Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[Alchemist21]

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) Check my Wiki for on-site; there have been many. Also quite a few off-site, though not as much as here.

2) Depends on how busy I am irl, how well I can keel up with a game, and how active the game is as a whole.

3) No.

Also

VOTE: Thesp

He designed the vote counter, he could use it against us! D:

[Alchemist21]

I can see Firebringer being scum here.

VOTE: Firebringer

@RadiantCowbells, I don't see how Thesp would be a parner to him. Yes, he did an RQS after you voted Fire, but it was Thesp's first vote in the game, and it looks like the kind of thing someone would post in their first post without regard to anything that had happened already.

[Alchemist21]

He asked everyone to respond. That doesn't mean he wanted them to stop talking about other things. The first two questions weren't that bad, as knowing how experienced and active a player generally is can be useful at times.

[Alchemist21]

@alchemist mind explaining your scum read on fire?

I think Cowbells is right about Fire. He's been pretty dodgy and defensive. I also don't really like the way he backed down from his Cowbells vote because it looked like he just wanted to avoid the trouble.

[Alchemist21]

RV TIME!

VOTE: AllAlone For being lonely. Hey, guess what else is lonely? The noose, of course.

VOTE: Thesp

VOTE: Firebringer

Because fire is dangerous.

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) This is my third on this site, I have player many in person, 100+ games of ToS and played 3 on another site
2) idk pretty active
3) Yes

Forgot my RVS
VOTE: nether for have a pinocio like avatar

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) I don't really keep track.
2) In my one completed game on this site I had 58 posts over roughly 27 days.
3) Check your role pm, all the scum are listed in it.

VOTE: Quaroath because I can't pronounce it in my head

1) Third game here, a few times IRL and ToS way too much.
2) eh... depends if interesting things are happening. It's hard to force miniscule reads, esp. D1
3) irl, probably. Here, no.

VOTE: Quaroath because I can't pronounce it in my head

1) Third game here, a few times IRL and ToS way too much.
2) eh... depends if interesting things are happening. It's hard to force miniscule reads, esp. D1
3) irl, probably. Here, no.

OMG US

Kwar-oath, FYI

VOTE: eventi

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) I have 7 completed games on this site. I played a few times in real life when I was 10 or so, I don't remember them very well though.

2) It depends on what else I have going on at the time. I'd say expect a post or two most calendar days.

3) Yes.

VOTE: duppin

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) Check my Wiki for on-site; there have been many. Also quite a few off-site, though not as much as here.

2) Depends on how busy I am irl, how well I can keel up with a game, and how active the game is as a whole.

3) No.

Also

VOTE: Thesp

He designed the vote counter, he could use it against us! D:

These are non-Thesp posts from when Cowbells voted Firebringer to the post on Page 2 where Cowbell brings up suspicion on Thesp. There are numerous examples of people RVS'ing and responding to the RQS questions without addressing Cowbell's vote on Firebringer. I don't get why Cowbells is singling out Thesp here, because aside from actually starting the RQS he did nothing unusual.

[Alchemist21]

The first two posts I quoted were made before Thesp's. What's their excuse?

And you should know that if people wanted to address your vote they would do it even if there was another topic being discussed. There's nothing that prevents multiple topics from being discussed at once. You're trying ridiculously hard to try linking Thesp with Firebringer when your reasoning for doing so makes no sense.

[Alchemist21]

My density is 1.08 g/mL.

Suppose Firebringer flips Town. What do you make of Thesp's post in that case?

Why is All Alone's vote bad?

[Alchemist21]

Suppose Firebringer flips Town. What do you make of Thesp's post in that case?

Still bad for trying to shove us back in RVS.

So you're going to scumread thesp regardless of Firebringer's flip.

Why is All Alone's vote bad?

Because it's a naked vote onto one of my other scumreads right after I FoSed one of the scum.

You are aware scum very frequently RVS each other, yes?

What? It's bad because he voted Thesp after you voted Firebringer? That's crappy reasoning.
Also, someone actually looked into games a while back and found scum don't often RVS each other. The site meta may have shifted a bit because of that thread, but it's certainly not common enough to automatically assume that if someone flips scum their RVS vote is their partner.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Firebringer may still be scum, but Cowbells is trying unnaturally hard to paint Thesp as scummy no matter what, and her logic is reachy as hell.

[Alchemist21]

So you're going to scumread thesp regardless of Firebringer's flip.

obviously?

See, if you were Town you'd be voting Thesp in that case, not Firebringer.

Like, Thesp's deliberate attempt to undo progress made in the game is far scummier than Firebringer's wishy washiness or defensiveness.

Alchemist is being so nonsense right now that I'd be happy speedlynching this even if it flipped town.

I think everyone will be able to see for themselves you're the nonsensical one here.

[Alchemist21]

@RadiantCowbells

You're town and I'll be against your mislynch.
Lets please focus on scumhunting.

@Alchemist21

If

Firebringer

is scum (you classified it as 'may be') why would

RadiantCowbells

vote him and push him?

Early distancing. I'm wondering how likely it is they could be scum together though. If Firebringer is noobscum, I can easily see bantering with a buddy then backing down before things got too serious, but I don't think noobscum are more likely to dodge a buddy's questions. I'll need to see more from Firebringer to know what to make of him.

