Mini Normal 1814 Machiavellian Mafia (Game Over)

[Zap Rowsdower]

VOTE: BYF

Preemptive attempt to control image

Also a little

too

enthusiastic about yoshi ya know what I mean

[Zap Rowsdower]

^MW scores my first townlean for acting like the game isn't moving fast enough within the first day of play

Rosske's avatar looks like minced cilantro

My sig still isn't showing up for some reason

[Zap Rowsdower]

That doesn't seem like anything scum wouldn't do. I really don't like that townread at all.

Spoiler:

I'll explain some more.

Person with a recent join date enters a game as scum: "I am excited but also nervous, so I'll hang back and see what other people do."

Person with a recent join date enters a game as town: "I am excited and want to find scum omg why isn't this game moving faster, it's been open like six hours and we still don't have a wagon going yet!"

Probably wouldn't hold up in court but hey I think it's a good enough reason on page one.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Maybe for a first ever game but in that first game people generally realize that other players like activity.

k but there's a difference between trying to be active so people won't scumread you and pushing other players to be active because you think the game is moving too slow...less than a full day after it opened

p-edit: yeah looks fine for me in mafblack

[Zap Rowsdower]

Alt. But you'll never figured out who my main is!!!!!!!!!!

And I don't consider it to be "next to nothing." It's a little something. It's like a step above "gut" and a rung or two below "confidence." It's the first (first and a half?) thing I saw that was really worth commenting on, basically.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Ohhhh didn't realize that was a setting. Thanks.

And why elyse?

[Zap Rowsdower]

um...I can't tell if you're being serious. Are you actually really claiming day cop with a guilty on Elyse? I looked on the wiki for normal games and it says nothing about day cops or having roles that function during the day in general.

p-edit: @dwlee

[Zap Rowsdower]

All games in the mini normal archives with a day cop:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 49#p465749
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 09#p376709
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4201486

The two older ones have setups that exist somewhere on the unbalanced->role madness->bastard range. The more recent one has a much calmer setup.

So, yeah, day cop could exist.

Elyse, you stand accused. What say you?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I think I understand everyone's reactions so far except Nero's.

Why do you think Dw lying makes him scum? And why do you think he's lying anyway?

[Zap Rowsdower]

please quote the post where I accuse DW of lying.

Huh, thought you'd said that. Nevermind then.

[Zap Rowsdower]

K. Let's do...

VOTE: Dwlee

@mod: last vote count has nero cain not voting for anybody; his vote should be on dwlee

[Zap Rowsdower]

That immediate OMGUS seems like an admission of guilt to me.

Not sure I follow you

[Zap Rowsdower]

UNVOTE:
Thanks for the valuable information guys. The reaction test was a success. Elyse probably isn't scum

I'm gonna need some specifics on your reaction test plz

[Zap Rowsdower]

Map Wolf deserves rope for his "let me place an L-1 vote on Elyse real quick but Dwlee is responsible if she flips town and no one hammer pls!!!"

ok yeah but

blackstar tho

[Zap Rowsdower]

It was obvious the whole time

Hm....I can see that being true with your posting. That or it's some grade A bullshit.

If it's true then yeah Map looks like Ziox.

I think this will put Map at like L-3 or so.

VOTE: Map

Gonna p stoked if we really just caught scum.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You looks fake

[Zap Rowsdower]

I don't mean that. I'm sorry.

For real though, Elyse's immediate reaction to the day cop claim looks town. It should by no means clear her because she is Elyse, but it looks town for more reason than one: She didn't attempt a CC, and scum might resist the urge to CC, but then it would probably be safer to just lurk it out if you were scum who didn't want to CC.

I lean town on Skold too. The reactions are fakeable, but it does look like he's trying to grind through and figure stuff out here. Admitting he was thinking about voting Elyse pings toward town side of the spectrum too.

Ira is ira. Willing to sleep on Blackstar for now.

[Zap Rowsdower]

People who haven't been around to comment on the Dw fake result: Comparing Realities, BYF, gerryoat

[Zap Rowsdower]

VOTE: Zap Rowsdower

Thoughts on MW, Blackstar and Rosske?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Now, Zap, I think it's a scummy move to bring up those who haven't spoken upon the topic yet.

I'm guessing the site you come from doesn't have two-week-long day phases? Because ime it makes sense to mark stuff like this for later.

Ira is ira.

Do I know you?

Do

you

know you?

Skold do you only care about answers to those questions if they come from Map or Elyse, or are you asking in general?

[Zap Rowsdower]

a fellow townie

[Zap Rowsdower]

Well, all "reaction test"'s are bad, but Elyse's "reaction test" was the only one which looked scum-aligned and fake.

Weird reasoning in this and a lot of ira posts, but my gut points town on ira. Just looks like a guy tryin to run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking. Racing around to come up behind him again.

I'm sorry if I just want to see why a fellow townie

I mean. I just. This wording, guys. This wording.

I want to see where you're head's going with this ridiculous claim.

I just. I just.

Like, the sewing of certain words into these sentences. The thought process I see behind that.

He says "I just want to see why a fellow townie has suspicion on me". Which is either a scum-aligned slip that he knows I'm town-aligned, or presenting a town-aligned read on me.

Right?

Alright now that I've seen everything, I understand what Map Wolf did was scummy but like, aren't the at like L-3 or L-2 right now? I think it's a little too early to be putting someone that close to lynch when it's till not even 10 pages into the game. I'm pretty sure we have like 54 or 72 hours to get a lynch, so I'm a bit worried that votes are piling up on Map Wolf so easily.

omg. Why this. This is such classic scummy looking caution.

I don't think you are scum, which is why I am so curious as to why you think I am scum.

...a townie wouldn't think you're scum?

That doesn't seem like anything scum wouldn't do. I really don't like that townread at all.

Spoiler:

I'll explain some more.

Person with a recent join date enters a game as scum: "I am excited but also nervous, so I'll hang back and see what other people do."

Person with a recent join date enters a game as town: "I am excited and want to find scum omg why isn't this game moving faster, it's been open like six hours and we still don't have a wagon going yet!"

Probably wouldn't hold up in court but hey I think it's a good enough reason on page one.

You're already underestimating me.

This is scum-aligned because he is questioning a town-aligned read on him, and in a scum-aligned way (not being suspicious of Zap Rowsdower for saying this).

Uh, actually that post had nothing to do with BYF. I was talking about MapWolf. Didn't even notice at the time that BYF was confusing it.

Because some people have different tendencies. Someone may want to be more cautious in their first game because they don't wanna mess up the game, not because they are mafia. Someone might be mafia and be more energetic because they feel more comfortable being mafia than town.

Way past all this now.

Oh, I bet if we were both scum it would blow your minds, but I know for a fact that one isn't.

AGH

[Zap Rowsdower]

Honestly I wanted to just go back to BYF at times during that. But then I kept thinking where is MapWolf? And what would scum want to do if their partner MapWolf was being run up right now? And then I was like nah let's keep it on MapWolf.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Zap points out a bunch of good things that point to BYFscum but doesn't vote him

Yup.

BigYoshiFan, you should really just tell us your claim.

Well this was a weird thing to say.

Is swearing allowed on this site?

Yeah but personal attacks are not. So "I fucking hate your argument" is fine, but "You are stupid" is not.

I'm interested to see what Map Wolf has to see when he gets back, and depending on his response I'll potentialy be down to hammer.

For now VOTE: BigYoshiFan

This looks bad. Especially if Map is scum and BYF is town. But even just on its face, this really sets Rosske up to follow momentum around.

Hm....I can see that being true with your posting. That or it's some grade A bullshit.

Does sitting on that fence hurt?

What I was saying was that the explanation + past posting from Blackstar pushed my thoughts on him away from the middle and out toward the edge. As in, if I'm gonna believe he's scum then now I have to also believe he's a pretty good bullshitter, as opposed to a bumbling fool.

[Zap Rowsdower]

@zap Whay have I done that would make you say I'm a bumbling fool?

Not what I was saying. I was contrasting hypotheticals about your possible scum play.

Not terribly convinced by Map's more recent posts.

Ira where did you land on the whole MapWolf thing jc

[Zap Rowsdower]

I get the rosske wagon. Might even join it, idk.

Gerry (I think it was gerry?) pointed out that scum might want to fakeclaim. Which, yeah, might as well, right? And that got me thinking about the tone of Map's response, which was more "idrgaftbh" than "I want to live" / "I want to protect my partners" / "ahhhh town found me out"

Whereas rosske went for Elyse after Dwlee's fake result, then later pushed the Map wagon while simultaneously pushing BYF, who myself and other people were talking about.

HmmmmMMMMmmmmmm

Here's the thing is I can still see Map being scum, and easily. And that "rosske looks like my scumpartner" could actually be a scum-headed-for-the-noose-type thing to post. As could the rest of the readslist, really.

Cooled down on BYF some, but far from townreading the slot. I feel a little lost right now actually.

Still pretty sure ira is town, along with Dw, and probably Elyse and Nero and Maria.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Prop scum?

OK so yeah looking back at how voting has gone since 275 I actually think the Map wagon kinda looks like a mislynch. Specifically, the BYF vote on Map (happened under pressure for the way he was approaching the 1v1 with ira), the rosske vote on BYF (while encouraging the Map wagon, which was at L-1) and then Rosske's reaction to Nero's fakehammer in 366 (just a flat statement, ie hesitant to judge).

There's just some weirdness in there and it keeps coming back to that bowl of minced cilantro.

VOTE: rosske

[Zap Rowsdower]

Did I vote right? How come it looks different than everyone elses lol

Mods usually accept bolded or in vote tags, so yours should be fine. Vote tags are cooler though. Use this to do it that way:

Code: Select all

[v]Rosske[/v]

[Zap Rowsdower]

"Maybe if itlepip shared any information with me at all, I would know which Machiavelli quotes I should include, or if it mattered. But alas, he doesn't, so I don't. So you're stuck with these stupid substitutes."

