Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

We were on CoM's wagon before Magna was.

But you didn't start crazy-hard pushing them until SnarkySnowman was in danger.

You mean when the lynch that was going to be on our top scum read we were reading as 100% scum was starting to get shifted to someone we had a lesser, but uncertain scum read. We didn't need to hard push them when it was all but agreed on that they were going to be lynched that day.

And it was only at that point when you started crazy-hard pushing them (after MagnaofIllusion had joined the wagon) that MagnaofIllusion posted that very strong townread on you.

We weren't in any danger of a scum read from Magna in the first place. There was no indication that he suspected us, in fact Nacho was working quite well with him before then.

Have you realized the mental gymnastics that you're trying to do to call us scum yet? You thought you found something that you could push because we pointed out that thing about Magna liking people who agree with him and thought you could twist it into the motivation for us pushing our read, but it doesn't actually make any sense. The funny thing is I could see your argument maybe if CoM flipped scum because then you could say we were doing it for town cred, but doing it to push through a mislynch where we'd just look bad if Snarky flips scum. Are you actually thinking that through?

[Imperium]

I don't see them as gathering allies. I do a similar thing to what he did at the beginning in which i look for people I enjoy working with.

It isn't alignment indicative to look for people you enjoy working with, but to start the game like that then not follow up... I got the impression he was going to get into the thick of it from the way he started. That looks fake to me when I add that to the other things he's done in this game. I mean do you look for players you enjoy working with, indicate you want to work with them, then not work with them? In any case, throwing around easy town reads isn't looking for people you want to work with, this is something he's done alot of, & makes up more of why I said he was gathering allies. & what makes me persist with this thinking is... when I questioned why he was doing this, his response was this...

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

This was a load of bollocks. I wasn't even voting for Killthestory, yet now he was starting to see the case on me for this reason apparently. But what was I doing? Questioning the unquestionable Lowell, & he reacted by trying to make some shit up about me, that was 100% made up unfortunately for him. My stance on Killthestory posted hours before & directly above the Lowell post I've quoted was...

Killthestory can you give at least some of your reads on people so far? It's gonna be hard to work out your alignment with no content.

Notice that he now has his vote on me after I voted for him exhibiting the same behaviour as here. Now he'll be shocked if I'm town because; 'Cautious as whoa'. This was tacked on reasoning for his OMGUs vote. & low posting doesn't make me think someone is scum, it just makes them harder to read. It's what he does when he posts, & the pattern of his play.

I have several times told someone I wanted to work with them and then not done so right away especially early day one when I'm feeling people out. Sometimes I'll reach out to someone to see how they react and it helps me read them. A lot of people do sheep ABR though and that's usually because when he's town he pushes his reads with a single mindedness that causes some people to follow them.

I'll look back at the rest of your stuff in a bit because I'll have to read it in context.

[Imperium]

I haven't been able to catch up as much as I would have liked today, but I feel like I should post some quick thoughts. I'm caught up since my substitution, for what little that's worth. Like OceanWind so far. I kept reading things about Imperium's huge push on the D1 lynch, and found a bit of time to go back and see what happened at the end of D1 and I saw this:

1. The contradiction of jumping on Creeper’s wagon but later in the day Town reading the slot as “low hanging fruit”.
2. The insistence in voting the Kain slot (who had not posted in thread) over the claimed scum Bella slot (who actually had posted in thread) with the justification that Kain was obviously more scummy for having flaked yet not being able to support that position with anything other than “you don’t know site meta”.
3. Alternating waves of pointless sarcasm, claiming scum and Appeals to Emotion and Fear.
4. Hopping on every wagon that looks to save their own necks with that being the sole justification.
5. Complete void of scum-hunting from the slot.

and my immediate thought was, "someone has never played with ABR before." But I know Nacho has and I would bet a dollar Tammy has. So was this a fairly accurate summary of the points on ChurchOfMercy? Or is this just your own thoughts, Magna?

No, that's a good summary. ABR was largely absent which was a bit concerning as he hates scum role pms. But his absence would have been one thing and might have been able to be dismissed as ABR being disengaged. I've never seen a town!disengaged ABR, but I've heard it happens sometimes. He claimed scum twice, the first one looked somewhat biting and sarcastic, but the second time looked serious. The majority of the this is definitely scum came whatever the hell Klingoncelt thought she was doing. I'm still baffled at her play and not sad at all that she's gone if she was going to continue playing that way.

[Imperium]

I can't tell if killthestory is trolling or if he believes what he's saying.

[Imperium]

Your point is that you don’t buy that Snarky can be convinced to change is read on Bella based on that post. That doesn’t sell me in the least. I feel like you are trying to split hairs by saying “Kill never gave reasons” when the reasons are the associative tells themselves – Acryon being auto-Town with a Bella scum flip.

Okay, how does Snarky change his read on Bella from his "townlean" group to his "scumlean" group based on kill saying "Acryon is auto-town if Bella is mafia?" It's not that he put faith in the post or that he was more willing to lynch Bellaphant because of that post. He actually changed his read due to it.

It looks to me like he is mafia faking reads on players including a townlean on Bellaphant. When he saw killthestory make that big heading saying that we're lynching Bella, he skimmed through it, assumed it was a "case," and changed his read so he could hop on the wagon if it took off whether it was a bus or a mislynch.

If he was going to do that then a mislynch is a mislynch why didn't he just hop on CoM then?

[Imperium]

Didn't bellaphant replace out first? Why do we have a replacement for acryon before bellaphant?

[Imperium]

Your point is that you don’t buy that Snarky can be convinced to change is read on Bella based on that post. That doesn’t sell me in the least. I feel like you are trying to split hairs by saying “Kill never gave reasons” when the reasons are the associative tells themselves – Acryon being auto-Town with a Bella scum flip.

Okay, how does Snarky change his read on Bella from his "townlean" group to his "scumlean" group based on kill saying "Acryon is auto-town if Bella is mafia?" It's not that he put faith in the post or that he was more willing to lynch Bellaphant because of that post. He actually changed his read due to it.

It looks to me like he is mafia faking reads on players including a townlean on Bellaphant. When he saw killthestory make that big heading saying that we're lynching Bella, he skimmed through it, assumed it was a "case," and changed his read so he could hop on the wagon if it took off whether it was a bus or a mislynch.

If he was going to do that then a mislynch is a mislynch why didn't he just hop on CoM then?

Because he was setting up future fucking mislynches.
He perpetually left the idea of a CoM switch over, kept pushing us as opposite alignment, meaning any one
Are you saying you've never seen someone try to groom a mislynch before?

Like fuck SS is obvscum. I don't understand why I have to make so much effort?

You're letting him fucking hide under the radar because shitters like MoI who think they have a fucking clue when they don't are making a big deal about shit that doesn't matter rn.

How is he not transparently trying to wait under the radar till the lynch moves over right now. how?

Thank you for stomping through my line of questioning. It's as if I'm not trying to understand people other than Snarky.

Hard to imagine. I know.

[Imperium]

personally, i cant read vi's. i cant tell if it comes from a town perspective or is scum motivated.

however, ranger townreading MoI is no suprise since I'm also getting somewhat town vibes i guess. as long as his reasons arent shit for either of his reads then id be fine with it. i just dont have to agree with specific reads.

Please stop calling people vi's especially when you don't know what the term actually means or how to apply it. It just creates a hostile game environment which makes everything less pleasant.

[Imperium]

It's too early to tell though and I'm waiting to see those cases on Snarky and Imperium that'll likely give me a more accurate read.

Unfortunately, my priorities will be elsewhere for...a while. Not sure how long. But I'm devoting a lot of energy to a place not here, and I'm not certain how long this will take. At least a couple of days, maybe longer. So, full cases will have to wait.

I already gave some of the highlights in what I see in SnarkySnowman, but for Imperium, for a start, their posting simply hasn't felt town for the majority of the game. It was vaguely townish-looking initially, enough that I was giving them a pass and looking elsewhere, but it was not something where I could instantly view them and go, "town". Then, you get Imperium's strong push on CoM, over the push on SnarkySnowman. This in spite of how SnarkySnowman's predecessor was a scumread of theirs. Once SnarkySnowman came in, suddenly, without them stating a read change, they refuse to support the wagon despite earlier having driven the wagon. This was also the time where interest in lynching SnarkySnowman came. So, in short: they were pushing the slot when nobody was interested (distancing), but once interest formed, they went elsewhere.

This is best highlighted by the events of page 32: Imperium had claimed, "SnarkySnowman has no scumgames" as part of the SnarkySnowman defense. Yet, after finding one, they do absolutely nothing with it. In fact, 796 backtracks on the issue. In 797, the defense even morphs into "oh, we'd just rather lynch CoM" rather than "Oh, SnarkySnowman isn't scum".

There's more to the Imperium case than this, but this covers some of the main issues with them.

When did we drive an earlier jmo/snarky wagon?

How and when did the interest begin? How and when did we go elsewhere after driving the snarky/jmo wagon?

Because this is absolutely bullshit.

Page 32 is us trying to figure out if our scum read on snarky should be stronger based on other people claiming he's definitely scum. You'll have to actually explain how 796 is a backtrack. In that one game, from what I remember Snarky did a bunch of try-hard quote stripes and a reads list similar to here. If there's a takeaway I should have gotten from that game, you'll have to explain it. Since you're such a specialist in telling us apart, you should recognize that 796 is nacho and 797 is me. I think my mindset on why I was pushing who I was pushing is very clear. I think if you were actually town looking trying to solve the game, you'd recognize this, but you're not.

Also, all of our posts fell town btw. Town is my thing. It's where I shine. I can't not feel town when I'm town.

[Imperium]

That is so weird. That is a response to Ranger. I must have fucked up the quote tags when cutting it down, but it definitely isn't a response to 1380.

[Imperium]

I empathize with people not responding to questioning since the only people giving me substantial responses have been MagnaOfIllusion and Ranger. But I've still been posting trying to move the game forward. You and a bunch of others posting extremely sparsely is part of the reason this game stagnated. Several people have been posting and you haven't made any comments on their posts until your name was brought up. Stuff like Ranger replacing in, Radiant and Snarky tunneling each other, etc.

I started townreading you when you were pushing Nosferatu on D1. It was when you decided to ISO the entire game unprompted and post reads that that townread solidified. I find that town are much more likely to try and understand the game as a whole rather than push isolated reads without regard to the big picture.

I don't expect you to post "mega-amounts." I do expect you to post more than the bare minimum required to avoid being prodded. There is a difference between enthusiastically doing a great job and just barely meeting the requirements and your latest posting falls squarely into the latter. Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

You don't seem like you actually believe in your Lowell read. On the twentieth, you voted him. On the twenty-sixth, you justified your suspicion to Imperium when they questioned you. You are back today on the twenty-eighth responding to MagnaOfIllusion's accusation and asking why he didn't vote yet. If you were that confident in your read, I'd expect a stronger presence in the game, more engagement with people about Lowell, asking for our reads on Lowell, asking people for votes. You haven't done any of that. You just parked your vote there. Eight days in this day phase are up and we only have six more left. It seems like you are okay with time running out and then at deadline, you'd make a similar post to this and decide which of the lynch-wagons you are okay with. Rinse and repeat. I don't see your own mark being made on the game.

I'm not part of the reason this game stagnated, it stagnated & then I lost motivation. I remember refreshing the same page throughout one day with no new posts. So it's unfair to accuse me of that. It winds me up when people don't address my concerns about them, am I just gonna be a massive hypocrite & not do that myself? Also I want to be town read. I've gone into why before in this very game: The last game I played on here as town, & I've never been mislynched before, I'm proud of that. I considered it an advancement in my mafiascum town game that I was getting widely town read, has that made me complacent? Yeah. But I saw you & MoI as my two attack dogs, maybe I could have an easy town game this time round.

So what I was doing on day 1 was, skimming posts for mentions of me, pushing people from things I'd noticed, & then making scum lists by ISoing everyone. & those lists were keeping my interest & making me feel confident in my reads. The problem I've had with coming up with a new list is... Towards the end of day 1, Nos my strongest scum read started looking town, I just started thinking Bella was a terrible player, & the only scum read I had left was Lowell. It then seemed like a fuckin waste of time to do another til there was more to go on. I was struggling to get back into the game at the end of day 1 because of this (& the fact I wasn't scum reading any of the leading wagons). I looked at the 3 wagons to try & get into the game again as it worked with my lists. It's only now that I think it'll be worth ISOing everyone again, because I reckon I have 3 decent scum reads, one maybe, & two town reads. But I'll do a list tomorrow & make sure.

I'm more than happy to link you to a few posts doing that. I'll search for them tomorrow.

I mean I can't rip Lowell apart cos he's never around, but I've made an outstanding case against him. It's not like people's reactions haven't been informing my reads. Killthestory has picked up on it. He's obviously town. Imperium defending Lowell was probably town if obviously very misguided, too blatant a defence for them to be scum together, but that is a typical stance toward Lowell. Far too much indifference to overtly scummy behaviour. I'll respond to some of the rest of that at a later date cos... reasons. But as for you expecting a stronger presence in the game, I had a strong presence in the game, then Lowell buggered off, Snarky never responded to me when I was tryna get a handle on him vs Severa (RC) & the day got inactive as fuck. How strong is my presence gonna be if I've lost interest? You obviously weren't paying attention when I said that. My interest has a direct correlation with my presence.

This just felt really town. Like I read this so guileless.

[Imperium]

Okay I'm current now. I'm going to go make some dinner and then look back over some things. That will include your case on snarky, RC. But one thing I will point out that doesn't add to your case is that he's not doing anything and is just laying low. That is exactly the type of thing I've seen a town snarky mislynched for. I'm not saying it makes him town, it's just when you see someone behave that way as town it's hard to go oh this time it's scum. Ya know?

[Imperium]

Snarky - if you thought severa derailed a part of discussion (I'm guessing on Bella?) why didn't you engage in it? Why couldn't it have been reemphasized?

[Imperium]

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

[Imperium]

Are you talking to us, because you need to step off with your bullshit. Neither one of us has discredited you ever. I'm fucking reading through snarky's games right now AND fucking voting with you like we promised we would. I'm doing it because you have a strong scum read there and am giving your read a ton of consideration. So I have absolutely no idea where this hostility is coming from but direct it elsewhere k.

That does not mean I'm not going to try to figure out the game and try to figure out who all is scum.

[Imperium]

I completely understand getting discredited and feeling frustrated over it. I scumhunt people's interactions and their reads on me. Some people think all I do is omgus because I scumhunt scum reads on me. Never mind I town read far more people that scum read me than scum read them, and never mind that I scumhunt town reads I don't believe either. But I've literally had people tell me my scum read on scum I was scum reading before they scum read me was nothing but omgus and they let him win the game after he night killed me for being his only major threat.

I get it, but I do not think that nacho was discrediting you in that other game. I know he respects you as a player as nacho is perfectly happy to admit when he gets outplayed and when he's straight out caught as scum. I think if you look at the conversation without feeling like he's discrediting you you can see where he's coming from. He's not putting you down as a player at all.

As far as getting shit done. People have different personalities and different playstyles, it doesn't make one better than the other. I hate that we were wrong on com and I don't really appreciate it getting rubbed in my face. That might not be what you intended to do but it's what it felt like. I've never read abr wrong before, and though my day one reads might not be the greatest I have quite a good track record for reads especially after I reset, and nacho does too.

We're all here to play to win. If I'm asking people questions about snarky, asking snarky questions is because I am listening to you, but I also am trying to figure out everyone else. I am sorry if snarky flips scum and I didn't listen to you yesterday. It wasn't because I didn't value your read there, it was because I was certain on someone I've never read wrong.

Can we just all hug it out and try to kill each other with some nice kumbaya playing in the background?

[Imperium]

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

Huh, this was from my iPad. I imagine the last line meant to say a refusal to budge here.

[Imperium]

I also made the same exact argument concerning your knowledge of BB and that I believed you were an alt and that's how I was reading you and your reaction to your partner.

In Mafiaception, I did have meta on BBMolla: Blitz 2. I was scum, yes. I was exaggerating, yes. I was also not lying.

You ignore that I clearly said that you were displaying knowledge you wouldn't have as a new player to claim that I asked you to talk about ongoing games, which I never did.

Except yes you are. You're saying I have knowledge I wouldn't have as a new player. I gained that knowledge through ongoing games. So, by making the accusation that I gained it through other means, yes you were. Because the only way I can answer truthfully is to say that it comes from ongoing games.