[Alchemist21]

Post 79 Calls Alchemist Scum and says I am not scum, that was fast. Post 88 quickly says that alchemist isn't scum but is a asset to scum and wants to lynch regardless. Anti town heavy here.

You train on both me and Alchemist after we voted you. OMGUS

Your reasoning for me is faulty, your reasoning for Alchemist is non existant and you even now say he is town. Pick one. If you think I am scum vote me, if you think its Alchemist vote him, like honestly you are the worst town if you are one, which I doubt.

I suggest everyone move onto Radiant train, he is likely evil.

Then you should vote RC too.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, if you liked my points on RC, AND think that types who attack your RQS like she did tend to be scum, then why aren't you voting her instead of someone who only has a single post in the game?

I'd also like to remind everyone that RC is currently voting someone she thinks is Town over Thesp, who she said is scummy regardless of Firebringer's flip.

On a similar note, Duppin said he agreed with RC about Thesp and said RC should be voting Thesp, but he himself didn't vote Thesp.

Looking back through Firebringer's ISO, I think he's Town. His aggressive stances read like noobTown trying to be more confident and assertive with their pushes.

[Alchemist21]

As pointed out, Alch voted first. So it obv isn't omgus. VOTE: netherspite

Oh well he voted first, but they had extended argument before that happened so I still would consider his vote more emotion-based than logic-based.

===

Anyway, latest argument between

RadiantCowbells

and

Firebringer

makes me no longer liking my vote on

Firebringer

. It feels TvT.

I'll move my vote to

eventi

as he looks like an opportunistic scum.

VOTE: eventi

Actually read my posts in that argument then still tell me it wasn't logic-based.

[Alchemist21]

@Dominator, care to explain your scumreads?

I may have been scumreading RC partly for playstyle. There are still parts of her early play that don't add up, and I still have a mild scumread on the slot, but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

[Alchemist21]

^See, this is why I'm calling out Duppin. So far he has a trend of not posting until he's mentioned.

[Alchemist21]

A trend? Sure, how about looking at it this way. I am usually a very active player, I check the thread a lot and post a lot. However I am limited to my phone at the moment because I am on vacation till friday.
Perhaps I have been lurking yes, but here is a surprise for you, there are players with even less posts than me.

I dislike writing on my phone, so I only do it when I feel I need to. When people were pressuring RC I wanted to tell people not to, because I town read her and thought it was a silly train. I didn't share my scum reads before because I wanted to wait until friday so I could do it properly. I respond to you calling me out because I actually read the thread.

I'm not as concerned by the fact that there are people with less posts as I am by the fact that you've beetlejuiced pretty hard, and you just tried to deflect onto those people with less posts.

I await your reads list.

[Alchemist21]

So PMysterious you have any reads? This feels like your first post in the game. I had to actually look back and see that you were in the game.

Been very lurking this game.

So far I think Nether and Raidant are most likely scum or at least one. If only one then I have no clue on the other. Perhaps dupin.

Anyways going to V/LA till Sunday. Will try to post 1 or 2 times till then, but no promises.

OMGUS is strong in this one.

Where is the OMGUS in this post?

So far I think Nether and Raidant are most likely scum or at least one. If only one then I have no clue on the other. Perhaps dupin.

Firebringer seems to be trying to find a scum pair. If he were scum, he would definitely be aware that there are in fact three scum in this setup:

3 of you will receive

Welcome,

ActionDan

, you are a

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• Factional Kill
  - The Mafia may kill one player per Night. This may be done in addition to other actions.
  
• Factional Communication
  - If there are other Mafia-aligned players, there will be a Mafia QT that can be used pre-game and during the Night.

Win Condition

You win when all town players are eliminated and at least one Mafia-aligned player is still alive (or nothing can prevent the same).

I think this is a legitimate town-slip from Firebringer.

Maybe. I don't think it's as telling as his overall play has been, but regardless Firebringer is my strongest Townread.

My slot didn't RVS?

Steelers fans tend to play rough, and mafia play rough, so...
VOTE: TheDominator37

OK, got that out of my system.
UNVOTE:

Catching up, 10 pages shouldn't be too bad.

Good to see you again. Your entrance posts make me feel comfortable about your slot for now.

[Alchemist21]

I can't defend you make no sense
All I can say is I'm not scum

He makes a lot of sense actually.

@All Alone

TheDominator

is obvious scum since beginning of the game.
I'm just trying to find more obscure scum because we can always lynch

TheDominator37

. I doubt town will need any more to be convinced lynching him.

This is pretty much how I feel.

Why do you have Alchemist and Firebringer in the town column?

Firebringer:
I liked his interactions with RC.
When TheDominator (my scum read) stated he had no reads, Firebringer asked him if he didn't find RC suspicious. I do not believe they are aligned, so that means Firebringer would have to be town then.
It is obviously possible both of them are scum, but I would be very surprised if a scum asked his partner d1 to sheep his vote.

I do however not agree with any of his reads and that is concerning. I don't believe he is aligned with TheDominator, but he could definitely be with eventi (he "defended" him earlier.)
This makes eventi a very interesting lynch, but if TheDominator is town he deserves to die for voting on himself.

