Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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VOTE: Gamma Emerald
Choo choo! That's L-2!
Sorry for the lateness. I will post my IC rant in a bit.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Actually, I like the Gamma Emerald wagon(for reasons other than the fact that it's a page 1 wagon, that is). His enthusiastic tone seems forced.
@Pep: I like early pressure wagons. I think it's a great way to kickstart the game and get the ball rolling, as well as teasing reactions out of people. What about you?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Hi, I’m Accountant, your friendly neighbourhood Inexperience-Challenged player, or IC. This means that I have a few games under my belt, so I know the ins and outs of mafia and can show you the ropes. For those of you who hate reading long rants, or have read a similar post already, check out the link:
A Beginner’s Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia
Anyway, as the IC, it’s my job to teach you theory concepts, which means I will never lie about theory questions. Ever.
Before we start the game proper, I’d like to cover a few key concepts.
Hammering, Lynching and L-1
When the number of votes on a player exceeds half the number of players for that game, that player is lynchedinstantlyand the Day ends. For example, we have 9 players. If that means the hammer is 5, so if there were to be 5 votes on someone, that player would be lynched. Do not recklessly hammer, especially early in the game, or you’ll risk accidentally lynching town members and cutting short discussion time.
The concept of L-X is used to indicate how many votes a player is to hammer. L-1 means 1 vote to hammer, L-2 means 2 votes to hammer and so forth. So for this game, if someone were to get 4 votes, they would be at L-1. When you place the vote that puts someone at L-1(for example, if someone has 3 votes and you’re putting the 4th vote down, with a hammer of 5), you should usually announce it with a statement like “He’s at L-1”, so people don’t accidentally hammer. Even more importantly, it means that mafia can’t hammer a town member and then claim ignorance the next day.
If someone is at L-1 and you want to hammer him, you should usually state “intent to hammer”, which means “I want to lynch you”. When you do this, you can also ask for a role claim. That way, if the player is a power role being mislynched, he can claim before you place the hammering vote, and thus save himself.
LyLo
LyLo is the shortened form of a phrase which means “lynch or lose”. The simplest form of LyLo is 3 players, 2 of whom are vanilla townies and the last being a mafia goon. Then, it’s easy to see that if they do not lynch, the mafia goon will kill one of them at night, stalemating the lynch the next day, and killing the last town member on Night 2 – although the mod will usually recognize this and end the game early instead of dragging it out.
When town is in LyLo, it’s important not to carelessly vote like you would on any other day, because of the potential for a mafia coordinated hammer(a “quickhammer”, happening before anyone else can react). Let’s say we have LyLo with 3 Vanilla Townies and 2 Mafia Goons. One of the vanilla townie carelessly puts his vote on another VT. This allows the two mafia goons to instantly rush in and simultaneously vote that VT, bringing his vote count to 3 in a game of 5 players, which is a hammer and loss for the town.
It’s good practice to try to recognize LyLo situations when you see them, but in Newbie games a more experienced player will usually point out that it’s LyLo and caution people from recklessly voting. Learning how to deal with LyLo is a very important part of playing mafia, and it comes up more often than you might think.
RVS
We are currently in the RVS, or Random Voting Stage. As none of us has any idea who is mafia(well, except the mafia members themselves, but they’re hardly going to admit it), we’re mostly poking around and slinging votes like hot curry at a food fight, trying to provoke reactions, start a discussion and basically probe around to try and determine player’s alignments.
As it is theRandomVoting Stage, it’s common for players to vote for very silly reasons, such as “your avatar is ugly” or “your username has too many numbers in it”. Don’t worry, they don’t have a grudge against you or anything. It’s just part of RVS. Without RVS, it would be a lot harder to get the game moving.
Conclusion
Thank you for joining this newbie game, and I hope that all of us will have fun playing, win or lose. If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask me. I’m an IC, so it’s my job to be active and respond to questions from newer players. I live in Singapore, which makes my timezone GMT+8, so don’t be surprised if I answer in the middle of the night or appear to be inactive at high noon(I’m probably sleeping).
Have fun and good luck!
- AccountantThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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You were enthusiastic in the genuine "let's get this show on the road" way, not the current "!!!" way. It's often easy to do the latter while trying to fake the former.
