Mini 1710: A Midnight Sun -Game Over-

[LicketyQuickety]

Just putting this here so that it is in the thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6981414

[LicketyQuickety]

I am assuming that upon death it will be either full reveal or no reveal unless there are other PR that are not stated in the link I gave since (I think) Red Devils and White Ghosts basically share a win con but do not know who each other are.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Vyse

I remember some people in this playlist.

Mod also confirmed for great taste in music.

Did you do a RNG for your vote this time?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Morning Sun
Now you can vote me for creating a wagon in RVS.

Wagons help us get out of RVS.
Fire approves of this vote.

OMG. says the person without a vote. (says the person without a vote)

[LicketyQuickety]

I told you, my plan is took sketchy. It will help me survive the nights.

WIFOM at its finest.

I consider extreme WIFOM as town to be anti-town fwiw.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well good evening folks.
VOTE: Morning Sun
This is Midnight Sun so they're obviously scum. Obviously.

My name is also spelt wrong on the list of people.

Evening all, lotta new faces. Happy to meet ya ^_^

Now that pleasantries are out of the way

VOTE: Firebringer

Hi fire!

Yo yo Blank Face, whats up?
Nice playing with you some more.

And howdy to you Klingoncelt.

Just putting this here so that it is in the thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6981414

VOTE: Morning Sun
Now you can vote me for creating a wagon in RVS.

These guys are probably town.

~Espeon

Awesome, looks like you read people much the same that I do. Hopefully I will be able to track your thought process if you are human.

[LicketyQuickety]

The one way I'm willing to see Morning Sun as scum is if they are just really newb. The reason I say this is because though it seems we both read people in a similar manor, I feel I probably am not as quick to make judgments about what someones alignment is because I know full well I have been dead wrong before. So either MS is not realizing that it is far too soon to have legit reads at this time or they are scum playing poorly and simply giving town reads for town cred. The other option is that they have developed their reading to a significant level higher than I have and thus are more confident in their reads, but I feel this is unlikely without knowing MS' background of of forum mafia. So I might as well ask. Morning Sun, how many games have you played? How many have you completed? how many have you won?

[LicketyQuickety]

Its not strong reads at all. Its just to get people to start talking about real stuff and out of randomness.

Reading RVS isnt scummy. Its null. Anyways, Im not a noob and neither is my partner. I want to feel better about Suzanne.

~Espeon

Woah, hang on, I never said it was scummy. Where is this coming from?

[LicketyQuickety]

The one way I'm willing to see Morning Sun as scum is if they are just really newb. The reason I say this is because though it seems we both read people in a similar manor,

I feel I probably am not as quick to make judgments about what someones alignment is because I know full well I have been dead wrong before. So either MS is not realizing that it is far too soon to have legit reads at this time or they are scum playing poorly and simply giving town reads for town cred. The other option is that they have developed their reading to a significant level higher than I have and thus are more confident in their reads, but I feel this is unlikely without knowing MS' background of of forum mafia. So I might as well ask. Morning Sun, how many games have you played? How many have you completed? how many have you won?

I can tell you right now you are being way too reactionary. Not enough to say you're town or scum, but its not a good play.

[LicketyQuickety]

How is it that reading RVS if I was new is scummy vs. if Im a pro its town?

The bolded seems unnecessary, dont you think?

This conversation is going no where.

Anyone else have something to add?

P-Edit X2: Suzune, it most certainly does have to do with how many games a player has one.

[LicketyQuickety]

How is it that reading RVS if I was new is scummy vs. if Im a pro its town?

The bolded seems unnecessary, dont you think?

This conversation is going no where.

Anyone else have something to add?

P-Edit X2: Suzune, it most certainly does have to do with how many games a player has won.

Ebwop

[LicketyQuickety]

P-Edit X2: Suzune, it most certainly does have to do with how many games a player has one.

