Mini 1782 Game Over
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a plain farmer Goon
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In post 19, Lowell wrote:In post 15, mhsmith0 wrote:In post 13, RadiantCowbells wrote:can we policy lynch kaintepes?
Well, clearly we CAN, the question is whether we SHOULD. Or whether it'd just be fun to do for the lulz I guess
Thanks, coach.pre-vote smith
Come, sheeple.
Good idea.pre-vote mhsmith0
Let's get him all the way up to L+5.-
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No, RC, Jake is obvtown.
In post 21, mhsmith0 wrote:Guess it's to... roll the dice
Yet another reason why this needs pre-rope.
That doesn't count!
~IrcherLast edited by Ircher on Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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In post 30, Roshar wrote:But you're hard-defending.
Are you referring to 16? All I was saying there is that you can try to PL Kain, but he might deflect it like a blaster bolt off a lightsabre.
@Plain farmer, how old are you if you don't mind me asking. Trying to put things in perspective.
Twice as old as Kain, apparently. Does this help?-
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a plain farmer Goon
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@mhsmith: Thanks for the input.
pre-unvote:
Anyone else?-
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In post 92, Froot Loop wrote:The confusion between FA and RC is weird. I didn't know what RC was talking about because scum know each other. It's a strange interaction anyway.
Do you think it's weird in any alignment-indicative way?-
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In post 112, RadiantCowbells wrote:I'm saying that being way too certain about reads is a scumtell and if they're not scum they're not people you want to have around.
In this instance I think that APF is scum.
And you're uncertain? Did you read the mhsmith case as articulated by Lowell and I?-
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In post 136, RadiantCowbells wrote:I find it weird how Roshar basically regurgitated my points and is calling me scum.
In post 137, Roshar wrote:Which points did I regurgitate?
And wow there, there's still the option that you were noobish. Why jump to scum so quickly?
Hold on a sec. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume these posts refer to this, since it was the only thing Roshar said about RC:
In post 135, Roshar wrote:Did you read it is as genuine or fake excitement when RC thought frozen slipped?
in which case:
RC: Why'd you interpret this as Roshar scumreading you?
Roshar: Why'd you not point out the disconnect in RC thinking you scumread him for that, and instead seem to imply that RC's behavior around FA's "slip" could only come from noob or scum?-
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Re: RC's "townslip" in 62:
When I first read it, I thought RC was saying that FA had slipped by wondering if RC was one of her buddies. This would've been a fake town-slip because the underlying assumption would have been that the scum PT had probably already been created. But no, on further reflection I see what RC was saying and don't think it's a town-slip, fake or not.
In post 128, mhsmith0 wrote:In post 79, mhsmith0 wrote:@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.
Apf, nos, clumsy: is there a reason why you thought this post was serious?
I was just interested in the "absolutely" and deferred judgment on the rest.-
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I was (erroneously) thinking that by "As in she's suspicious that I'm her buddy", RC was accusing you of actually slipping that you were wondering if he was your scumbuddy due to the scum PT not having been opened yet (when, I would have thought, the PT would have been open).
It was late when I was reading that, and it's even later now. I gotta get some sleep.-
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I hoped to not have to go back to this, but
VOTE: mhsmith
On Roshar: The scumreads on him seem to be based on him having exhibited X, Y, and Z behaviors that are disproportionately seen in scum. This is certainly not negligible, but his instantiations of these behaviors so far seem like they could come from town. On the whole, I view him as a null.
Also, here's a thing. Come see how good or bad of a person you are:
{Maverick, FA}
{RC, Froot Loop, Lowell}
{Roshar} {Jake, KainTepes, Nos, shaddowez}
{Clumsy}
{mhsmith}-
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Sry for referring to you as a "him" a few times, Rosh
In post 252, shaddowez wrote:APF's explanation of RC's "fake-townslip" in 142 and 144 are non-sensical (at least to me). It feels like he was trying to get traction early on, and when that failed backpedaled to justify himself.
Even thought I no longer agree with it, it does make sense. If there's any interest, I could go over it point-by-point.
The following post was the one that pinged me the most over the last 7-8 pages:
In post 262, shaddowez wrote:Your pre-vote against Roshar seems to have some substance, but that was a Page 2 vote.