Alchemist:
I had him pegged as town because of his initial defense of RC and I really liked him questioning RC. This was mainly due to him bringing up the exact same thing I wanted to (RC voting on Firebringer instead of you).
He changed his mind on RC and I felt like he was revaluating and scumhunting. His play seemed very townish to me.

I do realise I have to reconsider my read on him though, because if RC and Firebringer are both town (which I am inclined to believe at the moment), he is actually fairly suspicious. I could also see him being with TheDom or eventi. But overall I think his play has been town.

I also have a town read on you (Thesp) simply because we scumread the same people.

I'd like to see more posts with fleshed out reasoning like this. Can you flesh out your reads that aren't based on associatives?

Also, Alchemist's vote on Duppin was grasping at straws. Maybe he's seeing something I'm not. I looked through his Iso expecting some glaringly obvious statement that he was scum, but the rest was pretty towny. I agree with his analysis on Thesp/RC. What's up with the Duppin vote, Alchemist? Why's he scummier than anyone else in the game?

Something felt off the first time he just popped in immediately after being mentioned, and he did it again when I voted him. I didn't really care for his response to my reasoning because it reeked of lurkscum, but if the vacation thing was true and he starts posting more then hopefully I'll get a more accurate read on him.

[Alchemist21]

Something felt off the first time he just popped in immediately after being mentioned, and he did it again when I voted him. I didn't really care for his response to my reasoning because it reeked of lurkscum, but if the vacation thing was true and he starts posting more then hopefully I'll get a more accurate read on him.

I understand that, but why does he have your vote and not just your suspicion? As of day 1 conditions, he seems unlikely to be scum, if he continues lurking it's probably worthy of consideration.

Added pressure. What makes you think he's unlikely to be scum?

[Alchemist21]

I don't see what's scummy about Eventi. I even think his last post reads as frustrated Town because people don't understand the main point of his argument.

I have no idea what Dominator is doing. In my experience, sloppy players like him have been Town.

[Alchemist21]

After re-reading ISO's, both Duppin and RC are null for me. Duppin looks like he's going to pick up his activity and lay out his thoughts more, so he should be easier to read as the game progresses. I actually understand some of RC's latest posts, and the more I look over their early play the more I think I misread them for playstyle.

VOTE: Netherspite
The way he's defending RC and pushing Eventi is scummy to me. I normally wouldn't think much of a player defending 1 slot and attacking another, but he's misrepped a couple of times so I'm suspecting scum shennanigans on his part.

I could also vote PMysterious. They voted Eventi for pressure, then later they unvoted without voting another slot, but maintained the eventi and dominator scumreads. That read as trying to softpush the slots while staying off the lynches in my opinion.

I also noticed Pistachion's only vote this whole game was his RVS vote.

@pistachion, could you explain why you haven't made a serious vote?

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist21

I was what? Misrepping? You must be kidding.
Care to elaborate?

You said my vote was emotional-based and OMGUS whenit was neither of those things, and you tried to water down Eventi's argument into something based on time zones when it wasn't about time zones at all.

[Alchemist21]

On the contrary, Netherspite needs more votes.

[Alchemist21]

Act like an idiot get reactions and it worked amazing
I still need to look at who soft read me
Eventi and alchemist definitely scum and rc and nether are definitely town

For future reference, this is called Slayer's Gambit, and people will hate you for it.

[Alchemist21]

Ok that was a fun gambit. Found who scum is
Definitely alcamist
And 2 out of the following: thesp, fire, eventi
Nether is obv town

What makes you think he's obvTown?

[Alchemist21]

^Why aren't you voting anyone?

[Alchemist21]

Well where are you at in your thoughts currently?

[Alchemist21]

Act like an idiot get reactions and it worked amazing
I still need to look at who soft read me
Eventi and alchemist definitely scum and rc and nether are definitely town

For future reference, this is called Slayer's Gambit, and people will hate you for it.

Why do people hate it? It catches scum

Not always. Sometimes it just distracts the players into scumreading and lynching the player. Kinda like what's happening to you now. People hate it for the distraction it causes.

[Alchemist21]

I'm liking Nether less and less as time goes on for all this emphasis on information from lynches.

Sadly, he's proven town in twilight

I agree with this. The twilight posts point to Netherspite as Town, and even more so to RC as Town.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

[Alchemist21]

Okay, I'm resetting my reads. The Firebringer kill disturbs me a lot and I can't think of any reason why he would be the kill over half of the players still alive.

That'll happen sometime tomorrow.

This is the same for me - I have a lot of catching up to do after being out of town and my anniversary yesterday (13 years!). I'll try to read up, but the Firebringer kill is one I wouldn't have predicted. (Maybe avoiding a doc protect? I'm happy not to have the distraction in any case.)

I have seen several people saying that some others were confirmed in twilight by reactions to things - I'd love to hear why, as I didn't have any reactions or feelings as to anyone being confirmed.

When Eventi claimed scum in Twilight, Nether and RC caeeied on trying to form reads based on associatives that he was scum. Tbh Nether hammed it up a bit, but considering his overall play it wasn't surprising, and RC just completely fell for it and had the most genuine reaction.

[Alchemist21]

Oh god it's finally happening...

I'm starting to read Nether's posts in a Lemongrab voice.

[Alchemist21]

RC I think you just confused Duppin with Persivul.

