Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)
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In post 31, Jackal711 wrote:Almost everyone has posted, but only6people have confirmed in the way instructed.
Jackal711 wrote:You should all have your Role PMs.
The Game thread is here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60351
Please confirm by posting "Ready" in-thread.
As you wish.
posting "Ready" in-thread.-
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Catching-up
Killapenguin, 54 – the post in itself is null. What I don't understand is not voting for Dodgy just because Vettrock did that before. On the other hand, Vettrock's question in 61 is legit too.
Mastin, 62 (and her pre-game posts) – Mastin is being Mastin, lol. (Although I admit that I have very little experience in playing with her.)
Wicked, 68 – there's truth in your logic. But, according to my experience, making discussions and cases out of very little things is a null-tell.
Heartless, 84 – why is Eyestott a good vote? By the way, are you SK again? ^_^
Killapenguin, 88 – this post, along with the other one shows that he's very defensive. Tean noticed the same in 93. However, since he's a relatively new player, I'm not sure whether it is an alignment tell at all.
Wicked, 101 – agreed, setup speculation is useless now.
EyeStott, 102 – (Note to self: re-check this post after EyeStott flips. Sorry, everyone, I can't explain this because of the site rules.)
Dodgy, 108 – why the vote? Is it the thing written in 111?
Mastin, 121 – why is Davesaz scum? Or was it a joke?
Davesaz, 129 instead of advocating your dislike, why don't you ask for her reasons? (Okay, I didn't like 132 at all. I don't know why, it may be an intuition.) Side-note. In another game I found Davesaz so scummy that he was my mislynch plan (I was scum there). So, I'm going to think twice before starting scumreading him.
________
So, I know that I haven't been able to produce too many useful things. I know. But, these things might be useful later.-
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I wrote my doubts about Davesaz in my previous post.
Sure, his readlist in 177 is pigeon poop. Full of nulls and many of the active players aren't there at all. His VT-claim was too early as well. Despite of these I still think he's town. The speed of his wagon and the lack of any resistance strengthen this read.
These players were or are on his wagon: Mastin2, Copper, Wicked, Dodgy, Tean, Eyestott.
There must be at least one scum among those names.
Mastin2 – this wagon is a null-tell, she started it and started pushing it.
Copper – he noticed the same in 200 as I posted here. Not likely.
Wicked – sufficient-looking reasoning in 159. May or may not in itself, but because that wall contained plenty of other reads, less likely.
Dodgy – He pointed out that Mastin–Eyestott–Davesaz interaction thing in 147 and it seems that he's working with that. I'm unsure whether he's right about that but it seems to have come from a town mindset. Plus, he unvoted later. Very unlikely.
Tean – even if Davesaz's readlist was bad, there were more than 4 names there and he didn't mention that it was full of nulls (182). His reasoning for his vote in 189 is weak. He's the most likely scum on that wagon, I think. Also, he had been talking about BBT before. Sure, he's active elsewhere (I've checked it). Plus, I had a game with BBT before and his Day1 was entirely different. But, I also know that I was trying to drop dislikes and scumreads on the inactive players when I was scum in another game. What if he's (they're?) doing the same?
Eyestott – I don't understand why he jumped on the wagon in 211. May be scum, but he's not the most possible one.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TeanSamargo-
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BBT prod dodges in 221 and reappears a couple of hours later to vote for Dodgy. (I also think that he misrepresented Dodgy there.) I think it's something I don't like at all.
Killapenguin's 222 gave me town vibes, even if I didn't agree with everything.
Tean, 231 – so, do you think Eyestott's vote for Davesaz was opporunistic? That's just lol! What would you callyourDavesaz-vote?
Jackal, we all hope that you're okay!
In post 247, Wickedestjr wrote:I can’t speak for mastin, but I know that whenIreaction test, I am hoping to get reactions from as many people as I can - not just the person that my reaction test targets/regards. Even if mastin was focusing on just you, I think her reaction test had potential to provoke anyone. TL;DR - I don’t think you were the only test subject.
Well, shouldn't we let Mastin talk about his own reaction test?
Because, I don't see where talking about reaction tests really goes. Unless we want to be paranoid and think that every single post is a reaction test. Who likes washing the dishes? ^_^
Also, who's scum besides Davesaz according to your reads?
In post 256, copper223 wrote:once again if someone has direct meta?
I met Vettrock in my very first Newbie. His gameplay was even slower than this one.-
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He could be town for now. I tried to meta him but I couldn't find any scum games so, eh.
In post 262, Wickedestjr wrote:In post 252, copper223 wrote:@Wicked
How confident are you about Dave being scum? It's true the early claims happened in Rome.
72% sure
Why 72%?
Copper (and others): to tell the truth, the more I read Davesaz's posts the surer I am that he's town. His posts are very similar as they were in the first game I met him. (With the significant exception that I don't want to mislynch him now ^_^ )
In post 278, eyestott wrote:
I gave reasons for my vote. Why can't I give reasons and vote on my top scumread without it being "sheeping" simply because of how many other people are voting him for different reasons?
Mind my answer, you even quoted it:"May be scum, but he's not the most possible one."
He attempted to read me too and I'm not on his wagon.
In post 289, copper223 wrote:Who happen to be the only active players. I can't read inactive ones.
clearly Aneninen was chosen because of his activity level, the fact your read on him is null because you are waiting for content doesn't raise an eyebrow, right...
???
As for BBT's catchup. I don't know what to think. It seems to be townish but a catchup like that could be faked by a scum too. Also, I haven't got an idea why Dave rushed to "null-read" me. Maybe because I'm explicitly away from his wagon...?-
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Good.
Let me give tell you something important.
Spoiler:
In post 304, copper223 wrote:
Now I can see a world where town_Dave tries to read Aneninen because they previously had a game together and comes up with a blank, so idk, it's not such a strong scumtell anymore and I continue disliking everyone finding an angle to jump on the wagon (BBT being the latest addition).
I think the same.
I also understand that Dave's very cautious. As far as I can remember he was townreading me in our first game together. And I wasverythankful for that read ^_^ (Oh, Dave answered it with one word later.)
Dodgy, 307"My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave"– mm-hmm.
308 –"However his(BBT's)read on Tean is slighty odd."– I'm interested in BBT's answer too. I found it in 335 but I don't understand why those posts are that town. (Especially 198 was scummy according to my reads.)
Eyestott, 315 – Huh?
In general, Dodgy/Eyestott, the conversation around those posts: Dodgy gives me town-vibes. Eyestott gives me scum-vibes.
BBT, 329 – In that post I examinedonlythe Davesaz-wagon. 334 – Why was Beast's post that scummy?
Killapenguin, 345 – please, can't you make the post numbers linkable? Anyway, this post seemed to be townish.
Copper, 352 – I must have missed something but... are you still scumreading Davesaz??? Also, do you think that Eyestott and Dodgy are scums together?
Wicked, 371 – I think it was explained before why Davesaz had wanted to get a read on me. It's unclear what your reads on BBT and Dodgy are. 372 – As for Davesaz, I think I've already told all everything.
Cooper, 390 – That's a good advice, you too, Dodgy and Eyestott. It's very tiring to follow your discussion.
BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)-
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In post 403, copper223 wrote:How sure are you of Dave being town (0-100)? I am confident if Dave is town at least 1 scum was on that wagon, too tempting to pass.
About 90%.
It's not only because I've seen this Davesaz posting style before. But also,
(1) his wagon was emerging very fast
(2) there was no real counterwagon pushed meanwhile (usually the scum try to derail a scum-wagon by building up a counterwagon).
