Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Wickedestjr]

Ready

[Wickedestjr]

copper, have you played with mastin before?

beast might be scum...

[Wickedestjr]

[Wickedestjr]

Almost forgot.

Mod:

Limited access 8th-11th.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: beastcharizard

[Wickedestjr]

Odds are you are both town.

Why did you say this?

[Wickedestjr]

@beast - The lightheartedness of your first post, while perfectly appropriate, felt out of place for some reason.

Tean voted for a penguin,
due to being scum.

Do you actually think Tean is scum?

I don't get the purpose of the second part of copper's post. It looks like they are try harding.

Are you aware that I asked copper for his reasons? (because I personally thought his post was fine )

[Wickedestjr]

I figured that was a joke post and didn't think anything of it. Everything before the game start post is not game relevant so I don't see why you are trying to use it as such. That is like saying someone is scum because they posted in the sign-up thread at a specific time of the day in a specific spot on the player list. The game hasn't even started and you are deciding who is scum in what seems to be a serious way.

I get impatient when trying to scum hunt early on. When a game first starts, my initial strategy is always either A. say something weird to provoke serious discussion or B. vote based on my initial gut feelings. I chose B this time. I never said nor implied that I had strong evidence for you being scum - I was just voting based on my initial gut feeling. YOU asked ME for my reasoning, so I gave you my page 2 logic, never having advertised better.

You acknowledge that it's too early for me to strongly suspect somebody yet you vote me for not having strong enough reasons. Why can't I start trying now? Several other players have started developing reads but I am the only one you have issue with, and I just happen to be the one voting you.

I'm liking my vote more now.

[Wickedestjr]

Self correction: you had issue with copper also. But he wasn't the only other person to try developing reads.

[Wickedestjr]

i see where youre coming from but run me through why its scummy? being a hypocrite doesnt make someone scum. unfortunately in my experience townies do it too (often not on purpose)

Ehh... I don't think this is really a hypocrisy vote, but I can see why you interpret it as such. There are two reasons why I said "I'm liking my vote more now";
1. His opposition to "trying hard" seems like an anti-scumhunting attitude which I dislike. I think "trying hard" is how games get out of RVS and an essential part of the early game.
2. His specific issue with my vote for him is weird because I'm one of several people "trying hard". There are several others, yet I'm the one that beast is voting right now and I can't help but wonder if his vote is self-defense rather than the reasoning he gave. His vote for me doesn't seem like a genuine town reaction.

[Wickedestjr]

davesaz, what do you think of mastin's vote for you?

[Wickedestjr]

This:

Yo.

Didn't bother to look at how many scum there are in the game (presumably, three), but copper and BlueBloodedToffee are either both town or both scum. (Lean the former.)

Aninenim is town.

One of Wicked/dave is scum, but not both. I lean dave.

Oh.
And I am totally /ready.

Lol.

Who said I was joking?

[Wickedestjr]

Did you not notice that?

[Wickedestjr]

I like the points against eyestott. Not a fan of the penguin case, though.

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

Just treat it like a normal game until we have more information to work with. We know the setup is somewhat balanced, but there is no way of knowing what the specific setup is unless people claim, and we want to keep our power roles a mystery for as long as possible. Once roles are revealed, then there might be benefit to speculation, but I don't think 'now' is the time.

I'm liking my vote more now.

This terminology sounds familiar, but can't put my finger on who says it a lot.
It gives off a faint odor of scum.

How else am I supposed to say that the magnitude of my suspicion for someone has increased? This seems irrelevant.

[Wickedestjr]

Heres why I chose this game:
Most people prefer to scumhunt in the conventional way. Some players use meta a lot to scumhunt. Others, including myself, use role-related and setup-related points mainly for scumhunting.
This setup has so much variance, which is what drew me to the game. I am viewing this setup as closer to a logic puzzle than other mafia setups, as a large amount of players hold small pieces of information about the setup.
I am a late game player. Ill still scum hunt in the conventional way, but when i make cases, please place more weight on my role-related arguments than my conventional arguments.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus.

She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule)

.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

[Wickedestjr]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

This is a scummy response. Read carefully guys. This is a whole bunch of words that says "I'm not scummy, you are" with zero defense or explanation. dodgy and vettrock had a valid point against you. You simply deflected with a subtle accusation that feels disingenuous.

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

If you really thought this was a reaction test, why would you point that out? I think a reaction test is ruined if the test subjects know it's a reaction test.

Wicked, 68 – there's truth in your logic. But, according to my experience, making discussions and cases out of very little things is a null-tell.

That's exactly my point. beast shouldn't be criticizing the 'discussions and cases out of little things', because it's pretty null. I'm not asking to be town read for my early "hard trying". But I do think it's suspicious and anti-town of beast to discourage my and copper's 'premature' efforts.

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Question feels weak considering dodge voted eyestott. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but what are you hoping to gain through this inquiry?


By the way, Faustbyte = Tean Samargo.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, just in case people didn't realize, Tean Samargo is a hydra.

Off topic;

@mastin: If you're using the observation that I've flipped town in every game to predict I'm scum here, remember that dice have no memory. BTW is there a record for longest streak rolling town on this site?

I don't think there is an official record anywhere. However, I once went thirteen games in a row without drawing a scum role pm. Some other players that come to mind;
-Vi: I remember him saying once that he gets scum even less than I do.
-Seacore: active a few years ago, has about as much experience as I do and I don't think he ever drew a scum role pm. (Not sure if he plays any more).
So, I don't know, but it's an interesting question.

(Stay tuned. More thoughts, reads, and potential vote change coming up later)

[Wickedestjr]

Players I am already confidently town reading: killapenwin and dodgy

Killapenwin;

-From reading his posts, I get the impression that he doesn't worry about what others will think about his posts. E.g. when he criticized the random voting, he was the first and only person to do that. I think it would be tough for penwinscum to go against and criticize the norm. So it felt like he was genuinely bothered - and he wouldn't be if he were mafia.
-He is overly defensive and it feels like genuine frustration towards the people that have found his posts suspicious, as if he knows his attackers are wrong.
-The case against him seems to be: overly self-defensive and contradictory behavior, but "overly defensive" doesn't seem like a scum tell for him and "contradictory behavior" is what I would expect from a player with his level of experience. He had the "Goon" title at game start and clearly isn't familiar with site meta given his RVS-criticism. The contradictions are bad and worth questioning, but I've seen many an inexperienced townie contradict so it doesn't bother me this time either. I think the town tells I pointed out are much stronger than the case against him.

The pen win is town.
I can make a haiku too.
Scum is voting him.

dodgy;

-Feels like he is paying very close attention to what is happening in thread.
-Really feels like he is contributing because he is interested in scum hunting rather than due to an obligation to impress. I find myself agreeing with a lot of his thoughts.
-eyestott was friendly and helping dodgy. I like how dodgy turned around and called him out on buddying. I don't think dodgy would have done that if he were scum.


Players that I have issue with: beast, eyestott, davesaz

beast;

-See post 68. I think I have explained it several times so I'm not going to again unless there's still confusion.
-It bothers me that he completely disappeared after I called him out.

eyestott;

-Potential buddying of dodgy and mastin.
-His conventional vs. role-related scum hunting reflection post feels like he is excusing himself to not scum hunt much/well now. I don't see a town motive for the post.
-I don't like the penwin mini wagon and he is a part of it.

davesaz;

-One of his first, few, and only contributions was that my use of the phrase "I'm liking my vote more now" is scummy.
-Twice he has demonstrated that he is not paying careful attention. First, when mastin said he was serious about his vote, dave didn't know what he was talking about. Second, dave said to dodgy "I'd have voted you for your naked vote if you didn't justify it after", but dodgy justified the vote in post 92

before

voting eye in post 108.
-Don't like his post 131 (I explained why in my post 151).
-Don't like how he suggested the possibility that mastin was reaction testing.
-Aside from his criticism of my "I'm liking my vote more now" and his post 131, he hasn't provided any thoughts nor has he explicitly stated any scum or town reads. It just feels like he's coasting.

There's still a good chance that beast is scum, but I also like this better:

Unvote. Vote: davesaz

[Wickedestjr]

copper: Null. Nothing scummy yet. Nothing particularly town telling for me yet either, though.

mastin2: play seems fine so far and seems to resemble her town meta. However, I'm hesitant to town read her right now because I've heard she has a strong scum game and I haven't seen anything that I don't she's capable of as scum. Plus, I read her wrong last time we played together, so I'm treading carefully.

Tean Samargo: it's good that they created a case to justify their vote, but I dislike the target. I also dislike how, in their case, they refer to killapenwin as "the penguins", "the pengling", and "pengdong". At the time of their case it was already clear that killapenwin both had a defensive play style and was frustrated by the suspicions toward him. So it really feels like these demeaning names are meant to incite an emotional reaction from penwin, something that could attract more suspicion towards him. Also haven't seen anything town-telling from them either.


Need more data on: BBT, Heartless, vettrock, Aneninen

[Wickedestjr]

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in,

basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum”

. I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done

nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning

. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

Ehh… while I agree with your read, I also think you should be careful here if you're town.

That's nothing.

Try 30. (Or was it 40? It was either 30 or 40.)

2014's been the year of the town PM for me. Annoyingly, it's continued into this year, too. A semi-open is a DREAM for scuMastin; I thrive in that environment. (Heck, one of my favorite scum games ever was a semi-open.) Ah, well. I'll make up for it by making 2015 the year of "lynching scum and getting immediately nightkilled for it".

Wow I thought 13 was bad. But 30-40 is near-astronomically bad. I guess random.org just likes putting “Wickedestjr” and “mastin2” at the bottom of random lists.

If you assume the chance of getting scum in any game is 25%, then the chance of a 13 game town streak is;
(0.75)^13 = 2.4%
And the chance of a 35 game town streak is;
(0.75)^35 = 0.004%

It doesn’t seem fair.

[Wickedestjr]

Beast also likely town for that vote flailing he did (terrible logic though).

Can you elaborate on this? In combination with his immediate/subsequent disappearance, I'm really not seeing it as townish.

[Wickedestjr]

can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

Looks like he has seven or eight completed games and five or six ongoing games. Over 1000 game posts, so he's pretty experienced. If you want to check for yourself (or check for another player), click on the player's username and then click on "view their topics". That'll give you all the topics on Mafiascum that they have posted in, ever.

[Wickedestjr]

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Before you go insulting others, you should learn the basic unspoken rules w.r.t. claiming. How can you call someone an idiot in the same sentence that

you

give a horribly-timed claim? I don't think you were even at L-2...

[Wickedestjr]

Apologies for the delay, everyone. I spent most of yesterday (the 7th) in the hospital after a minor car accident and did not feel like dealing with this when I finally got home at 2am.

Expect daily votecounts at around this time from now on.

No worries, mod. Sorry to hear about your accident, I hope everything is okay!

Posts coming soon.

[Wickedestjr]

Before you go insulting others, you should learn the basic unspoken rules w.r.t. claiming. How can you call someone an idiot in the same sentence that

you

give a horribly-timed claim? I don't think you were even at L-2...

I don't get to let the angry out often enough, so once in a while I like to blow off steam.

Even so, I don’t see why the comment required a claim.

If you really thought this was a reaction test, why would you point that out? I think a reaction test is ruined if the test subjects know it's a reaction test.

Take that logic a little further. The target knows it's a reaction test. That means that their reactions can be ______________________ (fill in the blank)

I can’t speak for mastin, but I know that when

I

reaction test, I am hoping to get reactions from as many people as I can - not just the person that my reaction test targets/regards. Even if mastin was focusing on just you, I think her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. TL;DR - I don’t think you were the only test subject.

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

TBH I never have reads on every player to begin with. A lot of the unmentioned have posted nothing beyond RVS.

Maybe I’m missing something, but what prompted you to post ‘reads’ on those five players specifically if you only actually have reads on two of them? Filler?

I've said this before. It may be in a completed game, but I'm not sure. This site has a hard time dealing with an honest player. You expect people to toss blind accusations, ignore their feelings and act like they don't care about being voted, attack someone for a mistaken word or two. That's not how I play.

You're welcome to lynch me if you think it's the right thing. I know it would be a mistake for town.

