lynch pool than you're suggesting.

There are other potential explanations for there only being one successful unmake,

Yes, simple and basic mathematics.
The sign mechanic gives a 1/3 chance of guessing the sign correctly and given 3 unmakes, calculating the expected number of kills in any given night yield a value of...

one

.

Now of course there are things like the detect mechanism and protective (or other killstopping) roles that influence the probabilities slightly but the rough estimate should be pretty close to the actual and it was likely by hito's design.

I'm actually surprised there was a kill at all, but that would be an off the wall theory anyway which would be tantamount to coaching scum to explain. I would have been worried if we had zero kills.

[Titus]

I'll hammer. We need one more vote before I can hammer. Maybe I'm holding out for a miracle but I'm seriously debating just waking up and arguing the opposite of what I want, because I just see the town doing stupid crap again. I've been nice polite and trying not to dominate, but I don't kiss ass well. I'm very frustrated at this point.

[Titus]

we might actually want to claim failed/non-failed traces on people to see if anyone sticks out as Viktor

but I'd rather that wait until after the first lynch at least

Trace: Target a player. If they detected and you were not Traced, you will receive the name of the player they detected. Otherwise, you will receive no result.

Bad idea Gamma.



TTH, I was going to follow you but you had to post that shit about Bulba being scum. You thought Mastina was scum, that's not true. You're townreading Singer, which is just wrong IMO.

[Titus]

VOTE: UT

I'm wanting to see what happens here with a UT wagon. I like UT as scum and I do agree with Gamma's analysis. I totally spaced on UT getting another detect or trace if we didn't lynch him. Blah.

[Titus]

@TTH, I get to disagree with you all I want until one of your scumreads flips scum. You haven't been proven right or wrong on anything this game. The only thing I trust 100% is my VCA. Period. I'll trust my own reads over yours unless you provide a compelling case. All evidence points towards Bulba town, so you want to start that fight, go ahead.

Any "positive" result requires the target to detect. If the target traced, no result is given and thus a false negative is given. So by anyone who didn't get a result, it just suggests the target is a VT. That's a strong reason I don't like Vezok saying he traced you.

[Titus]

Oh

NOW YOU PEOPLE WANT UT

Assholes

We can lynch Espy with the second lynch.

[Titus]

Pretty sure ffery was saying we should lynch DV btw.
If you're gonna champion ffery's reads @gamma.

No FFery was saying to lynch UT and that she really regretted not letting the UT wagon go through.

[Titus]

Spoiler: FFery's last readwall

Nacho's reads list:

Oversoul - Tammy was extremely, extremely town. Oversoul is very, very town. The chances of two players who hate playing scum coming into this slot and towning it up this hard as scum is basically zero

GammaGooey - he came into the game, found his stride and has been strongly strongly town ever since. Nacho doesn't think he can fake that as scum. he's made very townminded pushes several different times, and his reads have been fluid, which is something that takes a lot of effort, care and energy to do as scum. he's not playing in anyone's shadow and he's very deliberately butted heads with us on the specifics of our reads several times. All stuff very difficult to fake as scum, and vanishingly unlikely to come from gammagooey-scum. But, he's kept this up all through the game, even when he's said he feels unmotivated and lost. It's been an emotion, not an excuse.

Cheetory - he's had a phenomenal number of genuine moments in the game. As one example look at his strongarming and frustration at the end of this day, and his questioning of us on Espeonage.

------ above this line will not flip scum -------

singer - her level of engagement here vs in her scum games simply leaves no comparison. it's ridiculous to call this play scum. Additionally, regfan's contributions are far more likely to come from town-reg than scum-reg. since ASOIAF, nacho has approached Empire reads carefully. he found Empire's play to be very town, and his replace out to be stratospheric levels of town. he can't see Zar, who prides himself on his scum game replacing out because of heat from Tammy. Also, don't forget to look at Empire's other replace-out in this contest.