That you actually tried to claim I was trying to get you modkilled shows how much reaching bullshit you're putting into the game.

Who's writing words onto me now? I never said you were trying to get me modkilled. I said that you were deliberately making an argument I could not defend against without breaking rules. (Which probably would not result in a modkill.) It's something I don't see you, or ANY town player, do as town, but it IS something I've seen scum do. Multiple times in fact! Scum have tried to force rulebreaking or punishment of rulebreaking which town do not.

Um not this is you continuing to be obtuse as you're trying to assign some deliberate nefariousness to something which isn't. Since, in another game, mafiaception, I've already pointed out the alt thing (as did multiple other people in that game) and that I was reading you as that alt and talking about how your approach and read was in relation to the alt thing, it's well established. I mentioned it in the post you responded to. You've acknowledged that people have pointed out that they believe you're an alt.

If you want to keep claiming you're not an alt, that's fine, but my intention was very obvious. All you had to say was "I'm not an alt, people think I am but I'm not. I've read some of his games and I think I understand what type of player type he is." Simple as that. It reads to me as you going overboard trying to cover up your slip and you trying to make me look scummy in the process.

By the way, I don't think of Red Coyote or Titus at all being player types similar to Magna. Like at all. Anyway this is not a productive line of discussion. Anyone could look at the conversation and see that I was talking about you being an alt not trying to get you to talk about ongoing games, and I think it's more productive if you try to actually discuss our scum motivations in what we did yesterday.

Point out that little stuff here and there why don't you?

The summary is already there in 1308. The little stuff all ties back to the SnarkySnowman issue. Most of your play revolves around SnarkySnowman's slot.

How is being noncommittal about a snowman lynch mean we're scum?

Yeah, this question really answers itself.

What do we gain out of it in the event he flips scum?

I don't know. (Skipping the next one since that takes time to show.)

How does Snarky make up a signficant majority of our iso?

Everything you're doing is basically going back to SnarkySnowman. Your interactions with me, your interactions with RadiantCowbells, your reads on other players, most of it revolves around SnarkySnowman.

Flesh this out please. Yesterday, I'd say the majority of our iso is about CoM as they were who we were trying to get lynched.

The question really doesn't answer for itself. We're voting Snarky while saying we're not sure about him but yeah he's probably scum. Other than the jmo stuff that we didn't like, we have absolutely no idea how to read Snarky. I read through his iso of a few games last night and I have no idea how to read him. (I think I might have a couple ideas based on partner interaction after looking at a scum game but without that I have no clue.) What are we doing? You think we're scum, what are we doing? What do we have to gain or lose?

My interactions with you over Snarky is because you're trying to claim we're scum for our treatment to him. Our interaction with RC about Snarky is because he has a very strong scum read there. Our reads on other players don't have anything to do with Snarky? I have him as a probable scum read due to his predecessor and am listening to RC there, but none of my other reads have anything to do with Snarky.

Well maybe a part of my read on you is due to Snarky but that's how you are trying to tie us to Snarky without seeing if it actually makes sense, so this just looks like hot air.

Try to answer the question.

I don't know. It's something I'd expect Nacho to do. I don't know his mind well enough to guess. Testing the waters. Thinking he can get away with it. I could go on all day figuring out potential reasons, but I wouldn't know which of them would apply or not.

What experience with Nacho has led you to believe that he would behave in this way on day one? Because as we've been in a state of disbelief over your accusations, he's been just as incredulous as I am. What games has he done this in? I mean if you're going to call us scum for this you have to be able to answer why you think we'd do this.

And before you keep just going oh I don't know he's nacho, you have to remember that we are in a hydra. Yes, Nacho will push limits, but to what we did yesterday? If partnered with Snarky? And the entire scum team is vanilla? I don't see it. But any type of recklessness that Nacho might have in his scum game would automatically be tempered in a hydra with me. And I'm the one who started hard pushing CoM yesterday, that was me. I'm the one who was about to flip a table if I didn't get my lynch, that was me. He was posting too and he was very clearly wanting it as well, but a large part of that was me.

That would mean that we considered the rest of our team mates expendable and would want to keep ourselves under the best light possible, which would mean not shooting ourselves in the foot day one.

And there's plenty of material where you call SnarkySnowman('s slot) suspicious and plenty of material where you call Lowell suspicious if I recall correctly, so if my scumteam theory is correct you could in fact get away with it interactions-wise.

No, Lowell's been a decentish town read for us. I did think of him as a potential busser for CoM, but Nacho had him as town and today I posted about why I thought he was town.

[Imperium]

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

Huh, this was from my iPad. I imagine the last line meant to say a refusal to budge here.

Imperium, talk to meere. I know I am nowhere near caught up, but I want my own interactions to sort with.

Do you think KTS is arrogant town or scum?

Why do you think ABR scumread you?

Why are you voting the jmo slot? It looks really town to me so far.

I have absolutely no idea on KTS. I do need to read through the games that Magna posted because I've never played with him before. Nacho thinks he looks fine, but Nacho also likes trolls so he might have a soft blindspot there.

I have no idea why ABR scumread us. At the time I thought it was because of an ongoing right now so can't say more, but we both have died and flipped so I can say more. I think if he actually started playing and interacted with me he'd have recognized I was town. I don't know if he has a hard time reading Nacho who was posting more at the start of the game though.

I never liked the jmo slot. I thought his thing about scum reading people for town reading people was really shallow and he didn't do anything with it except squawk about it. I also didn't like that he replaced out of this game (because he couldn't catch up here?) and then immediately inned for another game. That read as a scum replace out. Why does his slot look town to you? We're voting there in part because RC has a super strong scum read there and he helped us out yesterday.

[Imperium]

i could see an imperium and lowell scumteam if i truly think about it

since you know, imperium is hard defending lowell who is scummy as fuck

If Ranger flips scum, I'm going to change the names and spam this at you.

Why is lowell scummy as fuck?

[Imperium]

The only problems I find with Lowell are him town reading people I don't understand why he's town reading them for. For instance he said that he hard town read Snarky for a post because of tone but was too lazy to find it, while at the time Snarky had three posts.

But I think his play around CoM looks town because it's just so similar to the approach and feeling we had about CoM being scum and being disappointed that he was scum as well. So, we were both wrong, but.

[Imperium]

I think last year? or the year before?, I replaced into a pick your poison game that jmo was in. Nacho was scum in it. I looked back at that game earlier in day one to see if this was typical and while he did seem more involved than this game. But that's all the experience I have. There were no heightened emotions in this game for it to be considered toxic I don't think before he replaced out and that's not what he said. He said he would replace out if he didn't catch up. Then he replaced out and replaced in elsewhere.

pedit: Well sometimes ABR just completely dips out when scum. He gets demotivated by weak scum teams or drawing scum too many times and he had recently drawn scum. Klingon's play was utterly atrocious. I went back to our previous games together and she looked nothing like this as town. She looked scummy yes, but I have no idea what she was doing. Why wouldn't he let someone else head the hydra when he can barely stomach to post as scum?

[Imperium]

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them.

Ollie being ignorant on a first game is believable.

This is not. Tammy and Nacho both, 100%, absolutely

know

that I display this tendency in games. Of course, ongoing is ongoing, so let's use recently completed games.

Example one. Town.
Example two. Scum.
Example three. Serial killer.
Example four. Town.
Example five. Town.
Example six. Scum.
Subverted: example seven. Scum...where I did

not

do this. I put in five minutes worth of effort to fake it, then cruised the rest of the game.
Example eight. Town.

I think we can thoroughly establish this is a null tell for me.

Imperium saying otherwise when they, 100%, absolutely KNOW this is the case,

that

makes them scum.

UM I'm not exactly sure why you think linking games neither of us have been in is proof that we're scum because I think you writing numbers at the bottom with miminal minutes in between looks fake. This is more of a stretch than the I'm trying to get you to talk about ongoing games to get you to break the rules bs.

Are you really so egotistical that you think I hold in my head that you post numbers at the bottom of your reads list? Because if you actually do believe that then you should very super duper easily be able to answer why nacho would do something you're claiming he would do and does.

[Imperium]

Also Ranger if you really are reading Snarky as scum and you want it to be believed, you could actually say I don't know point out the stuff in the posts he's making in this game. You keep referencing ongoing games and how you can't talk about ongoing games and we can just wait for the ongoing game to end then you can give a clearer picture, but if something made him scum in one game, you should be able to translate that to THIS game without the use of that other game.

You know look at his posts. Point out the scum motivation there. Say why that post in particular is scummy.

What you are doing is absolute bullshit and you know it.

[Imperium]

I looked back and at posted my experiences with Klingon and she didn't behave the way she behaved here. My only experience with her as scum was HU2, which was multiball, but she was a hysterical mess from my memory of that game (I was too at certain points). In the other games we've played she got suspected, but her frustration was more like people should stop listening to the town leaders because they're leading us to a loss and another where she was just like you're wrong let's get this done, etc. What you said about Klingon scum is exactly what she became in this game. Everyone who was voting her was scum who was going to have a hard time explaining tomorrow. ABR was claiming scum, sarcastically then what looked like realistically, while klingon was doing whatever the fuck she was doing. I've never WOTC'd before, but I will probably be WOTCing her in any games she signs up for if I'm already in them if this is actually how she plays. I've never witnessed a more atrocious town play and I've seen some pretty bad ones.

I probably really don't want to talk about their slot anymore as I think we pretty well indicated our scum read there and thinking about her play is just making me mad that she played that way and I'd prefer to talk about people who are living and might be scum.

[Imperium]

No barely-competent player would do what Ranger is accusing Imperium of doing.

Except, 100%, Nacho

has

.

Where?

[Imperium]

@Imperium, I agree. That's why my question was, what does Klingon being a universal scumread tell us about the other slots in the game? We know everyone posting was wrong. Why was Klingon lynched with no counter wagon?

Well the jmo/Snarky slot became a counter wagon that we shut down. I haven't looked at how the votes played out and what wagons were throughout the day because it's just not my first impetus to. I do want to reread day one though and am hoping to do that today.

[Imperium]

When did we drive an earlier jmo/snarky wagon?

That

I can find quickly. 215 is strong. 349 was another strong push. 352 is another one. 461 furthers the push. In 477, your question asking why Killthestory has him as town carries the implication of you having the opposite, which fits with the above.

You were calling for support there.

At the time, it did not materialize.

When it did, you backed off.

This doesn't make any sense. You say that the majority of our iso is about snarky, so apparently we didn't back off. Do you or do you not agree that Snarky is mislynch bait? But part of this goes back to the thing that you're refusing to look at. Does it look like we did not believe out CoM scum read? We made very clear that CoM was our top scum read, our top priority, and that Snarky was a very distant second.

You make reads lists, so would you agree or not that some reads are stronger than others?

How and when did the interest begin?

I'd have to manually reread the thread to answer this. Some time after RC-as-Severa was in the game, some time after SnarkySnowman was actually in the game, somewhere around where he gave his shallow reads without reasons. People saw it as scummy, and interest grew. Immediately after this, you went all-out on ChurchOfMercy.

How and when did we go elsewhere after driving the snarky/jmo wagon?

Technically I don't think your vote ever left ChurchOfMercy, but, while voting CoM, you were not pushing them above all others at the time. You were doing the above, with jmo's slot. Then after SnarkySnowman came in, you suddenly abandoned all other efforts to push that one wagon through above all others.

We pushed our top scum read. Do you think this is out of the realm for what Nacho and I would do as town?

[Imperium]

Virtue - I'm not really good with following catch ups like that so I probably missed a bunch, but I don't think Lowell saying that magna was annoying was undercutting his townread there. Some people find Magna's style annoying. I mean I think most people find someone annoying, and you can town read someone and be annoyed with them and maybe be annoyed that they're town so you can't push them or lynch them, you know?

Since you've already disclosed that you're an alt, have we played together? You're kinda talking to me as if we have.

My problems with Lowell day one was I could see him as bussing CoM, that was wrong and Nacho thought that he'd do it with more gusto if he was going to anyway. The other is the town reads he's given that I don't really understand, which I've mentioned before. Post 1177 is my most recent thought on him. Also this is going to sound really stupid but I've been drinking mimosas while reading so

Jesus, town-KTS is a nightmare. WTF. I'm scum?? Not close, dude, damn.

I don't know why I liked that post, I just really did.

[Imperium]

What is your read on Lowell then?

[Imperium]

And bella just joined another game. Granted it's a bit after, but will people stop replacing out of one game cuz busy and pretty damn soon after signing up for another?

[Imperium]

And bella just joined another game. Granted it's a bit after, but will people stop replacing out of one game cuz busy and pretty damn soon after signing up for another?

Agreed that it needs to stop, but this environment isn't that fast? Are people getting into draining 1 v 1s? Something has to be causing this.

There has been some tension, but nothing overwhelmingly terrible.

I know townies do it too, it just messes with my head when a game isn't moving terribly fast and they can't keep up or real life is moving too fast and they replace out to in to a game immediately or very soon after.

Nacho and I were town reading bella, and I think she sometimes gets overwhelmed when she has suspicion on her for reasons she can't understand and so she sometimes fades out. Nacho and I were trying to give her support because I think that when she has that she's more likely to push more and be more aggressive. We were hoping to be her support today to help her get into the game and solidify our read on her and give her space, if my assumption about her is true, but she replaced out. I know it's not a scumtell for her specifically though as I've replaced into her slot as town before, but it still messes with my head.

[Imperium]

That would defeat the purpose of an alt.

I have some questions to you above. If you're reading, mind answering them?

What about Ranger looks like regular town? You're not bothered by

anything

???

Do her reads lists look just fine to you? As they are?

oops

[Imperium]

Snarky - if you thought severa derailed a part of discussion (I'm guessing on Bella?) why didn't you engage in it? Why couldn't it have been reemphasized?

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

Snarky why is this derailing kts?

Kts was/is acting like he's gods gift to the game.

There was no derailing but a refusal to bus here.

snarky

So they're easy for you to find and don't get lost in your deep deep reading of the game.

[Imperium]

Magna - nacho will get his butt in here today

The current line of defense from snarky is silly. Everybody here has access to current games along with their flips and playerlists. And completed or uncompleted anyone can read those games and use them to inform their read on a player and how they act as scum or town, even if we can't talk about the ongoing ones. For the record, I didn't find anything that greatly distinguishes his scum/town game and a couple times I thought I found a smoking gun I found a town game he did it too. So who knows.

[Imperium]

I'm here to answer a question and then skip off into the sunset again!

MoI - I townread RC revealing his alt to us in the way that he did because his early play was lazy and lurky and he very easily could have gotten away with it as scum if people didn't know who he was. Revealing himself to us exposed him to higher expectations of his play, which doesn't make sense from a him-scum perspective unless he was looking for a challenge. I also thought that him revealing his alt in order to talk about some meta concerns was a pretty townish reason to reveal an alt.

[Imperium]

This head is really super busy right now. I've got three shows this weekend, finals week is next week and I have a ton of grading to finish and prepare for summer school, Chicago Meet and my mom visiting which all follow the next week. We won't need to go v/la as a whole, except for Chicago Meet probably which affects Nacho too. I will be around, just here and there as I have time and/or am taking breaks from grading and cleaning.

I only got to page three on my reread of day one and I want to get that done too in the meantime. I don't understand the night kills and there are a few things I want to think out. I've sort of briefly skimmed the day posts, and Virtue is at least right about one thing, and that's that we need to do a hard reset. I know there are other questions/comments out to us and I'll get to them as I catch up properly on the end of day yesterday and today.

[Imperium]

So, one of our games ended last night which frees up some of our mafia time. I'll probably fall asleep soon, but I'm going to try to at least catch up on yesterday and today before I do.

[Imperium]

I was a vanilla townie. Fuck you guys. RC is scum, OceanWind is scum, and one of Virtue / Masq is scum. Imperium is probably town.

You know what - if you were town, the one thing that would have been great was for you to actually play the game, explain your reads, and communicate with people. You ignored around three-quarters of the questions directed at you, you popped in from time to time with random useless comments like how often you get mislynched, you were like a stone wall that could not be penetrated or understood. I have no idea what drives you to play that way. You weren't a player in the game, you were a troll that somehow found your way into a mafia forum to get yourself tangled up in a game. All you needed to do was read the thread, and answer the questions that people were asking, and say why you had the reads you did. This isn't even a case of a new player trying to learn the ropes, this was a case of you being absolutely a hindrance to anyone trying to scumhunt. And it doesn't matter one bit if Radiant is actually mafia - that doesn't "redeem" you in my eyes because you went about it in the worst possible way, and that's coming from someone more than a little annoyed at Radiant's play this game.