This really feels like scum posting. You referring to yourself as “an honest player” almost feels like you’re trying to portray yourself as a victim. But it feels disingenuous, because there’s no way that we can know if you really are ‘honest’. How can you say that the site has a hard time dealing with an honest player when it can’t differentiate the honest from the dishonest? Isn’t that the whole point of the game? And the “I know it would be a mistake for town.” is just unnecessary.

[Wickedestjr]

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

1: So it wouldnt be a surprise when I start switching from conventionally scumhunting during the early game to role-based scumhunting in the late game.
2: I couldnt think of another rule that could apply.

1: That’s an odd thing for you to be concerned about now.
2: If you made that assumption “because you couldn’t think of another motive”, then why did you also say;

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.

I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

? Seems contradictory. Why make an assumption about mastin if you weren't certain to begin with?

- Being nice is hardly alignment indicative. I mean, sure, scum do it. But town do it to, especially when theyre legitimately just trying to be nice. My niceness in mafia stems from an aversion to conflict.
- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

- I can respect that. But I am somewhat hesitant to take your word for it, because I’ve never played with you before. If you could provide an example of you exhibiting similar behavior as town, then I’d probably drop this point.
- It’s a combination of the two, but mostly because I think Penwin is town. Also, I think he’s an easier target given his lack of experience.

Point 2 and Point 3 really look like theyre coming from a town mindset.
I can see why he though my vote was bad, as it put him in the lead, and had little reasoning even though I dont think he realised

it was a predominantly RVS vote

.
I also liked his point where he says that he wants to use it wisely and that just OMGUSing is not what he wanted to do.

This feels like a slight backpedal (possibly to help justify your vote switch). Rereading your post 67, nothing about it feels jokey, you pointed out a contradiction and voted.

[Wickedestjr]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

Normally I would agree with you here and I’ll admit his reaction made me momentarily reconsider. But I get the impression that davesaz is experienced and savvy enough to realize that his claim and self vote thought are bad things to say as mafia. And I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an experienced townie claim prematurely OR consider self voting, let alone both. Maybe I’ve never seen it happen. He should know that both actions are big “NO NOs” and I’m not buying the genuine town frustration theory. We had been voting him for what, a few hours?

i think wicked is likely town.

At this point, even if he's scum he's still town because dammit, he's just so damn town in his recent posting. (Mind you, I've always read him as scum when he's town so me having a townread is making me paranoid that this time he's actually scum. But screw paranoia, I'm sticking to that townread.)

Interesting. I'm curious, do you see differences in the way I am playing (that make you town read me

this

time)? Or has your perception of my meta simply changed? I’ll admit I’m glad that you town read me but it also makes me a little bit paranoid, because you usually don’t.

I don't get the secrecy "close-to-chest" thing at this point of the game.

At this point all reads are pretty speculative. Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action? About the only reason I can say for holding things back at this point in the game.

This is a weird thing for you to say given your play up to now.

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

Now this is a weird thing for

you

to say! Especially considering you cast the vote for davesaz immediately preceding eyestott’s vote (so you weren’t much faster to hop aboard). It also seems convenient how you start to cast doubt on the wagon, ‘coincidentally’, just after it starts to lose momentum.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, all caught up. Going to sleep now, I'll try to post again in the morning (I'm sure there will be another 15-20 posts by then), but if I can't, then I might not get the chance to post tomorrow at all.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked
How confident are you about Dave being scum? It's true the early claims happened in Rome.

72% sure

I agree that self-voting and early claiming are anti-town, but what would be the motivation for doing it as scum?

1:

If town, I see him claiming VT as helping scum as it eliminates one person from the power role "pool".

2:

If scum, what does he gain? As for self-voting, when you are scum, to self-vote/hammer and shut down the conversation is about the only reason to do so. Threatening to self-vote to me makes you sound like a cry baby rather than making you scummy. How does scum benefit from the whiney, "I'm going to self-vote" line. One could make the argument that if we are going to lynch someone, it better to lynch someone who isn't helping town, than someone who is, but that is the only justification for a vote I can see from those two things at this point.

1: That’s a reason why he wouldn’t claim prematurely as town.
2: Copper explained it in 256 pretty well.

Understandable. Mastin did say the reason I stated was her reason. I will say that I'm not holding back any reads at this point, I'm just still forming them, and I like to base them off of more information. I'm much more uncertain than I am secretive at this point.

Okay.

I can’t speak for mastin, but I know that when

I

reaction test, I am hoping to get reactions from as many people as I can - not just the person that my reaction test targets/regards. Even if mastin was focusing on just you, I think her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. TL;DR - I don’t think you were the only test subject.

Well, shouldn't we let Mastin talk about his own reaction test?
Because, I don't see where talking about reaction tests really goes. Unless we want to be paranoid and think that every single post is a reaction test. Who likes washing the dishes? ^_^

Like I said, even if mastin was only focusing on dave, her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. Also, I’m not the one assuming mastin’s motive. I’m simply presenting another possibility to dave.

Also, who's scum besides Davesaz according to your reads?

I am suspicious of dave, eye, beast, and Tean.

[Wickedestjr]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

Misrep.

I

presented the 256 theory.

[Wickedestjr]

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Phone post

You've misinterpreted my question. I wasn't questioning you for the shortness of the reads list (OBVIOUSLY there are players who have provided even less than you have). I am fine with that. I was questioning your inclusion of the null reads in your reads post. Why did you specifically include mastin and Anen in your reads list (as opposed to... say... eye and beast) when you literally had nothing interesting to say about them? E.g. Did I miss a post where someone asked you for your reads on those players? If you weren't going to post a reads list for all the players then why did you specifically include just those few null reads (because I assume you also null read all the players not mentioned). I was wondering if the unhelpful null reads we're added simply for filler. Does that make sense?

[Wickedestjr]

I’m back. Catching up now. Page 12 responses/thoughts/questions.

@eyestott - Buddying point has been dropped. Thank you.

Phone post

You've misinterpreted my question. I wasn't questioning you for the shortness of the reads list (OBVIOUSLY there are players who have provided even less than you have). I am fine with that. I was questioning your inclusion of the null reads in your reads post. Why did you specifically include mastin and Anen in your reads list (as opposed to... say... eye and beast) when you literally had nothing interesting to say about them? E.g. Did I miss a post where someone asked you for your reads on those players? If you weren't going to post a reads list for all the players then why did you specifically include just those few null reads (because I assume you also null read all the players not mentioned). I was wondering if the unhelpful null reads we're added simply for filler. Does that make sense?

1: Well, the point of my bringing up that post was that you asked if it was "filler" and quoted the post right after TS also mentioned "filler", but without noting that.

2: I make a distinction between someone I've tried to read and came up null, vs one I haven't even attempted.

The players not listed in that post were ones who don't even warrant a "null" mention because I literally had no opinion whatsoever on them.

1: I read Tean’s post, I just didn’t feel like I had any reason to reference it. Tean called your whole post filler whereas I thought only 40% of it was. Also, Tean asked you why you didn’t include everyone else in your reads post. I was more interested in why you included the null reads. Similar, but not similar enough for me. Not sure how my ignorance of Tean’s question is telling…

2: The bolded is exactly what I am confused about. You say that you excluded people from the list because you had no opinion whatsoever on them. But you had literally no opinion to provide on Mastin or Aneninen either. You said: “Mastin — null, need more input.” and “Aneninen — null, insufficient content”. You say those are players that you tried to read, but I don’t see why you would choose Aneninen (the player with ‘insufficient content’) specifically instead of players that had contributed more.

No comment on Tean, but I'll tip my hand slightly further and tell you beast's town.

Can you please explain? (if you haven’t already)

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

Yes. How am I scummy again?

I explained in post 159. You’re either scum or insane if you think your extreme lack of contributions is evidence of a town role pm.

Wicked, how exactly is 'paying close attention to what's going on' a town-tell? I have noticed you used the same reasoning (Dave not paying attention) for Dave!Scum. Expand on this please.

Town’s goal is to figure out who scum are. Scum’s goal is just to appear like they’re trying to figure things out. Sure, all players have motivation to read the thread, but I think town have more incentive to be thorough in reading. I know that, personally, I pay much closer attention as town and I’m sure I miss more things when I am scum - I assume other players are similar. I get the impression that dodgy is town because he doesn’t have to be so thorough if mafia - he seems consistently interested and pointing out relevant things that I’ve noticed/agreed with. I have issue with dave’s lack of attention because paying close attention is how you find scum - it’s weird that dave would miss obvious things if he was really a townie on the case.

What do you think of my thoughts on dodgy so far?

The only thoughts I see are in response to posts 94 and 122. Please let me know if I missed anything.
94: I disagree with your thoughts here. You thought his question was really scummy, I didn’t find it telling either way. I can see the town motivation for his question (curiosity regarding the setup mechanics and how to scum hunt in this specific setup) and really didn’t read it the same way you did.
122: I agree with your thoughts on this. This is a scummy thing for dodgy to say. Feels like he wants to join the bandwagon, BUT he also wants solid justification for joining, BUT he wants to leave himself the option not to join too. Curious how he defends this.

@Wicked
Don't you think it's strange for Scum_Dave to antagonize players like Beast or Vettrock, currently not voting for him?

Where is he antagonizing Vettrock? I can’t find/remember it.

W.r.t. beast. I don’t think it’s strange for dave to antagonize beast. He had still been sitting on his random vote right before he voted beast. So he had to vote somebody. And while beast is suspicious, voting him is low risk at this point because, even if beast is town, he hasn’t been around. There’s also the possibility that dave and beast are partners, which I am currently considering. The vote presents very little danger to dave in that case too.

dodgy

, can you describe your amount of mafia experience prior to this game?

BBT

, you town read Tean. What do you think of

my

points against them?

Three more pages to go.

[Wickedestjr]

Page 13.

@Wicked
How confident are you about Dave being scum? It's true the early claims happened in Rome.

72% sure

Why 72%?

I’m not going to re-explain why I suspect him, but I can detail the missing 28%.
-It is/was fairly early in day 1 still.
-I have never played with dave. I don’t know anything about his game play and I haven’t checked his meta.
-I make mistakes sometimes. More specifically: if I’m wrong about dave feigning frustration to appear town, then his claim and self vote thought are both too scummy to be scum tells.

@Wickedestjr

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

Now this is a weird thing for

you

to say! Especially considering you cast the vote for davesaz immediately preceding eyestott’s vote (so you weren’t much faster to hop aboard). It also seems convenient how you start to cast doubt on the wagon, ‘coincidentally’, just after it starts to lose momentum.

1:

Could you show me where I started to cast doubt on a wagon? I'm not seeing it.

2:

Also, I didn't dislike eyestott's vote for jumping on the wagon, it was for jumping on it with shitty reasoning. He finds dav his top scumread but he doesn't vote until dav isn't at L-2 because he's scared of dav getting hammered? If he thinks dav is scum why the fuck would he be so concerned about him getting lynched?

1: In post 231 you said “I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly.” which feels like doubt in the dave wagon.
2: Which reasoning did you dislike? Post numbers? Not sure what posts you are referring to.

[Wickedestjr]

Thoughts to 392.

I have issue with both dodgy AND eyestott from their long exchange.

Feels like dodgy’s grasping at straws just trying to find something wrong with eyestott’s delayed dave vote. Not wanting to put someone at L-1 due to self-hammer consideration seems like a perfectly ordinary decision and one that’s not particularly telling either way. These last few pages are making me grow less confident in dodgy-town.

The reason for not putting dave at L-1 is fine, if true, but I’m not convinced that was eyestott’s real reason. eyestott said he decided to not put dave at L-1 ONLY because he had expressed self-voting intent, but eyestott expressed issue with dave in post 195 BEFORE dave expressed self vote intent in post 199. eyestott, if his self vote consideration was the only thing holding you back, why didn’t you vote him prior to its mention?

just did a re-read of all his posts.

im neutral -leaning scum on him. i dont like his involvement in the killa/dave bandwagons. he hasnt expressed a couple of opinions that generally follow the trend of what has been said in thread up to that point. i dont see him doing any scumhunting of his own and it feels like he is trying to just blend in.

They were first to attack the weak reads-list presented by Dave; I'm curious why you don't see that as independent scum-hunting.