Lowell's vote in 126 makes absolutely no sense to me, as I'm not sure where Roshar is not "holding it together". Does this make Lowell scummy to me? No, because he may have reasons that I just don't understand.
RC wants to pressure him in 189. That's not reason in and of itself, I want to know why RC wants to pressure him. I also don't see where Roshar calls RC scum like he accuses.
Any reason you didn't question Maverick on 163 when he does the same thing I did here, and never got any responses?
It seems lazy to me (but not "super chainsawy" as RC had asked). Lowell's vote was an admitted gutread, RC had given reasons for scumreading Roshar in 176, and, as FA pointed out, this doesn't address Maverick's 150.
I can think of both town-motivated (well, not town-motivated, but rather town-compatible) and scum-motivated reasons for it having been thrown together like this. Town-wise, shad was being pushed on this position and sometimes people will try and put up a face-saving defense even if the position is weak. Scum-wise, it could still be seen as something like that, but also as a bit of cover for something he might've been worried would suggest an informed perspective.
Mhsmith's posts since the day has began have been OK. I'm not a huge fan of his vote on Jake or even his withdrawal of it, but my first instinct is to say that his line of thinking has been coming from a town perspective. Are his prior transgressions still enough to warrant my first real vote? mmmmmm......no. No they're not.
VOTE: shaddowez
I'm also sympathetic to the Clumsy wagon.-
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@Maverick:
I know this is old news by now, but bear with me. You gave RC a little bit of a towniness bump for the honesty in this post:
In post 313, RadiantCowbells wrote:Yeah, but there's never really a good reason to townread me.
I mean even the kind of emotionally manipulative shit I shy away from now I pulled out in the VLG game.
So yeah, I lie about reasons that people should townread me. Would it be more helpful if I told the truth and just said 'nah whatever I've done so far I could've done as scum'?
I do what it takes to get correctly townread, and if that means fudging truths then so be it.
Is there a reason for which RC would be honest about this as town that he wouldn't be as scum?-
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@RC:
In post 336, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think that FA would be more inclinced to write me off as town here, especially since she's getting scumread for her indecisiveness.
FA isn't writing you off as town though, so does that tell you anything?-
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@The best, most kindest player in this game:
In post 252, shaddowez wrote:scum!Lowell
I see this kind of notation frequently on this site. Could you tell me why the exclamation mark is used here? Obviously the whole expression means to refer to Lowell in the past when he's been aligned with scum, or Lowell in this game under the hypothetical that he is a aligned with scum. But why an exclamation mark, and not, say, a hyphen?-
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Good luck, FA
In post 412, RadiantCowbells wrote:It means explicitly Lowell in this game as scum.
OK, so local to this game. Thx.
I really, really want to powerlynch APF atm if it weren't for the fact that I wanted to in 1757 and he was town.
Although I like the concept of powerlynching. It makes it sound like we're adding hydraulics to our gallows.-
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I'll respond to RC and comment on other things if there's time, otherwise hopefully I can get back to this tonight.
Spoiler: Self-meta crap
In post 416, RadiantCowbells wrote:What's your actual read on me? Why?
WARNING: What follows is the actual read.(sorry about the distant tone that just added )
I'm seeing you as an upper-town-lean right now.
I specifically recall 264 suggesting town to me due to the way it invited sortable statements. Also, specifically your first scumread of me pinged my gut as town: the timing of 43 combined with its further articulation in 52. I wasn't comfortable in your towniness because I was slightly pinged by 168 and 221. I think there were other posts that pinged me as either town or scum but I don't have the time to look for them now and they probably weren't that important if I can't remember them.
Your 412 and 416 though lift you from a barely town-lean to a high town-lean, since I gather from it that you're unsure if you're reading me correctly.-
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mhsmith's disengage from his bout with Jake in 498 and 500 feels awkward to me in a bad way. His "Is this a theory that you typically advocate as town?" strikes me as a way to sneakily tar someone as scum under the guise of an inquiry. I also felt what FA said here:
In post 469, Frozen Angel wrote:I felt you don't beleive what your writing. you were just trying to repeat , put together , make a case on him and gather votes but your tone was like your trying to show its not what I'm saying like you wanna distance yourself from the push.
