Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[acryon]

hi everyone.

VOTE: acryon

What's this about Drezi? Do we know each other?

[acryon]

Sorry guys. I've been crazy busy at work and now I have come down with the flu, so I'm replacing out of most of my games. This one is early enough that I don't feel it's necessary here, but I'll be V/LA-ish for a few days.

@Mod: V/LA until Friday

[acryon]

First, let's drop all the setup specualtion talk. Thank you.

Agreed, it's useless at this point. It can only really aid scum in finding who is a PR by the way people approach the topic.

I am torn on Sir Cyanide. At first, I thought it made some sense from a town-perspective to want to discuss the set-up a bit, but the amount he is harping on it is a little unsettling. Really feels like rolefishing.

Seems like croboss is particularly disinterested in finding scum, perhaps because he already knows the set-up. Doesn't properly read the thread either and has been very absent. Bandwagons me and then doesn't back up his reasoning either.

unvote

VOTE: croboss

Could you

possibly

talk about the setup any more? And calling croboss out based on that post seems pretty terrible. And below the quality of play that seemed to exist in your never-ending role discussions.

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

VOTE: SIR CYANIDE

[acryon]

Yes, which is ridiculous. I agree that it is silly that I came into the game for real on page 8 and had little to comment on other than a pile of setup discussion. Only scum gains from that. There should be more pushing for reactions, which town wins from.

While I have you here, do you honestly think 177 comes from scum?

[acryon]

No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point. Sample size was 120 games iirc, which is substantial. If you really think any of this discussion has even remotely outed PRs you need a reality check

So you analyzed specifically newbie games where the setup was heavily discussed at the start of the game? What a coincidence that you happened to conduct such an extremely narrow analysis.

There's a name for this type of reasoning but I forgot the 'official' terminology. Fencesitting? I don't remember. Either way, it's when you state absolutely nothing by posting random things that contradict each other. 'I thought it made sense' but it is 'unsettling', make up your mind.

I mean I think my vote showed that I'm not sitting the fence, right?

Seems like croboss is particularly disinterested in finding scum, perhaps because he already knows the set-up. Doesn't properly read the thread either and has been very absent. Bandwagons me and then doesn't back up his reasoning either.

unvote

VOTE: croboss

Could you

possibly

talk about the setup any more? And calling croboss out based on that post seems pretty terrible. And below the quality of play that seemed to exist in your never-ending role discussions.

You seem to have misunderstood me. The set-up here refers to who is mafia and who isn't, not about who is PR and who isn't. Croboss seems really disinterested in this game, he did not even read the topic properly, gives no explanation and posts random shit about House in an effort to appear like he is doing something. My 'he seems disinterested perhaps because he knows the set-up' here actually means 'he seems disinterested because he already knows who is mafia and who is town so the thrill of finding mafia is gone for him which is a reason for his disinterest'

How often does this reasoning actually lead you to scum?

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

They won't figure out anything.

You're either overestimating town, underestimating scum, or both, and all three are bad.

[acryon]

As for 202 I find that town are

far

more likely to miss details like someone claiming than scum. Scum tend to be a lot more careful.

[acryon]

I mean I think my vote showed that I'm not sitting the fence, right?

Fencesitting is probably the wrong terminology. You're reasoning for voting me is all over the place, you're basically saying 'you're doing [x] which I think is good but idk I think it's bad'. It's a typical scum tactic to justify a vote on someone.

That's not quite what I said. I said I could see some town motivation for wanting to discuss the things your discussing (how to play optimally as certain PRs for instance), but that you were taking it to a point beyond that, where I don't see a townie taking it.

How often does this reasoning actually lead you to scum?

Quite often.

I'm not saying this never happens, but in my experience, laziness/disinterest is not alignment indicative, and town are more likely to make mistakes than scum. But I suppose it's experience vs experience at that point.

[acryon]

but that you were taking it to a point beyond that, where I don't see a townie taking it.

Where, specifically?

I would say 114 was where it went too far for me. I don't think that specific scenario is worth pointing out really, and I think it can do more harm than good, but I'm going to intentionally be as vague as I can about that though.

[acryon]

It was just to convince house that there was more to IC than he thought. The actual examples are meaningless.