This seems weak. If this is your primary example of Tean’s independent scum hunting, then I really think you need to reconsider. At the time of Tean’s reads-list attack, I think four people were voting dave, so Tean wasn’t really taking a risk here. Also, I think any player on this site could have noticed the lack in dave’s reads list - it’s not like Tean pointed out something inconspicuous that we all would have missed otherwise. Tean just happened to be first.

[Wickedestjr]

Post 393.

Wicked, I don't think it's good scum-hunting strategy to base your reads on players depending on how

you

play. Everybody plays differently. For example, I tend to pay more attention to the thread as scum because I know who is town and it always feels harder making cases when I know somebodies alignment.

Interesting. I actually hadn’t thought about it that way. Questions;
1. When you are mafia, do you still feel like you have to pay close attention even when you have already made cases?
2. If you pay

more

attention as mafia, that means you pay

less

attention as town. Why would you not pay as much attention as you could be, when town? That doesn’t really make sense to me.

Regardless of the accuracy of this ‘tell’, I still perceive dodgy as consistently interested and his attention to detail to be townish.

What do you make of Dodgy's defence against my accusation of 122?

It’s somewhat dissatisfying. He said “Dave is a player i would consider voting right now” and then “i want to know what your case against him is.” If he had just said the second part, then I’d have no issue with this and I’d believe his explanation that he was just trying to get a read on mastin. However, the first part contributes nothing to his question, so I can’t help but wonder if dodgy actually included that part to establish that he was on the fence.

I mean, in 160, I see no reason to scum-read someone because they present a case on someone who you don't think it scum. Town present cases on town all the time and it's not even like it was a

bad

case. Unless your town-read of Killa at that time was super-strong, and if it was, I would like to know how you arrived at that read.

Well, I do actually have a ‘super-strong’ town read on Killa, and I explained why in my post 159. It’s the strength of my town read + killa being an easy target that makes me dislike that Tean chose to target him. But ‘I dislike the target’ was only half of my point in 160. You ignored the last 80% of my Tean Samargo thoughts section.

As for 250,

1:

do you disagree with his reasoning for voting Dave? Because I found myself nodding my head when they picked him up for an awful reads-list,

2:

where am I going wrong here? Also, I find Tean's reasoning for Dave!Scum to be much more genuine and likely to come from a town mindset than eyestott's.

3:

Do you disagree?

1: No, I do not disagree with his reasoning.
2: I don’t think that Tean’s vote for dave was opportunistic. Based on your questions, I’m guessing that’s what you’ve assumed. If that is the case, then that’s where you’re wrong. I don’t think Tean’s vote is opportunistic. I just thought it was strange that Tean would call eyestott opportunistic when they voted dave around the same time. Strange does not mean ‘hypocritical’ in this case. Strange means ‘weird’, as in, Tean had just decided to commit to an L-2 dave vote - I wouldn’t expect a negative reaction to eyestott’s vote that came soon after.
3: I think Tean’s vote was justified better than eyestott’s vote, but I’m not yet sure which vote is more ‘genuine’. I don’t think this is a relevant question.

1: In post 231 you said “I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly.” which feels like doubt in the dave wagon.

1:

No, what it looks like is that Tean are aware of their reads and willing to reevaluate.

2:

Why would he be comfortable pushing a wagon that another of his scum-reads has jumped on?

3:

It seems you're determined to read scum motivation behind anything Tean does and my town-read on you is slipping.

1: Seriously? “Willing to reevaluate” sounds an awful lot like “doubt” to me. Definition of reevaluate: “evaluate again or differently”, neither of which seem necessary if Tean is confident in their read. I seriously can’t believe you disagree.
2: He shouldn’t be fully comfortable. That’s what I’m arguing. Not sure what your issue is.
3: That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all game. I said it looked like Tean was starting to doubt the dave wagon. You defend Tean by basically saying you think Tean was just reevaluating or uncomfortable with the wagon because of eyestott’s vote. How in the world is that different from what I’m saying? Seriously… I think you’re doing whatever you can to convince me Tean is town - even by trying to distinguish doubt from ‘will to reevaluate’ and ‘lack of comfort’. My neutral read on you is slipping towards scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Seriously infuriated/frustrated with BBT right now for that last one.

@town - if you read nothing else from my last post, please at least read my response to the last quote. Somebody please tell me I'm not crazy.

[Wickedestjr]

It's unclear what your reads on BBT and Dodgy are.

Dodgy- neutral, slight town lean - I

was

confident in Dodgytown, but the last few pages have made me start to reconsider

BBT- neutral, slight scum lean - I had several points against Tean which I felt very good about - it bothers me that BBT both completely disagrees with all my points AND has issue with me for disagreeing with him. Has he never had a townie disagree with him before? Also, I think BBT's last quote in 409 is just absurd.

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

Why did you feel the need to tell BBT you didn't think he was scum when you asked him this question, thus reducing the pressure? Seems a little suspicious.

I need to do some more analysis before I come back with more definitive scumreads.

Are you close?

[Wickedestjr]

Finally caught up - finished reading/responding. I need to think about the game now.

[Wickedestjr]

In this instance I am starting to think your push on Dave is incorrect and he just is naturally scummy, but I'm still pretty sure you are town.

BBT has done a good job of convincing me the Eyes L-2 was scummier than Tean's vote, I think you should vote Eyes.

For the record, dave is one of the players I am “thinking about” right now. Considering the amount of serious posts has almost doubled since I last developed reads, there are a lot of reads I’m reconsidering now.

I thought eyestott was scummy earlier, but he has defended against most/all my points. The only other reasons for his wagon that I’ve seen recently are BBT’s points (which I don’t like/agree with) and the criticism regarding eye’s dave vote, but I wasn’t really bothered by eye’s dave vote either. I don’t think this is a bandwagon that I will be joining today.

Copper, on several occasions you’ve based reads on players partially on how other players are treating them. Examples, a.) your comment about me in your very last post, b.) earlier you mentioned how the dog piling on dave made you uncomfortable with his wagon. Well now my question for you is this: can you name any player other than me that has issue with the eye bandwagon? If not, does that bother you? I haven’t checked everyone’s posts, but I can’t think of anyone town reading eyestott off the top of my head.

If Eyestott flips scum, Tean is most probably town, or at least, if both of them were scum, it would have been very dumb from them to jump on the Davesaz wagon with those posts. Also, if Eyestott is scum, that may clear Dodgy too, maybe.
Everyone, discuss these!

I agree with everything you say here.

BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

Why did you feel the need to tell BBT you didn't think he was scum when you asked him this question, thus reducing the pressure? Seems a little suspicious.

I've played with BBT before. His start here was different from the one I had seen in our game but his later "pushes" are the town-BBT I had met before. So, I simply don't know what to think. Does it make sense now?

That makes sense but doesn’t answer my question. I’m not asking you why you town read BBT, I’m curious why you felt obligated to attach that statement to your question.

holy shit this beast read is overdone too

[[[
eyestott
dodgy
mastin
//////
]

I have trouble believing this. dodgy vs. eyestott felt pretty genuine to me and basing mastin scum read solely under the assumption that dodgy/eyestott are scum seems like a stretch right now. +Scum points

[Wickedestjr]

Wow a lot of new posts. I've just finished reading everything, but it's late and I won't have time to post anything of value - there are a lot of posts I have marked to comment on. And I also still plan to update my reads given all the recent activity. Hopefully I can get this done asap tomorrow.

I was happy to see a few players contributing more - these last few pages are going to help me develop my reads. Unhappy to see that vettrock and beastcharizard have yet to contribute.

I still don't like this eyestott bandwagon. Is he at L-2 or L-1? Please don't lynch him. I'll try to encourage a better alternative.

[Wickedestjr]

Read everything up to 629. I have a lot to comment on. Pages 18/19.

It's practically a scumtell for beast to produce content, especially in the earlygame. Like I said, I've gotten a fairly good grasp on beast, and I'm decently sure this is his towngame. You don't have to LIKE him for it, but you're not getting a lynch on him for it as long as I live, because he's town even if you don't want that behavior to be.

While I generally like meta as a tool for scum hunting, I DO think there are situations where one needs to be careful using it. This is one of those situations. Isn’t “not producing content” a REALLY easy tell to fake here? If this tell is true, then I think he would be aware of the difference in his effort level. I have trouble seeing beast scum exhibit (what sounds to be) an obvious scum tell, especially when I believe his claim that he is busy in real life.

Can you please link or give me the name of the last beast scum game you have witnessed?

@Wicked
It is too early to say, I think bandwagons are good for late game analysis and I'm willing to support my townreads if I also dislike their targets and reasses after the reactions come in.

If it was too early to say for eyestott, then why wasn’t it “too early to say” for dave? The dave wagon came BEFORE the eyestott bandwagon. I don’t understand anything you said in this post beyond “game analysis and”… I don’t like this response, feels like you are selective when it comes to playing the “can’t be scum, no opposition” card.

@wicked no you are not insane, I do not know why BBT is trying so hard to defend Tean and buddying up to him.

Thank you very much.

Wicked, 429

"That makes sense but doesn’t answer my question. I’m not asking you why you town read BBT, I’m curious why you felt obligated to attach that statement to your question. "

– I'm not townreading BBT, I'm unsure about him. As for that comment, I know that it's going to sound scummy but sometimes I make remarks for myself for later. Even if I use the pronoun "you".

Hmmm… ok, but why did you include that comment there instead of in… say… your reads list?

Okay, I've seen it, Mastin.
Having no read of my own, I believe in your BBT read now.

How strong is this read? Feels a little bit lazy.

Sure, except everyone is clearly town-reading the shit out of you (except Heartless) so, no, not that much of a risk actually because EVERYONE is buying it.

Exaggeration. I, for one, never said I was town reading mastin.

The reason for not putting dave at L-1 is fine, if true, but I’m not convinced that was eyestott’s real reason. eyestott said he decided to not put dave at L-1 ONLY because he had expressed self-voting intent, but eyestott expressed issue with dave in post 195 BEFORE dave expressed self vote intent in post 199. eyestott, if his self vote consideration was the only thing holding you back, why didn’t you vote him prior to its mention?

My one point in 195 was not grounds enough to vote dave.

Where can I find your other points?

[Wickedestjr]

Pages 20/21.

I have trouble believing this. dodgy vs. eyestott felt pretty genuine to me and basing mastin scum read solely under the assumption that dodgy/eyestott are scum seems like a stretch right now. +Scum points

mmmmmmmmmmm not really

mastin read is based on
>the dave scumread is pretty nonsensical
>it's only supported by "if i said it, it wouldn't make sense". never stopped her from trying before
>mastin knows me and KNOWS that my scumgame is made up of prod dodges but seems to be applying that in the most superficial manner possible here

usually w/ mastin town, i see a sweet spot in the scum reads where i think "yeah, that sounds right" and that is NOTABLY absent in this game.

Adding other reasons for your suspicion doesn’t change the fact that the initial reason that your slot provided is a stretch. (I’m guessing that was Anti and not you, though).

you know, actually, i'm looking at the vote counts and i think tean is a scum anchor wagon. it's been static from the beginning and it's momentum is just PLOP sitting there.

and it's no good to begin with, either

killa/anen, mastin, copper
killa/anen, dodgy, dave
killa, anen, eyestott/dodgy

I don’t understand. What is this?

Clarification: I never said anything about self-hammering. I made a comment about self-voting, and I was talking in

past tense

(

had

been thinking about) referring to a time that the count was just 2-3 votes.

Not sure why you would lie about this, but something feels weird about it. Why would you self-vote at 2-3 votes but not at L-1? I don’t see the difference. Each is the equivalent of giving up.

It doesn't matter if Tean and

Dave

eyestott

voted 'at the same time', it's the reasoning behind those votes.

Your read on me is slipping towards scum because I disagree with you? Pur-lease.

Has he never had a townie disagree with him before?

It's funny that you post this right after your reasons for scum-reading me.

