Newbie 1677 (Game Over)

[MochaMan]

Hullo!
In all of my games here on MS, the IC was a mafia.
VOTE: mykonian

[MochaMan]

@MochaMan, is that just the 1 game or have you played before under different accounts?

Just the 1 game on here, quite a few on scumhunt when it was up, and a ton of tabletop mafia.

[MochaMan]

@tojam & Natsu

If you wouldn't mind, what kind of experience do you have with mafia, in general?

[MochaMan]

Yeah, lol. I think the mafia count was around 30 players. Are those mega-games not a thing here?

Jeez. How long do those games usually last? I could imagine a whole year.

[MochaMan]

@mod: mykonian has his vote on Ruku

[MochaMan]

Good catch, sort of.

I like Ruku for scum, for different reasons. RVS is already noncommital, but Ruku even then shifts responsibility away from him for his vote to a rng generator. That's a worrying habit to have.

vote Ruku

Seems a bit opportunistic, but at the same time there isn't a whole lot to go off on at page 1. Using an rng for rvs seems like something I'd do too.
Since my vote is already on you I might as well keep it there.

[MochaMan]

Good catch, sort of.

I like Ruku for scum, for different reasons. RVS is already noncommital, but Ruku even then shifts responsibility away from him for his vote to a rng generator. That's a worrying habit to have.

vote Ruku

Seems a bit opportunistic, but at the same time there isn't a whole lot to go off on at page 1. Using an rng for rvs seems like something I'd do too.

And now you know why you shouldn't!

The RVS stage is about making silly reasons then people responding to your silly reasons and that somehow spirals out of control till you have real stuff to discuss. How is anyone going to talk about your silly reasons if it was "well the dice said so". It used to be more prevalent that people did roll dice, but this is the reason why it has pretty much died out now. The RNG vote gave town no benefit, makes some sense from a scum motivation, it became a scumtell of sorts.

We shouldn't let ruku get away with murder here!

Hm. Well did it really? I mean "Because rng said so" might not give the town any benefit, but I can't see it being scum motivated.
And clearly with the discussion we're having now is helping to push the game forward. (but that's beside the point)

To say that it's harder to reply to "Because rng said so" than it is to "I blame Canada!!" would be false imo.
The only scum motivation (I can see from this) is to delay actual discussion.

Can you honestly say that Ruku had a scum intent to delay the game with his "It was rng" despite him being more active compared to some of the other players?
Maybe the one we shouldn't let get away is you!

But I have no reason not to believe you, so I'll keep what you said in mind for future games.

[MochaMan]

It used to be more prevalent that people did roll dice

Wait did people who did roll dice turn out to be mafia more often than not?

[MochaMan]

It's a bit better than just a habit for the scum's side. And again, we don't need it to be a 100% tell. 51% will do.

Fair enough, you make a good point. I'll still be keeping an eye on you Mr.IC.

On the other hand:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: jachawk
There should be plenty of material to comment on and not just make a random vote. Come out and play

[MochaMan]

How many games have you read through?

I've skimmed over quite a few games to get a handle of how some of the people that are in my games play and how to play myself.
I can't give you an exact number here, but probably somewhere around 20.

[MochaMan]

@Natsu : I have not read through any game so far, but seems like a good idea

One thing I wanted to point out is that mykonian seems to be a bit too eager to lynch ruku. I am not really convinced that using a RNG suggests scum intent, certainly not enough to lynch somebody.

I sense a fair bit of conviction when Mykonian says

We shouldn't let ruku get away with murder here!

I think only scum would have enough information to act with such confidence. Even though using an RNG does not give the town much, it is not right to expect much from a random vote and use it as a reason to vote somebody.

Though mykonian puts up a good argument later, I feel he acted with opportunistic scum intent earlier.

So,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: mykonian

I don't know if anyone votes on page 2 with intent for a lynch (at least I don't). I think it's mostly for getting reactions.