Well if your point was to inform of how to play IC, then why wouldn't you spend your time discussing how to do that instead of merely disproving House's statement that it was obvious, since by your own admission the example was meaningless.

So

acryon

. Now it is your turn to tell us, what did you find towny about croboss' posts. I didn't read anything from him that is towny.

It's not that I necessarily thought aspects of his posts were townie so much as I didn't think they were scummy. I think the mistake of not realizing the IC hadn't claimed is

far

more likely to come from town than scum, unless you would like to convince me that croboss is simply acting, which I would be willing to entertain but I don't believe you think is the case.

Also I like Drezi.

[acryon]

I'm curious about what people think of Lalendra's play. Specifically Dooku, House and NJAC.

I don't agrre with 41. Why didn't I state it right then? Becasue somebody (I think SC) already told her why would a quickhammer be good for the town: the quickhammer is a scumclaim. And 1 townie for 1 scum is a good exchange.

This is far from always being true.

I can be as scummy as I want to be, actually.

Is this an admission of scumminess?

This post reads like scum, btw.

If Riabi was town, he'd suspect if I was admitting to being scum. But he knows I'm not scum, so he's asking if I'm admitting to being scummy.

VOTE: Riabi

This seems very loose.

@Those voting croboss:
Explain to me how he is not just lynchbait?

[acryon]

@Those voting croboss:
Explain to me how he is not just lynchbait?

I don't know, maybe you should vote him to find out. What do you say?

Nope. Explain to me why he is actually likely to be scum.

[acryon]

@Those voting croboss:
Explain to me how he is not just lynchbait?

I don't know, maybe you should vote him to find out. What do you say?

Nope. Explain to me why he is actually likely to be scum.

We already explained it several times. But I don't understand why are you defending him. Drezi at least told us, why is he defending him (kinda).

It's your job to prove why I should lynch him, not mine to prove why we shouldn't (especially when my view is "I don't think he's scum" which is different from "I think he's town"). One of those stances is a lot more drastic than the other, which is why more responsibility lies on you. You (and the others) have failed to convince me why he isn't just lynchbait.

[acryon]

@acryon
Did you read 262 and my conversation with Drezi? Or Sir Cyanide's posts about croboss?
If you still don't understand why do we think that he is scum, we cannot help you. You don't need to agree with us, but you should understand our pov at least, and not asking silly questions...

Your reasoning in 185 is absolutely terrible. And the rest of your reasons in 219 are better, but still not near egregious enough to illicit the level of confidence you are portraying based on one post.

222 is terrible, but I could see that from a newbie of either alignment that didn't understand the gravity of such a statement.

I

do

understand your points of view, but I am asking you to reconsider, taking into account him being a newbie and how often the kind of play he is actually showing us turns up scum.

[acryon]

It's your job to prove why I should lynch him, not mine to prove why we shouldn't (especially when my view is "I don't think he's scum" which is different from "I think he's town").

This is my stance on Croboss, atm. He's done things that I would call scummy in other people,

-like only voting for people with a wagon
-Fail to give out reads or show involvement, and justifying his failure via 'I'm bad' or 'The burden doesn't fall upon me to be town'
-Discusses theory in an oddly blunt and undetailed fashion.

. .Its as if he is mature (older than a kid) and intelligent enough to grasp the basic theories, but doesn't quite get the social aspect of the game. This is a game of logic, but also about the minds of others. Its literally half a popularity contest.

I've seen newbscum do this before, which is why I'm concerned.

Yes, this is my worry as well.

[acryon]

@acryon I am willing to reevaulate my reads. But croboss didn't do anything to change my mind... And do you know what bothers me more? The fact that he went back to lurking after he got 3 votes. A townie would defend himself and wouldn't avoid to come here...

That's fair, but looking at his general posting history, it seems pretty spotty in his other threads as well, including a recent replace-out due to being too busy.

[acryon]

Okay acryon. We know who is not scum according to you. Then who do you think

is

scum?

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out asking questions.

We still have over two weeks until D/L, so I'm not exactly in a hurry to get someone lynched at the moment.

[acryon]

Okay acryon. We know who is not scum according to you. Then who do you think

is

scum?

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out asking questions.

We still have over two weeks until D/L, so I'm not exactly in a hurry to get someone lynched at the moment.

Who is? I don't want to lynch anyone right now. But I want to put pressure on croboss.
So you don't have any sort of scumreads?