So yes, there was at least one scum on that wagon.-
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Although Tean is my strongest scumread, that's also a viable idea. (See my 219 about him and also the Dodgy/EyeStott conversation.) If Eyestott flips scum, Tean is most probably town, or at least, if both of them were scum, it would have been very dumb from them to jump on the Davesaz wagon with those posts. Also, if Eyestott is scum, that may clear Dodgy too, maybe.
Everyone, discuss these!
In post 411, Wickedestjr wrote:Aneninen wrote:BBT, 393 – So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)
Why did you feel the need to tell BBT you didn't think he was scum when you asked him this question, thus reducing the pressure? Seems a little suspicious.
I've played with BBT before. His start here was different from the one I had seen in our game but his later "pushes" are the town-BBT I had met before. So, I simply don't know what to think. Does it make sense now?
In post 413, beastcharizard wrote:I never said I was being the epitome of town, I just don't see how I am being scummy. I am just being useless. I will get to the point where I am useful though.
Couldn't you be useful now?
In post 416, copper223 wrote:@Wicked
When someone as active as you gets too many town reads it usually means one of two things:
- His pushes are on town and scum want him to be seen as solid town or will at least not cast doubt on him.
- He is scum himself.
In this instance I am starting to think your push on Dave is incorrect and he just is naturally scummy, but I'm still pretty sure you are town.
Interesting thoughts indeed, as for the first part. We should remember them later.-
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Catch-up.
Heartless, why is Mastin scum? 424 seems to be an insufficient answer for that. I agree with you about the Davesaz-wagon, it's pigeon poop with scum(s) on it. 425 – I don't think Dodgy or Mastin are good ideas now, Eyestott may be okay.
As for this in 428:"i have to go pee now"– ...and people are callingmea fluffy lunatic??! ^_^
Wicked, 429"That makes sense but doesn’t answer my question. I’m not asking you why you town read BBT, I’m curious why you felt obligated to attach that statement to your question. "– I'm not townreading BBT, I'm unsure about him. As for that comment, I know that it's going to sound scummy but sometimes I make remarks for myself for later. Even if I use the pronoun "you".
Mastin, 432 – I disagree with some of your reads. Eg. I just don't see a scum-dave here, nor a lean-town Tean. What is more important for me is this: how sure are you about your BBT read?
Killapenguin, 440 – first of all, use this: [p8ost]440[/p8ost] – remove the 8s and it'll link to your post.-
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I've never been able to establish a firm read on BBT, check my posts. Or I misremember something now. It's late here. On the other hand, why would I fake my gameplay just because of you? You know, I've met quite a couple of players before in different games.
(Or, it's also possible that I've been unable to interpret your post at all.)-
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In post 463, eyestott wrote:In post 417, Aneninen wrote:
Although Tean is my strongest scumread, that's also a viable idea. (See my 219 about him and also the Dodgy/EyeStott conversation.) If Eyestott flips scum, Tean is most probably town, or at least, if both of them were scum, it would have been very dumb from them to jump on the Davesaz wagon with those posts. Also, if Eyestott is scum, that may clear Dodgy too, maybe.
Everyone, discuss these!
No where do you say what happens if i'm town.
Yeah, so you're determined to read eyestott!scum no matter what happens. Got it.1
So, pretty much everyone is scumreading me. Dont i like, have the right to an attorney or something? Wicked, as pretty much the only person not thinking i'm super scummy, please help. I promise I'm town.2
(1) Had you read my previous posts you would know the answer for this. In short: My strongest scumread is Tean, whom I'm voting for. If you flip town, I'm pretty sure that he's scum. (Your town-flip wouldn't be an alignment tell on Dodgy, on the other hand.)
(2) That seems to be a kind of whining. If you were townread by most of us, you wouldn't be wagoned. And to tell the truth, you're doing your best so that I may vote for you.
In post 467, dodgy56 wrote:wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse becausescum davecould self hammer?
Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?
^
This.
I posted a similar answer for that part of your 463, but Dodgy already summarized my thoughts here. Eyestott's 477 was an answer I didn't like. Eg."Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority."– scums can turn the tide many times, especially on Day1. (Slips included, unfortunately.)
(Sure, therearesituations when it's beneficial for the scum to self-hammer but this, and in general, Day1s are not amongst those.)
Tean, 471 – nullcontent, it doesn't change my reads. (I've checked your overall activity too but that has been uninformative.)
Eyestott, 480 – your wagon isnotuncontested. The Davesaz wagon is still there.
In post 482, Heartless wrote:you know, actually, i'm looking at the vote counts and i think tean is a scum anchor wagon. it's been static from the beginning and it's momentum is just PLOP sitting there.
What sort of pigeon poop was that?!
I think both Penguin and me provided our reasons for being on that wagon.-
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In post 508, Heartless wrote:
Say what you want about bird excrement, but Antihero has a pretty irritating habit of being right. My gut tells me this is one of those times.
Who else besides Tean are you scumreading? (I don't care if you said them before, restate them.)
-TTH
Antihero's wrong and that's not the first case from him being wrong about me.
It's true that I could move my vote to the Eyestott-wagon but I have a reason for not doing so and I don't want to explain itright now.
As for my reads, don't expect too much, because it's full of null-s (unsorted-s), "if"-s and "but"-s.
KillaPenguin – lean town. His first posts were very "survival-styled", but I liked his later posts.
BBT – if Mastin's town, he's town too. If Mastin's scum, no idea. My own reads are very far from being firm.
Eyestott – possible scum, but not together with TeanSamargo. (It would have been very dumb if two scums had jumped on the Davesaz-wagon almost at the same time.)
Heartless – null and auto-FoS. And you must know, why. (For others: we had a game together not so long ago. Davesaz was there too.)
Davesaz – most probably town and I've already explained it many times.
Copper – lean town, but because of his recent vote for Mastin, alongside still scumreading Davesaz he's more like null.
Vettrock – lean town, but I'd like to see more posts.
Aneninen – probably pigeon
Dodgy – if Eyestott's scum, he must be town. If Eyestott's town, I'll reconsider my current townread on him.
Wickedstjr – lean town, plenty of content, but he was (and is) on the Davesaz-wagon, which I think is a scum-driven wagon
Beastcharizared – null and having no idea at all
TeanSamargo – probably scum, not only the Davesaz-wagon, but also his early posts and I don't like that he's lurking. Not together with Eyestott
Mastin – null, unable to read her.
That's all I have now.-
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BBT.
I'm trying to explain it again then.
You must remember that I met you long ago in another game, modded by Kagami. Both of us were town. Your very early posts had been very different from the posts you made here. That was pretty much FoS. Your later posts here – attacking someone vehemently – were, on the other hand, quite similar to those posts in our past game in which you had been attacking me vehemently because of very small things.
That'swhy I'm not sure what to think about you. Mastin started protecting you, and because of not having useful reads on you I decided to believe in her read about you – for now. (If Mastin flips scum later, I'll need to reconsider my reads on you.) I hope that I'll be able to establish a firm read on you later.
Is it clear now?-
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Catching-up.
Copper, 527 – a flawless observation. Indeed, I don't like playing scum. Stress might have something to do with it, yes, but basicly, it's about something else. You can check the scum QT of 573, I posted there why I'm playing (and loving) Mafia. Being a scum is much less useful for me. (If you're interested in, I can explain it post-game – or in the dead topic.)
