Mini 1633 ~ Non-normal Mafias Mafia OVER!!!

[Paschendale]

Confirming, but will be travelling all day tomorrow, so might not post much.

[Paschendale]

Creepy racist stuff right off the bat? Okay...

Given the tone of this game, I wouldn't be surprised if there's no arsonist. But it's good to know that, if there is one, we have a defense against it.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

For racism

[Paschendale]

Well, this ground to a halt rather quickly.

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Policy lynching is almost always a bad idea. And obviously, one vote does not a lynch make.

[Paschendale]

I'm not sure. I'm just allowing for the possibility that it might not be. Aren't miller claims sometimes met with policy lynches?

[Paschendale]

you dont think his posts are awkward and trying to blend in?
because thats exactly what im getting from his iso
also the whole spiel about setup spec and then calling someone out for rolefishing doesnt sit right

Not seeing the awkward, just seeing brand new game where no one knows exactly what to say. But I agree about the setup spec stuff. It's a distraction from scumhunting. But, again, we're only a few pages in. Mathdino merits some suspicion, but not as much as you seem to think.

I have no idea what Sonic's anime questions are for and why the hell did he vote MTD?

TN is 100% right about Sonic looking like he's trying to force a townbloc. Vote stays for now.

I really don't think we're going to need that much of January in order to complete day 1. December, due to the holidays, is probably iffy either way, but we won't need more than 12 or 14 days in January.

[Paschendale]

Actually, upon further review, Mathdino's setup spec looks perfectly legit. It was a conversation about Eye's roleclaim, and it makes a lot of sense. And then Dino cuts short further role speculation, which is good.

Townpoints for Mathdino, scumpoints for Om for misrepping the discussion. And some suspicion for all those reads that really aren't warranted this early, especially without any justification.

[Paschendale]

The best move for scum is often pro-town (e.g. bussing when they don't have to). Of course, that blurs the line between pro-town and pro-scum moves. Forming townblocs blurs the line between pro-town and pro-scum, because you don't know if the player forming the townbloc is scum or town. That lack of knowledge doesn't mean the act of creating a townbloc is scummy -- it's null, unless you have independent evidence that the player forming the townbloc is town or scum, in which case the player is town or scum based on something other than the act of forming the townbloc. Point is, forming townblocs is null. Whether they end up having a pro-town or pro-scum effect depends on whether the player forming it is scum.

As for Mastin's "lecture," Mastin's point is more about probability of success or failure -- townblocs formed early fail more often than townblocs formed later; townblocs that form organically without trying succeed more often than townblocs that form consciously. The original lecture -- I looked into it -- was in response to the question, "What's the best way to form townblocs." The question wasn't whether forming townblocs is scummy, and Mastin's answer has to be read in that context. I don't agree 100% with Mastin's analysis, either.

In my experience, I've never seen a townie say to themselves, "X is town because X formed a townbloc," so forming townblocs doesn't have much value as far as tricking townies into thinking you're town. I've also never seen any evidence that people who "force" townblocs are scum more often than town. In fact, in my experience, the vast majority of folks forming the townblocs are town.

I'm not saying Metal is town. I don't know. I think as a matter of scumhunting, a better approach is asking Metal why he thinks Om and TN are town. Trying to understand his thought-process, etc.

Making townblocs is a good way to create mutual townreads when they aren't warranted, and linking yourself to other players who are generally acknowledged to look like town is a good way to protect yourself. That's why forming townblocs can be seen as suspect. However, as games progress, townblocs often form naturally. Determining whether it is natural or duplicitous is pretty much the trick.

[Paschendale]

Why not? Scum likely knows what the setup's like already (if they have 2 members there's another scumteam or the setup is shit).

Also we'll know by tomorrow anyway, so I don't see how it's anti-town to reveal the info eyestott and I have about the setup.

Everything points to there being not just one killing faction in the game, and I think it's useful to keep that in mind when scumhunting.

I agree. That's useful information. And it is likewise useful to consider that the scum will likely be doing legitimate scumhunting, since they will be looking for other teams or the arsonist.

THIS GUY IS TOWN

Uh... no. Reciting theory is not a towntell.

[Paschendale]

The sizes of teams don't really matter right now. That there's multiple factions of killers is important, but otherwise I think we should move on from setup stuff.

[Paschendale]

So, why ARE people voting for Zombie here?

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The game just started, and we're on the verge of Christmas. I wouldn't even consider the game really begun for another few days.

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Zombehs is voting himself? I don't like that at all.

[Paschendale]

also actually im gonna openly hate on all the metal sonic votes

And the only better idea you have is to vote for newb lynchbait?

[Paschendale]

I didn't say he was town. I said the things that you're citing as scummy are much more just newbish. The self-vote included.

[Paschendale]

Because it's not legitimate scumminess. And you should know better.

[Paschendale]

Fine, with Metal Sonic gone, I will turn my attention to my next highest scumread... in the morning...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Paschendale]

I dont like it. Math is normally active, but theres probably a reasonable explanation.

Everything is fuzzy around holidays.

if pasch would be associated with anyone right now i think it would be with a zombeh scumflip

For wanting decent reasons before I vote? Suuuuuure. I'm totally scum for not sheeping your gut reads.

VOTE: Zombehs

Please try to play the game or signify that you want to replace out.

Lurker lynches on day 1 are pretty pathetic.

[Paschendale]

Fine, but we're on day 1, nowhere near LyLo. A lurker lynch likely won't give us any useful information from the wagon, since it's completely policy choice, not based on the player's content. It's easy to just nod along with policy or feign outrage over it, so you won't find scum from who did or didn't vote a lurker. It's a wasted day.

[Paschendale]

if pasch would be associated with anyone right now i think it would be with a zombeh scumflip

For wanting decent reasons before I vote? Suuuuuure. I'm totally scum for not sheeping your gut reads.

you have been against the wagon quite a lot without even reading zombehs as town and you have expressed your own dislike at some of zombeh's actions.
you are clearly taking no stance on zombehs other than you dont want him to be lynched but you arent pushing anyone else while you do it
this lynch is not a wasted lynch if it hits scum and the only defense you can give to the reasons i've outlined is that its a newbtell, which says absolutely nothing as to why it cant be scum

My problem with it is that it's no more likely to hit scum than a random dice roll, and I don't like to play that way. I don't want to encourage such bad play.

As for a better suspect, I'm starting to suspect you. You're so dead set on quicklynching a newbie. Of course, scum knows if its a mislynch and so will fight for it harder, and know that it will stifle useful discussion.

[Paschendale]

UNLESS YOU ARE EXPLICITLY READING ZOMBEHS AS TOWN YOU SHOULDNT BE DEFENDING THE WAGON

calling it a newblynch is just a fucking cop out to get yourself out of needing to form a read on him

That is complete and utter horseshit. If a lynch looks bad, I will certainly work to prevent it, even if I have a null read on its target. Meanwhile, the things you say are scummy about Zombehs aren't scummy. No matter how many times you say they are, it won't become true. You're just making up bullshit to justify your predetermined conclusion.

I feel like he's going through the motions -- asking questions, taking a couple positions -- but doesn't care what happens. Part of this comes from his overuse of qualifiers like damn and fuck; overemphasizing points that don't need that emphasis makes the emotion feel very fake.

This is an interesting point and I'm gonna go back and look at Ghost's posts with this in mind.

[Paschendale]

Yeah, some of Ghost's emotional bits look empty. His analytic stuff is also dead wrong. We should not be lurker lynching on day 1.