In night I pointed out this post to nacho with a high five because really can the fucking town in this game please bother playing like town.

Later posts and the night kill have me not high fiving him so much though. /

[Imperium]

MagnaOfIllusion is the player I most want to look at. Out of everyone's play around the Snarky wagon, his was the most strategic. He spent the entirety of the day going after Killthestory for stuff I don't understand and can't relate to. While he did make some valid points about Snarky being a weak player,

that seems very unlike Magna to give someone a pass for being weak.

He most certainly didn't give a pass to ChurchOfMercy or Killthestory, both of whom he picked on for things that could come from both mafia and weak town. He also doesn't strike me as the type of player to forgive mistakes of inconsistencies. Yet, despite the most ridiculous display from SnarkySnowman, MagnaOfIllusion was careful to stay away from the wagon. When his Killthestory push didn't kick off, he tried to get a wagon going on Ranger but never questioned me this morning after I switched back to Snarky while providing no reasons why. It's also very odd that he townread both jmo16mla and Snarky both of whom have the type of playstyles I'd expect Magna to pounce on based on how he went after Church/Killthestory for how inconsistent and useless they were being. I think this also had the ulterior motive of putting him in a better light than RadiantCowbells which is important considering they both dislike each other.

Why does it seem odd to you, player who has never played with magna before, to think it seems very unlike him to give a pass to someone for being weak?

okay so I got a little ahead of myself and you do explain it a little, but he's also offered quite a pass to lowell, why aren't you mentioning that?

But can you explain why he would go after CoM for the same thing, try to get a lynch on KTS for the same thing, but excuse Snarky? That's where you're losing me.

[Imperium]

I don't think Ranger's description of Snarky's play is very accurate either. If you look at Snarky's wiki and skim his first newbie game, you'll see that he made a lot of big analytical posts there so it's certainly not something he would only do as mafia so the extreme confidence I don't like.

I'm pondering your magna stuff and will respond later.

But, why do you wait until Snarky has been lynched to reveal this meta read you've done on him???

[Imperium]

I also have to look back on Imperium. They're in my "town but with a some questionable actions" category. a) I don't understand the townread on MagnaOfIllusion at all and the immense confidence in it would like it explained if you guys show up before the thread locks. b) Their reasoning for voting Snarky essentially amounted to a deal with RadiantCowbells that they'll vote him if he votes ChurchOfMercy and I just don't think that's pro-town. For a while, I didn't think they were actually seriously going to follow through with it but they did which is surprising.

A) Magna
1) Why don't you have a town read on Magna?
2) Why did you want it explained before the thread locked???
3) Quite frankly, at this moment the only reason I have concern about magna is because you keep asking and I think you could be partnered.

B) Snarky
1) Did you not notice that ever since day one we had Snarky as our second scum read?
2) We've had our vote on Snarky for quite a long time, did you ask about it before now? If not, why not?
3) Did our scum read on Snarky confuse you in any way? Was our reasoning anti-town?
4) Why did you vote Snarky?
5) Is there something wrong with listening to someone else who had a strong read who listened to us when we had a strong read?

C) Miscellaneous

1) Did you or did you not argue with Ranger about how her accusations made no sense if we were competent players?
2) Why are you casting such a wide ass net?

[Imperium]

Killthestory is another one in the same category. The read changes and the enthusiasm I read as town but that hammer without a claim from someone that he said he was townreading was pretty bad. The problem with this game is there are so many people doing anti-town things (Killthestory, ChurchOfMercy, SnarkySnowman) or lurking that's hard to effectively zone in on the mafia. Hopefully, masquerade, Virtue, and massive give us a lot to read them by.

Just so you know, that read you just gave kts - the enthusiasm - is a tonal read.

[Imperium]

The most striking thing about her townplay was that immediately upon replacing in, she suspected a strong player that hadn't received much suspicion before and aggressively went after them.

And in

what

realm is going after

Imperium

not qualify as doing this?

I was thinking about this as well. I don't think you ever seriously intended to go after them. I think you wanted them to townread you upon Snarky's townflip because the entirety of your read on them is based on Snarky flipping mafia. It's almost as if you "knew" Snarky was mafia so when he's town, that would absolve you. It also absolves from having to push Imperium anymore since you no longer have any reason to. They weren't protecting a partner after all.

I did a similar thing in my first newbie game. I bussed my partner (GoodMorning) while saying that if she flipped town, a townie (Ether) was likely the culprit setting me up, and repeated this many times. After GoodMorning flipped mafia, Ether strongly townread me.

You know snarky hadn't flipped yet here, he could totally have been trolling, but you feel 100% confident on calling him town here. And why do you think we'd call Ranger town based on her read on us due to Snarky???

[Imperium]

VOTE: Nosferatu

Let's fight this out.

T: Imp, Ranger,Ocean, Magna, Ollie

why do you have Ranger and Ocean as town?

[Imperium]

VOTE: Nosferatu

Let's fight this out.

T: Imp, Ranger,Ocean, Magna, Ollie

why do you have Ranger and Ocean as town?

wait whoa whoa whoa aren't you the one who said we've been buddied and need a hard reset? what did you mean by that? And why do you have the people who I was assuming you were claiming were buddying us and we needed to reset about us as town???

[Imperium]

At the moment I'm not calling anyone anything until I reread the game.

[Imperium]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

SnarkySnowman was scum in Diffusion of Power. I link to a post which I made as a summary of the game. Read it. I said, very specifically, SnarkySnowman was a scummy scumperson D1. Now, read RC's post.

VOTE: Ranger

Funny thing about this explanation – when you kept harping on how you knew Snarky was scum that couldn’t be explained this is the first game I came across with Snarky as flipped scum. I read his ISO and the conclusion I came to was “Whelp that doesn’t read like Snarky here at all”. Everyone else is free to follow the links and judge for themselves but Snarky’s ISO from that game shows much more verbosity and interaction (starting around ISO 9 is where it diverges visibly to me). In fact Post 396 / ISO 18 is such a radially different post than anything SS provided this game I can’t believe Ranger’s stance. 397 / ISO 19 the same – Snarky actually parses more than one person on his wagon.

I said I was reading snarky's games, why didn't you interact with me about that?

(Also, really would like that game to flip. I know how I would have voted based on outside of that game talk and would like to know if I would have been right - I'd have hammered Ranger btw)

[Imperium]

oh except i'm still town reading lowell's slot.

[Imperium]

How am I supposed to VCA if we don't have scumflip

barely anyone even knows how to do vca in the first place. You could, alternatively, scum hunt.

[Imperium]

So lowell who as far as I can tell replaced out of the last scum game he rolled isn't as involved or as scum hunty as the last game I read, didn't replace out of here but offered to stay in this game when he was force replaced as a hydra. I still think his reaction to ABR looking scummy matched mine and feel natural.

I'll review this on my reread this week, but this is one I like.

[Imperium]

Oh. Okay. Would have been nice to get a notice to that effect of some type.

That would have been nice idd.
About your hydra-question: do you mean for here? I don't know what the rules about that are, I never hydra'd before. But if the mod allows it I'm ok with finishing this game together.

It's completely up to the mod. Some mods allow it, some don't.

[Imperium]

Virtue why the change from Masquerade to Nos?

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

When I came in, that wasn't the time to force a vote for sorting or contribution. The Lowell slot was still scummy as well and I could get behind it given the circumstances.

What's the deal with Ranger? I think that Imperium has been buddied to the point where they need a hard reset. I don't like the perpetual jumping in this game so haphazardly at the start, hyper confident and then wrong. This strongly suggests scum are aggressive and drowning out contrary opinions. I strongly don't think Ranger is scum based on game state.

Who does this suggest scum is?

[Imperium]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Can you decide what avenue you're going to push our snarky vote from? Either we sheeped RC, or we were trying to figure out his alignment, or we're sheeping RC.

And why the hell wasn't this an issue for you yesterday when we were voting snarky?????????????????????????

[Imperium]

Gods seriously if you're going to sign up as an alt, fucking play as an alt. Being all like oh "I know x player does y' is shit and you should not do that. If you're going to act with your knowledge, just freaking play as yourself.

[Imperium]

I also have to look back on Imperium. They're in my "town but with a some questionable actions" category. a) I don't understand the townread on MagnaOfIllusion at all and the immense confidence in it would like it explained if you guys show up before the thread locks. b) Their reasoning for voting Snarky essentially amounted to a deal with RadiantCowbells that they'll vote him if he votes ChurchOfMercy and I just don't think that's pro-town. For a while, I didn't think they were actually seriously going to follow through with it but they did which is surprising.

A) Magna
1) Why don't you have a town read on Magna?
2) Why did you want it explained before the thread locked???
3) Quite frankly, at this moment the only reason I have concern about magna is because you keep asking and I think you could be partnered.

B) Snarky
1) Did you not notice that ever since day one we had Snarky as our second scum read?
2) We've had our vote on Snarky for quite a long time, did you ask about it before now? If not, why not?
3) Did our scum read on Snarky confuse you in any way? Was our reasoning anti-town?
4) Why did you vote Snarky?
5) Is there something wrong with listening to someone else who had a strong read who listened to us when we had a strong read?

C) Miscellaneous

1) Did you or did you not argue with Ranger about how her accusations made no sense if we were competent players?
2) Why are you casting such a wide ass net?

A) Read the thread. I feel like I'm repeating myself constantly. My post where I express suspicion of Magna is only a few posts above the one you quoted. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine - what was the basis for your townread on Magna?

B) You did have Snarky as a second scumread D1 but based on your posts towards Ranger, you seemed a lot more confident there. I'd have expected you to switch to Ranger when Magna, I, and Ollie kickstarted a wagon there but you never reacted to that which I found odd because Ranger was your primary focus of suspicion.

I voted Snarky because Ranger's ATE made me second-guess my read a bit to the point I found Ranger and Snarky equally suspicious. But Ranger was answering questions and making a sincere effort to play the game while Snarky was ignoring everything directed at him. I felt that there was no way I could get a better read on Snarky but that if I talked to Ranger more and saw her play for a longer time, I may be able to deduce her alignment with more confidence. On the off-chance I was wrong, I'd have much preferred Ranger being alive later in the game than Snarky, and with my suspicion on both of them being roughly equal, I thought a Snarky lynch would be more useful.

Firstly, I don't think way you and Radiant have played the first two days is optimal play. You are not the only two players in the game so the you-scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours fails to take into account that lynches are decided by the town as a whole. Secondly, you started the day saying that you suspected Radiant and agreed with my case. Then apparently something made you second guess on Radiant (you never said what this was), and then you turned around and helped Radiant with his lynch. You didn't at any point state a townread on Radiant, simply saying that you don't know anymore.

C) I stand by my comments that a you-Snarky partnership doesn't make sense and I think Ranger's suggestion of that was a shallow read. I do think a you-Magna partnership makes sense as does a partnership between you and Ranger.

A) You didn't answer my question on Magna. If it's so easy, quote it? It's really super easy to link to the posts. So, do that?

B) I did feel more confident in a Ranger scum read. In fact, Nacho's first response upon an RC kill was it was a Ranger kill.

Can you please point out what Ranger ATE made you change your vote from Ranger to Snarky???

(I'll save you the effort. You changed your vote to Snarky when Snarky said that we should lynch someone other than Ranger. Just so you know, that is anti-town and actually scummy because according to your player type there's no reason why you should vote someone from an emotional response from a player like Snarky.)

You're free to re-rationalize that.

The rest of this is mumbo jumbo bullshit that you, as a super serious rational player cannot be serious about.

Yeah, in night we had a theory we decided was wrong when RC started posting day two. His posting changed that. I don't get your point? He was town, or did you forget that? We were right to second guess our over night theory. Oh wait, isn't killthestory town for his read changes? Why do you have a problem with ours?

I never said we were the only two people in town and two people voting on one lynch doesn't make things happen. I'd like you to elaborate on this point a bit, could you please?

C) I've love to see that case. Bring it boy.

[Imperium]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Can you decide what avenue you're going to push our snarky vote from? Either we sheeped RC, or we were trying to figure out his alignment, or we're sheeping RC.

And why the hell wasn't this an issue for you yesterday when we were voting snarky?????????????????????????

You misunderstood the intent of the question. I was accusing Magna of treating you and me inconsistently, not making a statement about your vote.

So then do you or do you not have a problem with our snarky vote? And if yes, how come this wasn't a problem yesterday???

[Imperium]

The 'for now' is key. It hints to how I will reevaluate my read on Virtue in case I'm wrong about Massive. But I happen to know Acryon does not PL as town and here he started out suggesting a PL on kain. And nobody has responded to that yet so I might need to put in more power in my statement.

VOTE: massive

I will get to in-depth reads later, most likely will not finish them this weekend because busy with mother's day as well (lots of prepping).

You know you get to elaborate on this acryon and not pling thing as town right?

[Imperium]

Wait ocean wind - did you or did you not argue that if we're halfway decent competent players then it would be odd for us to be scum partners with snarky due to the way the suspicion played our but you're arguing that we're scum with ranger for a very similar thing. Am I getting that right???

Are we competent or are we idiots. I'd like you to keep your story straight.

Also, if kts is town he's the one being buddied I think.

[Imperium]

I'm good. Probably tired, but yeah re-explain or link to the posts where you already answered and I missed it.

[Imperium]

Oh radiant cowbells was obviously vt; I have no clue why he died. Nacho thinks it's a ranger kill.

I think its pretty obvious I'm reevaluating everything at the moment. And I do think Magna is more likely to be town, why do you not???, but I'm also reevaluating everything right now. There's no we're saying we know each other from back then, you can easily meta 2012 all of us to see that I played in the majority of our games together, well mine at least.

As far as reading me goes, I'm an easy read, like seriously I'm a super easy read. Nacho's a whole other story. If I'm taking the lead in a hydra to the extent I have, we're town. I'm the one who pushed that CoM read; if that kind of push comes from me, I'm town. It really is that simple.

One of my biggest weaknesses is that if someone else has a strong read and believes in it, I listen. RC listened when I wanted him to; I listened when he wants me to. If I thought for one second Snarky was town and I'd found anything to identify that, I'd have spoken out, but I didn't.

I have concerns on almost everyone right now for a variety of reasons, and as i reread the game I'll get through them.

[Imperium]

Hi Titus! You don't have to sub out. Still sorry I haven't responded to your email. I'm super behind on life right now.

OW - I did answer your question, you just didn't like it. I'm not going to really talk about reads until I reread the game. I've already talked about Magna. This just hasn't felt like his scum game. Ranger was right about magna and him having that aha feeling. That fits in more like his town game. You can save your why and where question follow up. RC's frustration and the way he reacted to the suspicion on him read more town, along with his self meta. As did him complaining that we were posting in another game and not here (which incidentally is where we started suspecting his slot in that other game). It was frustrating for that as people were getting after us for quick hammering scum after asking the night before for the game to give them time to come back and claim. They fake claimed doctor and we quick hammered (we were the doc). I don't know if RC was keeping up with the game after he replaced out, but he knew we were town in that game. Therefore him getting antsy that we were posting in that game over a matter of hours and not here while annoying looked more like town impatience, especially if he was scum in that game and knew we were posting in a town game first.

I drank too much last night and now have a monster headache. I'm going to try to start rereading today.

Nacho hasn't been posting in this game because I'm selfish. He does like this playerlist, but we've both been really busy in real life and we got ourselves overloaded in games. We were hydraing in more than one game and Gumball was annoying me, so I asked if I could take this game to post in and he could take that game. We keep current in each of the games as we talk regularly, but it saves us time this way. I imagine he'll be back and posting when he's caught up with his other games or if I need him to do something in particular, but until that happens, you've got me. (Which to anyone even moderately familiar with either one of us should clear up any doubts about our alignment. I can't imagine a world where I ask to take the lead in a scum game when there's a town game I could have taken the lead in. Although that should also already be clear from the way I pushed CoM, so.)

[Imperium]

Nos is someone I want to look back at. I asked Nacho the other day what his current thoughts about her were and he said fine, but we'll see when I get through the game.

Yeah, I mean pm. I call pms emails. Sorry.