I'd like to know what his read on Jake is.
Jake comes out looking better, but not entirely unbloodied. His stated reasons for having voted RC shift a bit:
427: He's useless as town and dangerous as scum, so let's get rid of him.
448: "there is an indication I am looking for scum. I placed a vote on somebody I think is scum and said my vote was serious." The new thing is "I placed a vote on somebody I think is scum"
460: Unpacking this one:
- He placed the vote on RC because that was what he'd thought he'd be doing upon signing up.
- But the posts Jake "did happen to read" of RC's made him think he was scum. This implies that he had viewed RC as scum, for reasons independent of his "useless as town, dangerous as scum" logic, as far back as the casting of his vote in 340. Yet these seemingly more pertinent reasons did not show any evidence of themselves until 427?
What's going on here, Jake? And why/how do you differentiate the mhsmith you've seen here from a particularly argumentative town!mhsmith?-
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In post 432, Lowell wrote:Jake is town, farmer is town. I'm back up to 'meh' on smith.
VOTE: nos
I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.
I'd also be up for a lurker hunt, if we have the time for it. Frankly I don't have a lot of bad vibes from anyone yet, so I'm clearly missing something. Either I'm wrong (impossible!) or one or more of the lurkers is scum.
Where did this vote come from? Your invocation of that Texas proverb would indicate that this isn't your first run-in with Nos.-
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In post 554, shaddowez wrote:In post 407, a plain farmer wrote:I'm also sympathetic to the Clumsy wagon.
Can you explain this? This is literally the fourth time you mention Clumsy in your ISO, and only one of them has anything to do with a read (which is useless anyway, since it's in your ordered reads list that has no info in it).
It's mostly a gut read right now, combined with a general absence of towniness in his posts.
In post 554, shaddowez wrote:You have almost no original content to speak of, and you're just comfortable voting for anyone that's getting attention.
This is about me, right? It seems that way, since it seems like that whole post was about me, but it feels like you drew these accusations from a hat.
In post 556, shaddowez wrote:The interactions between FA and RC have me on edge, and continue to do so. I don't think they'rebothscum, but wouldn't be surprised if one of them flips red. There's stuff I don't like from both of them, so I'd rather wait to vote there until I'm more sure.
Am I wrong in concluding after reading this bit that you think it unlikely they are both town?-
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@Frozen Angel:
RC said this about you a while back:
In post 341, RadiantCowbells wrote:Read scumread as attacked, FA!scum doesn't like being attacked. she omguses and changes her views and stuff.
Then you had this exchange with Jake:
In post 565, Jake from State Farm wrote:Pregame you seemed to not like shadow and roshar and wanted more from nos. game starts you vote nos for him making a mountain out of a molehill or something like that.
If you were using pregame after the game started, I would think you would have voted one of the people you were suspicious of and not the one you needed more from. Just my opinion though.
In post 605, Frozen Angel wrote:In post 594, Jake from State Farm wrote:oh and fyi, stop accusing people of being defensive like it actually means something. It doesn't. Town and scum both can be defensive.
They can but your reaction / I don't care about getting lynched and your sudden hippocratic push on me "becuase I didn't start the day phase voting the same persons I called scum in pregame" is scummy as shit
(There were other posts to it on pages 23-25, but I didn't want to bloat this post with them and the ones I quoted suffice to summarize the relevance to the RC quote)
This seems to fit what RC said about your scumgame. We have the "attack", the change of views (since you previously seemed to be townreading Jake from what I could tell based on 428), and the omgus.
Is what RC said wrong? Is what RC said true, but not applicable here for some reason? (Or is it true, applicable, and a scumtell? )
RC, feel free to weigh in too if you have any thoughts.-
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In post 518, mhsmith0 wrote:Wrt jake, I find myself ever more frustrated with trying to get him to open up at all. It feels like pulling teeth and it really shouldn't. I owe him a meta dive (not ASAP but def. by this weekend) to see if he's always super closed, if he often jumps in with "ok I found the scum guys" type posts representing theories he hasn't fully thought through or came down on one side and just ignored other plausible explanations. But my gut is saying that I'll probably see similar behavior from him in either alignment, and that he's just going to live perpetually in the null zone by choice, because that's where he wants to be.