[Alchemist21]

Honestly, I'm getting confused between you two myself because of the avatars.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, no. Aside from the two players I think look Town from their twilight posts, the reactions look pretty null to me.

[Alchemist21]

town

Cowbells
Netherspite
Dominator
duppin
Alchemist

Ankamius
pistachi0n
Persivul

davesaz
Thesp

scum

All Alone

, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

---

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

I keep coming back to this, and every time I read it this feels like he's making an excuse to vote rather than hunting scum. And whether or not TheDominator was "gambiting", there is a difference in his play from the point of his "reveal" onward (even if there's not much change in sentence structure). There's nothing about Alchemist21 that makes me really think he's town.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I don't hate the Persivul wagon and wouldn't fight it, but I definitely don't want to see a TheDominator37 lynch today. I'm enjoying everything Ankamius is saying, but still don't have a solid read on him yet (probably pro-town?). I like pistachi0n.

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts. Show me what shift you think is there, because as it is now I think Dom was just making up his story about gambiting.

[Alchemist21]

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts. Show me what shift you think is there, because as it is now I think Dom was just making up his story about gambiting.

Pre-post #369, he's haphazard with voting and suspicions, voting seemingly arbitrarily and without stated reason. After that, he seems considerably more focused with suspicions and votes. Sure, his sentence structure and punctuation remain poor, but I don't think that's what he considers "the gambit" (and I'd be surprised if that's what you thought as well).

---

I don't think the cop discussion is particularly useful right now, and has a real danger of being counter-productive (if it hasn't been already).

He's still witholdong his reasons. When people claim this gambit, you see them start having more clearly-laid out thought in their posts.

[Alchemist21]

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts. Show me what shift you think is there, because as it is now I think Dom was just making up his story about gambiting.

Pre-post #369, he's haphazard with voting and suspicions, voting seemingly arbitrarily and without stated reason. After that, he seems considerably more focused with suspicions and votes. Sure, his sentence structure and punctuation remain poor, but I don't think that's what he considers "the gambit" (and I'd be surprised if that's what you thought as well).

---

I don't think the cop discussion is particularly useful right now, and has a real danger of being counter-productive (if it hasn't been already).

He's still witholdong his reasons. When people claim this gambit, you see them start having more clearly-laid out thought in their posts.

This is a different claim than you made earlier.

---

Pistachi0n, I didn't get this impression at all - I thought the transition was very normal. Can you point to where you got the feeling from Persivul that "hammering eventi is scum"?

Per just hammer eventi already

There's a day and a half left and I just replaced in.

I'm taking an eventi hammer as a scum claim at this point.

Fair enough, I had forgotten that quote. Would it have been better for Persivul not to hammer, and us no-lynch yesterday?

---

you're revealed as the f*cking idiot that you are.

There's no need for this.

---

Still happy with my vote on Alchemist21. As an aside, this is what the votecount probably looks like, let me know if I've got you listed wrong, as I've not double-checked hardly any of it:

Persivul

(3): pistachi0n, RadiantCowbells, Ankamius

Alchemist21

(2): Thesp, TheDominator37

pistachi0n

(1): Persivul

TheDominator37

(1): Alchemist21

Thesp

(1): All Alone

Not Voting

(3): Netherspite, davesaz, duppin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-10 18:30:00)

How is it a different claim from earlier?

Anyway, since there's apparantly a cop innocent on Dom, then I was wrong about him.

VOTE: All Alone

I'm still not sure who else on Eventi's wagon would be scum, but looking off the wagon, I think there's at least 1 between Ank and All Alone.

[Alchemist21]

Thesp, you do realize I pointed out that specific thing had not changed because that's what you claim had changed in Dom's ISO, right? There is no inconsistency in what I said.

[Alchemist21]

RC, I still don't know if you mean to be voting Persivul or Duppin.

[Alchemist21]

Nvm, missed your vote change to Dave. My bad.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, what is your case on me beyond the non-existant contradiction?

[Alchemist21]

You haven't given a case on me either beyond the results of your supposed gambit.

[Alchemist21]

And yes, I meant to be voting Persy.

Duppin's logic sucked but I don't scumread him at all for it.

I do not like at all how Persy kept fishing for a claim from Duppin.

But I really wanna wagon Daves or Pistachi0n right now.

Why do you want Dave or Pistachion wagons?

[Alchemist21]

prods sent to davesaz and alchemist21

hmm it didn't go through to either. No matter

I got the prod and saw it in my inbox.

[Alchemist21]

Omg alc is lurking now
I'm 90% sure he is mafia

Please clarify what you mean by lurking.

You haven't given a case on me either beyond the results of your supposed gambit.

Got reads? Please share.

He hadn't posted for 48 hours and then BOOM he was prodded and is active for 10 minutes and goes back to lurking

You know what prods are for, right?

[Alchemist21]

Omg alc is lurking now
I'm 90% sure he is mafia

Please clarify what you mean by lurking.

You haven't given a case on me either beyond the results of your supposed gambit.

Got reads? Please share.

Responding to this and to the last bit of Duppin's post. I still believe RC and Nether are Town. Scum are almost never all on the D1 mislynch, and PoE leaves candidates of Ank or All Alone. I'll re-analyze the Eventi wagon when I can get enough focus to do so, but for now I'm going to continue observing Ank/Alone.