Mastin, the only reason this read isn't in the next-up section is because of your scum read. Without that it would be 100%. With that, Nacho feels it's 95% this slot flips town.

titus - stuff nacho loves about her play: the interactions with Ika through GiF, crumbing her sign to him, telling him he should be townreading her, he loves the way she freaked out about possibly outing Alquin. he feels titus' interactions with mastin wouldn't happen that way if she were scum. he thinks the way she's tried to get mastin and us to agree on a lynch is insanely town. 2352 is a strong town tell. the comment re not getting invited into townblocs is a strong towntell. Telling mastin she's not conftown is a strong town tell. Nacho fully believes scum-titus would be willing to buddy mastin for a seat at the townbloc table, which is exactly what didn't happen. the waffle on singer-scum is a towntell. the only reason to do that is to buddy us, and we're dead in a few hours - no reason to buddy us.

------- gap - more to come --------------

paraphrasing while keeping the full gist takes a lot of time. bear with me.

oh - the only reason titus isn't 100% is because nacho usually has uncertainty in his titus reads. not having uncertainty is ironically a source of small uncertainty.

Next chunk

mastin2 - Nacho has seen this stubborn read-pushing but relatively low engagement style from mastin-town a couple times in recent memory. he's never seen it from mastin-scum. This style of play alienates her from player lists (unless there's a huge contingent of players who know her fairly well) and makes her an easier lynch target. he agrees with me that the incessant crumbing is not something he's seen from her as scum. The mindset behind her "walking deadwoman" posting which, as Regfan has pointed out, only makes it more difficult for her to explain being alive at endgame. In this game, scum-mastin would be aiming to be alive at endgame. Some of

her stranger reads, e.g., Cheetory-scum, singer-scum, DV (nacho disagreed with DV-scum once but not so strongly anymore)

are scumreads that won't be getting lynched anytime soon - not easy to push if scum, and in total alienate her from the rest of the playerlist to some extent. She would be pushing easy mislynches if scum townread. her mindset is quite simply not a scum mindset.

Vezokpiraka - Nacho's main reason for townreading Vezok can't be talked about in this game, but it's there and it's informed this read for much of the game. Vezok tracing TTH to DV is a good towntell. it's possible that the scumteam realized that most players are going to be detecting and thought that tracing and claiming it would look town as fuck, and that this scumteam would and decide to give the tracing results to vezok to claim since he already knew someone's sign . It's possible, but Nacho doesn't find it all that likely. His aggressive push on TTH after the Trace on her, and the continued pushing of her even after he moves off the wagon, and his hostil interactions with mastin after that wagon falls down) also feels very town. When you look at the evolution of his mastin read, it has a surprisingly good progression behind it. (I would call this awesome trajectory!) he doesn't think all of this focus from vezok is something he'd think to fake as scum.

Aronis - I already posted our thoughts on his meta. The way Copper took specific interest in TTH and TTH only ( which was to the point where he encouraged a push initially, and then backed off before the wagon began disintegrating) seemed pretty fucking town. scum!copper expecting TTH to townread him from that interaction alone is unlikely.

Espeonage - Nacho backed off this Espeonage as a scumread mostly for the way that he claimed early, treated his VT claim (attempted to WIFOM scum by claiming his sign, offered to claim Cheetory's sign). Both those interactions follow the cryptic way he's treated his role in other games where he's been engaged as a PR. Nacho also still kinda likes his interaction with Tammy.

Nacho's CDB Read

406 Nacho is pretty sure that CDB was one of the first people to bring up the "let's not Bane #1 scummiest" approach. This fits and makes sense given CDB claiming he's an investigative PR. I love it when you can find early evidence of the mindset that a specific PR should give a town player.

In 920 he reiterates this, and makes a weak towntell into a strong one.

The Westeros push that CDB is somehow scummy because they don't believe town-CES would take a position about vezok being hard to read when he's actually pretty transparent. Reasons why this doesn't look scum motivated - there is no real scum motivation for scum-CDB to bane vezok rather than anyone else. And, scum-CES wouldn't lie ab out a player being unreadable because it's a dumb thing to lie about.

We've talked already about CDB's push on Empire about lack of empathy looking town. Nacho has done some meta research looking at CDB's emotions in scumgames and still feels this is a type of emotional manipulation that he can't easily see coming from scum-CDB.

His questions about whether to out Aronis's sign before he died was also very town.

CDB is holding the same top 5 townreads Gestalt does, and this feels good. Even more so because he talks about having a LOT of confidence in his townreads but not a lot of confidence in his scumreads. That's how we're feeling about the game as well.


Overall, CDB is a strong townread for Nacho.