It's the sort of behavior that IMO makes the game less pleasant, regardless of his alignment. And there's a post game rant that I'll probably go on about why I dislike this behavior so much. But if you want me to give you a strong alignment read on him, I can't. Maybe he'll start to open up and let him be read one way or the other. I hope he does. But I suspect he won't, and that further efforts to get much out of him are likely to be fruitless. Maybe I'll change my mind on that going forward, or maybe someone else will do a better job getting something substantive out of him. But at least right now, I don't know what to make of his alignment, and I'm not optimistic that I'll get much of a better read any time soon. Sorry for not being able to give you a better or more definitive answer, but that's where I am on him right now.
Alright, so null. Let me know if today's events moved the needle at all.
For my part, I have a town-lean on Jake and don't think we should lynch him. I had a bad feeling about some of the things he said. But most of the arguments against him are based on NAI playstyle issues. There was someone saying something to the effect that he didn't have a case on mhsmith. It's true that he doesn't have a comprehensive 'The Case on Mhsmith' post, but it's not hard to glean from what he's written that he sees mhsmith as having been non-genuine on specific instances. Then there's Maverick's points against him, which I may summarize as follows:
1) Jake said the people pressuring mhsmith were pressuring him so that he'd remove his vote (but Jake didn't say this. He was saying that mhsmith got pressured in general, so then removed his vote in hopes that it would reduce the heat on him).
2) Jake isn't trying to convince town to lynch his scumread (but he did say why he thought mhsmith was scum, and the degree of subsequent politicking one does for it is a playstyle thing).
3) Jake was angling for towncred (this might be in the eye of the beholder. I didn't really interpret anything he said like this).-
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In post 661, Frozen Angel wrote:Calling that omgus is sick.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=64645
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65639
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=64492
And thats not a scum tell of me. I do reevaluate my reads however I want to.
Alright, I'll consider this. But I'm not going to read 400 pages of stuff. Do you recall where I should look in these three games?-
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In post 760, shaddowez wrote:
It was about you. Are you denying that what I said is correct? If so, please point me to content that proves so.In post 658, a plain farmer wrote:In post 554, shaddowez wrote:You have almost no original content to speak of, and you're just comfortable voting for anyone that's getting attention.
This is about me, right? It seems that way, since it seems like that whole post was about me, but it feels like you drew these accusations from a hat.
"I have an idea! I'll pick two random accusations, then pick a random person at which to level them. Then, when he complains about it, I'll ask him to prove why he's not doing that!"
In post 885, RadiantCowbells wrote:Fuck it before I replace
PK is conftown for the way the mods dealt with the replacement.
Nosferatu I've been going off on but (s)he's town.
Jeanne is town as well.
Don't lynch any of those people ever this game.
Shadow is still my major scumread.
GL
(emphasis mine) Was RC actually meaning Jeanne here? The KainTepes/Jeanne ISO is a combined 9 posts long, and I don't see anything alignment-indicative enough to warrant this.-
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In post 937, Maxous wrote:The way I interpreted the early game, there was a lot of aggressive town-arguing going on between {Radiant Cowbells-Frozen Angel-Roshar} and then later with {Jake-Frozen Angel.}
I would focus on the people skirting around the arguments, trying not to get involved as I would think the scum players would really want to avoid getting dragged in to arguments.
I like this.
In post 939, Maxous wrote:In post 857, Jeanne11 wrote:I am in a cage and the key is thrown away
Gently do the winds in the trees sway.
VOTE: Jake
In post 863, Jeanne11 wrote:Because he just is. I will always chase tunnelers as tunnelers will always be scum to me.
one last thing, this vote was crap and kinda scummy.
I also like this.
Except for a certain thing in 937 that I don't much like, I feel that Max has been saying wise things so far.-
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@pk: what do you mean by "floating around" with regard to RC?
In post 961, Titus wrote:What are the cases on the two major wagons.
I'll let someone who scumreads the Jake/Max slot explain that case. But with Clumsy, it's basically that he hasn't been trying to figure out the game (also, his posts make me feel like he doesn't have a stake in figuring out the game), and he's also been laying low. A running theme of his posts is Information Instead Of Analysis, which is probably overrated as a scumtell, but with what Clumsy's shown so far it seems a particularly appropriate tell to use.