Om... of course newbies can be scum. But nothing he's doing is scummy. It's just random alignment neutral newb stuff. You are simply equating the two. I am trying to show you that these points do not create a scumread. They're null. They're just indications of experience, not alignment. Your hellbent tunneling on a new player for a handful of posts is pretty suspect. You have no case. You have only a rant against a newbie for being a newbie. There's no good reason to think that you've found scum, and you're completely failing to sell it to me.

[Paschendale]

So, I think our biggest concern in the game right now is how much of the playerbase isn't playing. Ika has 1 post, MTD only has 4, Fud 5, and Zombeh 7. I don't want to lynch lurkers, but they'd better start contributing or else that might change.

[Paschendale]

So, I think our biggest concern in the game right now is how much of the playerbase isn't playing. Ika has 1 post, MTD only has 4, Fud 5, and Zombeh 7. I don't want to lynch lurkers, but they'd better start contributing or else that might change.

This is incredibly wishy-washy. If you believe their actions are hurting Town and not contributing, why the fuck not?

Take Zombeh's post count for instance. Unless those seven posts are substantive, that's almost begging to be under the radar. (Ditto, Fud) At least with Ika you could make the argument with one post he's just not HERE.

Because I expect them to start contributing. This game started right around Christmas. A lot of people simply aren't playing it yet. We shouldn't limit our lynch choices based on activity so early in the game. We have plenty of time and should be encouraging people to play, rather than trying to quicklynch. We are in no hurry. I'll take Zombeh for instance. He's not really playing. Those seven posts aren't substantive. So, instead of lynching him for not yet playing this game, I want him to start posting some substance and start playing. Then we can make an informed read of his alignment.

Oh, and for those of you who hate the whole 'lets not lynch lurkers or VIs Day 1' (MS was closer to a VI than a lurker and there's definitely a difference there), at least I have a fucking stance about it and I'm not going to to bullshit you on 'you better get active before I look your way'.

And what exactly is your superior method to encourage contribution? Threats seem to be the only way to get people to pay attention in my experience.

[Paschendale]

And expect any of us to take you seriously. It's almost like you created this whole reasoning of 'I don't want to lynch lurkers Day 1' to seem Town and then went the other way to seem even more Town. At best, you're being hypocritical because you don't plan on proposing a lynch below the radar AT ALL but you want to get lurkers to contribute which is null, and at worst, this shows a desire to keep your options open, only adapting a position as long as it suits your purposes, which is scum.

So what's your better idea? Yes, it's hypocritical to threaten lurkers at the same time blasting lurker lynches. But in the absence of a better approach to lurkers, I don't see an alternative. Do you have a better idea, or are you just being a pain in the ass?

[Paschendale]

He's telling you that you can't have it both ways.

I'm well aware, but I'm also not aware of any actual way besides prods and replacement to get inactive players to be more active. Do you? Threats are pretty much the only way, and I don't want to decide the day's lynch based on activity rather than content.

[Paschendale]

Do you have some

possibly

misguided hope that they'll get into the game like good scummers?

Yes. That is exactly what I hope will happen. It's not even about those specific players. I just really hate when a game's tone is dictated by the people not playing it. We're forced to alter how we want to play based on people who aren't even posting. I really hate that. It ruins the game and makes it not fun to play.

[Paschendale]

do you really think i'd let a zombehs lynch happen so fast
do you rreally think i would cut the day super short when half the playerlist hasnt posted outside RVS with any meaningful content
its hurtful you think i would be so impulsive

You've certainly been arguing in favor of these things and calling me scum for opposing you doing them. So yes, I do think those things.

if we had to lynch purely from lurkers then id go
Zombehs>MTD>FuD>Dino>Ghostlin>Four

Definitely interesting that you leave Metal Sonic out of that list. Was all of this just an attempt to diffuse the wagon there?

[Paschendale]

ika has made only one post nd that was a confirm post which is vry hard to get reads off of
therefore ika has no place in that list but ika needs to post more

also i swear to god pasch i hope you are just super horribly misguided and not scum with those attacks
please i honestly want you to tell me why im scum for pushing a lynch with my heart and soul when nobody else is pushing any other wagons with any sort of gusto other than saying i want them lynched and everyone else who is on the zombeh wagon sheeped me on to it

I'm mostly just saying you're making bad choices. I'm also saying that you're making arguments that damage your credibility. I haven't suggested that you are scum, not yet. I have shown how some of the things you're doing definitely can come from scum motivation. But that doesn't necessarily mean they do.

i dont think scum om would blatantly lead the town and be the only one producing content that people actually discuss when i could just up and lurk and nobody would be any wiser about it

So, you say that scum you would be quiet and lurk to be overlooked. A lot of people don't do that. A lot of people have different kinds of scum play. Some try to take charge. Some try to imitate their town game as much as possible. Some try to push their town game towards their scum game until neither alignment is easy to read.

im sorry but it rlly annoys me when people are being so stupidly paranoid just because im the only one actually doing things around here
eyestott may seem like hes doing stuff but a lot of his posts are him agreeing with me and discussing theory
pasch is just putting suspicion on me for the stupidest reasons and arguing against lurker lynches
tn is literally floating on a fence because he's doing all of the above and being all round unmemorable in anything he's said

You're not the only one doing anything around here. Many of us are trying as well, and you're just shouting loud enough to drown us out. That, by the way is something that scum do a lot. Eye's doing okay. He's just not in a hurry like you're lying about not being in. I'm suspecting you for the consequences we'd face if we listened to you. Tn is bring careful because he doesn't want to rush a lynch.

want solid good reasons for a push on metal sonic taking aside the townblock argument because literally that can be chalked up to his style of play without a doubt

I want him to come back or get replaced and so explain himself.

if you're gonna fucking call me scum for pushing a lynch on zombeh because oh no zombeh is a newb or oh no zombeh is a lurker then fucking just vote me and push for my lynch dont just fricking dilly dally around these accusations i literally couldnt give a shit about that even if i tried

I'm not calling you scum yet. But if I do, it will because of the poor choices you're making, and the anti-town consequences of following them.

tn change of vote to me to get my attention (yes im aware of your vote and i delibertly ignored it)

also tn posts a LOT less as scum (tn should recall our open game where i replaced in)

im iso phach again and so far i have seen potshot attack on players and passiveness while tn is actialy trying to do stuff

I have absolutely not been passive. I've been trying to push the game from a crapshoot lurker killing game based on dice rolls to a game where we actually figure this out. You'd best come at me with more than this nonsense.

After this there's all just way too much nonsense and I am very tired. I'll catch up some more tomorrow.

[Paschendale]

Just to wagon someone for the sake of wagoning them is all I have.

Not a good idea when we aren't about to hit the deadline.

[Paschendale]

Upon further reflection, I think Om genuinely is my top scumread right now. Actively trying to prevent the town from using any kind of deductive skills and giving scum a free day? Yeah, that's pretty scummy. Imagine if we had done what she wanted? We'd have some random person dead right now and basically no information from the wagon to analyze. We'd be starting day 2 with a pair of dead town (unless we got really lucky, but who the hell wants to count on that?) and being basically back at RVS, since the lynch would have been solely based on policy and not content. What would we do then, lynch another lurker? This whole notion relies on the misguided idea that somehow scum are just going to lurk. That's absurd. People ignore games for many different reasons and it's seldom alignment indicative. There is absolutely no reason to think that we'd hit a scum with such a random shot. Compounding this is that Om apparently feels qualified to rank the lurkers despite their lack of content, and makes the assumption that someone who isn't active right now will continue to do that a month from now. There's just too many unfounded assumptions and assertions for this to fly. It's a tactical choice, and one that benefits scum a lot more than town.