[Imperium]

Oh now that Cyberpunk has ended, Titus one of the reasons I didn't like CoM early on was because he felt like he was doing the same thing he did to me in that game with throwing soft suspicion my way. Like in Cyberpunk when DGB called me town, he responded with something like I was a good player so she shouldn't town read me that soon. (It was where I first started suspecting your slot btw because it didn't feel right.) ABR said he hadn't read our posts yet and mentioned us being good players then had us as a gut scum read but didn't actually push us or interact with us about it. Since he had just drawn scum in Cyberpunk and recently been lynched, I thought his demeanor here reflected his resignation to drawing yet another scum role so soon.

OW - Nacho will get here when he gets here. You're just going to have to deal with that. As far as people answering your questions, not to be rude or anything but you kind of oversaturate the game with questions. Now normally I think asking questions is a good thing but you want everyone to be as robotic as you are and we aren't. It's actually somewhat becoming partly a distraction and I think is hindering the process of the game. I told you more than once I wasn't going to give reads on people before I reread and reevaluated the game yet you asked me for my magna town read more than once. This conversation you're having with nosferatu is going nowhere yet you're badgering her to answer your way. In the event she's town, you're just going to make her dig her heels in about her reads and if she has a wrong read will probably keep her from reassessing. Sometimes watching how things play out is a good thing. If you're town, I get that you want to figure out the game and maybe you're just lacking direction or focus, I don't know. But the way that you're approaching the game is confusing to me. Like you literally defended us yesterday from an accusation that you are today accusing us for. I don't know why you can't find any town reads this game. I don't know why you're coming up with the scenarios you are. You keep making assumptions about us as players and if you don't know us I don't know why you think we would do things the way you're saying we would or should do them. But in many instances I don't feel like you're actually reading what people say.

When I said that about my CoM push day one, I said the *way* I pushed it. Key word there. But you don't read that part, you just go oh everyone has to push mislynches day one as town, ignoring what was actually said because it was more important to you to refute what I said than actually process it. Xis gave a meta read on me day one that was spot on. Of course I have to push mislynches as scum. I didn't say one didn't. I hate scum. My scum game sucks precisely for one reason. I have a hard time pushing mislynches on people when I know they're mislynches. I'm not completely incompetent and I've come a long way over the years, but I still have a hard time pushing mislynches, especially on people I play with often or like in particular. ABR respects my town game and has told me as much recently; therefore a scum me wouldn't be pushing their lynch as hard and relentlessly as I did. Scum me doesn't get mad that a mislynch is slipping by for another mislynch I could just easily get the next day. Maybe one day, but not today. But I've talked about this to Ranger I'm pretty sure.

pedit: I didn't follow that game Ranger, so I don't know how you played. I only would have hammered you based on things said by players dead in that game who were obviously referencing that game.

[Imperium]

OW - This is just another indication of you not actually reading what I've said, and that bothers me especially when you're touting yourself as a rational player. I read your paranoia as fake. I don't think that you're actually having that difficult of a time finding a town read. Trying to divide my hydra by insulting me and praising nacho is scummy. You feel like you're putting on a show in trying to figure out the game rather than actually figuring out the game. I've felt like that since early game with your interaction with Lowell and you making a show of doing iso's on like page four of the game. I've been in part watching you in case this is just your play style and in part because you remind me so damn much of a player that was permanently banned from this site for his harassment of me that I'm allowing for the possibility that that is coloring my read of you. (Just so you know, if I were scum you would be dead for this very reason. I feel like I've been quite diplomatic and straight forward with you, but you have a rather condescending tone that prevents an actual conversation from taking place.) My talking about the way that you are interacting with Nosferatu isn't preventing her from answering you. She was responding to you. Do you think it was productive? It didn't look productive from where I'm sitting. Maybe, just maybe if you changed your approach, you'd get better results.

But where you're not actually reading is where it's the most concerning. Take your recent wall about Lowell. I never called Lowell a "strong town read" so I don't know where you're getting that interpretation. Especially since I literally said my reasoning was not a smoking gun for him being town but there were posts I liked. I also pointed out things I didn't like, namely his strong town reads on snarky and alone. I talked about what I saw in meta reading him, said he was someone I liked, but that he was, like everyone else someone I was going to reevaluate upon my reread. (And now that diffusion of power is over, I can say that in that game he was a little more active but not really super active, he did put more effort in some of his reads, but he also had strong town reads for little to no reason and he said that he works from town reads mostly.)

Why would we town read you for suspecting ABR in that instance? Have you played with ABR? Do you enjoy playing with ABR? (I know the answer is no because you just said that you had followed a couple games of his.) Lowell looked happy to be playing with ABR and had expressed a connection with him in the early game. Therefore he has experience with him. When you enjoy playing with people and you are town you usually want them to be town which is why his post about being sad that ABR was probably scum rang true for me. That recognition of Damn someone I enjoy playing with and hates scum is probably scum was how I felt when I realized he was probably scum.

So, no I'm not going to town read you for scum reading ABR when what I liked about the post had nothing to do with the scum read in and of itself, but the expression of disappointment that he had drawn scum.

[Imperium]

Ow - I did answer your magna question. This is not his scum game. You just don't like the answer because even though you just said that thing about different play styles what you really want is answers like you would give them. I have already told you to meta us if you don't like the answer and from there feel free to tell me where I'm going wrong. I have talked about my read, and I told you ranger's assessment of aha was correct. Lol if you think I'm so incompetent I can't make up reasons for a read.

I'm not having a hard time finding town reads. My wanting to reevaluate and reset is to make sure I'm not going wrong anywhere, especially on my town reads. Not that I would give you anymore on the magna read in the first place, but I'm trying to reset fresh not reconfirm any biases I have. Our two strongest scum reads flipped town, and the night kills make absolutely no sense to me. That warrants a reset. Deal with it.

We are fucking town and are not giving fake reads and you wouldn't know it if we were anyway. You did say I had a strong town read in that Lowell read and Lowell was on my mind because Ollie had made that case on Lowell that I had responded to and then I went for a search of him as scum, didn't find one except the one he replaced out of.

I feel like you are arguing just to argue. Like I literally just told you that your similarity to the banned player might be coloring my read of you and told you earlier that I thought you were him and that was why I interacted with you the way I did. Maybe you are not him, and if not maybe it's unfair of me to have my back up with regards to you, but I am doing my best when your playstyles are so fucking similar and I can't be sure you're not him.

I feel like you read what I say but don't read what I say, and that's super frustrating. I wasn't telling you to change your playstyle and everyone can improve their game, but your badgering and not taking the answers that people give you is not productive, is distractive, and not conducive to getting what you want. Maybe if you let people breathe or accepted the answer they gave you and understood that not everyone is like you and badgering people to conform to your way, you might end up getting what you want. You are not the only person playing this game and you are not the only person trying to get reads, but you act like this is captain oceans game. If you want to be the town leader and get people to interact with you in a way you would like, try not talking down to people, treating them with respect and taking the answers they give you even if it doesn't meet your criteria for big walls of text. This game is in large part a social game. If you want people to listen to you and interact with you productively you should remember that.

We are not pushing a suspect today (top one is still ranger) because I am rereading and resetting. Our two top suspects flipped town, this is warranted. I feel like anyone with any modicum of experience would understand that. Snarky was still a suspect yesterday and if it looked like my ranger read was more sure, probably kind of was, that's mostly because ranger was actually interacting with me while snarky was ignoring my questions. One of my problems with you is that you do feel like you're trying to create a narrative of the game rather than try to understand the players in the game. You keep getting after us about voting snarky, but it's like you completely forget the context of day one. Day one we pushed com hard and derailed the snarky lynch. Com flipped town. That rocked this game for us. If I had thought snarky was town, I'd have tried to do something else, but I couldn't confidently say that snarky was town, and I couldn't bring myself to derail the wagon again and then have snarky flip scum. But I've already talked about how com's town flip affected me, and again you don't take anything I say into consideration, you just create some other narrative that's not even close to correct. If people are town reading us it's because we are town, and I'm a super easy read.

Heading out so I'll get back to this later.

Magna - I find both suspicious, but I'm rereading the game do I'll get to that later. I don't know how to read blatant trolls. Nacho thinks he's fine but nacho loves trolls and is amused by how committed he is to his troll persona, so his read there is colored by that. Oh gotta go. I'll pick up from here later.

[Imperium]

SUCK IT!!!!!!!

[Imperium]

You are falcon aren't you?

[Imperium]

Prod dodge. I'm sorry this week is killing me.

Hi Rach!

I suck at reading Rach and think she's scum in every game we've played, but Nacho is really good at reading her, so there's hope we'll get a correct read.

I'm still working on my reread but it's going really slow. As soon as I get grades turned in for the semester, I'll be able to keep up a bit better even though we will be going to chicago meet.

[Imperium]

mod - we are v/la until the 22nd

Chicago meet and family visiting. Nacho head will have more time than I will and I will still be posting (and probably more than this week from hell).

[Imperium]

I realize that we only have threw days left and I will probably not be able to do anything revolutionary before end of day but I'll try to at least be alive and poking at things.

[Imperium]

Vote: Ollie

Masquerade's recent posting seems fairly genuine and I feel absolutely terrible about voting her.

[Imperium]

The fourth, Titus, was because Titus is playing her scum game, and I knew it was her even when she was Virtue.

This seems like a pretty easy way to push Titus, but not a particularly convincing one. Why aren't you voting her?

[Imperium]

Pretty sure I haven't called the massive slot scum. That's a slot I need to confirm is town.

I'm down. It would help me to get an idea where you are coming from too, because I'm not anywhere near confident of you being scum like some of the others seem to be. What can I answer that would be helpful?

What are your reasons for voting Masq?

[Imperium]

I happen to think your slot is scum for the things you've done (rather, the lack of things done) and what your predecessor did (rather, lack of things he did)

This implies that the case on this slot is "hasn't done Jack shit", which is not a particularly compelling case to me.

[Imperium]

now I feel really bad about doing that because I want you to get off my back because I posted something towny, not something personal.

This reads pretty genuine.

[Imperium]

I'm feeling Masq more like an entrapped animal rather than a desperate townie trying to make others see reason.

Townies are not really always calm in rational in the face of a push. I don't find your "Lowell hated me in one game but was cool with me this game" as a particularly compelling reason; people's moods change and Lowell scumreading you and disliking your play in one game doesn't mean that will always be his response to you if he's town.

[Imperium]

I can't help but feel that vote count is incorrect unless Magna lost his vote or something.

[Imperium]

I am assuming that's a joke. Why should I vote Masq over Nos or Ocean? At this point, I want a leader.

What is your read on Ranger who thinks that this is exactly your scumgame? Why vote Nos or Ocean?

[Imperium]

Unless someone can stop the kill (don't say anything!) then we might have some more breathing room.

Nice soft fish for the known jailkeeper and doctor. It's an open setup for crying out loud.[/quote]
What?
Do you think that she expected a doctor or a jailkeeper to go "I can stop kills! We have breathing room!" or do you think maybe she's not completely insane?

[Imperium]

You say my play this game isn't typical of my normal play, which I have myself admitted. You say you've never seen me play this way before, and I point out you have. After that, you say that game wasn't typical of my normal play so you discarded it. You can't have your cake and eat it too; which is it?

This is a fine point if everything checks out.

[Imperium]

Not in a "oh masq is scum" kind of way though.

[Imperium]

You say my play this game isn't typical of my normal play, which I have myself admitted. You say you've never seen me play this way before, and I point out you have. After that, you say that game wasn't typical of my normal play so you discarded it. You can't have your cake and eat it too; which is it?

Unfortunately, doesn't actually check out.

Masquerade said that she has never seen you this disengaged before. You said that the first game she played with you was a game where you were similarly this disengaged. Her counter was that the game was abnormally short, meaning that it was possible that you were disengaged simply because the game was short and full of modkills. This game is not short. This game is not full of modkills. Her response was a valid one, but you pretended like it was something else entirely. Why?

[Imperium]

which I had no reason to do at the time

The thread said it was day 2. You weren't curious who died overnight?

Vote: Ranger

[Imperium]

This is MYLO so pretty damn sure my scum reads on kill and Rach are spot on given this power wagon attempt.

I cannot see any world where Ranger quickhammers the day before LyLo because she is getting lynched as town. I understand why you want to slow down this day and get other things done, but it shouldn't end with anything but a lynch on Ranger.

[Imperium]

We shouldn't be no lynching today because of the possibility of stopping a kill and gaining an extra mislynch.

[Imperium]

Hammering a Town read "just because I was bored and wanted get to scum-hunting the next day" followed up by ZERO scum-hunting the next day

is very Town while

Hammering a Scum read when you are being pressed yourself

is Obv-scum.

KTS is a troll (an enjoyable troll, but a troll nonetheless). Ranger is one of the top town players on the site.

Quickhammering a scumread because it looks like you are going to be lynched instead of convincing the people that are suspecting you that they are wrong about you is self-preservation, and it's a move that increases the likelihood of her getting the lynched which means that she's throwing the game if she's town. It's really fucked up to do this when one of your top town reads is catching up, particularly when you think that they are capable players.

[Imperium]

If you ever quick hammered in the name of self-preservation, I'd quicklynch the shit out of you the next day because there's no fucking way you do that. If I quick hammered in the name of self-preservation, I'd expect you to lynch the shit out of me the next day because there's no fucking way I do that as town. Ranger is a good enough player where there's no excuse for her to do something so horrible and atrocious.

[Imperium]

This is the part where if I were scum I would speed-hammer beeboy and go straight into night.

That is not the case because I'm waiting for consent from both Performer and Heat.

[Imperium]

This is MYLO so pretty damn sure my scum reads on kill and Rach are spot on given this power wagon attempt.

Well I'll have you know: the reason I've defended Killthestory is that I've been under the impression he was a PR. So with you claiming jailkeeper, if he's not the roleblocker, then I recant my townread there.

I cannot see any world where Ranger quickhammers the day before LyLo because she is getting lynched as town.

The reason I hammered was experience. In Pokemon Episode 4, I was the first to call School of Science scum. I voted elsewhere, but was the first to make the case against them. I continued making my case against them. While not voting them. Then,

explicitly because of

my case

, a wagon formed on them. But when I

did

switch, it was called opportunistic and I was lynched. Case one, lesson learned: don't wait too long to vote a scumread, which Masquerade was.

Case two, and even more relevant to this game: Open 625. I had the three scum pegged as early as here. (I was wrong on which type was which, but correct on the names.)

iraonavp (3) – BROseidon, Heat, Jeanne11
BROseidon (2) - Ranger, Iraonavp
Ranger (2) - Performer, Beeboy

A wagon formed on me. I knew iraonavp was scum, and BROseidon was scum, and thought BROseidon was the hider guilty (he was), but couldn't get the lynch there. I also knew beeboy was scum, but knew that if BROseidon and iraonavp both voted me, or worse, town voted me, I would be lynched. So, what did I do? I hammered scum. Knowing it would look bad, but doing so anyway because if I let scum live, I could have been lynched.

In a cruel twist of irony, guess what happened the next day? I decided

not

to hammer a player I knew was scum, in spite of 100% knowing they were scum. And know what happened? Surprise, surprise. The very next page, I was lynched. Because I didn't hammer scum when I had the chance.

So, yes.

I hammered Masquerade, my strongest scumread, when my life was in danger, because the chance of lynching scum > lynching me.

VOTE: No Lynch

The correct play here is to lynch. If a kill is stopped, either by MagnaofIllusion or the roleblocker, then we gain an extra day phase. No-lynching is therefore a scum-oriented move.

So too is the wagon on me, btw. I find it no coincidence that all three of my scumreads (Ollie, RachMarie, and Titus) all joined it immediately.

If you were town and hallucinating enough where you thought it was a good idea to quick hammer town THE DAY BEFORE MYLO because you thought you might get lynched, then you would have explained why you were doing so more thoroughly. You would have pushed back on our cases on you, you would have done fucking anything but just quick hammer for your survival, which is a play that's so completely beneath your play as town that it would sincerely break my heart if you were town here because you're so many countless leagues above a player like that.

[Imperium]

Pedit again beeboy??? I dont think hes in this game?

Sorry, that was a quote from a different game.

[Imperium]

You act like there's any choice to be made there.

There isn't. I wish there was, I hate that I have to do it, but I am, absolutely, right about this.

If you were town, you lost the game on a bad read because you didn't have faith that anyone else could play the game properly.

[Imperium]

@ Nacho what am I missing?

That was a quote from one of the games Ranger was posting about to explain why she quick hammered when she did. I noted that she said, while in a very similar scenario, that if she was scum she would quick hammer and throw the game to night.

[Imperium]

I'd swap out Kil for Nos in your position, but otherwise it's good to me.

[Imperium]

You act like there's any choice to be made there.