@ny: What were your reasons for trying to post a reads list so early in the game? I'm not asking you to justify it; I'm asking you to describe your mindset and what you were hoping to achieve with it.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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What, really? You have a scumread on every other player in the game?In post 29, Ramcius wrote:hm, it's hard to choose, only 1 vote and 8 people i would like to voteThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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What makes you think I will be doing all the work? Heck, nydushermain has already begun generating content, though I question the validity of a page 1 reads list. Still!
Why do you townlean Gamma though? I can definitely understand nullreading him, but he hasn't done anything that couldn't be trivially faked by scum.
Also, @Rancius and nydushermain, you two might want to consider grabbing an avatar. It helps people easily pick out who's saying what, so it prevents mix-ups.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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@Van: Why are wagons scummy? Since Town cannot kill at night, we can only hunt down and kill mafia members by wagoning and lynching them. Furthermore, one of the best ways to hunt mafia is to exert pressure on them. In a calm environment, mafia can blend in easily, but in an environment where there are lots of threats and pressure, mafia are more likely to slip up and make a mistake. In this case, wagons are a useful tool to generate this pressure.
I think wagons are way more useful than they are harmful. So how can they be scummy?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I agree wagons without good reason are usually scummy, except of course in special cases like RVS. However, can you clearly explain why a wagon full of sheeps is scummy? Are town more likely to sheep scummy wagons?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I won't deign to answer for Ramcius, but I do not believe this is sheeping. For example, if someone said they were the Cop and that X was scum and voted them, and I voted X, that is not sheeping. I think sheeping would be where you vote a player not because you think the reasoning they are scum is strong but because you simply want to vote someone, or you trust the other person who voted them.In post 41, Mewtaph wrote:sheeping (following another player's vote with your own) a scumtellThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I agree that scum tend to want to hide in the middle of wagons on town. However, the mere fact that someone is on position 3 in a wagon does not indicate that the wagon itself is scummy.In post 42, Van_Veacesalv_Dulca wrote:You are in position 3, primacy and recency don't apply there, so it would be the easiest place for scum to hide and avoid attention right? I thought that was why wagons are or at least can be scummy. That changes if it is a confirmed scum wagon though which this certainly isn't.
owoThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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This looks okay on paper, but in practice that's not what happens. Since role assignments are random, townies are not a homogenized group - there will inevitably be aggressive or bullheaded people selected as townies by the luck of the draw. These aggressive or bullheaded people are likely to then push wagons fearlessly on people, without caring whether or not it's a mislynch. Or perhaps it's not either of those traits, it's stubbornness; the town member isn't afraid to push wagons without fear of mislynch because they're absolutely sure that the target is mafia.In post 47, Ramcius wrote:if you give them semi-good reason, and scum have easier to fake some reason to call someone scum on slip, town are more reluctant to call someone scum, no town want push ML wagon, while scum know exactly they are pushing ML wagon and they are more confident in doing so
Or perhaps scum are very shy and do not dare to do something bold like lead a lynch on someone who will flip town. Or they want to blend in and don't want the scrutiny that the leader of a wagon on town gets.
As you can see, there are lots of different playstyles, so it's extremely shaky to call someone town or scum based solely on something like "whether or not they pushes a wagon". What we can do instead is look at the wagons themselves and see if they are supported by sound reasoning.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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@Van: Do you agree with my post 45? Why or why not?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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If you distrust all wagons on principle, what is your suggested method of lynching scum?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Oh, this is my error. I mixed you up with Van, who apparently distrusts all wagons.
Well, that's not an unreasonable stance. Being wary of sheep wagons is only natural. But why do you completely discount the possibility that sheep wagons may be on scum? Consider: perhaps a confident and skilled townie finds who they think is scum, town sheeps them, and then the target is actually scum. That doesb't sound that unlikely.
It's also interesting that you think I'm setting you up. Firstly, what makes you think that? Secondly, if you really think that, why haven't you voted me?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Ramcius is probably town. 61 has the type of paranoia I see from newbtown a lot, especially newbtown who's terrified of being schmoozled by scum(see his speech about how we should be wary of scum trying to lead town into mislynches).