Trouble in modland?

And yeah the makeup of the Rosske wagon looks pretty good to me. I didn't realize it was already at L-1 but honestly I'm having fun with how crazy this D1 has been.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You really think Dwlee is scummy?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Oh yeah you voted him. Forgot about that.

I disagree with your reasons and think it's weird to pick Nero or Dw over Rosske, Map or even BYF or Blackstar.

p-edit: K, and what about his voting pattern?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Lol nobody understands

[Zap Rowsdower]

Whose voting pattern?

Rosske's voting pattern.

-Voted Elyse after Dwlee's fake result, but engaged minimally with the wagon while we all focused on Map and Blackstar instead
-Voted BYF right as people were starting to get suspicious about him, but simultaneously supported the L-1 Map wagon
-Voted for the Iraq war, then later called it a mistake

119 shows that he is thinking critically as opposed to the scum-aligned move of reading Dwlee as town-aligned for WIFOM reasons

See but scum don't want town to treat town like they're town. So if Dwlee is town, and I think he is, then we have a player here (Rosske) trying to keep a town under suspicion.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Not gonna hammer, but I can if I wanted to.

Is this just like a factual statement, like literally you have the physical ability to type out a vote for Rosske and then submit it, or what's goin on here

[Zap Rowsdower]

So it's like a pre-intent to hammer.

Do you scumread Rosske?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I have 10 days to make a decision and y'all have 10 days to revise your decision, why not use it?

It's really not always a good thing to use the full day for a couple reasons. One is that town can overthink things and let scum push them in the wrong direction. Another is that it can just wear town down and make them less good at scumhunting.

[Zap Rowsdower]

So you think Yoshi should go ahead and hammer?

Tbh I was more arguing against the principle of using the entire day on its face. I'd rather have somebody other than Yoshi hammer tho.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Why is that? Because I already have a vote on Map or you don't value my newbie opinions (I won't be offended if so).

Because I still have you down for possible scum, and I agree with the thought that we have a good towny-lookin wagon here on Rosske. So if Rosske flips scum, it'd be fantastic to have confidence in the wagon that lynched him.

p-edit: @nero: Nah, I lean town on you

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah let's not push for rosske to claim.

UNVOTE:

I'm gonna go commune with Mother Nature before deciding who to vote

[Zap Rowsdower]

I mean, do you not support the end of the Rosske wagon?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Actually no, I changed my mind after looking again. I think he is scum-aligned.

VOTE: Map Wolf

So, I'm not sure if scumIra would do this if Map is town. Just seems like something that would look pretty awful if Map flipped town. I could see it happening if Map was scum, especially if scum have day chat and Map told ira to do it or something. But it's just such an abrupt, unexplained turnaround that was guaranteed to draw attention.

Then later we have ira hopping around to all these widely-townread (or at least town-leaned) players like Dwlee and Nero, while saying that players like BYF and Rosske look town. All this happening while we run up Rosske. Again, this would be a pretty brazen way to approach the situation if ira were partners with Rosske. So if ira is scum, then I think Rosske is most probably town.

At first I was reading ira's play as town because it seemed like he was trying to figure things out, pressuring players who didn't post much so that he'd have things to read them on, etc. But some stuff has just been weird. Like telling BYF that he should claim when BYF had very few votes on him (or zero?) Then later, this one:

No, of course not, and you don't really care about the answer, you just want reasons to accuse me. Just like all of the other questions you ask...

Which was in response to Nero asking ira to provide examples for a theory he'd just given. It was a fair question; ira was using the theory (that the idea of "wagon resistance" comes from scum more often than town) to justify a scumread on Nero. Ira stated it like a fact, suggesting he'd seen it in the past. Pressed to give evidence, he acted like it would be ridiculous for him to have evidence and then tried to turn it back on Nero.

At that point, "fake as shit" starts to sound like a reasonable way to describe ira's read on Nero.

BUT while everyone else was off pushing Map, ira was walling with BYF, only to later declare BYF town and hop onto the Map wagon with him. Then, while everyone else was off running up Rosske, ira was tearing away at Nero and Dwlee.

If ira is likely not partners with Rosske, and we want to assume for the sake of argument that ira is scum, that means scum was almost certainly on the Rosske wagon. And if we want to assume for the sake of argument that ira could be partners with Map, then my bet would be that the third scum wasn't on the Map wagon and may have been either lurking, not voting or otherwise just committed to another wagon.

I know this is all a little premature but I'm hoping it becomes useful later and I'm hoping it'll help me get my bearings back.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Sorry for the post length.

I'm sorry if I just want to see why a fellow townie has suspicion on me.

I don't want to discount the possibility that this whole thing between BYF and ira was scum theater. The "fellow townie" thing is some wonky wording for sure, but in my head if I'm treating BYF as scum then it makes sense both in the context of ira being town and ira being a partner.

That being the case, it raises some interesting questions based on the timing of it all. They started doing this as Map was being run up (ira was voting Map, he switched to BYF in the middle of their argument). So if anything the ira-BYF walling served to distract from the Map wagon. That could point to Map as scum too, it would kind of suck for scum to distract from a wagon on a townie only to make each other look worse.

But then we have the weirdness where both of them stop arguing and vote Map together:

Still think Map Wolf is the best lynch for today.

Agreed. VOTE: Map Wolf

I'm aware that this might make me look bad, but I think that I was wrong about BigYoshiFan being scum-aligned.

(snip)

VOTE: Map Wolf

Which, if I'm gonna think about it in terms of BYF and ira being scum together and trying to distract from their partner Map, does seem like an awfully strange move. Ira's vote put Map at L-1. No, it's not just strange. It's sophisticated machinery. It's like a tactician's work, and I just don't know how many people would even think to do that.

And then let's flip Map over to being town and BYF and ira are partners. That means that not only did BYF and ira wall with each other while distracting from the Map wagon, risking tearing apart a mislynch while putting scum in jeopardy, but they then coordinated with each other to vote a mislynch at the same time, and even put it at L-1. That also seems unlikely for scum to do.

So, long story short, I don't think that BYF, ira and Map are all partners together, and I actually don't think that ira is partners with BYF either. It could be possible that Map and ira are partners, or that BYF is partners with Map.

But thinking about it a bit more now, I'm not so big on the thought of map being scum. There's the eagerness to start the game, which is a little bit o' somethin', and then there's the VT claim, which is a little more o' somethin', and there's the way people approached the wagon, which is also somethin'. Altogether they make up a little bit more than a little bit.

[Zap Rowsdower]

By the end of this day we're gonna have half the town claiming

Not a bad point. I liked the way Rosske did it, actually. I don't know that I've seen this before, but here's an idea: what if we agree on a policy where people don't full claim D1, only say that they're either a VT or a PR? That way we can minimize the info that scum get (let's assume Rosske is town, he could be a neighborizer or he could be a PGO or anything else allowed in normals) while ensuring that we don't lynch a PR.

We'd be giving up potential PR conflicts that could point us to scum, but we would hopefully be leaving PRs alive to do stuff tonight. Plus if somebody softclaims PR today then we get to hold them to that later.

Thoughts?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Ira's posts are so erratic and messy and so out there I don't know if I can sr him for it to be quite honest he has reads and

he seems to be sticking to them

I can't see Ira coming in the game and being like: "I'm gonna fucking tunnel someone into the ground and then retract at the last second yeah go me!"

I mean, except for the time when he townread Map only to turn around one post later and vote Map. And the time when he walled against BYF only to declare BYF town and then vote Map again.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Black is leaning town for me I guess. Just based on the "reaction test" thing when Dwlee did the fake result on Elyse. I don't see a whole lot that makes me think he's town or scum in the rest of his ISO.

Between ira and BYF, I think I feel more like voting BYF. They've both had weirdness in their ISOs, but ira just looks more proactive and BYF looks more reactive.

Dw, why should I vote ira instead? What do you think of BYF?

[Zap Rowsdower]

what, you think we should all just go around and softclaim?

No. What? No. Only if somebody gets to L-1 and then there's intent to hammer. I guess I didn't specify that, I just thought it was obvious.

[Zap Rowsdower]

To be quite frank with you Zap I am pretty dam sure if Map flips scum (and I'd bet so) you're his partner that post you just did you ran through a few possibility but then threw them out the window almost dismissing them entirely I don't see why you even needed to bring that point up in the first place it just feels like you wanted to get people confused

Missed this before.

It's called thinking things through, Maria. I can't come to conclusions unless I process logic first.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Byf is town. Youve already laid out a ton of reasoning in your posts about why you think ira is scum, I shouldnt have to explain this to you. Ira is spouting nonsense bs and getting away with it because he is "being proactive".

K so you've addressed why ira looks like scum. Why does BYF look like town?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Zap is posting a whole bunch of what looks like content, but when you actually read it, is mostly just hypotheticals and useless associations.

ffs guys I'm just posting my thoughts. If you'd rather I only post conclusions and you have no idea how I got there then fine I can do that but don't act like it's scummy to try to work through the game instead of vomiting out the first thing that comes to mind.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You know what?

No. Fuck that. The whole point of this alt was to play looser.

VOTE: BYF

Fucking fight me on it

[Zap Rowsdower]

Hey guys I have solid idea we can lynch the guy who already claimed and is afk half the time wanna guess who it is

We should try to lynch somebody we think is scum, not just lynch somebody because they've already claimed. And lynching lurkers for lurking is in general a shit policy. Scum love that policy because it allows them to target easy lynches without having to provide real reasoning. Just vote whoever you think looks like scum.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Where did I ever fucking say I don't scumread map anymore????????

Where did I ever fucking say that you don't scumread map anymore?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Zap Rowsdower]

You guys. Put down the crack pipes and actually read my posts please.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I want to vote zap for his bad suggestion earlier

I WAS NOT SAYING THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD SOFTCLAIM WITHOUT BEING AT L-1. PUT ON YOUR GLASSES AND READ MY POSTS.