Tean, 530 – he's not communicating with me at all. Am I the only one who finds this strange?!! Also, I won't comment his lines about KillaPenguin for certain reasons. And wow, he asks Penguin about Mastin! I think he's just trying to build up a wagon against her. Or setting up a later mislynch?
EyeStott, 542 – okay, I'm buying your claim for now. We'd lose more if we lynched a PR than we could lose if that had been a fake-claim. In the latter case he wouldn't get too far in the game anyway. Maybe I should ISO Dodgy later. Especially because his posts right after the claim. (Somehow I doubt that he kept on arguing with EyeStott and he realized only in 558 the claim.)
Copper, 553 – for your information: I was planning to mislynch Davesaz in that game but he claimed a town-PR. (And that claim was detrimental to my already-bad state.) As for KillerPenguin: I think Tean is scum so, if Penguin is scum too, their early fight has been a faking. What do you think? Is it possible?
Cooper, 568 – that is wrong!!!! In this setup there may be another Tracker too! If there is another tracker, claiming it is VERY bad for the town! It's simple math. Check the setup.
BBT, 583 and later posts – Do you remember NeuroScience Mafia? You were scumreading me for a long time. I gave answers for all of your questions. I even admitted that I had made a mistake before. You kept tunnelling me, regardless of my answers. In the end I voted for you because if someone plays the "Regardless of Card" (do you remember that concept?), that's auto-FoS for me and I started to think that you were a scum performing a deathtunnel.
So, let's make it short now: You are wrong. I'm town. Even if you don't believe it. I could answer all of your questions, point out all the errors in your posts but that wouldn't change your reads at all. And I don't have enough IRL time for this.-
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Okay, even if I know that you won't accept it, I'll give you an answer for something, BBT.
You wrote this:"Anen, again, this is an opportunistic time to be jumping on the eye wagon. Can you give your reasoning for eye!scum? 'Eyestott may be okay' does not quite qualify you to join the wagon."
First of all, I've already gave my reasons for my scumreads. I strongly think that Davesaz is town, because of his gameplay and because of the quick emergence of his wagon, without any counterwagons. So, I examined the players on that wagon, because there must be at least one scum there. My strongest scumread, as I wrote before, was and is Tean. But, I thought that EyeStott is possibly scum too – but not together with Tean.
I intentionally stayed away from that wagon becauseI wanted to see who puts him at L–1. Putting players at L–1 is a best way for the scums to force townies to claim. Unfortunately, EyeStott claimed at L–2 so my plan didn't work. After his vote Penguin said that it was an L–1 but it wasn't. I know it's very FoS that I don't essentially scumread Penguin for that, but (1) I too think it's unlikely that both Tean and Penguin are scum and in other cases I don't want to push Penguin right now. Hint: there's a reason for it and you noticed that reason too in one of your posts. However, I interpreted Penguin in a different way.-
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As for my readlist. What the hell do you expect on Day1? Detailed and firm reads on everyone? All I could do was to collect the pro-s and the con-s for the players. Most of the game has been (1) nullposts (2) pushing the Davesaz-wagon and (3) pushing the Eyestott wagon. Apart from those, very few things have happened so far.
However, you're right about one thing. I should examine the Eyestott wagon thouroughly whether I can find something useful there too. (Providing that Eyestott's claim is real.)-
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Wicked, 630 – (sigh) Yes, I wanted to be lazy about BBT. Need I explain it again? His early-posts were very different from the BBT I saw, therefore I thought he's scum. His later posts were similar to his gameplay I met before, they seemed to have come from a townie. So, I was at a loss.
Meanwhile, Mastin started to defend him. Even if I don't know whether Mastin town is (see my readlist), I decided to believe her about Mastin for now. Why? If Mastin's town, she may be right about BBT. If she's scum, there may be no point for her hard-protecting her scumbuddy, so in this case, BBT must be town.
Later, as you can see, BBT jumped on me – andthat'sthe BBT I know well. I remember having a long fight with him in a game where both of us were town. I was spending a lot of time with that game because of that, only to achieve – nothing. So I wanted to make the things short (see my 601). As I suspected, he went along. Because of having some time before going to bed, I re-checked his posts to realize that there were not too many things about me. So I answered his two major questions (619, 622). I wish he stopped and realized that he were/is after the wrong player again, but I don't think it would happen.
Post-edit. Having browsed the game for a short while I realized that BBT was doing the same push against Mastin and Eyestott, for example. Maybe I'm simply over-reacting him now.
________
So, let's examine that Eyestott-wagon.
Dodgy – long fight with him, the starter of the wagon. As I've said before I'll examine him later, there are quite a few things about his recent posts which I don't like.
BBT – those posts linked by him were indeed weird. I'm not sure whether scummy enough for a vote. But, BBT's play and the fact that he still hasn't dropped the Eyestott-case fully, suggests me that he's not likely scum on that wagon.
Copper – Basicly that's a naked vote, referring to my previous "there was scum on the Davesaz-wagon". (As far as I can understand.) He picked Eyestott but he had never posted a lot about him. I don't like this at all. However, he jumped off later, before the claim.
Davesaz – maybe it's only a player-in-a-survival-mode vote but it doesn't change my reads on Davesaz.
Mastin – changing from Davesaz, because of BBT's push (? – unsure). Either she's seriously misreading everything or she's a scum who wants to force as many players to claim as she can.
Penguin – I posted about this topic before.
So, either Eyestott's claim is fake, in this case this analysis is pigeon poop because it doesn't tell us anything about other scums.
If the claim is real, yet again, there must be at least one scum amongst those players.
Mastin, Copper and Dodgy were on both the Davesaz and the Eyestott wagon. I'm going to examine these three players next (as I have time for it), because I don't think BBT, Davesaz or Penguin are scum.-
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I've just looked into the thread but I haven't read it yet.
BBT, isn't it possible that I haven't made the conclusions of the Eyestott-wagon nor answered your post because I f-cking havent been here?!
By the way, I'll be a bit antisocial for a while, prepare for that. I wouldn't say that life s-cks. I only say that after I die I'll express my issues because it has been simply the most unbalanced, unfair and un-playable thing I've ever seen and this has been the most useless, pointless and annoying life I've ever lived with zero to no morals at all.
Maybe tomorrow, maybe then I'll answer everything. Or not.-
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BBT:
Sorry, not today. And it's not because of you. Nor because of the game. I'm simply sick of everything. And I won't tell because I don't want to bring everyone down. Not a big thing in itself but you know, when time passes, you're almost 40 and you notice that your Effort/Success ratio is in the bottom 1% of the human population for no f-cking reason, then you don't really care about games like this.
Maybe tomorrow. Or next day. If nothing changes inside, I'll replace out because I don't want to spoil the game for you all out there.
Copper: basicly the same goes for you too.-
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Sorry for being away since my 669.
(1) Because of that, I must have missed a couple of things here, and I think there were some questions I left unanswered. If they're still relevant, ask them again, please!
(2) How much time did we have 'till Deadline before the lynch Yesterday?
(3) I don't think that both of the kills have been strange. Eyestott has been no surprise, after all he claimed a PR. Dodgy? That's an interesting question. Did he claim or crumb anything?
(4) Also, this is important: if you're a Vig and we fail to lynch a scum Today,do not killTonight unless you're 100% sure that you kill a scum!-
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Catching-up.
First of all, Copper, I've just found that you claimed Vengeful yesterday. In this case, you shall not be lynched Today even if someone scumreads you.