@Van: So, to be clear, you think that forming lynches on players is okay, but you think mindlessly hopping onto wagons is bad, right?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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@Ramcius: You say Charloux is trying to get towncred, and this is scummy. Why is it scummy?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.In post 68, nydushermain wrote:I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.
Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.
Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.
Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.
There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.In post 68, nydushermain wrote:The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."
I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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While I'm flattered that you think I'm that good, there is no secret treasure trove of hidden information that I have obtained from a 3-page conversation about sheeping wagons that I am hiding from you.In post 72, nydushermain wrote:I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.
There is no change in perspective. I refer to townies as "we" or "town". These words mean the same thing. Similarly I refer to mafia as "they" or "mafia". Once more, they mean the same thing. If I use one synonym over the other, it does not mean anything special. The choice is arbitrary.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I disagree. Charloux did not say that you are rolefishing. Charloux assumed that you intended to obtain the list of roles in the game through claiming - because that is the only way to get such a list. In this case, he did not try to say you were rolefishing, but rather just said that it would be stupid to claim immediately. If Charloux was scum trying to frame you, don't you think he would have directly called you scummy, and voted you, rather than simply saying it was stupid and that we couldn't do it?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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This is incorrect.
A common-sense interpretation of the sentence:
"If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?"
Tells us that Charloux was not directly accusing you of rolefishing, but rather pointing out - albeit in an unnecessarily hostile manner - that what you propose is unfeasible, because it would lead to PRs getting killed during the night. Note the use of the word "we" - of course, Charloux wouldn't be accusing himself of rolefishing, so it's more likely that he is speaking of the town as a whole outing the roles. In other words, he is criticizing any course of action that might lead to town as a whole outing their roles, rather than accusing any single person of participating in a scummy action. Do you see the difference here?
Note, too, that Charloux definitely did not vote you for rolefishing. This is the given reason for Charloux voting you.
Thus, Charloux makes a few substantive accusations against you:I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot.
1) That your thought process is scummy.
2) That this is due to scum trying to adopt an alter-ego, creating an inconsistent and shaky mindset.
3) That if 2) is not the case then it is due to you, as scum, knowing that you are bad at dealing with pressure and pre-emptively attacking people who might exert pressure on you.
This is the crux of why Charloux voted you - that's why he wrote it in the post immediately before voting you. After seeing this, I think it's unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that Charloux is voting you for rolefishing. If you want to continue asserting that Charloux is attempting to frame you for rolefishing, you'll have to show two things: a) where Charloux said that you were rolefishing and b) Where Charloux said that he was voting you due to your rolefishing.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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What makes you think we are in RVS? Quite a few substantive accusations have been thrown around.In post 75, DeathByWobbuffet wrote:UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
I don't know why everyone decided to jump on the bandwagon with me, but I don't feel comfortable with having someone at L-2 on page 3 while we're still basically in RVS. Will be back with some thoughts on the game so far later, a bit busy now.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I think that your statement about me talking like all my actions are made in the benefit of town is not a good reason to scumread me. It is not a good reason to townread me either. Suppose I were town. Then all my actions would definitely be made in the benefit of town. Thus, I would talk that way. However, if I was scum, I would want to fake being town, so I would also talk that way. Therefore we see that I will definitely talk as if my actions were made for the benefit of the townIn post 82, Pepchoninga wrote:I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.
FoS: Accountantregardless of my actual alignment. In this case, it would be incorrect to try to infer one alignment from that piece of evidence alone, since it's a given that I would do it no matter whether I was town or scum.