VOTE: Om

[Paschendale]

Alright, the answer I got about the guns is fucking nuts. According to the mod, there is 1 gun in the game right now.

Could you explain some of your ability more? What does this result actually mean? Although you seem just as confused about it as I am...

k ika
VOTE: Dino

Opportunist bandwagoning.

[Paschendale]

SK's typically use knives or other bladed weaponry.

Don't vigs use guns?

[Paschendale]

This latest setup spec doesn't seem to be helping us much. I suppose it's useful to know that scum are going to be scumhunting other killing roles, so they'll look more like town. I'm not sure how that helps, though. It's filling my brain with WIFOM. Also my brain has been full of actual wine a lot lately. Happy New Year!

[Paschendale]

Mathdino has made 32 posts in other topics since he declared LA.
Seriously.

Let me ask you this. What motivation does Mathdino have to do this for this specific game as scum that he does not have as town? I won't disagree at all that this is weird. But your implication is that it is an intentional strategy. So, what is the purpose of said strategy?

[Paschendale]

Mathdino has made 32 posts in other topics since he declared LA.
Seriously.

Let me ask you this. What motivation does Mathdino have to do this for this specific game as scum that he does not have as town? I won't disagree at all that this is weird. But your implication is that it is an intentional strategy. So, what is the purpose of said strategy?

Scum

don't

try to fly under the radar? That's news to me. A lack of contribution seems to indicate to me, at least an unwillingness to even

fake

scum hunting. Also, the inactivity present in this game finds a good place for people to hide. Shit, there's really not a reason for me to not:

But that's a piss poor job of flying under the radar. It's blatantly obvious to all of us that Mathdino isn't posting here. None of us are going to miss that. If he was really trying to fly under the radar, wouldn't he avoid something so noticeable and so easily discoverable?

[Paschendale]

I'm not defending him. I'm debating the merits of the push. It seems to me that scum would leap on a poorly justified push like this.

[Paschendale]

hard defending every lynch choice is not a good way to garner townreads if thats what ur after

I just oppose the bad choices that are probably being pushed by scum. Are you preoccupied with being townread? Seems like the sort of thing that someone with no allies would be doing. Are you a faction all by yourself?

[Paschendale]

hard defending every lynch choice is not a good way to garner townreads if thats what ur after

I just oppose the bad choices that are probably being pushed by scum. Are you preoccupied with being townread? Seems like the sort of thing that someone with no allies would be doing. Are you a faction all by yourself?

how about you be productive and tell us who the scum on the waogn is. you have yet to even answer half of the things om asked.

its not too late to join us and redeem youself

You do see that I have a vote cast, don't you? You should join me. Vote for Om. She's trying very hard to find reasons to lynch people based on anything besides an analysis of their actual play and is overly concerned with other people townreading her. We already have reason to think that there are solo factions in this game, such as an arsonist. She's playing exactly like a third party survivor should play. She's not creating actual analysis than can be used against her later and she is trying to get people onto her side.

Oh, and badgering people with pointless questions is a pretty scummy tactic, too. I'm hardly going to convince her of the case against her, and all it does it provide the opportunity for useless nitpicking. If you have questions about my case on her, by all means ask, but I'm not in the habit of entertaining nonsense from my scumreads.

Oh, and deflection. Look at the post right after yours. We have established that there are solo factions, but Om makes a joke out of it. She has no answer, just deflection.

And, of course, she can't actually make a good argument for why I should agree with her, so she resorts to threats and bullying.

[Paschendale]

How about "why isn't everyone sheeping Pasch when he's obviously right?"

[Paschendale]

How about "why isn't everyone sheeping Pasch when he's obviously right?"

how about "why havent you responded to ohms rebuttal yet?"

What rebuttal? Keep mind, a rebuttal is a well founded argument, not just deflection or nonsense. Om has yet to do anything other than ask me to quote her not saying things. That's not a rebuttal.

Hey, why are you defending Om so hard? See? I can pull that one, too.

[Paschendale]

i said provide examples and you have failed to do so
as far as im concerned you are pulling things out of ur ass

You demanded examples of you not doing things. Do you realize that this is insane? Honestly, I don't care what you say. I have no interest in what you think of why I know that you're scum. I don't need your approval to show your alignment to everyone else. I don't know why anyone cares about your whining and yelling about it. Your "defense" has been little more than saying "nuh uh!"

So listen up everyone else, Om is going to lie in her defense. There is no doubt of that. If you, who might actually be town and legitimately interested in scumhunting, have questions about why I think she's scum, go ahead. I'd be happy to answer actual questions. But her questions aren't questions. They're stall tactics and attempts at deflection. We all saw her barreling ahead to get lynches in as fast as possible. She said NOTHING about holding off or not going ahead with these lynches until she was called out on it. The caution she claims to have had wasn't there. She isn't pushing lynches based on actual content. She is avoiding that at all costs. She's spent a week pushing what essentially amounts to policy lynches. Apparently, she townreads EVERYONE WHO IS POSTING (except me because I'm going after her). Seriously? That's complete bullshit. She's scum. She was trying to play it safe. And then she doubled down too hard on her scum tactics.

[Paschendale]

I see most of what you're saying as bad play over scum play. Except maybe the policy lynches

I've played with Om a few times before. Bad play would be surprising from her. It looks deliberate to me.

Question: do you feel that pushing for policy lynches is innately scummy? Please give me more than a 'yes' or 'no' to this question; I need to see the thought process.

No. I see pushing for policy lynches so steadfastly in this circumstance to be scummy. I see a complete refusal to analyze and examine content to be scummy. I see the move to push lynches that are based on policy as a pro-scum tactic, since it results in less information the next day. You can't really analyze a wagon if it's based on policy. Anyone who simply said "yes, that's good policy" could be scum taking advantage of a policy lynch on someone they know isn't their ally. And it is not simply the advocacy of a policy lynch that has made me think that Om is scum. It is the advocacy for several in a row and the refusal to start analyzing content that has. We're on page 27. We should have more than enough content to find an actual scum. Do we take a risk because all the scum might just be lurking? Yes. Should we forgo all of our usual scumhunting because of this risk? Hell no. But that is what Om is asking us to do. That is a move that absolutely hurts town and helps scum.

I do agree you cannot arguably prove a negative, that's why they call it a fucking negative. Can you give a point of reference for the dumb kids in the back of the class (ie, me) that demonstrate the behaviors we're listing off?

I'm not even really sure how to do this. One of the "arguments" she made was that she wasn't really trying to get a lynch to happen to end the day so quickly. There is no evidence of a timetable at all. She never addressed this. She simply advocated that people vote for a few specific people. What she is asking us to believe is that she would somehow have put a stop to the whole thing if it neared a lynch quickly. I see no reason to make this assumption on her behalf. When she finally did address this issue (when someone else brought it up), it was too little too late. Had more people gone along with her, we'd be in day 2 already with a quick lurker lynch. She can claim what her intent was all she likes, but that is the result that her actions would lead to.

I'm not sure what to give as a "point of reference" for this. There is no specific post addressing this. This is the sum total of many posts and the pace and tone she adopted throughout them in her attempts to push her lynches. She wanted no discussion, she wanted no analysis. She just wanted votes, and she gave every impression that she wanted them right now.

[Paschendale]

You say that you've got a fine read on om implying that he is trying to rush lynches through. Would you mind quoting a post or two of what you feel are the most overt examples and walk us through how you arrived at scum!om?

No, I'm not pouncing on individual posts. I'm discussing what they add up to.