[MochaMan]

@Natsu: Yes, you are too poorly uninformed, so read the wiki!!! And I don't want to waste the first day getting killed by the scum trying to fool you all, yes Natsu, I'm pointing the finger at you, you literally jumped on a bandwagon against me when you are 'too uninformed to handle' and claim I'm trying to skip the RVS, how do you even know what that means if you're not informed well enough, I've been playing since before Christmas and know less than you!!

Vote:Natsu

@MochaMan This is my 3rd game on this site, however I have had some impeccable rounds of TIMV where I as detective have correctly chosen who to lynch 4/5 times, I have played over 150 rounds through all 3 classes I think.

TIMV?

I can't tell if this OMGUS is indicative of a noob mindset or a scum mindset, but I'm certain it's one of the two.

For the time being, UNVOTE:

[MochaMan]

tojam2 is at L-1

I'd just like everyone to take note.

[MochaMan]

But still, advertising that you intend to change your vote later will probably lead to less than honest reactions, slowing the game down.

That isn't what I intended, I just wanted to share my thoughts.

[MochaMan]

Theory discussion isn't everything, but at least it's a discussion of sorts!

@mykonian (or anyone else who wants to answer), I've almost finished skimming through other peoples games, and trying to look at their MOs. Would it be appropriate to mention something like "(user) has played like this before in previous games." or are outside games not for discussion?

[MochaMan]

Sorry for the long stream of replies, but in addition to the above post:
I didn't mean to quote specific games of course, but just in a general sense.

Sometimes I post questions without thinking too clearly ahead. Please excuse me, I haven't slept in ages.

[MochaMan]

To post 49:
Quote 1: Over 40% of the players on what is supposed to be a newbie game have already played 3 games on this site, this is my 3rd and from the past experience of my 2 games, the newbs always follow lead of the SEs, I suppose I get to exploit that when I complete this game though.
Quote 2: so you're telling me you trust a newb to do reads?

TIMV stands for Trouble in Mineville, it's a Mafia game on Minecraft, the rules on organised lynches are relaxed so 1 person can take out any number of people at once.

I have no idea what RVS and OMGUS stand for, if someone could explain that it would be useful.

Ruku, I started at L-1, what do you mean getting to L-1 this early?
Also, good point about hawkleader, although backing me up is non-alignment indicative if I am town (which I am as you'll find out if you vote me off).

I'm going to assume that now accusations are flying, RVS (whatever that is) is over.

[MochaMan]

Whoops misclicked.

To post 49:
Quote 2: so you're telling me you trust a newb to do reads?

Whether or not someone is a newb shouldn't affect the validity of their claims. To answer like this rather than answer what Ruku asked of you is incredibly scummy.

TIMV stands for Trouble in Mineville, it's a Mafia game on Minecraft, the rules on organised lynches are relaxed so 1 person can take out any number of people at once.

I have no idea what RVS and OMGUS stand for, if someone could explain that it would be useful.

Thanks
RVS
OMGUS

I'm going to assume that now accusations are flying, RVS (whatever that is) is over.

Yeah, it'd be safe to assume so.

[MochaMan]

This strikes me as odd, as it was clearly spoke about earlier on the day. This is could be Mafia fishing for PRs.

Hawkleader is leaning scummier and I really didn't like that post.

Woah I completely over looked the asking for a claim. Good eye.
Someone hasn't even joined the game yet and you're asking for a claim?
VOTE: hawkleader3

[MochaMan]

Ruku, I started at L-1, what do you mean getting to L-1 this early?

L-X means the amount of votes you are away from a lynch, where X is the number of votes required for a hammer.
There are 5 votes required a vote for a lynch right now.
You were at 4 votes, hence L-1.
Now you have 3 people voting for you, so you are at L-2.

Wiki link: L-1

[MochaMan]

@Ruki, the mod posted in the last VC that Canadian was getting replaced.

[MochaMan]

I don't really mind how the tojam wagon formed

I'm a bit worried about the wagon on him and how easy it came to be.

