Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

All Alone · Post Post #15 (isolation #0) » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:03 pm

VOTE: Thesp

All Alone · Post Post #24 (isolation #1) » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:12 am

In post 17, Thesp wrote:Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) I don't really keep track.
2) In my one completed game on this site I had 58 posts over roughly 27 days.
3) Check your role pm, all the scum are listed in it.

All Alone · Post Post #87 (isolation #2) » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:01 pm

In post 56, Thesp wrote:
In post 55, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 51, Firebringer wrote:Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

Usually it is, but it's still worth investigating.

This is a very interesting remark from someone who claimed scum.

This comment from Thesp looks like scumhunting but really isn't. He's not analyzing Pistachi0n's alignment, he's not asking her anything meaningful. It's like information instead of analysis, except it's not even informative.

VOTE: Thesp

All Alone · Post Post #124 (isolation #3) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:28 pm

In post 102, Thesp wrote:
In post 87, All Alone wrote:This comment from Thesp looks like scumhunting but really isn't. He's not analyzing Pistachi0n's alignment, he's not asking her anything meaningful. It's like information instead of analysis, except it's not even informative.

This is fair - though I was really hoping to see pistachi0n's next post before I comment further on this.

Pistachi0n posted after this in 103, and your 109 didn't comment further on it. Why not?

All Alone · Post Post #126 (isolation #4) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:38 pm

In post 103, pistachi0n wrote:I'm town-reading Thesp for the questions he asked. It gave us a lot of information, not because of the answers themselves, but because of what people thought of the questions and how people responded to other people's answers to the questions. It started discussion, that's a good thing.

In the post right above this, Thesp said he starts every game with a question phase:

In post 102, Thesp wrote:Would it make a difference if you were to learn that I always open games by asking questions of everyone?

I don't understand why you're townreading him for something he always does regardless of alignment.

All Alone · Post Post #128 (isolation #5) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:48 pm

In post 110, Firebringer wrote:
In post 105, Alchemist21 wrote:
Then you should vote RC too.

I thought I did....

I think I unvoted him because he was tunneling me so hard I didn't think Scum would do that.

Anyways, he is using horrible logic and I think he could be scum trying to FoS me and label you as Scum for calling him out on his bad logic.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

In post 114, Firebringer wrote:so far Radiant all thats been proven is you are bad town at worse or bad scum. Your pressure on me was fine but your reasons faulty (you make up stuff in RVS and say it isn't RVS when everyone around here knows it is) then you push a lynch on Alchemist saying he is TOWN but bad.

Why do you say that RC is labeling Alchemist as scum in 110, but in 114 you say he's calling Alchemist town?

All Alone · Post Post #177 (isolation #6) » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:59 am

town

Cowbells
Firebringer
Alchemist
Netherspite

(everyone else)

Thesp
Dominator

scum

VOTE: TheDominator37

In 116, Dominator said it had no reads. At that time the votes were all spread out, with no wagon having more than two votes. Then in 146, with RC's wagon now the big leader with 4 votes, Dominator naked voted RC. There's no sign of progression from Dominator having no read to having a scum read on RC. I think Dominator is scum trying to hide on a popular wagon.

All Alone · Post Post #241 (isolation #7) » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:36 am

In post 237, Firebringer wrote:So far I think Nether and Raidant are most likely scum or at least one. If only one then I have no clue on the other. Perhaps dupin.

Firebringer seems to be trying to find a scum pair. If he were scum, he would definitely be aware that there are in fact three scum in this setup:

In post 0, ActionDan wrote:
3 of you will receive

Welcome,
ActionDan
, you are a
Mafia Goon
.

Abilities

During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.

Factional Kill
- The Mafia may kill one player per Night. This may be done in addition to other actions.

Factional Communication
- If there are other Mafia-aligned players, there will be a Mafia QT that can be used pre-game and during the Night.

Win Condition

You win when all town players are eliminated and at least one Mafia-aligned player is still alive (or nothing can prevent the same).

I think this is a legitimate town-slip from Firebringer.

All Alone · Post Post #250 (isolation #8) » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:39 am

In post 116, TheDominator37 wrote:This is the first game ever that I have had no reads this far

In post 146, TheDominator37 wrote:I'm going with who I think is most scummy atm
VOTE: rad

In post 210, TheDominator37 wrote:Nether and eventi are looking like scum buddies VOTE: nether

In post 233, TheDominator37 wrote:
In post 221, Alchemist21 wrote:@Dominator, care to explain your scumreads?

