Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[borkjerfkin]

hi guys

[borkjerfkin]

considering there are no investigative roles in this game, I am utterly unmoved by naked votes at daystart, especially after a scumflip

[borkjerfkin]

considering there are no investigative roles in this game, I am utterly unmoved by naked votes at daystart, especially after a scumflip

Wisdom has been scummy all game.

How much have you read?

I'm mostly caught up, but I want to get both of your (you and riddle, since you're both so charged out of the gate) conceptions of the gamestate.

[borkjerfkin]

I hope this is an example to follow my wagons in the future. As policy, you should only start wagons on people off the wagon, the day immediately after lynching scum.
Acyron and Mathdino, one of which is confirmed scum, should be our first and foremost priorities.
VOTE: Acyon

This is pseudoscience as a general premise and is really vague as it pertains to this game. How are you getting a bucket of two with confirmed scum in it?

[borkjerfkin]

God told me in a vision.

Dude:

I read your ISO. It was fucking excruciatingly difficult to read, not only because you injected this kinda fluff all the time, but that you were kinda vague even when you weren't doing that.

Mind actually playing ball?

[borkjerfkin]

Hey Bork,

The post above makes me really lean-dino town, do you agree?

I have a moderate townlean on Dino because of the way he engaged

you

pre-Victor flip.

I actually have an even more solid townread on BMWS because of it, whose angle was to immediately scrutinize your reasons for hammering and your reads. Dino was a little more bombastic and less substantive, but they both kinda read like they didn't know what Vic's flip was gonna be.

[borkjerfkin]

There have been a lot of suspicions about my slot yesterday regarding a mistake on my end regarding my Victor read.

I saw this, and I recall Mathdino being the one to push you on it, but if I also recall it required Vic to be town for it to make any sense, no?

[borkjerfkin]

it NEVER happens for Victor.

armchair meta or did you rigorously research this?

[borkjerfkin]

The mistake makes sense whether I'm town or scum.

The point is that it's not you being prescient of Vic's townflip, considering he didn't flip that.

[borkjerfkin]

Sorry for posting so quickly, but my aim is to engage. I am used to faster paced games.

Constantine I really want explanations not only of why you guarantee 1+ scum off the wagon, but also why you've narrowed 'confirmed scum' (your words) to acryon/mathdino and not any of the others who weren't on the wagon EoD

[borkjerfkin]

Unsure; do you generally like the D?

Spoiler:

sorry

[borkjerfkin]

I want a PL of myself

I guess my question to you is what's your angle here?

[borkjerfkin]

mala (OT):

Spoiler:

https://www.healthtap.com/topics/can-yo ... x-together

maybe this might help? I am not a doctor so I will not recommend any course of action

[borkjerfkin]

Done with the fluff, sorry.

Anyway, I'm a pretty big fan of your #1012. I have some niggles about Wisdom, mostly due to posting around his 740 which seemed a bit off to me compared to his earlier posting about the Vic slot and a defense that amounted to attacking others for ostensibly not considering that "Vic might be town and they're just wrong?" I'm actually having a really hard time following Wisdom's line of thought on this.

Wisdom, wouldn't mind you chiming in yourself how you got to 740 and beyond from early game Vic interactions.

It's really difficult to know since I've not really been super diligent in checking timestamps, but Wisdom seemed pretty eager to save that slot by counterwagoning other slots around it, and I think it was pretty up in the air until Mala nailed Vic at the end with regard to who was actually going to be lynched.

You're townreading Wisdom - would be interested in your expounding on the 'reads town in general' comment.

p-edit: all @Mathdino

[borkjerfkin]

What are your thoughts?

That I think it's pretty obvious that any attack on you that starts with the premise 'Riddleton is scum cause he knows Vic is town' is inapplicable to the gamestate as it stands.

Ergo I am confused why you're still worried about it.

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I love how I'm accused of bussing my someone that was so adamant to let VD speak earlier but ended up "accidentally" hammering him and going oh well afterwards.

Wasn't your position yesterday that you thought Mala was more likely scum if Vic had flipped town?

If not, what are you trying to say here?

[borkjerfkin]

Paranoia wins games for scum.

More to the point: mislynching town wins games for scum; if you're town, that pretty obviously heads the game down that path. Why are you downplaying that?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm saying the way she hammered looked more like bussing than my vote supposedly did. That's all.

What is your read on mala?

[borkjerfkin]

The mistake is still valid for Riddleton-scum; I make a contrived case for my newbie partner to bus him and swim in the towncred after. As scum, I don't really need to scumhunt that much, so all cases, ISOs and meta will be less in-depth and researched. Hence why I could have easily slipped and made a contradiction regarding my push on Victor.

May let the thread breathe a bit after this just cause that seems the kind of crowd we have, but you're moving from specifics to generalities (I don't give a shit what could have happened; I care about what

did

) and on top of that campaigning that we lynch your ostenisbly town-slot instead of doing the natural town thing which is to scumhunt and hope people see your thought process as germane and genuine.

I don't get it.

[borkjerfkin]

Not my point. It sounds like

you're

worried that you're being perceived as such and are advocating an eventual policy lynch on yourself to allay that suspicion.

[borkjerfkin]

If they both agree to it, I'd be up for lynching Wisdom and Mala in succession if the first lynch flips town or claims mason; their meta record of correctly reading each other is pretty undeniable. Just need Mala to convince me this isn't TvT.

Paging

blindmewithscience

,

borkjerfkin

, and

acryon

for their thoughts on this after Mala posts.

Phoneposting from kids birthday party, but:

I want to know your criteria for this definitely (or likely) being TvS for you such that you want to avoid the normal breadth first approach that normally leads to a healthier gamestate.

[borkjerfkin]

I totally agree. There's valid reasons that can be made about Malakittens and Victor being a scum team. Only a Newbie/Victor scum team is possible, though.

With that said, I don't like the way that you and acryon avoided the VD lynch, even going as far as to throw out counter lynches.

I cringe every time you post something like this while ostensibly supporting a mala town read. I don't get your trajectory on her or why you keep bringing this up.

[borkjerfkin]

The VD lynch sucked, nobody who was voting him ever gave any good reason for voting Victor. I hated it and wanted actual scum lynched.