Furthermore, could you explain how removing a lurker from the game can in any way considered to be a loss? It removes a negative utility player from the game, something that scum will NEVER do intentionally. I would honestly say the situation since 359 hasn't changed much. How long are we going to run around in circles before eventually deciding to lynch the most prolific lurker, anyway? Not that I'm against argument, but this one does not seem like it will be productive any time soon. We've established that you disagree about what sort of things to do on day one and that you feel anyone using a d1 theory that you aren't is your top scumread because Fucking Moon Logic. I would even say that pasch/om is doing more to slow down the game than the recent holiday season did.

I see, so you don't actually want to lynch a scum today. We have thirteen players in this game. Maybe four qualify as lurking. Why would we limit ourselves to a random guess out of four people, of whom we don't have any reason to suspect that any are scum at all? Why shouldn't we deal with the players that we can actually make informed judgments about? Of course, to you, that's "fucking moon logic".

I also disagree with the idea that scum don't push lurker lynches. I've seen it before. And for the reasons I've given. It's a safe push. It's a way to push a mislynch without creating content, and it's a way to get some towncred out of the less discerning players. That's why scum talk policy on day one, so they can avoid talking about the important things.

pasch started his tirade by not agreeing with me on zombeh-scum
and somewhere down the line he turned it into zombeh=policy lynch
when i was clearly advocating zombeh as a scum lynch, with still some utility even if town bc got rid of a questionable player
now that titus is here and producing a lot of controversy in the thread and sparking action a lynch on that slot is less effective


with all the people posting now a lynch on an active slot wouldnt be damning
but at the time when i made the zombeh argument only about 5 people were regularly posting
and i dont understand why pasch was forcing himself to choose scum out of those 5 people
and i also dont understand why he thinks im not analyzing content
ive been scumhunting the whole game
i just got a little lazy as of late because everyone is taking care of this fight for me

Why is no one else calling Om out on the obviousness of the lie above? That there was any reason to call Zombeh scum? Seriously? That's complete nonsense. That was 100% policy no matter how you dress it up. And the biggest lie... that the players who are active at one moment will always have that activity. She assumes that those who weren't active when she decided to kill a lurker would always be inactive, and seems to think that I think the same thing. I stopped her push for a quick lynch on a lurker because I knew that people would start showing up. And they have. But all Om can do is keep reinforcing this lie.

As for why sheeping, I cannot help but read the page I say hello on. It happens. Without context, Om looked bad. Plus a calm and reserved player like Paschendale generally does not tunnel like that. So sheeping would at least get me reads and see how everyone else felt. It gets us away ftom policy and towards discussion.

I wouldn't call it a tunnel. But Om is stepping so far out of line that I can't let it go.

Please explain. I'm like 99% certain eye is town.

The more I look at it, that post from Midget looked more like looking for allies than actual reads.

[Paschendale]

Om, what the hell in seven posts gives you that much of a case? The self-vote that was a new player giving up on a game they weren't ready for? You saw obviously newb actions and declared them scum. You had nothing to back it up. All you did was try to railroad a new player who clearly had no idea what they were doing. You had no case. You had an easy target that you tried to make a quick mislynch out of.

[Paschendale]

i really dont fucking understand
why the heck you come up with the assertion that new players are infallible
otherwise literally the only people who would roll scum in newbie games would be IC's and SE's

newbs can be scum
end of fucking argument
i am not pushing policy lynches on that basis
i am pushing scum lynches

I never said that newbies can't be scum. I said there's no reason to conclude scum from Zombeh's few posts. You declared them to be scummy without actually saying why. You never made a case. You just jumped on a newbie to paint him as scummy so you could push a mislynch. You hoped no one would notice that you weren't actually arguing any kinds of good reasons to vote along with you. Stop lying. The issue isn't over whether or not a newbie can be scum. The issue is over whether or not there's a good reason to think that THIS newbie is scum. And there isn't. And you never offered one. Stop trying to distract with this nonsense over "infallible newbies". I'm not saying anything like that.

you have failed to fucking tell me why he is town
instead you resort to shitty buzzwords (lurker and policy and newb)
you argue that he is just new
new could mean either
so therefore you have no reason to think it's on a townie without a doubt
easy targets dont just mean town
scum can be super shit too

The argument here is that we should default assume that Zombehs was scum. If we have to prove that a newb is town in order not to lynch him... guess what, that's a policy lynch! Instead, you prove he's scum, and we're going to take up the "innocent until proven guilty" stance until you do something to change our minds. You haven't done anything close to that except attempt to shift the burden of proof. I don't need to prove him town. He's quite demonstrably null to everyone but you. You need to prove why he's scum, instead of just assuming it and declaring it and pretending that the discussion is over.

you are either way at this point, but im enjoying the idea of scum you more and more
flubber is town
four is town
fud is a lurkershit
ghostlin is town
ika is town
dino could still be scum prolly more than the rest of the lurkers
mtd is a lurkerfuck
pasch is extremely controversial and obv bc hes against me i want to call him scum but im not sure on that based on his insistence
random is town
titus is scum
tn is likely town

What an astoundingly self-serving readlist. The only scum are her detractors, and I'm too dangerous that if she goes after me she'll go down in the conflict.

People who have played with Om before: Is this something town Om does, something scum Om does, both, or neither?

As far as I recall, neither.

my weakness in mafia is not being presented well enough so that is more of a burden to me
ive had games in the past when ive called out scumteams within 5 pages and never been able to push them to lynch before the end of the game, even when i still believe them

As a matter of friendly advice for future games, you should try to gather your thoughts more coherently, write in proper English, and explain your positions in a concise manner. Also cut the spamposting.

[Paschendale]

So what bright idea do you have, FourTrouble?

[Paschendale]

On the contrary if Om is not scum, Pasch has explaining to do. Still people should interact with Pascher outside his tunnel.

@Pasch, suppose you are right, who is Om's team? And if you are wrong who is scum?

What exactly do I have to explain about pursuing my strongest scumread? How about you explain why you're not doing that? Also, if you read any of the argument that you're sheeping, you would see that I called Om third party. Who else is scum? I dunno. You might be. Now, do you wanna contribute or just snark at me because it's day fucking one and how the hell do you think I'd have everyone who isn't town pinned down when we don't even know how many people that is? It's not pro-town to poke the only person with an actual case with a stick and act like he should have all the answers.

you managed to form a read on me without even interacting directly with me

Direct interaction mostly just creates arguments, not reads.

i'll excuse you for not being able to read MTD Fud or Dino tho since they are lurker fucks
but everyone else has a presence in this game

That's funny because you don't have a meaningful read on anyone else.

I thought Id get home earlier, but its now 11:30.
I will say this:
We need to not lynch Om.
He is the one at the forefront of pretty much all discussion. Lynching him, even if he's scum, would likely do more harm than good to the town, given the current state of the game (A bunch of missing players)

So who do you propose we lynch instead?

That's two people now who are just poo pooing the existing ideas without adding any of their own.

[Paschendale]

That's funny because you don't have a meaningful read on anyone else.

you
are tunneling town
without even reconsidering anything
and you are telling

me

that my reads arent meaningful?
i hope you fucking realise how much of an idiot you are being[/quote]

I'm saying that you have failed to make any well founded arguments for anyone's alignment. And you haven't. You might think you're super duper special and that you're making good points. But you aren't. You gave exactly nothing to support Zombehs as scum and have done nothing else but push lurker lynches since then. So no, I'm not being an idiot. And I'm certainly considering lots of things. But I'm not tunneling town. I'm chasing a scum.

muh apathy

how much longer is om/pasch gonna be a thing before we can get back to playing?

When one of you dipships stops complaining about it and offers something else. Or you do something constructive and vote for Om so we can have a dead scum.