TTH - Nacho thinks that 1486 seems like a strange approach to take to the game for tth-scum. it's a hell of a claim to make and she could have at least tried to fight off the wagon without claiming and locking herself into a potentially bad situation on day 2. and yet, she didn't even so much as try. Her scumhunting isn't particularly terrible, though it'd be great if she was more engaged than she has been. her comment on DV's lynch pool is decent. #2492 as a reiteration of her power looks town as shit. Anti's reachout to mastin because of townread looks pretty town. Also, turning on her strongest defender (mastin) is additionally very town, and a town defender is not something a scum player would want to put at risk. behaviorally, the attitude she's put into the thread so far does make sense from a player who expects to be confirmed town eventually.

Even if she doesn't confirm herself tomorrow, nacho wouldn't immediately lynch her. scum roleblockers and such are a thing after all.

Nacho's shadoweh read.

he doesn't understand the scum-purpose of Shadoweh's beginning to sort-of push on Tammy in 207. Scum-Shadoweh knows that she is probably expected to townread Tammy and knows that implying Tammy is scum is going to bring Tammy's ire in her direction. Scum-Shadoweh also wouldn't going get any towncred from a push at all if she immediately backs off. Which she did.

Her push on singer actually looks like a decent and natural response to defend a townread in that way, Titus is a strange player to for shadoweh to buddy up to because even when Titus was being mostly townread she didn't have a large amount of sway. Nacho very much liked the #3 paragraph of 1904, especially the bit about "you won't be lynching me today".

This post by Shadoweh also feels quite town. It's also a good point: Nacho feels like CDB's worst scumread was Shadoweh because it was formed for apparently no reason. Nacho doesn't think scum would be likely to raise hell with someone because they forgot to include them in a scumlist.

Shadoweh's apology to Espy in 2688 seems pretty solid and town.

Oh. You picked one of my only friends playing left. I wish I could disagree that big post felt weird.

Nacho didn't see this post before now, but holy shit it reads so town.

Going to a STRONG townread when Dan started reacting feels nice and in line with our own thoughts. so do most of the interactions with Dan in general.

Nacho kinda started this reread with the mindset that maybe he was only townreading Shadoweh because he likes Shadoweh as a person but going through her posts he now feels pretty strongly about her being town. he's come away with a good read on her instead of one of those "oh I think she's town here are reasons she's town" conf-bias reads. NACHO BELIEVES!

No, FFery had DV as town, calling a scumread on DV "strange".

[Titus]

No, they were townreading DV. The section says Nacho is still disagreeing with DV scum, but not as strongly. If Nacho was scumreading DV, the last section ("but not so strongly" would be redundant). They tried to reach out to DV but that's the last they said on the slot.

One of the first rules of statutory interpretation is you give every word meaning.

[Titus]

So Titus what do YOU think of DV?

I want more content from him. Given the people pushing him are expressing ass-backwards reads, gun to my head, town.

[Titus]

"Ass-backwards"?

Who's

really

pushing him (or had been from yesterday) and where are they wrong?

Reread the start of the day k thanks. Just for the lazy. TTH thinks Bulba's scum. That's wrong. You think I'm scum and that's wrong. Cheetory's foundation on DV is inaccurate.

So what you think of UT and Vezok?

[Titus]

@Singer,

Reads devolve after 1000s posts of promises and doing nothing and multiple flips is normal. Scum tend to be more static in their reads. You and your personal vendetta against me looks very suspect in that regard. Mastina hasn't been on today but she is the reason I entertained said read. Mastina also hasn't pushed the DV lynch today but three people I am relatively confident have bad reads pushing DV (well Cheetory's read was just based on a factual inaccuracy and he seems to be taking another look. When I said the start of the day, I meant the start of the day.

[Titus]

@UT,

Why is Gamma scum?

Pick someone make a case on them.

[Titus]

I haven't pushed DV for jack shit. I'm voting for pressure. I'd vote FF for pressure, too, since he's basically done jack all of nothing since he replaced in and yet only a few people have muttered his name.

And when I said "or from yesterday" I meant "or from yesterday" so...yeah, I really would've loved your comments on the people pushing him then before I had to ask again! I also just said I had a hard time following where your read went. What are you doing to "see more" from him if your read's changing?