Think about this: 10 players are alive. If we lynch Copper and heisVengeful, he uses his ability and that can hit a townie. At Night2, there may be two other kills. If both of them hits a different townie, on Day3 there will be 6 players. The setup contains PIKxxxx, so there will be at least 3 Mafias; lynching them will be impossible. Insta-Mafia win. We should avoid this situation at all costs!
Heartless, 1085 – neither the post, nor the vote makes sense.
Mastin, 1090 – why are you sure that Heartless is town? Personal experience?
BBT, 1092 – that part about Vettrock is interesting."If eyestott is no surprise for the kill, may I ask why you think Copper is still alive? I mean, his claim is the worst one for scum to have to deal with during the Days. Copper is prime target for kill if he's town, no?"– was that for me? Alongside with the other questions?
As for Copper, see the part above!
KillaPenguin, 1093 – I don't agree certain things here (eg. I don't think Copper is a sure-lynch Tomorrow if he's still here and I don't see why we should all vote for Beast) but this is another town-post from him.
And I really want to see a Vettrock post!-
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Okay,
BBT, the answers, although some of them might be irrelevant now:
Spoiler:
Catching-up with everything else.
Spoiler:
Summary. We really shouldn't perform a mislynch Today. So, instead of a town/scum list I examine the "lynchability". (The names in each groups are from the "worst-lynch" to the "best-lynch" order.)
These players would be terrible lynches in my opinion: KillaPenguin, BBT, Copper. The first two players are town according to my reads, and lynching Copper would be too risky.
These are the may-or-may-not cathegory: Wicked, Beast, Heartless, Tean. Wicked gives me town-vibes, but sometimes I can't focus on his long posts, and it's not a good sign. (I remember doing that as scum – although, I do the same as town...) Beast is a lurksack, I wouldn't lynch him Today but the more he lurks, the more scummy he is. Heartless is eh, I explained it above that he can't be the SK but that's all I'm sure about. I was scumreading Tean, but right now he should start posting again or should be replaced. In the latter case we must see his replacement's concent later.
These seem to be the best ideas: Mastin, Vettrock – check the spoiler They may be scum together too.
But, before I vote I want to ISO both of them. (But that's happening later and I know that tomorrow I'll have a busy day.) If it turns out that I'm misreading these two, the list above should be examined thoroughly.-
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A couple of answers, and I don't even say that this'll be an answer for everything – as I said, I'll ISO you sooner or later. (Most probably later, it's late here and I'll be away tomorrow.)
As for your Antihero-read. I would say that I might believe you, for the same reason I believed your BBT read... (If you're town, you may be right, if you're scum such reads for your partners wouldn't make sense) But, if I said that (1) BBT would jump on me again instantly (okay, that was partly a joke), and (2) see below, about BBT!
The next two parts give me a strange feeling... I also use similar (and same) phrases (eg. "I know that it's only my word that...") when I'm town. But, I mimed that in C9++ (Open 573), soooo... either you have a similar base-mindset or what'sitcalled or you're just fooling me. (By the way, you needn't answer this if you don't want to, but, how old are you?)
As for the "helpful hint..." what'll happen if we lynch Vettrock and he flips scum? And what'll happen if he flips town?
Your readlist. I'd be really, really surprised if Penguin were scum. But, the position of BBT disturbs me. You were literally raging on Day1 that he's town. Now he's the 4th scummiest player. What has changed?-
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Mastin, 1151 – as for your age, that answered my question. I had a tiny idea about your posting style, but you're most probably not in the age range for my idea.
Also, it's a coincidence but I think I had read your article about bussing before we met ingame. There are many good thoughts in it, although it doesn't proove in itself that you would never bus as scum...
This:"Well, then, I suck, and would offer no resistance to being lynched."made me think... I'm checking your ISO after this post.
In post 1152, mastin2 wrote:Like, Heartless is town, period.1
Copper I've felt is town for multiple reasons, among them being his push on Heartless (vice-versa, too) and Heartless still being alive, general townposting, and the claim which I found to be town.2
You, Anen, is like I said nearly impossible to explain, but I think you've got a fairly good grasp on why anyway.3
Wicked's still QUITE town-looking to me.4
All of those, rather solid.
Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I stillthinkhe is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.5
Then you get into the bottom four. BBT's been town, but isn't as town as the others are.6 killa's been null to me most of the game, and while I did lean slightly town, is weaker than BBT.7 Tean's been null basically the entire game (may or may not have fallen onto the scum side at points; I don't remember if I did or not, but if so, couldn't have been by much)8, and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.9
Thus, vettock lynch.
(1) I'm way not sure about them, but they're not a priority right now.
(2) I don't care about Copper right now because we'd lose too much if we lynched him Today, assuming his claim is real.
(3) Lol, I see your point ^_^
(4) I have a similar read on him.
(5) ...well, see below in this post!
(6) Either I'm an idiot or Penguin is town.
(7) The more I read BBT the surer I am that he's town. I know it was only one game we met in, but this BBT is the same one I know.
(8) Tean is doing "such a nothing" that sometimes I almost forget how scummy his early-Day1 was. But... only "almost"!
(9) So... he's "not a strong scumread" now but you wrote "I GUARANTEE you vettock is scum." in 1148 ...what has changed? (Side-note: it's also strange that Vettrock didn't point this out eg. in 1155.)
Vettrock, 1155 –"You were pretty confident on dave too, except when you weren't online to unvote...– ick? Was he trying to warn Mastin?!?if you try that two days in a row, people might get suspicous."
Also, you left out Penguin from your wagon-list. Why?
Wicked, 1158 – your answer (954) is noted, I must have missed it. However, we should remember that post if Vettrock flips scum.
BBT, 1161 – And YES, he found the same thing! For me, BBT is pretty much obv-town from now.
BBT, next post wrote:When I was talking about this post Anen, I was making reference to the way you're trying to not be held accountable for things you say. For example, you say you've never been able to get a read on me, then you say, or maybe I'm misremembering which I interpret as 'I might be wrong on that, and if I am, well you can't scum-read me for it because I already said I could be wrong.'
I still don't know what should I answer. Your interpretationisa possible interpretation. However, I don't think it would be useful if I told that I'm sure about something if I'm not.
(Side-note. Do you remember our game? You were attacking me partly because I wrote that "I'm sure" about someone's alignment...)
BBT, same post wrote:Is Copper scummy for being on the wagon or not? Your 'analysis' of him is pretty fluffy. You're scum-reading Mastin...someone whose read you trusted enough to believe I was town is now scum...Nah, this doesn't make sense. Explain.
I've already written that I don't care about CopperToday, because lynching him would be bad.
By the way, I didn't scumread Mastin there, check it out, it was an "either... or..." sentence. However, I'll ISO Mastin soon. Partly because of the wagons, partly for other reasons.
In post 1164, beastcharizard wrote:Heartless is scum. They remind me of a game I read. I will have to find a link to it later because the name escapes me. It was an open game though and they were the SK I believe. They def were not town.
Uhhh, NO.
Do I understand it right? They were SK in Open 573 -> they're similar here -> they're scum, because of the similarity SK here.
I'm 95% sure that they're NOT SK. I was in that game, I was scum and I knew from Day2 that they were SK. While I was reading their posts I knew their alignment. (Even if I thought they were WIFOMizing by no Kills, f-ck off, we targetted the same player twice!) Their posts here are VERY far from that game. (They may be Mafia, of course.)
Why am I telling this?