What, not agreeing with you is "poo pooing the existing ideas"? I'm only disagreeing with one thing, but I find it interesting how youre trying to spin it as me being contrary to everything.

No, I'm accurately pointing out that the people who apparently don't like my case on Om don't have any cases of their own.

[Paschendale]

If you guys don't want to lynch Om, how about Ika? He doesn't even have the passion and energy that Om has, arguing for a lurker lynch like she means it. Ika is just lazily going along with it.

[Paschendale]

VOTE: Ika

Definitely. Self-voting is never okay.

[Paschendale]

Deadline wagons give zero info. Doubly so if no one actually scum reads the target. It is one thing to have a last second compromise.

All this does is lynch ika for no reason.

I don't disagree in principle, but we have a week until the deadline. Why do you ignore the good reasons to lynch Ika? He is basically steadfastly refusing to participate in the game. He's avoiding discussions, will only entertain lynching lurkers for the consequence free lynches, and is self-voting. He is acting against the interests of town and continues to do so. He's basically pulling a scum Varsoon play.

i dont even care about who makes sense as buddies anymore i just want this day to fucking end i hate how everyone is buying into the buddy suspicions of a guy who has literally been trying to tie himself to me every single chance he gets since the original Zombeh wagon im fucking tired of the fact that i am literally pouring out every single feeling of mine into all these posts and you guys are fucking believing the bullshit tunnels laid forth by pasch im fuckin tired of the fact that titus over here is being blatantly useless and hypocritical and everyone in this game is too fucking apathetic (which by the way was not helped in the slightest by the actions of Titus) to actually notice the fact that people other than myself, pasch and eye actually may have a chance at being scum and i swear to god i am just so fucking angry at town for being useless fucks i am angry at the fact that half the playerlist had to be replaced already this game makes me so fucking mad i swear to god

Maybe if you made a compelling case instead of yelling at us we'd go along with you. I opposed you because you did literally nothing to make me believe the authenticity of your suspicions on Zombehs or Mathdino. You failed to sell your cases, and they both looked completely disingenuous. The only person you should be angry at is yourself.

I agree about the replacements and inactivity though. I hate letting inactivity determine how a game goes. Of course, your blanket idea to just lynch lurkers means letting inactivity determine how the game goes. Funny how you are "angry" about that, yet you try to take advantage of it for a free lynch.

just everyone get the fuck on titus i dont even care to argue my points anymore at this time

And this is even less compelling than your previous attacks on people. Why exactly should I listen to you?

Shit this is town.

A temper tantrum is all it takes to get you to change your mind? Seriously? This is the only scummy thing I've seen you do, but it's a doozy.

titus you have still failed to fucking give a read on anyone else but myself an eye and you have given an entirely myself-alignment-dependent read on pasch you are coasting you are coasting you are coasting and nobody is doing anything about it because they are buying into the fucking paranoia about my towniness that you laid forth

PEDIT: eye get on her if you dont want to be the lynch for today

The lack of reads on many other players is unsurprising since few of them are talking. If you want that to change, you should clam up for a while since half this game is you talking or people responding to you.

Hey, om. If I'm agreeing you, I MUST be white nighting you!
Because according to Titus, I can't agree with someone as its white nightingale if they're town and buddying if they're scum!

Why don't you offer some actual reasons for voting Titus beyond simple OMGUS.

Can we lynch eyestott? He is probs scum and titus is peob town. I wpuldnt be surprised if Titus got vigged.

And you reach these conclusions... why?

It's this right here that's the issue. The desperation of having no one suspect you is problematic.

Your speech is awkward and over the top. There's no hunting. No questions. No thought. Solely defending with a bit of OMGUS attack.

See, this is why not reading the parts of the game that happened before you arrived is problematic. Eye has been one of the most active players in this game, and he has been contributing the whole time. Maybe he's not doing especially well at the moment, but taken as a whole, his actions aren't the way you're describing them. I don't think you're intentionally misrepping, but you are very clearly working from incomplete information. You should go back and ISO Eye and tell me if you still have this conclusion.

I feel eye as probable scum right now from reading through and I think it's definitely the most reasonable wagon at this point.

Why do you think this?


-------------------


I really don't like this sudden flurry of votes and a striking lack of discussion or support for those votes. There are definitely scum among the current pushes and I'd like to some reasons given so that when we have a flip, we'll actually have the information to figure out who the scum are.

[Paschendale]

Or was the question why I think the other wagons are worse?

In that case: ika is town. I've rarely seen scum display this kind of frustration, also ika was basically one of the more town players all game IMO.
next from that is Titus I think? As I said I'm pretty certain that's town-titus and even though zombeh giving up on this sucks, it's not changing my mind there.

I have displayed that much frustration as scum. I also don't have any good meta read on Titus. She's pretty similar as scum and as town, so I'll definitely need more info before reaching a conclusion about her. I definitely don't see town from Ika at all. Either currently or earlier in the day. Can you elaborate on that read?

@Pasch, people can town tell. Right now, the choices are ika and eye. That rage wall is a towntell. I have done it myself. A lot. It cannot be faked.

I have faked it. I have seen others fake it. And no, the choices are not Ika and Eye. We have many more choices. Don't artificially limit our options. And don't lie about fake absolute towntells.

PeEdit: Ghostlin is 100% correct.

[Paschendale]

Why do you think this?

Reason that stuck in mind were the recent votechanges that seemed really weird (first going on ika which seemed like going for the easy mislynch, then switching to titus which seems like a wagon that isn't going to happen anyway plus it was for meagre reasons) and what Titus said: The posting seems forced and a bit too eager to look good for my liking.

I am not that definitive about this but the other wagons likely to happen are much worse IMO.

this, but scrap the ika part.

Could you sort out the quote tags? I don't really know what you're saying here.

His reasoning seems pretty shallow (if not weird, read his Ika defense) when it exists, his actual defense of Ika has bizarre resonance with the idea that a Vig would kill Ika (Vigs generally do not target folks who will have their ass in the wind soon) and it seems like a really fucking great way to get town cred.

Good point. Midget is avoiding justifying his positions. Shallow is exactly right. I'd be down for a Midget wagon, since the rest of town apparently can't comprehend why I'm right about Ika and Om.

Pasch or tn are the scum on your wagon - possibly both. Pasch's vote was especially scummy.

Please actually justify this conclusion. It seems like you're confusing me with someone else.

VOTE: Pasch

Oh look. She calls me town while arguing with me, continually just screams and yells that I shouldn't be so mean to her and how dare I point out that her arguments are terrible, and takes an opportunistic vote at the guy who's advocating her lynch. She's not town voting for a suspect here, she's scum trying to protect herself. Seriously, I don't know why any of you don't want to lynch this.

[Paschendale]

Why do you think this?

Reason that stuck in mind were the recent votechanges that seemed really weird (first going on ika which seemed like going for the easy mislynch, then switching to titus which seems like a wagon that isn't going to happen anyway plus it was for meagre reasons) and what Titus said: The posting seems forced and a bit too eager to look good for my liking.

I am not that definitive about this but the other wagons likely to happen are much worse IMO.

this, but scrap the ika part.

Could you sort out the quote tags? I don't really know what you're saying here.

That's weird, they sorted themselves out when I quoted you.

It sounds like you, like Titus, are reading Eye based on a small part of his play. I don't think that conclusion holds up against the day as a whole. Why not join me in lynching Ika or perhaps Midget?

[Paschendale]

VOTE: Ika

Definitely. Self-voting is never okay.

If self-voting is "never okay," why'd you spend so much energy defending Zombeh?