There isn't. I wish there was, I hate that I have to do it, but I am, absolutely, right about this.

If you were town, you lost the game on a bad read because you didn't have faith that anyone else could play the game properly.

[Imperium]

Rach already said that she's willing to lynch.

[Imperium]

Ranger, in that game, you didn't hammer confirmed scum. The town lynched you immediately. They were idiots. The situation in this game is not similar at all.

[Imperium]

I've been lynched as confirmed innocent in LyLo before. Did that make me think that all towns were inherently dumb as shit? No. Every town is different.

[Imperium]

As long as MoI agrees that Ranger is scum, we're okay on numbers and should probably focus elsewhere.

[Imperium]

Didn't know that we were prodded, today is (Nacho)'s mafia posting day so would deeply appreciate not being replaced and given a chance to post.

[Imperium]

My opinion of town competency this game is not that high. I include myself in that, I'll admit freely. This is not one of my prouder games. But I held zero confidence in you not lynching me yesterday. I held zero confidence in another lynch forming. I've been on the losing end of "Ranger or player" multiple times. In this case, Ranger or Masquerade, town or town. But I saw nothing indicating this wasn't going to happen again: Ranger versus some other player, Ranger gets lynched.

For instance. Did you read the game overnight? If so, did you come to any conclusion other than the default "Ranger is scum" you have now? Would your reread, at all, whatsoever, have reduced your scumread on me? Your scumread, that was apparently strong enough that you placed your vote on me while you wanted to reread? Because if the answer is "no"...my point holds.

The point is that instead of fighting your lynch, you bet the game on a Masquerade!scum flip when Masquerade hadn't actually done anything that was overtly scummy. Not getting lynched the day before MyLo is useless if it means that you'll be lynched during MyLo. I'm not particularly interested in arguing with you on this point since you're somehow still arguing that you were right and somehow don't see how the move you made would be absolutely horrendous if you were town; from what I've skim-read since I've began catching up, it also doesn't seem like you're overly concerned with finding scum of any flavor either.

[Imperium]

Oh ... and Killthestory is still obviously scum. Anyone who wants to debate that needs to explain, for starters, how he did ZERO scum-hunting Day 3 (except, of course, when he and Titus had their little fun buddying and he pointed out Masq as scum which was of course 100% wrong) after his scum-hammer on a player he was calling Town to "move on to better scum-hunting". Not a single person has EVER addressed this with any degree of anything other than "I think he's Town" and I want answers from ANYONE holding a Killthestory Town read.

My problem with the KTS case is less that I think that his actions make sense from a normal town perspective and more that I'm not currently willing to put my weight behind the scum case on him. I don't think that hammer on CoM to move onto better scumhunting was scummy; I didn't think that KTS as scum needed to hammer that wagon in order to get CoM lynched, and I'm not sure that he would hammer someone that he publicly thought he was town in order to get a lynch that was guaranteed anyways instead of just shutting his mouth and accepting the free town cred.

[Imperium]

Imperium are you two gonna catch up then? 2 posts in 5 days isn't enough, pretty pathetic considering there's 2 of you.

No, we're not going to catchup. We're just going to comment on those two posts and make our decision based on that.

[Imperium]

I’ll be voting Ranger in my first post back regardless.

I'd be happier if you didn't do this; I'm currently townreading both Nosferatu and RachMarie (who are in your top 2), and Ranger's responses to me haven't been at all what I expected if she was scum (granted, I'm not exactly confident that she is town but with the way this game is going I think we'd be dumb not to pretty heavily consider the possibility), and I'd like a little bit more time in order to talk this out with you.

[Imperium]

I know I made a promise and broke it already, but I should be in full(er) form by tomorrow after work; I'll keep connected to this game until then.

[Imperium]

How sure are you that RachMarie is town? Enough to risk the game on?

Yes.

Titus, Ollie, KTS would be what I think the scum team would look like with you as town.

[Imperium]

I mean, if you look at daystart, I think it's pretty dang obvious scum were hoping to get a quicklynch on me and that I'm town, because they would have no way of knowing I hadn't, say, read the whole game and 100% absolutely caught the scum. I got to L-2, with Titus on the side. One more vote on me from someone other than her, and I'd be dead right now and we'd be in night. Given that as reason for me to be town, sure.

I don't think the people who placed votes on you after you quickhammered were placing unreasonable votes, whether scum or town. I don't think scum would be voting you because they were afraid that you caught the scum; I expect scum would be voting you because they thought that you were a pretty solid mislynch after you quickhammered.

[Imperium]

Only off thing he did that sticks in my mind is replacing out at the time he came under pressure.

This seems like a pretty strange scumtell for OW. Do you think that a scum player who was capable of making the posts that OW did would replace out simply because he was being pressured? Not threaten to replace out, mind you, but actually replace out.

Mod: Can you delete that post? Here's the fixed link version.

What was your intention in making this post?
Not saying it was useless or anything like that, I'm just trying to understand what argument you were trying to make (if any).

the actual correct scenario is to no lynch without posting at all so scum doesn't have more information on who to kill but you guys fucked that over already. Lynching will result in your lynch. I don't have any suggestions on who to lynch today. I'm completely stumped. All my scum reads have been off so far. I don't have faith in us lynching scum or correctly stopping a kill so I'm playing it safe and hoping the kill will narrow something down for me.

I don't think that there is a correct play when there's no hard information to be gained. If we'd like, we could force a no lynch with doc publicly on Magna and Magna publicly on a townread, but I can see a scenario where a stronger townread of mine dies (you) and I have nothing gained. The only kills that would be useful for me would be a kill in {Ollie, KTS, Ranger, Titus}, but I don't really see one of those kills happening at this point; I'd expect scum would no kill before taking the townie in that four out.

[Imperium]

So you're we should no lynch without talking... Yet you aren't voting no lynch.

Why would this be a significant tell?

I asked you two things that I'd love an answer to: What's your relationship with Tammy like now, & what was it like before you replaced into this game? & some more if you don't mind... Why would you offer to replace out? If it's because you've had issues with each other in the past, why do you think you've had no issues in this one? I'd appreciate direct answers to every question.

This entire line of questioning seems useless to me. This is being spurned due to Titus's offer to replace out, correct?
Titus and Tammy have history. Why do you need more context than that for you to believe it was something that was so ridiculous that it could only be coming from scum sucking up?

[Imperium]

I'm leaning towards bus for cred going on right now. Ranger and kill both have been calling each other Town for days. And then suddenly today both have backed off their Town read on the other.

Reviewing Kill's read on Ranger, I agree that the switch (or the initial read) doesn't really make any sense whatsoever.
I also haven't really understood Ranger's perspective on KTS too well at all; from what I understand, the initial townread on him was because he might be the doctor (why did she think that?), and then that falls away if he's not the doctor but she doesn't have any read on him separate from that?

Rach's read also makes little sense coming from Town. Her only justification is the hammer with no claim to seeing scummy behavior prior to this. And Ocean's behavior Day 2 around the small Ranger wagon fits with distancing scum. He jumped on when I tried to get a block voting for Ranger as opposed to obv-mislynch Snarky but bailed almost immediately to go for Snarky. And them pre-flip tried to sell me as the most suspect player regarding the outcome of the Snarky wagon.

I don't think that Rach's position is unreasonable; her previous view on the slot was that Ranger's predecessors were either scummy and not around, and then Ranger quickhammered a town player because she might have been lynched. OceanWind's play is more complicated to unpack; I suppose that he makes sense as a possible partner, but from what I remember, he was the only player that really had problems with Jim's posting and went after that slot when he really didn't have to and I'm not exactly sure that he'd be the type of player that'd be averse to finishing a bus that he started long ago.

[Imperium]

Ollie's is the least likely scum bussing post but I have some concerns.

Could you explain your Ollie read in more detail?
I thought that his Day 1 looked decent, but I haven't seen anything worth a townread since then.

[Imperium]

My point is. You have zero experience with me as scum. Yet when Ranger states this is my scumgame with very little backing it up, you're posturing based off differences between my alleged town and scum meta. You shouldn't have any foundation to suggest a meta read. Even now, your read is very simplified. It reads as if Someone (my bet is on Ranger) told you to find examples of Titus being nice and argue it's sucking up.

Even now, you ignored the context you asked me to provide you. There's a difference between being a civil human being and avoiding confrontation Ollie. You're attempting to paint them in the same brush.

I use whatever info I have at my disposal, the goal is your reaction to the things I'm saying. The sucking up stuff is not a strong scum case on its own, it was a way into putting some pressure on you (like I was doing with everyone). It's clear I'm still sorting people by looking at Rach & Kill possibly bussing Ranger etc but you're behaving as if I'm advocating we lynch you today when I've never even said you're scum. I mean you have a problem with not being in the bus scenario I said was a possibility, er what? I asked you about the sucking up posts & you then come up with two scenarios, funnily enough I'm scum in both. Where is your reason there, anyone who questions you is scum? Were you trying to discredit me? Or what? Then you say the same Ranger I want to lynch today has coached me overnight about you as if the game revolves around you, & continued on with that nonsense. What info do I have that I shouldn't?

You very heavily implied that Titus was scum with the whole "look at you sucking up to Tammy " wall. None of your other points in this response are particularly cogent; could you rephrase things for me a bit?

[Imperium]

This is great posturing and all but you lost all rights to complain about not No Lynching today when you came out firing immediately and necessitated me claiming to halt the speedwagon so discussion could take place today.

I am glad that you outed today since you outing today was probably the optimal move for town.

1. I don’t care that you like his trolling – why are you giving him a pass for that terrible, terrible hammer and his subsequent play? What is your read on Kill?

The hammer bothers me less than the read switch on Ranger does; I'm currently scumreading him.

2. Do I need to look up Olympus Mafia from way back? I’m fuzzy on the details but think you got mislynched late in that game and part of me wants to look at your play regarding pressure on your slot.

I have absolutely no idea where this was coming from; I'd suggest looking at more recent games if you've got a sudden urge to meta me. I did get mislynched in Olympus Mafia, but I thought it was for role-based reasons mostly and don't remember it too closely so my playstyle has likely evolved since then.

[Imperium]

This is great posturing and all but you lost all rights to complain about not No Lynching today when you came out firing immediately and necessitated me claiming to halt the speedwagon so discussion could take place today.

I am glad that you outed today since you outing today was probably the optimal move for town.

1. I don’t care that you like his trolling – why are you giving him a pass for that terrible, terrible hammer and his subsequent play? What is your read on Kill?

The hammer bothers me less than the read switch on Ranger does; I'm currently scumreading him.

2. Do I need to look up Olympus Mafia from way back? I’m fuzzy on the details but think you got mislynched late in that game and part of me wants to look at your play regarding pressure on your slot.

I have absolutely no idea where this was coming from; I'd suggest looking at more recent games if you've got a sudden urge to meta me. I did get mislynched in Olympus Mafia, but I thought it was for role-based reasons mostly and don't remember it too closely so my playstyle has likely evolved since then.

[Imperium]

OW/Rach - OW was town as fuck, pulled no punches on anyone, asked all the right questions. Rach scummed the slot up quite a bit, possible bus on Ranger, at the least that was a bad vote. But that slot still had enough town credit from OW for me to not make her a scum read. Scum lean.

Can you detail your read on Rach a bit more and explain why she's so scummy to you?
I don't understand what's so terrible about the Rach slot that she could tear down your OW town read (which seems pretty strong by your short summary) so easily.

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

We voted you because it was a gut read that I had when catching up. We didn't case you because it was a gut read we had when catching up. You were probably ignored when you asked for us to expand on our reasoning because, in case you didn't notice, we've been floating in the ether for a little while now. How does this equal a scumread for you?

Killthestory - seems to have changed from Ranger being a 'prophet' to voting for her just for a hammer, but I doubt that will ever be explained. His posting is too sparse & lacking in content to get a real handle. If I was gonna vote for him it would probably be out of frustration than anything solid but has been more scummy lately. But he felt town early on. So I don't know about him.

Why does an early KTS townread mean that you're null on him whereas for the Rach/Us reads recent scumminess was enough for you to move us to scumleans/scum?

[Imperium]

2061 is literally calling everyone null to nullscum except Magna and me.

instead she slammed the hammer down as quickly as possible to make sure she did not get lynched.

I showed this was false in 2024. I had plenty of time and chance to hammer earlier. Masquerade also had plenty of time and chance to claim, yet was obviously not a PR. Ergo, I hammered when my life was in danger. I had already demonstrated exactly why it was in danger; that you continue to push this point as if it wasn't is why you're scum.

The point that Rach (and everyone else) is making that you were hammering when your life was in danger and that's scummy.
I'm not sure why you think that anyone is accusing you of hammering when your life wasn't in danger?

[Imperium]

Dislike. First that you strongest scum read is on Imperium for suspecting you. Protip – your play is definitely worthy of being suspected. Second that the rest of your analysis on everyone else more or less says “Meh, could be scum, could be Town”.

Not for suspecting me, come on now MoI, your reading comprehension needs improvement man. As I said I'm still sorting & I didn't expect you to like what I said considering you have a town read on Imperium. If Ranger flips scum I'll be able to get a much better handle on her partners anyway. I don't make links before a scum flip. If she's town then I've had it with this game.

Your reason for suspecting us was because we didn't explain a case on you even though we suspected you and because we ignored your request for elaboration, correct? I'm not really sure how else your read block can be taken, and if my interpretation of your suspicion is correct, then your suspicion of us is entirely centered around our read on you in which case MoI's summary of it is more accurate than you're claiming here.

Imperium is Burden of Profiency.

As in we haven't hit scum yet, or we're not seeing something that we should be seeing by now?

I could have been quicklynched by the scum.

I can't help but feeling that this isn't a legitimate worry.

[Imperium]

I don't think that Ranger is in any danger of being let off the hook, Magna.
The reason why I want to hold off on the lynch is so we can settle some of the differences between us (Rach-town/Rach-scum, Ollie-town/Ollie-scum in particular).

[Imperium]

And I'm not exactly brimming with time at the moment so I can understand if this isn't something that's desirable to you, but this end isn't ready for the day to end and still wants to talk.

[Imperium]

In re-reading 201 I’m still very much disliking his reaction to being called out for missing me on his reads list and his subsequent “It makes no sense for you to suspect me for Town-reading you”. There is no way he should have missed me as a read when his early attack on Lowell’s slot was based solely on Lowell reading me as Town. And he questioned me about my thoughts on Lowell’s read on me and why I didn’t follow-up with a question to Lowell.

I understand why you find his response to him missing out on your reads list; it does feel like appeasement based on how lazy and shoddily thrown together the read is. However, I disagree that him missing the post in the first place as a scumtell; I think that it was something that probably happened genuinely regardless of alignment since I don't think there's motivation to miss a read as either alignment (or more reason that you would miss a read for one alignment or another unless partners are involved). I don't think that his interactions with you at that point were significant enough where forgetting you would be absolutely inexcusable; he asked a question that didn't end up factoring into his final read all that much, and he asked you what you thought of Lowell's townread on you.

Re-read the tone shift surround Acryon and me starting at 267 after I express suspicion of him. He goes from pushing on Acryon to being suddenly less suspicious of Acryon based on my and Acryon’s interactions.

I don't think that this is an unreasonable progression for someone to have; I think that Acryon started looking townier in general through his engagement with you (since the only thing that he was doing before was pushing the KainTepes policy lynch for really weird reasoning). I don't think that as scum, it makes sense for his short flare up of suspicion to be based on your suspicion of you; it started up when you started suspecting him, sure, but it died before you stopped suspecting him.

403begins Ocean’s questioning on the Ranger slot (Jim at the time). Note that his first established read on Jim despite Jim’s mixing of myself and Lowell and other items was slight Town (411). He even defends Ranger’s slot at 469 regarding my pressure on Jim for mixing myself and Lowell in his reads list.

At 594 he is back to softly suspecting Jim based on inconsistencies (one of which he defended Jim on) and Jim flaking. I can easily see this as distancing given he previously light Town read Jim’s slot and the only thing that changed is that Jim was not posting.

You're right that Ocean's read progression on Jim looks pretty weird, in particular the in depth questioning that ended in a slight town read (which wasn't something that he did before, most of his questioning was of suspects only). His later posting around Jim pretends like he was never townreading him ever.

743 is interesting – he specifically singles out the Ranger slot as wanting content from. Wanting a partner to pull their weight?