Posts from his ISO that pinged me:
34 - Musings on PLing Kain and the number of scum we can expect in the game.
132 - Discards an easy opportunity to probe Lowell and instead just chalks it up to egotism.
305 - Says he plans to ISO Rosh and I. Admittedly, we can't know for sure that he didn't follow through.
561 - I'll give him some credit for questioning Rosh here, even though it was kind of a layup. But the rest of the post feels like he wants to be heard saying stuff.
573 - Says stuff about how Jake should play, but not really anything to discern Jake's alignment or what Jake thinks the alignments of others are.
892...910 - Premature talk about when we should hammer.
932, 935 - Advancing the position that the mod's actions are not alignment indicative (I concur with him, but he seems to be taking great pains to present IIOA).
949 - I might be reaching here, but I get a feeling of "Look at me, I'm so town!" feeling from the way he makes sure we know he's putting the interests of the town ahead of his own survival.-
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@ Maverick: so it wasn't the slot you didn't like, but the player (referring to Jake). That's understandable. But were you able to salvage anything alignment indicative from the slot?
@ Nos:
In post 951, Nosferatu wrote:I only analyze the posts of my scum reads when I have one, and I tonally read everyone else.
Which of these levels are you at with mhsmith? (or are you still leaning scum on him)
And I realize I'm scumreading Clumsy more than shaddow now.
VOTE: Clumsy-
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In post 983, Clumsy wrote:In post 976, a plain farmer wrote:
And I realize I'm scumreading Clumsy more than shaddow now.
VOTE: Clumsy
Could you explain why exactly? I can understand, because of my inactivity and the fact that others are thinking the same as you, but I'm wary of the runner up wagon jumping onto the leading wagon.
Because of the stuff I said in 964.
In post 992, Nosferatu wrote:In post 976, a plain farmer wrote:
@ Nos:
In post 951, Nosferatu wrote:I only analyze the posts of my scum reads when I have one, and I tonally read everyone else.
Which of these levels are you at with mhsmith? (or are you still leaning scum on him)
I'm ignoring him atm
Alright. I'd recommend against consciously ignoring people, but there's been enough debating of playstyles in this thread.
Do you have any thoughts on Clumsy or his wagon?
In post 998, Froot Loop wrote:In post 132, Clumsy wrote:
-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.
I read this as a firm response to Lowell saying he faked a townslip. But APF thinks he missed an opportunity to question Lowell further (post 964)
It was more than just that he missed the opportunity. It's that he posits it as a result of egotism. That seems like an extremely improbable reaction to what Lowell actually said. Normally, when a town player reacts indignantly like this, they'll say something like "That's either the most egotistical thing I've seen in a while, or you're scum." But Clumsy didn't add that part to his accusation, and didn't ask about anything in any way that would make me think he thought about Lowell's alignment.
In post 998, Froot Loop wrote:In post 561, Clumsy wrote:
At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.
Town read on Maverick.@APF - you interpreted these as empty words in post 964?
It felt like scum feeling easy about handing out a townread because of prior knowledge of what everyone's alignment is. Specifically, the way he said how his reads had progressed, despite there not actually having been evidence of such a progression.-
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I'm back. I still think Clumsy looks like the best lynch we could do. His posts the past few days provide more in the way of content, but, as pisskop said (bye pk ) it's been "mechanical" (or perhaps it'd be better to say it's rote). So on the whole I don't see them as alignment indicative.
Nos has been hard to read. I don't have any experience with her so I can't say whether her reported self-meta is accurate. I don't think she's a good lynch today.-
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In post 1152, Roshar wrote:@Nosferatu,(mhs and APF too if you can) what's your read on Max and him advocating Huntress for the lynch in 1077 (her only post with game content at the time of the scum read was 971 and Jeanne's 857 and 863) and then his subsequent vote on her a couple pages later? Last I remember you were giving Jake a town read (and he gave you a town read as well). I should add Max found Jeane suspicious in 939.
Just realized his post 1077 he didn't bother voting for either lynch candidates. Much conviction.