I've got feelings, but I'd rather navigate them through watching and questioning than by directly stating them at this point.

[acryon]

You play close to your chest, it seems.
Do you have any scum games you would recommend I look at in particular?

I play differently depending on the game.

I only have 2 scum games on this site and they are both in my wiki. Friends and Enemies was my favorite.

[acryon]

I like you pisskop.

[acryon]

Somehow I knew you two would be voting each other at some point.

[acryon]

How about you..... you know what, you don't deserve any sort of witty retort. So how about you just fuck off and die. That work for you?

Damn dude, what the hell is that reaction for? Cynide is right, no one is forcing you to play this game.

Is this a joke? Not sure how words work in your world, but somehow I'm not surprised describing someone as "whining like a little bitch" brought out a harsh response.

[acryon]

But I do think everyone should play nice

[acryon]

I'm really going to have to do some research and see if that kind of talk tends to come from a scumie or townie.

Since I came back to this site, I've seen that kind of line at least 8 times now.

Yeah, this is super forced.

VOTE: pisskop

Would you say your playstyle is relatively consistent?

[acryon]

But I do think everyone should play nice

But Acryon, "fuck off and die" is nice by my standards.

Oh, I know, but others may not!

[acryon]

I would like to take this opportunity to call everyone's attention to Rules #1, 11, and 28.

Thank you.

#11? What's that?

11) Rule Eleven no longer applies, and I am too lazy to renumber everything hence.

Obv.

[acryon]

Dammit. Stop ninjaing the Mod.

[acryon]

OMG Dooku, learn to recognise sarcasm already!

TBF, Sith don't deal in sarcasm.

[acryon]

This makes me feel icky. Why next time you meet? Why couldn’t you be of opposite alignments this game? It’s almost like you know who your teammates are or something…

This is a nice catch, you know? Maybe even a scumslip. It's worth pursuing. When we finish with croboss, let's vote fisaro. Alright?

This pings.

It does read disingenuous, but I think I agree with the sentiment. I

hate

going after "scumslips", but that one does look like it actually could be.

[acryon]

This makes me feel icky. Why next time you meet? Why couldn’t you be of opposite alignments this game? It’s almost like you know who your teammates are or something…

This is a nice catch, you know? Maybe even a scumslip. It's worth pursuing. When we finish with croboss, let's vote fisaro. Alright?

This pings.

It does read disingenuous, but I think I agree with the sentiment. I

hate

going after "scumslips", but that one does look like it actually could be.

Are you actually defending NJAC?

*paranoid*

No, but that doesn't mean part of what he said isn't worth looking at.

[acryon]

Or deathfisaro, after Lalendra pointed out something interesting.

Do you think it was a scumslip?

[acryon]

I will try to catch up all

Nice.

@everyone
I want you guys to keep in mind while you read these catch-up posts that it is easier to make catch-up posts/reads look towny.

What is this? Some kind of weird disclaimer on Rach's catch-up posts to paint them black before people even read?

[acryon]

I will try to catch up all

Nice.

@everyone
I want you guys to keep in mind while you read these catch-up posts that it is easier to make catch-up posts/reads look towny.

What is this? Some kind of weird disclaimer on Rach's catch-up posts to paint them black before people even read?

Nope. It is a reminder.

Wouldn't it be more effective to address how genuine the posts seem after the fact?

[acryon]

Maybe it would. Then keep in mind this guys.

It just sort of seems like your intention with the timing of that comment was to A) make town-Rach look bad to the town before she even gets her first real post, or B) coaching to scum-Rach to be careful about her catch-up post. I feel A) is far more likely.

[acryon]

Do you have any experience with Rach?

Not sure if you're talking to me, but not really. She was in my first newbie game and had to replace out somewhat early on.

[acryon]

Maybe it would. Then keep in mind this guys.

It just sort of seems like your intention with the timing of that comment was to A) make town-Rach look bad to the town before she even gets her first real post, or B) coaching to scum-Rach to be careful about her catch-up post. I feel A) is far more likely.

Who was talking about Rach? I was talking about the cath-up posts.
Not Rach is the only one who will catch up.

Well you did post it shortly after her catch-up intent and quoted her on the same post.