Would you mind reiteratng, mykonian?

[MochaMan]

Does he know something about tojam2 and is trying to move the wagon off him? His vote to put him at L-1 seems contradictory if they were a scum team unless he knew someone would unvote or ask to claim.

jachawk put him at L-1, not me.

I would love to assume they are a scum team, but it isn't that easy.

IMO thinking about scumteams when it isn't MYLO is pretty useless, especially when it's day 1 and not everyone has joined yet.

[MochaMan]

IMO thinking about scumteams when it isn't MYLO

or there isn't a confirmed mafia yet

is pretty useless, especially when it's day 1 and not everyone has joined yet.

EBWOP

[MochaMan]

is asking too many questions

This is the first I've heard of it being a bad thing.

[MochaMan]

Alright, since this game is moving relatively slow, I figure I may as well make a defence.

he isnt taking any stances

This strikes me as odd, as it was clearly spoke about earlier on the day. This is could be Mafia fishing for PRs.

Hawkleader is leaning scummier and I really didn't like that post.

Woah I completely over looked the asking for a claim. Good eye.
Someone hasn't even joined the game yet and you're asking for a claim?
VOTE: hawkleader3

Unless you're talking about read lists and such, which I don't like doing.

his little content.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
Even if half my posts were fluff, I'd still be sitting in second for amount of posts.

maybe its because he isnt taking any stances and is asking too many questions for his little content.

In what case (if any), would asking questions be beneficial as a mafia?

[MochaMan]

Asking questions isn't as beneficial to the town as contributing your ideas and thought processes. It does benefit the town a little, but it makes mafia look town. I'm not saying town can't ask questions, but you did admit half your posts are fluff. That isn't good.

Even if

half my posts were fluff, I'd still be sitting in second for amount of posts.

[MochaMan]

Mocha your defense is trash.

Where are you trying to go with that post?

[MochaMan]

Asking questions isn't as beneficial to the town as contributing your ideas and thought processes. It does benefit the town a little, but it makes mafia look town.

The notion that asking too many questions is scummy because it can make the mafia look like town is ridiculous.

[MochaMan]

MochaMan - PC makes a good comment about too many questions,

Ugh, I always forget to look over my posts once I'm finished with them.
EBWOP

[MochaMan]

@Mocha I was pointing your defense is invalid. Try again please!

I'm open to answering questions, but "Try again!" isn't going to cut it.

[MochaMan]

If I could we found out early d1 like you, I would try to make some effort to save myself.

What?

[MochaMan]

PhantomCobalt -

Mocha your defense is trash.

After this I was actually townreading PC mainly because in a town mindset, their frustrations are usually less restricted, and they're able to vent a little bit more. But after #108, #110, and #121, that view has changed. Him tunnelling me would in a general case be beneficial, but in a case like post #121 where it generates little to no discussion, doesn't really serve much purpose aside from agitating me. I want to say that he's scum purely because of an instinctive OMGUS, but even trying to be as objective as I can, I still see him as leaning scum.

Mykonian -
I share thoughts with Natsu in the sense that Mykonian is the most difficult to read. I feel like he genuinely puts forth theory discussion, but I don't think he pushes his own agenda in those posts, namely #100, and #117. Maybe he is, and Natsu is seeing something that I'm not. But from my point of view, he's leaning town.

Ruku -
I was getting a little worried that Ruku was scum settling for low hanging fruit (tojam2), but the case he builds against tojam2 is quite strong. I disagree with his argument against Mykonian, but I can see where he's coming from. Leaning town.

Natsu -
My views for quite a few things were shared with Natsu, but just looking at his #118, there is a lot less information there than I initially thought, but while it's nice that Natsu pointed out the lurkers, it is a bit concerning that Natsu has a scum read on Mykonian, but no vote (as Ruku pointed out). Null

tojam2 -
The tojam2 wagon was an interesting one to watch as more and more users were piling on. I believe that there's scum there regardless if tojam2 really is a noob town or scum. It's hard to believe he is either town or scum, but it's pretty clear that he doesn't put too much forethought into his posts. Null.

eventi and jachawk have too little content to say anything about, but hopefully eventi's replacement will post more than eventi did.

hawkleader3 -
Part of my read on him is because he's a SE. He was eager to go after tojam2 in #30.