Gun to my head right now, if we assume Duppin is a cop with an innocent on Dom, then I'd say scum on the Eventi wagon are in Pers and Thesp. Can't remember who else was on that wagon right now, and I want to actually look at the votes before forming a hard conclusion on that.

[Alchemist21]

prods sent to davesaz and alchemist21

hmm it didn't go through to either. No matter

I got the prod and saw it in my inbox.

Scratch this. It was the other prod I was thinking of.

[Alchemist21]

I haven't been able to carve out as much time as I like, but I would like to keep the game moving. Sorry about that.

btw, Thesp wagon is terrible.

Agreed!

---

@Thesp, what is your case on me beyond the non-existant contradiction?

I'm less interested in the contradiction, and more interested in that it feels like you are looking for a reason to vote rather than looking for scum. Your D1 votes are almost all on people I consider likely to be town. Today, I haven't got the feeling that you're scum hunting at all. This feeling hasn't changed.

---

I feel like I'm missing some answers to some questions I asked previously, but I need to go back and check soon. Sorry I don't have the time to do so now. :/

I'll admit my D2 play has been shit because I haven't been focused. If you get that impression from my D1 then I don't know what to tell you. Having conflicting reads isn't a reason to scumread me, especially considering which of us was on and which was off the Eventi wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist in regards to 821, what are you seeing in Ank and All Alone that I'm not?

Tbh I'm not seeing much from either of them, (and I actually think Ank looks kinda Town), but I'm townreading everyone else that was off the wagon and it's a smaller pool of suspects than the players on the wagon. My All Alone vote was partially for pressure, but that didn't do anything. I'll look back at the Eventi wagon tonight (about 4-5 hours from now) and re-analyze those votes. Until then my vote's staying here.

[Alchemist21]

Do spoilers not work on this site?

You want to spoiler= /spoiler

A normal spoiler tag gives black censor bars.

[Alchemist21]

@Davesaz, did you ever read Eventi's 410? You never commented on it if you did.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, why exactly were you scumreading Eventi? Was it more than the early call-out?

[Alchemist21]

Yeah. Looking through Alchemist's iso, it seems like he was scum-hunting way more in day 1 than today. So I don't agree with Thesp's argument about it.

Alchemist was pretty strong yesterday.

I beg to differ

About what and why?

You said alc looked strong on day one. You couldn't be more wromg

I said he was scum hunting more on day one,

I didn't say he looked strong.

Wait, what? How does someone manage to contradict themselves this hard in just a few posts? Lol

[Alchemist21]

@alchemist mind explaining your scum read on fire?

I think Cowbells is right about Fire. He's been pretty dodgy and defensive. I also don't really like the way he backed down from his Cowbells vote because it looked like he just wanted to avoid the trouble.

@RadiantCowbells

You're town and I'll be against your mislynch.
Lets please focus on scumhunting.

@Alchemist21

If

Firebringer

is scum (you classified it as 'may be') why would

RadiantCowbells

vote him and push him?

Early distancing. I'm wondering how likely it is they could be scum together though. If Firebringer is noobscum, I can easily see bantering with a buddy then backing down before things got too serious, but I don't think noobscum are more likely to dodge a buddy's questions. I'll need to see more from Firebringer to know what to make of him.

Suppose Firebringer flips Town. What do you make of Thesp's post in that case?

Still bad for trying to shove us back in RVS.

So you're going to scumread thesp regardless of Firebringer's flip.

Why is All Alone's vote bad?

Because it's a naked vote onto one of my other scumreads right after I FoSed one of the scum.

You are aware scum very frequently RVS each other, yes?

What? It's bad because he voted Thesp after you voted Firebringer? That's crappy reasoning.
Also, someone actually looked into games a while back and found scum don't often RVS each other. The site meta may have shifted a bit because of that thread, but it's certainly not common enough to automatically assume that if someone flips scum their RVS vote is their partner.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Firebringer may still be scum, but Cowbells is trying unnaturally hard to paint Thesp as scummy no matter what, and her logic is reachy as hell.

@Dominator, care to explain your scumreads?

I may have been scumreading RC partly for playstyle. There are still parts of her early play that don't add up, and I still have a mild scumread on the slot, but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

After re-reading ISO's, both Duppin and RC are null for me. Duppin looks like he's going to pick up his activity and lay out his thoughts more, so he should be easier to read as the game progresses. I actually understand some of RC's latest posts, and the more I look over their early play the more I think I misread them for playstyle.

VOTE: Netherspite
The way he's defending RC and pushing Eventi is scummy to me. I normally wouldn't think much of a player defending 1 slot and attacking another, but he's misrepped a couple of times so I'm suspecting scum shennanigans on his part.

I could also vote PMysterious. They voted Eventi for pressure, then later they unvoted without voting another slot, but maintained the eventi and dominator scumreads. That read as trying to softpush the slots while staying off the lynches in my opinion.

I also noticed Pistachion's only vote this whole game was his RVS vote.

@pistachion, could you explain why you haven't made a serious vote?

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

Through his fist 30 posts this is all the scum hunting he did
Comparable to now

Here's a fun little game. Go through your own ISO and do the same thing.