[acryon]

And what? It is ridiculous. Everything I say in one post have to be related?!
Of course I was talking about her too. But not only about her. Deathfisaro and croboss will do a cath up for example (at least I hope they will).

I mean she posted saying that she was going to catch up. You quote that post and mention that we should be skeptical of catch up posts. Is it actually far-fetched that I relate the two? And she is the only one that actually mentioned a catch-up post as far as I can tell, so I feel like anyone would look at that post and assume you were talking (at least mostly) about her.

[acryon]

I thought it was a relatively town thing for Dooku to do.
I picture young Dooku getting ready for high school, and it seems like a pro-town thing to say.

Doesn't town lose a lot of edge by saying that before the catch-up posts even come? Because now any scum doing catch-up posts will simply post with that statement from Dooku in mind.

[acryon]

When did I say "be careful with Rach Marie's cath up posts"? Yes. Be careful with them. But not only with them... with every cath up, generally.
It became appropriate when she said that she will do a cath up, so I reminded you.

But it's a little disingenuous I think to not think people would relate the two. If I said "Hey guys, I love pizza" and then you say shortly after "Beware of all people who say they love pizza". You can say you were talking about everyone, but the fact is it was the most applicable by far to Rach so it seemed directed in that way.

There's a large difference between pro-town sentiment and solid-play.

"Loose lips sink ships, but every pair of them isn't a Jap spy"

- I feel like you are over-reaching.
Do you find other Dooku posts to be odd? Which ones?

That could be, but we find scum by digging a little bit. I wouldn't say I necessarily find his other posts odd, but I thought that one was. I could be way off, but it seemed worth pursuing.

[acryon]

And I do love pizza FWIW, and you shouldn't be wary of me because of it. Don't let Dooku tell you differently.

[acryon]

I thought it was a relatively town thing for Dooku to do.
I picture young Dooku getting ready for high school, and it seems like a pro-town thing to say.

Doesn't town lose a lot of edge by saying that before the catch-up posts even come? Because now any scum doing catch-up posts will simply post with that statement from Dooku in mind.

Actually I'm seconding Dooku's statement.

Also what can scum do about it? Write a non-towny catchup post? It's only a reminder for town, not to be overwhelmed feeling "omg so town" while reading a catchup post, but read it carefully and judge it for what it is instead. He probably remembered to say this after reading Rachmarie's post, thus the timing.

UNVOTE: Count Dooku

This makes one less thing going against the possibility of scum!croboss.

I'm not disagreeing with the statement, but I do think we lose edge by it being said in that place. And no, they won't "write a non-towny" catchup post, but it can certainly shape the way they phrase things/what to put out/what not to put out. I think it also actively discourages actual townies from making longer more solid catch-up posts in fear of them being written off as scum/disingenuous.

Idk, maybe I'm just wrong here, but it seemed worth considering to me.

[acryon]

I think it also actively discourages actual townies from making longer more solid catch-up posts in fear of them being written off as scum/disingenuous.

Absolutely not, making a solid pro-town post is not something to fear regardless, simply we need to stay open minded, and not consider some people town for granted because of that.

I don't think you can speak for the psyche of all townies on this, but either way, I think we're passed the real point of that discussion anyway.

Btw if it came down to a lynch between croboss and House which would you prefer?

If I had to choose, I would say croboss, but at this point I don't want either.

[acryon]

This feels wrong too. Again, you are attempting to turn CD's post into an absolutist statement.

I don't like it at all. Its logically flawed.

unvote

vote: acryon

I am not trying to turn it into an absolute statement at all, and if I am, that actually would be

against

the point I am trying to make because it would make the statement even more detached from Rach if it was a clear statement of absolute. So you're actually logically backwards here.

He referenced Rach's post about catching up and in the same post made a comment about being wary of people's catch-up posts. That is a fact. To act like the two aren't related seems ignorant at best.

[acryon]

Let's note there is also a difference between me making a general comment to the town about Dooku's apparent intentions and me engaging him directly on it right off the bat.

[acryon]

The jump from 'be mindful of catch-up posts' to 'pizza was liked by evil people, thus pizza is bad' is fairly significant, and is certainly a shift towards absolutism.

Lol this is also logically

much

different than even what I said about the pizza thing.