This pings me a little because it's a pretty hyperbolic/sensationalist take on what actually happened (the 'sucky' lynch that flipped scum vs the 'actual scum' that is both unflipped and, as far as I can tell, you're not actually pushing anymore)

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom is 100% town. Stop.
Or try to lynch him. You'll see how much resistance you get.

Gamestate seems to be blowing that direction right now -- so if you have an actual pertinent point on that front (and these are few and far between in your ISO at large) now might be the time to make it

[borkjerfkin]

@bork I'm explaining my yesterday behavior, not my current one.

I gathered that, it's just that even so, the verbiage you used is not the take I would have on the situation given what I know now, were I in your shoes.

This might be a dead-end point; I don't know that I can say this is alignment relevant.

[borkjerfkin]

I can see that conclusion being arrived at due to the way the wagons were at the end of the day, but I also feel like that should temper any Mala scumread you have considering

1) I don't think it was a sure thing Vic was going through
2) I don't really think Mala was desperate for towncred at that point in the game

These are really the only reasons I think scum Mala might have hammered Vic and none of them really jibe with where I felt the game was on my readthrough.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Constantine

[borkjerfkin]

borkjerfkin, please explain Constantine vote. Still pretty convinced on Riddleton being scum and Constantine/Riddleton not being a pair.

He's:

1) provided pretty much no defensible arguments on anything he's done the entire game
2) is pushing vanity wagons today and is refusing to explain anything besides 'HUR SCUM DON'T BUS DUR'
3) in fact, has pretty much directly ignored multiple requests by me to explain himself

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Riddleton. He's not on my 'do not lynch' list.

BMWS, acryon, borkjerfkin, wgeurts, would like discussion on this.

I'll get up to speed on it

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I just realised: His 'scumslip' that I pointed out earlier? Well, it ONLY works if Victor is town. Since Victor flipped scum, it confirms that Riddleton just made a normal mistake there.
So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

So yes, I literally brought up this exact point (1018) and it does point to a heightened sense of how he appears in everyone's eyes, but is otherwise just plain illogical and therefore I am having a hard time saying that it isn't just null. Savvy town or scum would realize that this 'slip' was bunk after Vic's flip and would have ignored it - I think non-savvy players from either faction might do what Riddleton did.

[borkjerfkin]

Here is one of his scumgames he replaced into. His partners are Anatole and chaoslord. He starts off distancing his partner but then voting another 'scumread'. His first signature case was on acryon, but a lot of that is because of Riddleton's (also signature) hatred for NKA. His first post with both his scumpartners referenced. Scumreads one of them, sorta townreads the other. Then he outright makes a case against both his scumpartners and proceeds to powerbus the 2 of them, saying they're scumpartners, and flipping back and forth between voting them but being adamant that one of them gets lynched.

Possibly what I found weirdest about Riddleton's entrance is that he professed scumreads on both Vic and Mala, then proceeded to make a huge case on Vic and utterly ignore Mala.

[borkjerfkin]

I read Silverwolf but honestly have kinda forgotten anything I read in it since Friday night. I'll look again.

[borkjerfkin]

non-savvy

You have to be dumb

Or to be nicer, it's just sloppy play from either alignment. I don't think town have a monopoly on being sloppy.

I don't get how talking about it makes him town.

[borkjerfkin]

If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.

Aha, okay. In one of his games he did exactly this. "If [townplayer] is scum, I can see [my scumbuddy] being scum with him." Not making me feel more comfortable about Riddleton.

This is a gem of a point. This has no scum trajectory if he's talking about two town players, but does if his plan was to lynch wgeurts to get to his buddy, who he could easily back off of when the flip went the wrong way.

[borkjerfkin]

I also feel considerably better about acryon than I did going into the day (was a slot I was vacillating on quite a bit in my readthrough)

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Riddleton

[borkjerfkin]

But here's the problem. I think one of {Constantine, Riddleton} is scum. Why would Wisdom distract us from a wagon on Victor, with a wagon on another scumbuddy? The move just doesn't add up. I'm only comfortable seeing him as scum if Constantine and Riddleton are both town.

Therefore, if I had to call the scumteam, it'd be one of {Constantine, Riddleton, Wisdom}, and one of {NM, Newbie, maaaaybe Finn/bork}.

Just realize that no matter what the alignment combo of Constantine/Riddleton actually is, that what Wisdom was doing was angling a wagon away from someone who is now confirmed scum.

I realize that doesn't necessarily make him scum, but you can't go and say that this in any way had definite negative repercussions for the scumteam, considering Vic's flip.

[borkjerfkin]

my lynchpool today is probably:

Riddle
Constantine
Wisdom
Newbie

Would not surprise me if both scum were in there.

[borkjerfkin]

The rest of my play today is probably going to try to come up with compelling reasons that two of them are town

[borkjerfkin]

I doubt Riddleton is scum, I don't recall him taking any opportunity to hop off Victor. Day 1 lynches are bad for scum even if they hard bus as the "why aren't you dead? " question willl bite them in the arse eventually

If he's scum he was committed to that bus from the moment he replaced in, so I don't think that was gonna happen here.

[borkjerfkin]

To all the 'savvy' players out there, would you consider reading the game and/or checking my iso? See #1076... I said there it's possible for scum-Riddle to have made a contradiction when trying to compile an erranous case on his partner.

I don't understand how people are so willing to conaider the issue resolved... it isn't.

I'll say it again, I do not fucking understand the motivation for trying to get yourself lynched due to ostensible latent paranoia that only

you yourself

are purporting is affecting the game, because that is exactly what it seems you're trying to do.

[borkjerfkin]

Reading back my post on Wisdom sucked, he's still scum though, and if you read back d1 twilight it should be obvious why

Does this not rely on your own interpretation of Wisdom's interpretation of the gamestate since you're not reacting to anything he said post-hammer?