[Zap Rowsdower]

All right no maybe I was wrong. Gonna wait until the vc to vote Ira, but even if he's at L-1 I'll probably be stating intent.

The push on rosske is bad. He clearly softed a pr and he only started pushing this after a couple other players had.

Other notes, blackstar's posts re: Ira on the last page came across as town to me, and I've realized that the way in which rosske claimed makes it very likely he's town.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm just VT

If you are town, know that claiming this early was not a good idea. All this does is give scum more PoE information to help them find PRs later in the game.

I'm getting worried about Elyse actually, so I'm gonna go look into that brb.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah Elyse does look fairly scummy actually. After thinking about it some more, it's entirely plausible that scum -- especially experienced scum like Elyse -- would have the wherewithal to realize that Dwlee was just fishing for reactions and respond the way that she did.

Her approach to the Rosske wagon was suspy too. She was voting Map the whole time that it happened, but kinda cheering on the Rosske wagon in a way that looked like a partner may have already been on the Rosske wagon or otherwise she had some hidden reason for staying off it.

The scumread on me seems like subtle opportunism too. I haven't been widely scumread or widely townread, so I'm a safe place for scum to build a backup scumread. And the reasoning didn't sit well with me. She said one of my posts looked fake, and I know what sentence she was talking about too -- it's the kind of sentence that looks surface-level scummy for sure. It's the kind of thing I would expect scum to pick on. Then later she says I'm posting stuff that looks like work but isn't. The implication being hat I was trying to look busy. In the process she ignored the more obvious explanation -- I'm not feeling very sure of myself and need to work out my reads.

Basically it just feels like Elyse is sneakily/intentionally working in the wrong directions.

I need to step back and look at my options here.

[Zap Rowsdower]

The thing is that I don't really think ira and Elyse would be partners.

And nothing has really happened to make me think ira is town. I actually had a tinfoil hat-type thought that he might be a mafia lie detector and that's why he's been pushing rosske so hard to say that he's a pr. But I feel like those are pretty rare? I've never seen one anyway.

Eh screwballs. We have time. Let's see what happens.

VOTE: Elyse

[Zap Rowsdower]

Or she just had the common sense to realize he was trolling for no particular reason. I still don't believe that DW was actually looking for reactions there. Did he explicitly say that that was a reactions fish?

What the hell else could it have been? He fakeclaimed a guilty result, then voted somebody who voted based on the fake guilty.

Kinda cheering? Examples, please.

This'n, this'n and that'n.

How so? Why aren't they a viable team?

Oh, a fewreasons. Elyse getting so pissed off at ira for saying scum-aligned and town-aligned just does not seem like something one partner would do toward another. Ira's been scumreading Elyse for silly reasons. And then Ira discredited Elyse's scumread on me, an example post for that is here.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Well I do believe we've seen more suspicion of Elyse overall since I voted her. Not entirely sure what to do with that information but maybe it'll become more useful as the game moves along.

I also don't have a lot of faith that Elyse will be the lynch today. I am kinda sorta leaning town on ira simply because I think Elyse is scum and don't think ira is a good candidate for partner.

Let's take a looksee here...

[Zap Rowsdower]

I haven't really seen a post by her that I dislike her reads match up with a lot of mine so that could be slight bias

What do you think about my points on her? See here.

A lot of my reads and Eylse are the same so I want to ask you and a lot of people sring Elyse why don't you scum read me along with her?

I think this was addressed already but it was kinda aimed at me so I'll answer it.

I don't think I would ever scumread somebody just because they have similar reads to a person I'm scumreading. It's just not convincing evidence to me. I think it's more likely in general that scum partners would make a point of

not

sharing all their reads.

Here's an idea. Scum are Ira, Elyse and Maria.

And what do you think of my "Elyse and ira don't seem like partners" post? See here.

Anyway, most of Ira's scumreading of Elyse started

after

the first wagon on them started. That

could

just be WIFOM scumreading their actual partner so if the lynch actually does go through, it looks like "Elyse was right all along".

Confused by this. Hasn't Elyse been townreading Ira? If they were partners, and ira got lynched and flipped scum, how would we get to "elyse was right all along"?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Or you could continue in your futile attempt to lynch me and I will go full steam ahead on you tomorrow if I'm still around whether or not Map is still alive.

Hm. So, first, this suggests that you're going to come after not because you think I'm scum but because I'm scumreading you. Second, "whether or not Map is still alive" suggests to me that you're confident Map is flipping scum. Just like you're so confident that Ira would flip town that you didn't want to say who you would be interested in lynching if we flipped Ira and he were scum.

Yeah?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Welp, see, I'm town. So I'm not that confident. I have theories, but it's D1 and I'm really not all that sure of myself atm. I think you might be scum, but I'm not sure.

Now, this me-being-scared-of-you business. It's clearly a strawman.

Now, this deal business. I have no idea under what circumstances you'd think I would actually accept a deal like that -- from a person I'm scumreading -- and I'm not scum so idrgaf about Map -- especially given that you can't lynch me by yourself. Which means I have to assume that you're being cheeky or something, except now you've said it twice, so.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Huh, two days already? Lost track of it somehow.

Yeah, I know Elyse is most likely not getting lynched today. Unfortunately I don't really believe in either of the other leading wagons.

If I were to choose between the two now it'd probably be for ira, but I don't think I've given Map a serious look-over for a while now so I should probably do that.

[Zap Rowsdower]

i am pretty confident that i can do well.

I just, I mean, really? Would newbscum post this?

There's some stuff that kinda pings for me...posting a readslist in response to being run up seems like a dodge/trying to demonstrate that he's doing work for town, for example. You could argue that putting Ira at L-1 in 777 was opportunistic but meh. I was getting ready to vote ira around that time too iirc.

As for the way Map jumped on the Elyse fake result, I can see that coming from newbtown. It's not like the line of logic was ridiculous or anything, I just think the failure to consider the possibility (probability, really) that Dw didn't have a real result was based on inexperience more than anything.

So I don't see the Mapscum case, no. I can see the scumIra case, it's just that I believe more in Elyse being scum than I do in Ira being scum and the two ideas don't fit well together.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Zap is just gonna hop on Ira at the end of the day and take no responsibility for it.

Singing old Blink-182 in my head now so thanks for that I guess

UNVOTE:

?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Aha, OK wrong band. I was thinking of MxPx.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You gonna drop everything and join a pop punk band or somethin?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Oh hm we're getting a Skold replacement. I don't know whether I should hammer now and let the replacement catch up during the night or wait until we get a replacement and then give them time to catch up before the end of the day.

I guess the second option extends the possibility that we lynch Elyse.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah I'd rather wait. Might be nice for a replacement to have the night to catch up, but it's probably better for town to have them make their entrance in the light of day. Especially if the Skold slot is scum.

[Zap Rowsdower]

For those wondering about the lack of activity, in general I dislike Day 1 because there's nothing concrete to work with; I observe interactions Day 1.

I mean I get that but do you see how this sucks for somebody who's trying to figure out your slot's alignment? Especially given Skold's play?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I don't really understand why some people didn't hammer Ira either don't get me wrong i'm really happy they didn't but a bit of reason why would be nice? (Zap Gerry)

Basically when I considered the possibility of hammering ira my suspicions of Elyse came to a head and I decided to look at her before doing anything with ira. What I found made me both more willing to lynch Elyse and simultaneously more skeptical of ira being scum.

p-edit, @wake: I'm confused by the wording of your response but maybe it doesn't matter. Are you catching up?

[Zap Rowsdower]

f Scum at L1 crumbs being a PR, he's got the whoooole game to come up with a convincing fakeclaim,

Right, and if Rosske was scum and close to a probable hammer, why wouldn't he just claim doc or some other role that could out a town PR?

[Zap Rowsdower]

@Black: You're reading ira's post wrong. I'd let him explain it himself but clearly at this point he just doesn't understand what you're asking.

Ira was saying that scum know who is town, and town don't have a reason to lie. So if a town claims a PR, they must be telling the truth and are actually a PR. Thus, if ira were scum, he would "know" that Rosske was really a PR and not fakeclaiming.

Ofc the logic doesn't address the larger point of why Ira wasn't just content with a softclaim, and Ira's logic also ignores the many, many circumstances under which town fakeclaim PRs. But that's what ira was saying.

[Zap Rowsdower]

VOTE: BYF

Let's try this one.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Huh I don't think I've ever seen the "bump" button before. Weird.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Well you could vote Elyse or BYF even

[Zap Rowsdower]

Crap. I'd rather Lynch Ira than map.

VOTE: ira

[Zap Rowsdower]

fuck

[Zap Rowsdower]

w/e

maaaaAAAaaaAAAaaAAAps

wait

they dont love you like i love you

[Zap Rowsdower]

Iiiiiinteresting.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm 90% sure that Ira is scum. Map wolf and Yoshi are also kind of suspect and I don't like some of Elyse's posts

These were Blackstar's scumreads. Could've played a part in why he died. Alternatively, maybe scum thought they picked up on a crumb from him or something.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm still down to lynch Elyse.

VOTE: Elyse

[Zap Rowsdower]

hi. I'm gonna bring up the elephant in the room. why is Ross alive lol

Could be a lot of things. Scum could have a roleblocker and decided to block him while killing someone else who they either thought was a PR or had good reads. Or they could have some other role that would prevent Ross from taking any action (jailkeeper, for example). Could've been that scum feared that some town investigative would see them if they killed Ross so they targeted somebody else in the hopes that any town investigative would burn a shot.

Or Ross could be scum. But let's hold off on that possibility.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I also think Rosske should probably full claim

I've been mulling this over. I think I agree that Rosske should claim.