When did I say "be careful with Rach Marie's cath up posts"? Yes. Be careful with them. But not only with them... with every cath up, generally.]
It became appropriate when she said that she will do a cath up, so I reminded you.

But it's a little disingenuous I think to not think people would relate the two. If I said "Hey guys, I love pizza" and then you say shortly after "Beware of all people who say they love pizza". You can say you were talking about everyone, but the fact is it was the most applicable by far to Rach so it seemed directed in that way.

What Dooku says in 370 us exctly how I read his 354; there is in fact a clear distinction between his reaction to Rach and his statement '@Everyone'.

The relationship is in the proximity to each other, and thus wifomy at best. I could as easily claim you wanted to me to picture the arguement in its 'Hitler Loved Dogs' form.

Maybe this is just a misunderstanding of what I was saying.

Did I start off with a strong accusation in the question toward Dooku? Yep, because something tells me "Hey Bro, did you have any bad intentions in that statement?" wouldn't get me a reply of value.

[acryon]

So vague analogies and presenting a false dilemma is pro-town?

Maybe it would. Then keep in mind this guys.

It just sort of seems like

your intention with the timing of that comment was to A) make town-Rach look bad to the town before she even gets her first real post, or B) coaching to scum-Rach to be careful about her catch-up post. I feel A) is far more likely.

How about c)
. His comment meant nothing to Rach.

I want you to look at the wording in bold.

So vague analogies and presenting a false dilemma is pro-town?

Maybe it would. Then keep in mind this guys.

It just sort of seems like your intention with the timing of that comment was to A) make town-Rach look bad to the town before she even gets her first real post, or B) coaching to scum-Rach to be careful about her catch-up post. I feel A) is far more likely.

How about c)
. His comment meant nothing to Rach.

EBWOP:
*WRT Rach specifically.*

You are not inquiring, you are inferring and narrating a story.

I am

offering

a

possible

story. Ultimately this game boils down to lynches based on whatever story the majority agrees sounds best.

[acryon]

And excluding the neutral or positive alternatives really lends itself to biased opinions. You were in effect painting him black for suggesting we watch the lurkers carefully.

Except I was engaging him in a dialogue. And you don't get reactions by including the neutral and positive alternatives. You get reactions by making accusations and taking a stance.

[acryon]

Okay. It was pressure then.

I'm a little unsure about his early posting, but after a few pokes he's posting fine.
-What do you think of Dooku then?
-House
-SC

And I gather you don't like the Croboss wagon.

No specific posts I can point out really besides that most recent one, but Dooku is giving me a weird feeling. I know that sounds vague, so if you want to call it a null that's fine.

House seems town. He's calling people on their crap, which is pro-town.

I still don't think SC has actually contributed much to the game or done much actual scumhunting. Lots of the IC talk that was discussed earlier by me, makes a case on the clear low-hanging fruit in croboss, and some of his posts are just weird. His most recent one about the Rach thing is just off. I mean I don't see scum actually making the post, but it is also a really crappy way to get people to jump on, because I don't really see someone biting that easily. He's most likely scum to me as of now.

Don't like the croboss wagon. Give me some more croboss content and we'll see. Luckily we have plenty of time left for me to get it, so things can change and my reads can get better.

[acryon]

@acryon
"Give me some more croboss content"
There you go. He hasn't given us any content since he got a pressure on himself. He is avoiding this game. A townie would avoid playing when there's a wagon on him? I don't think so...

Well you can't say he is avoiding the game, because you don't know his RL. And I don't subscribe to Lynch All Lurkers. Especially since we have so much time left today, I think we can do better.

[acryon]

It is not LAL.. He made some obvscum things, then ge got some pressure, he couldn't defend himself, and he is avoiding specifically this game. This is not lynch all lurkers. Your defending of him is ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous. What I

do

think is ridiculous is so strongly advocating lynching someone with less than 10 posts with almost 2 weeks left until deadline.

[acryon]

It is not LAL.. He made some obvscum things, then ge got some pressure, he couldn't defend himself, and he is avoiding specifically this game. This is not lynch all lurkers. Your defending of him is ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous. What I

do

think is ridiculous is so strongly advocating lynching someone with less than 10 posts with almost 2 weeks left until deadline.

It is funny that you ignore every scummy thing I said and pointed out about croboss, and saying that we shouldn't lynch him because he lurked thus he only has 9 posts... You are my 2nd scumread right now.