@tojam2: you have not given a response to my vote on you. Sure most of us were in RVS, but I'm concerned as to why my vote got no attention at all. A simple rolling-eyed emoticon would've sufficed in this situation. Now tojam2, with you at L-1, it is time for a claim

NO OTHER PLAYERS NEED TO VOTE TOJAM2 UNTIL A CONSENSUS IS MADE FIRST! Hammering quickly is bad for the hammerer because it looks scummy, bad for tojam2 because he will be dead, and if he flips town, it is bad for the town. THE ONLY PERSON WHO BENEFITS BY HAMMERING QUICKLY IS SCUM so no quick hammers please.

I wish more people were less experienced at mafiascum. I was really in a teaching kind of mood this game.

Am I the only one that thinks that this was ridiculously opportunistic? An SE, asking for a claim in the middle of the third page, when not everyone has even posted yet. Scum
Why were you so hasty to get a claim from tojam2 without considering the possibility of others unvoting?

So in terms of least to most scummy
Ruku > Mykonian > Natsu = tojam2 > PhantomCobalt > hawkleader3

I think I still like my vote where it is.

[MochaMan]

I'm kind of hesitant about non-RVS voting with many players not playing the game yet. Is that a bad thing?

It can be, if you're too conservative with your vote, and aren't pushing enough, it can be seen as not scumhunting. At least that's what happened to me in my previous game.

[MochaMan]

@mykonian (and others if you want to answer), say someone is bad and you think they would be detrimental later in the game. Would policy lynching be acceptable? Or should we try and help the noob and lynch if and only if we read scum?

Sorry if the question is worded strangely, I can reiterate if you ask.

[MochaMan]

There's two ways I read this question, so I'll answer it both ways in one response. Hopefully.

If I don't make that post and a PR gets lynched, I feel guilty for not saying anything.

If I make the post and people say "Woah chill out. We aren't going to lynch him", then I am just seen as overcautious and apparently scummy. I'm okay dying if it means a power role doesn't get lynched, but of course. I would love to lynch scum like everyone else.

If I don't make that post and people unvote, I say "phew. Close one"

If I make the post and he claims whatever he claims, I assess his claim and see if he is scum or not.

I would rather be too safe when it comes to that post to make sure we all know who is potentially being lynched than not being safe and some newbie quickhammers him. I had not considered other more experienced players seeing this mistake like I did and unvoting because of it. It was a case of tunnel vision I guess. The thought of others unvoting was not significant enough for me not take action.

As a town, I generally go and do what I think is right, regardless of whether or not it makes me look scummy. That only comes into play if someone is pressuring me and I have to asses my past posts. The argument that "if I did something else it would make me look bad" is generally not a good one from my point of view.

I know this is WIFOM, but it doesn't seem like I would make my note of no quick hammering so obvious if I wanted there to be some newbie quickhammer mistake. (Then comes the argument "Well then wouldn't scum want to do that to act as town" which turns to "well maybe town did it anyway knowing he would look scummy for doing it, meaning he is telling the truth" and then "Wouldn't that be what scum wants you to think" and for those new to MafiaScum, that is WIFOM).

An argument held against that is that if you're scum, and you don't want your partner to quickhammer.

[MochaMan]

SE is a technical term, but I understand that status comes with some responsibility.

That wasn't the point, I was trying to mention that you clearly have past experience on this site and that 'mistake' isn't something I'd expect from an experienced town.

[MochaMan]

@jachawk, sorry to pull you away from tojam2, but could you post your thoughts on some of the other players?