We don't know what his PR is, and there are some conceivable circumstances where it would be bad for town for him to claim. But ultimately what I have to think about is the potential for damage in letting him keep it to himself. If he continues to live through night phases, we're going to have to seriously think about the possibility that he's scum. And if he

is

scum, letting him get away with a softclaim could become pretty bad for us. It essentially means he gets to fit his claim to whatever makes sense to town at the time, as opposed to forcing him to stick to a claim he'd have to have now.

[Zap Rowsdower]

OK, well.....one thing I can say is that Rosske's refusal to claim even after people voted him to get him to do it means he is probably not scum. I just do not think scum would act this way in this situation. For one, the scum team would've discussed at night what his claim should be. Or during the day, even, if they have day chat. And on top of that, scum would have plenty of reason to claim now. Town would suspect them otherwise. They could out a town PR and possibly even get them lynched. If there wasn't a town counterclaim, the fakeclaiming scum (Rosske) could either skid by without suspicion or even manipulate town into doing the wrong thing, depending on what he claimed.

So.....guess I take back my insistence that he should claim, then.

[Zap Rowsdower]

It is pretty interesting to think about the reaction to all this if we think about Rosske as town. Elyse called for Rosske to claim and nobody really said anything. Then I agree with Elyse, and suddenly BYF votes Rosske, gerryoat calls for a Rosske claim and ira also votes Rosske.

Makes me wonder if setting up Rosske as a possibly mislynch might've been part of the reason scum killed Blackstar instead...

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'll tell you this Zap, if Rosske flips scum then you're next.

*heart explodes from exertion*

Uhhhhhh, I don't think so.

Why? Do you see some reason for scum not to just fakeclaim right now? Or even for scum not to fakeclaim in the first place?

This sounds a lot like a scum partner trying to defend Rosske.

So if I'm his partner, I pushed for Rosske to claim only to retract when he refused because...?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I don't see how him not claiming makes him town. Why would we even ask for a claim then?

K, I feel like you're confusing us asking him for a claim with his alignment. Which is a weird thing to confuse, but w/e.

I explained it in my last two posts: Scum would probably want to fakeclaim in this situation.

Also, you did not PUSH for a claim, rather just say "I agree."

I told him he should claim. That's pushing. A "push" doesn't have to be a vote.

You retract when he refuses because obviously your scum partner is not ready to claim, and then try to defend him so he doesn't have to.

Scum are more coordinated than you're implying right now. A scum player would know whether their partner was ready to claim or not because they would have talked about it at night. Like that's just common sense.

[Zap Rowsdower]

...who said scum had daychat?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm here, briefly.

Is there anything pertinent I should know?

I think this is pretty pertinent:

It is pretty interesting to think about the reaction to all this if we think about Rosske as town. Elyse called for Rosske to claim and nobody really said anything. Then I agree with Elyse, and suddenly BYF votes Rosske, gerryoat calls for a Rosske claim and ira also votes Rosske.

Makes me wonder if setting up Rosske as a possibly mislynch might've been part of the reason scum killed Blackstar instead...

[Zap Rowsdower]

you said scum are more coordinated so I assume you meant day chat because a partner would only know when their scum partner is ready to claim if they talked on it right unless at night it was a giant code complex thing that I'd never understand...The fact daychat can even be thing in this makes me want a change a ton of my reads

I have no idea why you'd assume all that.

Why would scum plot out a specific time to fakeclaim? Like, what advantage would there be to claiming at one point during the day instead of any other? Scum can't tell the future any more than town can.

Consequently, why on Earth would they not just decide at night what Rosske's fakeclaim should be if Rosske were scum?

You're making a lot of assumptions about how scum should act and react. Your defense is all about how you think the mafia should be playing, when there is no right way to play.

1. It's not a "defense." I'm putting forward a theory that Rosske is probably town.
2. There is no "right way to play." That is true. But we can look at motivations as a means of explaining possibilities, and then judge those motivations on their likelihood. I see no motivation for scum to act the way Rosske is acting.

Let me ask you directly since you're doing everything you can not to address the central point:

Why would scum, in Rosske's position -- with multiple people asking for him to claim, with scum having killed Blackstar in a move that was obviously going to make Rosske look bad -- why, with all that happening, would scumRosske not just fakeclaim right now?

Simply telling someone to claim is not pushing. I think there needs to be more effort put into it to call it a push, tell me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

This is literally just a pointless argument over semantics now.

Re: #1172, I presume you're trying to say I contradicted myself so let me walk you through this.

The first post is saying that Rosske should claim because we can't be sure he's town.

The second post is saying Rosske is probably town, so no need to force him to claim anymore.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Try looking at the posts of just Zap and Rosske. I gotta go right now, but I noticed they both started with votes on me, and ended with votes on me.

You're right. Me and Rosske are scum partners and we came into the day deciding you were by far the biggest threat and so we decided we just needed to ice you ASAP.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Eh gerryoat doesn't really seem like scum to me. The posting style just speaks of newbtown on a gut level. Kinda helps to explain his approach to Rosske D2 also.

[Zap Rowsdower]

@mod: You left dwlee off the votecount, and still have Wake down as Skold.

[Zap Rowsdower]

So you think scum, with Rosske on their team, would go into the night and not even address Rosske's softclaim?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Hokay. I am just gonna stop arguing with BYF about why he thinks I'm scum. It's getting pretty silly and I already know that BYF will turn this game into an unenjoyable mess of wall posts before doing anything productive -- already saw it happen with ira. So, moving on...

So you think scum, with Rosske on their team, would go into the night and not even address Rosske's softclaim?

Of course, but it could be as simple as "Don't full claim" or they're still talking about it in day chat.

I fail to see how this is a realistic view of scum strategy. You actually think scum would tell their partner to just hold out? Just keep refusing to claim even though people are obviously going to be suspicious of him after they kill Blackstar? In order to believe this you basically have to think scum are a bunch of idiots.

The idea that they just never settled on a decision before going into the day phase is also pretty redonk. I just do not think I've ever seen scum approach something like that so lackadaisically. Doesn't make sense to me. As scum you get focused on the pressure on you and your partner, you get scared, you prepare.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Welp, that takes care of me having to decide whether it's worth it to go after BYF instead of Elyse.

[Zap Rowsdower]

In fact that quote is exactly what I would expect Rosske's scum partner to do. Pretend to be for him claiming and then back off so he doesn't have to.

Miss, you dropped your hat.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm flipping town and then lynch the fuck out of Ira, Elyse, Gerry and DW. That should be all the scum.

vote:Nero

Are you willing to self vote when I flip town?

This is dumb.

I'm not a noob. Maybe to forum mafia, but I've played mafia on other sites. So, while i appreciate the townread, that's a bad reason to townread someone because they could take advantage of that. Is there a list of townreads you have right now?

Well, that's the thing. I've never seen any site that plays mafia like this one. And you're saying things that don't make a lot of sense if you've played on this site for a while. Things like:

he also voted my fos so he could really could be town.

rereading, I like Elyse's posts. I'm not really sure what's scummy about her??

See here. To add today's action to that list, Elyse has:

-Voted ira as a policy lynch despite her long-standing townread on him (scummy opportunism)
-Parked her vote on me while saying she was going to stay in the background (trying to avoid the pressure she knew would be coming after yesterday's Map townflip/myself and other people voting her)
-Fed off BYF's paranoia that not only is Rosske scum, but that I'm his partner (scummy opportunism)

[Zap Rowsdower]

anyone still pushing for me to full claim is either scum or an idiot.

^^^

Listen.

[Zap Rowsdower]

In fact that quote is exactly what I would expect Rosske's scum partner to do. Pretend to be for him claiming and then back off so he doesn't have to.

Miss, you dropped your hat.

So are you going to actually explain why I'm wrong orrrr?

You're wrong because I'm town. But that's not exactly a helpful argument to make for a third-party townie who's looking at this, is it?

So instead I pointed out that the argument you're using is a stretch. It relies on people thinking that:

a) Rosske, as scum, would softclaim instead of fullclaiming to begin with (which is hard to believe for scum would have a thing or two to gain from full fakeclaiming)
b) Rosske, as scum, would continue to refuse to claim heading into today despite knowing that town would be suspicious of him and push for him to claim
c) The rest of the scumteam, myself included, would decide to pull off some half-baked scheme where I pretend to want him to claim and then back off later hoping that town will follow me

instead of just doing the thing that is best for scum and makes the most sense, which is Rosske fakeclaiming something.

Whereas the explanation for Rosske being town is pretty goddamn believable by comparison:

a) He has a PR that doesn't make sense for him to fullclaim.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Is there a list of townreads you have right now?

Oh forgot about this.

Rosske, Maria and you. You're the shakiest of those townreads. I also have a gut townread on Nero but it's even shakier. And I'm treating ira as town simply because Elyse is my top scumread and it doesn't make sense in my head for him to be partners with Elyse.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Zap, could you expand on your Elyse vote please?

You mean more than I just did in 1252?

[Zap Rowsdower]

She policy-voted ira in spite of Townreading him?

Well apparently now she's saying she's scumreading him. But she ended D1 with a townread on ira so strong that she didn't leave any room for the possibility that he could be scum (this post). And then she said she wasn't convinced that ira was scum coming into today (this post).

If you go into her ISO and ctrl + f "ira" you'll see she was probably the biggest defender of ira yesterday, saying over and over again that he was town even as he was run up. And I already linked to her reasons for voting ira, which pretty much boil down to "policy."

I don't see how any of this is far-fetched. These all seem like perfectly reasonable and highly probable actions.

If you really believe that, there's no reasoning with you.

Zap is contradicting himself completely. Did you forget when you said that letting

scum

live with a softclaim allows them to tailor their claim as the game progresses so it makes sense.

Emphasis is mine.

"Scum." Letting "scum" live with a softclaim would be a mistake. But it seems ridiculous right now for me to think of what would have to be true in order for Rosske to be scum. He is town, I am all but sure of it. Letting town live with a softclaim is not a mistake, not when Rosske is clearly telling us that it'd be a bad idea for him to claim.