What? I've addressed the things you thought he did that were scummy previously. I don't see how you can be sure that literally all of them would be done by newbtown or newbscum.
I never said "we shouldnt lynch him because he lurked thus he only has 9 posts". It's more like any amount of scumminess in his current 9 posts could easily be attributed to newbtown, so we need more than those 9 to determine if that's the case or not. Nice misrep though.

[acryon]

@acryon you didn't answer my question. Isn't it (see 401-402) obvscum?

Well I got myself into a little trouble discussing that area of croboss before, so I'm not going to address his activity elsewhere.

[acryon]

@acryon you didn't answer my question. Isn't it (see 401-402) obvscum?

Well I got myself into a little trouble discussing that area of croboss before, so I'm not going to address his activity elsewhere.

In my experience, pointing out the fact someone is posting elsewhere isn't a no-no, as long as there is no commentary on what they are posting.

That said, I don't claim to speak for ika, just talking about typical scenarios.

That makes sense, but either way there's not much we can do about it. I'm not going to burn him just because he takes the time to make a quickpost on another game and not on this one. We can question him when he gets here.

[acryon]

434 = shitposting

Idk about that.

@Victor
When we are closer to deadline, and nobody else does scummier things.

I don't think town's benefit from holding off a lynch when they have a scummy player. And if you think he's obvscum, why exactly wait and see if someone scummier emerges? That doesn't really make sense.

Can you answer this for my benefit then?

[acryon]

Yeah yeah, I know, being inactive is not necessarily alignment-indicative. Wanna know a secret though? Fucking nothing at all is alignment-indicative. What you do is you take all the information you have and this should create an inner narrative; 'would scum do this? would town do this?' and then you should have a vague probability in your head about how likely someone is to be scum and if you're not delusional that probability should be close to 50%. Can anyone tell me here with a straight face that lurking to this extent is

NOT

pro-scum and

NOT

anti-town? Yeah, that's what I thought. Don't get me wrong, I agree that inactivity isn't as alignment-indicative as things with a similar level of pro-scuminess are, but I don't think anyone here can tell me that town and scum have a perfect 50/50 distribution of inactivity. Scum are more likely to exhibit that behavior.

Obviously "lurking" is bad for town, but I don't think that's what he was doing. Going beyond that is kind of a grey area, but I am skeptical of anyone who looked at the information available for him and decided he was definitely lurking.

[acryon]

Truth is, lurking isn't alignment indicative. It's playstyle indicative. It

can

help determine a player's alignment based on that particular person's playstyle, but it's more of an individual tell than a stereotypical tell.

As an example, my activity is about the same regardless of my alignment (I run through my games and post), so trying to use activity as an alignment tell for players such as myself (one way or the other) would be foolish.

Listen to this guy people.

[acryon]

Truth is, lurking isn't alignment indicative. It's playstyle indicative. It

can

help determine a player's alignment based on that particular person's playstyle, but it's more of an individual tell than a stereotypical tell.

As an example, my activity is about the same regardless of my alignment (I run through my games and post), so trying to use activity as an alignment tell for players such as myself (one way or the other) would be foolish.

Listen to this guy people.

Please sheep more.

If telling people to listen to someone's correct perspective on something is sheeping, then I

will

continue to sheep.

[acryon]

VOTE: Dooku

I like that everyone who is voting me has valid reasons behind it. (sarcasm)

Riabi votes Dooku with one of the reasons being he is getting really defensive.
Dooku gets really defensive about it.

[acryon]

What? Pointing out the fact that there are no actual reasons is defensive? Then I used this word in a wrong way in my entire life...

I think it's the way you phrased what you did.

It wasn't:

I can't say I get this vote from you. What are your actual reasons behind it?

It was:

I like that everyone who is voting me has valid reasons behind it. (sarcasm)

You weren't engaging in a discussion following the vote or asking questions; you were scoffing.

[acryon]

I can tell you why didn't I ask him... As you can see there are 8 questions from me only on this page. Riabi ignored all of them, and called me defensive because I asked them. And you don't understand why did I stopped asking more questions from him?
And now I am going offline, and not because I want to run away, but because it is late here (Victor).

I mean I guess, but posts like 477 and 479 don't exactly speak of a desire for productive conversation. So not sure what you expected from questions like that.