I may have been scumreading RC partly for playstyle. There are still parts of her early play that don't add up, and I still have a mild scumread on the slot, but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

In post 244, TheDominator37 wrote:Lynch me if you want I'm town
And when I flip kill nether

Here's why Dominator is scum.

At the time of 116, there were no wagons. Dominator says it has no reads.

At 146, there was a wagon on Cowbells. Dominator says its biggest scumread is Cowbells.

Note that Dominator has not mentioned Cowbells at all since this post.

Townies don't just vote their top suspect and then never mention them again.

At 210, there were competing wagons on Nether and eventi. Dominator says it thinks Nether and eventi are scum together. Nether and eventi were attacking each other hard at this point. Of course two players fighting each other doesn't rule out the possibility of them being scum partners, but it's not a very intuitive assumption - it's unlikely that a townie will suspect two fighting players of being distancing scum without a compelling reason to suspect them both. Dominator's compelling reason is "bandwagon".

Finally, at 244, Dominator offers its own lynch today for Nether's lynch tomorrow. Townies who use this sort of rhetoric only do so when they're confident the player is scum, not when they're just bandwagoning. But what really makes me believe this isn't genuine is that Dominator only had two votes at this time, while Nether had three. If your town and your top suspect has more votes than you, you're not gonna tell people to lynch you instead, that'd be ridiculous. I think Dominator only said this to try to get town cred.

All Alone · Post Post #317 (isolation #9) » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 pm

In post 256, TheDominator37 wrote:
In post 253, Netherspite wrote:
@All Alone

TheDominator
is obvious scum since beginning of the game.
I'm just trying to find more obscure scum because we can always lynch
TheDominator37
. I doubt town will need any more to be convinced lynching him.

Yup I'm 10000000000% percent scum lynch me now
VOTE: dom

In post 284, TheDominator37 wrote:Could we like not kill me
I'm town
Instead we could kill cowbell or nether

I really don't see how both these posts could be genuine reactions.

All Alone · Post Post #318 (isolation #10) » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:37 pm

And now that Newbie 1617 is over I can go into more detail about why I'm sure Dominator is scum here. In that game Dominator was town, and

repeatedly insisted that bandwagon votes with no reason were anti-town

:

Spoiler: Quotes from Newbie 1617

Now compare that to Dominator's voting patterns and "explanations" in this game. There's no way it can be town here.

All Alone · Post Post #319 (isolation #11) » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:53 pm

In post 303, RadiantCowbells wrote:Yeah, but 13 people 3 scum games are the norm, so where does he get off with that being a town slip?

I think if anything it's more likely that Firebringer's scum and that post may have been planned as such to grab for towncred.

With all the weird play that suggests inexperience from the slot though, I'm going to leave it for now.

Firebringer has never finished a 13p game on MS, and all of the open-setup games he's been in besides this one have scum pairs. It makes sense for him to assume there's two scum in this game.

All Alone · Post Post #372 (isolation #12) » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:17 am

In post 368, TheDominator37 wrote:Ok that was a fun gambit. Found who scum is
Definitely alcamist
And 2 out of the following: thesp, fire, eventi
Nether is obv town

What was your gambit?

All Alone · Post Post #433 (isolation #13) » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:35 am

I actually think Dominator's gambit is genuine. The gambit does a really good job explaining why Dominator was doing things it normally finds scummy, and why it didn't have the sense of belief it normally does - my two biggest points against it. Additionally Dominator has never been scum before, and I find it unlikely that a first-time scum's strategy would be to act intentionally scummy to fake a slayer gambit. Therefore, Dominator is probably town.

UNVOTE: Dominator

I'm still leaning town on Netherspite and null on eventi. I'll hammer eventi to prevent a no-lynch, but definitely not before Ankamius has a chance to catch up. Until then, I'm putting my vote on PMysterious. He tried to stall the wagons on eventi and Dominator on the basis that he wanted to talk more,

and then proceeded to lurk like hell.

I don't buy it.

VOTE: PMysterious

All Alone · Post Post #550 (isolation #14) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:22 am

In post 434, Firebringer wrote:I know PMysterious is lurking and one of my top suspects but you don't think none of the following are scum:
Thesp, NetherSpite, and Radiant?