[borkjerfkin]

I wont stand by as others try to lynch riddleton. It is such an idiotic lynch, it's unbelievable. Actually, I'm pretty sure 90% of the players are complete newbs at this game, and it is absolutely dreadful having this become a mathdino dominated game. I do concede that I don't know this sites meta, but I know mafia in general. The silliness of everyone's argument and gameplay is astounding, and I'm baffled at these peoples ineptitude at recognizing scum.

shut up

[borkjerfkin]

I'll also explain Mala more, I'm thinking Mala and not-mafia as the scum team now.

Don't think so. They voted me together, they defend each other.. it would be ridiculous if a scumteam was so obvious.

This post fucking sucks

[borkjerfkin]

@Borkjerkin - Friendly advice, watch it. Being a jackass may be cool in some circles, but not this one.

No, if your response to people telling you you're wrong is 'you guys suck at this', you're the one who needs the attitude adjustment.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm being very quiet

I like this plan; I'm excited to be a part of it; Let's do it!

[borkjerfkin]

Anyway

VOTE: Wisdom

1287 is absolute balls and I'm not explaining why

[borkjerfkin]

I'm actually getting a lot of Constantine townvibes from this convo.

Anyway.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't care anymore, and I don't care if this is what'll make me scummy in the future. I want him out of the game.

Seriously, ignore him.

[borkjerfkin]

I'll make my case against Mala/Wisdom/NM once I've finished all general reads.

Plz don't

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Riddleton
Sorry mate, this is just going to be to good to pass up.
I can't wait for the town results

Dude just quit it please

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: Actually I forgot to comment, I actually like and agree with 1287, it's something I would've said as well...

maybe we're all just white boys that can't dance this time around then

[borkjerfkin]

I've PMed the mod so if a force replace is warranted then hopefully we'll get one.

I'm not going to allow today to end in a PL of him.

[borkjerfkin]

It's probably a scum reaction, bork.

why is scum more prone to overreaction than town?

[borkjerfkin]

My winrate is probably in the low 30s

[borkjerfkin]

It's this particular reaction I don't like.

go on...

[borkjerfkin]

seriously y'all need to shut up before people start checking out of the game

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom definitely NOT scum w/ Newbie.

[borkjerfkin]

(Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now)

But one that is apparently no longer in play since you're willing to vote him again?

[borkjerfkin]

leaning newbie town now.

[borkjerfkin]

@acryon - I'll consider what you said as now that my knee-jerk reaction has faded, but you're right in that what he's been doing is not exactly talking the talk with the amount of experience he claims to have, unless it's on some site that really does have that kind of meta and that's a dead end.

I'd prefer not to derail what's currently going on, though.

[borkjerfkin]

'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'.

lol, i'd forgotten he did that. That was kind of funny.

[borkjerfkin]

newbie and wisdom had a very specific setup oriented interaction that would never be between buddies.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes

[borkjerfkin]

I'll make my case against

Mala

/Wisdom/

NM

once I've finished all general reads.

Plz don't

?

You are in need of a reevaluation rather than an exercise in confirmation bias. Please do that instead.

[borkjerfkin]

Thoughts on my case

Your case is on town

So like I said, reevaluate

Or we can waste more time with tvt shit

[borkjerfkin]

If I start talking about wisdom there's really no going back.

As long as you have the same scum pool as me (and you do, with one erroneous addition), just keep doing your thing)

[borkjerfkin]

If Wisdom and Mala are partners, that was a damn good performance.

They're not gonna win though.

@borkjerfkin: Do you think that interaction that happened makes Newbie town, or d'ya think she could've faked it?

Leaning not faked as I said after my exchange with newbie

[borkjerfkin]

you are not a part of this conversation

[borkjerfkin]

Well, bork, considering you're telling me to "just keep doing my thing", I'm pretty sure you don't want a conversation at all

Oh for fucks sake.

Read the fucking interactions between the people wisdom has been pushing today.

[borkjerfkin]

Actually no that HoS was dumb consider acryon's prolly right about Const.

unHoS: Riddleton
HoS: borkjerfkin

until you explain.

[borkjerfkin]

At the dentist, so ill respond when back, but math that's not entirely what I asked you.

[borkjerfkin]

maybe a better question: if wisdom is acutely aware of what he said in 1287, what should he be seriously worried about that he isn't?

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah.

Anyway sorry it had to be like this but I can't abide any more distractions like what wgeurts is doing

[borkjerfkin]

Guys, I get what you're talking about and I assure you I didn't think about that at all when I posted it. I also don't think that's the case btw.

You don't think what's the case?

[borkjerfkin]

he's fucking playing dumb at this point

[borkjerfkin]

Darn you acryon, you've just said (a lot) of what was in my case on wisdom. I'll continue it anyway due to my differen't perspective.

Please read the last few pages; TIA.

[borkjerfkin]

What's the scum motivation in doing what he says I did?

There's no scum motivation in leading town on a wild goose chase / pushing lynches you know won't go through? Like what I did the last time I played this setup?

In fact

http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/KpjZBCV3DsW
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25295

I want people to at least experience how scum mindset works in this setup. Last time I played this I had the mason team narrowed down to two possible sets on D1 of a game I had just replaced into. I whiffed on the kill N1, but after that I knew who the team was exactly. It's not that hard to find a set of three masons; they have all the associatives scum have and more because they're not afraid to hard buddy each other. Scum probably knew post TTH flip. TTH was pretty fucking town though so I can't begrudge them that kill.

That didn't stop me from pushing them on subsequent days, because it 1) wastes tons of time (I am actively trying to make sure this doesn't happen anymore today because it's getting out of hand) 2) still looks like scumhunting and 3) forcing the claim allows you to make a 0 info nightkill and 4) sometimes the game just naturally moves there (this happened a lot in my case)

[borkjerfkin]

As for the masons argument, it is just wrong and I don't agree with it. Doing that may make it harder for the scum to find the masons, but it also makes it harder for the town to find scum, and the latter is much more important than the former.

Correct. Especially on Day 2.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, I saw this. Especially given this happened in twilight; why can't this be a VT drawing the NK? Why can't it be scum faking said vt (or faking a mason)?

Yeah that + the hard defending that mala & N_M have been doing to each other really points at this fake scenario

"let's just outline every possibility for everything and not try to determine whether or not it fits the situation"

a summary of wisdom's play this game

[borkjerfkin]

Considering you were willing to lynch him to save vic? Lol

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, I saw this. Especially given this happened in twilight; why can't this be a VT drawing the NK? Why can't it be scum faking said vt (or faking a mason)?