Because I know the difference between deliberate action and ignorance. I suppose I should have said "intentional self voting is never okay", but I assumed that people reading it understand the difference. Don't you?

And, of course, I never defended Zombehs. I never once asserted that he was town. I (correctly) said that the attempts to lynch that slot were duplicitous. Again, please understand the difference and don't misrep what I've said.

He's pulling a Varsoon play without knowing what the fuck he's doing. And he's STILL getting results from it.

And what results are you seeing? I'm seeing scum trying to make people dislike him for style rather than content in an atmosphere where we're trying not to lynch people for that. That's a tactic to make people second guess any scumreads on him.

[Paschendale]

Midget, the suspicion on Pasch has nothing to do with Om. Take a look at his votes. He defends Zombeh for self-voting, then jumps on ika when he self-votes. He hasn't done anything significant this game other than attack the reasoning others use - so his play is reactive (just sitting on the outside), inconsistent, and opportunistic (voting ika).

Also, if you actually read what I say, the self vote from Ika was merely the last straw and I have a lot of other problems with Ika's play. The vote was merely the tipping point to take my focus off of Om.

[Paschendale]

I suppose I should have said "intentional self voting is never okay"

How does one unintentionally self-vote?

Doing so by not understanding what you're doing or its implications.

Pasch is saying Zombeh was a noon and therefore not scum. So when it comes to Zombeh, Pasch takes into account the specific player ("Zombeh is a noob so self-voting isn't scummy for him") but when it comes to ika, he doesn't ("ika's self-vote is scummy regardless of ika's meta"). Pasch also maintains that he wasn't defending Zombeh, just attacking the players for voting him. That's scummy because Pasch is refusing to tie himself to a position - instead he's focused on attacking or commenting on others reason ing. Town are looking for the scum so they take positions on alignments; scum are looking for ways to look engaged without having to look for scum. Pasch is doing the latter (lots of commentary on what others say but very little attempt to tie that commentary to alignment).

No, I did not say he wasn't scum. I said that the argument for him being scum was crap. That's it. I didn't attack anyone for voting Zombehs. I attacked people for making bad cases. That is my position. Tie me to it all you like. Feel free to criticize what I'm actually doing, but you get nothing for saying I'm doing something else.

You can be damn sure I'm looking for scum. I've found two good candidates so far. I found two instances of players pushing lynches for shallow or faked reasons and getting in the way of genuine scumhunting. Tell me, are you just chainsawing me in order to defend Ika? Cuz that's what it looks like you're doing. You're intentionally misrepping my actions in order to diffuse my case on Ika.

[Paschendale]

Self-voting outside of self-hammering is a null tell. I've seen it happen from frustrated town and scum both. As scum, it's AtE. As town, it's surrender/fukitol.

Instantly writing off self-votes as scummy is scummy.

Self-hammering is an exception because it has an immediate benefit for scum in shutting down communication.

I've actually only ever seen town self-hammer. But I've seen scum self-vote for sympathy pretty often. Either way, the self-vote is only a small part of my case on Ika. It's interesting that FourTrouble is ignoring the entire rest of my case.

Give him the Amish treatment. They shun troublemakers in their society, refusing to talk to or even look at them.

And if that's his intention? Because that's a scum tactic I've seen before. Why do you automatically dismiss this possibility?

-------------

This whole "defending" thing is complete bullshit. If you "defend" someone, then someone will claim that you're defending a partner. If you don't, you're scum because... actually I have no idea why FourTrouble thinks that this is something scum would do. He just claims it is without saying how it benefits scum to do that. He also lies and says I'm not scumhunting, despite having two suspects that I've been pushing rather hard. And why exactly should I have a strong enough townread on someone that early in the game? Four should know better than this. The "defending" he's expecting is something you don't see that early in the game.

So which is it, Four? You really want to claim that I'm scum because I devoted some, but not most, of my efforts to stopping what I saw as a mislynch? And you're ignoring the majority of my posts which are scumhunting. This is a seriously empty argument you're making. Why are you lying and misrepping so hard? And why are any of the rest of you believing him? Didn't you read the rest of the game?

[Paschendale]

I'm not ignoring Pasch's case. I've asked for it multiple times:

I've given it multiple times. What part is confusing you?

Pasch says he was trying to stop a mislynch. But --

A bad case is more likely to be wrong than a good one. Trumped up bullshit on a null read of mine is probably a mislynch. Don't you care about finding scum and not lynching nullreads?

Also note the scummy loaded questions in 936 ("why are you lying?").

Not loaded. You are lying. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're doing it on purpose rather than you're just being dumb.

Then why don't both you and Pasch back me up and you can get to your shitty love/hate argument tomorrow?

I'll take a look at Flubber and get back to you.

because pasch dying today creates a better non-toxic environment tomorrow

According to Om, scumhunting is toxic.

if you dont wanna get on pasch then get on titus
i wont accept any other lynch mate

Scumposting

Why would you choose to argue about whether self-hammering is scummy or not, when it's too late to form a read post-hammer?

I don't like being misrepped.

Not liking how Pasch is promoting giving drama whores an audience. That said, I don't think it's alignment indicative as much as it is a difference of opinion.

I also don't like people trying to avoid scrutiny. That's a number one scumtell to me.

[Paschendale]

On the subject of Flubber, what the heck is with his votes? Dino for no reason, but apparently he meant Ghost? And then votes me but tries to divest himself of responsibility for that vote in the same post. Yeah, I see duplicity there. And most of his posts are pretty fluffy.

Besides the votes, what stands out the most to you, TN?

[Paschendale]

Let's vote Eye. Pasch is a counterwagon to obvscum Eye.

Pasch, Om being stubborn is not scumposting.

Town Om doesn't act like that, and I'm still waiting on an actual case against Eye. Maybe you'll provide one. Why do you think he's scum?

[Paschendale]

Four (and apparently Titus), look at the following posts and actually read them this time. If you're still confused, then I'll have to conclude that you're just lying or are illiterate. Hint: It's spelled out clearly in the second of these posts.

782
835
896
936

Titus vs Eye looks town vs town to me. It's more emotional and looks more like a simple argument than anyone really being duplicitous.

But seriously, this wagon on me is so full of willful ignorance and OMGUS that just makes me sad.

[Paschendale]

No it's not. Poor justification is poor justification regardless of whether a person is being read as scum or town.

That's funny, I've been talking about poor justification being suspicious for most of the day, but there's a wagon on me for it. What's going on here?

[Paschendale]

@Paschendale: Who is the scum on your wagon?

Ika and Om. We've been over this already. Four seems to be town, just dumb as a box of rocks.

I'll look for somwhere else to vote in a bit.

What do you think of the case on Midget? I was planning to examine that a bit before I had to spend all my time defending myself from stupidity and scum.

[Paschendale]

It's also not like any of you, including the cult leader, gave a decent explanation of those suspicions.

House, you're playing well so far this game. Care to sell this wagon to the rest of us?

[Paschendale]

I definitely see the paranoia from Eye. A lot of what he says involves asking for reassurance or agreement from everyone else. At least with regard to his role. On that subject, I think it's very interesting that no one was burned (unless FourTrouble was and the mod isn't differentiating kill types - otherwise I assume he was the regular night kill). Eye should be rather eager to reveal who he prevented from being burned or prevented from burning others, whichever his power does. If Eye were a 3P killer, I don't think he'd be shy about using his power, and no one counteclaimed him as an "extinguisher" or anything like that, so I don't think that he's an arsonist. If he's a 3P, then there probably is no arsonist and he'd be a regular SK. But again, only the one kill last night. It's a bit perplexing.