I strongly disagree with you that pushing style and reading style relies on how many games you have won. That is neither here nor there though, when it comes to this game. Sweeping generalizations will hurt the town though.

I can make an argument out of it, but I wont because it doesn't help find scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

How is it that reading RVS if I was new is scummy vs. if Im a pro its town?

The bolded seems unnecessary, dont you think?

Because experienced players should not realistically be making reads so early in the game. If you want to do it for reactions that's one thing, but doing it in a way that you are relatively confident in your day one reads and being honest about it takes a really good player which usually comes with experience. I can expand on this and say there are players who get good solid reads day 1 and don't explain how/why they are getting those reads or even that they know who scum are but don't out right say it, but again, that takes a lot of experience playing or at the very least it takes a lot to pull off.

That's all I'm going to say about it unless people are really thinking this is an issue worth talking about.

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, good. Now I know its Salamence20 disagreeing with me so I'm not really as worried about it.

[LicketyQuickety]

How is it that reading RVS if I was new is scummy vs. if Im a pro its town?

The bolded seems unnecessary, dont you think?

Because experienced players should not realistically be making reads so early in the game.

Matsin and Titus to name a few do that early. They are pretty expierenced.

If you want to do it for reactions that's one thing, but doing it in a way that you are relatively confident in your day one reads and being honest about it takes a really good player which usually comes with experience.

Youre not Reading. I said they were thoughts, not confident 100% scumreads. I just like my vote there. What do you think of Suzanne and Elbrim?

I can expand on this and say there are players who get good solid reads day 1 and don't explain how/why they are getting those reads or even that they know who scum are but don't out right say it, but again, that takes a lot of experience playing or at the very least it takes a lot to pull off.

I got 3 and Gameplay has 2 years, I think that adds up to "alot"

That's all I'm going to say about it unless people are really thinking this is an issue worth talking about.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

For the record:

Espeon: Salamence20
Umbreon: Gameplay506

~Espeon

Suzune is going to be a hard read for me. Elbrim made polite conversation with me in the sign up thread so its null.

OK, so you are just posting your thoughts. That's fine. I just don't like when people are changing their reads every 5 min.

You combine experience is nothing to shake a stick at, but I'd say its like the cut off point where people have "a lot" of experience. One of the people I am talking about was in the championship game of 'mafia championships' and the other has close to 18 years experience.

Yeah, I'm trying to make it to not be an issue. Please drop it and I will.

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, good. Now I know its Salamence20 disagreeing with me so I'm not really as worried about it.

So what does this mean?

Also, in regards to your last post:

Why is Suzanne a hard read for you? When did I change my thoughts? And why would we drop it? Its a valid point and a valid arguement.

Suzanne talk to me. Do you have a town PM? Can you send me a cassette saying something? Because that would be cool.

~Espeon

I'm saying it makes sense that I played a game with you that I was not at my best and you would naturally want to argue with me about stuff because you have more experience/think of yourself as a better player than me. Does that make sense? Again, you will prolly contest this point but it is my perspective so I guess we will just have to duke it out for a while since you don't see it as a non-issue even though it prolly will not lead to a read any better than if we were not going to argue. Make sense?

Suzune is a hard read for me because they have a vastly different way of thinking than I do. I didn't say you did change your thoughts :/ (again why does this matter???) My point is I've seen people that are constantly "sharing their thoughts" and then they proceed to change their mind like you wouldn't believe because they just can't make up their mind about stuff. I am not implying that you are doing this or that you behave this way I am just saying I don't like it when people do this. My question to you is how is talking about this stuff making it any easier to get a read out of you and me for all the players in the game as opposed to if we weren't just squalling like little children? Do you even get my point here?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: BlankFace

Don't think I've played with him before.

BF lynch me day 1 in I think my first newbie game here. My playstyle didn't make sense to him to put it lightly.