Let's see Beast. A couple of null-looking things, eg. 192, 273, 290, 294. In 532"I could get behind an eyesott lynch.", in 844" Also, this type of game is solely my town style of game as it makes me a huge target for a lynch or Vig kill."is pigeon poop. Sheeping vote for Davesaz in 932. The whole 948 is pigeon poop (explaining that "early-game lurking is a death sentence" from him???) 1143 is WTF.
Adding all these things together, I've got a feeling that Beast is SK. (Post-edit: KillaPenguin, as an answer for your latest post, read this too. What are you thinking about Beast now?)-
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Mastin-mix.
(Because of the sheer amount of content I only mention the "highlights" of her posts.)
Spoiler:
Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale. I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)
But, before sorting her, I must ask something.
Mastin! How sure are you about your Vettrock read? Plus, if you had to lynch anyone but Vettrock Today, whom would you choose and why?-
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Thispostwall is about Mastin.
(1) She's provided plenty of content about how we should read him, has tried to be very convincing and charming to explain that she's town. –This may be true but could be easily faked by scum-Mastin too.
(2) Her reads are changing very fast, and they're moving on a very wide scale. They're mostly based upon previous experience, intuition and in very rare cases on specific posts. I can believe that it's a possible gamestyle from her. But, a gamestyle like this is much more useful for a scum than for a townie.
Why do I say that? A gamestyle like this provides a perfect excuse for her if she pushes a mislynch wagon or ends up jumping on one.
This happened in the case of Davesaz too. I can believe that she was away IRL before the end of Day1, but she's experienced enough to use a thing like that for her own advantage.
On the other hand, if my setup speculation (see below!) is not only a worst-case setup but also the correct one and if she really adjusts her gameplay to the particular game she's in,this behaviour is seriously anti-town.
(3) She pushed the Davesaz-wagon really hard and as far as I can see, she provided only general things (like "davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book" and "reaction testing) about him, instead of a well-built case.This is a fact.
(4) She was on the Eyestott wagon too, therefore she was on both of the Day1 major wagons. Both Eyestott and Davesaz flipped town.This is a fact.
(Side-note. A little bit of caveat is this one: it would have been better for the scums if a PR had been lynched on Day1. So, jumping back on the Davesaz-wagon instead of pushing the Eyestott wagon is a mild towntell. Although, it's possible that the scums were going for a sure mislynch instead of a No Lynch.)
(1) is not a real tell in itself. (2) is speculative, I must admit, but it's scummy. However, (3) and (4) are facts.
Why have I waited so long with my read? After all, what I'm saying is not based upon new information.
It was because of the Vettrock push. I never scumread Davesaz. Eyestott, on the other hand looked scummy before his claim (I think I posted somewhere that I'd vote for him), but Mastin's attitude towards Vettrock is a bit different. She started scumreading him on Day1 and it seems to be a non-changing read from her. Also, I too think Vettrock is scummy.
So,I thought there was a chance that Mastin was town-PR; Gunsmith, RoleCop or another Tracker (1-shot included). That'swhy I asked in 1170 these: "Mastin! How sure are you about your Vettrock read? Plus, if you had to lynch anyone but Vettrock Today, whom would you choose and why?"
Her answers can't have come from an investigative PR. I mean, if she knew that Vettrock is scum, he wouldn't have mentioned other posssible names. (She wouldn't have given alternatives, especially for a player (me) who was not voting at that time.) Mentioning Tean could be a bit appeasing (I've never townread Tean), and calling BBT a possible scum is very strange. Not only because she was hard-townreading BBT before, but also because of the fact that I can see no change in BBT's gameplay and her read showed a very big change!
Therefore, Mastin must be scum.
VOTE: Mastin2
Another little caveat.
Itispossible that Mastin2 is Gunsmith, examined Vettrock and got a positive investigation. That would fit her "90% sure" read, because in this case Vettrock can be Vigilante...
However, I strongly think that we have an SK and not a Vig. Because, in my opinion the Vig should have claimed his/her shot by now. I know that outing a PR would be bad for the town. But, it would help us reading the game – and if we knew that there's probably no SK, we would know that we're in a better situation then eg. I think. So, the gain would be bigger than the loss. (2 PRs are known, if Copper's claim is real, 3. So, most probably there are 3 mafias and an SK. That's what I mean by "worst-case setup". Therefore, we should avoid a mislynch at all costs and that'swhy I've wanted to get the possible surest read I could get.)
Also, some additional things.
I doubt that Mastin would bus in this phase of the game. (I won't explain this because it would help the scums more than the town.)
So, if Mastin is scum, Vettrock can't be scum with her. In this case, if they're SK and Mafia, I'm misreading Beast (because he can't be SK then).
Also, if Mastin is Mafia (and not SK), she does a damm good job by confusing the later partner-analysis. She super-townread (and townreads) plenty of players: Wicked, BBT, Heartless, me (!)... so, if Mastin flips Mafia, I would say that her most possible partner is Heartless, because that tonwread is based upon not only meta but also upon a kind of "we know each other too well" things. (And yes, I know that partner speculation s-cks until we have a scumflip.)-
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Copper, 1181–1189 area – Wait, what?! Two PRs are flipped. You claimed Vengeful. That's three PRs.If there were two Mafias, there could be only two PRs!!!(Check out the Wiki!) That means... if the setup is IPTTTTT, your claim is fake!
Two PRs are out, massclaiming would only help the scum, they would be able to find the remaining PRs with no effort at all. So, these posts are very scummy. Also, it was you who tried to convince us after EyeStott had claimed that the town should counterclaim him if there's another Tracker.
Right now I think you're scum who's rolefishing, because you know that we wouldn't dare to lynch you Today. In addition, regardless of your fake-claim, I still think there must be 3 Mafia – and you hope that we'll mislynch someone Today and you can be at LyLo Tomorrow. (Post-edit. Copper's 1208 made no sense at all for me.)
Everyone: do not claim!!!
Beast, 1192 – that post has nothing to do with your scumread on Heartless, yet you voted for them.
Please, summarize your case against Heartless, including whether they're Mafia or SK according to you. Also, in 932 you were sheeping them. Why? Who else do you think is scum?
1197 – why do you want to appease Penguin? Also, what did you mean by this:"killa, why are you answering for Anti?"
Vettrock, 1198 and 1199 – well, it's better to quote this.
In post 1198, vettrock wrote:...
I am leaning towards copper, mastin2 and BBT as the scum. Two of them also happen to be voting me, but I at least like to think it is not solely a OMGUS vote on my part. Mastin seems the most likely to me.
vote: Mastin2
In post 1199, vettrock wrote:
Also, I'm leaning toward BC still as the serial killer, but I'm less certain of that.7
Whut?!
His scumreads are Copper, Mastin and BBT, the latter two players are voting for him.
Does he vote for Copper, whose claim may be fake? NO, he assumes that it's real. Does he vote for BBT, who has not a single vote and who (as far as I know) is townread by most of us? NO. Does he vote for Mastin, after I had provided my case against her, alongside with my vote? Yes, of course! And wow, who else is on that wagon? Copper. (His 1207,"I would consider voting BBT, copper or beast, but as they have no existing wagon, I selected you."was just as scummy as these posts.)
And who's his SK-read? Our good old SK-suspect, Beast.
Also, he mentions (1198) that Copper's claim may be fake – but he still goes on with the assumption that the claim is real (and tries to explain that there must be an SK).
Vettrock must be scum.
Wicked, 1202 – nice summary. But, you should read the recent posts too! After doing so
(1) Do you STILL think that Vettrock is town?