I think those are better Day 1 lynches than PMysterious whose flip essentially would tell us the least All Alone.

I can see Thesp as scum. The way he backed off of pistachi0n when I suspected him seemed like he was more concerned with staying out of trouble than he was with sorting her.

I think Nether is town because there've been several moments in this game where he posted what I was thinking before I did: Calling RC and Alchemist a TvT, calling you town after your fight with RC, and calling Dominator scum but later changing his mind.

I think RC is town because I really can't see a scum motive for that OMGUS vote on Alchemist. It drew a lot of negative attention to him, and had no realistic chance to get a lynch on Alchemist. It makes very little sense as a manipulative act, and a lot of sense as a genuine reaction.

And I'm not really concerned with which flip is the most informative. Every lynch is informative except no-lynch.

I'd still vote eventi over Nether or Dominator.

All Alone · Post Post #632 (isolation #15) » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:03 pm

In post 550, All Alone wrote:I can see Thesp as scum. The way he backed off of pistachi0n when I suspected him seemed like he was more concerned with staying out of trouble than he was with sorting her.

VOTE: Thesp

All Alone · Post Post #767 (isolation #16) » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:05 pm

town

Cowbells
Netherspite
Dominator
duppin
Alchemist

Ankamius
pistachi0n
Persivul

davesaz
Thesp

scum

All Alone · Post Post #827 (isolation #17) » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:37 pm

In post 769, RadiantCowbells wrote:Why exactly do you scumread Daves and Thesp and what's your read on Percivul?

Thesp

has avoided the Persivul wagon today. Unlikely behavior coming from someone who explicitly called a scumteam with the PMysterious slot on it yesterday. It would make sense if he changed his mind on the slot's alignment since Persivul replaced in, but he hasn't:

In post 776, Thesp wrote:I don't hate the Persivul wagon and wouldn't fight it

It'd also make sense if he had a better vote, but he doesn't. His push on Alchemist in 824 is mostly semantics, and I have no idea how it's supposed to be indicative of scum-Alchemist at all. Just like with the pistachi0n comment it comes off like he's trying to push someone for making a "mistake", rather than trying to find their alignment.

Because of all these things, I don't think Thesp's push on PMysterious was genuine.

I find

davesaz

scummy because he seems to be avoiding stepping on anyone's toes as much as possible. The only time I've seen him give a scumread at all was in 405 when he put eventi at L-2. I haven't seen any scumreads from him at all today, which indicates that he's more concerned with survival than lynching scum.

Persivul is null to me. I'm no longer taking PMysterious's lurking as game-relevant since he had to be replaced.

All Alone · Post Post #833 (isolation #18) » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:57 am

In post 828, RadiantCowbells wrote:So basically your case is that Thesp is ignoring the wagon on Persivul which would make Persivul scum.

That would make a Persivul lynch nearly as useful, no? how is Persivul null when your case on Thesp is basically predicated on him being scum

Or Thesp could be ignoring the Persivul wagon to avoid drawing his attention. Or to avoid drawing attention to himself if Persivul flips town. I'm not assuming that Thesp's motive for staying off Persivul is to save his scumbuddy.

All Alone · Post Post #861 (isolation #19) » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:31 am

prod dodge

All Alone · Post Post #930 (isolation #20) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:56 am

In post 862, Thesp wrote:I'd love for everyone voting me to give their opinions on Alchemist21 (and I note that Persivul has weakly, as has TheDominator37 to some extent).

Alchemist reads town to me, mainly because of this sequence from his fight with Cowbells:

In post 72, Alchemist21 wrote:These are non-Thesp posts from when Cowbells voted Firebringer to the post on Page 2 where Cowbell brings up suspicion on Thesp. There are numerous examples of people RVS'ing and responding to the RQS questions without addressing Cowbell's vote on Firebringer. I don't get why Cowbells is singling out Thesp here, because aside from actually starting the RQS he did nothing unusual.

In post 74, Alchemist21 wrote:The first two posts I quoted were made before Thesp's. What's their excuse?

And you should know that if people wanted to address your vote they would do it even if there was another topic being discussed. There's nothing that prevents multiple topics from being discussed at once. You're trying ridiculously hard to try linking Thesp with Firebringer when your reasoning for doing so makes no sense.