[MochaMan]

Otherwise, unless you lynch me, I fear you are stuck with me

[MochaMan]

Woah, I'd very much like to hear from Lia's point of view on this first.

[MochaMan]

Depends how you look at it. I don't mind the hawk wagon, I can easily see him being scum. 4 people thought the same. That's enough.

I don't mind it either, but it feels uncomfortable to have a lynch when a player hasn't even joined the game yet.

[MochaMan]

The OMGUS is so real. How did I turn you into 'easy lynch bait'?

[MochaMan]

I'd also like to point out that tojam didn't put you at L-1

[MochaMan]

No idea. But is that relevant right now?

[MochaMan]

IMO thinking about scumteams when it isn't MYLO

or there isn't a confirmed mafia yet

is pretty useless, especially when it's day 1 and not everyone has joined yet.

EBWOP

[MochaMan]

How did I turn you into 'easy lynch bait'?

[MochaMan]

UNVOTE: I don't even know what's happening in this game anymore.

[MochaMan]

@HawkLeader

How did I turn you into 'easy lynch bait'?

[MochaMan]

As for now I'll throw my vote on whoever I think is scummiest
VOTE: tojam2
I didn't like his reasoning for voting hawkleader nor his claim.
I'm only going to vote between the two(hawkleader3 and tojam2). Giving the mafia 2 claims for the night would be very dangerous. But I've never witnessed it myself, so I can only speculate.

[MochaMan]

@mod, can we get a prod on Ruku and Natsu?

[MochaMan]

@hawkleader3

@HawkLeader

How did I turn you into 'easy lynch bait'?

[MochaMan]

I think mochaman has voted tojam to counter my argument that he is partnered with tojam, but it isn't going to work

If you think tojam2 is scum, go ahead and vote him then. I promise I won't move my vote

[MochaMan]

Just a heads up, noticing the time. I'm not going to be here for the last ~8 hours before the deadline, but if I can wake up in time hopefully I'll be there for the last half an hour or so.

[MochaMan]

Woah, didn't expect it to be so soon. Especially without a claim, and that wagon looks real scummy.

[MochaMan]

Yes, the wagon did look scummy so why did you wait until

after

the hammer to point that out?

Woah, didn't expect it to be so soon.

[MochaMan]

So your implying that scum is on the later votes of the wagon?

I'm not sure I follow

[MochaMan]

So your implying that scum is on the later votes of the wagon?

I'm not sure I follow

If you didn't mention the scum on the first votes of the wagon I would think the scummy votes were the last 2/3?

Meaning you and Ruku? I was hoping to focus on tojam2 more without taking the pressure off Lia.

[MochaMan]

Yeah, the lines are really starting to blur to me for Tojam2. He has been making repeated town-slips, which I'm still not sure are due to absolute noobishness or if they're planned.

Looking back at the chart, it seems like we're in a very bad spot. With a Jailkeeper gone, that means we either have nothing but vanilla townies, or the only power role is bulletproof with a mafia roleblocker. Can the roleblocker stop the bulletproof vest from applying? Because if they can, then that means their roleblocker is just going to keep blocking the same target that they attack, which brings us right back to not having power roles. I'm assuming it works like that, or is there a rule that a passive ability can't be roleblocked?

Another role question: If the Jailkeeper actually visited a mafia member, would that have prevented the kill or anything? I was kind of just wondering if we could maybe deduce innocence of someone by guessing who PC may have went for.

I believe the roleblocker cannot block a bulletproof vest.
Also from what I can remember, if the jailkeeper jails one mafia, the other can still make a kill.

[MochaMan]

Yeah, the lines are really starting to blur to me for Tojam2. He has been making repeated town-slips, which I'm still not sure are due to absolute noobishness or if they're planned.

If you wouldn't mind, could you point out the town-slips that I seem to be missing?

[MochaMan]

And Mocha, don't give the game away like in 261.

How did I give the game away?

[MochaMan]

don't say, no matter the circumstance, who you're trying to apply pressure to.