(2) What do you think about Coppers posts I mentioned in this post?
(3) Also, read my case about Mastin too.
(4) As for your next post: why do you think a massclaim would be useful?
Mastin, 1204 –"Anen's case is shit, though."– After I had posted my case, what kind of pigeon poop was that?! If you're town, explain why my case is shyt! As for your 1206: it's not your wagon which is scummy. Your gameplay, including things I've just mentioned here, is.
Mastin, 1205 – I hate to agree with my another scumread but I must: Vettrock must be scum.
________
Summary.
The recent posts from Vettrock and Copper tells me that both of them are Mafia. (Also: both of them were on the Davesaz-wagon, both of them are voting for Mastin, and they've never voted for each other.)
In this case, it's very unlikely that Mastin's a Mafia, so, she must be the SK.
But.
If so, Beast can't be the SK, although he may be scum with Copper/Vettrock.
Tean could be scum with anyone. I can see no useful interactions with the players mentioned here (apart from not liking a Beast lynch).
As for the others. Penguin, BBT and maybe Wicked are town. (The latter one is only maybe, because he thinks that a massclaim would be useful.)
No idea about Heartless. They can't be SK, but if they're Mafia, Copper can't be Mafia (on Day1 Heartless pushed Copper, as far as I can remember).
The problem is that I have too many scumreads (5) and too few townreads (3). So, I'm misreading at least one player. Most probably Tean or Beast. (If Copper's claim is fake, it's possible (although not likely) that there are only two Mafias – if that's true, maybe both of them???) However, what if there are mistakes in my other scumreads too...?
Therefore, I think I must vote for my surest scumread now, regardless of my speculation above.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vettrock
Mastin: I still think you're scum and I'm waiting for an answer from you about my case. I've moved my vote only because I think it's less possible that I'm misreading Vettrock than I'm misreading you. But, unless my reads change a lot, I'm willing to lynch you just as much as Vettrock. (Lynching Copper would be too risky now, even if I think that the claim was fake.)
Post-edit.
Vettrock, 1210"I think the most likely scenario is that there are 3 scum, and a serial killer.It is possible copper just doesn't know how to add.Three T's is the most likely of these as I think the fewer T's the more unlikely the scenario."
Need. I. Say. More?-
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You noticed that his speculation made no sense if his claim was real. Yet your conclusion was that he couldn't add the T's and you voted for Mastin.
By the way, you posted a lot about Copper's setup speculation and you hadn't mention that we shouldn't claim before I posted the same.
If youreallyhad been against a massclaim you could have posted it zillions of times. Instead of doing so, you were explaining that we must have an SK – thanks, but I too explained it a couple of times before.-
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[OFF]
I must share this with everyone now. (And whenever you call me a freak next time, remember that someone actually MADE this video.)
Intergalactic Proton Powered Electrical Tentacled Advertising Droids
[/ON]
Posting real content soon.-
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So, answers. (Sorry, I'm still laughing on my video I posted.)
Vettrock, 1214 – So, you're saying that you've been scumreading Copper. Either I'm unable to read (in this case I'll ask an Advertising Droid to help me ^_^), or your read, before this post, was a fence-sitting at best.
"So everyone else who hasn't said they are against the massclaim, if they post now they are scum because they could have said it before as well?"– I think it was BBT, Wicked and you, who reacted to that post. I'm townreading BBT for several other reasons. Wicked told that he would agree with a massclaim and that weakened my townread on him. In your case, it's not the only reason for my scumread.
Copper, 1215 –"I did not read the part about how the mod rolls only 7 letters and fills out the rest, if you look at my post you can see what I'm doing by adding the PR's."– Huh? If the mod rolled a letter for every townie there would be an even higher chance for town-PRs. What you're saying here makes zero sense.
"TTT– I I ?IIPK which means 3 scum and an SK, so if we don't lynch correctly this game is over. I think this is where we are at."I I ???What the f-ck is that second I? The setup could contain any other PRs and you're talking aboutI I? – That doesn't make sense either.
Mastin, 1219 and nearby.
You're right, it's partly about your playstyle.But, you said that I might think it's anti-town. You also said that you have several playstyles. Need I explain how bad the situation is? You must know too that if we mislynch Today, there may be a LyLo Tomorrow. Why on Gods' Green Earth don't you choose a less anti-town playstyle?
Also, you were on both of the Davesaz and the Eyestott wagon, you were the one who pushed the Davesaz-wagon hardest. These are facts.
"with Tean as an outside possibility who may or may not be scum, but whose lynch would provide further POE on the scum."– I don't like this. We don't have time for PoE lynches.
You said that we're "fairly synergetic players". And if I dropped my scumread on you we could work together. You might say the truth, but I strongly think that you want to fool me. Why are you telling this to me? Why not to your other townreads? To Heartless, Wicked, or maybe Beast? I wish I didn't think that you would like me to drop my scumread on you. I wish I didn't think that I could be important for you because of my scumread on Vettrock. These are the things in which I'm different from your other townreads.
BBT, 1224 –"The majority of Copper's play strikes me as scummy but scum seem way too overpowered if we can essentially lose the game by lynching– Uhh, didn't you mean town-Copper? Vengeful is a town PR in this setup.Scum!Copper, he shoots townie and scum and SK kill to end game for town."
BBT, 1226 –"Vengeful doesn't seem a great fake-claim for scum to make."– I don't think so. Noone dares to vote Copper now because of that claim. By the way, I saw Copper fake-claiming in another game (although they had Nightkilled me before). The scums won, we hardly had any chance.
Heartless, 1229 – explain why Vettrock is town, will you? As for Beast, you may or may not be true.But, I absolutely dislike that you're STILL voting for Penguin, while you're talking ONLY about Beast – when there are six players on the "remaining" list.Irrelevant, they unvoted Penguin later.
Copper, 1231 – Again, WHAT IS that I I ? And again, massclaiming would be bad!
Also, your "case" against BBT is pigeon poop. You were mis-speculating the setup a lot before and you're scumreading BBT because of a similar, but less singificant thing.-
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Okay. I really,reallydislike this.
Not only because I don't remember Vettrock hinting a thing like that.
Also, because in this case you shouldn't have posted about it at all. This has been the third thing which suggests that you're trying to out the Town-PRs.
As for BBT, do you mean this?
"The majority of Copper's play strikes me as scummy but scum seem way too overpowered if we can essentially lose the game by lynching Scum!Copper, he shoots townie and scum and SK kill to end game for town."
How does it suggest that he knows you could only be Vengeful? I don't get it at all.-
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I've been thinking.
Let's see these posts from Copper. (They have been edited by me, for the original context check out the links.)
1181"There are 10 of us alive, unless I see a vig claim after this post I will assume 6 are town, 3 are scum and 1 is an SK.
If we mislynch, tomorrow as a worst case we have a Lylo with 3 townies where the decider is the SK vote, this scenario is basically unwinnable for town, so I think we should massclaim today"
Corrected in 1182"No that's a mistake, 2 scum and 1 SK, I still think we should consider mass claiming."– he assumes without any further that there are two scums and he still suggests mass-claiming.
A couple of us has already posted that a Setup with 2 mafias is only possible if Copper's claim is fake. I would add: even if he had misread the Setup, a massclaim is a very anti-town idea. Assuming few town-PRs (alongside with 2 mafias) it wouldn't have a big "conf-town effect", but it would out the remaining PRs – making them prone targets to the scums.