Yeah that + the hard defending that mala & N_M have been doing to each other really points at this fake scenario

Just why would masons be so obvious?
Mala is not dumb nor newbie, if she's town it makes total sense for her to try and mislead scum with such a twilight comment.
People hard defending their townreads is nothing new.

Constantine

was saying I am 100% town earlier. Are we masons too?

Considering you were willing to lynch

him

to save vic? Lol

better?

[borkjerfkin]

Consider the possibility Mala has been trying to fool scum while the real masons are people you think might be scum or even VTs. You're just going for the most

likely

answer.

fixed

[borkjerfkin]

So this has been one giant exercise in moving the goalposts, as we've gone from "I never even considered they might be masons at all" to "it's not proof she's definitely a mason because X other WIFOMy things exist to invalidate its definitiveness and I'm just considering them all therefore it's ok that i'm pushing them as scum independently of each other"

[borkjerfkin]

My point wasn't whether we're masons.

My point was that mason relationships are bidirectional, ergo your point is crap

[borkjerfkin]

She actually did this, she questioned N_M's buddying on her as she called it. Check again.

Obviously irrelevant considering you were willing to eliminate them as a team in 1287 because of all the cross-defending, sooooooo

[borkjerfkin]

Isn't it though? If it's pertinent to the mason discussion, why is it not pertinent to the scumbuddy discussion?

[borkjerfkin]

Don't think so. They voted me together, they defend each other.. it would be

ridiculous

if a scumteam was

so obvious

.

Let's not forget how hyperbolic you were here, after all.

[borkjerfkin]

So this has been one giant exercise in moving the goalposts, as we've gone from "I never even considered they might be masons at all" to "it's not proof she's definitely a mason because X other WIFOMy things exist to invalidate its definitiveness and I'm just considering them all therefore it's ok that i'm pushing them as scum independently of each other"

Yeah, and it has moved to this because you are somehow 100% confident you have found the masons and use that as any decision making. Meanwhile, I still didn't think about such a thing at all when I made the post, and it still doesn't make sense for scum to do what I did. Which you're still failing at responding to, so

My job ultimately is not to convince you you're scum

[borkjerfkin]

But since we've devolved to that impasse, I'm out for a bit.

[borkjerfkin]

To answer that for myself (scumreads being Wisdom, Riddleton, Constantine) I'll turn to

Malakittens

and acryon.

Can we convene on reasons for a BMWS townread? I agree with the read I just wanna see your reasoning
Also underlined is

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MalaKittens

stop being bad

[borkjerfkin]

Seriously I'm not going to put up with any more people filibustering the day with shit cases on Mala:

The mason team is Mala, N_M, and myself.

I can't fucking believe I had to type this out after everything today. Scum almost certainly already know (they certainly know neither Mala nor N_M is on the scumteam, so...)

Scum is in:

Wisdom
Riddleton/Constantine
Newbie/acryon
wgeurts/Mathdino/BMWS

If I had to put them into buckets of likelihood from greatest to least.

[borkjerfkin]

it shit.

It's shit.

[borkjerfkin]

Scum almost certainly already know (they certainly know neither Mala nor N_M is on the scumteam, so...)

I am giving town info I'm convinced scum already have. I don't care for your kneejerk 'emitting info is 100% bad' because there are at least three players (you, Wisdom, wgeurts) that are on the utter wrong track or scum hiding in that mess and you're wasting everyone's time.

[borkjerfkin]

You do realise, bork, that they're going to be the next 3 NKs, and the game's going to be mountainous from herein, which favours scum?

I am convinced that was going to happen anyway. Certainly if it's Wisdom and his 'the whole mason team is my scumlist' schtick that I don't buy at all.

But I'm also forcing day play down a specific road.

[borkjerfkin]

Just say my case is shit, tell me to unvote and we can move on. It frustrates me that you've outed the mason team.

Well obviously I did it for a reason and that reason is people weren't getting the day play right.

You force Mala into a claim and it's not hard to infer the rest of the team, lol. We got lucky with the TTH kill.

[borkjerfkin]

I think TTH had convinced herself Wisdom was a mason.

[borkjerfkin]

677

he just kinda runs with it. I'd have tried a subtle 'you are on the wrong track' nudge if I were a VT, especially if I townread TTH.

[borkjerfkin]

I think I get it. Wow, lol.

unvote

But anyway, this post.

This is newbie I think earnestly thinking Wisdom is in fact a mason. This puts them pretty solidly not on a team together. Either newbie's scum who doesn't know what wisdom is, or newbie's town that doesn't know what wisdom is.

[borkjerfkin]

^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom

Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.

I guess I'm only confused by what made you decide you were wrong about Wisdom being a mason on D1? Can you show me?

[borkjerfkin]

I think you're actually misinterpreting that post (See 873 that explains what's actually happening there) but honestly that's what I thought too before I reread it a few times.

p-edit: @newbie

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't actually think wisdom was a mason, but I did want to protect him from being mislynched. I think this confirms my suspicion on newbie and acyron.

Why is wisdom town? I really don't see where you're coming from here.

[borkjerfkin]

Unless people still think me and riddleton hardbussed.

It happens all the time, and even moreso in 3+ scumteam games. Please don't count it out just because it doesn't sound like something people would do. I have empirical evidence that says otherwise.

[borkjerfkin]

Can you guys give me second opinions about bmws interactions woth mala in twilight d1?

[borkjerfkin]

Like I just don't see that blood in the water reaction from a buddy of quickhammered scum

[borkjerfkin]

was not expecting that kill at all, but so much the better i guess.

[borkjerfkin]

cheertory said he was gonna read and pressure acryon and riddleton, but that was about it. It was mostly me talking to myself.

Gimme a few; in a meeting.

[borkjerfkin]

Constantine/BMWS is far more likely than Riddleton/BMWS

the fuck?

[borkjerfkin]

There aren't 4 scum? lol.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes but he was commenting on a particular pairing, and...

you know what it doesn't even matter.