I was also pinged by Jeanne's vote on Jake. I do believe her when she said she doesn't like tunnelers, but I don't think Jake had really been tunneling at the time. So one way to make sense of that post is to see it as scum pushing through a lynch using one's established preferences as cover. So of course I also buy Max's scumread of the slot as legitimate.
In post 1155, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Anybody wanna humor me with the short version of this game?
In the beginning, there was an extended pregame in which there was some horseplay and I think Rosh was the most prevalent scumread.
Then the game started, and activity revolved around these 1v1s for a while:
Mhsmith vs Nos
Mhsmith vs Jake (now Max)
Maverick (now FA_Q2) vs Jake
Jake vs FA (now you)
That last one got toxic and a bunch of people were replaced and the activity has slowed down. Jake was the first big wagon, and now the second is Clumsy. For more on Clumsy's scumminess, look at the posts Froot linked to in 1153, especially 964.Last edited by Ircher on Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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Looking at the situation of this game, I'm confident the town will end up with a Clumsy caucus in the coming hours. Shaddow's a former Clumsy voter, Nos townreads Max, and Max himself I'd expect will also vote Clumsy if needed in a deadline rush. So let's make it official, shall we?
In post 1176, Froot Loop wrote:In post 1156, a plain farmer wrote:
I was also pinged by Jeanne's vote on Jake. I do believe her when she said she doesn't like tunnelers, but I don't think Jake had really been tunneling at the time. So one way to make sense of that post is to see it as scum pushing through a lynch using one's established preferences as cover. So of courseI also buy Max's scumread of the slot as legitimate.
(my bold)
@APF - can you explain what you mean by 'legitimate'?
I mean that it doesn't look like a read that a scum just fudged for whatever purpose. I see where he's coming from, so if he's giving that read as scum, he's at least doing it in a way that accurately emulates what a townie might be thinking.-
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And Johnny, you should vote for Clumsy. Here's why:
In post 964, a plain farmer wrote:In post 961, Titus wrote:What are the cases on the two major wagons.
I'll let someone who scumreads the Jake/Max slot explain that case. But with Clumsy, it's basically that he hasn't been trying to figure out the game (also, his posts make me feel like he doesn't have a stake in figuring out the game), and he's also been laying low. A running theme of his posts is Information Instead Of Analysis, which is probably overrated as a scumtell, but with what Clumsy's shown so far it seems a particularly appropriate tell to use.
Posts from his ISO that pinged me:
34 - Musings on PLing Kain and the number of scum we can expect in the game.
132 - Discards an easy opportunity to probe Lowell and instead just chalks it up to egotism.
305 - Says he plans to ISO Rosh and I. Admittedly, we can't know for sure that he didn't follow through.
561 - I'll give him some credit for questioning Rosh here, even though it was kind of a layup. But the rest of the post feels like he wants to be heard saying stuff.
573 - Says stuff about how Jake should play, but not really anything to discern Jake's alignment or what Jake thinks the alignments of others are.
892...910 - Premature talk about when we should hammer.
932, 935 - Advancing the position that the mod's actions are not alignment indicative (I concur with him, but he seems to be taking great pains to present IIOA).
949 - I might be reaching here, but I get a feeling of "Look at me, I'm so town!" feeling from the way he makes sure we know he's putting the interests of the town ahead of his own survival.-
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I'm sorry about my absence in this game. I'm going to try to get back to this thread more often. Regarding the reasons for voting Max that Froot pointed me towards (1276), the only one that strikes me as possibly scummy is #1.
My lynchpool right now is {mhsmith, huntress, shaddow, Lowell}, and I'm feeling like voting that last one atm.
VOTE: Lowell-
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In post 1319, Lowell wrote:Also, all votes on my are opportunistic as hell. There's the scum trying to score an easy mislynch type, and there's the townie "well, I don't know wtf is happening but at least if I vote Lowell I'll be able to hem and haw afterwards about how unhelpful he was and I won't take the blame." Make sure if you're voting me you're the first type-- I'll take care of them.
Well, one way to make sure people can't hem and haw about how unhelpful you are is to be helpful.
I'll point out in case anyone missed it that D2 is going to be shorter than D1. We have just under 6 days left.