Eh, this makes more sense from an Ocean!town perspective; Jim was a top suspect of his who disappeared but wasn't an incredibly strong read (the other two suspects of his were Snarky, who had posted about two pages ago, and CoM, who was decently active). I'd imagine Ocean!scum wouldn't care about that so much as he would about getting the guaranteed mislynch in and moving onto the next one, since the CoM lynch was also pretty solidly set in stone by that point.

I acknowledge your point about Jim always ending up as the last scum read in readslist; this point isn't too compelling to me because I thought that Jim ending up as the weakest scumread in those particular points (end of Day 1 especially) made sense considering the okay but low volume to flaking out thing.

Read 987 in context of the above quote – Severa was nowhere near to be seen on the “CoM flips Town” reads yet he’s the Day 2 focus with the Ranger slot once again positioned just outside his direct focus.

I actually thought that the overnight read flip is a decent point in Ocean's favor; Bella and Snarky were both pretty easy targets (if Bella was town, but I don't think that he'd insert his partner into a scumlist when there are townies aplenty to push and he was already weakly distancing with Jim). For one, I think that it was a reasonable transition; we had a lot of problems with RC based on him saying that we were scum if Snarky was mafia and CoM was town right before CoM got lynched. I also think that it would be pretty weird for Oceanwind to push Severa pretty convincingly and then end up killing him at night after his 100% scumread turned out town since he was very obviously a VT thanks to the whole "lynch me" comments.

I don't disagree re: OW's interactions with Ranger. His Masq read is meh.

I don't agree with what you've pointed out in Rach's posts; failing to follow up isn't a particularly strong scumtell for Rach and I don't think that asking me to talk about my read is a particularly alignment relevant post.

[Imperium]

I'd swap out Kil for Nos in your position, but otherwise it's good to me.

I've not read one word from your slot about why you think I'm scum.

This is the post of yours that I ignored?
I didn't give any words on your slot about why I thought you were scum because I voted you on gut, decided I liked a Ranger vote better, then there was a quickhammer. I didn't follow up with that in the beginning of the day because I was more focused on the whole Ranger quickhammering thing. Why did you expect me to make a case on you?

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

This should be thoroughly answered by the above. If it isn't, let me know.

Why? & what would it look like if Ranger is scum?

At the time, my answer would have been Ranger/You/KTS. Now, I'm leaning more {Ranger, KTS} + one of {Titus, Ollie}. I thought that group because I felt stronger in other townreads.

I wouldn't say it was some obvious scum tell, as I said directly after what you've quoted...

I'm questioning the validity of the scumtell period. I don't understand your response in saying that it wasn't "some obvious scum tell" when that clearly wasn't my argument.

Do you think that wasn't strange? Explain it for me then.

Sure, it was strange. But I don't see him replacing out unless he was genuinely pissed off. I think emotions are pretty unpredictable since they are pretty heavily affected by outside factors. But weird =/= scum, and you seeming to miss that is the reason why I'm questioning your approach to it.

Not sure how to as I thought that was pretty clear, just tell me what you don't understand.

Do you think Titus is scum because she thought you were pushing you?
What's wrong with her expectation that she would be in your scumreads when she thought you were pushing you?
Why is Titus having you scum in two different scenarios scummy?
Where does the discredit thing come from?

Gotta love gut reads, reads based on nothing. So you had this 'gut read', you coulda then asked me some questions, pushed me to gain further insight, I mean was I your top scum read at that point? But no you then moved off about half an hour later with not a single word about why you'd voted for me. & who did you move off me to? Someone you now seem to be town reading so who the hell are you pushing really, as I said, just looks like busy work, with no conviction to it...

I voted you before I caught up with recent pages because it felt like I hadn't seen like I saw anything from you for a while and my townread on you had been waning for a while. I caught up with recent pages, I found a scumread that I had reasoning for. Why would I question you when you were never a serious suspect of mine? Why would I explain my thought process behind my vote on you when, again, you were not a serious scumread?

Let me clear up that me having paranoia in a MyLo situation doesn't constitute a townread; saying "hmmm, this isn't what I expected, Ranger could be town" =/= "I'm townreading Ranger!".

Then you mention me being scum later, I asked you why & you ignore. You're admitting you ignored what I said, I have that right yes? Your reasoning is because you were floating in the ether? What on earth. Reminder; you posted after I asked you. Only now after I've pressed you into it are you even questioning me. & this is a crucial part of the game which neither of you have previously seemed bothered about until almost being replaced for your inactivity.

I didn't respond to you earlier because my time was limited and responding to you was not a priority of mine. My reasoning is that I almost got replaced for my activity; clearly I've been disengaged from the game for a little while and clearly the vote on you wasn't a vote that I put a large amount of thought into (and I don't understand why you're treating it as something different than it is). I'm questioning you now because I'm around in full; I wasn't around before. I don't understand the point you're bringing up about us almost getting replaced; is there a point here?

It's because his posting style is hard to read. Lack of content & not backing up what he says most of the time.

What did you townread from him early?

Using other people's opinions for your reasoning so they wouldn't find it strange etc. This is enough for a scum lean because my reads are centred around Ranger being scum atm, if she flips town I'll reassess. Not making her a scum read on it though as I don't look for scum teams til we get a scum flip.

The hammer post was a pretty reasonable thing to scumread. I don't understand why you think KTS went from town to scum on Ranger if not for the bus vote and especially don't understand why his lack of an explanation is somehow a plus for him; he pretty clearly doesn't care about looking classically protown regardless of alignment, so why do you think that he would suddenly care about it when bussing a partner?

I don't understand the comparisons you make against us and the other two games; both were attacks that happened early and were going on for a while and were going on for ridiculous reasons. This was a game where we voted you for not that long and voted someone else when we hadn't been around in a while and you're acting like we made a serious push at you and tried to mislynch you but haven't explained it at all.

[Imperium]

So also side note: I don't care if MoI is town reading you. I'm not going to sheep MoI's reads just because he has town credit. I'm forming my own opinions & if I'm wrong I'll learn from it. Hate losing cos I went along with someone else who was wrong though.

I also have no idea why you posted this.

[Imperium]

My biggest reason for townreading OceanWind is based on not only how constantly he reevaluated reads, but how much effort and how many reads he had based on the town versus town Snarky/CoM wagons D1. In the scumgames of his that I reviewed (Micro 550, Micro 539, Blitz 1), he never came close to or suggested stalling a wagon for towncred or doing anything other than accepting a lynch when it came, and I don't really see why this game would be the sole exception; the point Day 1 when he constantly said that he wanted the day to go longer and needed more time to reanalyze lines up far heavier with his town game (just like the one that Rach quoted). He's put an obscene amount of effort into doing things that it doesn't make any sense for scum to do (Snarky push, his push on us). He didn't really buddy up to anyone throughout the entire game which would be extraordinarily weird for scum who thrives off having town friends. I think that his reaming out Snarky for shitty play is also genuine and something that seems to occur far more often in town games than scum games.

[Imperium]

With regards to his Snarky/CoM reaction, the argument could be made that he was setting up for the CoM lynch and trying to solidify the Snarky mislynch the next day, but that seems pretty unlikely to me considering how mislynchable Snarky was and how hard RC was pushing Snarky the day before. And again, this is the sheer effort that Ocean put into his last-minute push on snarky:

Yeah, that case by SnarkySnowman was baloney. The part about "derailing the more thorough cases against Bellaphant" was a huge stretch. I'm actually leaning towards Bellaphant and SnarkySnowman being mafia together. Considering he has Bellaphant as a "townlean," it is odd the way he is trying to tie Bellaphant and Severa together and accusing Severa of shutting down discussion on Bellaphant. I'd rather lynch SnarkySnowman today. Do we have the time and the numbers to switch?

UNVOTE: ChurchOfMercy
VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Based on his response to SnarkySnowman's case, yeah. I know you think Severa is mafia but look at SnarkySnowman's case on him and how he positioned himself to "compromise" on you. The case is complete nonsense. His not taking a position on you probably means he thinks your lynch is achievable without his support. So, the following day, he can look like he has his hands clean and continue pushing Severa. The "association" is crap as well. Once you flip town, he'll simply go back to "oh, it was Severa all along, not ChurchOfMercy."

Yeah, I don't feel that strongly that ChurchOfMercy is town but enough to want SnarkySnowman first, and then rethink. But I think if SnarkySnowman and ChurchOfMercy were mafia together, Snarky probably wouldn't hesitate to vote a doomed partner and instead vote a player he knows he has no chance of lynching.

The fact that we’ve had such trouble getting Church to L-1 in the first place combined with this sudden very, very late day counter-wagon building makes me feel even better about the CoM lynch.

We had no trouble getting ChurchOfMercy up to L-1. People kept unvoting because they didn't want them in hammer range but for the vast majority of the day, ChurchOfMercy was the default lynch option. It's only now that another option emerged. What trouble are you talking about?

You replaced a flaked slot with no posts. You hop on the leading wagon with no reasoning other than “CoM is scum” and have done NO scum-hunting despite there being a thread full of content to discuss. Not hard to see your slot as a strong scum candidate – I certainly do.

Are you saying Severa is mafia with ChurchOfMercy or that he's mafia in the event ChurchOfMercy flips town? If the former, do you think he was bussing?

My townread on him comes from how he reacted to the case on him. The sudden aggression looked like town that thought they finally found something strong to push on. Severa wasn't in any real danger of being lynched so I don't know why he as mafia would panic at SnarkySnowman catching him and push back hard rather than stay on the bus/mislynch of ChurchOfMercy and put off Snarky for the following day.

I'm also interested in your thoughts about Snarky's actual case. Specifically, the notion that KillTheStory's case on Bellaphant was good and that Severa was derailing a legitimate line of enquiry. I found KillTheStory's case mediocre and attitude unproductive so it wasn't unreasonable for Severa to make that "god's gift to scumhunting" quip.

---

My initial impression is that derailing the CoM wagon to lynch Snarky is stupid; I've had decently strong scum reads on both slots for a while now, they are now shaping up as counter wagons and are still not cross voting (instead, they are both pushing a third target).

Why is it stupid to lynch Snarky if you have a decent scumread on the slot? What do you think of Snarky's case on Severa?

3. Ok, I didn't explain this well: reading through the game as a whole I found myself not agreeing with magna's points, but when I looked at them in iso I saw a tonne of thought progression and engagement - a lot of the time I look at whether I can see a sustained thought process, rather than if I directly agree with it. The frustration with acron seemed real, 162 was good, they pushed me for follow up about kt

I liked this post from Bella - this is a fairly insightful post from her on Magna and I think it's probably indicative of a town approach; no, it's nothing huge or really significant and I'm having trouble forming the right words, but I think that the reasons she's town reading Magna for are good ones and I think that it's less likely she would come to the right conclusion if she was scum.

While I didn't find that bit particularly scummy, it is vague to the point I'm not really sure what she's talking about. Decent players can fake thought progressions even as mafia and stay fairly engaged with the game, be frustrated at people and so on.

More than that though, I don't find her approach to the argument between MagnaOfIllusion and Acryon to be original. She's just going along with Magna's points using similar wording ("weaseling"), and just parroting what Magna said. I didn't get the feeling that she felt strongly one way or another or even understood the specifics of their argument. She just told me vague stuff like "

I just feel there's a lot of distancing between what was said between one time and the next around the same core idea

" which seems evasive and a way to just address my suspicion so I'd get off of her rather than positively asserting that Acryon is mafia for such and such reasons and that I should see it.

There's also her repeated dodging of my request to post links to games of Ollie's that she read. If she really did read them, posting the evidence shouldn't take so long. But on the 12th, when she first got to my question, she said she'll post the following day. Yesterday the 14th, when she came back, she modified that and said that I should give her a reason for asking and if she can get behind that, then she'd post the links. That makes me suspect that she didn't actually do the reading.

lowell continues to not impress.

And, oddly enough, I agree with this. Lowell was a town read of mine early game, but since then he's faded into the deep dark nothingness and is starting to play exactly like I expected his scum game to look like. I like this observation as well!

I've been in the same place (townreading Lowell mid-D1 and then wondering if I'm wrong), but it's the little things he does like popping up to say that Severa was town at a time when others were pushing him that re-inforce my townread. It's more that Lowell seeing what I'm seeing is relatable.

I thought Bellaphant's read on Lowell was rather shallow. She's voting for ChurchOfMercy, yet Lowell was the first person to bring up that are likely mafia which was the turning point for my read. Bellaphant doesn't seem to have given it a second glance.

I think the scumteam is comprised of SnarkySnowman, Bellaphant, and one of Jim or ChurchOfMercy. The first two actually make a decent amount of sense as a team. Snarky trying to tie Severa to Bellaphant despite having her as a townread is one such indication. What actually made me second-guess the most on ChurchOfMercy though is that Snarky is happy to sit on the sidelines and let the lynch go through without committing to it. That reads like he things we can lynch them without his support. You are scumreading both ChurchOfMercy and SnarkySnowman. Can you elaborate on what you think of Snarky's attitude towards ChurchOfMercy?

Have you done any research into Snowman's meta? Machina Mafia was likely the townies game he has ever played, and it wasn't very dissimilar from this game.

I remember vaguely reading the game towards the end where Titus and DiamondSentinel handed mafia the win. But I don't remember SnarkySnowman. Maybe I'll go look if I have time.

What?
You think that Snarky as scum saw a perfectly viable mislynch and instead of just cashing in on it (because everyone agreed with it), he instead decided to make a push on Severa, who a majority of town players were town reading?

Where do you get that the majority of players were townreading Severa? I had him as my second scumread and most people just seemed disappointed with how Severa is not posting much content. But we agree that Severa wasn't likely to be lynched today. So, if Snarky is mafia, why does he ignore the wagon on his buddy and place his vote on an unlikely lynch? On the other hand, if ChurchOfMercy is town that is the default lynch of the day, you don't think mafia would consider the idea of keeping their hands clean knowing that they'll get the mislynch anyways?

Why wouldn't he just vote on the Church wagon though, especially as he's stated that he's not town reading them? His hands wouldn't be dirty anyway as he's not the main pusher of that wagon. He could very easily follow along with the crowd today and not look bad.

Because his vote is not needed to achieve the mislynch. And the "talking like they are town" thing, I'm conflicted on Church.

So, here's Snarky's first content post in the game:

Here's a readlist.

Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}

ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.

Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:

a. The only reason he has for Severa being mafia is "doing almost nothing" which is pretty weak for twenty pages of content read.
b. Doesn't vote Severa here (wants others to make the first move).
c. Sees a lot of "associatives" with ChurchOfMercy. Doesn't explain what these are. Doesn't explain any of his reads despite being asked twice. Claims he wants to read "more thoroughly" but don't necessarily think they are scum. This is the hedging that I'm talking about. ChurchOfMercy is all but a default lynch for the day and he's refusing to take a stance and commit to a position. By the way, he never followed up on the "more thorough read." His wording here (info-lynch) also suggests that he doesn't want responsibility for the townflip. Mafia don't call their partners lynches "info-lynches." Especially not newbie-type mafia like Snarky-Snowman.

VOTE: Severa

A lot of people call him out for his lack of vote so he puts a vote on Severa. By the way, this doesn't make sense with his earlier stance that he'd vote Severa if a wagon forms since only one vote was on Severa. It looks more like he buckled under pressure and cast a vote.

Why do you talk like you think you're god's gift to scumhunting?
I'll give you a little hint: you're not.
I will not be unvoting CoM today unless something big happens.

This, directed at Kts, feels like it's meant to be de-railing to one of the most thorough cases (against Bella) that I've seen Kts make.

Killthestory basically said "we're lynching Bellaphant today" here. She didn't make a "case" much less a thorough one. This is bullshit.

I don't really understand the need to end the day right away. We don't have much to lose from Jim or his replacement (a slot that I think has a good chance of flipping mafia) committing to positions on ChurchOfMercy and SnarkySnowman. My top suspects are those three and Bellaphant so the more I see them all interacting, the better it is for later. Jim or his replacement catching up during the night doesn't solve that. Besides I'd rather we don't decide lynches based on high-volume last minute posting.

1. Snarky did say that he'd vote Severa "if we run up against it." That's not a narrative I'm creating.

2. You keep implying that if there's a near guaranteed mislynch, mafia would definitely hop on rather than hesitate to join the wagon or create counterwagons so that they can push the following day. A mafia player's dream ending to day one is two town counterwagons because the next day, the people who didn't get their lynch will push that wagon. You are acting like their only option is to hop onto that certain mislynch and I don't agree with that even remotely.