On a completely different topic I think it might be useful for people to say who they have played with in the past from people in this game. I'll go first:

I've played with: BlankFace, Kling, Salamence20 in that order. All three will still prolly be hard for me to read to varying degrees. BF because he plays by the book and iirc has mostly a strait forward playstyle and its hard to see his personality come through from his posts. Kling will be a bit easier to read since iirc they are mostly truthful when they play. Salamence I don't really have a firm grip on the way they play yet so it will prolly be somewhat of a learning experience, but I am willing to give them credit as being a player who uses some more advanced tactics which will make them hard to read/follow.

[LicketyQuickety]

Morning Sun Espeon,

My internet is being horrible, so my fingers are crossed it will post this time

Yes, I have a town pm. However, I feel like it is a waste of a power to use cassettes this early in the game. It is my opinion that they are to be used for bigger events later in the game as much more important information could be passed. Also, it would do little more then remove one of my cassettes since the mafia also appear to have cassette tapes, passing anything to you is not alignment indicative.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I understand you have a vote on me, yet since it is day one I have plenty of time to redeem myself in your eyes and prove helpful.

Since its nightless, I doubt this is a problem. But I understand. Gameplay and I are still thinking about what to do with ours. I'm still not townreading you and I expect more out of you.

OK, but asking someone to send you a tape message is a little "wut?" to me. I mean either they are or they are not going to do that and if they do, even as scum they can pretty much make up anything. :/

I'm saying it makes sense that I played a game with you that I was not at my best and you would naturally want to argue with me about stuff because you have more experience/think of yourself as a better player than me.

I am in terms of experience but in that game I lynched the Friendly neighbor as town, so I wouldn't call me a beacon of town. That's not why I'm talking to you though.

Then why sir, are you talking to me? *monical*

Suzune is a hard read for me because they have a vastly different way of thinking than I do.

Just because you have different ways of playstyles shouldn't be a basis for hard reading. Then again, she hasn't done much so maybe you don't have much of a read anyways.

Maybe so maybe not, but do you realize the double meaning/ambiguous response here?

My point is I've seen people that are constantly "sharing their thoughts" and then they proceed to change their mind like you wouldn't believe because they just can't make up their mind about stuff.

That's not a scumtell IMO.

I never said it was.

My question to you is how is talking about this stuff making it any easier to get a read out of you and me for all the players in the game as opposed to if we weren't just squalling like little children? Do you even get my point here?

Because we get non RVS content. And that is optimal, especially in nightless.

~Espeon

You do understand that I have provided other topics of discussion to get out of RVS that you are not addressing correct?



free photo hosting

[LicketyQuickety]

@Lickety

Of the people playing in this game, I have played with quite a few. I was in a game with Marcrell (although I do not know if we played at the same time), I joined a game you had been in LicketyQuickety (however it was after you died), Klingoncelt, VysePresident, BlankFace, and grapes. I also familiar with Sala. However, I do not think I have much meta. Plus meta is not reliable since people can control how theirs is viewed or very simply I do not rely on it.

Oh right Marcrell, forgot that I played with him. I think you underestimate how difficult it is to change ones meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think you underestimate how difficult it is to change ones meta.

One need not change their meta, just make it so you interpret it differently. It is more common then you seem to think. I sometimes feel like we are on two different pages~

Out of curiosity what do you hope to gain by asking who we have played with? The information to me seems kind of irrelevant because our previous performances with each other do little to affect our current alignment. However, the positive yield is that we are all discussing.

People can change their behavior, but they cannot change who they are. Do you understand that?

[LicketyQuickety]

You also did not answer my question about what you hoped to obtain by asking for who has played with who? I am curious.

I answered both things through a single statement.

[LicketyQuickety]

I hope Morning Sun is town, I like playing with both heads, wouldn't want to go against them unless I have to.
Morning got any reads as of yet?

@Lickety I think I have played with nearly a third of the players here? Or am playing?
BlankFace, Klingoncelt, MorningSun, Elbirn, Empoleon Bellapatre (bella head).