1183"I also think the Dodgy kill may be related to the scum bus driver."– so, he hasn't read the Setup but he assumes that there is a Bus Driver. That role exists only in 0–2 Ts and 5–7 Ts setup. So, he actually DID read the wiki. He confirms it in 1208.
1187"I don't think a unified faction kills both eyestott and dodgy, and if were in a PR rich environment it's more likely a vigilante would have claimed by now."– THIS post will be important later.
1215"I did not read the part about how the mod rolls only 7 letters and fills out the rest, if you look at my post you can see what I'm doing by adding the PR's."– it's very unlikely that he haven't read the Wiki thoroughly (after all, he knows about the possible PRs, scum-PRs included), especially if he's a PR. But even if this has happened, there's something else here:
"This helps a lot in narrowing it down thought, my guess is we are either:
- TTTTIPK which means 3 scum and no SK
or
- TTTIIPK which means 3 scum and an SK, so if we don't lynch correctly this game is over. I think this is where we are at.
Hethinksit's TTTIIPK. But, he also mentions another possibility above.
(Also, the game is NOT essentially over if we mislynch Today.)
1239"F-ck it, I think it's pretty clear Vettrock is hinting at being 1-shot tracker and that's why he was sure of Eyestott yesterday. That is why I think we are in the PKIITTT setup."– SO! If he thought that Vettrock was hinting 1-Shot Tracker, WHY did he speculate about 5–7 Ts before, and even if he misread the Setup on the Wiki,WHY was he doubting a PR-right environment before?!If his claim were real and if he had spotted the hints from Vettrock (assuming in this post that Vettrock's claim is real),he should have known that there are at least 4 PRs in the game!If so, he shouldn't have advocated a mass-claim at all! Unless... so as to out Vettrock for sure or check whether we're in a PR-richer setup!
Summary.
Copper is lying.
EVERYONE! If you think that my logic is wrong about him, or if you think that I'm misreading the events, post about it as soon as you can!
If I'm right, we must Lynch Copper. However, if I'm wrong and his claim is real, it's possible that I'll lose the game for us.
________
I'll post about everything else later (eg. yes, I know that I still have to revise all of my previous scumreads), but I wanted to make this post before I'd be off to work.
Also,
Vettrock, whom did you Track? Why? What was the result? I don't think telling us these pieces of information would hurt the town.-
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Back.
I'm responding to Copper now.
First of all, don't take it as a personal offence, but I simply don't believe you. I think your claim is fake, therefore you're scum.
– Massclaiming would help the scums more than the town. The scums would know all the PRs and they could choose the most dangerous PR to Nightkill, turn by turn. This would be especially bad in this particular game because (1) most probably there's an SK and (2) two PRs are already dead. The only advantage for the town would be that we'd be able to confirm some players. (However, see something else about this topic below!) BUT, this would come with two serious disadvantages: (1) some scums could perform a safe-looking fake-claim (and it would be hard to decide which claims are real and which are fake) and (2) if the scums are charismatic enough, they would be able to convince the town to lynch therealPR.
– I'm not misrepresenting you at all. It's possible that I'm misinterpreting you and my scumread on you is wrong. So, instead of voting for you I asked everyone to discuss my reads. I've already expained: if your claim is real and I'm wrong, lynching you can be equal with performingtwomislynchs.
– You wrote that I had been responsible for outing Vettrock. Isn't that a misrepresenting from you? It's pretty obvious that I hadn't noticed Vettrock's hints before he claimed. You could have posted something like "I think I saw a PR-hint from someone" instead of outing Vettrock.
(As for Vettrock, I still need to examine whether his claim is real or not. My intuition says itis, but I want to be surer.)
– Also, there's something else. If your claim is real and you assume that the setup contains 4 PRs (it's five times more probable than the 6PRs version and because having an SK in the setup is very likely), your gameplay as a townie is very bad. Let me explain: if you're really a Vengeful and if you've spotted Vettrock's hints (and if his claim is real too), it's 80% that there are NO other PRs at all. What does that mean? Most probably NO townie would claim anything. (About all these claims I'll write something else in my next post, because there's something else that suggests me that Copper is faking.)
________
Summary – and I will keep my promise:
I repeat: we should discuss as soon as we can whether my read on Copper is correct or not. If we decide that I must be right,thenwe should start voting him and lynch him. DO NOT park your votes there before we've agreed about him! If I'm wrong, some scums could jump on his wagon and quicklynch him in the middle of the conversation!!!
However, if the majority thinks I'm wrong, I'll drop my case and I won't bring up the topic any more.
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Apart from Copper's 1253 I haven't read the thread thoroughly since my last post. I'll write about everything else later.-
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Plenty of other things.
(1) Vettrock. In the Newbie I met him long ago, he was a Tracker. He crumbed his PR on Day1 and he didn't post a crumb like that here. (I mean, A crumb, Not Essentially that easy to spot, Nor with such an Inconsistent text = ANENI) Despite of this, I think his claim is real, because it seemed to have noticed not only by Copper but also by Heartless. The only scenario he'd be scum in would be possible if both Heartless and Copper were scum with him. But, in this case, Heartless needn't have posted about Vettrock's claim at all, so, this is not too likely. In theory, Vettrock could have fake-hinted a Tracker, but in this case, Copper would have waited with outing him until his wagon would be bigger.
(2) Mastin. I don't know what to think. On one hand she's answered nothing to my case that could change my read on her. On the other hand, she's spent so much time and effort on me that it wouldn't make sense at all if she were scum. I mean, if she were scum and if she had spent the same amount of resources on building up a mislynch wagon, OMGUS-ing me or whatever (instead of on a player who's not even the most influent one in this game), she would have achieved more. Of course that would have only confirmed my scumread on her – but, she could have acquired a much bigger impact on everyone elses' reads. She still can be SK (she doesn't seem to fit my scumteam idea, see below) but I'm less confident about my reads on her than I used to be.
(3) There's something I should tell. I spotted something long ago that, I think, was a PR-hint and it wasn't Vettrock – it was someone else. I'm not telling anything more about this right now and I think it's obvious, why. If I'm right about that, (1) either there are 6 PRs in the game (2) or one of the claims is fake. If the latter one is true (and it's more likely – simply maths), the fake one must be Copper.
(4) BBT. I really hate his recent posts. In 1256 he posted a naked vote for Copper. In theory, I should be glad that he was voting for my scumread – in practice, that was terrible. I thought it was obvious that I wanted todiscussmy Copper-read before wagoning him. My first thought was that I'm wrong about Copper and BBT is a scum who wants to get rid of a town-PR without standing up and providing a case against him. But, then a couple of things happened.
His 1259: a scumread on Mastin and Heartless, but he was still voting for Copper!
Copper's 1266 was very weird:"100%, if you end up being town you also will get a ban request from me."– it's either over-reacting or a "fake interaction. But, if it was an over-reaction, why didn't he give a same reaction on my case? It was me, after all, who launched the case against him (even if I'm not voting right now). He answered that I'm misrepresenting him (which is not true) and I should be lynched – but I wasn't amongst his scumreads later! So, why didn't he want to ban me because of my case?
But then, in 1273, BBT votes for Mastin! What if he's just jumped off the Copper-wagon before it gets too big? And Copper joins the Mastin-wagon three posts later. (He was voting for BBT before... but the BBT-wagon wasn't moving at all at that time.)
So, it seems that I've been wrong BBT and he must be scum – and it's also possible that both him and Copper are scums!