[acryon]

Town: Lynch Count Dooku today, and if he flips town lynch me tomorrow because I've been campaigning hard for his lynch.

I hate when people say things like this. Town gains zero from this kind of statement. Just stand by your reads and let the town decide things for themselves tomorrow. Do these kind of ultimatums actually ever convince anyone to follow you anyway?

House

It's difficult to read someone who doesn't know what he's doing himself. Had a weak town read earlier but that swapped over to a weak scum read. Just posts a lot of weird shit, for example, 248 and 241 together in such quick succession is softclaiming IC to me which seems incredibly anti-town especially because there was no real immediate threat of him getting lynched. [post]503[/b] is also fucked up, everyone with half a brain and a little bit of mafia experience knows that you can't be that certain... now why would he put his own life on the line like that...? Yeah. He also thinks nearly everyone is suspicious, it's not really setting up a healthy town environment by FoSing everyone in the game and swapping votes around like crazy. Once again as stated at the beginning I'm pretty sure he's insane and I am approaching this in a sane manner, so I can't really read him scum. At first I thought he was drawing in the NK by softclaiming IC but his #503 is way too subtle for drawing in the NK.

If you thought he was softclaiming IC, why in the world would you point that out?

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts. Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

[acryon]

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts.

Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

Which is? Are you saying that croboss' posts had motivation?

No, the second part of Victor's post in bold. I should have been more clear.

[acryon]

Contrary to a lot of people here I don't think scum needs to have (or will have) an agenda.

I also don't think they necessarily need to. But if we are going to indict someone based on their posting alone, absent apparent scum agenda, then you need to have more than a few posts to back that up.

Also, I no longer believe he was soft-claiming IC. I did at first, which is why I did not point it out then.

What made you change your mind?

[acryon]

Blue is the mod color. You want to get modkilled?

TBF,

bolded

blue is his color.

[acryon]

It is funny that everyone suspects the more active players, and let the lurkers lurk.
I decided that I won't/rarely will introduce new topics in this game from now on; I think this is the only game her on ms, where everyone who talks about something new is going to be suspected.

You're just getting defensive here. Just play the game how you play it, and stop acting like a victim. Suspicion that others have on you doesn't appear to have anything to do with activity level, and using activity level as a reason to suspect someone either way is bad.

[acryon]

Dooku makes a good point btw which is also why I originally stopped playing on this site. "Be the best you can be by being the least you can be" reigns supreme here and there's a shitfuckton of tolerance for lurkers.

I agree that there may be too much tolerance for lurkers, but what can you really do? Vote and pressure the player and then they just flake while the real scum live on because we focused on lurkers? It's an unfortunate thing to navigate through for sure, but lynching all lurkers sucks and so does ignoring them completely. The best we can do is try to find a nice middle ground, and I don't think lynching croboss is where we want to be.

[acryon]

Blue is the mod color. You want to get modkilled?

TBF,

bolded

blue is his color.

No. The color is the mod color. Using that color whether bold or not can mislead players into thinking it's the mod's words.

Well, I was literally quoting what the mod's post says:

5)

Bolded Blue

is my color. Do not use it, under penalty of Impersonating The Mod (which is modkillable; don't make me do it).

[acryon]

Although personally I wish no one would ever use color of any kind besides the mod.

[acryon]

Oh the AtE here is blinding!

Yeah, I'm unsure what to make of the replace out. I know it's usually best to just not dwell on it, because they are generally not alignment-indicative, but it's hard to ignore it completely.

[acryon]

Oh the AtE here is blinding!

Yeah, I'm unsure what to make of the replace out. I know it's usually best to just not dwell on it, because they are generally not alignment-indicative, but it's hard to ignore it completely.

It's not so much the replace out as the post right before it and the timing of it.

Right

Well at least we still have plenty of time to talk to the replacement.

[acryon]

I like Reminisence better than Dooku so far, but that could just be because people that seem to get emotional often can rub me the wrong way.

@Sakura Hana: I still contend that it was not a strawman, and was a valid concern, as others have noted. And you can't deny that it got the kind of reactions we want as town as well.

Also, NJAC appears to be an

acronym

, I am an

acryon

.

[acryon]

Hi Hana! Remember that time you were scum and I got you lynched? That's going to happen again!