In post 78, Alchemist21 wrote:What? It's bad because he voted Thesp after you voted Firebringer? That's crappy reasoning.
Also, someone actually looked into games a while back and found scum don't often RVS each other. The site meta may have shifted a bit because of that thread, but it's certainly not common enough to automatically assume that if someone flips scum their RVS vote is their partner.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Firebringer may still be scum, but Cowbells is trying unnaturally hard to paint Thesp as scummy no matter what, and her logic is reachy as hell.

In post 81, Alchemist21 wrote:
In post 80, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like, Thesp's deliberate attempt to undo progress made in the game is far scummier than Firebringer's wishy washiness or defensiveness.

Alchemist is being so nonsense right now that I'd be happy speedlynching this even if it flipped town.

I think everyone will be able to see for themselves you're the nonsensical one here.

In post 137, Alchemist21 wrote:I'd also like to remind everyone that RC is currently voting someone she thinks is Town over Thesp, who she said is scummy regardless of Firebringer's flip.

In post 176, Alchemist21 wrote:
In post 172, Netherspite wrote:
In post 150, Quaroath wrote:As pointed out, Alch voted first. So it obv isn't omgus. VOTE: netherspite

Oh well he voted first, but they had extended argument before that happened so I still would consider his vote more emotion-based than logic-based.

===

Anyway, latest argument between
RadiantCowbells
and
Firebringer
makes me no longer liking my vote on
Firebringer
. It feels TvT.

I'll move my vote to
eventi
as he looks like an opportunistic scum.

VOTE: eventi

Actually read my posts in that argument then still tell me it wasn't logic-based.

Alchemist's argument for RC being scum is believable from the PoV of someone who's unaware of RC's playstyle, and I think the confidence he has in these posts is most likely genuine. Therefore, Alchemist is probably town.

All Alone · Post Post #970 (isolation #21) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:36 pm

In post 931, TheDominator37 wrote:so all alone the basis of your argument is that alc is to ignorant to be scum?

In post 945, RadiantCowbells wrote:
who's unaware of RC's playstyle,

Which is basically saying that scummy and/or reachy things I can do can be handwaved by "RC playstyle!"?

No and no. I'm saying that Alchemist's thought process,

in this specific scenario

, felt natural. Alchemist scumread RC for voting him instead of Thesp or Firebringer, then realized that that wasn't actually a scumtell for RC and backed off.

All Alone · Post Post #971 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:44 pm

In post 940, Thesp wrote:

In post 776, Thesp wrote:
All Alone
, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

All Alone
, I missed your answer to this question, do you mind responding?

I pushed Dominator hard for most of D1, and you today, and in both cases the wagon grew as I pushed them. What exactly do I need to be trying harder at?

All Alone · Post Post #1014 (isolation #23) » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:38 pm

I'll vote Persivul slot if needed to lynch but I'd much rather lynch Thesp.

All Alone · Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:49 pm

VOTE: Thesp

All Alone · Post Post #1099 (isolation #25) » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:02 pm

In post 1087, Thesp wrote:
In post 1085, Netherspite wrote:
@Thesp

What is your case on
All Alone
? I don't see why people scumread him.

A lurksack (especially near the end of yesterday's flurry, when both vote leaders were town) who hasn't given off a town vibe and whose response here was scummy as all get out. Is there anything he's done that makes you think he's town? What's your stance on him?

Yesterday's flurry started with NotMafia replacing Persivul in 1038, and ended with RC's hammer in 1069. I pretty clearly wasn't online during that window, and I don't believe that you genuinely think I was.

All Alone · Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:28 am

In post 1103, Thesp wrote:Yesterday's flurry started a day before that, and your entire contribution for that entire last
week
was incredibly paltry, served the purpose of maintaining the doldrums of a status quo while the two primary wagons were on townies, and then you got defensive about it saying you were actually being productive. You continue to avoid meaningful discussion of any player other than myself while there's plenty going on. This is textbook scum play. I'm having a hard time imagining a reality where you're town.

Thesp can't even keep his own rhetoric straight:

In post 1103, Thesp wrote:the doldrums of a status quo

In post 1103, Thesp wrote:there's plenty going on

How the heck can someone genuinely believe there was plenty going on yesterday, but also there was a doldrums?

Those are literally exact opposites.

That's not an authentic belief, it's the mindset of someone who's playing mental gymnastics to make a player they know is town look as bad as possible.

Thesp has also been playing this whole game for his own survival.