So am I suspect, or am I scum? Are you regurgitating that because I had previously mentioned that I found stubborn reads to come more often from scum than town?

Preview Edit:
Gamma...how is that different than every other UT game? He's actually the same as RRR and it's not like I want to reward that kind of behavior, but why wouldn't that be equally applicable to people like AD or FF (again, had done jack shit)?

What is RRR?

It would be easier for people to do jackshit if you backed out of trying to force your way onto people and worked with them, not just by sticking "pressure" votes but by helping them clarify their thoughts in thread. You've done nothing but fluff post and grandstand.

I know I'm posting a lot too, but my posts tend to get people engaged and explaining their positions. I expect to go a few rounds with TTH because I've asked directed questions to him.

To that point, I'm trying to keep our personal drama to a minimum and working on other scum suspects. And yes, that's scum suspects akin to scumreads. Meaning I don't have the answer yet. I won't till VCA. Deal with it. You want 100% certainty from me, lynch a scumread who isn't me for starters.

Why don't you actually put up a reads list rather than acting like a primadonna? You don't want Gamma to be right, then prove him wrong by working with people.

[Titus]

*not do jackshit

[Titus]

V/LA Today working

[Titus]

@Singer, I don't know why

you

are ignoring the majority. GiF liked me as town at the end there. But hey, go ahead and cherry pick. If you think there's something we're missing from that list go ahead.

After work, I'll remake a town Bulba case. I kinda want to have that logic debate with TTH.

[Titus]

@Singer, his team's not in the dead thread. Oh and yes, I do.

I'll appeal to logic and the logic is that you're cherry picking to support your points.

Why don't you make a case on someone that's not me or a lurker?

[Titus]

@Shadoweh,

GiF, through ika's suggested words, claimed doctor to me. Given he took a huge risk in doing so, I highly doubted he was scum. I never explained at the time because I couldn't out the doctor. My play the rest of day 1 was towards getting him information and protecting him. I ahem sucked and he was too obvtown but that's what I was doing.

[Titus]

Oh and as for the Deas statement, I stiill consider that town but FFery fitting her reads to Nacho's.

[Titus]

@Cheetory, that's precisely what I was saying.

GiF wasn't a scumread of FFery's as far as I can ever remember.

I'm not exclusively sheeping FFery for which reads to lynch. I am sheeping her as which reads

not

to lynch.

[Titus]

That quote was true at the time but I looked at the end of the day. She did change her reads a fair amount.

[Titus]

Found that post.

Chronology is key.

Ffery says flip espe or DV.
Then DV is a "strage" scumread.
Then don't lynch Espy because no lynch.

[Titus]

@Cheetory, Welcome to my world. I feel you people don't understand basic English and jump to what you want to see. Occasionally I'm wrong, but not to often.

@TTH, We'll see the detailed version when I'm not doing 2-3 things at once.

[Titus]

also @TTH I will probably not get around to rereading bulba for another RL day or two. did manage to not look at your spoiler for when i do get around to it.

Excellent!

In that time I will have completely alienated Titus and pissed off anybody who might otherwise not currently hate me.

If you're trying to piss me off, encouraging me to get that Bulba case to have a logical dialogue with you is a horrible way to do that.

[Titus]

Spoiler: Bulba is town case

Ok, I'm starting on the wall here. For those of you playing along at home, the players I townread I tend to see have logical consistent thoughts, even if I disagree with them, as that's how I feel town should be playing. So if I like someone's contributions, their actions are logical, and consistent, I will more likely than not townread them. Someone jumps to a major townread if I feel like they are saying what I was trying to say better. If I can track someone's train of thought, that makes them predictable and more likely town. If they actually follow through with where I'm predicting them to be, that's a strong indicator they are town. If I am wrong on the townread, then I look back and know what they are pushing over something else and it gives me an idea as to what the alignment of other players are in the game. I like people who will clash with me (like Cheetory is doing but he could be less demeaning) because he's stating that he views the interpretation of the post differently and it guides him to a different conclusion. While I think Cheetory's analysis is not sound, it is valid IMO. Interpretations are frequently where I butt heads with other players.

Now that you understand why I give players the reads I do, now we're going to look at the specific posts from Bulba's ISO that give me similar feelings about him.