*Fixed. I still think Tean’s attack at eyestott felt weird. I’ll try explaining my thought process again in more detail. Looking at Tean’s vote for dave, there was no mention of him prior to the vote, a four vote bandwagon at the time, and Tean presented a new (yet obvious) point against dave when they joined. It’s weird that they voted him for that reads post but never mentioned him beforehand - it almost felt like they were waiting for some new ammunition to take advantage of, potentially to avoid getting attacked for opportunism. And this suspicion is supported by the fact that they attacked eyestott shortly after - they KNEW that they were late to join the wagon, they called ‘opportunism’ when eyestott cast the L-2 vote for dave. But they ALSO cast the L-2 vote for dave! This is also weird to me because I’d expect Tean, a player voting dave, to appreciate additional votes. Especially considering they wanted dave at L-2 and he was at L-3 when eyestott decided to vote. I don’t think eyestott’s vote justification was bad.

I wasn’t suspecting you for disagreeing with me. As I explained, I just felt that the last part of your Tean defense was a ridiculous stretch.

dodgy

, do you prefer playing as town or scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Ok, so I

was

going to devote my next post to two more pages, but then I got to 530. This gem deserves its own post;

Opinions on mastin? I don’t like how people are practically idolizing her and her actions. I think most of her actions are cryptic as fuck, and I'm not sure why some people are blindly following her

Starting to wonder if Tean and I are playing in the same mafia game. This entire quote is baloney.

The statement that “people are practically idolizing her” is a false exaggeration. I can't think of anybody that has come close to idolizing her. Tean, I would love to see examples that justify your statement.

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense. Tean joined the bandwagon that mastin started (surely they wouldn’t have issue with that following, they took part in it) AND mastin was the one that followed the eyestott scrutiny, not vice versa.

This whole post is absurd and feels like setting up to join a potential bandwagon that could form on mastin. I was going to finish responding to everything else before I voted, but this post just screams "I'm scum!" In combination with everything else I have pointed out regarding them, I will

Unvote. Vote: Tean Samargo

and encourage others to do the same.

[Wickedestjr]

@ ANYONE NOT VOTING EYESTOTT.

Please answer the question i ask here and explain to me how eyestott is thinking as town because i just dont see it.

-I can understand a player not wanting to put another player at L-1 early in the day.
-dave’s alignment was and still isn’t confirmed either way. Even with just a small amount of doubt, I can understand eyestott not wanting to risk the day ending early.
-I am convinced that, even if eyestott is scum, he would tell the truth about his views on voting strategy.

@All
Eyes is purposely not posting in this game at L-2 and I don't like it.

I’m okay with someone not posting for 26 hours.

Okay, so, I'm a tracker.

Did you breadcrumb this? If not, why not?

I’m calculating the probabilities to hopefully put an end to the math convo;

1^7 = (0.85 + 0.15)^7
= (0.85)^7 + 7(0.85)^6(0.15)^1 + 21(0.85)^5(0.15)^2 + 35(0.85)^4(0.15)^3 + 35(0.85)^3(0.15)^4 + 21(0.85)^2(0.15)^5 + 7(0.85)^1(0.15)^6 + (0.15)^7
= Zero I + One I + Two I + Three I + Four I + Five I + Six I + Seven I

Nada = Zero I = 32%
Tracker = One I = 40%
Tracker, 1-shot tracker = Two I = 21%
Tracker, tracker = Three I = 6.1%
Tracker, tracker, 1-shot tracker = Four I = 1.1%
Tracker, tracker, tracker, 1-shot tracker = Five-Seven I = negligible

So I agree with copper that any other multi shot tracker should claim right now. I’m willing to ignore the 6.1% case. I am not a multi-shot tracker.

@All
What do you think about Killa, that L-1 in the middle of the discussion about him and Aneninen being on Tean as a possible anchor wagon for scum is a problem for me.

The vote itself feels a little opportunistic, but I have no issue with the timing.

[Wickedestjr]

No, but I'm saying that, if I were scum, I'd likely pick tracker. It's easy to fake, given that in this game, it's just a yes/no of whether the person made an action.

:townposting:

But in the absence of one:

VOTE: Dodgy

I don’t like the speed of this vote considering you were just voting eyestott. Are you also in the club that thinks eyestott/dodgy was scum theatering?

429 - Wicked, what exactly don't you like about my scum!eye reasoning?

I see two points in your 393.
1: I see your point, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a scum tell, especially considering eyestott hasn’t exactly shown overwhelming confidence in his reads. I know that when I suspect somebody that also suspects me, I still want to convince them that they’re wrong even though I know they might not care. Doesn’t bother me that eyestott is exhibiting the same response.
2: I feel like this is a misrepresentation.

I'll sum it up again, just in case one of you has the misfortune of being tracker and is not claiming:

There is a 7% probability of there being 2 full trackers in this setup.

If a tracker cc's here, 93 times out of 100 we have a guaranteed scum lynch within the first two days and close to a 50% chance of lynching scum on our first day.

This play is superior to any other possible lynch you could come up with day 1, in comparison the average lynch rate based on reads is close to the probability of randomly lynching scum (some say even worse), which in this setup averages roughly 25% (half as much).

So if you are tracker it's necessary for you to claim here.

ok clearly i was misundestanding your reasoning, i thought you were suggesting that we couldnt have 2 full trackers. you are actually just suggesting that it is unlikely. That i can buy more.

Why are you still voting him then?

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked

If it was too early to say for eyestott, then why wasn’t it “too early to say” for dave? The dave wagon came BEFORE the eyestott bandwagon. I don’t understand anything you said in this post beyond “game analysis and”… I don’t like this response, feels like you are selective when it comes to playing the “can’t be scum, no opposition” card.

Because the Eyestott wagon had just started rolling while Dave's had already built momentum by the time I questioned the lack of resistance, it has nothing to do with the chronological order and everything to do with the time people had to react to it.

Eyestott had four votes when you said this. He later got up to L-2, with no opposition other than me, and you still didn't say anything about it - you didn't unvote until his claim. I still think that the eyestott bandwagon had more support than the dave bandwagon. Do you disagree?

I just want to say you're sort of missrepping that post. Not too surprising since I didn't put much time and detail to it. (And no it's not another editing fail).
-Faust

I've read your post several times and I don't see how it could be interpreted/treated any differently. I feel like

you're

the one misrepping.

@Wicked
If there is no cc I believe Eyes for today, in this case his read on Dodgy and my personal impression they were both scummy in the exchange, Eyes because the theory arguments he made were bad and Dodgy because he was scumreading Eyes for every second sentence, make Dodgy a good lynch for today. I do not believe they are scum together nor did I, I did find them both scummy individually.

I have trouble believing this. Dodgy was scum reading Eyes

for

the theory arguments that he made. So why is it a problem that Dodgy scum read him for every second sentence of that exchange when the entire exchange centered about those theory arguments?

@Heartless

- did you even read my vote post? how could that possibly be a town post from Tean? Cmon...


Reads;
killapenwin - still town
BBT - neutral, slight scum lean
eyestott - town
Heartless - neutral, very slight town lean - I really like the recent posts, but I'm still bothered by the original eye/dodgy/mastin proposition
davesaz - neutral, slight scum lean - still bothered by his play from earlier, willing to reconsider after the meta argument for him, but I haven't checked that for myself yet
copper - neutral, slight scum lean - mostly based on the things I question him on in this post
vettrock -
Aneninen - null - gut says town, but slight issues prevent me from fully town reading
dodgy - neutral, leaning town (upgraded to 'town' if he can explain the post(s) I just questioned him on)
Wickedestjr - obvious scum, can we lynch this guy? (AHAHAHAHA /originaljoke)
beastcharizard - null - is it too much to ask that you contribute something in a game that relies on conversation and communication of thoughts?
Tean Samargo - scum
mastin2 - neutral, slight scum lean - her early posts felt in line with how I perceive her town meta, but, again, she's probably capable of everything she's done thus far, the slight scum lean is a result of her f-bomby reaction to small-negligible things which feels a little disingenuous, has she done this as town before?

*Any read that doesn't include the words "null", "neutral", or "lean" is a strong read. I still don't have a lot of strong reads. Happy to talk about this later, but I've spent hours catching up and I'm done for tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

*catching up

again

tonight* /prod dodge

[Wickedestjr]

*catching up right now*

Mod:

I'm voting Tean right now.

[Wickedestjr]

*caught up*

Processing eleven new pages now...

[Wickedestjr]

New page, I need a VC to look at. I'm assuming Heartless's last vc post was accurate, somebody please correct me if this is wrong;

davesaz (3) - Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless,
copper223 (3) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, eyestott
Tean Samargo (3) - Aneninen, dodgy56, wicked
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
eyestott (1) - copper223
Heartless (1) - davesaz

Not voting (1) - vettrock

[Wickedestjr]

Eyestott had four votes when you said this. He later got up to L-2, with no opposition other than me, and you still didn't say anything about it - you didn't unvote until his claim. I still think that the eyestott bandwagon had more support than the dave bandwagon. Do you disagree?

I did not like the active lurking Eyes was doing by being active on the forum and not posting in the thread and that was my main focus, I was however not on the wagon when he claimed as I voted Mastin before because I liked the case TTH made on her (and I have an open post to her about it), so that is incorrect. I agree that by the end the Eyes bandwagon had more support.

This doesn't defend against my point, though. I understand that you were suspicious of eyestott. But you were also suspicious of dave. I understand that you were more suspicious of eyestott than you were of dave - that also doesn't defend against my point. You expressed doubt in the dave bandwagon because of 'dog piling' and 'little opposition' and these points are even stronger for eyestott, yet no mention of these points when you were voting eyestott. I thought the eyestott bandwagon was awful, that’s why it bothers me that you seem uncharacteristically loyal to it.

vettrock

why do you have Heartless as leaning scum?


More to come

[Wickedestjr]

Firstly, when examining what I posted, did you take in mind the context of the post? What it looks like is that you think my reply to penwin was a read. This is not exactly true. To understand my post fully, you must look at penwin's odd question:

@tean what do you think of mastin's holding her reads 'close to her chest'?

My post was/is

not

a current read of mastin. It was an opinion on her play earlier where she would literally just post "I think he's scum. Trust." and leave it for a day or two.

I never thought your post was meant to be a 'read'. Not sure why you got that impression. Also not sure how this distinction affects the validity of my points...

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

Here in this post, we see the white knight Eyestott defending the vague post. I see here that Eyestott is encouraging his fellow companions to trust mastin and to join the glorious dav bandwagon. He's fine with trusting her saying that she's a veteran, and/or the reason why she couldn't explain was because of a current game. 'Idolizing' might be a bit of a stretch, I must admit, but I do interpret this as blindly following seeing how quickly eye is willing to trust and defend mastin's 15 syllable argument.

Glad you have admitted that 'idolizing' was a stretch - it still bothers me though. And eyestott trusted that mastin had reasons he couldn't immediately divulge with us, but I don't consider that blindly following - he waited several days before voting dave. Your use of the word 'people' in 'people are practically idolizing her' and 'blindly following her' also seems like a stretch if this is your only example. Do you have any other examples?

Look, there's a little bit of a difference between "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining- lets trust him" and voting for someone with some sort of evidence. I thought that Dav was suspicious not because of what mastin had said, but because of his play. Two different things. You're sort of blowing it up and taking it out of context.

I don't think I'm blowing anything up. You say that you voted dave because he was suspicious and not because of what mastin said. But mastin never gave explicit reasons for suspecting dave, so EVERYBODY voting dave had to give their own reasons, just like you. Even eyestott, your example follower, voted dave for claiming prematurely - this was not a point that mastin mentioned prior to his vote. Nobody ever said anything along the lines of "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining - lets trust him", everybody gave their own reason for joining just like you. I think you're blowing this up.

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

My opinion is based on Mastin's earlier play. This is

obviously

not an opinion on her

current

play. Especially after she started revealing more.

This whole post is absurd and feels like setting up to join a potential bandwagon that could form on mastin.

So you're suggesting that I think mastin to be scummy? No where in this post states that I thought that mastin was scummy.

Okay, you're right here.

And please don't say disliking someone's opinion is scummy. I expect you to at least know this.

When did I say that?

[Wickedestjr]

I blame TTH for not being around if they are town because that ruined my plan a) after I joined this game just cause she asked me to, thanks bud, the best strat was to play scummy enough to potentially survive to lylo and more or less seal the win by baiting a quick hammer, that's why I naked voted and followed reads a lot, she should have known I don't play like this as scum and could relieve some pressure but her brother can't read me or is pushing a scum agenda, I think the first is more likely.