Day 1, eventi voted Thesp, and Thesp pushed the eventi wagon to a lynch. Day 2, Persivul voted Thesp, and Thesp pushed the Persivul wagon to a lynch. And now D3 he's hard pushing me, and soft pushing davesaz - the other two unconfirmed players on his wagon yesterday. It's

incredibly

unlikely for a townie to push lynches on every single player who attacks him the way Thesp has.

pistachi0n is probably scum as well. The way she called Thesp town for RQSing, and then insisted he was town even after I pointed out it wasn't a towntell, seemed more like she was trying to get towncred for Thesp than a legitimate read.

In post 669, Persivul wrote:Pistachio town game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62219

Pistachio made RVS vote then changed it 4 times D1.

Pistachio scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62222

Pistachio made RVS vote, never changed it.

This game: made RVS vote, changed it once to eventi.

So, her D1 voting pattern was much closer to her scum game than her town game.

This is a good point as well. I looked at a bunch of her town games and

she's pretty consistently vote-hoppy on D1 when she's town

, and I don't see a convincing reason for her to have played differently in this game.

I'm fine with either of those lynches.

All Alone · Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:30 am

VOTE: pistachi0n

All Alone · Post Post #1114 (isolation #28) » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:33 am

In post 1113, Netherspite wrote:While all of this looks pretty convincing I don't get why you choose
pistachi0n
over
Thesp
if you seem to be having more arguments against
Thesp
? Or did I get it wrong?

The meta evidence against pistachi0n is actually pretty big.

Newbie 1592, she was town, and voted three times on day 1 (240 posts)
Newbie 1603, she was town, and voted seven times on day 1 (411 posts)
Micro 489, she was town, and voted five times on day 1 (366 posts)
Open 600, she was town, and voted four times on day 1 (313 posts)
Open 601, she was town, and voted five times on day 1 (635 posts)
Micro 487, she was town, and voted two times on day 1 (220 posts)
Open 602, she was town, and voted four times on day 1 (503 posts)

Micro 485, she was scum, and voted one time on day 1 (447 posts)

(I'm not counting Open 599 in the statistics, since that game's D1 was 29 posts)

Basically, pistachi0n tends to vote-hop roughly once every hundred posts D1 as town, while as scum, she's much more shy about vote-hopping. And in this game, D1 was 625 posts, and she voted

twice

. That's a pretty significant departure from her town meta.

All Alone · Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:11 am

In post 1122, RadiantCowbells wrote:AA, what led to you counting up Pistachion's D1 votes?

Persivul's 669.

All Alone · Post Post #1144 (isolation #30) » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:20 am

In post 1142, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 1111, All Alone wrote:pistachi0n is probably scum as well. The way she called Thesp town for RQSing, and then insisted he was town even after I pointed out it wasn't a towntell, seemed more like she was trying to get towncred for Thesp than a legitimate read.

So you're scumreading me because of associations?

No, even if Thesp died and flipped town, I would still think that was scummy. I think defending your buddy is the most likely explanation for your defense of Thesp, but you buddying him is more likely than you legitimately townreading him.

Also, my vote is more based on your D1 voting pattern than on your Thesp defense.

All Alone · Post Post #1199 (isolation #31) » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:07 am

In post 1146, pistachi0n wrote:As for my voting patterns, I've been trying to get a better intuition about this game and be more solid in my reads. I think I played very poorly in my newbie game when I changed my vote 7 times on day 1 and I wouldn't like to repeat that.

You didn't cast a nonrandom vote until page 14, how is that "more solid" in your reads?

All Alone · Post Post #1235 (isolation #32) » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:04 pm

In post 1203, pistachi0n wrote:I wanted to wait until I was sure about someone before I placed a vote.

In post 1207, pistachi0n wrote:I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

How are these quotes consistent?

All Alone · Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:59 pm

I'm pretty sure Ankamius is town. I find it unlikely that he'd act as righteously frustrated as he has if he was scum and genuinely slipped.

In post 1260, Ankamius wrote:
In post 1258, Netherspite wrote:
In post 1256, RadiantCowbells wrote:
Netherspite just scumslipped by revealing that he knows that Ankamius is as much confirmed town as Dominator by creating a dichotomy wherein Dom/Ankamius were somehow separate from Davesaz.