It is difficult for me to pressure those that I believe are not town. Why? The reason is simple - I don't have many people that I strongly believe am not town. There is the issue of Gamma Emerald, but there's only so long you can talk about tone before it simply because two people yelling back and forth aimlessly. For everyone else, I haven't seen anything else that I think is worth chasing up on. The reason for this is, as I've explained before, a large part of the content these past 4 pages has been completely nonindicative of alignment. I think that a lot of the activity so far has been talk about mafia theory or people making very simple mistakes. I do not blame them for making these mistakes, because it is a newbie game. But since a newbie scum and newbie town are both going to make mistakes, it's hard for me to determine whether these mistakes about the game(for example not being aware that the only way to get the list of roles is to massclaim) are from scum or town. That's why I don't have that many scum reads - yet. I fully expect that I will develop more scum reads as the game goes on, and you should definitely call me out for it if we're 20 pages in and I still don't have any scum reads.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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On the other hand, you're only showing Charloux from a mafia perspective, while ignoring his actions from a town perspective. I think it's important that all possible perspectives should be brought up so Charloux's actions can be clearly examined in the light of those perspectives. In this manner, we can clearly see if the mafia perspective is significantly stronger, and if it is then we have ourselves a good reason to scumread Charloux. I could definitely see Charloux doing this as scum, but since I can see Charloux doing this as town as well, it's difficult for me to say confidently what Charloux's alignment is, solely based on that.In post 84, Ramcius wrote:You clearly try show Charloux only from town perspective, and ignore his actions from mafia perspectiveThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Charloux's response was to vote Ramcius, then say he doesn't see any town mentality in Ramcius' posts. After that, his next two posts have been questioning Ramcius. I don't see Charloux backing off here.In post 89, nydushermain wrote:I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I don't blame you for not knowing this, but it's open knowledge that I enjoy playing scum immensely, for example here:In post 98, Ramcius wrote:another slip? scum usually try be passive, and even if they put effort, scum always avoid give content, and you try convince Gamma opposite, and how you know Accountant enjoy playing scum? He told in mafia PT?
I'm just the sort of player who enjoys knowing more than I should, and so I like being a mafia memberIn post 125, Accountant wrote:I want to win a scummy for best mafia player because I love playing scum
VOTE: DeathByWobuffetThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Gamma, talk to me about VVD. I have a nullread on him and I want to know why you think he's town.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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VOTE: CharlouxIn post 107, Charloux wrote:@Ramcius: If you bite when you are attacked, i explode taking down everybody with me; So i suggest not going on a Jihad because of something stupid as your pride.
I think that this statement is doing precisely what he accused Ramcius of doing.
In post 87, Charloux wrote:I'll treat your comments as "get the fuck off my back, don't ask why" for today then.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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DBW, who is your strongest scum read?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Alliance?In post 117, Pepchoninga wrote:passiveness contributed to him trying to protect his allianceThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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That's contextually untrue. 87 was clearly a response to Ramcius' 86. Explain clearly how anyone could possibly interpret 87 as asking me for my opinion, and explain what you were attempting to achieve with it.In post 129, Charloux wrote:I'd be troubled if you could, since it was meant for only Accountant to understand. I asked for his opinion in #87, and since he didn't respond, i added the last sentence of #107. I'm basically gambling that he is town, and it seems it backfired.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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I don't buy that your town read on me was so strong that you'd be willing to risk tipping me off to the fact that he might be a PR. Furthermore, you indicated earlier that such a mentality was in fact indicative of scum and not PR.
I would also like to us how you intended to bait me with that question. Suppose I am scum. What did you expect me to do in response to the question, and how would that help you catch me?I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot. I don't see town mentality there.