Why?

[MochaMan]

I almost forgot. @hawkleader3

@hawkleader3

@HawkLeader

How did I turn you into 'easy lynch bait'?

[MochaMan]

@Mochaman the answer to this question is irrelevant because I'm not voting for you because of that reason, and me telling you this reason does not help the scum hunting anymore, so I chose to ignore it until you forgot about it and moved on to more important tasks. Which you had for a period of time. I was wondering if light suspicion casted on you would affect your scum hunting in any way if I ignored you.

This is a ridiculously scummy reply.

[MochaMan]

Sorry I haven't been talking much, things have been picking up with work and school.

The thing I am trying to work out is how the mafia knew PC was a power role. Was it really random chance that they hit our one power role, or in the case of the column, our best power role? The way I see it, PC was a poor night kill target because he was looking like he was going to get himself lynched soon anyways. He was making enemies with a lot of people over little stuff, I guess to apply pressure. It's actually kind of funny to think of how Mocha or Tojam would react to him coming out with a Jailerkeeper claim and calling someone out.

During Day 1, I kind of assumed that mykonian was a power role, which I alluded to in a couple other posts. I didn't want to spell it out, but I definitely didn't want to lynch him Day 1 because of two majors reasons:

1. He is the IC, and I believe this makes him an HVT. The mafia would benefit to get rid of the more experienced players. Therefore, I wanted to see if he would be a lightning rod for a night kill, which would be impossible if we lynched him.
2. I thought he was a power role.

The reason I thought he was a power role is this:
He was working himself up to be one of the scummiest players in the game during Day 1. Sure, Jachawk and hawkleader were lurking, PC was mouthing off one-liners at people, Tojam was being Tojam, and I don't know what Lia was doing, but it somehow got her rallied against. But I felt like mykonian was drawing a lot of heat for the purpose of making himself a scum-read, which would give him the time he needed to use a PR ability.

Needless to say, I'm still quite surprised by PC's flip. It still makes sense why PC acted that way, for the very reason I outlined above. But it makes me more suspicious about mykonian.

But still, how did they know about PC?

I'm going to post here what my next steps are: I'm going to try and look at another game from mykonian, and I'm going to look at PC's iso again to see if I missed anything.

A question I would like to ask to everyone, who was your prediction on the nightkill after Lia flipped green?
I thought it was going to be either me, ruku, or mykonian.

Something about this post seems insincere. I can't put my finger on it though.
Phantom was the most blatant about being scummy, and if you look through his past games, he was at least a bit more involved and a little more subtle than this one.

I thought that either Phantom, Ruku, or Myko would die during the night. Natsu, and I were possible, but less probable, and Jachawk, tojam2 and hawkleader3 had no chance in dying that night.

[MochaMan]

Not sure if mykonian wanted to make himself a scum read ....
Also, why would he need time to use a PR ability?

I guess in some cases, a town would purposely make themselves more scummy, so that the chances of them dying during the night are lowered. This would allow them to make better use of their power if they were something like a cop, or doctor. So long as they aren't lynched during the day.

[MochaMan]

A question for anyone who can answer:
Does a jailed mafia prevent them from posting/viewing their nightchat?

[MochaMan]

I strongly suspect that PC targeted you with his jail ability.

What makes you say that?

[MochaMan]

@Ruku, I think you'll find I pick up on most abbreviations WHEN THE IC EXPLAINS THEM, like LYLO.

That's funny

@Natsu: Yes, you are too poorly uninformed, so read the wiki!!!

[MochaMan]

I'm quite confused as why people thought I was going to get nightkilled. You don't get nightkilled with so much suspicion around. I may be an IC, that's not a guaranteed night kill target

Out of everyone, I thought you were the most informative of all your posts and most well backed up.
The post about Ruku using RNG, and the one about me stepping back are good examples.
So you would seem to be the obvious answer to nightkill as I feel like you would be able to point out newbie mistakes and scum-slips more than anyone in this game.