And by saying that I'm contradicting myself, you are ignoring the progression of logic that I have clearly and repeatedly walked people through today that

led to me changing my mind.

Logic that you yourself have acknowledged by arguing against it. Changing your mind =/= contradiction, but you're acting like it is so you can justify acting like I'm scum.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Have to agree with Dw on that one; it's tough to unpack alignment-indicative motivation behind a deadline lynch because it's a deadline lynch. The default position everyone takes is "it's better to lynch a player I don't find scummy than to let a no-lynch happen." And Dw clearly voted Map because of deadline.

But that doesn't make Maria scum, Dw. And I don't see any particular reason for you to scumread her for her faulty logic ahead of the faulty logic behind the reads of Ira, BYF or Elyse.

[Zap Rowsdower]

He really wanted Ross to claim, which is weird that he died and Rosske didn't die. Why would maf kill someone that was pushing on a "PR" claim to claim.

Again, if Rosske was scum then why wouldn't the scumteam just accommodate that request and come up with a fakeclaim during the night?

And there is motivation for the Black kill if Ross is town, too. My guess would be that scum have a JK or Roleblocker and decided they would maximize the efficiency of their night choices by blocking a known PR (even if they didn't know what PR it was) while killing a player who had good reads. Or it could've been they suspected Blackstar was an unclaimed PR for some reason.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Or it could have been that they saw a chance to get Rosske mislynched by leaving him alive and killing someone else. That could have been part of the reason for killing Blackstar, a player who'd been calling for Rosske to claim. But my guess is that a Rosske mislynch would be secondary motivation behind whatever other reason they had for killing Black/not killing Ross.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah he posted this when you said he flip-flopped on ira

Eh there's two hours to deadline so

Intent

[Zap Rowsdower]

And I'm treating ira as town simply because Elyse is my top scumread and it doesn't make sense in my head for him to be partners with Elyse.

could you explain this?

Can, have and will again. On why I scumread Elyse:

See here. To add today's action to that list, Elyse has:

-Voted ira as a policy lynch despite her long-standing townread on him (scummy opportunism)
-Parked her vote on me while saying she was going to stay in the background (trying to avoid the pressure she knew would be coming after yesterday's Map townflip/myself and other people voting her)
-Fed off BYF's paranoia that not only is Rosske scum, but that I'm his partner (scummy opportunism)

On why I don't think Elyse and Ira are partners:

Oh, a fewreasons. Elyse getting so pissed off at ira for saying scum-aligned and town-aligned just does not seem like something one partner would do toward another. Ira's been scumreading Elyse for silly reasons. And then Ira discredited Elyse's scumread on me, an example post for that is here.

[Zap Rowsdower]

You think they left a fucking PR to be MISLYNCHED?

I've literally been on a scum team before that left a town PR alive because we thought they could be mislynched. But nice try.

Also would like to point out that your focus on this -- the least important part of my argument, and one that I said in that post was probably not the primary reason for Blackstar being killed, if it was a reason at all -- makes it seem like you combed through my posts looking for something to attack.

Wake is town.

Uh...pretty sure that slot has been the least active in the entire game. What's your reasoning here and why are you so confident on it?

Also,

@Mod: Will be V/LA from midday Friday through Sunday afternoon, Pacific time (GMT-8 usually, but I don't know how DST fucks with that...)

[Zap Rowsdower]

Here's an idea: bring Ira to L-1, let us be clear and unequivocal in our declaration that IRA WILL BE LYNCHED AND WE WILL NOT ACCEPT A SCAPEGOAT, and force Rosske's hand.

Confused about how this would work.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'll have to rewrite the scene in order for it to make sense, sorry. Here we go:

Scum1: Should we NK Rosske?
Scum2: We could. But we don't know what he is. He could be a bomb for all we know.
Scum3: Idrctbqh I'm just gonna try to get Zap lynched.
Scum2: OK well we have a {roleblocker/JK/JOAT}, so how's about we just neutralize whatever power he has for a night and kill somebody else?
Scum1: K that works. That'll make Rosske look bad and we could push that angle. That could force him to claim.
Scum3: Can we kill Blackstar? I don't like that guy, he's onto us.
Scum2: Sure. And re: Rosske, if he claims something unbelievable then we could always push a mislynch on him too.
Scum3: I AM ELYSE.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Oh you wanted me to go all the way to a Rosske claim. I won't write it like a script but here are some possible PRs that town might not believe:

-Miller
-BP
-Backup (can exist without actually backing something up)

And idk there's probably more

[Zap Rowsdower]

Rosske: MariaR, Nero Cain, Dwlee, Zap Rowsdower, BlackStar, gerryoat

Mapwolf: Elyse, Dwlee, Nero Cain, Zap Rowsdower, BigYoshiFan, Skold

hrmmmm...

I mean I knew DW was scum already but maybe this does poiint to Zap as scum.

Welp, can't argue with facts. I was on those wagons.

But I do think you're ignoring some important context, which is that I got off the Map wagon and then fought it for the rest of the day (resisted, more like? idk, I don't remember trying to get people off the wagon or anything but my point is I didn't join it and I said a few times that I thought Map was probably town)

And then with Rosske, I hopped off after the softclaim, pointed out later that Rosske is probably town and have spent like most of today trying to get people to get off his bidniss. Which, I realize this isn't all that useful until we get a townflip from Rosske, but I'm pretty frickin confident that Rosske is town.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Last time to post before going on V/LA. Don't have a lot to say atm. Please enjoy Michigan J. Frog while I'm gone and as always, vote Elyse.

[Zap Rowsdower]

im here and catching up

[Zap Rowsdower]

The wagon is on me is fueled by scum. Probably not overly strategic scum because if they actually succeed in lynching me, they will be very exposed. Not a good move.

Yeah but gullible townies are playing along so scum can hide.

I don't want to lynch you

, I just want you to claim and then we see where to go from there.

You are proving yourself as scum-aligned by refusing to claim...

These are contradictory thoughts, and you should know that. If he is "proving himself" as scum, you should want to lynch him. But instead you're trying to manipulate him into claiming by warning him that he is in the process of making himself look like scum (hence the gerund).

Do you honestly believe I ought to die, even though I'm not even in your top three scumreads list, in a situation with three scum left and

only two MLs left before LyLo

?

This kinda pings my scumdar. I think about this stuff a lot more when I'm scum than when I'm town.

THIS IS A GUILTY

...

fuck this. Are you serious right now or are you giving a fake guilty because I swear to fucking god if you're town and you're giving a fake guilty just to get somebody lynched because you think they're scum

like do we need to go back to the "never fake a guilty as town" thread again

if you're faking a guilty you fucking retract right fucking now.

And if you're sticking to this, better start explaining why you didn't give a result at the beginning of the day.

[Zap Rowsdower]

anyone have a guilty

what

[Zap Rowsdower]

I have a guilty on Ira.

YESSS
VOTE: ira

he's just as likely as any other slot to be an investigative role

????

gdi nero
UNVOTE:

wtf dw

[Zap Rowsdower]

Why would I give it at the beginning of the day?
That is illogical
No one does anything that day and I get nked

WE WOULD LYNCH IRA THATS WHY

[Zap Rowsdower]

why are you so fucking anxious for a lynch right now maria we have a motherfucker claiming a guilty and we have like two days left hold your goddamn horses

[Zap Rowsdower]

and while you're busy addressing the fact that you went along with nero's joke guilty on ira at the beginning of the day, DW, why don't you go ahead and link me to a couple games where you've played as an investigative role

or do you have something to share with the class

[Zap Rowsdower]

Hey look here's DW as a role cop outing his result in his second post after D2 opened

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7954928

DW DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH THE CLASS

[Zap Rowsdower]

why would you unvote your guilty at all, even if you didn't want to out it.

^^^

[Zap Rowsdower]

That's your explanation for hiding a result at the beginning of the day and insisting that it would've been dumb to give your result right away

even though I just linked to a game where you gave your result in your second post after the day opened when you were a role cop

?

AND it's your explanation for switching your vote to Maria, who you don't have a guilty on?

AND it's your explanation for following along with Nero's joke guilty on ira?

All that so you could obscure your role, knowing all the while that town was not on track to lynch Ira?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I was scum the game the game I outted it you turd

K it was six factions so hard to tell you were scum.

Now explain why you went along with Nero's joke result and why you switched your vote to Maria, who you don't have a result on.

But I thought we would be on track to lynch ira but people were dumb

I have no idea why you would think we were on track to lynch ira. Plus I'm going to continue vetting the shit out of this claim and give people time to counterclaim before I even consider believing you. So fucking retract if you don't actually have a result.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Dwe, I'll vote IRA today. But if he doesnt flip mafia I'm not unvoting you tomorrow.

Here's the problem. As CR pointed out, lynching two townies in a row would put us in LyLo. So if Dw is town faking a result and if Ira is town, then just going along with this plan would be so fucking shitty for town.

I don't think Dw is scum at this point. This is pretty fuckin hard to see coming from scum. But town do fake guilties, they've done it before and it's fucking awful.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Now explain why you went along with Nero's joke result and why you switched your vote to Maria, who you don't have a result on.

[Zap Rowsdower]

OK found this, from a thread titled "Is it ever right to lie as a townie?"

What about when rc fake claimed a guilty and made the scum team forfeit?

What about when rc fake claimed a guilty and made the scum team forfeit?

Never fakeclaim guilites.

I never would. But then there is RC..

I was actually going to pull this game to show Dw how disastrous it can be for town when you fake a guilty. Since he knows about it, it would be pretty fucking shitty for him to fake a guilty now.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Radiant Cowbells. I think he's calmed down now (somewhat) but he had a game where he was town (not investigative) and he was so convinced that another player was scum that he faked a guilty on them. So town lynches the player and guess what they're town. So then they lynch RC and guess what he's town too. RC got blackballed from a bunch of games and there was this whole "never fake a guilty as town" thread. So yeah.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Dw could be telling the truth, seeing that thread. And again, I don't see this coming from scum. So I can get behind an ira lynch but I still want to wait for other people.