Please clearly explain this discrepancy.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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And what would your plan be for the next day? Would you have told the town "hey, I think Accountant is scum because he didn't respond to a post I made all the way back in page 4, and then the PR died"? No, I think that's a shaky plan, and I'd expect you to come up with something better if it was really a plan to ensnare scum!Accountant.In post 134, Charloux wrote:If you were scum i expected you to feign ignorance and then just try and NK/RB him. If you said something like "I think so" I'd treat you as town.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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If you're trying to figure out whether he's scum or a PR, I'm not sure why you'd vote him.In post 134, Charloux wrote:No, you are null to me. And why would i say something like: His personality is indicative of him being scum or a PR? What would happen if i did? I needed a second opinion and you looked like a good choice.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Unfortunately, claiming that you have secret motives is not something that makes me think you are town.In post 137, Charloux wrote:Sorry, but i won't reveal all my cards without a fight.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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83 is not WIFOM. WIFOM is saying "I'd do X as mafia and Y as town", but I am claiming that I'd do X as both mafia and town. It's the opposite of WIFOM. WIFOM isn't scummy either, unless it's used to obscene excess.In post 147, Van_Veacesalv_Dulca wrote:I still hold my suspicions on Charloux, and Accountant, though could someone correct me if I am wrong on Accountants [quote="In post 83 but is this an example of wine in front of me?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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This is not the way I scumhunt. I focus on my scumreads first, like Charloux.In post 154, Mewtaph wrote:@Accountant: I was rereading for things that feel off to me and I don't feel great about your 69 where you basically say, "Mew is trying to game-solve = moderately townie." It just seems a bit lazy to me that you aren't really bothering to sort me even now like I kind of expected. I understand that you posted that partly to explain yourself to nydus early on even though the reads were premature, but I'm assuming these reads are still reasonably accurate. I really don't like how you and Gamma aren't trying to actively sort out your hard nulls + moderate townreads, that may just be a personal preference but I put a high priority on trying to sort these reads into essentially anything else ASAP.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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What is this other reasons?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Well, I'm very tired and I just had a very tiring week. I am not in the mood to play ISO games. Please link to the exact post where you outline your reasons.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.In post 177, nydushermain wrote:If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.
nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.
This fits with your lining up lynches on DBW - you want to be able to sit on me at the end of the day and NOT on the DBW wagon. Yet, at the same time, you're letting the wagon go forward while telling everyone why DBW is town and the wagon is misguided:
I'm not saying we're lynching DBW but he has 3 votes now and 5 votes, from what I understand, is an autolynch.
This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. AndThere are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.thenyou have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.
If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.
VOTE: nydushermainThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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That's a bad conclusion. The reason for this pattern is simple: I change my playstyle every game. Mood affects my playstyle. The strength of the reads I have affect my playstyle(if someone is being outrageously scummy, I'll be much more aggressive). The players I'm playing with affect my playstyle(if I'm playing with Thor, I become less of a town leader, because Thor is a better town leader than me and having two leaders in one game is excessive and creates horrible messes if they clash). Meta affects my playstyle(I know Nahdia looks out for me bussing when I'm scum, so if I'm scum against Nahdia I bus less). There are probably some unknown or subconscious factors that affect my playstyle that I don't even know about. It's a bad idea to try to draw a read on me from something like looking at my past games' tone.In post 195, nydushermain wrote:I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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There are 2 scum in this game, not 3. And that line of reasoning is bad. If I saw a lynch on a lurker that I think is bad while my top scum read is ignored, I'm not going to go "hmm, let's wait for a flip, maybe I'm wrong about the lurker", and that's not what any reasonable townie would think. This is an excuse generated by scum.In post 196, nydushermain wrote:Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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No, what I am accusing you of is beingIn post 204, nydushermain wrote:Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.inconsistentwith your words and actions. You have explicitly said you think the DBW lynch isn't good:
And you have explicitly said you think my lynchI think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.isgood:
So it makesI think that an accountant wagon would be goodno senseto me for town!nydush to happily lay back and let the bad wagon go through over the good one while smiling and nodding and saying "well, maybe I'm wrong. Let's see how he flips!" and saying "of course, if he flips town, so-and-so need to be lynched, winky face".There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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You're right. You aren't going to "berate" them, you're going to lynch them.In post 202, nydushermain wrote:And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.
In post 177, nydushermain wrote:If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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I don't buy that at all. In a situation such as yours, a townie would be trying to show everyone how scummy I am so they'll agree with you that I am scummier and lynch me. You would be questioning me and attacking me harshly rather than going "yeah, I said something on page 3, remember that?" Here's why - it's clear that nobody buys your analysis of why I'm scum, so if you were town who were convinced I'm scum, you want to generate new content, you want to pressure me and make me slip up and make me do stuff thatIn post 210, nydushermain wrote:The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.wouldmake town buy that I'm scum. You have absolutely no reason to rehash old stuff that people have shown they aren't convinced by(or the wagon on me would be much bigger).