[borkjerfkin]

These are my tiers from most to least likely for scum #3

Dude it's probably Riddleton

Riddleton

If that doesn't pan out look here

Constantine

Swore this dude was town for how he interacted with Wisdom today but

acryon

If we get here something is seriously wrong

wgeurts, Mathdino, BMWS

No

Newbie

[borkjerfkin]

Part of my thing was that Riddleton has pretty much no interaction with Wisdom ever and avoids the wagon for (?)

[borkjerfkin]

I want to make sure we're covering all of our bases, but I'm def. leaning riddleton

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not really interested in a case

[borkjerfkin]

In fact don't write cases in general

[borkjerfkin]

Can you guys give me second opinions about bmws interactions woth mala in twilight d1?

Like I just don't see that blood in the water reaction from a buddy of quickhammered scum

acryon, your thoughts on this?

[borkjerfkin]

Just ignore everything Riddleton and Constantine say and we're good. Alright, lemme write you up a case on Riddleton.

I mean listen to yourself here:

"I'm going to go and look for evidence to fit a conclusion I have already arrived at"

This is confirmation bias, and it's dangerous.

p-edit: or go do it anyway

[borkjerfkin]

Also we have a whole slew of early game Wisdom interactions that we should look at too.

[borkjerfkin]

Also I'm sorry if people are still butthurt that I outed the team but I'm not certain we'd have gotten the Wisdom lynch without it.

[borkjerfkin]

a brief thing that occurs to me is why not_mafia slot is dead considering it did literally nothing but I don't know where to go with that

[borkjerfkin]

I suppose

[borkjerfkin]

Anyway I want to reread all the slots from a fresh perspective to make sure I'm not utterly getting snowed by like you or something

I do want to hear from Constantine / Riddleton - at least one of them is town.

[borkjerfkin]

Nothing is really confirming me as town right now and I don't think I should be alive at LyLo.

Why do you not want to be at lylo?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm going to lay back a bit and see what transpires. My observation is probably more pro-town than my interaction would be right now, since my alignment isn't in question.

[borkjerfkin]

Sorry for the wall in advance.

Splitting this up into a few sections to keep it organized/focused on things I think are notable.

Early Game/Wgeurts Questioning

-39 was basically just a re-wording of my initial questioning of Victor’s question. I didn’t really think much of it at the time, but now it seems like may have been trying to gain some town-cred by calling out Victor even though I already did that. It looks like it worked because in 46 Mathdino seems to give him some of that cred.
-64 we see Wisdom seconding a question from wgeurts about why I thought the vote on him may be justified. I thought it was painfully obvious to everyone but wgeurts why people might be suspecting him given his erratic play. This made sense coming from someone who is new, but looking at it from Wisdom now seems fabricated. I think he should have known better.
-In 103, he questions wgeurts on unvoting him. This is one of those things that I think isn’t inherently scummy, but if you are looking at it being done by potential scum, it looks really scummy.
-108 is another example of this I think. He questions TTH this time about not engaging him directly. He is very proactive in his defense.
-110 and 114 are more of the same. Now that I’m reading through it again, all of these types of posts are really rubbing me the wrong way. I’m still don’t know that they point to him being scum, but they do help prop up a scum-case on him I think.
-In 188, he calls for wgeurts to stop the mason-talk, which is pro-town, but he does so after Mathdino already calls it out, so it’s hard to give him real town-points for it.
-299 he begins to go after SW for defending him. I’m all for looking into those appearing to WK you as scum, but the way he is going about it does seem a little too aggressive to be genuine.

Push on SW

-I actually agreed with the push on SW, as I joined in as well. If Wisdom is scum, there is still a chance, I think, that this was a bus. It did feel quite genuine, but I don’t want to rule it out just because it felt good.
-346 pings as he says he will self-vote over a NL. This is not town-motivated. Lynching a random person is better than a NL, but if you are town, then lynching what is a confirmed town to you is not better than a NL.

Miscellaneous

-Looking at this vote-count, I think there is a

very

good chance that there was some bussing going on:
Wisdom (4) - TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, SilverWolf, Newbie
wgeurts (4) - VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom, Mathdino
VictorDeAngelo (1) - acryon
acryon (1) – Malakittens
I’m not going to speculate pre-flip, but I wanted to make a note for future reference if Wisdom does end up being the lynch and flips scum.
-In the VC in 400, I don’t know how likely it is that 2+ scum would be on the wgeurts wagon at that point in time. I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible, but my initial thought on it is that this gives Wisdom some town-points.

Mala/Mid-game

-In 354, I made a far-fetched (and I admitted it as such) post about a potential Mala coaching wgeurts situation. I think most people recognized this as some wild speculation (as it was), but Wisdom jumped on it in 355.
-Then in 404, he sort of begins to run with it by questioning Mala on her reads, although he hadn’t really engaged her much at all before now.
-In 590/593 he votes and pushes for more info from Mala. I actually liked this, because Mala had been pretty weak with her reasoning.
-In 610 Wisdom mentions masons maybe voting each other to muddy the waters, and this doesn’t really make any sense at all. Town don’t vote players who are confirmed town to them; they either vote scum or vote to pressure those they are unsure about. Very weird comment to make, especially from someone with a good amount of experience.
-614 he gets weirdly defensive toward TTH and says he is “starting to consider [him avoiding interaction with him] a scum tactic.” This just reads really awkwardly.
-666 he again is asking for people to explain town-reads on him. All of this focus on explanations for town-reading him seem to indicate a greater desire to clear himself to town than to actually find scum. It isn’t scummy to be concerned about what people think of you, but the degree to which he has focused on it is suspect.

Late-game

-696 and [/post]740[/post] do read like scum trying to protect their buddy. The soft-defense definitely pings a bit.
-752 and 755 do venture into hard-defending territory, but it is quickly backed off in 760 where he concedes that Victor did some weird things.
-I agreed with a lot of his pushing on Constantine, and still do.
-His post in 786 pings. He asks both myself and Mathdino, knowing that we shared similar views on SW in the past, so it seems like he could be trying to keep us strung along behind him.
-1084 is super weird. “The remaining scum is mala and most likely acryon”. What?? He had never even really mentioned me before that point and now I am most likely scum?
-1099 is just so weak. He says I am scum simply due to PoE, but could also be N_M or BMWS. This is just so confusing. His reasoning for thinking any of me/MMWS/N_M is nonexistent.