Also, Heartless examined BBT's reads on Copper and that too confirms this read. (I must have missed it because I was focusing mostly on Vettrock and Mastin.) Especially the "it's an awesome scum fake-claim... it's a very bad fake claim" part is scummy.
So.
Could we sort out the Copper-question? He's still my strongest scumread – but, if we decide not to lynch him, we should lynch BBT, I think.
Something else.
Meanwhile, we shouldn't ingore Beast. Even if I don't understand why his flip would be informative about Copper and Mastin, KillerPenguin posted an interesting summary about him in 1282.-
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This will be a short answer because I need to leave soon.
Copper.
As for BBT, I see your point.
As for the massclaim. I've never suggested "auto-lynching" you, I've suggested a discussion about you, and I've done so because of your claim.
I still have a big problem with the massclaim. I haven't posted and don't post about it because if I did so, it would only help the scums. Since most of the players seem to agree with the massclaim, I'll explain my issues after it has happened. Let's hope that they haven't made a plan for this situation.
BBT. It's quite obvious that if a player does something scummy, the reads on him/her changes quickly. And it's not only me, whose reads has been changed. New pieces of information = changing reads.-
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Mastin, who has the popcorn now?
Did Penguin claim VT? I'm surprised because I thought that he was hinting a PR before. (Yes, I meant him in an earlier post. For reference, see eg. my 619, 1150, which were about Penguin's "things wouldn't end up well" or whatever, mentioned by eg. Tean in 530.)
The fact that Beast wanted to pass the popcorn to Copper was simply terrible.
In general, I won't say anything until the massclaim ends: we still miss a couple of claims and as I said, I don't want to give ideas to the scums.
On the other hand, we should summarize all the claims in the order of appearance, just as well the names, who were for and who were against the massclaim. I strongly think it'll be very informative later.-
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I'm off the work and I must admit that I haven't read the latest posts thoroughly. (I've found Wicked's claim, though.)
Later today I'll write a longer post. But for doing so, I must ask this: what do you all think the possibility of a PR-claim from the Tean slot is?
Also, Vettrock: have you written somewhere whom you Tracked? (If so, please, repeat it.)-
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So, Beast, are you MonkeyMan?!!? If so, I'll need to think about this information.
Wicked, your 1414 (about "BBT's ruining the game for town" and things like that) makes sense, I think.
BBT, 1424 –"Copper, in 1189 you were scum-reading Heartless. Here, they are no longer in your scum-reads. How did that happen?"– indeed, thanks for pointing it out! Also, as I said before, his vote for you was weird. If Copper flips scum (and I think he is), Heartless must be scum as well. I also liked your 1435 too.
Penguin, 1441 – you might be right about Beast. He indeed looks scummy but if he's MonkeyMan, I'll need to re-ISO him. I've met MonkeyMan a couple of times, I'm not allowed to talk about most of these games (because they're still on), but I think I have quite a useful amount of MonkeyMan meta...
________
Since the empty Tean-slot is the only one which hasn't claimed yet, and because noone considers it too likely that he might claim a PR later, the best lynch seems to be Copper. I don't think Vettrock is scum, BBT's latest posts might have come from a town-mindset. If Copper's a Vengeful (though I doubt it), he can shoot BBT. (I think eg. Vettrock said the same as the safest tactic in 1402.)
VOTE: Copper
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Am I a retard? Let's see.
In post 1442, copper223 wrote:@Killa
No, lynching in the PR pool unless someone else claims is by far the best move.
In post 1445, copper223 wrote:Should I end the day?
Oh, really?
According to the first quote my vote is logical. (By the way, if you were town, you wouldn't worry about my vote – accoding to your interaction you'd take BBT with you, since one of you two must be scum.) Also, my vote was not a hammer, I didn't end the Day.
The second quote is very scummy, especially since you wrote this in 1425:"@Heartless Vote me pls."(Yet another thing which points towards a Copper/Heartless scumteam. The third one has to be the Tean-slot and I have a damn good reason for thinking so.)
But, the third one, I think that one was a slip. Maybe I'm SK?!!SK?????Soooooo, it seems that youKNOWthat I'm not a Mafia becuaseyou know who your partners are!!!
COPPER IS SCUM.
(And for your information: I'm not the SK.)-
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In post 1452, Heartless wrote:hammering before a Tean replacement is a scum claim
Thanks, Heartless, you've just made a huge mistake. (Mind the context of that post!)
The Mafia Team are: Copper, Heartless and Tean. I'm explaining everything in my next post. Including the fact: why the massclaim was a terrible idea.-
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Okay, everyone!
Here's the story.
(1) The Mafiahad knownthe zone of the Setup (5–7 Ts, 3–4 Ts or 0–2 Ts)before the game started.
(2) On Day1 Copper fake-claimed. They must have made their plan after this fake-claim, at Night1. (I think it happened then, but they might have created it pre-game too.)
(3) On Day2, we saw that there were two kills. Since noone claimed a Vig-shot, it became clear that there's an SK. But,by that point, the Mafia knew CLEARLY what the Setup really was!
(4) Soon it got clear that the Setup is either TTT or T (4 PRs or 6 PRs) – but, as I said, the Mafia knew which one of them! I was against the massclaim all the time, because I saw how beneficial it to the Mafia-team could be.
Let's stop here for a second. Originally, I thought the massclaim will result a WIFOM. If it's T and all the claims are real, all the Mafia must be amongst the VTs. But,TTT is FIVE times more likely than T!(TTT has a chance of 35/128, while T is only 7/128.)
Why is it a WIFOM? Because, if there are six claims, mathematically it's about 16.67% that all of the claims are real and about 83.33% that two of them are fake. Of course, after six claims what would have the town think? This: the Setup is T and all the scums are amongst the VT-claims, even if there's only a 16.67% chance for it. Ignoring the possibility ofhaving EXACTLY TWO fake-claims!
(5) Therefore,the Mafia planned TWO fake-claims(and the Setup is TTT). One of these is Copper. The other fake-claim should have been Tean – but, he's not here! (That has been the single error in their plan.) Had he claimed, the situation written in (4) would have occoured.
But, suddenly the town got stuck in a situation which is unpleasant for them: there are five claims, so, it's clear that one of them is fake! Is it Copper? Or BBT? What did the Mafia think?"If the town lynched BBT, it would be bad for Copper... but, it's still better than a Copper-lynch which not only hurts us but also clears BBT. Unless... we prolong the Day until the Tean-slot gets filled and everything can go on according to the original plan."
(6)So. Copper is scum and he fake-claimed.The Tean-slot is the second scum.(I wouldn't surprised if the replacement instantly claimed a PR.)Heartless must be the third one, mostly because of some interactive tells (pointed out by eg. BBT), also eg. the"Heartless vote for me"sentence from Copper (Copper's reasoning in 1454 about the topic is pigeon poop.) But, their post:made that very likely. (Check out the context. NOONE was about to hammer Copper at that time. I also asked everyone about the possibilities of a Tean-PR-claim in 1418 and noone has f-cking answered!)"hammering before a Tean replacement is a scum claim"
I must admit, I have no idea why Heartless didn't claim a PR. Maybe Tean is the Mafia JOAT and he needs to be protected...?
As for the SK, I have no idea. One thing is clear: the SK is among the VT-claims. It's most probably Beast (but as I said, I'll re-ISO him) or (less likely?) Mastin. If BBT's town, Penguin is town too. (And I've been townreading Penguin for a long time, regardless of BBT.) If Wicked is the SK, then simply f-ck off.-
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