3. If he pushes Severa and somehow manages to swing the votes, chances are people are going to go back to ChurchOfMercy the following day. An unexpected lynch usually results in the previous days suspicions being continued. But if he pushes Severa and fails, a) people will likely look at the ChurchOfMercy mislynch wagon (assuming they are town) for mafia letting him evade suspicion. b) He can simply continue the push the following day. I think if he made a late hop onto the Church wagon, people would likely find it scummy and he's self-conscious about that.

Snarky gets mislynched/immediately vigged a lot.

I looked through the first few links you gave and skimmed Snarky's ISO briefly. He does seem to just post naked reads lists and have low activity relative to the rest of the game so I'll grant that maybe he's just lynchbait. I still want to see him post a lot more and not just rush the lynch today. Your point on Albert Rampage is noted. There were a couple of games I read of his where he had a lot of passion for the game which he isn't showing here.

This is not a good move to do regardless of alignment; I don't understand why you say that newb-scum wouldn't say that their partner's lynch had information (if he said he was lynching CoM for information, that would be an abnormal bus and thus would be an unlikely interaction. Saying nothing alignment indicative about your partner is new-scum 101).

He said a ChurchOfMercy lynch would yield information. That looks like he's setting up to "compromise" on them if it is needed. That would also be the reason why he has them as a leaning scumread as opposed to a townread. He wants to leave open the option to vote them if it comes down to it.

---

Anyways, it seems I'm outnumbered and there just aren't enough people who want to lynch SnarkySnowman. I'll roll with a ChurchOfMercy lynch but I want the full day utilized and no hammer before Jim's replacement has a chance to post.

ChurchOfMercy is at L-2 with KillTheStory claiming intent to hammer so effective L-1. No one else vote since I really would prefer we don't end this day early.

My primary pool of mafia is still SnarkySnowman, Bellaphant, ChurchOfMercy, and Jim in that order.

I'm less sure about townreads on Lowell and Imperium. Lowell because of his post defending Snarky and some of his later posts not making sense. I do think he's town if ChurchOfMercy is mafia though. I don't buy that he's bussing them. Imperium because a lot of their reasoning doesn't make internal sense. The Lowell-bussing-Church argument is one. Their townread on Bellaphant is shallow and the intense frustration over the SnarkySnowman wagon doesn't make sense when the latter was their second scumread. I also don't like the overly aggressive posturing and it seems a lot different from the game I played with Nachomamma8 where he was a lot more diplomatic and had a "positive energy" for lack of a better word. Specifically the parts where they accused me of "creating a narrative" around Snarky, and the latest posts (807, 814). If Bellaphant and Snarky are mafia like I think, Imperium needs to be looked at.

My read on Ollie is a lot weaker now considering he hasn't done much of anything lately. But the things I townread him for early are pretty strong towntells so he's still leaning town. KillTheStory, MagnaOfIllusion, Nosferatu, Acryon, Xisiqomelir, and Severa are all town.

There is no way in hell that I would even consider putting this much effort into setting up a mislynch on Snarky of all people (who was very very likely getting mislynched the next day) when I had already secured my spot on the current mislynch wagon and said mislynch wagon was literally seconds in going through. If Ocean is scum, there had to be something more complicated that was driving him other than pursuit of towncred, but I have no idea what it could be. If Ocean is town, motivation is clear; he was getting paranoid, he was reevaluating, he was trying to push elsewhere.

[Imperium]

Eh ... perhaps I'm confirmed biased on Ocean but his end of Day 2 pre-flip post I am having huge trouble getting past as anything that comes from a realistic semblence of Town mindset.

Because he flipped so hard on someone he was pretty strongly scumreading or because he bought Snarky claiming town in twilight so quickly?
If it's the second reason, I think that people are more gullible than you think - I tend to claim town in twilight as scum mainly because people's scramble to reassess reads with me!town are usually entertaining to see, especially if they've been pushing me pretty hard previously. If it's the first part, then I don't think his Snarky read was that strong; his read showed signs of breaking earlier and there were a good number of posts like this:

So, I don't trust anyone at this point. Mostly, I'm frustrated that no one really cares about the game except you, Ranger, and killthestory. Anyone could be mafia for all I know, except maybe kill, Nosferatu, and Acryon's empty seat.

that made it seem like he was feeling pretty lost in the game in general, so his willingness to believe that he mislynched again doesn't actually seem all that outlandish to me.

[Imperium]

How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Killthestory today?
How receptive are you to the idea of lynching Titus today?

I'd feel more receptive to these things if I felt townier about you.
What do you think of our exchange on OceanWind/Rach? What do you think about Ollie?

[Imperium]

And I like that his read list there only omitted Seshat and KainTepes who has zero posts. Feels much more genuine to me than Ocean’s which missed me.

I don't think that a player being capable of making a complete readslist is particularly alignment indicative.
This is probably confirmation bias from my end, but I still think that Ollie townreading Church for "supporting him" is stupid and fake; I originally thought that it was because they were partners (for a brief moment), but I think it makes more sense if he was trying to find a reason to white-knight him. This is also the second reference to the Dingus game that's used in order to support a weird read, which I don't like; it feels like he knows that the read is abnormal, but is trying to use past experience to explain why. Like, okay. He got attacked by a Mafia player a couple of times. Why does that mean that he townreads people who defend him and scumreads people that attack him?

I think posting another reads list in 265 and calling it more "solid" is awkward; he made it apparently because he realized he was townreading people too easily who were townreading him and this reads list was fixing it, but I think that it's more along the lines of him readjusting after his read on CoM started getting him in trouble.

I think that the way that he interacted with the Snarky/CoM wagons (voting for the second mislynch while calling the push on the first one bad but not calling it town) is more along the lines of how I expected scum to approach the first day; in particular, I'd like to highlight this post:

Severa (2): ChurchofMercy, SnarkySnowman

I see Severa as town, reckless posting from the time she got started to now. She's very emotional & I find that easy to read. She's almost one of my 3 proper town reads but I'd like to see a town & a scum game from them before I go that far. Should be a pretty easy player to read just by reading past games.

With the extension of the day we have enough time to make a decision between these two...

ChurchOfMercy (6) [L-2]: Lowell, Imperium, Bellaphant, MagnaofIllusion, acryon, Killthestory

I have sympathy for a hydra that comes under fire because it can be hard to allay people's suspicions about you once the ball is rolling. I had a hydra game where we were pestered constantly, & with two people you can end up pissing off almost everybody. But they are a very confusing slot now so I can't get a read either way. It would be the safe move to lynch Church as they look like being a VT & we do get alot of info. & they could be annoying to sort if they survive. But when I think about those as reasons for voting for Church, they seem like bullshit reasons.

SnarkySnowman (3): Severa, OceanWind, Xisiqomelir

Initially I saw Snarky's reads list 528 as a positive because he had me, OW & MoI as town & we were finally getting something to read from that slot. From reassessing my own reads from my 1st reads list to my 2nd I've realized how much I've been wanting to town read people who are town reading me so I got rid of those kinds of reads in my 2nd list. Snarky wasn't in the game when I made my 2nd list so he's slipped through my net. I wouldn't say I was town reading him but I deffo gave him a pass. Looking at that list again, his 3 town reads were pretty safe & could have been pre-emptive placatory reads so he could have an easy life, because the 3 of us were the ones going after people. & no reasoning for his reads despite being perfectly happy to sort everyone into sections. I found plenty of content to fuel my reads for my 2nd list, & this was before Snarky's list so I would expect him to be able to do that as well. He wouldn't quite be in my scum list, but he's lower down my totem poll than Church.

Today hasn't ended up great in terms of helping me sort people; with none of my top scum reads on the table for the lynch. & none of them are very involved in any of the wagons. But when I think back to a week ago when I wanted to try & get something else going instead of a Church wagon, people were stubbornly sticking to voting for him. Even now after all this late in the day madness, he's the clear vote leader. I think at least some people are going for Church because they became the easy option. & kinda related to that, looking at the wagons... Lowell & Bella on Church's wagon isn't exactly filling me with confidence about them being scum & OW & Severa are on Snarky's. So my vote goes here. VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Snarky can you flesh out this reads list with reasoning please 528 & talk me through any changes in your reads since you made it.

I dislike how he doesn't so much as make an attempt to sort out CoM's alignment; he says that they're confusing but doesn't so much as comment on any of the reasons that people are scumreading them, nor actually looks into any of their posts. I also don't understand where the "I think that CoM is VT and annoying and we get a lot of info but those are bullshit reasons so I won't vote there" thing comes from; those weren't reasons that anyone else were talking so why did he bring them up?

His piece on Snarky is garbage; I don't like that the "I was okay with Snarky because he was townreading me! Oops!" bit came up again, and the case Ollie posts on him is no more complicated than "I think Snarky could have posted more content".

He justifies the weakness of this post by talking about how he couldn't get anything done because of the CoM wagon but that's just not true; the only thing that he tried to get going was a Nosferatu wagon, but it's not like he actually pushed for one; the only interactions he had with her after her vote were questions and then saying that she looked townier. He also talks about how his top scum reads (which were Nosferatu, Lowell, Bella) weren't very involved in the wagons, but that's also inaccurate; Lowell and Bella were both voting Snarky, and the only reaction Ollie has to that is a throwaway mention of it at the very end of the case whereas if Ollie was town I would expect two of his scumreads voting a major wagon that he's not that sure about in the first place to be more of a sticking point.

[Imperium]

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

[Imperium]

I am disconnected. I am royally confused. Imperium's continued life in this game with no kills being blocked and no PRs flipping makes about as much sense as wings on an ant. Zero.I cannot figure out why that is.

http://ant.edb.miyakyo-u.ac.jp/BE/Kingd ... 1617e.html

I'm not sure how I can help you re: my slot.
I don't think either of our pushes on CoM or Snarky were particularly unreasonable, or how you expected us to deal with the Masquerade lynch.
I don't see how these kills are anything but garbage; Xisiq wouldn't be a threat to us, RC was obviously a VT thanks to his "lynch me" post, and I can't wrap my head around the massive kill at all.
We've also been inactive for a decent chunk of the game (remember when we were almost replaced?), which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead but the bigger picture is that the kills are garbage.

[Imperium]

@Imperium are you town reading Ranger atm? Can you answer that in as much detail as possible please.

No.

[Imperium]

And I don't understand what you need explained in detail at this point; I'm not making a scum case on her because she's getting lynched, and I never said that she was town (in my post backing off her, I said that I wasn't confident that she was town, but we should heavily consider the possibility). If you think something about my process was unnatural, I would rather you point out what struck you as weird instead of asking me to repeat the entire process.

[Imperium]

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

She didn't forget it; the fact that there has not been a no kill night means we haven't been shot at, which is what she finds weird.

[Imperium]

I take it you mean she thought I was pushing her in those first two questions... No I think coming up with only 2 possible scenarios where I'm scum in both is scummy, I mean just for questioning her. I will pressure who I want & I don't expect to be scum read just for doing that. Yet she fired back to my questioning with those two scenarios & then said I was obvious scum. & then what a major reach saying the person I want to lynch has coached me on her. She looks like she's throwing loads of shit to see what sticks to discredit me & try & prevent me from taking a good look at her. Our interactions never progressed beyond that post if you notice. All indirect statements about me but no further interaction from her side. She just shut it down & she's now retreated from the game.

The two scenarios thing didn't happen just because you were questioning her, that's a misrep.
You said she was sucking up and that it didn't make sense based on what you knew of her town game (which implies an attack). 2018
She said that you had a weird definition of sucking up. 2020
You pointed out how you thought she was sucking up and then asked her about her history with Tammy (which is still implying an attack). 2025.
She tells you to read Cyberpunk 2026, explains why 2031.
You continue to talk about why you think Titus is sucking up to Tammy in 2038.
Titus says that you are being dumb and scumreads you in 2041.

You imply that what happened is that you questioned Titus and then she had an inexplicable scumread on you but what really happened is you pushed the sucking up point, she thought your point was weird, you kept pushing, she disliked your attack and started scumreading you which sounds... completely reasonable? Why do you have issue with the exchange up to this point?

I also don't understand where your indirect thing is coming from; the only post that Titus didn't direct at you was 2075, which was a response to Magna asking her for her top three suspects, and the "loads of shit" is similarly baseless when she hasn't pushed you anymore than you pushed her.

[Imperium]

Why weren't you engaged in the game?

Because I wasn't posting?
I go through periods of time when I'm tired after work and tend to do things that don't take as much thinking and focus as mafia does, and I post less during those times. When I fall behind in games, I have a harder time catching up since usually my window of time to post in a particular game isn't overly large. What are you expecting to gain from this question?

Voting for somebody just cos 2 other people are scum reading them is weak justification.

Sure, it would be if that was the only reason she was voting Ranger. That's not the only reason she was voting Ranger, as that post that you quoted said.

You've came at me sneakily with no conviction. Don't just boil it down to voting for me briefly then moving your vote off. You also said you thought I was scum in later interaction with I think it was Nos? which is when I wanted clarification on it as then it pinged me as the same kind of thing I've experienced from scum before (I gave a couple of examples of when). Then when you ignored it you made my scum pile. You see the process there? The day, timing or how overt the attack is has no relevance. I'm showing why it's a scum tell I will ride with.

As I've been saying repeatedly and loudly, no I didn't have any conviction when I voted you; that's why I removed my vote immediately afterwards. Did I think that you were scum? Sure I did! Did I have conviction in it (or a case)? No. I didn't. Because I hadn't posted in the game in a while, I hadn't read in depth for a while. The examples you gave were scum throwing everything and the kitchen sink at you starting from Day 1 while this is a vote that came at the very end of the day when you very clearly were not getting lynched and did not last for more than a couple of hours. I didn't respond to you immediately probably because I didn't see your post; if I did, I didn't respond to it because, again, I was behind as shit and responding to you why I felt inclined to put down a vote on you that didn't last very long didn't interest me nor did I regard it as important. The two situations are completely different, and yet you keep referring back to them as if it should explain why you're completely ignoring context in your attack on me; can you see why this is ridiculous to me?

You are attacking me for not having conviction in my attack on you. I say hey, I didn't have conviction because I didn't read the thread in a long time and wasn't really engaged in the game. You are attacking me for not having questioned you and followed up on my read. I say hey, I didn't follow up with my read because I wasn't that attached to it in the first place thanks to the not being engaged thing. You are attacking me for ignoring you when you questioned me on my reasons for voting you. I point out, again, that I wasn't engaged in the game so of course I'm not going to be on top of everything directed at me (remember how long it took me to answer Magna's question about me townreading RC)?

The day, the timing, the

nature

of the attack on you is context, and ignoring because you don't think it has relevance is something that I don't understand at all because context is what guides everyone's play in this game, and it's something I especially don't understand when you ask questions like "What is your history with Tammy?" and "Why weren't you engaged?" which are literally nonsense questions if you aren't trying to glean context from them.

[Imperium]

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role.

Why?

[Imperium]

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You asked me what I didn't understand and what did I do? I pointed out why I didn't understand. I'm asking you to do the same.

[Imperium]

You didn't correct me when I implied you were town reading Ranger so I was operating on the theory that if you were town reading her & she were to flip scum that wouldn't be in line what I think Rach has done (bus), giving you town credit. But now you appear to be sitting on the fence which I don't like at all. Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't so hard was it?

I think that Ranger is scum. I thought that was obvious based on my recent posting to her that said I wasn't willing to redirect the wagon from her because I wasn't townreading her, and when I told Magna that she was in no danger of being let off the hook today. Why did you think differently?

[Imperium]

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You asked me what I didn't understand and what did I do? I pointed out why I didn't understand. I'm asking you to do the same.

And I don't mean to offend you with this post; you are correct that I asked you to explain your entire process in a place. I think that was a bad move, and I realized it after you responded. My questions were geared towards clearing up what I was confused about in that post; I wasn't trying to ask you about everything in an effort to be snarky.

[Imperium]

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role.

Why?

In general, I am presuming the scumteam sends its towniest looking member to kill. In the event of a failed shot, people presume the scumfuck was the NK or it at least provides a strong argument for such.

Sending someone scummy doesn't work because a failed kill functions as a guilty. No one usually buys scum shoot scummy people.

If that's the case, then Ranger makes absolutely no sense as a face; her predecessors were universally scumread for a while.

[Imperium]

But your argument is that there's a face who submitted the kills instead of us; I'm pointing out that Ranger doesn't make sense as that face based on the status of that slot on Nights 1 and 2, when Ranger wasn't in the game.

[Imperium]

No one makes sense as the face with you really. That's my issue though.