Also you are putting words in my mouth.
I never opposed Ank and Dom to Dave. I was continuing Ank's thought and he spoke about Dom and Dave. He put them both in 'mislynchee' list whereas Dave was never conftown and thus Ank couldn't know that his wagon is a mislynch wagon unless he's scum and knows that Dave is town.

Here's an idea: look at my ISO.

I outwardly condemned the Dominator wagon day 2 because it looked scum driven.

I outwardly condemned the davesaz wagon day 3 because it looked scum driven.

I outwardly condemned my own wagon on day 3 because it looked scum driven.

Then I actually looked at the wagons and saw that both you and Alchemist were the first two votes on ALL THREE WAGONS.

davesaz being conftown or not has fuck all to do with any of it.
The wagons look like scum, therefore they're town.
Not the other way around like you're trying to spin it.

In post 1268, Netherspite wrote:2. Ankamius's scumslip becomes even worse when you look at how he responds to me pointing it out.
The most obvious answer I'd expect from the town in his position is "I strongly townread davesaz and that's why I included him in the list".

What do we see instead?

Netherspite's 1268 was a huge post, where he stayed calm and tried to logically analyze his entire fight with Ankamius. I doubt that someone as logical as Netherspite would miss the bolded in Ank's 1260. I think he left it out to push an Ank mislynch through.

VOTE: Netherspite

All Alone · Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:35 am

I have no idea what that paragraph has to do with the davesaz wagon.

All Alone · Post Post #1302 (isolation #35) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:12 pm

In post 1283, Netherspite wrote:He says that his wagon looks scum driven and thus it's on town.
He's trying to turn it upside down in that passage because initially he said that it was 3 wagons on townies (him included) that me and
Alchemist21
joined. Now he's attempting to cover his scumslip by saying the reverse: that the wagons were scum-driven and that's why
davesaz
is town.
We have a classic A=>B=>A logical fallacy here: "the God exists because that's what Bible says, and the Bible says the truth because it's the word of God".

Where is the A=>B=>A? Ankamius said "The wagons look like scum, therefore they're town. Not the other way around like you're trying to spin it." in that post, and I see nothing in his ISO that contradicts that.

All Alone · Post Post #1303 (isolation #36) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:28 pm

In post 1284, Thesp wrote:LOL at All Alone finally taking a position on Ankamius v. Netherspite only after enough people have said they're willing to lynch Ankamius. It's just so bad.

I took a position on Ankamius vs Netherspite on

my very first post sitewide

after it started. Are you seriously gonna tell me it didn't occur to you that I wasn't online this weekend? You've been here since 2004, and you've never noticed anyone not post for a weekend? Get outta here with that garbage.

All Alone · Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:20 am

Where, SPECIFICALLY, did Ankamius attack you and Alchemist for pushing wagons because the wagons were on town?

All Alone · Post Post #1329 (isolation #38) » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:42 am

Page 24 has me thinking Nether's misunderstanding of Ankamius was genuine. I'm not certain that makes him town but I'd rather lynch pistachi0n or Thesp.

VOTE: pistachi0n

All Alone · Post Post #1330 (isolation #39) » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:51 am

For St Constantine as well as a reminder for everyone else, here's my cases:

In post 1111, All Alone wrote:
In post 1103, Thesp wrote:Yesterday's flurry started a day before that, and your entire contribution for that entire last
week
was incredibly paltry, served the purpose of maintaining the doldrums of a status quo while the two primary wagons were on townies, and then you got defensive about it saying you were actually being productive. You continue to avoid meaningful discussion of any player other than myself while there's plenty going on. This is textbook scum play. I'm having a hard time imagining a reality where you're town.

Thesp can't even keep his own rhetoric straight:

In post 1103, Thesp wrote:the doldrums of a status quo

In post 1103, Thesp wrote:there's plenty going on

How the heck can someone genuinely believe there was plenty going on yesterday, but also there was a doldrums?
Those are literally exact opposites.
That's not an authentic belief, it's the mindset of someone who's playing mental gymnastics to make a player they know is town look as bad as possible.

Thesp has also been playing this whole game for his own survival.
Day 1, eventi voted Thesp, and Thesp pushed the eventi wagon to a lynch. Day 2, Persivul voted Thesp, and Thesp pushed the Persivul wagon to a lynch. And now D3 he's hard pushing me, and soft pushing davesaz - the other two unconfirmed players on his wagon yesterday. It's
incredibly
unlikely for a townie to push lynches on every single player who attacks him the way Thesp has.

pistachi0n is probably scum as well. The way she called Thesp town for RQSing, and then insisted he was town even after I pointed out it wasn't a towntell, seemed more like she was trying to get towncred for Thesp than a legitimate read.