You tell me you want an Accountant wagon, but you aren't showing it. You're sitting back and coasting along.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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It's not reasonable at all. Town wouldIn post 211, nydushermain wrote:So when we have many days left and I could be wrong on a lurker, you don't think it's reasonable for me to be waiting for a flip so that I can go do ISO dives and see what the interactions are with people and whoever flipped? Get out of here.neverbe in a mindset of "hoping they are wrong and trying to make the best of it" when SCUMLORD ACCOUNTANT!!! still exists and lives and breathes. Town would definitely be pushing for the lynch of someone they think is scum because as good as ISO diving a flipped player might be, lynching someone youactually think is scumisby farsuperior to any other lynch, and that is the kind of mindset that a townie attempting to catch scum would have. What you have described is the mindset of a mafia member pretending to be town and wanting mislynches to go through while trying to sell us on the idea that it's perfectly reasonable for a townie to not care if town lynches the wrong person.
You keep trying to emphasize to us how you're so filled with self-doubt and are so woeful about how you might be wrong about DBW that maybe the other townies know best after all and it's okay to see him flip - but that is completely incongruous with the certainty you have displayed about how I am scum because I use "mafia" instead of "they".There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.In post 214, nydushermain wrote:Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Show me where Pepchoninga agreed with your posts about me being scum because I said "mafia" instead of "they".There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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If we're talking about forced townslips, then I think his "there are 3 scum in the game" thing qualifies just as well.In post 217, Ramcius wrote:and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslipThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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That doesn't explainIn post 220, nydushermain wrote:The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.anything. I'm asking why you seem to not be fighting very hard against a lynch you've acknowledge yourself as suboptimal. Yes, it's not the worst lynch in the world, there's still a chance of DBW being scum. But any reasonable town who wants to win does not want "merely passable" lynches. They want thebest possible lynchevery single day. There is absolutely 0 reason for you as town to not care that the lynch that we are having is not the best possible lynch unless you don't care about town executing the best possible lynch. And only scum has that kind of thinking.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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You're going to have been more specific than that. This is very very vague.In post 233, Gamma Emerald wrote:The way ny used meta doesn't feel like a scum use, also the fact he went back after realizing his analysis was off.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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I mean, sure, that's fine. But then why does he go the trouble of pointing out how awful the DBW wagon is compared to me - and why is he sitting there talking about "when DBW flips"?In post 261, Mewtaph wrote:"I'll let the lurker wagon play out first and analyze it instead because I sure as hell am not going to stop it, I don't townread him."?
See, I get that telling someone they're scum for having scum mentality in their posts is utter BS. But this is kinda different - he's taking actions that town have no reason to take and scum have every reason to take. That signals his alignment pretty strongly to me.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I'm not convinced about this. He's spent as much time talking about who he'd lynch if/when DBW flips than actually trying to kill me.In post 263, Mewtaph wrote:It still looks like nydushermain's mind is still focused on your wagonThere's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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What does 188 answer?There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Right, and I'm struggling to understand why he would expand that standalone into more stuff about DBW, as town, rather than refocusing on me. I also think that the post as a standalone is itself scummy - it's lining up lynches.
PEdit: Why do you feel that's particularly genuine? It's not that hard to fake.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Okay I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point.
Let me summarize my case.
WHY IS NYDUSHER SCUM:
- lines up lynches
- says he wants to lynch me over DBW but looks like he doesn't really care
- tries to pass off what is essentially a gut read as a legitimate read
Now, your turn.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I get that "Mewtaph did this last time and he was town", but you haven't showed me:In post 272, Mewtaph wrote:The easiest way to understand why I think nydus is town here is to take a look at the game link here.
a) Why this is exclusive to town - ie. why this is done as town but not done as scum
b) Why you feel it's a consistent pattern enough to give hard townreads on rather than a one off thing.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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I don't buy that his weak on me is read. He's been fairly stubborn about saying that I am scum, but doesn't back it up with actions.In post 272, Mewtaph wrote:He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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read on me is weak*There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.-
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Accountant Jack of All Trades
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Okay, I'm fine with buying into this for now. Not enough to unvote, but enough to talk about other stuff. It's all a rehash at this point anyway and there's more than one scum to catch.In post 277, Mewtaph wrote:Because I've done similar things before/been thought of as scum without legitimately being reached out to, may be why I am thinking nydus of town here.There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.
You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.