I REALLY don’t like this. Blaming Heartless for not being able to read you when you deliberately alter your play? I would expect someone to scum read you for playing scummy on purpose. There’s another hole in your plan: “play scummy enough” and “survive to lylo” - those don’t go together. I think you should know that drastically altering your play as a pr is usually a bad thing. I don’t buy this.

And the crumb is ridiculous too. The phrases “have a good shot” and “gun to head” are both perfectly ordinary.

Vengeful is a good claim for scum because it’s not at all testable. Also, at this point in the game, even if you are town, your power has no benefit. It doesn’t increase the number of kills that town has control over - a vengekill would simply replace our day 2 lynch. But I’d much rather have a day 2 lynch.

When have I ever successfully manipulated my meta? Also, this type of game is solely my town style of game as it makes me a huge target for a lynch or Vig kill.

If scum, you wouldn’t be ‘playing to win’ unless you made an active effort to manipulate your meta… If you were scum, why wouldn’t you just play the same way?

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

Wrong. The probability of two Ks is actually;
21(0.90)^5(0.10)^2 = 12.4%
Still pretty unlikely, but not as negligible as 1%.


This VCA seems really pointless, too many assumptions, not enough flips. I agree that dave’s recent activity jump feels solely motivated by the increasing pressure on him.

[Wickedestjr]

If scum, you wouldn’t be ‘playing to win’ unless you made an active effort to manipulate your meta… If you were scum, why wouldn’t you just play the same way?

I asked when I did it successfully.

I don't know the answer to that - doesn't matter to me. But I do know that 'not doing anything' isn't a tricky play style to fake. If you aren't willing to try it as scum, then you wouldn't be playing to win.

Also, there is no benefit of lurking at this time. Late game sure lurking has its benefit, but early game it is a death sentence.

Yes, but it is okay for you because that's your town meta. Don't act like you aren't aware of that.

I have my reasons for not being around and yes it is a strategy. If dave is scum it totally worked.

Brilliant.

[Wickedestjr]

*catching up right now*

Mod:

I'm voting Tean right now.

That vote was not counted because it was not placed correctly.

Votes must be on

their own line

for easy recognition.

Got it, won't happen again.

[Wickedestjr]

I have noticed that people seem to be ruling out vettrock and beast for lynches today because their lynches would yield no information. I agree with this idea, I also don’t want to lynch either of them today. However, I would like to point out a key difference between the two of them. vettrock has contributed very little, but has at least made a small effort and expressed intention to develop his reads. beast has done nothing and made no promises of anything - if he lives for too long I fear that he will always continue to be an irrelevant slot. I’m fine giving vettrock more time to further develop his reads, even though I think he should be more confident at this point. I’m not fine waiting on beast - I really think that beast should be pressured after night 1, if he’s still alive. Don’t let him continue to slide under the radar.

I like all three of the major bandwagons right now. While there is a good chance that copper is scum, the consequences of mislynching him, if he’s town, would be the worst in my opinion. As I said before, his vengekill essentially replaces our day 2 lynch. I’d prefer our day 2 lynch to be decided based on a full day and night’s worth of information. A vengekill today would be based solely on day 1 info from a player that would have no flips to work with. So the day 2 lynch is better. Furthermore, between dave/copper/Tean, I think copper is third scummiest

anyway

.

Between davesaz and Tean Samargo, I think dave is significantly scummier - he’s active when under pressure and coasting when not. Consider also his weak scum hunting, various strange posts and seemingly attempted town tells throughout the thread and you’ve got a player that in no way resembles town. His lynch is also superior to Tean’s in that he is already known not to be a town power role. We could get him today and Tean wouldn’t have to claim before the night. Tean is still suspicious, but I think dave is the best choice now.

Unvote. Vote: davesaz (L-2)

[Wickedestjr]

Between davesaz and Tean Samargo, I think dave is significantly scummier - he’s active when under pressure and coasting when not. Consider also his weak scum hunting, various strange posts and seemingly attempted town tells throughout the thread and you’ve got a player that in no way resembles town. His lynch is also superior to Tean’s in that he is already known not to be a town power role. We could get him today and Tean wouldn’t have to claim before the night. Tean is still suspicious, but I think dave is the best choice now.

Quote it and explain why it's scummy. Not a single player has been able to do that the entire game.

I mean, c'mon people, not everyone can be mensa strength, but at least some of you must have a little intelligence.

I've explained why I think you're scummy in the post that you've quoted here...

-You're active when under pressure and coasting when not.

- I shouldn't have to give you evidence of that, because it’s obvious. And it's scummy because it means your activity is dictated by the attention you are receiving rather than by a desire to catch scum.

-Weak scumhunting

- I’ve already given examples of this. Heartless was nice enough to quote again, but I will not be. This is scummy because it indicates a lack of motivation (or no motivation at all).

-Various strange posts

- I’ve also already given examples of these. When I use the word ‘strange’ that means ‘scummy’, ftr.

-Seemingly attempted town tells

- When things come across as an effort to appear town rather than a genuine town reaction, that is very scummy. I’ve also given examples of this too.

TL;DR - I’m not quoting myself. My RL work load is piling up right now and I don’t feel like it is worth my time to repeat things I’ve already said to a player that I suspect and believe will ignore/deny what I say anyway.

[Wickedestjr]

TTH only has completed games with me as scum and this is not how I play it, so I did not alter my scum meta as far as she knows, I have played in what can superfically be classified as a scummy fashion by voting a lot of players and wagon hopping, did you see how many players I have been scumreading this game, basically everyone minus Beast, Tean and Vettrock, and those because of lack of content, and you because the way you have been analysing this game is pretty pro town so likely coming from a town as well, this is going to change right about now because I am on the same page as mastin with a team of

Ok, but TTH is one player (or half a player) in a game where the majority is seven. And you admitted to playing scummy, so I don't see why it matters that you played a different 'scummy'. Also, why couldn't you have waited until lylo to act scummy?

As for your wagon comment on Eyestott, your point is I did not see the same, or worse, wagon dynamics going on with Eyes,

I'm telling you I did not notice the same lack of resistance in his wagon that I got from Dave

, if your interpretation is correct, likely because when Dave was getting driven to L-2 nothing else was going on, during the Eyestott wagon period we had other reads floating about like Heartless saying he liked Aneninen and Killa as scum, the absence of a vote count also made it harder to see how quickly Eyes was driven to L-2 the first time, after I left the wagon my main concern moved to TTH's case on Mastin and if she was onto something, until Killa erroneously put Eyes to L-1 and I went back to check on the Eyes play and found he was actively lurking, that sums it up for me.

The bolded seems to contradict what you said before. In post 655, you said "I agree that by the end the Eyes bandwagon had more support."

@All
If Eyestott is scum you should revisit Wicked as well, from his play alone he looks pretty town but he is defending him pretty strongly.

It really frustrates me when people say this kind of thing. I've lost count of how many times I've heard this, because this happens time and time again. Everyone is attacking a player... I think that player is town... I say that I think that player is town... at least one player gives me flak for disagreeing (even though the player hasn't even flipped yet)... that player flips town... lynch wasted. This happened in my last two games;
Open 563, everyone wants to lynch The Bulge, I say he's town, he gets lynched day 2 and flips town.
Open 558, everyone wants to lynch tn, I am certain that he's town, people don't listen and I even see the "Trust me Wicked" from another townie. tn flipped town.
Please don't play this card. This happens to me often. Even if I was scum here, I wouldn't be foolish enough to strongly defend a partner - I've tried that before and it went horribly wrong (but wifom I guess). I am confident that eyestott is town.

[Wickedestjr]

BTW,

if

Mastin turns up scum here.

I knew on page 2.

That's really interesting considering;
A. You've never voted mastin.
and
B.

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

[Wickedestjr]

Like I said, if they voted with a reason, its because there's something scummy about the person. I didn't say that the voting itself was blindly following, but rather the interaction before the voting seemed like some people (in this case Eye) were blindly following to me.

I still disagree. As I said before, eye gave his own mastin-independent reason for voting dave. Is your use of the word "people" here another mistake?

When did I say that?

You didn't, but I assumed this was the reason why you thought I was about to jump on Mastin.

No, that wasn't my reason. I mistakenly thought your "idolizing" and "cryptic as flip" comments were supposed to indicate suspicion. And if you were starting to be suspicious of mastin, then I predicted a jump.

[Wickedestjr]

davesaz - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Dodgy, Tean, eyestott

davesaz - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, Copper

davesaz - Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless, beastcharizard, Wickedestjr

=> 8 individual players willing to sit on a L-2 davesaz lynch, is scum bussing or inactive? This looks like a town mislynch to me.

Eight? Wow. That's a lot more than eleven. Eleven people suspected eyestott before he claimed... yet somehow 'lack of opposition' is only a problem for the dave bandwagon. I still don't get it.

[Wickedestjr]

Wrong. Mastin screamed that he was town earlier and Copper vouched for him in 158

Ok there would be

some

information gained from a beast lynch, but the quantity of info gained would be significantly low in comparison to most other options (all but vettrock). As I said in the first paragraph of my 954, I think beast is a bad lynch today but a great person to pressure tomorrow if he's still alive. I think you should vote someone else, even if beast was a good lynch right now, there's not any support there.

[Wickedestjr]

We've lost a lynch.

I have copper leaning scum at this point, but I'm not confident enough to risk the vengeful kill, so I don't think we should lynch him.

1. Can you explain what you mean by this?

Heartless on the other side appears more to just write me off as scum since I haven't contributed as much at this point. Also a bit on the OMGUS.

Earlier I saw that you scum read them, I asked why, and you didn't answer. 2. Can you please explain that as well? 3. Any new read developments?

Vote: beastcharizard

. Who is scum?

*Rereading now*: the night deaths do squat for my reads, need a day or two to look at the dave wagon and check some other things as well...

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game.

Can you explain? Heartless is a slot I’m having trouble getting a strong read on.

I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

What’s there to figure out? I already explained yesterday that I was giving beast and vettrock a free pass because I knew their lynches would yield close to nothing. But I can’t give players a free pass and also give them a clean slate the next day. They need to contribute, we have enough info for them to have thoughts. vettrock has expressed an intent to contribute.
-beast has made no promises of doing anything helpful.
-He’s not playing the game - he’s the secret backup mod if I didn’t know any better.
-I’ve played with town beast before and he put way more effort in our past game together, his play here is completely different.
-Your criticism of this bandwagon frustrates me.
-As I said before, I need to reread. I was wrong yesterday. If I wasn’t voting beast, I wouldn’t be voting right now.

Killapen is back to being scummy (my reads this game have been embarassing), he asked me yesterday what he needed to do to prove himself, why would you say that to the guy you think is fake claiming?

I’ve been strong town reading killa, but this seems like a really good point. Couldn’t find the evidence, myself, though. Post #?

Dave

, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted. Me, the person strongest pushing you, would have unvoted off of your play that last day. Why? Because

you were actually being town

. I don't really have the ability right now to give you a description of what you did so differently to cause that change, but I think even you have a general sense of what you did that was different. So, uh...basically, free advice from me: do what you did the last day, ALL the time. You'll not regret it.

This seems a little bit convenient and hard to believe. Can you help

me

understand why you would have unvoted? You must have seen something strong if you were willing to unvote a player (so close to deadline) that you had been strongly scum reading all game…

[Wickedestjr]

Damned right I'd have unvoted had I been around. If I gave the description I am giving right here, right now, about dave, unvoted him, and you were on the wagon...wouldn't you? It's the reason I owe dave an apology.

You bring up some good points, but I personally saw nothing strong enough to make me ignore

everything else

and unvote him

so close to deadline

. Oh, one more question: have you ever apologized to a player you’ve mislynched or tried to mislynch before?


I'll try to figure out this game during the weekend...

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, 1111 –

"I already explained yesterday that I was giving beast and vettrock a free pass because I knew their lynches would yield close to nothing."

– Where? Can you link it?