The fact that I have agreed with more than one of the wagons he was pushing makes me obviously reluctant to push him over someone I have completely disagreed with(Constantine), but it does appear that there is a very good chance he is scum. I think it is an absolute certainty that one of Wisdom/Riddleton/Constantine is scum, and very probably that 2 are scum.

VOTE: Wisdom

I'm a little worried about this post.

Dude was defending wisdom all game then as soon as I spilled it and Mathdino jumped on, it's case time

[borkjerfkin]

I forgot one possibly pertinent thing that I will paraphrase from the mason topic:

cheetory was worried that acryon was playing dumb about wgeurts being bad as town, so maybe they all have some history together?

I'm wondering if that explains the nightkill. I feel like all things considered, any scum who had no experience with any of mala, cheetory, or me would've killed me.

[borkjerfkin]

I think flip constantine / acryon in my 'lynch them in this order' list, imo. I think constantine's just constantineing.

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I defended Wisdom all game and changed my mind when you spilled it. So did Newbie.

Newbie definitely did not do that. Newbie was very organically back and forth on Wisdom.

You had seeds of suspicion on Wisdom the whole time.

acyron was being what I would call an 'apologist' for him - he acknowledged a lot of stuff was a little goofy but he thought that the demeanor read town and never really deviated from that until that case which was like 'DIS GAI'S OBVSCUM'

[borkjerfkin]

I'd have killed Mala, actually. Jussayin.

*shrug*

I was clearly the more active player at that point in the game, is my point.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not hammering. Someone else can and I won't be put off but I'm leaving lines of discussion open as long as possible.

[borkjerfkin]

but those in the middle I almost always defend, because someone needs to play devil's advocate.

That's fair. I am just a bit wary when you're doing that until it looks like Wisdom's house of cards is about to come crashing down, then you post about him and just about everything you talk about points to him being scum.

[borkjerfkin]

Regarding the suspicion on me, I would much rather not be left in the grey. So I am 100% for clearing me tomorrow

You know, considering you're the third person (Riddle, Math, you) to advocate a pre-lylo lynch of yourselves:

This is not how town wins games. Town wins games by getting other townies to

not

lynch them. Just scumhunt and be town if you're town and trust the other town to pick up on that.

I mean, geez. I have literally never once told town 'lynch me on day X because of paranoia' when I'm town. I've done it as scum.

[borkjerfkin]

That would mean Constantine would be wrong...

I think the ship has sailed on that already

[borkjerfkin]

I am not advocating a pre-lylo lynch of myself at all. I said we should

clear

me, not kill me!

I guess I usually see this in the context of 'use an investigative role on me' so I don't know what you mean then

p-edit: oh

[borkjerfkin]

There's no reason that can't happen today, considering all tomorrow is going to be if you're wrong is the same group sans mala or me

[borkjerfkin]

Like I know you guys are super excited about winning and shit. I am too.

but that is predicated on you being correct, so let's cover those bases

[borkjerfkin]

Most damning thing in Riddleton's ISO is definitely his lack of interaction with Wisdom. That actually looks super bad.

[borkjerfkin]

Right now I'm trying to rush a perfect town victory (kinda wanna get this game over with to put in my meta and start a new one). I understand if you're a bit put off by that, haha.

Nah it actually reads town

[borkjerfkin]

and I'm still gonna fight people tooth and nail on BMWS I think that slot is town

[borkjerfkin]

Not interested in the wisdom wagon.

This is literally the one time Riddleton even comes close to having a read on Wisdom

[borkjerfkin]

I'm definitely leaning town on bork, but I'm not willing to bet on it.

I'll kill you

[borkjerfkin]

oh you totes mistyped my name for bmws there didn't you

[borkjerfkin]

Anyway I might be out of things to say. Riddleton's a fine lynch and we might just win with it.

But if we don't: the point is please use flips to readjust your conception of the gamestate, and don't be afraid to assume all your previous reads are shit.

[borkjerfkin]

Dude

[borkjerfkin]

just gonna fucking drop this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59109

I don't know why this shit is all the rage lately but you can fuck right off with it

[borkjerfkin]

Unless you're actually scum then cool

But if you're not, jesus fuck dude

[borkjerfkin]

I am being kept alive because my reads are (were?) wrong.

Also this game has set a new precedent for people doing stupid shit

So thanks for that.

[borkjerfkin]

cases are for chumps

[borkjerfkin]

In fact, who are you writing your case on

[borkjerfkin]

If I have one problem with Mathdino is that he pushed town literally all game until my Wisdom thing.

[borkjerfkin]

Still can't shake my gut that 899+ is BMWS trying to figure out mala

[borkjerfkin]

it does not seem to be being done for towncred

[borkjerfkin]

but to me it was ultimately a null/lean scum-motivation.

You think that particular interaction with Mala leans scum? Why

[borkjerfkin]

Can you explain that in a way that isn't a total nonanswer?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm reading it as "I think hes scum therefore this action is probably scummy on its own merit" which is hilariously backward

[borkjerfkin]

Well you disagree with my assertion that it is town with the town motivation I have attributed to it and are being really vague in telling me how I'm wrong or how its null or how it actually leans scum or whatever argument you seem to be trying to make.


So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there? Why is it "more of a scum tell than a town tell"

[borkjerfkin]

but given your desire to reject my statement that it is a null and pick a side, I've picked scum.

what

[borkjerfkin]

So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there?

To expound on that, the only way I really see that being scummy from BMWS is if he were scum trying to fake that exact interaction so that I'd townread him for it.

Which is something he would have no idea I'd do at that point.

The alternative is that he was actually really worried about Mala after that hammer, which did not involve hedging on Vic's alignment. That makes this more about Mala than Vic, and the only reason that would be the case was him trying to figure Mala out.

[borkjerfkin]

You are trying to get me to explain to you how your gut-read is wrong? How can I explain how a premise based on gut is wrong other than to explain that a gut-feeling is not a valid argument?