In post 669, Persivul wrote:Pistachio town game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62219

Pistachio made RVS vote then changed it 4 times D1.

Pistachio scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62222

Pistachio made RVS vote, never changed it.

This game: made RVS vote, changed it once to eventi.

So, her D1 voting pattern was much closer to her scum game than her town game.

This is a good point as well. I looked at a bunch of her town games and
she's pretty consistently vote-hoppy on D1 when she's town
, and I don't see a convincing reason for her to have played differently in this game.

I'm fine with either of those lynches.

In post 1114, All Alone wrote:
In post 1113, Netherspite wrote:While all of this looks pretty convincing I don't get why you choose
pistachi0n
over
Thesp
if you seem to be having more arguments against
Thesp
? Or did I get it wrong?

The meta evidence against pistachi0n is actually pretty big.

Newbie 1592, she was town, and voted three times on day 1 (240 posts)
Newbie 1603, she was town, and voted seven times on day 1 (411 posts)
Micro 489, she was town, and voted five times on day 1 (366 posts)
Open 600, she was town, and voted four times on day 1 (313 posts)
Open 601, she was town, and voted five times on day 1 (635 posts)
Micro 487, she was town, and voted two times on day 1 (220 posts)
Open 602, she was town, and voted four times on day 1 (503 posts)

Micro 485, she was scum, and voted one time on day 1 (447 posts)

(I'm not counting Open 599 in the statistics, since that game's D1 was 29 posts)

Basically, pistachi0n tends to vote-hop roughly once every hundred posts D1 as town, while as scum, she's much more shy about vote-hopping. And in this game, D1 was 625 posts, and she voted
twice
. That's a pretty significant departure from her town meta.

In post 1146, pistachi0n wrote:As for my voting patterns, I've been trying to get a better intuition about this game and be more solid in my reads. I think I played very poorly in my newbie game when I changed my vote 7 times on day 1 and I wouldn't like to repeat that.

In post 1149, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 1148, Alchemist21 wrote:Then how do you explain the numerous games All Alone cited in which you did just that?

The changes have been getting lower over time.

Also, in my scum game, there was one calendar day in particular with a huge flurry of activity. I couldn't be on that day because real life reasons. And then when I logged on the lynch had already happened.

In post 1199, All Alone wrote:
In post 1146, pistachi0n wrote:As for my voting patterns, I've been trying to get a better intuition about this game and be more solid in my reads. I think I played very poorly in my newbie game when I changed my vote 7 times on day 1 and I wouldn't like to repeat that.

You didn't cast a nonrandom vote until page 14, how is that "more solid" in your reads?

In post 1203, pistachi0n wrote:I wanted to wait until I was sure about someone before I placed a vote. I was obviously wrong in my assessment of Eventi.

In post 1235, All Alone wrote:
In post 1203, pistachi0n wrote:I wanted to wait until I was sure about someone before I placed a vote.

In post 1207, pistachi0n wrote:I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

How are these quotes consistent?

All Alone · Post Post #1334 (isolation #40) » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:45 am

In post 1309, Thesp wrote:
In post 1303, All Alone wrote:
In post 1284, Thesp wrote:LOL at All Alone finally taking a position on Ankamius v. Netherspite only after enough people have said they're willing to lynch Ankamius. It's just so bad.

I took a position on Ankamius vs Netherspite on
my very first post sitewide
after it started. Are you seriously gonna tell me it didn't occur to you that I wasn't online this weekend? You've been here since 2004, and you've never noticed anyone not post for a weekend? Get outta here with that garbage.

On this point, you're full of crap.
Your post on
Friday
:

In post 1235, All Alone wrote:
In post 1203, pistachi0n wrote:I wanted to wait until I was sure about someone before I placed a vote.

In post 1207, pistachi0n wrote:I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

How are these quotes consistent?

This totally ignores the Ankamius and Netherspite back and forth. In the 24 posts
immediately
preceding your Friday post, Ankamius and Netherspite have 13 of them, and nearly all of them are attacking each other. The posts that
aren't
from Ankamius and Netherspite are all from the mod, or are nearly all making comments about Ankamius v. Netherspite (and heck, I'd just commented 3 posts before yours how I was willing to be the 4th on Ankamius's wagon). I don't think you're so oblivious as to miss this, so my conclusion is that you deliberately sidestepped the hullabaloo going on around it so as to not have to take a position on them.