This post;

I have noticed that people seem to be ruling out vettrock and beast for lynches today because their lynches would yield no information. I agree with this idea, I also don’t want to lynch either of them today. However, I would like to point out a key difference between the two of them. vettrock has contributed very little, but has at least made a small effort and expressed intention to develop his reads. beast has done nothing and made no promises of anything - if he lives for too long I fear that he will always continue to be an irrelevant slot. I’m fine giving vettrock more time to further develop his reads, even though I think he should be more confident at this point. I’m not fine waiting on beast - I really think that beast should be pressured after night 1, if he’s still alive. Don’t let him continue to slide under the radar.

Wicked gives me town-vibes, but sometimes I can't focus on his long posts, and it's not a good sign. (I remember doing that as scum – although, I do the same as town...)

Making long posts isn't unusual for me. And it's not my fault that you can't focus on my posts nor do I see how my long posts differ from others - I think I have made meaningful/relevant contributions. Your hesitance seems weak...

My idea was to be an easy mislynch. On day 1 scum always look for a mislynch they can push. I figured I would try to bait them into pushing me. Then if they were remotely successful I would come out the gate swingy and show that I am actually town and that the push is scum motivated and only being done because it looked easy.

Boo. It should have been clear a week before deadline that nobody was going to pursue your lynch. Yet you persisted. You effectively threw away your day 1 in exchange for an unreliable trap that was a clear early failure. I don't like it.

Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I still think he is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.

Sorted much later? I would like to point out that it's mylo or lylo tomorrow if we don't get mafia today. Sure, even if he's scum, there are others to catch, but I really don't think he should be given any more time than he's already been given. If he's scum and survives without actually doing anything just because of his foolish 'trap attempt' and 'town meta that is easy to fake', then I would be disappointed.


I'll try to guess the scum team later this weekend.

[Wickedestjr]

Working on a post now.

/prod dodge

[Wickedestjr]

My reads, in order from towniest to scummiest. (I’ve only skimmed the posts following my last non-proddodge post, but I’m sure that won’t affect these reads considerably).

vettrock - I 100% null read him yesterday because he wasn’t contributing reads and, believing that he eventually would, I decided to ignore him temporarily. However, after rereading his posts and thinking about everything that has happened, I now realize that vettrock is very likely town for three reasons, listed in order of increasing strength. #3. His day 2 posts, so far, look townish. Particularly his 1119 where it looks like he’s putting a genuine effort into this game and his responses to mastin2, which feel like town reactions to an incorrect suspicion (1120, 1133, 1155). #2. The contribution delay doesn’t feel scum motivated. It took him a long time to start developing reads, despite showing scum-hunting interest early on. But his posting at end of day 1 and start of today show that he is either fully capable of scum hunting or capable of pretending to as scum. I just don’t see why he would wait so long to spring into action (with players expressing impatience towards him) unless he was town genuinely struggling with reads. #1. His strong town read on eyestott, for the reason he has implied in 925 and 1156, makes no sense if he is scum. Trust me on this last point. = STRONG TOWN


Killapenwin – I have always had a strong town read on killa, and I still do. There is literally no aspect of his game play that I currently have issue with. His posts give off strong town vibes. = STRONG TOWN


Heartless – Haven’t seen anything particularly telling from TTH, but I think the Antihero head seems pretty fearless. I checked their meta and couldn’t really distinguish between TTH’s town and scum game, but agree that this looks like Antihero town. I also really liked this slot’s play towards the end of day 1 – particularly their interactions with dave. It came across as genuine frustration and very confident – they were wrong about dave, but I have trouble seeing them express so much confidence in that mislynch as scum. The ‘hydra dynamic’ reads as genuine to me as well. I am aware that this is largely a gut/meta read, but my gut is accurate enough that I feel comfortable trusting it here. = PROBABLY TOWN


BlueBloodedToffee – For the most part, I like the way that he is playing here. After looking at his meta (*gasp*), I really think his effort here feels like ‘scumhunting’ rather than ‘just trying to slide by’. He also seems pretty fearless, not afraid of attracting attention, and I especially like how he seems to interact with everybody. Two reservations, however; #1. He’s a good/experienced player, might be savvy enough to fool me here – there are no strong gut vibes either way. #2. His strong town reading of Tean still feels weird – I’ll admit I don’t know why he, as scum, would defend Tean in the manner that he did (because I seriously doubt they’re partners), but I also can’t understand it from BBTown either. Overall, BBT seems town but I may never feel strongly about it. = TOWN


Aneninen – A lot of the things I said regarding BBT actually apply to Aneninen too. “For the most part, I like the way that he is playing here. After looking at his meta (*gasp*), I really think his effort here feels like ‘scumhunting’ rather than ‘just trying to slide by’” BUT “there are no strong gut vibes either way”. One thing that distinguishes Anen from BBT (and the reason why Anen is lower on this list) is that Anen does not appear as fearless – something about his play feels slightly… cautious. But I currently have nothing concrete against him. = TOWN


mastin2 - Okay, there are several things I like about mastin’s play and several things I don’t like. Things that might indicate mastintown - a.) again, still think her scum hunting style during early day 1 resembled her town meta, b.) some of her self-meta posts give off strong town vibes, best example: post 1144 where she basically showcases her abilities as scum (have trouble seeing her do that as scum). c.) I have no idea who she could be partnered with. Things that might indicate mastinscum - Her reads are weird. a.) She strongly suspected dave for all of day 1 only to distance herself from the bandwagon at the start of today. b.) She guarantees vettrock (a player that I’m 97% certain is town) is scum, but the read feels inconsistent. c.) She town reads beast for meta despite the tell being very easy to fake. She wants to sort him later even though we are a day before lylo… ALSO another very slight issue, d.) mastin says;

As for the "helpful hint..." what'll happen if we lynch Vettrock and he flips scum?

It's proof that, IF I were scum, I'd have powerbussed him. Which as anyone familiar with me knows (anyone reading my academy work alone would know, but I also wrote the "Stop bussing!" article for damn good reason), is...well, not

impossible

, but incredibly improbable.

This is ironic, because, the very first mastin scum game I found: link involved mastin bussing considerably. This probably doesn’t mean anything considering vettrock is probably town, but just thought it was interesting. Overall, I have too many problems with mastin to town read her, even though a large portion of her play seems townish. = SCUM


copper223 - Two issues with his play which I have already described. 1. Felt like his eyestott vote was opportunistic. (see third paragraph of my 429 and all of 935) 2. Did NOT like his explanation behind how he altered his play with the vengeful townie role. I have trouble believing it. (see 946) His play seemed okay aside from those two things, but nothing I don’t think he couldn’t fake as scum and these problems are big for me. = SCUM


Tean Samargo - A lot of things I’ve already said… 1. A few of their comments felt disingenuous, one of which I criticized yesterday. 2. Still really dislike their killapenwin vote from yesterday. 3. I liked the dave bandwagon, but I still dislike how they accused eyestott of opportunism when he voted dave right after they did. 4. Seems like they were waiting for dave to do something else that was scummy so that they could have their own reason for joining the bandwagon. Then they left their vote on dave for all of day 1 - it feels like they coasted through the larger part of day 1. 5. When they are contributing, I get the impression that it is motivated by desire to appear town rather than desire to catch scum. = SCUM


beastcharizard - The key difference between beastcharizard and vettrock is that the former never showed interest whereas the latter always did. The lack of contribution or scum hunting from beast shows lack of interest. He ignores the fact that ‘not contributing’ is an easy tell for him to fake as scum (easy because it literally entails doing nothing) in an effort to defend himself. He attributes his lack of play to a very unreliable ‘trap’, which was clearly unsuccessful from the get go seeing as nobody took the ‘bait’ early on. Yet he continued to do nothing anyway. Now he’s voting a prob. town slot. = PROBABLY SCUM


If there’s an SK, I’m pretty sure it’s NOT any of my top four town reads. Anyone else is fair game, though.

I will confidently say that scum are in {BBT, Aneninen, mastin, copper, Tean, beast}. Specific guess: copper/tean/beast for mafia and Anen for SK…

[Wickedestjr]

I haven't read the last page or two as thoroughly as I'd like, but I did notice some mass claim talk. I think this is an appropriate idea considering we're a day before lylo already.

[Wickedestjr]

I've fallen behind in RL and in this game. Will try my best to catch up, but the next few days are going to be very busy for me - it sucks.

I still like mass claim (have any counter arguments been made?). I like the idea of popcorn claiming.

I'd propose beast, Tean, or mastin as first. Don't really care which. But I noticed that Tean is getting replaced and it might be beneficial to have their replacement claim immediately - it would be hard for them to fake anything before reading the thread.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up right now.

And, yeah. Wagon on me, scummy-as-hell.

All the players on it basically are saying "Oh, yeah, mastin's scum", while giving each other as my partners...and not pausing to join anyway.

Not all scum, obviously, but absolute MINIMUM of two.

This is an interesting thing for you to say given Organic Chemistry, the game where your bandwagon was all town. Why do you think this bandwagon is different?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, 1202 – nice summary. But, you should read the recent posts too! After doing so
(1) Do you STILL think that Vettrock is town?
(2) What do you think about Coppers posts I mentioned in this post?
(3) Also, read my case about Mastin too.
(4) As for your next post: why do you think a massclaim would be useful?

(1) Yes
(2) The setup point looks valid. I disagree with your eyestott point.
(3) Your last three points are good. I think your first point is just a mastin tell rather than a scum tell.
(Bonus) Why are you asking me for my thoughts on your points against copper and mastin? I already scum read them.
(4) I like to have mass claim occur a day before lylo, because I believe that can help prevent counter claims. I'm not too concerned about scum killing power roles because the benefits (possibly clearing people and breaking the setup apart) outweigh the disadvantages (the power roles might only have one night left to use their actions anyway) - we sort of have to put all our information on the table to prevent another mis-lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

Vengeful doesn't seem a great fake-claim for scum to make.

I disagree with this. He was getting votes at the time of his claim. Now, he has lived to day 2 (because his claim made him a terrible day 1 lynch) and, at the time of this post, I don't think anyone was voting him. If he's scum, seems like the claim worked for him.

[Wickedestjr]

For the record, I noticed vettrock's breadcrumbs as well. This was the basis for my strong town read on him - I cannot envision any clear scenario where he's faking this claim.

[Wickedestjr]

Anen, I like your post w.r.t. copper.

That is a misrep worthy of a lynch, I said I missed part of the setup where it says only 7 roles are determined and the rest is filled in, I never said I did not read it,

Really? You seemed to be doing the math correctly on day 1...

[Wickedestjr]

Don't have time to finish catching up right now, but I will try tomorrow night.

At this point, I'm actually growing more confident in my beast/copper/Tean guess. From the five/six pages I read, copper looks slightly worse, mastin actually looks a little better (one or two posts gave me town vibes, can specify upon request later), and Anen is upgraded to a PROB TOWN read. Not sure who the SK is anymore... could be mastin...

[Wickedestjr]

Caught up.

Still think we should have reaction tested Tean's replacement, but it's too late now.

I am a VT.

Thoughts coming

[Wickedestjr]

But seriously, because Organic Chemistry was the exception proving the rule: when I am town, damn right any attempt to lynch me is gonna be scumdriven. Organic Chemistry had odd circumstances surrounding it, which are absent from this game. There, players knew me but I had just changed my style. Here, most do not, thus, this is their first full introduction to me.

Fair point.


The copper vs. BBT exchange was really weird. BBT's side doesn't really make sense for him as either alignment - the amount of 'derp' is hard to believe if he's town, but I also have trouble seeing him play so carelessly as scum. I am inclined to think his recent play has been genuine 'derp' but there's a considerable possibility he's scum trying to feign carelessness for town points. Regardless, if he's town, he needs to get his head in the game.

I'm not crazy about copper's posts in that exchange either. Specifically, copper's claim that he will request BBT's ban for his anti-town behavior if he's town is really suspect. Note that copper read BBT as scum at the time - so why would he be thinking about banning BBT if and when he flips town? He read BBT as scum and he believed BBT was ruining the game for town (by trying to get copper lynched without reading). If copper

really

thought BBT was scum then how would BBT's 'ruining of the game for town' lead to an intent to request banning (something copper would only do if BBT flipped town)? I would expect it to simply strengthen copper's scum read on him, because 'ruining the game for town' would fit perfectly in line with the scum read he already had at the time. His ban statement is a completely unnatural response for townCopper. On the contrary, it is a perfectly natural protective response from scumCopper (criticizing BBT's vote for him - it clearly worked because BBT switched his vote). I think this is a strong point, but I fear that I explained it poorly. Does it make sense?