[MochaMan]

@Mochaman your two scum subjects are at L-2. Are you still deciding which one to vote on or are you waiting on purpose for a claim?

Both of you claimed already. There have also been a few people rarely posting today. I don't want to push either of you to L-1, we still have time.

[MochaMan]

Tojam2 and a hawk

I would be very surprised if hawkleader3 and tojam2 were both scum.

[MochaMan]

Why is that?

Take a look at their ISOs. They scumread each other so much, I'd be very surprised if they were bussing.
They were on each others wagons, hawkleader3 asked for a claim from tojam, and the fact that they're voting for each other now.

You still have yet to answer my question though.

I strongly suspect that PC targeted you with his jail ability.

What makes you say that?

[MochaMan]

@Ruku, some reads from you would be nice as well.

[MochaMan]

Alright, so it turns out that a jailkept mafia will be able to participate in the night QT (I think that's what it's called).

Which means that the read boils down to whether or not

I do question why both scum didn't kill.

was a lie.

hawkleader3, mykonian, Natsu. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that you think it's a lie.
I'm still conflicted here, because his one newbie game he only replaced in on the last day, and in that blitz that he played, each mafia member got a kill.
So do you think as mafia, tojam2 would be able to pick up on doing something like a townslip?

[MochaMan]

I'm still conflicted here, because his one newbie game he only replaced in on the last day, and in that blitz that he played, each mafia member got a kill.

It should also be noted that he played as mafia, and participated in killing during the night along with some other mafia members.

[MochaMan]

I'd like to repeat that natsu should sheep me if he indeed saw sense in thinking tojam was scummy. I'd rather have a partner on the wagon than a supporter off it.

Would you mind elaborating?

[MochaMan]

"jachawk is w/e for me" is triggering alarms. The biggest lurker is just whatever to you?

I feel kind of the same about jachawk though. A lot of his posts are hit and miss for me. While he was very lurky during day 1, and still is a bit now. He makes good points every now and then. For a while I thought Lia was right in the mafia being a pair of hawks, but right now all we can do is wait and see. For the time being however, hawkleader3 is at the top of my scumlist with no close second place.
VOTE: hawkleader3

[MochaMan]

"Thankfully we're at a stage where we can afford to sacrifice someone to prove/disprove scum." Tojam2

My initial reaction to this was that it may well have been the scummiest thing said all game. After all, I already spelled out that we are in LyLo if we hit a town again. It seemed like he was just trying to push us towards that 3 town and 2 mafia outcome by offering up such a gambit. But after thinking about it, I think he may have just been saying this in the literal sense. Technically, we wouldn't lose the game on the spot if we lynch town again, but I think that would make things unrealistically difficult. I think I've already established how I don't want to see Tojam around during a LyLo scenario, or the subsequent 2 town vs. 1 maf that would follow.

But Tojam, could you elaborate on your "if X is Y, Z is W" scenarios? I'm not quite sure I follow.

What I think tojam2 was trying to get across was that whether or not we hit a scum, we can almost certainly deduce who is and isn't during day 3, hence "if X is Y, Z is W" scenarios. But I can't say I agree with this.

Could you elaborate on that MochaMan? I have hawkleader as a slight scum lead, and I definitely trust you as town at this point.

I'll build up a big spiel and a harder look at hawkleader3 (and a few others) and get back to you on that one. (Probably within the day, I just woke up ) No one looks quite as scummy right now as he does fmpov.

[MochaMan]

hawkleader3

@Mochaman the answer to this question is irrelevant because I'm not voting for you because of that reason, and me telling you this reason does not help the scum hunting anymore, so I chose to ignore it until you forgot about it and moved on to more important tasks. Which you had for a period of time. I was wondering if light suspicion casted on you would affect your scum hunting in any way if I ignored you.