#352 - #357 and the exchange that followed regarding Mastina being town versus Mastina being scum over not posting is a very good position there. He's not whiteknighting Mastina but he's stating things that he believed to explain Town!Mastina. At the time, I disagreed with that read, but he explained it in a logical concise manner. His response to "nail Mastina to the floor" indicates a willingness to change his mind if he was wrong. Such posts indicate a person changing their opinion based on incoming facts rather than sticking to a narrative.

#657, The interaction here with DV feels natural and mirrors my attempts to sync up with my townreads. Neither Bulba nor myself are emotional players, so the fact he's pushing DV to explain his reads in terms he understands is good. A scum player can just dismiss those reads because they lack "evidence" and its what I would expect a logic based scumplayer to do.

#927 Bulbazak attempts to dismantle a meta foundation of my read, which is unlikely (but still possible) to come from scum. He didn't deny the facts I was using but provided real life context that I didn't have when saying that I thought even Bulba's meta was consistent with him being town.

#1207 I like the resistance to group!think, even though I like Marquis (now FormerFish) as town. Forming a group of people who all think each other are town, and eventually agree on a scumread after discussion is one thing. Following group think is a bad idea.

He also expresses the fact that many of his townreads are townreading his scumread, but doesn't actually outright change his read on Vezok. Again, townpoints for the observation but not outright moving of his read.

1375 looks like genuine frustration over being ignored.

1379 reminds me that Aronis needs to get on and post. Bulba's interaction leading up to the vote in real time I can follow. Aronis's answers there were pretty shitty.

1540 makes sense as Mollie plays in a more frustrating, get under people's skin and see what shakes rather than pure logic. Mollie doing a reaction test through Bulba feels genuine. Mollie's much better at the early game, where there's less to go on. Versus me where I tend to be better at the end. So a reaction test from her makes sense.

1613 is Bulba again being consistent and fighting against rapid group think.

@Bulba,

We should totally revisit the findings in 1753/1765. Perhaps we should be pushing Aronis here?


Skip a few posts because this is turning into a wall.

3464
Bulba asks me why TSO's reads had to be investigated by a vote. That's something that comes from town, trying to work together. Why did you think to do that? What other methods would be more effective? My biggest flaws are acting too fast and not thinking things through.

He tries to force Vezok to take a stand on me and provides the context he thinks your read lacks. Again, this shows a mindset that town are generally rational and make the right decision with all the information while defending Mastina as town before it was cool.


Bulba goes into a bit of wagon analysis. Bulba tends to favor more wagon analysis with living players, yet I don't. It's a touch different as I've seen you do that as well TTH.

This doesn't even include the extreme pushes on bulba scum day 1 for a reason I still do not understand.

^^ Spoilered that because someone is rereading Bulba.

[Titus]

@Bulba, do me a favor and have Mollie get a lot of thoughts together, then bring them out. I'm not exactly wanting to deal with her in mafia games right now.

[Titus]

Are you fucking kidding me?

I literally just made a shiny fucking Bulba is obvtown case. You call it useless and then proceed to vote the guy I just showed was town.

Yo! TTH, THAT is how you piss me off.

@Bulba, I answered it like 50 times. :/ The mods aren't going to make a game breakable by follow the cop.

[Titus]

There are more than a few things that interfere with that theory without having a roleblocker. Try again.

The things you mentioned were not interference. Scum have to have a roleblocker or some other method of bypassing beyond *cross your fingers*. Thus CDB was a terrible boon.

[Titus]

They could have been facing a tracker and a watcher, that's not resolved by a one shot strongman.

[Titus]

@Singer,

I see you have no problem with people who have been lurking, as long as they do what you want.

@Aronis,

Why are Espy and I the best choices?

[Titus]

Why?

Also, why would you think Espy and I were scum together, despite Espy and I being at each other's throats most of the game? That just looks like reads of convience playing both sides so their happy.

We're both town btw.

[Titus]

Why do you think he's a scum "mastermind"?

[Titus]

Why is Vezok a townread Oversoul? His recent play isn't making me feel good.

[Titus]

I cannot even understand his Bulba read. The trace on TTH is pretty scummy. It blocks TTH, obvtown likely to trace, fromgetting a result, even if true. If anything it looks like scum protecting fellow scum to me. How do you get tracing TTH as town?