Look, I totally understand not posting on the weekends. I rarely do. But I won't pretend that nothing was happening when you
were
posting, and especially at the time when Ankamius v. Netherspite was heating up.

Everyone else
, please read the thread from #1211 on to All Alone's post on Friday, and see if it looks to you like there's some issue he's dodging. You can do so with this handy dandy link right here.

I didn't see anything relevant about Nether's participation in that argument until 1268 where I thought Nether was purposely misrepresenting Ank, nor did I have any read at all on Ankamius until he maintained a self-righteous attitude when he was accused of "scumslipping", which I thought was a town tell. Both of those stemmed specifically from the dual scumslip accusation fight, which started after 1235 so I couldn't have mentioned them then.

And

Thesp is misrepresenting his own play here:

"The posts that

aren't

from Ankamius and Netherspite are all from the mod, or are nearly all making comments about Ankamius v. Netherspite (and heck, I'd just commented 3 posts before yours how I was willing to be the 4th on Ankamius's wagon)."

He brings up his own post 1232 as an example of a comment on Ankamius vs Netherspite.

Only that post doesn't mention Netherspite at all.

He just says he'll vote for Ank with no context, and is now trying to pass it off as being a comment on Netherspite. I doubt a townie would stretch the truth like that.

All Alone · Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:39 am

Can we flash wagon pistachi0n?

In post 1207, pistachi0n wrote:I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

That was eight days ago, and since then she's left her vote on Ankamius while doing absolutely nothing useful with that vote. A townie who was wagoning someone for pressure would definitely be following up on it. She hasn't. The Ankamius wagon is dying, and she doesn't seem to notice or care. I really don't see any town motivation for that.

All Alone · Post Post #1384 (isolation #42) » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:21 pm

ugh, nobody will vote pistachi0n?

I still think Ankamius's reaction to L-1 was genuine. I won't compromise onto him.

VOTE: Netherspite

All Alone · Post Post #1393 (isolation #43) » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:56 am

In post 1354, BBmolla wrote:
Deadline
: (expired on 2015-08-29 14:20:00)

SOMEONE HAMMER.

NOW.

All Alone · Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:55 pm

I intend to vote pistachi0n and will wait until town's ready to end the discussion before I vote.

Reasons why pistachi0n is scum are in 1330.

All Alone · Post Post #1470 (isolation #45) » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:39 am

prod dodge

All Alone · Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:38 pm

VOTE: pistachi0n

In post 1429, pistachi0n wrote:Scum:
davesaz
RC
Ankamius
All Alone
Thesp
Fluminator
me

Davesaz didn't do much until pressured, and then once the wagon dropped off he stopped doing stuff again. Some weird resistance to his wagon. I think he's scum. Still not going to drop a vote yet because it's LYLO and we have time.

In post 1476, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 1467, RadiantCowbells wrote:I would like everybody to have a chance to speak before we lynch today, aka let me just stall and see what terrible wagon the town's going to jump on next.

Do you REALLY think LYLO is any time to be quicklynching? I'm not voting for you because you're way too stupid to be scum.

Pistachi0n declares RadiantCowbells her second scummiest read, and RC votes her in LyLo with no scum piling on. The lack of scum pile-on isn't necessarily proof that it's not TvT, as a three-scum quickwagon can be hard to coordinate and scum might not be willing to risk it, but it should at the very least be ringing some alarm bells - especially if she was already suspicious of him. Instead she does a 180, and confidently declares RC too stupid to be scum.

For someone this confident that she's being voted by a townie in LYLO, she's awfully nonchalant. If she's town and RC is town, then scum can win the game at any point, and that should be pants-shittingly terrifying. There should be some sort of panic, some sort of fight, some sort of whatever-the-heck-it-takes-to-not-lose-the-game out of her. But if she's scum, she can rest a lot easier. She doesn't have to worry about town quick lynching, and even if she does get lynched her buddies will still be in a good position tomorrow. This is a scum reaction.

All Alone · Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:35 pm

VOTE: Ankamius

All Alone · Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:01 am

Good game everyone.

Thanks ActionDan for modding and BBMolla for taking over.