[Alchemist21]

@Duppin, did you have reasons for scumreading Eventi beyond his RC vote?

[Alchemist21]

Half of me really wants to vote Pistachion for that recent bit, but the other half of me can't think of why it would actually come from scum.

If she's buddying me she was still defending me regardless of when she said I looked strong vs I was doing more scumhunting. It doesn't look like she's using it as a reason to push Thesp or Dom either (well, maybe Thesp to a small extent, but in the context here, I don't really see it).

Either in 2 hours she actually forgot her specific wording or she's purposefully trying to be confrontational with Dom, and the latter reason would be the only one that would mean she's scum.

[Alchemist21]

@Davesaz, did you ever read Eventi's 410? You never commented on it if you did.

Yes, I read 410. 459 was posted after reading it.
The re-read I mentioned in 459 led to 832.

I don't see how either of the latter 2 relate back to 410. 410 was Thesp saying what he found manipulative about Thesp.

[Alchemist21]

Wait, what? How does someone manage to contradict themselves this hard in just a few posts?

I derped, sorry. I thought I had said something else? I argued with Dominator over semantics even though I think he's town because I was in the mood to post.

Either in 2 hours she actually forgot her specific wording or she's purposefully trying to be confrontational with Dom, and the latter reason would be the only one that would mean she's scum.

Both are sort of true, I didn't remember using the word strong but I was also ready and able to be active on the thread but nobody else was posting.

I was posting. My 901 was even a response to your earlier post. You didn't feel like that would have been more productive than a semantics argument?

[Alchemist21]

*feel like responding to that would have been*

[Alchemist21]

The way Thesp :highfive: s everyone who agrees with him, and always adds me into every decision is what I find manipulative; I've since moved my vote to TheDominator since I don't think there's anyone else looking at Thesp at all.

Explanation of Thesp from eventi.

Some quick notes

going from memory

.
I can accept correct+reasonable does not imply town.

Will need to re-read Thesp in that light

. But I don't see a wagon being possible today.

Going from memory of that post, I make a note to re-read Thesp.

Taking my own advice, high activity level doesn't imply town (I have been in many games where scum was in the top 5 posters either in terms of #posts or post length).

This prompted me to take a look,

and Thesp's activity is a lot more superficial than I remembered.

VOTE: Thesp

After re-reading Thesp, I don't like his posting and vote him.

So 410 didn't make you reconsider your vote on Eventi? From what I got out of your vote on Eventi, you were voting him because you didn't agree with his reasons for scumreading Thesp.

[Alchemist21]

@Dom, the point is you aren't doing anything and continue to do so. My D1 alone has more content than your entire ISO.

I've already said I haven't been able to focus on the game for a while, and if you don't believe me you and anyone else can compare my posting rate here with that in the Space Dandy game that recently ended and see my activity drops in both games at the same time.

[Alchemist21]

If I switched now it would be to Persivul, because honestly I think he's more likely than Thesp to turn up scum. There's still 4 days left though, and I want to see if the replacement comes in and has anything to say. If we get 48 hours from deadline and still don't see a replacement then I'll move regardless.

[Alchemist21]

What if me and duppin are scum buds

The NK should clear this up. If Duppin is Town he'll almost certainly die tonight. The only reason to keep him alive would be to cast doubt on Dominator and Duppin to try and lynch them, but it's not worth them risking the extra investigation.

[Alchemist21]

Huh? You mean bussing?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Persivul

[Alchemist21]

This'll be pretty bad if Thesp and Pers are both Town.

[Alchemist21]

Officially, how much longer do we have until deadline? I'm willing to switch as well provided there's still time.

[Alchemist21]

P.S. If I swotch I have a preference for Dave over All Alone. I agree with RC's point about Dave's list about Duppin probably being Cop but still scumreading Dom.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Davesaz

[Alchemist21]

I'm still sure that RC and Nether are Town. Dom is cop cleared. I know I'm Town. That's 4/9 players I'm not worrying about now.

If I'm correct about RC and Nether, then the scumteam is within the remaining 5:

Dave, Thesp, Ank, Pistachion, All Alone

If tomorrow is Lylo if we lynch Town today, then I don't expect scum would have voted each other yet this Day (it's an assumption I'm willing to work with). In that case, we can probably rule out Pistachion being scum with Dave and All Alone. We can also rule out Thesp with All Alone.

Pistachion can't be scum with Dave and All Alone.

All Alone can't be scum with Pistachion and Thesp.

Possible Teams:

Dave/All Alone/Ank
Dave/Thesp/Ank
Pistachion/Ank/Thesp

If I'm correct in my assumptions, then Ank is a certainty, and then Dave and Thesp flips should solve the game, because if they're not both scum, then a Townflip from either gives us the scumteam.

VOTE: Ankamius

[Alchemist21]

There's always that chance, but I think it's pretty low.

[Alchemist21]

Then I'd have to re-evaluate everything, which I'd have to do in LyLo anyway.

I think it's somewhat telling that people are asking me "what happens if Ank flips Town?" and not "Why are you so sure about Nether and RC?" It feel like an attempt to scare me away from my Ank vote.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, I'm asking because your conclusion looks like you're trying to fit a theory to it rather than the other way around. The fact that you're just going to throw the theory away out of hand with a townflip isn't exactly helping your case.