But I generally agree about the seeming not to be on anyone's side and trying to look like he is. He doesn't seem to have an overall goal (scumhunting, coordinating with allies, etc), and seems to just be trying to float along. It's definitely food for thought.

I seriously doubt that Om or Midget put much thought into their votes, though. I'm really not liking how eagerly they hurled themselves onto this wagon, without reasons, and when asked Om refused to give any. I distrust any wagon she's in favor of at this point.

[Paschendale]

But there is firefighter, which is what that role is normally called. I'm not really sure what to make of the claim. If there's an arson in the game, then Eye is probably telling the truth. If he's lying, then there probably is no arson and he's just a regular SK trying to throw us off the trail. However, since this game is "non-normal", might roles be renamed? Wouldn't a fake claim be better researched and use the normal name?

Either way, I think the paranoid behavior and looking to go along with everyone else is a much better case than the weird claim.

[Paschendale]

I'm not liking the sudden momentum of this wagon even if I'm not liking eyestott's play this game.

TN expresses doubt over the wagon. This would be a great time to give good reasons why the wagon is good.

its not like any of us haven't mentioned suspicion on eye before

Om, who is literate and not retarded, reads this and chooses not to do that, but instead to say that simply having suspected Eye in the past is sufficient grounds to vote for him now.

This kind of crap is why I don't trust you, Om. You make noise instead of helping, and don't actually help us make the right choices.

[Paschendale]

give me a fucking reason not to pursue eye instead of attacking literally every single thing i do because chainsawing literally everyone i attack and having a problem with every single vote i do is a piece of shit and you should fucking know that
dont fucking attack eye and say you agree with the idea of him being scum and then say you dont trust the wagon because im on it

I don't need to give a reason why you shouldn't attack someone. You need to give reasons why you're attacking. Most of your pushes have lacked support or been disingenuous. You are not acting in a trustworthy manner. Even if we reach the same conclusion, you aren't getting there in a way that makes me think that you aren't lying. Get this through your head.

We really dodged a bullet there. What could the Belligerent modifier mean?

this was what really tipped me over the edge to get on your wagon
the first part just fucking reeks like fake concern
also your whole play has been sketch as heck especially in ur interactions with yours truly
i have zero trust in you so it's basically a matter of what tips the iceberg and the quote is what did it

And then this? Seriously? Also nice job of deflecting. You cite this example, but then say that you already had this conclusion. So this isn't what makes you think he's scum. You already thought that, but won't say why, other than "sketch as heck", which is certainly an apt description of what you've done so far.

This is why I'm reluctant about wagons that Om is on. She looks a lot like scum trying to push mislynches.

But there is firefighter, which is what that role is normally called.

Precisely. But he didn't know that, because he isn't one.

It's possible. This is still the weakest part of the argument for me.

-------------

Hey Eye, your defense was almost entirely about your claim and your opening to the game. How about you address what I said?

[Paschendale]

at this point im not looking for towncred for leverage over pasch
im just looking for snarky comments to make me feel better about myself because he's being terrible at the game

Yes, we all know that you're not trying to help town win. You've made it extremely clear. All you want to do is whine at me because I call you out on your bullshit. And this apparently makes me "terrible" because I don't just believe you on principle.

I can't remember who said this, but I didn't jump on the eye wagon, I decided to vote him in the night phase.

Okay, assuming that this unprovable assertion to distance yourself from your vote is true... why did you decide to cast this vote?

I targeted myself. I figured that, if there is an arsonist, I would be no. 1 on their hit list. I dont really have an overall goal right now, as I'm a late game player. I'm sub-par in the first few days, but i become useful after a massclaim.

Why exactly did you think you'd be such a target? Who would want to kill you? If you're town, scum wants to keep you alive to be a mislynch today, and 3P would want to kill strategically. Who are you a threat to? If you're scum, you know that you won't be killed, and if you're 3P, you'd want to be defensive. What's your role really? Because it's clearly not what you're claiming.

Where have I asked for reassurance? I'm not saying I havent, but i'm just asking so I dont misinterpret what you're talking about.

I don't believe your excuses for 405, 521, 799, or 978. Your posts there were wishy washy and not taking a stand. And you gave, as I said, excuses about how you weren't really trying. Town should be trying. Town should be taking this seriously and looking for scum. Why aren't you?

[Paschendale]

get on the eye wagon instead of pussying around it

What!? Being thoughtful about my votes and considering them!? I'm so bad!

Seriously Om, shut the hell up. You have nothing useful to say.

actually
no daystart pm
so i guess i can be more lenient with pine right now

???? pretty damn sure I sent one.

Oh yeah, and what's with this lie, Om? There was a daystart PM. You're included in the recipient list. Why are you lying about this?

@Mod: Pine, however, is not on that list. He didn't get the PM.

Yeah, I checked and sent him another

----------------

House, it's not a bad case, though the parts about the role just leave me confused. I'm not prepared to second guess the setup.

Eye, I definitely want some more answers from you. And some substantive reads.

[Paschendale]

also pasch what do you fucking think you will gain from antagonizing me im not going to claim scum so you can fucking toot your horns because i am not scum full stop just get the fuck off my case

MTD, can you just confirm me so i can get oasch to fucking shut up

It would be even worse if you were confirmed not to be scum, because then you have no excuse for consistent anti-town play.

[Paschendale]

also pasch what do you fucking think you will gain from antagonizing me im not going to claim scum so you can fucking toot your horns because i am not scum full stop just get the fuck off my case

MTD, can you just confirm me so i can get oasch to fucking shut up

It would be even worse if you were confirmed not to be scum, because then you have no excuse for consistent anti-town play.

says the guy who defended the cult leader

You've been consistently anti-town, too. I wonder what kind of bizarre anti-town role you'll have when you flip.

[Paschendale]

I hate when people ask for quotes to back up an accusation. It's a soft OMGUS, because it forces the accuser to do a lot of work putting together a comprehensive case rather than dealing with the accusation itself, with the side benefit of being able to say "look, they can't prove it" if the accuser doesn't want to spend an hour or so searching archives and editing text blocks.

This is not a court of law, where you're innocent until comprehensively proven guilty. This is mob justice, where the onus of proof is on the accused

Vote ika

See, that's not what's going on here. What's actually happening is that I discussed it at length before, and Ika knows that.

[Paschendale]

I just came off a 36 hour shift and I want comfort food, some good lovin', and maybe some Skyrim

I'll get to this tomorrow

Also House may be scum. Just saying that that was a pretty hard chainsaw right there

No it wasn't. You were wrong.

[Paschendale]

VOTE: Eyestott

You're damn right it looks like you're trying to get out of the discussion. But consider me not assured.

[Paschendale]

He wasn't first priority yesterday, now he is (at least in my eyes).

See, this is the part that confuses me. You mean he wasn't your first priority, as in your strongest scumread? Or he wasn't some kind of group priority, which sounds like scum agreeing to push a wagon together? Town shouldn't be pre-agreeing on lynches before discussing them. Eye is doing a really poor job of defending against his accusers, and of contributing useful reads to the discussion, but it's things like this that make me worry that he's just getting railroaded.

[Paschendale]

What the heck does a Richard Dawkins do? Does it evolve people?

[Paschendale]

Oh, that's clever. I like that.

[Paschendale]

It's not bad reasoning. Letting town tear each other up is a time-honed tradition. Keeping quiet also means that none of us are going to start questioning the validity of his vote on Eye... cuz he never cast one, and never really said anything about Eye at all.

I'm still not liking Ika, and his hammer and Eye's reaction made it look kinda bussy. Ika still warrants a lot of scrutiny.