@Johnny: When you complained about Froot, Titus, Fack, and Max in 1292, was any of what you pointed out alignment indicative, or were you just annoyed by them?
@Fack: Is the Johnny vote because of the "threatening"? And is it really worse in your eyes than what you saw Titus doing?
@Mhsmith: Regarding players still in the game, the only read of yours that I recall is a little bit of suspicion towards Rosh, so is that your main scumread (or do you have other scumreads)? Also, how do you feel about Max?-
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I'm not comfortable with the Lowell vote anymore. Faq's climb on it strikes me as suspicious in an opportunistic way.
VOTE: FA_Q2
I'm still interested in the answer to this question, btw, even though he seems to have moved on:
In post 1321, a plain farmer wrote:@Fack: Is the Johnny vote because of the "threatening"? And is it really worse in your eyes than what you saw Titus doing?-
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Faq's 1395 seems rather fabricated to me, and trying to snowball a wagon would be a something I'd expect from scum at this time of day. Lowell was right when he suggested his general unhelpfulness up to this point makes him the easy wagon to jump on, so his would be a good choice for scum looking to make one of the wagons the frontrunner.-
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I'll try to comment on some other things tomorrow, but for now I'll address a couple things directed to me:
In post 1413, Froot Loop wrote:In post 1405, a plain farmer wrote:Faq's 1395 seems rather fabricated to me, and trying to snowball a wagon would be a something I'd expect from scum at this time of day. Lowell was right when he suggested his general unhelpfulness up to this point makes him the easy wagon to jump on, so his would be a good choice for scum looking to make one of the wagons the frontrunner.
What is about FAQ's post which makes you think it was fabricated?
The way FAQ contends that Lowell is scummy is rather implicit and oblique. "Why go there and ignore Rosh's push back?" and "This statement really does not make sense." are things he could say to let readers piece together in their own minds why Lowell is scum, giving FAQ the benefit of the doubt, and allowing him to say that he's town and he was merely a little bit lazy with that post.
Then consider the circumstances: the day is winding down, his vote made Lowell the largest wagon, and Lowell is a rather easy vote at the moment. It reeks to me of subtly trying to direct the town towards a mislynch.
In post 1428, FA_Q2 wrote:0The interesting thing about this statement (and your vote) is that applies equally to what you just pulled. Further, you avoided anything I have actually stated, utterly ignored the case I put forth and essentially said I am scum because I voted loewll. Not even a question or a challenge for me to answer.
Very poor vote :/
I did leave you a thing to chew on:
In post 1403, a plain farmer wrote:I'm still interested in the answer to this question, btw, even though he seems to have moved on:
In post 1321, a plain farmer wrote:@Fack: Is the Johnny vote because of the "threatening"? And is it really worse in your eyes than what you saw Titus doing?-
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I looked at Rosh and Max over the last few pages. Regarding Rosh and Froot's neighbor debate, I don't see anything alignment indicative about the actual positions they advance (I suppose Rosh's may be a little more convenient for scum, but it's negligible). It mostly reinforced my townread on Rosh.
Regarding Max, if he's flailing scum, then it certainly isn't obvious. I don't see anything he's done that's looked like it was more likely to have come from scum than town. The argument against Max seems to be:
1) He's pushing easy wagons.
2) His NKA is objectionable.
3) He engaged in frivolous doubtcasting.
I didn't feel inclined to agree with any of those upon my re-read.
1) The easy wagons he's pushed were easy for a reason (and his boarding of them didn't strike me as opportunistic). He voted Lowell because of his NKA (more on that in point 2). His vote on Huntress (even though the reason given in 1408 isn't the most compelling) was a result of what has been a continuous scumread of his since D1.
2) I don't think the Nos kill is damning for Lowell, but Nos didn't have many reads and Lowell was her most unambiguous scumread. It shouldn't have been terribly controversial then for Max to have advanced this hypothesis that the scum killed someone that was locked in on him.