Not true. Whe I first thought about scum probably weren't bussing, I figured there was a triangle between pistachion, Dave, and Alone, where a pistachion scumflip would have cleared the other 2 and given us a gamesolve, and a Townflip from anynof those 3 gave us 50/50 odds for a scum lynch the next phase. Then I looked and saw AA and Thesp cross-voted, so then when I took that into consideration and listed out the teams I think are possible, your name was in all 3 possibilities. Had I failed to notice Thesp/AA voting each other, then I would have voted Pistachion.

[Alchemist21]

My original thought was "scum are not bussing the day before lylo when there have been 0 scum lynches". Looking at the votes today, I concluded Pistachion could not be scum with either of the other 2. Either she was scum and the other 2 were Town, or she was Town and at least one of the other 2 were scum.

[Alchemist21]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm really off base this game and we're looking at a weird RC+Thesp team.

I wondered that myself for a little bit, but I don't think RC is scum for 2 main reasons:

1) Her reaction to Eventi's scumclaim in twilight looked even more genuine than Netherspite's.

2) He correctly ID'd Duppin as the cop to clear Dom. Yes, he probably shouldn't have outed the cop like that, but scum with a PR read is going to keep their mouth shut and just NK them, not speak up to stop a wagon on someone who, in all honesty, was total lynchbait. The only way scumRC makes sense in this scenario is if they were scum with Dominator, but Duppin knew we were going on the assumption there was a cop innocent on Dom that he could have easily denied without even claiming cop by saying "I do not have an innocent result on Dominator," so it's safe to assume both Dom and RC are Town.

[Alchemist21]

I wonder how long it'll be before the Dom replacement comes in.

@RC
@Netherspite

What do you two think of my idea in 1115?

[Alchemist21]

As for my voting patterns, I've been trying to get a better intuition about this game and be more solid in my reads. I think I played very poorly in my newbie game when I changed my vote 7 times on day 1 and I wouldn't like to repeat that.

Then how do you explain the numerous games All Alone cited in which you did just that?

I wonder how long it'll be before the Dom replacement comes in.

@RC
@Netherspite

What do you two think of my idea in 1115?

I think that the assumption that scum didn't vote each other is very weak because I don't see why wouldn't they.
Exactly because someone would think like you and rule them out easily.
However, I didn't like

Ankamius

's answer + I was finding both him and his predecessor scummy for quite a while so I'm voting him despite I find your assumption weak.

Do you agree or disagree about the 4 players I named being Town?

[Alchemist21]

Vote: Pistachi0n

ok

Why did you start with the pistachi0n/Davesaz/All Alone team?

Oh, I misread originally.

UNVOTE: Pistachi0n

I'll rethink.

Ank where did this vote come from and why did it go?

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist21

I think you're town. I agree about

TheDominator37

.
Not so sure about

RadiantCowbells

.

Anything in particular making you feel unsure about RC or is it just a gut feeling?

[Alchemist21]

So why the unvote? What were you misunderstanding?

[Alchemist21]

I still think Ank should go.

[Alchemist21]

Ank's entire case looks like an elaborate attempt to OMGUS me.

Dominator was acting scummy as fuck, and I had expressed a preference for a Dave lynch the prior Day, but I switched to Pers partially because of the Deadline.

If you're not voting Ank now, you need to.

[Alchemist21]

Ank's entire case looks like an elaborate attempt to OMGUS me.

Dominator was acting scummy as fuck, and I had expressed a preference for a Dave lynch the prior Day, but I switched to Pers partially because of the Deadline.

If you're not voting Ank now, you need to.

How is it even possible to view my actions today as OMGUS onto you?

Your case ignored the context of a lot of votes, you came up with a reason to vote me then say Nether is scum regardless of my flip, and I think this is because you're afraid I have this game practically solved if we lynch you.

[Alchemist21]

You threw in Pistachi0n as a partner to me as well, so what's your point?

[Alchemist21]

You were barely pushing that wagon to start with, and you supposedly based it on some association with me.

Frankly, I think of the 3 possible teams I mentioned, Ank/Pistachi0n/Thesp is the most likely one. If that's the case it does make sense for you to try and find a reason to push Town over a scumbuddy, and your earlier vote on Pistachi0n would likely be a knee-jerk distancing attempt.

[Alchemist21]

RC, what do you think of Ank?

[Alchemist21]

^Vote Ank.

[Alchemist21]

This is good. We need all the Ank votes we can get.

[Alchemist21]

I will be on L/A this weekend.

There's wifi where I'll be, but it's pretty shitty and unreliable so I don't know if I'll even be able to access the site.

[Alchemist21]

Can you guys PM me your roles please, I don't have them <_<

I'm aware Dom won't be able to send me his but I think I can figure his out by process of elimination.

Edit: And for the love of god don't lie.

Also, you might still be able to get this from Dom. He's only game banned, and I think he's still posting a bit in discussion threads, so you could PM him and see if he's still got the role PM.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, doesn't it give you some pause that Ank thinks Nether is scum regardless of my flip, yet he's voting me over him?

[Alchemist21]

Nether did not scumslip, and I think it's pretty clear that Ank is scum trying to get out of this situation. Ank's entire reasoning for suspecting me/Nether is that we've been in some of the same wagons, which doesn't mean anything when you actually look at the context of these wagons.