Point out some of those glorious House questions, please.

So I take it you know her pretty well?

[acryon]

Nope. I played one game with her. It was intense.

I took you calling her "Hana" as knowing her well, not remembering that it's in her username

[acryon]

Also is it just me or the misreps in this game are... pretty strong, and everyone seems to be following them for no reason.

I get what you're saying, but I think "misreps" later in the game are really what you want to watch out for. But on day 1, when we are fishing for reactions,

some

level of exaggeration adds some coals to the fire to get us the reactions we need. Walking on eggshells or being timid won't get us there.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday which I always do.

[acryon]

FWIW, I would be ok with a Dooku lynch, but I don't feel like putting him to L-1 with so much time left.

[acryon]

Its actually sounds like a softclaim in 631, to be frank.

This pings me. I don't see why any town would bring forth a possible soft-claim when such person hasn't died yet

What do you make of Sir Cyanide bringing up a possible soft-claim from House (although he later says he changed his mind)?

I now see that Drezi calls this out later on, but I think your follow-up in 653 is not a real answer.

I even liked the way he inquired Dooku with all the Rach thing.

Huh, so you liked his strawman?

I think you are misunderstanding my comments because you keep calling them a strawman for some reason. The comments I made regarding his comment and the connection to Rach were completely legitimate. The only thing that is questionable is the nefarious intent behind it. And that's because of what I explained before. It makes way more sense and gets way more informative reactions to question someone with "Hey what did you mean by this? Seems like you're trying to do X" than "Hey what did you mean by this?" For town, the two are pretty close to equal in terms of difficulty of answering, and for scum, the former is much more annoying to answer. I like somewhat pointed questions significantly more than totally open-ended ones.

[acryon]

Wrong again.
None of your pressure or digging or whatever you wanna call it if it wasn't a strawman was anywhere about figuring out Dooku's alignment, it was more of the intent of making Dooku look bad despite he making a legitimate statement "It's easy to make a townie Catch-up post" to warn us. When i look at your reasoning "Because he quoted Rach, he's trying to warn us about Rach, since no one else mentioned catch up posts" It looks to me like you're just taking a portion of his statement "He quoted Rach" and ignore everything else to try to put pressure on there, this is called a Strawman, and is one of the tactics i used back on Madoka (The game Drezi's talking about where i replaced in and made a super townie catch up post) to shift the lynch from me to someone else.

Ugh I had a post written but have no idea how to restart from a saved draft, so I guess it's lost to the void.

Basically, the two of us each have our perspective, and we are both making assumptions on the intent of his post. So it's a little disingenuous to act like you are operating off of truth and I am operating off of assumption, when we are both operating off of the latter. Just because our perspectives disagree doesn't mean I'm perpetuating a fallacy. Acting like his post had no possible intentional connection to Rach is

at least as bad

as acting like it's the only possibility. Although your's is actually worse since it's a perspective that leads to an action with less pressure than mine.

[acryon]

Basically, the two of us each have our perspective, and we are both making assumptions on the intent of his post. So it's a little disingenuous to act like you are operating off of truth and I am operating off of assumption, when we are both operating off of the latter. Just because our perspectives disagree doesn't mean I'm perpetuating a fallacy. Acting like his post had no possible intentional connection to Rach is at least as bad as acting like it's the only possibility. Although your's is actually worse since it's a perspective that leads to an action with less pressure than mine.

Oh?
And isn't that exactly what you did when

he himself explained that it was a general statement that he made?

, It seems that im the one going off the truth and you're the one basing it on an assumption.

Do I really have to explain how you and I disagreeing about what someone else said is different than me questioning the actual person about it? Do I also have to explain that I'm not going to take statements of explanation by an individual in question at face value, especially those said by people I suspect?

[acryon]

Sakura Hana - Just a quick fyi for you, I didn't even know that an Amished tell was a thing before this game.

If anything, this just lends Sakura's suspicions credence.

If you're scum that doesn't know about this supposed tell, you don't know to be wary of criticizing your predecessor.

If you're town that doesn't know about it, your name is House (because I've done the same thing when I replaced into a town slot in the past).

FWIW, I'm not sure of his alignment in the other game I played with Metal, but his somewhat clumsy (hopefully no offense taken here) way of playing was existent there as well as here.