[Zap Rowsdower]

jfc

well good thing you didn't out an investigative in the process dw

[Zap Rowsdower]

If you still think I'm scum-aligned, why did you reveal that it was fake now?

maybe it has something to do with the fact that faking a guilty as town is a terrible idea

[Zap Rowsdower]

Welp, we're at less than two days until deadline now. Elyse is still my strongest scumread but CR is not a bad lynch. They're right around null in my book, with one or two little things that have pinged through these two day phases.

Plus the wagon seems mostly good, with the notable exception of Elyse. Here's hoping she's bussing or I'm just straight-up wrong about her :/

VOTE: CR

[Zap Rowsdower]

wait i didn't just hammer did i

[Zap Rowsdower]

oh shit I think I hammered

I was looking at an old votecount

whoopsie daisies

[Zap Rowsdower]

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
is Mafia-aligned
knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops
If you want a Traitor that cannot be killed by its team, make it a Bulletproof Traitor. Roles like this should return full names (e.g. Bulletproof Traitor) to a Role Cop investigating them.
As a Traitor is Mafia-aligned, it counts towards the Mafia's win condition. For example, in the situation of 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 2 Townies, the game ends in a Mafia win.

Link to the page here.

So we can use CR's reads, but looking for how scum would've treated CR would not be helpful because they wouldn't have known if CR was on their team.

[Zap Rowsdower]

And since there was only one NK I think it's safe to assume Rosske was town. Now what sucks is wondering if he used any of his investigative shots N1 and what result he got.

[Zap Rowsdower]

BigYoshiFan wants to lynch the towniest player in the game.

VOTE: BigYoshiFan

oops! I omgused!

Also, I'm not full claiming. I'm just consistently special

He did come into D2 with a vote on BYF, but it's not clear that that was a result...

[Zap Rowsdower]

I guess I feel like he should've made a bigger deal out of it if he got some sort of result on BYF.

If anybody was neighborized by Rosske you should say so.

[Zap Rowsdower]

@Wake: It's not a theme game, it's a mini normal. And the wiki has the guidelines for what the traitor has to be in a normal.

[Zap Rowsdower]

OK, again, gerry, scum wouldn't have known that CR was scum. That's how a traitor works. I posted an excerpt from the wiki article on the last page.

The traitor is on the scum team and knows who the other scum are. The other scum know there's a traitor but don't know who it is.

P-edit: It's called a jack of all trades, or JOAT. You can do one action per night.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Wait was that just a townslip from Gerry? He didn't understand how traitor worked...

[Zap Rowsdower]

That would pretty much defeat the purpose of the traitor. The whole point is that the main scumteam don't know who the traitor is and they can't communicate with each other. It forces the scum team to genuinely scumhunt for their partner and consequently it obscures town's ability to read into the motivation behind scum posts even after a scum player flips.

P-edit: You clearly don't understand how a traitor works because you keep assuming that they'd have some way of connecting with the main scum group.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Btw, Dw, here is a full list of everybody CR voted for:

1. Iraonavp

[Zap Rowsdower]

It would allow the main scum faction to have day chat. Let's say there are three scum. Here's how it would work:

-Scum A and B are in their own thread and have a chat that's open to them night and day. They know who each other are and what their roles are. They also know that they have a traitor (maybe they even know that it's a traitor encryptor), but they don't know who it is.
-Scum C, a traitor encryptor is excluded from the other scum chat. He knows who they are, but can't communicate with them outside the main game thread where he has to act like he doesn't know who they are. Once he dies, Scum A and B can no longer speak to each other during the day. They can continue to talk to each other at night.

[Zap Rowsdower]

CR was pretty set on voting Ira. Does anyone remember if CR started the BW on Ira, or just kinda vote Ira when everyone else seemed to fos him.

There were other votes on ira both times CR voted him (D1 and D2). But CR literally never moved his vote.

The fact Gerry and Zap don't have 3 votes on them each rn is making me sick.

I really think Gerry is showing he's town right now by how he doesn't understand how the traitor role works.

[Zap Rowsdower]

No I'm not calling you scum. But yes that's what I was getting at.

Fail.
That was a test to see if you'd find the logical inconsistency in the grounds of my challenge to FOS me or not. If I as Map's partner knew that logic and its implications, I would not have shared it in the first place for this very reason. You didn't go to level two analysis.

This was weird. CR later said that he wasn't using this to figure out Elyse's alignment. Rather, he was trying to see if she could be like a town scumhunting leader or something?

He criticized Elyse throughout his time in the game but never scumread her. Again, just kept his vote on ira without moving it.

VOTE: Elyse

There was also a post where he was kinda all over the place about Yoshi. I wouldn't mind a Yoshi lynch.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I also think that C might have tried to tip them off as to who they were.

I am actually wondering if the post I just quoted might have been exactly that. That, and CR's first post toward Elyse where he was criticizing her for dismissing his ira read. It just read very differently from the way CR talked to most other players.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Right, forgot I can't really talk to Maria

[Zap Rowsdower]

Who's mafia with Elyse?

Haven't given it a ton of thought honestly because as much as I think Elyse is scum, I don't have proof yet.

One person I have thought of is BYF. I find BYF scummy, and there's room for him to be Elyse's partner, but that would have to include a fair bit of overt coordination between the two and that's something I tend not to believe in. If we got a scumflip out of one I'd want to comb through the interactions between the two slots and then deciding.

I guess Wake could also be scum? That's literally just based on PoE though. I have very few thoughts about the slot because it's been so inactive. And I have not considered at all whether the slot being scum would make sense with Elyse being scum specifically.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah because I'm fucking town. So I don't have proof that I'm right until somebody dies. That's how mafia works.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Are you even listening to yourself or me? The one person you have scumread the most for the past 3 days

You have no proof on

I don't understand what you're not getting.

Do we have different definitions of what proof is?

Are we not both speaking the same kind of English, perhaps? Are you like Australian or something and our dialects slightly differ so we can't understand very specific sentences in the same way?

OK, let me walk through this very, very slowly.

"Proof" means evidence that something is true. Undeniable evidence, even. Evidence so convincing that you can't walk away with any other conclusion.

An example: A dude puts down a closed box in front of me and asks me to guess whether the cat inside is alive or dead. I listen carefully and I hear meowing and scratching coming from inside the box. So I say "I think it's alive,

but I don't have any proof.

"

In this case, I don't have any proof because my evidence is lacking. There are other things that could be causing the scratching and meowing noises inside the box. A recording of a cat could be playing, for example. Or perhaps there's some other creature inside the box making noises that sound like a cat.

So this dude opens up the box, and sure enough, there is a cat walking around inside. I put my fingers on its skin next to its heart and I feel it beating. The cat bites me.

"Now I know the cat is alive," I say, "

Because I have proof.

"

What has changed? Instead of simply hearing something that may or may not have been a cat, I have seen a cat with my own eyes. I have judged the fact of its mortality by feeling its heart beating, by observing it moving of its own free will and by stimulating the creature so as to produce a response -- ie, I put my hand on it and the cat bit me.

So now, let's translate this example to the question of whether Elyse is town or scum. I have a lot of evidence for why I

think

she is scum, and I have laid it out multiple times now. But it's not proof.

Why is it not proof? Because my evidence is lacking. It could be that I'm simply misinterpreting the actions of Elyse and other players in this game. I have no way of knowing because, by virtue of my alignment (town), I only know for sure at the beginning of the game that one player is town -- myself.

So what would I count as proof? The mod telling me a player's alignment. That happens when a player flips. So now we have proof that CR was scum and Blackstar, Map and Rosske were all town.

But we don't have proof that Elyse is scum because we have no word from the mod yet.

Fuck's sake.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Okay well that seems like a weak reason to know you can't get her lynched

Never said I couldn't get her lynched.

because no one in this game has any proof (besides invest roles)

Also scum have proof. Or damn near close to it anyway.

Give me a CASE on Elyse smartass

I should start a running tally of how many times people ask me for my case on Elyse and how long it takes for somebody else to ask me for my case after I provide it.

Spoiler: Here

Yeah Elyse does look fairly scummy actually. After thinking about it some more, it's entirely plausible that scum -- especially experienced scum like Elyse -- would have the wherewithal to realize that Dwlee was just fishing for reactions and respond the way that she did.

Her approach to the Rosske wagon was suspy too. She was voting Map the whole time that it happened, but kinda cheering on the Rosske wagon in a way that looked like a partner may have already been on the Rosske wagon or otherwise she had some hidden reason for staying off it.

The scumread on me seems like subtle opportunism too. I haven't been widely scumread or widely townread, so I'm a safe place for scum to build a backup scumread. And the reasoning didn't sit well with me. She said one of my posts looked fake, and I know what sentence she was talking about too -- it's the kind of sentence that looks surface-level scummy for sure. It's the kind of thing I would expect scum to pick on. Then later she says I'm posting stuff that looks like work but isn't. The implication being hat I was trying to look busy. In the process she ignored the more obvious explanation -- I'm not feeling very sure of myself and need to work out my reads.

Basically it just feels like Elyse is sneakily/intentionally working in the wrong directions.

Kinda cheering? Examples, please.

This'n, this'n and that'n.

To add today's action to that list, Elyse has:

-Voted ira as a policy lynch despite her long-standing townread on him (scummy opportunism)
-Parked her vote on me while saying she was going to stay in the background (trying to avoid the pressure she knew would be coming after yesterday's Map townflip/myself and other people voting her)
-Fed off BYF's paranoia that not only is Rosske scum, but that I'm his partner (scummy opportunism)

[Zap Rowsdower]

Dw, CR only voted for one person in this game and it was ira.