I really think RC is just Town on the wrong end of things here. She may be what some refer to as a Townbeard (Town who unwitiingly and constantly aid scum in a game).

I'm just as eager to see the Dom replacement because I'm hoping for more support for this ank lynch, and most of the posts are coming from the same few players.

[Alchemist21]

I'm wondering why anyone would consider claiming doc AND self-hammering an option.

[Alchemist21]

Because you're not at L-1. That should be obvious.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Davesaz

Ank's recent posts are making me doubt he's scum. My next best guess would be Dave based on how he joined the wagon.

[Alchemist21]

It's hard for me to tell if AA was avoiding the issue. The post he made was quoting posts that were made when Ank vs Nether was just starting. I think this could just as easily be a case of him not being caught up at the time.

[Alchemist21]

Hmm...

If Ank is Town and my earlier Townreads are correct, scum are within Thesp, Dave, Pistachion, and AA.

I can't see scum AA doing an incriminating meta dive on a partner like he did to Pistachion so I would rule those two out as partners, yet I find myself naturally trusting Thesp.

I suppose Thesp, Dave, Pistachion is a possibility, but the way things are going I'm starting to doubt my basic Townreads. If Thesp and one of Pistachion/AA are Town, then I'm wrong about either Nether or RC.

[Alchemist21]

I've played with Ank a few times before. I do believe if he had the idea in his head to claim Doc to draw the CC, he would have as scum. I don't think he would have chosen to play suboptimally for the sake of wifom that may not even pay off, plus his recent posts do look like genuine Town flail.

[Alchemist21]

If he believed the wagons were scum-driven, then looked and saw the same names on them, why wouldn't it be reasonable for him to think we're scum? It is fallacious to claim the wagoned parties are Town based on that line of thought, but the actual case against us isn't a fallacy, though it is (at least) half wrong.

[Alchemist21]

It's not always a case of individual people on it being scummy; it could be a case of a wagon that doesn't make sense gaining traction or a wagon forming on an easy target. A lot of times people believe a wagon is pushed by scum but aren't sure who on the wagon would be the scum.

[Alchemist21]

That depends on your POV though. Ank may see it differently.

[Alchemist21]

Both are possibilities (though the latter would surprise me). There's also a chance we're wrong on Thesp.

I think Dave is the best bet for now. If I get time and clear my head I'll look some things back over, but right now I'm still clouded in my thoughts.

[Alchemist21]

@RC, I was just saying that, at the time, I believed you were Town with an incorrect read. I wasn't trying to criticize your play, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

[Alchemist21]

@Thesp, did you see my response to your AA question in 1311?

[Alchemist21]

@RadiantCowbells

You didn't start to make any sense since my unvote on

Ankamius

so the point stays.
This is not neccessarily scummy, may be it's just dumb town.

@Ankamius

SCUM
davesaz
All Alone
RadiantCowbells
pistachi0n
Ankamius
Thesp
Alchemist21
St Constantine
TOWN

Why do you personallt think Dave is scum, and why aren't you voting him?

[Alchemist21]

Well we have to do something. We only have 1 day left. I still prefer Dave but could switch to pistachion if necessary.

@Netherspite, you didn't answer my question.

[Alchemist21]

Well we have to do something. We only have 1 day left. I still prefer Dave but could switch to pistachion if necessary.

@Netherspite, you didn't answer my question.

I did.
It was in my answer to

RadiantCowbells

.
I equally consider top 3 in my list scummy.
I still didn't decide who to vote of them.

You didn't say why you actually suspect Dave.

[Alchemist21]

Davesaz's vote on me is lazy, but what strikes me as weird about it is how little it looks like he cares. Either he's just town that doesn't give a shit or he's scum on a wagon that's mostly town. I don't see a scumteam not putting in a lot of effort to get me lynched if they're going to go all out in wagoning me.

I replied to this concern, from you and others, in 1337. Work has me constrained to something like 10% of normal capacity. I looked at the game state, decided who I thought looked scummier from scumslipgate, and voted it. The brief comment I made was quite literally all I had time for.

I don't really have a clue who is scum atm. My methods rely almost exclusively on having a scum flip to associate from. Occasionally someone's behavior or an outright slip will help. Sometimes I can tell by the pattern of attacks or votes on someone I think is clearly town. But to really dial in on it, I need that flip.

What makes you think Ank looked scummier?

[Alchemist21]

As bad as his recent play has been, I still get the feeling Nether is Town and his lynch will be Eventi Part 2.

[Alchemist21]

I think Ank amd Nether are both tied at 3 votes at the moment. I'd really prefer people to switch over to Dave. With 5 hours left it looks bleak, but there's still hope.

[Alchemist21]

Farewell!

[Alchemist21]

GG everyone!

I think we Townies played poorly, but I also think the scum played pretty well.

[Alchemist21]

Molla made one. I don't think he has access to a prior one, and I'm not even sure there was one before Molla made one.

[Alchemist21]

Does he have mod access over the scum PT?

[Alchemist21]

His last post is on August 14.

[Alchemist21]

There's not really an indication he meant to flake though, so I'm thinking something happened to him irl.

[Alchemist21]

Can we get Part 2 of the PTs please?