The only place my gut comes into it is how strong I am weighing that point (very strongly).

[borkjerfkin]

I thought it was ultimately a null. You thought it was town. I said I thought there was a bigger chance it was scum than town. You asked why I thought it was scum. I explained that I didn't really think it was scum, but that I thought there was a greater chance of it being scum than town. Why? Because my gut tells me there was a greater chance that it was him trying to look town and using twilight as an opportunity to do so than him actually questioning Mala as town.

Long-story-short: Null, but given Scum and Town as only options, Scum.

Dude

I don't give a shit why something is town as long as you can adequately explain why that is.
I don't give a shit why something is null as long as you can adequately explain why that is.
I don't give a shit why something is scummy as long as you can adequately explain why that is.

[borkjerfkin]

My issue is that you had that slot leaning town yesterday, and once things flip in a way that goes against your reads, you immediately readjust them without a thought process that I can really see into, with a good heap of what seems to me like confirmation bias while you do it.

[borkjerfkin]

bork, did Mala have any more commentary on BMWS's response to her hammer? I think her input would be good here to finish up D1 analysis of him.

No, I was really the only one who ever talked about that

[borkjerfkin]

Talk to me about your mathdino & newbie reads

[borkjerfkin]

Well my reads obviously had to change dramatically. When my primary (and only) scum-read was on someone who flips town, there is bound to be some drastic changes somewhere. I had Bmws leaning town, I had Newbie as probably town, I had you as conftown, I had Mathdino as town. One of those had to switch to a scum-read.

That's fine but you didn't say PoE, you decided he was scum for a number of reasons independently of everyone else.

[borkjerfkin]

Realizing there are only 4 people in the game that could be scum and you town-read all of them, so going back over each and determining one of them looks to be scummy based on their actions and the fact that one of them has to be scum isn't strictly PoE. You're totally misrepresenting here and I'm not sure what case on anyone I could present without you making the same argument. It's a stupid argument because it applies to every case I could make simply because I'm in a bad position reads-wise. Someone was going from a town-read to a scum-read because one of those "townies" was scum. It's just the nature of where my reads were at and where they (clearly) failed. That's just the facts of this game, so no progression is going to seem natural because I didn't think any of them were likely to be scum before, but I have to now.

Ok.

Let's talk Mathdino and Newbie.

[borkjerfkin]

Reasons for pushing / not pushing Vic Wisdom would be a good start.

I am doing that too for all four of you.

[borkjerfkin]

Mathdino in particular has been getting almost no pressure from anyone due to how townleader-y he's been the whole game. You just wrote him off as well - just wondering where your head is there.

He did a similar thing to Newbie (even going so far as to suggest voting Newbie is a scumclaim). That seems like a really silly thing to say.

[borkjerfkin]

Considering the only thing Newbie is being townread for is thinking Wisdom is a mason - this isn't any less 'fakeable' if you get into the mindset that someone may have been trying to earn towncred there.

I'm just not sure that was the mindset Newbie was in at the time, and the same can be said for why I'm townreading BMWS for what he said to Mala when he did.

[borkjerfkin]

In that regard, you and Mathdino become more attractive lynches than BMWS/Newbie.

That being said, someone killed not_mafia (a slot that had pretty much done nothing) and Mala (a slot that had posted nothing substantive since D1) over me (someone who has been continually engaged since my replace in).

That is likely not an accident and could actually point to one of BMWS/Newbie scum (the two slots I have defended the hardest).

[borkjerfkin]

Forgot to ask: have you played with Cheetory before?

[borkjerfkin]

hmm.

[borkjerfkin]

This is a really weird line of questioning.

[borkjerfkin]

Newbie/acryon/bmws: want reasons for your mathdino townreads since you all seem to have one.

[borkjerfkin]

Nothing about this game is clicking right now.

[borkjerfkin]

And despite that effort has managed to be consistently wrong.

[borkjerfkin]

Ask wisdom how well the "if I were scum I'd do X" argument went

[borkjerfkin]

If you thought you'd get flak for it? Of course you would.

Nothing else to say right now. Will reread later.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't have the capacity for this tonight

Mod: can we have the locked thread time back?

I have a feeling I'm gonna need it all.

Also can we not keep BMWS at L-1? Thanks

[borkjerfkin]

guess what I'm trying to say is that if I were scum, I'd have this game in the bag, and I'm not the type to draw things out unnecessarily.

lol, if you're scum you apparently

do

have the game in the bag.

It's kind of like how you know someone is town in LyLo by the fact that they don't hammer. A bit premature, I know, but still. Doing what I'm doing now would be against my wincon.

This is dishonest and it should be obvious why. Scum quickhammering in LyLo have exactly zero accountability for doing so as it ends the game. That is not even remotely applicable to this situation.

[borkjerfkin]

Also just no one else is making any sense as scum right now

[borkjerfkin]

Newbie v Wisdom D1 just really looks TvS to me.

[borkjerfkin]

BMWS do you play mafia elsewhere?

[borkjerfkin]

because I asked him to

[borkjerfkin]

looking through more D1 stuff:

Mathdino's push on Wgeurts for 'mason fishing' (as if that were easily discernable between looking for scumbuddy interactions, especially considering it was pretty obvious Wgeurts generally had no idea what the fuck he was doing regardless of alignment) on D1 was fucking awful

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Mathdino

There are just things that don't sit well to me in his ISO and interactions today with people have been weird. I don't care how much he posts or how wordy those posts are.
I have compelling reasons to think others are town. acryon's trajectory on BMWS is a bit weird with his interaction with me - although his confusion as to why I'm just not getting it points to it making sense to him - but his ISO just doesn't read scum. I'm not sure how to articulate it. I do think one of the people pushing Constantine is probably scum because he was just such an easy target.

I think a common theme for him is that his read on people is somewhat overly commensurate with how much other people's cases make logical sense, which is something I kinda associate with scum who have no true gut reads because they're scum. Stuff like 830. There's a weird seam there between 'Riddleton's case on Vic sucks so I still think Vic is town' and 'Riddleton is scum for his [dubious] freudian scumslip' that just doesn't seem organic to me.