I am growing significantly more confident in my scumCopper read right now. For that, and everything else, I am going to

Unvote. Vote: copper

.

[Wickedestjr]

I am

still

liking my beast/copper/Tean theory.

Really weak point: beast's consistent misspelling of copper's name (unless they have a prior experience that explains this) feels like it could be distancing.

I really want to know what Tean claims... it's pretty important.

Mod: Could we have an extension until Tean has been replaced?

[Wickedestjr]

Nope, this and the other point you brought up previously about missing the setup don't make sense because they are not alignment indivative or hint at me being town

I need to reread your setup speculation - I'll get back to you on this. The point I just brought up IS alignment indicative because your intent to ban BBT (if he flips town) is out of place / doesn't resemble town thinking if you also thought BBT is scum - it makes much more sense from a scum protective mindset, criticizing BBT's play to deflect his vote.

you are definitely the same alignment as Vettrock so this makes me want to shoot him more.

You are almost certainly right, but vettrock is an awful shot (I seriously don't understand how anyone can scum read him right now). Please explain your thinking.

[Wickedestjr]

Doing some VCA, and noticed this; now, you have to believe that I am telling the truth about being hider and that Killa is conf town.

davesaz

(7) -

Tean Samargo

, Mastin2,

Heartless

, beastcharizard, Wickedestjr, vettrock,

copper223

copper223 (3) -

BlueBloodedToffee, eyestott

beastcharizard (1) -

killapenwin

Tean Samargo (2) - Aneninen,

dodgy56

mastin2 (1) -

davesaz

Look how hard scum had to push to secure a mislynch. All the 'confirmed townies' are off the dave wagon.

Mastin, Wicked and Vettrock; look at this VC and tell me what you think.

I am inclined to think that all the scum (SK included) were on that bandwagon. So, even though I don't think the team is Tean-Heartless-copper, this VCA certainly does not oppose your theory. Given that I know I am town and strongly believe vettrock is town, this vote count indicates that copper is mafia (the alternative is that the mafia were three of the first four votes, or I am wrong on a town read, both of which I doubt).

If these reads are accurate, good luck to scum and the SK, I totally did not enjoy being part of this town.

Why not? (AtE?)


Aneninen has been promoted to strong town. His conviction in his ideas looks very genuine.

[Wickedestjr]

davesaz (7) - Tean Samargo,

Mastin2

, Heartless, beastcharizard,

Wickedestjr

,

vettrock

, copper223
copper223 (5) -

mastin2

,

vettrock

,

Wickedestjr

, BlueBloodedToffee, Aneninen

3/5 more than half the copper wagon was on dave, AND if beast hammers (he's been calling copper scum), that'll make 4

IT'S THE SAME FUCKING PEOPLE

so, i'm sorry bbt, how is it that it's

OMG SO SCUMZORZ

about the dave wagon but

OH SO TOWNIE

about the copper one given the shit distribution and lack of a counterwagon

Ughh... I am getting sick of this card. vettrock is town, I am town, Aneninen is town, BBT is

probably

town... If there's scum on that wagon then it's mastin, but I'm not sure that she is scum either. Who are the scum on this bandwagon? I think copper is very suspicious and see nothing weird about the way his bandwagon formed. Have you read my points w.r.t. copper? I don't see what you're seeing.

[Wickedestjr]

Seriously hoping we can get a claim from Tean's slot before day ends. A few players have assumed that they'll claim VT, but I see no reason to make that assumption and it is the single reason why I have avoided setup speculation. If Tean's slot is scum planning to claim PR, then letting them survive this lynch without claiming is a huge advantage for them. If Tean is town, then their claim could yield very helpful information which is more powerful if earlier imo.

Again,

Mod: Can we please have a deadline extension for our replacement?

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote.

I voted copper, but I guess I forgot to put it on its own line again. Given that a lot has happened today, I need to (fully) catch up and think about everything.

Yes you did, in post 1414. I missed it. Fortunately it doesn't change anything, even with that vote counted copper was never hammered.

Day 2 continues. Deadline still frozen until I find a replacement for copper.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up...

(8) Copper is faking as town and he's a Vigilante. I'd hate this. Personally, I don't think it would have been a good idea from Copper but it's possible that he wanted to help the town and it went very wrong. In this case, there's no SK and Tean must claim a PR.

Overall possibility: ???

– Copper, this is your last chance to admit this!

If you do so, I'll unvote you.

That's all he'd have to do? Copper could just lie and survive another day. This does not seem like a town mindset, especially considering, IIRC, you had a decently strong scum read on copper...

[Wickedestjr]

Just read page 62.

If copper's town, then he ruined this game for himself. I don't believe any of his attacks deserved that reaction. Admittedly, I'm having slight doubts about the copper bandwagon though;
-I was kinda expecting the premature self-hammer. If copper is scum, in a clear near-death scenario, there's a significant advantage to hammering before the Tean slot can claim (regardless of Tean/Titus's alignment). Maybe he thought he could sway the vote elsewhere, but he was in a position to end the day prematurely and he chose not to.
-If he was scum feigning frustration with BBT, why would he violate the 'no public hatred' rule thus risking (and eventually leading to) his ejection? Sure, it could have been genuine frustration from scum copper, bothered by BBT's lack of attention to the game, but if he was

that

angry maybe he would have self-hammered.

I'm still 'leaning scum' but we cannot ignore these ideas... BBT, what do you think of this?

[Wickedestjr]

Forgot to talk about this;

Titus's vig claim is interesting, because it is an indicator that she is probably not mafia. These are the possibilities;
-Titus is actually a vig. - Possible
-Titus is an SK pretending to be a vig. - Possible
-Titus is mafia, pretending to be the vig, gambling on the hypothetical SK not countering. - This is a risky move for Titus mafia, because SK would almost certainly target Titus tonight. There's a slight chance that Titus is mafia with a bus driver power for protection, but no other mafia role could protect her and I doubt she would make this move with so little time to claim.

TL;DR - I am not voting Titus today.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 63.

-The haiku 'crumb' is a good catch, but I doubt it is an actual breadcrumb. If Tean were to crumb, I would expect them to do it in the right order and not while writing a haiku. Null imo.
-I don't think the number of night 1 deaths should affect our setup speculation. With a jail keeper, potential double kills, and a potential hider, anything could have happened last night to make three kills look like two.

There could be benefit to setup speculation, but I think it needs to be done very carefully. I plan to crunch the numbers and think about who could be faking later; when I am caught up, fully awake, and have the time.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 64. And I dislike this post;

What if we lynch Vettrock and see the flip. Then if it is scum all the PRs could be telling the truth but if it is town then Titus shoots someone and if Cooper is alive we lynch him since he is either scum or vengeful where he can shot someone scummy.

An idea would be to have BBT hide behind Me or Heartless. I want to be cleared and I think Heartless is scum so they are both good plays. It also makes scum guess who to shoot if BBT is actually a Hider.

Titus shoots someone of their own choosing who isn't me or Heartless or Copper slot.

Actually what if BBT hides behind Copper slot? If just BBT ends up dead then copper is scum. If just Copper is dead then BBT is lying. If both are dead then it is the same thing as what a lynch today would have done. If they are both alive then copper should be confirmed town. We would have to no lynch to make sure we aren't walking right into LYLO or MYLO though from my quick math. Titus could shoot anyone they wanted and Vettrock should someone random.

Opinions?

1. I thought you were town reading vettrock? If you changed that, then I missed it, but otherwise, any plan that involves lynching vettrock today seems like an awful plan that I would not forgive the voters for. This seems like a weird suggestion for you.
2. Directing the hider is also bad. If BBT is really a hider, then we need to keep his next choice an absolute secret.
3. Scum could have a JOAT (with role blocker) and or a bus driver, both are roles that could severely screw with our minds. In general, if they have any idea who's doing what, they can probably take advantage of it - potentially rendering our power roles as harmful rather than helpful.
4. I think you are making assumptions that you shouldn't be making.

+Scum points

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 65.

If we no lynch we should guarantee that we are not in LYLO tomorrow

. Titus doesn't shoot anyone and we go through with the Vettrock->BBT->Copper plan to see if we can gain any information. Busdriver will either redirect the Hider to scum, if not already on scum, or redirect Vettrock to someone who did nothing. Roleblock will just stop Vettrock or BBT.

At most we should have two kills tonight

if they busdrive BBT to a scum person if BBT is even a Hider.

If we no lynch and two people die tonight, then we are in MyLo tomorrow which is almost LyLo...

Hmm... is it not possible for there to be a vig AND an SK? IIRC, I didn't see any mention of that, but I don't see why we'd rule that out.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 66.

We don't have to do the plan. Also, I am trying to win the damn game. What are you doing?

Titus, this is the first time I am town reading you please don't fuck it up.

*everything feels off here*

BBT's hider breadcrumb actually looks legitimate. It was page 12 (I think), but it was his first serious post of the game. He's either a hider or scum that set that up. I cannot envision a scenario where he accidentally posts the breadcrumb in his first serious post AND just happens to notice it as scum (who goes back looking for a crumb they didn't intentionally make?). BBT town read is growing stronger.

Ehh... I really don't want to no lynch today. Haven't thought about the setup enough yet to rule it out as an option, but I

will

think about the setup over the next few days.

[Wickedestjr]

Should I end the day?

That he didn't = scum hoping beyond hope not to get lynched, rather than town who knows that they can shoot. (And depending on the mod, may have access to twilight-talk after the lynch. Not exactly sure on that one, but some mods have it.)

Interesting… I had the opposite reaction. What do you think of my thoughts on this?


Beast, I don't hate all your posts. I just can't see the town motivation.


All caught up, but I am still thinking about everything. Feels like the game changes every day. It's fun, but I need to put the time in...

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, your 1679 was very dumb.

Please, don't call my posts dumb. I have thought this through and think it is worth questioning you on this.

First of all, you just picked a small part out of a long post where I tried to summarize ALL of the possibilities. I simply included that point amongst others. Also, even I admitted later that my ideas there had been wrong.

All of this is irrelevant to my point. My response to the important bit;

Plus, I mentioned "unvote", not "townreading him". I don't think if he had changed his fake-claim to another fake-claim, that would have saved him later.

It doesn't matter if you didn't mention town reading him. It also doesn't matter if the claim change wouldn't have saved him later - you seem to think it would have saved him today. That's enough motivation for copper if he's scum. ALSO, I would like to point out that vigilante is not a testable role in this potentially crazy setup.

And finally, he refused even my assumption that he'd ever fake-claim as a townie.

This is also irrelevant to my point.

Next part of your post;

I know it's a bit like "outguessing the mod" but I think that Copper/BBT fight was a scum-vs-town fight because Copper got force-replaced and BBT got warned. If both of them were scum or town, I don't think they would have gotten a different treatment. (Or it's also possible that Copper was much ruder? I'm a bit insensitive to flame-wars, I've seen much worse things before, ending up with violating ...much serious things.)

I think this type of argument is valid but only when modkills are involved. Modkills affect the game, ejections... not so much. Given that Jackal only replaced copper I am inclined to believe that he was unbiased in his decision. For what it's worth, I agree with his decision and probably would have done the same thing if I were the mod.

[Wickedestjr]

So much theory spec...

Bold please

Lynch Cooper, yes or no.
who should cooper take if vengeful?

I will answer this sometime in the next day or two.

[Wickedestjr]

As for his PR-hints: there's NOTHING there about being a 1-shot. (According to the Setup, claiming a 1-shot is much riskier than a Full Tracker, because the 1-shot can be counter-claimed easily.)