3) This is specifically referring to Titus's 1289. I'd point out here that Max wasn't really doubtcasting 3-4 slots, but rather two (Lowell and Huntress), and was only disagreeing with two more (Johnny and Froot) who had posted things about him. And, as I said above, I don't see reason to think Max's scumread of Lowell and Huntress is scummy.-
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My reaction to jake vs frozen? You mean my lack of one? I posed some questions to Jake and FA, but I didn't get any reads from their actual 1v1. And my scumread on Clumsy D1 was initially a gut read. It kept getting stronger, though, and I posted with that case on him after I looked back through the game to figure out in concrete terms what my gut didn't like about him.
I of course oppose lynching Max, but at L-1 with two people giving intent to hammer, it looks like he's pretty much dead. I'll swap out mhsmith with FAQ in my lynchpool, making it {FAQ, Huntress, Garmr, Lowell}. If anyone is having second thoughts and wants to get a flash lynch on one of those, speak up now.-
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In post 1509, Titus wrote:Ok, I will want to make a couple of checks but right now I think we need to look at the players who did not push any wagon heavily D1 since both flipped town.
There are four slots that I'd characterize as not having pushed either of the D1 wagons heavily:
FAQ: Maverick votes Clumsy in 962/963 but doesn't seem to have any conviction in it. Then when FAQ replaces in, he doesn't acknowledge his predecessor's vote, but allows it to stay there through the lynch and doesn't mention Clumsy aside from asking a question.
Huntress: Says she scumreads Clumsy in 971 but doesn't elaborate. By 1121 she is expressing doubts about his wagon, and in 1196 states a preference for lynching Max. In 1209 says she's taking her time in voting Max because her main scumread (at the time, Rosh) was on the Max wagon. She then votes Max in 1239 citing no realistic chance of lynching Rosh.
Johnny: Says in 1244 that 1207 is the only thing making him want to vote Clumsy, then votes him in 1252.
Shaddow(Garmr): Wasn't on either the Clumsy or Max wagon.
Of these, the only one whose actions vis-a-vis the D1 wagons seem scummy is FAQ, since he basically helped a wagon go through without doing anything to invite blame on himself.
Do you have a reason why not having heavily pushed either of these wagons is inherently scummy?-
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I'd like to ask some people about their reads on certain other people. The names I ask about aren't arbitrary, but I don't want to say why I picked them.
@FAQ:What are your feelings on Johnny, Rosh, and Garmr?
@Garmr:What are your feelings on Johnny, FAQ, and Titus?
@Huntress:What are your feelings on FAQ, Lowell, and mhsmith?
@Rosh:The scumslip you mention in 1581 might be something. However, my past experiences tell me to treat such things with a grain of salt. In looking at my own scumlean on Huntress, I see that it was mostly due to Jeanne's Jake vote and Huntress's general unhelpfulness, which isn't a strong read. That combined with Huntress's response to your push having felt town to me makes not eager to lynch her (I would give her the smallest of town-leans atm).-
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@Titus:
In post 1595, Titus wrote:We know Clumsy is town. Max is town too. We have Pisskop, Huntress and Max who are refusing to do anything here. Huntress later takes a stand but doesn't really push anything.
Given we know that Clumsy and Max are town, Pisskop and Huntress are the ideal places to sort next.
What about the Maverick/FAQ slot? As I said a few pages ago regarding that slot's lack of pushing during this time:
In post 1549, a plain farmer wrote:FAQ: Maverick votes Clumsy in 962/963 but doesn't seem to have any conviction in it. Then when FAQ replaces in, he doesn't acknowledge his predecessor's vote, but allows it to stay there through the lynch and doesn't mention Clumsy aside from asking a question.
@Rosh:
In post 1590, Roshar wrote:@APF, how would you evaluate that 'slip' if Huntress flipped scum? And what would you think about Lowell's stance on Huntress? I'm mainly referring to the fact:
1)She was on his list of people he was not okay lynching D2
2) That he thinks people voting him are, "opportunistic as hell". Yet, when Huntress was apparently willing to divert two L-5 lynches on him D1, he didn't comment.
If Huntress were to flip scum, then I might see that as her distancing herself from Lowell. As for what Lowell's stance on Huntress would mean, I really don't know. I do think that Lowell had more reason to feel threatened when he had an emerging wagon on him on D2 than when it was late D1 and there were already two wagons at L-2, so that could be why he responded on D2 but not D1.-
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