Only thing I'm getting from people townreading Mathdino is 'lol effort'. I hate to burst your bubble, but effort posting isn't alignment indicative. You can write cases to make any point you want, as evidenced by the fact that all of the people he's pursued as such have flipped the wrong way.

No, that's not a scumtell. But it's also not a towntell - there is obvious potential for scum motivation to do what he's done this game: aggressively and exhaustively pursue town. It gets them lynched and gets him townread. I think he knows when to capitulate (note his absolute deference to me as soon as I became confirmed, and I don't just mean not suspecting me, I mean not ruffling my feathers at all) and when to fight for things.

I think there are hints of TTH being on to him too (604).

I don't get the "Newbie if you're scumreading BMWS for hopping on to X wagons you should also be scumreading me for it" angle because it's fucking weird to have come from town.
1) Town should realize that scum buddy/sheep/parrot/whatever town all the time
2) BMWS is tonally nothing like Mathdino this game (hell just look at the postcount) and you're not comparing apples to apples at all. Hell you bolded what the wagons were while glossing over the reasoning. You really want to argue that BMWS made the exact same arguments that you did for everything? No? Then your point is bad.
3) The whole 'write a better case on BMWS' (rather then 'you scum Newbie?') request after all that gives him an easy out to just hop on BMWS later if whatever Newbie writes passes the smell test for

the other townies

(or at least he can sell it to them later so they buy it). This point is important - it's less about whether or not Newbie is scum for making the argument and more about making sure that his sheeping that BMWS isn't going to turn town against him tomorrow, because that is ultimately the difference between a town win and scum win tomorrow if he's scum. His whole thing about 'not lynching BMWS right then plays against scum-Mathdino's wincon' is fucking bollocks.

[borkjerfkin]

sheeping that BMWS case

ebwop

[borkjerfkin]

There are few things worse than being compelled to make such a case, but seriously no one else is fitting for me like he is. But I am glad it's out there and can be relied upon as something that is genuinely believed by a town player.

@re your question: I think that's a little WIFOMy, especially considering site meta here is so distance-y/bussy. I've certainly sheeped my buddies as scum before.

[borkjerfkin]

Not sure whether I actually hope Mathdino is scum or not. I'm leaning towards the latter, but I'm still not sure.

Can you explain what this means?

[borkjerfkin]

I guess that's fair.

[borkjerfkin]

I was really hoping to get a Constantine lynch because he is my #1 by a good bit over Riddleton. Can we really not get a Constantine lynch going? Because I would much rather hear what Riddleton has to say tomorrow after we have a couple flips out of the way, and I'm skeptical of the traction existing at this point for it to get there.

This is a person who has a very strong opinion about the lynch between two people who both flipped town. ++townpoints here.

[borkjerfkin]

To reiterate, this is a dissent at Wisdom's hopping on Riddleton and shifting the momentum away from his preferred lynch.

[borkjerfkin]

Dammiiiiit. Riddleton's last post is convincing enough. I'm going to eat you for that post if you end up being scum, Riddleton.

UNVOTE: Riddleton
VOTE: Constantine

If Wisdom and wgeurts switch to Constantine we're at L-1. At which point it's going to be up to Victor, TTH, and Malakittens.

Meanwhile this, when it happened, is a

fucking Victor counterwagon.

Look at the VC before it.

[borkjerfkin]

Especially since 870 is a bunch of dumb WIFOM and shouldn't be giving anyone the 'oh shit I was wrong' vibe like it allegedly did Mathdino

[borkjerfkin]

Like I told Wisdom: I'm not interested in a rebuttal. Your goal is to convince me you're town no matter what you actually are.

Do something else.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not moved by any of this.

Like I said: do something else.

[borkjerfkin]

What threw me for a loop was that wgeurts entered the game with a Slayer Gambit and generally showed himself capable of pretending he had no idea what the fuck he was doing (and has shown himself to be capable of that in other games) so I figured he was mason-fishing using the mask of a newbtown.

lol no you didn't

you arbitrarily decided he was mason fishing because "interactive tells are different in a mason game" which is a silly argument in and of itself - just because masons will act a certain way doesn't mean that scum will necessarily act differently than normal to compensate, nor should you be holding anyone to that arbitrary standard you just created. But I think you know that.

Even if you hadn't said that, I can't get from "wgeurts is capable of playing dumb as scum" to "wgeurts is necessarily mason fishing right now and could not possibly be pre-flip associative scumhunting and is therefore scum", because legitimately dumb town would obviously be genuinely trying to hunt via associative tells, considering that's exactly what he said he was doing. The slayer's gambit or whatever the fuck doesn't even apply here; he's just scumhunting, which is the obvious way to interpret Wgeurts' play that you somehow missed.

Not buying it.

[borkjerfkin]

I found that the most likely scenario

And that was silly of you.

The fact that he was outright asking people straight up if they were masons was a bit too much for me.

Check your timestamps, because you seem to have events a bit out of order...(your vote on wgeurts came before he even started talking about that, and you brought it up, not him.)

[borkjerfkin]

you have to be careful that you're not confusing scum with masons. I hold wgeurts to the standard of not drawing pre-flip associations in a mason game, just in case.

And if 'be careful of false positives' were the angle you took I'd have been fine with it.

It wasn't; you called him scum that was mason fishing because he wanted to know who the masons were.

[borkjerfkin]

237, her Wisdom case. Now, let's be clear, Wisdom was not scummy D1. It was D2 where he stood out, but not early D1. See, Newbie was the first one to write up a case on Wisdom, stretching his actions a bit to look scummy, followed by going back to wgeurts. Scum tends to be hyperaware of their partners' shady behaviour because they know each other to be scum. wgeurts going after Wisdom, that makes sense from his perspective since he knew himself to be town and he was half OMGUSing. But Newbie- there wasn't really much to be suspicious of Wisdom for at that stage. Wisdom did not respond to said case.

I hate this particular paragraph more than others

[borkjerfkin]

wgeurts has rolefished under the guise of a newbtown persona before

and my point was that this isn't relevant unless you're willing to go on record saying that you can totes discern between someone looking for masons to out themselves and someone looking for scumbuddy interactions which is what he said he was doing