[Titus]

It's not overly paranoid to look at an action and then see which side it will benefit more and then judge alignment accordingly. There's a

chance

everyone is scum but me. That doesn't excuse detecting obvtown. If TTH got a guilty, he would be nearly unquestionable and that person should be lynched. Tracing TTH makes much more sense as a defensive scum manuever than an overly paranoid town. You effectively blocked the "copping" of someone.

[Titus]

Oversoul, your post makes me wish I could make GiFs.

Vezok, it depends on the circumstances. It can be like that. A negative result says either VT or Victor or other lying scum. A positive result says that the player is either PR or scum. So yeah, having TTH being uninterfered with limits scum fakeclaims in case you haven't noticed. So yeah TTH could have copped CDB by seeing who he likely detected. If he detected someone like TTH, that would make CDB scum. So yeah, his result could be like a cop if TTH wasn't traced.

[Titus]

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

[Titus]

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

You are the only one who doesn't apply occam's razor.

Why in the name of whatever you curse at would I come forth as scum saying I traced someone who is confirmed town? Do you think I have a death wish as scum?

I suppose both town and scum are equally capable of doing Occam's Razor.

Town you would need to need to disclose that since massclaiming traces and detects is stupid.
Scum you would want to claim that in advance in case someone traced you.

Occam's Razor says that claim's more likely to come from scum.

[Titus]

*doing = applying

[Titus]

Hey yo, TTH you going to respond to my town!Bulba case? Maybe provide your scum!Bulba thoughts.

Also, TTH you are not applying Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor has scum detecting unless they are in hot water and then they trace those suspecting them.

@Mastina, did Pie's read change on me? I notice I'm not in there. Talk to me more about Deas besides Tails of You.

[Titus]

**By that, I need more than meta because my personal experience is different than yours and I'm naturally more inclined to follow my own experience and doubly so given the fact that everyone but you pushing DV seems to have faulty reads.

[Titus]

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

You are the only one who doesn't apply occam's razor.

Why in the name of whatever you curse at would I come forth as scum saying I traced someone who is confirmed town? Do you think I have a death wish as scum?

I suppose both town and scum are equally capable of doing Occam's Razor.

Town you would need to need to disclose that since massclaiming traces and detects is stupid.
Scum you would want to claim that in advance in case someone traced you.

Occam's Razor says that claim's more likely to come from scum.

If someone traced him, he wouldn't have gotten a result from TTH, which he would've known when TTH claimed to have not gotten a result. Unless you're implying that there's a really awkward trace circle going around.

And...didn't you claim to have detected on minor night one? Occam's razor says you're scum.

Nah, because I didn't detect minor night 2. I traced. I only detected because I wanted to get signs to the doctor. My claim's already written. Note everything I said with Occam's Razor is "suggests" not confirms for a reason. Night actions must be figured out by what a player actually does.

[Titus]

@Titus...iou wanted to get signs to the doctor, why did you support a lynch on the person whose sign you had just narrowed down?

GiF was refusing to solve the crumb, as such my notification was not going through and I had developed a scumread on TSO, not my favorite but still there and I wanted a lynch to get my reads moving. Mastina and FFery, the two townleaders I had agreed. If GiF had shown any indication of townreading TSO and having solved my message, I would not have.

[Titus]

My flip reveals people as scum. ika tends to townread people I'm scumreading and I do like a modicum of conflict around me. It keeps me from being buddied as hard. TSO wasn't a big scumread and someone ika may have wanted healed. I was trying to detect the signs ika would find useful, not what I would do as doctor as I can't force ika to make smart decisions.

[Titus]

I'm still waiting on your read on anyone who isn't a lurker or me Singer. The more you stall and redirect from the fact you aren't scumhunting, the more I want you lynched.

[Titus]

Singer, ika and I go way back and have our own language. If I had the same relationship with Mastina, I would have detected last night. I don't. If I can selectively tell information to the slot I believe to be the doctor, you bet your ass that I will indeed do that. Mastina and I both were under heat. Scum killing us would have given the town information. I made a judgment call as to who the best player was to check that night.

I'm still waiting on you to scumhunt instead of nitpick. A read on anyone.

=============

@TTH, I'm still waiting on your response to my town!Bulba case.