A little earlier I said that this reply was 'ridiculously scummy', I'll expand on that now. By this point in post#280, I had already brought up this question 5 times. I initially thought that you had missed it, but choosing to withhold your thoughts under the reason that 'it's irrelevant' doesn't come from the mindset of a town. hawkleader3 also said that he scumread me because

Mochaman and tojam are scum and they easily flipped you guys into believing that asking for a claim too early is scummy in every way and mocha turned me into easy lynch bait whole tojam waited until the wagon was at L-2 before he jumped on. Perfect timing.

But since that isn't reason he's scumreading me, he has yet to provide any explanation for any of his reads. He's clearly more more inclined to ask people for their thoughts over sharing his own. I would be very surprised if he flipped town.

jachawk
I think I share thoughts with mykonian in that I don't see his lurking too be too scummy. He's a bit more nit picky, but he's pointing out things that I haven't seen before and doesn't seem to be afraid to post his thoughts every now and then. His 353 is pretty scummy (as Ruku has pointed out). But it also seems like something I would say even as a town.

[MochaMan]

Mocha, what's your read on mykon?

Hard to say. I don't like this push on him right now however. It really sounds like you're trying to dictate his reads for him.

[MochaMan]

I think it's pretty good.

[MochaMan]

4 hours left..

[MochaMan]

Well we have 17 hours to go. I really can't see Mykonian being scum, the pushes on him are real flimsy. Anything form Maestro would be nice before night 2. But since I don't see anything else happening, I'm going to leave my vote on my strongest read. I'll probably be there an hour before the deadline, but people need to sleep so I'll be absent around 9 hours before the deadline. I don't think I would mind a jachawk lynch, but a (former) hawkleader3 lynch is ideal for me.

[MochaMan]

Maestro only has 2 votes on him right now. He's at L-2

[MochaMan]

@Zaicon, there's 6 alive.

[MochaMan]

That's what I thought too, but I wasn't sure.
I'm the bulletproof. I got shot probably.

Any counterclaims?

[MochaMan]

You probably want to cool it on your vote till we hear back from everyone in case there's a counter claim.

[MochaMan]

I think I'll wait on Jachawk to comment before deciding on who to vote.

[MochaMan]

I'll start off by saying that I don't think Ruku is scum.

By now I think we should be seriously considering mafia teams, but of course our usual scumhunting methods will also be just as effective.

[MochaMan]

I don't think tojam is scum for the lack of a votecount, and Maestro not noticing.

[MochaMan]

Anybody got any questions for me? Leftover from yesterday, I think some people were mentioning shit that hawk did that somebody asked him about and he ignored, or something like that. Has everybody posted to be sure we know nobody's CCing?

Nah, you're not hawkleader, and I don't think you can read minds. So no questions for you from me for now. But just a headsup, my reads from yesterday haven't changed. Meaning I still read you as scum.

Everyone's posted I believe.

[MochaMan]

I won't be able to post for the next while.
I think Natsu and Maestro are scum together (even before Mykonian had voted Natsu.)
Back in day 2 I figured it was either Hawkleader & Natsu, or Ruku and Jachawk. Leaving tojam2 and Mykonian. (For reasons I'm too tired and lazy to explain, but will in a few days. Take a look at their ISOs and hopefully you'll see where I'm getting at.)
Neither tojam2 nor Mykonian had been particularly towny nor scummy in my eyes. tojams vote is a bit of a dangerous wildcard I think.
Part of the reasoning for my read on Natsu is that many of his posts don't seem to be coming from a town mindset and have been sheeping many arguments.
I think Maestro is scum because he took over hawkleader3s spot and his hammer on Mykonian doesn't particularity help him.

Ruku and Jachawk have just been much less scummy than Maestro(hawkleader) and Natsu.

[MochaMan]

@Maestro, can I get your read on Natsu and Ruku?

[MochaMan]

@Ruku, 1 shot BP
Sorry for the inactivity guys. Mid terms are coming up real fast. I just finished two, and I have three left to go.
I PMed the mod to replace out sometime yesterday.
Good luck town!