[Paschendale]

I don't care what you do, Ika, except contribute to scumhunting. And that is something you have yet to do. And how exactly was I wrong on Eye? I wasn't 100% sure he was scum, but I certainly leaned that way. You, meanwhile, didn't add anything to that wagon except a quickhammer. I even dispelled the main argument that Eye was a third party. Likewise I was right about Titus not being on a scumteam. And about House being town. So, the only person's alignment I've gotten actually wrong so far is Om's, and she was doing everything in her power to play like scum.

So no, I've mostly been right so far in my reads. How about you, Ika? Oh wait, you've barely had any reads. In fact, other than pushing a policy lynch on Titus, and defending Om from me, you haven't really done much of anything. Oh, and make some really weak OMGUS attacks at me.

You know, if anyone right now is playing like they're third party (like, say, that arsonist that Eye was around to counter), it's Ika. He made one alliance, his only strong case was a policy lynch, and his one main target besides that was an OMGUS. Ika is not looking for scum, because he knows that he has to kill everyone else to win. Ika is trying to keep the scum from being afraid of him and town from suspecting him, and that's it. He's our arsonist.

VOTE: Ika

[Paschendale]

Tn is almost certainly town. Ghost and flubber probs are as well. I think that an ika-pasch-mtd lynch is a good idea.

I'd definitely like to hear the reasons for those townreads, since I disagree with two of them. And two of those scum reads.

[Paschendale]

Those are not very compelling reasons and they sound like bullshit excuses. You won't back up your read on TN (buddies?), you have only a meta read on Flubber (which no one else has any reason to trust you about), you handwave a read on Ghostlin by presuming he was towny on day 1 (which you don't justify). And you apparently have no actual reasons to support your scumreads.

Yeah, that's pretty suspicious, Midget. But at least you're voting for your one good read. Keep that up.

[Paschendale]

Well, now that we know your read sucked, what does your new analysis tell you?

[Paschendale]

Ghostlin totally skipped one day and is poised to skip another without posting anything what-so-ever. Why post when such a blatant antitown action is just as blatantly ignored?

Totally legit, but Ghostlin's actual contributions have been okay most of the time, I think. Why not join the Ika wagon? Ghostlin can go tomorrow.

Alternately, he hasn't posted in 20 days. Maybe it's time for a prod?

[Paschendale]

Anyone you're thinking of besides Ghostlin, then?

[Paschendale]

I think it's either Eye attempting to distance himself from his partner or just merely WIFOM. It was weak as an attempt to implicate someone.

[Paschendale]

Why do you think he was? And by whom?

[Paschendale]

Well, we all know that I would prefer to lynch an active player who strongly reads scum for me than a lurker, but I think Ghost is a reasonable compromise if two more people won't vote to lynch Ika.

[Paschendale]

Why do you trust Pine?

[Paschendale]

Given the style of this game, I'm more inclined to believe the negative utility protector over a straight doctor. But at the same time, if Tn really has the power he claims, then his flip would doom Pine. It's too risky a move at this stage. Meanwhile, a counterclaim from Pine against fake-claiming Tn makes a lot more sense. Claiming a less powerful role is usually a safer move for scum.

Midget, why are you scum if Tn is?

[Paschendale]

Pine fakeclaimed because if there are two scum they only need 1 mislynch to win. He wasn't expecting my claim. My claim makes no sense if im scum and tn is town. Unless someone messed with my result, I either lied or told the truth. If i'm lying jm probably scum with tn.

Ah, right. Your cop results.

Yeah, with the weirdness of the roles in this game, the bulletproof vanilla thing makes more sense than a straight up doctor claim. I think Pine is far more likely lying. I don't get the tactical reason for Pine to claim like that, though.

[Paschendale]

I had no plans to vote Tn from Flubber's comment. I was suspicious of Flubber from it, but not really Tn. Still waiting on an answer from Flubber, too.

Could this be a move by Flubber to implicate an innocent Tn, you think? But then we get to the claims, and it doesn't seem likely to have 2 protective roles in this game, since there are so few kills. And I just don't find Pine's claim as plausible as Tn's. But I don't get the reason for Pine to fake claim as scum.

Midget, you're making my head spin.

Except... Tn, why the fuck would you vanillize Ghostlin, whose ability was claimed and actually useful, but not useful enough to make him a likely target for scum?

[Paschendale]

Some more prods might be in order.

[Paschendale]

Tn claims protective and protects me, if I die he didn't protect me.

Or there's a strongman, or a roleblocker. How do you know that scum don't have those powers?

[Paschendale]

Have you got a a better idea?

I think we should stop worrying about what we'll do tonight and worry about what we'll do today. I also don't see why you think that, with you announcing your plan, scum won't either use it to frame someone or just kill someone else. There is no possible chance of the positive outcome you want.

Let's talk about who we should lynch.

[Paschendale]

Should the mod get a prod, too?

[Paschendale]

Yeah, still not seeing any reason why Ika is town. The above reaction is complete bullshit.

What I want to know is, what the hell did Tn do? And why did you challenge the scum to kill Pine like that, while outing him, and then let him die? Was your whole claim just a lie?

[Paschendale]

i didn't protect him, obviously.

And you elected not to do that... why?

[Paschendale]

I think these results are sufficiently screwed up to consider Tn a suspect. Why the heck do you believe Ika? What has he done all game to help us find scum?

[Paschendale]

[Paschendale]

Pasch is town.

Uhm, explain this please? Not seeing how anything that happened recently clears him.

Maybe my play over four days makes it pretty clear what my alignment is. Why the heck would you think I'm not town?

[Paschendale]

This leaves flubber, mtd and ghost.

Of these three, I definitely lean towards Flubber. His votes are just going along with people. His vote on Eye looked opportunistic and bussy as hell. His "don't ask me why" bit raised a lot of red flags, too. And while Tn may look stupid, he doesn't look scummy.

VOTE: Flubber

[Paschendale]

And maybe a force replace for Ghostlin? Or are they the same person? I don't know many people's alts.

[Paschendale]

Wow... enormous brain fart... FourTrouble was killed night 1. I forgot who was even in this game at the start.

[Paschendale]

@Mod: Flubber is not voting for himself. I'm voting for him.

fixed

[Paschendale]

Any word on Ghostlin?

[Paschendale]

I've been saying that Ika is scum for days. Now you believe me? Let's finish this.

VOTE: Ika

[Paschendale]

So... 4 out of the 5 living players are voting for Ika. Looks like a lynch to me. A really quick one.

[Paschendale]

I'm a one-shot bulletproof. I don't know if my ability has been used up already.

[Paschendale]

I'm a one-shot bulletproof. I don't know if my ability has been used up already.

it was used last night

i already told you guys though that i was 3p lyncher who could not win so tis meh for me

You shot at me? How exactly did you shoot at me if you're a lyncher? Sounds like you've been lying with every single post. Well, now you're dead and we'll get the first actual bit of truth out of you the whole game.

[Paschendale]

Want to buy a flip, Sajak.

[Paschendale]

I really wanna know what all these weird roles do.

[Paschendale]

I like how there were so many red herrings. There were no fires to put out, no detectives to find MTD, and almost no one to shoot me. The setup worked out to be surprisingly vanilla since the cult stuff didn't get off the ground. Were blue and green separate teams?

[Paschendale]

By "phase", do you mean me?

[Paschendale]

I was not being a jester. Everything I said was true. Unfortunately, everyone automatically just assumes I'm lying all the time regardless of my alignment and nobody ever listens to me. This is going to be my last game here, because I'm tired of shouting at the wind.