He wasn't bulletproof, and scum targeting him would have meant he would die. That's the normal guidelines for the role.

In that context, why do you think scumCR would vote a partner and never move his vote or push for lynching anybody else?

[Zap Rowsdower]

It'd just be such bad scum play. It would mean CR was actively working against his scumteam instead of with them, and simultaneously making no effort to clue them in that he was the traitor. And CR seemed pretty thoughtful, I just don't know he'd be that bad as a traitor.

Plus, bussing for the entire game? I've seen bussing when a wagon builds on a partner and designed bussing to distance early in the game (usually with some kind of turnaround later and then they townread each other or move each other to null), but I don't know that I've seen one scum partner bus another by only ever voting for them and never moving elsewhere.

All while simultaneously defending potential mislynches like Map and Rosske. And me.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm trying to figure out right now whether Elyse is genuinely acting like town or if she's executing some strategy to make me/others think she's town

P-edit: And that's one thing that doesn't seem very town to me. I don't understand the Dw wagon, he looks like town to me and further he looks like a decent mislynch candidate for scum to chase.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I mean, Nero said something about Dw gambiting a lot as scum. If there's actual evidence of that I'd have to reconsider my read on him.

But I mean, scumDw doing that gambit at the beginning of the game? And then faking another guilty on ira yesterday, apparently with the actual intention of getting ira lynched? Why? What's the scum motive here?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Right now it's {Elyse, BYF, Nero, Skold}

In order it'd probably be {Elyse, BYF, Skold, Nero}

[Zap Rowsdower]

If it's false meta then there shouldn't be any evidence of it for Nero or myself to dig up.

Maybe I'll get around to that at some point, it's just you've played so many games...

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yes I mean Wake. I blame the mod for calling Wake Skold in VCs.

And both he and Nero are straight-up PoE reads. I've been better with my townreads this game than my scumreads so I feel like PoE will work better for me. Wake is a better candidate for scum than Nero is because the slot has done practically nothing, whereas Nero has given me gut townfeels from time to time. But I had some gut townfeels from CR for a while too, so yeah.

But I mean, if I'm right about my top two scum then we almost certainly don't have to worry about Nero or Wake anyway.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I don't understand why people think BYF is town. Is that still based on his walling with ira from way back when? That was just walling. Scum do it, town do it.

BYF's done so much of the stuff I'd expect scum to do this game. He's hopped onto easy opportunities for lynches, many of which have wound up being on town. He continually pushed for Rosske to claim and ignored all the warning signs that it was a bad idea.

And Elyse, where are you on ira?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Eh I'm fine dropping Elyse for a while. Let's go this direction instead.

VOTE: BYF

[Zap Rowsdower]

I don't know that I've stated the case on BYF all that coherently so I'll try to do that as soon as I can kick this massive hangover

[Zap Rowsdower]

Ira's not happening, Dw.

[Zap Rowsdower]

All righty, so my reasons for why BYF should be our lynch. This post is the place I am putting them.

1. Comparing Realities -> BYF

I don't want to discount the possibility that this whole thing between BYF and ira was scum theater. The "fellow townie" thing is some wonky wording for sure, but in my head if I'm treating BYF as scum then it makes sense both in the context of ira being town and ira being a partner.

It makes even more sense if BYF is town and was just saying some adorably naïve and innocent thing.

...

And then let's flip Map over to being town and BYF and ira are partners. That means that not only did BYF and ira wall with each other while distracting from the Map wagon, risking tearing apart a mislynch while putting scum in jeopardy, but they then coordinated with each other to vote a mislynch at the same time, and even put it at L-1. That also seems unlikely for scum to do.

More likely than the above scenario IMO.

Proactive implies activity, not alignment. You can be proactive and also Mafia. In fact, Mafia who aren't proactive don't live past D2. If proactiveness is town, it must actually help town. You demonstrate how Ira's proactiveness has helped town so far, and I will gladly eat my underwear.

As for BYF, I think his actions will become more apparent on D2, so I'm holding off on spending my time on him until later.

The underlined sentences are the ones I want to highlight here because I feel like they present three different views of BYF (

Note: The first two sentences are from CR; he wrote them directly into my quote

. The first one implies that CR thinks BYF is town, the second seems like he's trying to maintain suspicion of BYF, the third implies that BYF is null. It all just seems like the kind of stiff-arming I expect from scum partners. If you don't want to outright bus them (which could be dangerous to do if you're a traitor), you just stay noncommittal on them and put off having to say anything substantial about them.

2. Night kills

Blackstar died N1 and nobody really seems to know why. One possible reason is that Blackstar had good reads. One of his scumspicions was BYF (see here).

The Rosske NK might also point to BYF. Scum left Rosske alive N1, and on D2 Rosske came in with a vote on BYF (see here). Regardless of whether Rosske actually

did

get a result on BYF, it's possible that scumBYF/his partner might have seen this and been worried that Rosske got a result. So then they off Rosske the next night. Of course, that has to be tempered against the most obvious reason for scum to kill Rosske, which is that he was a claimed PR.

3. The fight to get Rosske to claim

I find it hard to believe that scum wouldn't have hopped onto the bandwagon asking Rosske to claim. Here's a list of the people who were doing that even after Rosske refused and started telling people it would be a bad idea for him to claim: Gerry, ira, BYF, Elyse, Maria (sort of)

And BYF's reasoning was awful once I pressed on him to provide it. He kept arguing that the most likely things to have happened were the weirdest situations, the ones hardest to believe: That scum totally ignored the fact that they would need to address scumRosske's claim during the night, for example, or that scumRosske "wasn't ready" to claim yet (implying that after fakesoftclaiming D1, he had given zero thought to how he would have to eventually back up his claim).

4. Two possible slips

First possible slip:

Why do you even care? You are suspicious because I don't like your posts.

I'm sorry if I just want to see why

a fellow townie

has suspicion on me.

Why it might be a slip: BYF is implying he knows ira is town.

Second possible slip (just noticed this one):

WAIT WAIT WAIT

Scum have fucking day chat??? I thought it was only nightchat unless stated otherwise

I believe they can have day chat if they have an encryptor.

Why it might be a slip: Guess what CR flipped after BYF made this post? Traitor encryptor.

To explain to people still learning about either role, the scumteam would not have known that CR was their traitor. But they would have known that one player in the game was a traitor who was part of their team and couldn't talk to them.

It's also likely that the main scum team would have known that their traitor was an encryptor.

This is because most mods, when giving scum daychat, will tell the scumteam

why

they have daychat. It's a means of avoiding confusion about under what circumstances scum are able to talk to each other. For example, if an encryptor is the reason scum have daychat then it's only fair to let scum know that they might lose their daychat at some point during the game (scum lose daychat when their encryptor dies). As a mod, you don't necessarily have to tell scum that they have an encryptor (you can, but you don't have to), but you'll probably still say something to the scumteam like "You have the ability to talk in this thread during the day phase

for now.

" It's not hard for the scumteam to figure out why the mod tacked on the qualifier "for now."

Hence, this post looks like BYF might have slipped his knowledge that scum had daychat. As bonus evidence, here's BYF talking about scum having daychat as a means of justifying his push for Rosske to claim:

So you think scum, with Rosske on their team, would go into the night and not even address Rosske's softclaim?

Of course, but it could be as simple as "Don't full claim" or they're still talking about it in day chat.

5. Voting record

It's bad, guys. Here are all the votes BYF has made, color-coded:

Elyse (RVS),

MapWolf

,

Rosske

,

MapWolf

,

Rosske

,

CR

,

Zap

Green is on flipped town players and myself, orange is flipped scum who BYF couldn't have known was scum regardless of alignment (CR).

6. Miscellany

Now, Zap, I think it's a scummy move to bring up those who haven't spoken upon the topic yet.

All I posted was a list of people who hadn't been around to comment on the Dw fake result. It was simply a way for me to mark down information that might have been useful later (it hasn't been, but it's hard to know in the moment that it won't be). I wasn't calling anybody on the list scum. BYF was on that list, and he reacted defensively and OMGUSingly. Seems like scum overreacting to perceived pressure.

Blackstar, why'd you jump on my wagon? You like jumping on wagons, eh?

I really do not like his reaction to BlackStar's vote. He decides to only ask this to BlackStar even though there were some other jumpers? Also it might be worth mentioning how he tried to get attention on me after Map Wolf was at L-1, not because I'm salty about it but I can see scummates doing that. Not gonna hammer, but I can if I wanted to.

This was when Rosske was at L-1. BYF draws attention to the fact that he's not hammering, which is a real look-at-me-I'm-so-towny move.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Ira's not happening, Dw.

why

you don't have the votes.

[Zap Rowsdower]

ok please discuss my BYF wall while I go check out nero

[Zap Rowsdower]

You really want to make me look bad don't you, putting map and Rosske twice so it looks deceptively like I want all town dead.

Pffft.

I did that because you literally voted for Map, then Ross, then Map, then Ross again. Like, it's the truth.

What even is this argument.

Rosske and Mapwolf weren't even lynched

Oh shit, Mapwolf wasn't lynched? Somebody should tell the mod:

Map Wolf: MariaR, BigYoshiFan, Elyse, BlackStar, iraonavp, Dwlee, Nero Cain, [L-0]

I think that if I was mafia I wouldn't NK him and try to keep suspicion on him the next day.

Also, we can't guarantee you're town, also making this deceptive.

You're calling me deceptive for telling people that I'm town. Think about that.

I'm down for the lynch of either Gerryoat or Zap, and it's not because they want me dead (well kinda, obviously), but because they are both focusing on me and only me, making no reads on anyone else or considering the scumread of another.

Did you, uh, miss the part where I've mostly been voting for Elyse the entire game?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I pretty much finished Nero's ISO and all I got out of it was "meh, he could be scum." I think there might have been some specific things but I'm not looking at my notes right now.