Anen, the PR-hints were ENTIRELY about being a 1-shot. I dislike explaining for others, but I am even more frustrated by the negative attention he's still getting considering he is almost certainly town - so I am going to explain his crumbs. His breadcrumbs were statements from him saying that he had secret reason to believe eyestott was town. Now, look at the investigative section of this setup;

Investigation Roles
I = Tracker
II = Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker
III = Tracker, Tracker
IIII = Tracker, Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker
IIIII = Tracker, Tracker, Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker

Note this: II has a 21% chance and III has a significantly lower 6.2% chance. If vettrock was a tracker, would he say "eyestott is very likely town" when, with a 6% chance, it's actually much more likely eyestott's lying in that case? No, he would not. Now, if vettrock was a 1-shot tracker, would he say "eyestott is very likely town"? YES - if he is a 1-shot tracker, then he knew there had to be a full shot tracker in the game and eyestott was uncc'd - that's a 100% guarantee from his perspective and makes much more sense from mine.

[Wickedestjr]

Yes, there has been a mass claim, but we need your role to claim. Please claim now.

[Wickedestjr]

Hi guys, what's the read on my slot and can someone sum up the game so far?
Meanwhile I'll catch up.

A lot of people think you are scum (not sure anybody town reads you).

Not sure what you want summarized, if you're reading the thread anyway, but here ya go;
-dave wagon formed early day 1, he claimed VT prematurely.
-Attention switched to eyestott who claimed tracker.
-Pressure switched back to dave a few days before deadline, and he was lynched.
-eyestott and dodgy died during the night.
-vettrock was forced to claim, his bread crumbs were noticed.
-BBT claimed.
-copper started getting pressured.
-We decided to mass claim.

Everyone has claimed except you

, I can tell you the claims once you have.
-BBT and copper got in a f-bomby argument. copper was ejected for his role in this conflict.
-Now we are here, still considering your lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

There are 10 of us alive, unless I see a vig claim after this post I will assume 6 are town, 3 are scum and 1 is an SK.

If we mislynch, tomorrow as a worst case we have a Lylo with 3 townies where the decider is the SK vote, this scenario is basically unwinnable for town, so I think we should massclaim today.

[Wickedestjr]

Caught up.

Still think we should have reaction tested Tean's replacement, but it's too late now.

I am a VT.

Thoughts coming

My claim.


Enough proof?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, thank you. He HAD actually claimed. I was just testing you. I was kind of hoping you would claim something else... You are either town or scum that skimmed the recent pages AND/OR copper's iso.

Welcome to the game!

[Wickedestjr]

How experienced?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, 1708 – so, do you think that I wanted to save Copper's Day because I mentioned

one

possibility amongst many others, when I summarized all of the possibilities that came into my mind? Do you think that

one

single thing is more important than all of my posts about scumreading Copper?

It's not so much the fact that I think you're trying to save copper. My issue is that it feels like you're giving copper a pass when, as town, you have no reason to be. I honestly don't know why you would do that as scum, but it feels like bad town play. I don't care if it's just one possibility, it was a weird thing for you to say and I'm not going to just ignore it. I'm reading everything carefully...

I know it's off but why do you think that Copper had to be replaced (without a warning)?

He broke a rule;

You are not forced to like each other, but the fact that you badly want so and so offed does not give you the right to insult him or her. Please keep your hatred of people or groups thereof to yourself unless you want a warning. Three warnings

(or an offensive enough post)

and you will be replaced.

BBT wouldn't have responded in a similar manner if not for copper's initial insults. Plus I think copper's posts were more offensive - several were offensive enough to warrant no-warning-ejection.

Wicked, 1710 – your logic is perfect... IF Vettrock is town. But that doesn't proove that Vettrock is not scum.

I wasn't arguing that he is town: I was just trying to show you how vettrock was bread crumbing the 1-shot tracker specifically - you seemed to not understand that.

Here's my argument for vettrock town: it is very unlikely that vettrock scum would set up this fake claim in the way that he did. It makes perfect sense if he's town, but there's no reason for him to do it as scum - nothing provoking the idea.

[Wickedestjr]

BBT, wouldn't we know if Teapot's main got replaced by Teapot? Not understanding your idea.

...

[Wickedestjr]

2) Not important now, but he had given me a kill choice via PM at time of replacement that I would have used if no replacement found before the slot's lynch.
Finding someone to replace into a 60+ page game for the single purpose of making a venge-kill would have been difficult given how long Tean's replacement took to find.

Wow... I am not sure that I have ever seen this happen before. This is an extremely unfair advantage for us... kinda ironic how copper's rule breaking incidentally led to his own town confirmation...

What do we do now?

Mod?

This information, despite undeserved, is very helpful (we all seemed ready to lynch Teapot and this accidental confirmation could save us a lynch). I need to process this... *back to the drawing board*

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked: I would have to check but I do remember vettrock being very slow to post the first day, did those crumbs come before or after Eyestotts claim?

The crumbs came after. Order: Eyestott claimed, vettrock town read the claim as soon as he saw it, eyestott still has people suspecting him, vettrock crumbs that he knows eyestott is town.

Also it is not to much of an impossibility for them to have done it as scum, for one they would know Eyestott was town and two given the mafia set up they would be aware that PR's were in the game.

Firstly, I am assuming your use of the words 'they' and 'them' refer to vettrock alone rather than his hypothetical scum team as a group. If vettrock is scum, this is something that he decided on his own. From what I have seen, vettrock is a savvy player but he doesn't seem like the super-crafty type. There was no reason for vettrock to set himself up for this fake claim unless he wanted to get crafty. Especially considering the risks;
-There could be a counterclaim for 1-shot tracker.
-vettrock is deciding his 'fake role' for the rest of the game on day 1, limiting his options for later on.
-1-shot tracker is potentially testable.
Sure, it's possible that vettrock is scum, but I would bet a lot of money that he isn't.

[Wickedestjr]

killapenwin is still town. vettrock is still town. Titus is probably town- at least her vig claim makes it very unlikely she is

mafia

, so I am also ignoring her as a lynch possibility for today.

I am still pretty confident in BBT-town. I was not expecting Teapot to flip town, but the town-flip doesn’t change my BBT read. Almost everything about his recent play feels genuine and the ‘breadcrumb’ is also a strong tell imo (for reasons I explained earlier). I am frustrated by the bandwagon on him - it is awful. Let me explain why;

“Why BBT’s Bandwagon is Awful”

VOTE: BBT.

As a starting point.

Mind's not in the game right now, not really. But I want BBT lynched.
-

Many players said

BBT vs. Copper wasn't townVtown.
-BBT being a hider confirms killa as town, a result I'm now doubting a bit.
-Gives us a ton of info aside from that, on the setup and therefore other claims.
-Plus to some extent POE. If copper's not scum, who can be?

She votes BBT ‘as a starting point’, but the vote feels extremely opportunistic and I get the impression that this ‘starting point’ will ride out to the day’s end. It also seems opportunistic because none of these reasons are actually telling. I especially do not like the use of the phrase ‘many players said’ in this post - what did

mastin

think of the BBT vs. copper and why? I don’t think she should be voting based off of what other players are saying.

Teapot gets an honorary win I hope.

VOTE: BBT

Regardless of opinion this is what cooper would have wanted and thus I am not voting anyone else. I am pretending like this is the vengeful shot.

The mod locked the thread so that he could decide what the fairest option is. And he decided that removing Teapot was the fairest option. This vote feels lazy/opportunistic. I am glad that I can have a say in this lynch and I cannot imagine how another townie would not be…

well, first off you're staring at a 95% shot at vettrock being scum and you're ignoring it

This point is wrong for a few reasons.

1. The math is wrong (as the other head acknowledged). The setup is probably T, TT, or TTT (unless Titus, BBT, and vettrock are ALL lying, but I am almost certain that is not the case). Without knowing anything about the setup, these probabilities are;
T- 5.5%
TT- 16.4%
TTT- 27.3%
However, given that we know it is one of these choices, the probabilities are NOW actually;
T- 11.2%
TT- 33.3%
TTT- 55.5%

2. Even if the probability for T was 0.001%, this point is still flawed in that it ignores the possibility of Titus being fake.

no one bit on the Anen vote so you left that read in a ditch

You are scum or ridiculous if you don’t think Aneninen significantly improved his play today. I was already leaning town on Aneninen, but that town lean strengthened when he started putting more effort in. I see what BBT saw.

That leaves: Aneninen, beast, Heartless, and mastin.

I was strongly town reading Aneninen and Heartless before, but the copper flip and Titus vig claim are both making me start to question those reads. Heartless’s lack of recent town tells and current vote for BBT are bothersome and Aneninen is starting to look like scum by POE. If all my other ‘non-mafia’ reads are right, which I strongly believe they are, then the mafia are within;
{Aneninen, beastcharizard, Heartless, mastin2}

If I had to order that right now it would be; beastcharizard, mastin2, Heartless, and Aneninen (scummiest —> least scummy). But beast/Heartless is a very unlikely partnership because;
-beast’s attack and then subsequent town read on Heartless is really weird if they are scum buddies
-The recent beast/Heartless/mastin bandwagon pile up does not seem like a realistic scum team action.

beast and Heartless are probably not partners, so I am going to say the scum team is Beast/Aneninen/Mastin (BAM!) with Heartless as an alternate if any of those three are wrong.

Either way, my reads have been horrible this game, but now I am confident that I am on the right track. We have four lynches left and the mafia are almost certainly in that group of four- so let’s get to lynching.

Vote: beastcharizard

[Wickedestjr]

Vettrock, I'm sorry, but I don't see why you are making any of those assumptions. I think the setup is IIPHKKT OR IIPHKTT with Titus lying.

[Wickedestjr]

IIPHKTT is not possible. If Titus is lying, where did the second kill come from? TT has no serial killer.

My mistake, sorry. I saw that there were two kills night 1. I saw that TT had no serial killer. I didn't put 2 and 2 together.

@Heartless- point #2 in my last big post was an error on my part, you can ignore it (unless you want to attack me for it).

To correct my previous post, I think the setup is IIPHKKT. I will admit that 11% is small, but the strength in my town reads on you and BBT overpowers the doubt of this unlikelihood. I may have been wrong about several of my past scum reads, but I have a very good track record when it comes to clearing people. And I cannot envision a scenario where you or BBT is scum.

Vettrock, what do you think of my post 1687 w.r.t. BBT's breadcrumb? I think that's one of the strongest town tells for him. I also think it's evident that he genuinely doesn't care about appearing townish when he posts - that's a strong town tell too.

[Wickedestjr]

Computer's messed up, not working, wouldn't restart, no idea why maybe I'll get it fixed tomorrow so I can do the crapload of work I have. Not posting tonight.

might have limited access next two days

sorry

[Wickedestjr]

It's a frickin five month old MacBook this is frustrating

[Wickedestjr]

Took my laptop to IT and they basically said that I need to go to an apple store, which I can't do until the weekend. So I'm restricted to phone posting for the next few days when I already have lots of RL work to do.

I still want the beast lynch - I might not get another post in today. Wish I could, but it'll be difficult. Not having a computer will make school AND mafia more difficult for the time being.

I can say that I would be extremely disappointed if BBT is lynched today. I'm not saying that because we're scum buddies, but nice try.

Mod: V/LA until the weekend.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, publicizing intended night actions is awful and I shouldn't have to explain why again.

[Wickedestjr]

For the record, there is a way that mafia can win this without mastin, because we have a bus-driver and mastin doesn't know who it is.

But I'll be generous and agree to share the win with her anyway.

Gg.

[Wickedestjr]

My busy-ness and computer troubles were completely genuine by the way. I tried to be active as I could for town cred sake, but life happened.

mastin what made you change your read on me? And what made you decide not to shoot last night?

[Wickedestjr]

Jackal, thank you for modding this! Fun game.

Antihero, TTH, and Anen- you guys were great and I enjoyed working with you all! It's not often I'm scum, but I'd say this was the first time I've been on a team where everybody pulled their own weight.

mastin, thank you very much for the nomination! I put a lot of effort into most of my games and this is the first time I've ever been part of a nomination. Much appreciated! Also, I never really put you on SK until after the mass claim- good job playing to your town meta.

Titus and Teapot, thanks for replacing in! Really helpful considering the high page counts.

beast, sorry for criticizing literally every other post that you wrote. I know how frustrating that can be. I was just trying to get you lynched.

copper, I really enjoyed playing with you before the last few days of your play. I'm sorry you became angry enough to get yourself ejected and hope to play with you again.

@Everyone - see ya around.

I liked this setup. Potential to be a little swingy, but I would play it again.