The thing is scum not killing you ALSO makes no sense.

If you were scum, a second player capable of being in your league is very likely.

That doesn't say you are scum or not.

KTS, Nos, Rach all make much more sense as possible faces - why didn't you mention them? Why was Ranger the first person you decided to mention who made sense as a face?

What kills do make sense? Does scum not killing Magna make sense? Does scum not killing Oceanwind make sense?

[Imperium]

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Can we talk about this specifically?
Why do you think that me lurking at this point in the game is alignment indicative?

[Imperium]

Mislynch = probable loss, not a hard concept mate.

Probable loss for town, probable win for scum. This doesn't exactly answer why you think that me lurking is alignment indicative.

[Imperium]

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

Magna, this is the point on Ollie I feel the strongest about. Please consider it overnight.

[Imperium]

I don't think we've resolved anything, but we've made headway. Tomorrow will be a full (and fun!) day.

[Imperium]

What do you think of the timing of Ollie's vote?

I don't mind it. He wasn't around at all today, might have just wanted to go out and get drunk or something. Good night!

Vote: Ranger

[Imperium]

I think that doctor not counter claiming right now is a bad move. We have 7 alive, with 1 confirmed town. Counterclaim means that we'll lynch scum in KTS and we'll have two confirmed town; doctor dies overnight, Magna confirms another player, 5 player LyLo with 2 confirmed town. We lynch in the pool, Magna claims his block ahead of time, instant win as a result.

[Imperium]

Why did you think I was scum at that point?

Had a feeling you were scum.

[Imperium]

You were underwhelming from what I could remember.

[Imperium]

WOAH WOAH WOAH, you said before that you didn't see responding to me as a priority!

The word "probably" means that I am doubting that a bit; don't remember the exact answer, but the answer you are looking for is either didn't see or didn't care.

[Imperium]

Which one? In order to se my post as a priority you have to see it right? If you don't remember why did you not just say that?

I don't remember the exact reason but it's not overly difficult to give you an educated guess.

[Imperium]

You said you thought I was scum. You thought I was scum enough to vote for me... But you weren't attached to it. You said you didn't see responding to me as a priority which now looks like an invention as you have also claimed you might not have seen my post. Does not compute.

I thought you were scum to vote for you for 20 minutes. Or is the time I had my vote on you irrelevant?

You're correct that I gave you two reasons I might not have responded to you. I'm not sure what you want me to add to that particular response.

[Imperium]

Dragging my feet waiting for a counterclaim; it seems clear this isn't going to happen, so will probably get up a post by tonight.

[Imperium]

Initial thoughts are Ollie/Titus will an outside chance of Nosferatu mixed in there somewhere; Rach is easily my strongest townread at this point and I don't really see a world where that slot could be scum.

[Imperium]

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

Magna, this is the point on Ollie I feel the strongest about. Please consider it overnight.

I'd be happy hearing more thoughts on this, especially from Titus/Rach/KTS.

[Imperium]

Sorry for prodding. I haven't felt well. Pulled my leg.

Right now, given Magna and KTS (barring a counter) are conftown with very divergent reads, the best approach would be to get them working together while we all chime in.

Best strategy is to lynch a scum and win the game; let's work on that, yeah?

[Imperium]

Vote: Ollie

[Imperium]

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Can we talk about this specifically?
Why do you think that me lurking at this point in the game is alignment indicative?

I don't like that you called me out for this because it doesn't seem alignment relevant in the smallest sense; you say that I should care about it because it's an important part of the game, but it's an important part of the game regardless of alignment and that seems extraordinarily obvious to me

I also don't like you calling me out for cherrypicking responses when I'm responding to every single thing that you're posting; it's possible that you're just so tunneled on my slot that you refuse to consider context, but if it's a "one of us is being irrational or one of us is scum" type of situation then we need to get it resolved ASAP.

[Imperium]

i dont know how i feel about an ollie wagon

Talk more, drive an alternative.
No one's going to listen to you unless you're actually talking and pushing for things.

[Imperium]

I mean, weren't you the player who wrote an essay about how playing aggressive is the only way to play and how you were a loose aggressive player? What are you doing right now? How are you playing aggressively right now? This is the point of the game where you step up and do some shit so that this is a game that actually stands out in your memory; if you continue doing nothing, then this will be the game that you don't really remember because other players carried you to victory or other players carried you to a loss; where you were a nonentity. If you see town getting endgamed, you won't feel a thing because you didn't put anything on the line to help us win or lose. But if you start fighting and pushing now, this can actually be a game that you looked back and fondly remember as the game where you suddenly found and lynched the scum in LyLo or where you were lolling about the entire game until you turned it on and wrecked the fuck out of the game as a result.

[Imperium]

I have been disengaged from the game at times, but right now is crunch time: today's result could guarantee a town win if we play it right, and I don't want anything but a town win from a scumteam who submits bad nightkill after bad nightkill after bad nightkill, and I don't think that this is a game that we deserve to lose - I don't think that any of the lynches this game have been horrible or atrocious or things we needed to do a lot better, and I don't think any of the nightkills make me say anything but "wow, that nightkill sucked". I don't like losses where I lost because the town imploded on itself or because there were just scummy townies and we lynched the scummy townies before the scummy scum, and that's where this game feels like it's headed and I want to prevent this by any means possible.

[Imperium]

i dont really have the motivation to try

one day is all it takes to win the game and stop this game from being a colossal waste of time.
just one.

[Imperium]

Ranger having a crappy weird on Ollie is a good point to bring up; Ranger did a similar read with LLD in Machina where she was faaaar more town than she should have been.

[Imperium]

Do you have reads on other people, Rach?

I appreciate the vote of confidence, of course, but I need you posting and engaging and being as transparently town as possible in order to shut out the scum.

[Imperium]

i personally dont care if we lose or win, i just play.

but anyways, give me a rap song and if it motivations me enough then maybe.

You want just one song or a playlist?

I'm feeling you're a hype kind of guy, but I don't know whether to go old school or new school or happy or violent or what.

[Imperium]

X Gon' Give It to Ya - DMX
Gimmie the Loot - Biggie
Bonfire - Childish Gambino
Backseat Freestyle - Kendrick Lamar
Wale - Slight Work
679 - Fetty Wap
DJ Snake & Lil Jon - Turn Down for What
Meek Mill - Ima Boss
OutKast - B.O.B.

if none of those work then i'll realize that everything that i've directed towards you is a waste of time.

[Imperium]

was*

[Imperium]

Which leaves you looking at the same Titus/Ollie/Nosferatu pool that I'm looking out. Do any of those stand out to you?

[Imperium]

Hey Ollie - where did your exchange with Titus go? Why did you decide to drop it?

[Imperium]

smokin on the finest dope ayayayaa

[Imperium]

Tammy, when you read up please help me rope Nos or explain where I am wrong.

This seems like a strong read. Where did it go?

Yeah I am not believing Masq is that dumb. It does look like a rolefish. I am only hesitating because I don't want to rush things.

How was Masq saying "unless someone could stop a kill - don't say anything!" a rolefish in any sense of the word? What possible response could there be for a power role who reads what Masq says and somehow manages to out themselves?

Magna,

Ollie is obvscum at this point. His retreat from me when no one bought his push is pretty strong scum. He's pushing a meta read despite not having any background with me to base it on. He also never pushed meta reads till this point.

I'm leaning Nos or Imperium as the last, but I lack confidence there. I thought Now and Masq were obvious partners but Masq flipped town. So that means I should reanalyze Nos. Imperium is Burden of Profiency.

Titus, where did your Ollie obvscum read go?
Can you explain how the hell your "Burden of Proficiency" read makes sense?

@Nosferatu, Are you claiming to be townreading Ranger or something? At some point we're going to lynch Ranger if we're all convinced she's scum. This thread is exhausting as hell. Lynching obvscum AND forcing scum to make the next move is a win in my book. Your no lynching just delays the inevitable. A no lynch should be done when in mylo + there is no obvious scum or obvious unprotected town.

Cool that you're willing to point out the obvious, but where's the part where you're looking for scum?

@Imperium, Umm both? I'm surprised you didn't hit scum. The CoM lynch was null as you had no way of knowing how ABR was acting. But by Day 4 and not a scum lynch, why hasn't Imperium lead one? Why are they alive? Is it something they are missing entirely, or are they just scum? Or both. I'm struggling a bit with it because I also think Imperium scum would off the PRs much sooner unless there was a massive pattern in the dead suspecting you, and I don't see that.

So I'm rather confused at this point.

This whole agonizing whether we're town or not but not taking any steps to sort us doesn't really work for me; Ranger tried something similar when we were lurkfucking it up, but when we started posting and fighting back, she backed down. If you actually thought that there was a pretty great chance that we were scum (and controlling the game to the extent that we have been), I can't help but think that you'd be pushing it a bit harder so you could make our position a bit less comfortable. Am I wrong?

I feel better about RachMarie but my conftown read doesn't and I don't get why.

"I have a townread. The confirmed town doesn't agree with my townread so now I don't have a townread."
Why? Magua being conftown doesn't mean that he's infallible; why not engage with him instead of burning your townread to the ground entirely? Where did the confidence on Ollie go in this readslist?

which is probably a small part of the explanation for why we aren't dead

Also helping is that MagnaofIllusion says he jailkept you every night, a detail Titus specifically asked for, yet has apparently conveniently forgotten in her accusation against you.

She didn't forget it; the fact that there has not been a no kill night means we haven't been shot at, which is what she finds weird.

This. Or that scum Imperium's team never sent her for the kill.

That brings me back to if Imperium is scum, the team needs a second face type role. That would lead to Ranger scum.

The weird kills suggest Ranger scum.

Ranger hasn't been in the game the whole time. Why do you think I would let Ranger decide kills over me when I've been running the shit out of the game if scum?

[Imperium]

if pirus and crips all got along, they prolly gun me down by the end of the song
sing like the whole city go against me
every time i'm in the street i hear

YAK YAK YAK YAK

[Imperium]

so join us in voting for Ollie

rach, we need you talking - what are your titus and nos reads?

[Imperium]

RANGER TRIED TO MISLYNCH TITUS THEY'RE TOWN IT'S OLLIE AND NOS CONF

Ranger tried to mislynch you.

[Imperium]

if pirus and crips all got along, they prolly gun me down by the end of the song
sing like the whole city go against me
every time i'm in the street i hear

YAK YAK YAK YAK

Brace yourself I'm bout' to take you on a trip down memory lane
This is not a song about moving crack or sling cocaine

For the bread and butter I leave motherfuckers in the gutter

GIMMIE THE LOOT GIMMIE THE LOOT

[Imperium]

fuck i love this song

[Imperium]

Need to look at their ISOs have not yet had a chance

Got a little bit of time now?

[Imperium]

RANGER TRIED TO MISLYNCH TITUS THEY'RE TOWN IT'S OLLIE AND NOS CONF

Ranger tried to mislynch you.

ye and im town, so that makes titus town as well

you were the #1 ranger push

the reason i thought it might not make you town was because it happened when ranger had absolutely no chance of getting the push through, and titus was her #2 in that situation which means that it doubly doesn't go through, just scum talking before they die

[Imperium]

this is nacho btw

[Imperium]

yeah but nosferatu ended up pushing no lynch when ranger was obviously getting lynched

isn't that the point when you cut ties and bus? why do something different completely?

[Imperium]

Wow you're bad. Do whatever the fuck you want, the only thing that's gonna teach you is failure.

VOTE: Ranger
I'll sheep you since you're god or whatever.

like nos's vote on ranger was essentially just a middle finger up to magna after they spent the entire of day kind of defending Ranger but mostly pushing no lynch

[Imperium]

fair enough, i need to find another song

[Imperium]

rap's stepfather: yeah you hate me but you will respect is a fucking excellent line though
just doesn't do it for me right now

[Imperium]

wouldn't you consider that cutting ties and bussing?

anyway, I lost motivation again, can't do longer posts

not really, cutting ties is more when the day begins titus and ollie going "yeah ranger is so confirmed scum today" versus nosferatu telling magna that he's not his real dad and still not even calling ranger scum

[Imperium]

do you see my point there or am i not explaining it well still?

[Imperium]

What about Titus?
Do you have thoughts on Nos's posts that aren't interactions based?

[Imperium]

I'm asking the second question because it's easy to bias ourselves into seeing what we want to see when looking for interactions while looking at behavior independent of that is usually pretty helpful.

[Imperium]

do you know how to do side by side ISOs?

[Imperium]

If you go to the "Display posts by user" option at the bottom of the screen, there's a little plus by the dropdown menu which lets you add another user to the ISO. So, if you wanted to ISO the Bella/Virtue/Titus slot all at once, you'd press the plus button twice and then choose Titus, Virtue, Bellaphant in the three drop down menus that appear.

[Imperium]

I'm still here! I'll probably post more content tomorrow.

[Imperium]

I'm not sure how much you'll see from me as I've been taking a break from this site. I'm going to try to get back into the game, we'll see.

But, I did want to point one thing out in case people didn't notice it. Ocean Wind was recently banned as he was found to be the alt of F-16 Fighting Falcon, who was the player that I was thinking he might be who was banned for harassment. So that can explain some of his behavior. It doesn't explain why he seemed to know Snarky was town in twilight (though him believing he didn't troll is possible enough), but it might explain his terrible case on lowell and some of his other reads. He could have entirely made a bad case on lowell just because I was reading him as a townlean, similar thing for the hounding us and magna about our reads on each other. I'm not saying he was trying to throw the game as he did look like he was trying to figure it out, but I just don't think he can help himself.

Anyway I think that should be taken into consideration while any read is made on that slot. I always read rachmarie as scum; I might have correctly town read her only once, and I think she looks town here.

I'll try to get current in the game or do something, but beyond talking with Nacho about my thoughts, I'm not sure how much you'll actually see from me.

[Imperium]

I don't disagree with you on Titus-scum, but I am not really willing to switch from a stronger scumread with more support to a weaker scumread with less support unless you have a decent case for Ollie!town that's more complicated than "I might be biased because I'm OMGUSing". I don't disagree that there was bias strewn all in my read of him at times (particularly when we were in the middle of our wall battle), but my feelings haven't changed at all despite being decently removed from the situation. Did you ever get the chance to think about the scumtell that I posted right before night?

[Imperium]

In particular, this one?

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

Magna, this is the point on Ollie I feel the strongest about. Please consider it overnight.

I'd be happy hearing more thoughts on this, especially from Titus/Rach/KTS.

[Imperium]

Titus, is there a reason why you're ignoring the game as hard as you are right now?

[Imperium]

Titus, is there a reason why you're ignoring the game as hard as you are right now?

You try having my life. Yeah I am behind. I know. Did anyone do the colored VCs?

Saying that the reason why you've been avoiding making any catch up effort whatsoever is because of RL feels disingenuous when you've been posting elsewhere.

[Imperium]

Magna: If Titus is scum and Ollie is town, I see no reason why she hasn't hammered him yet; scum lose if we lynch scum today and there's a very real chance of the wagon swinging back into her; why would she hesitate in hammering after your vote on her, especially when she was calling Ollie obvscum yesterday and thus could probably get away with it without scumclaiming?

[Imperium]

I just think that you're assigning Ollie far too many town points for a push on a partner that wasn't in the greatest of positions in the first place. Ollie didn't push Ranger when it mattered and the only other thing that he did that you thought you looked town for doing was mentioning everyone in his earliest readslist.

[Imperium]

Nosferatu - Why do you think Rach is scum? Why would she push a lynch that would lose her the game?

[Imperium]

Ranger doesn't bus.

?

Subject: MAFIACEPTION GAME OVER! Flawless Victory!

Well, I said it before: I think it's based around what people

perceive

as the slip. If there's a wagon, town.
If not...scum.
And so far...I'm not seeing a wagon.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooo...
VOTE: Porochaz.

Ranger bussed Porochaz, who was her scumpartner.

[Imperium]

First I would like you to explain the bolded in very clear detail.

There are currently 7 alive.

If scum is lynched, then there are 6 alive: Jailkeeper, Doctor, 3 VTs, 1 Mafia.
Worst case scenario, you target a VT, scum kills doctor. VT is confirmed as town.

The next day, there will be 5 alive: 2 unconfirmed VTs, 1 confirmed VT, Jailkeeper, Mafia.
Worst case, we lynch a VT, you target another VT (target is announced beforehand), mafia kills you.

The next day, there will be 3 alive: 2 confirmed VTs, 1 mafia. VTs lynch the mafia.