Da ba Dee da ba die

[Zap Rowsdower]

I pretty much finished Nero's ISO and all I got out of it was "meh, he could be scum." I think there might have been some specific things but I'm not looking at my notes right now.

Da ba Dee da ba die

ya you have nothing son.

Why were you waiting for me to post about this anyway?

[Zap Rowsdower]

And yeah there's not really much in Nero's ISO worth exploring right now IMO. I think Yoshi's the best lynch today.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'd like to hear the people voting Dw explain the reasoning behind his two gambits. The one at the beginning of the game with the fake result on Elyse and the one yesterday with the fake result on ira.

[Zap Rowsdower]

My reaction tests this game did do things though.

I find myself unsure about this when thinking about your second gambit though, with the fake guilty on ira. You said you wanted to get him lynched, right? So was it not a reaction test?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I wanted both of you lynched before the day started and before you guys started tunneling me so interpret that however you want.

So you wanted us lynched before the day started, OK. Except that your reasoning for wanting us lynched is this:

I'm down for the lynch of either Gerryoat or Zap, and it's not because they want me dead (well kinda, obviously), but

because they are both focusing on me and only me, making no reads on anyone else or considering the scumread of another.

And yesterday I pretty much just focused on Elyse. So why did you say that the reason you want me lynched is because I'm "focusing on you and only you"?

[Zap Rowsdower]

So then you were kinda contradicting what you said in that discussion thread I quoted, no? The one where you said you would never fakeclaim a guilty?

[Zap Rowsdower]

tell me when that was posted

You posted in the discussion thread on January 30 this year. I found that post and quoted it in this game on August 14.

Spoiler:

OK found this, from a thread titled "Is it ever right to lie as a townie?"

What about when rc fake claimed a guilty and made the scum team forfeit?

What about when rc fake claimed a guilty and made the scum team forfeit?

Never fakeclaim guilites.

I never would. But then there is RC..

I was actually going to pull this game to show Dw how disastrous it can be for town when you fake a guilty. Since he knows about it, it would be pretty fucking shitty for him to fake a guilty now.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Do you think DW's "reaction" tests are townie?

Well, yes, kinda. Because I just feel like it goes against the grain of scum motivation, you know? Like, you draw attention to yourself by faking not one but two guilties? And then you call people town as a result? Just doesn't really help to get mislynches. Maybe if he's partners with Maria it'd make a bit more sense, but I still have a hard time believing Maria could be scum.

And then, I mean, think about what would've happened if Dw had stuck to the fake guilty on ira. It only makes sense if Dw and ira are partners together, because if ira flipped town then Dw would have to expect that we'd just turbolynch him the next day. And scumDw would know that ira was flipping town now that the traitor has flipped.

So then, what if ira

is

Dw's partner? They'd really pull that after losing the third member of their team? I know the automatic answer is "yeah they'd do it because they knew you'd townread them for it!!!!" but I just have a hard time believing that.

Not to mention the whole thing where I have a really hard time believing ira is scum anyway.

So the other option is that Dw is scum who's just flat-out lying right now about his intentions with the ira gambit. As in, he didn't really intend to get ira lynched when he fakeclaimed the guilty. That's the reason I'm still not totally willing to close the door on Dw being scum. The meta you claim exists might help me sort it out. Dw linked to some game where he was town but I lazily ctrl + f'ed his ISO in that game and couldn't find anything that looked like gambiting so I'm not sure what Dw was trying to show with it.

At any rate I just feel like there's so much more sketchy shit going on with BYF. He's bungling his reasons for scumreading me, he's sheeping the shallow reasoning that I'm scum because my reaction when I realized I'd accidentally hammered CR "looked fake" (I'd be sincerely interested to see an example of somebody realizing they'd accidentally hammered where nobody tried to argue the next day that the reaction "looked fake") and his actions in this game have largely benefited scum.

[Zap Rowsdower]

so you acknowledge that I said those words 7 months ago. lol

"Never" is not a finite word. So you've changed your mind on fakeclaiming? Why?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I wanted ira lynched ???

And it didn't occur to you that you could be wrong about ira and that you'd be royally screwing over town if ira wound up flipping town?

[Zap Rowsdower]

ok well, both me and Elyse have done "reaction" tests and you have no trouble scum reading us so?

"BUT DW DID TWO!"

I think his "tests" are null and I'm having a hard time seeing you as town believe that he's townie but Elyse and I are not. Also I'm p sure that it was Elyse that fakeclaimed a guilty on Maria...not DW. I think DW's "reaction" test was fakeclaiming a guilty on Elyse. I think he DID call her town but has since backtracked and is scumreading her as town.

K, well. One, I've soured on my scumread on Elyse. Not entirely because of the reaction test she did at the beginning of the game, but yeah.

Two, Elyse's reaction test at the beginning of the game wasn't a fake guilty. All she said was that Maria had townslipped. Similarly, your reaction test(s?) were not fake guilties. Which is why I read yours and Elyse's actions differently than I read Dw's. Because the actions were different.

Asking me to have the same opinion of three different players based on three separate sets of actions which are all different from each other is like asking me why I like the Toyota Camry but not the Mitsubishi Lancer or the Ford Taurus. All are sedans, but I only trust one to not cough its engine onto the ground after 100,000 miles.

Three, I think you're misunderstanding my approach to Dw right now. I've been townreading him and now I'm starting to question it. Which is why I'm trying to get some dialogue going and get perspective as I sort through my own thoughts about the slot.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Zap stop posturing and bus DW

Why should he be the lynch over BYF today?

[Zap Rowsdower]

I apologize for whatever role I've played in Nero's devolution into pettiness. All I can say is that maybe if we ignore it we can actually achieve a lynch.

On BYF, preferably.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Nero's making fun of me for thinking Dw might be town because of his fake guilties. He's not serious for the same reason(s) Dw wasn't serious before.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I've noticed it never takes long for me to start getting pissed off at this crew. Stepping away for a bit.

[Zap Rowsdower]

VOTE: Dwlee

Fuck it. I'd rather have BYF lynched today, but honestly if I'm even close to being on the right track with my townreads then all things equal there's a high percent chance Dw is scum.

I'm basically banking on the third explanation I gave for scumDw's fake guilty gambit (on ira) being true: That he was shooting for towncred and never had any real intention of trying to get ira lynched with the gambit; that he was trying to cover up his intentions by insisting that he did mean to get ira lynched; that he wasn't counting on me digging up an old post where he said he'd never do that.

That should be L-1.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I try not to be too petty when it comes to mafia, but Maria if you're town like I'm pretty confident you are then I am gonna rub your face in this so hard later.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yep yep. Thought that might happen. Hang on.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Elyse clearing the Skold/Wake/Michel slot:

Gotta look into the Wake slot

I think the Wake slot is fishy.

Welp I was wrong.

Wake is town.

Elyse clearing me:

Still gotta look at Zap tomorrow

Maria, Zap is dumb town.

I'm telling you Zap is town. I wish it weren't true but it is

That makes our possible pool of lynches {Maria, BYF, Gerry, ira, Nero}. Of these five, two are scum -- remember that godfathers can't exist in normals anymore. So lynching randomly would give us a 40% chance of hitting scum.

BUT, you are going to have one hell of a time convincing me that Maria, Gerry or ira are scum. Which means that unless I'm drastically wrong, we have a 100% chance of lynching scum if we lynch in {BYF, Nero}.

VOTE: BYF

By the way, Maria, this is what I was referring to when I said I would be rubbing your face in how wrong you've been. Not only were you scumreading town, you were scumreading PR-cleared town. If you're willing to listen with an open mind, I can explain to you why you were wrong about me.

[Zap Rowsdower]

This is what caught scum looks like.

Fire up the grill and get out the marinade. Time to have us some dino.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Yeah, nice try BYF.

Weak Doctor: This doctor dies if he protects an anti-town player.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Hey Nero. Who you gonna vote?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Second scum?

[Zap Rowsdower]

Hold the fk on...SO ZAP IS FUCKING TOWN?

[Zap Rowsdower]

You see how BYF responded to me? He not town.

Let's do eeeeeeeeeet

[Zap Rowsdower]

Like I'm almost certainly going to die tonight. Pls grant my dying wish and lynch BYF.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Well I did like a six-part post on that last day phase.

But also it's PoE now bc Gerry is town.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I think you're scum, Nero.

[Zap Rowsdower]

why?

Bc you're a Ford fan.

Nah but seriously, PoE. I'm pretty confident in all my remaining townreads, and you are not on that list.

I don't want to lynch until Zap gets it into my skull that gerry is town (I highly doubt it) or I get it in his head Gerry is scum

I have zero reason to believe that you'll listen to me. Once you've formed a read, you latch onto it and don't let go unless the person is confirmed town. When presented with a choice between a possible scenario and a highly unlikely tinfoil-hat type explanation, you've gone with the tinfoil hat this game. And while you might be more willing to hear me out now that you know I'm town, I doubt you will.

But between you, Nero and BYF there's enough votes to put Gerry at L-1. So let me get out ahead of this a little...

All he's done is gone into an ate rage with barely any reads tunneling 1 person the whole game doing weird noobie tells when it's really easy to fake as scum because and remember this everyone

This is irrelevant until you address the townslip, which was when he clearly showed that he didn't understand how the traitor worked despite scum having one.

GERRY ISN'T A NOOB

Chat mafia is so radically different from forum mafia that anybody who comes here from a chat site is basically a newbie for the purposes of argument, yes. Same thing happens if somebody who's never played chat mafia goes to EM and starts playing. They have their way of doing things and we have ours. For example, a person who plays chat mafia and comes to this forum will understand the basic foundation of the game but won't understand the strict rules that go into making normals, won't understand how scum treat each other and will have a different idea of how certain roles work. On EM, a gunsmith gives guns to other people. Here a gunsmith is an investigative.

The traitor role is also different, and that's where it counts that Gerry is a newb.