Everyone else I don't believe I have played with, unless with their alts?

Just because I want to be careful of this, please be careful if you. Ring up anything about me based on the ongoing game. Not sure if you've encountered that rule or not.

@Suzune, Do you did Lickity's who's played with who question suspicious?

Stop the tape, I don't remember that this is the way you operate. If you could be a little less confusing that would be great. I guess I'm starting to see why that guy lynched you in the first place. So again if you could just slow you weird wording down I don't think anyone is going to have a cow I think it would be much better for us all in the end. Thanks.

[LicketyQuickety]

Thats a pretty underwhelming group of posts all grouped together and such. Why not do something crazy to get the game going like Fire?

[LicketyQuickety]

soo

I recall blankface having more of a stick up his ass as town. But I'm gonna keep him at null, especially until I see some real content. Might just have gotten a few more games under his belt or something.

Licky is more meh than anything. Because a couple of his posts were

alright

. I don't like the interaction with morning sun all that much, particularly when he asked them how much mafia they've played. Because underlined it felt like he could of been afraid to confront them on their reads depending on if they were experienced. And wanted to discredit them if they weren't.

Suzune feels kinda town. I don't really like all the energy she spent in debating lickety about meta or whatever instead of progressing the game forward more optimally. But then again we aren't at the point where everyone is comfortable giving reads and things of that nature(it's relatively early) and it strikes me a bit like town trying to become engaged and help move us forward anyway they know how.

Morning sun is trickier. I like the espeon head for giving us a bit of a nudge out of RVS. But the couple umbreon posts were bad, though. Especially quoting vyse's post and

asking

if it was a scumslip, felt like testing the waters to me. It's additionally bad because I'm pretty sure it's an inside thing between him and blankface, which would be easy to gather if you're looking at context. Instead of possibly just scanning for easy things to point to. Want to see more of them.

Firebringer could be town. I like his dgaf attitude so far.

Elbrin's early couple of posts were hard to get a feel for. But his recent contributions and the suzune vote in particular felt spontaneous and makes me wanna lean town there.

Not that strong of an opinion on anyone else yet.

You wont get points for saying I'm "meh".

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: grapes

[LicketyQuickety]

Thats a pretty underwhelming group of posts all grouped together and such. Why not do something crazy to get the game going like Fire?

Well they're only grouped together because the thread happens to be dead, so. /shrug

Except that you were catching up knowing you would have posts grouped together, so there's that.

[LicketyQuickety]

@BF,

[LicketyQuickety]

You wont get points for saying I'm "meh".

lol

I don't think you fully understand what I am saying here. All your reads, both on an individual basis and taken as a group seem like you are telling people what they want to hear.

[LicketyQuickety]

*Deleted comment*
P-Edit: Fire knows what he's doing it seems.

P-Edit

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think you fully understand what I am saying here. All your reads, both on an individual basis and taken as a group seem like you are telling people what they want to hear.

nah im loling because i

1)don't care about getting any points from you
2)because you're quite literally the epitome of 'meh' with most of your posts, so it's a very justified read imo

And a very meh read from you as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'll just leave this right here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6967776

[LicketyQuickety]

Pressure the players who have yet to speak, for t hey are the ones who hide the most.
VOTE: Penguin alien

Speak now, or forever be tunneled!

It doesn't work! I don't believe you! *cries*

This feels like what I remember of town grapes. Unapologetic in his reads and stances.

@Lickety; that post was almost literally the first thing I did in the morning. Autocorrect on phones sucks. I am also not playing exactly the same way I did in our first game together, as grapes pointed out. My whole try hard town routine is too exhausting and it was a major factor in me mislynching you. I'm slowing my roll a bit, feeling things out a bit more, trying to be less of a massive dick when I do post.

@Fire, didn't ask for a read on me. Why bother telling me I'm null? Just wanted to reinforce the ongoing games rule to be safe.

You have no idea how much I hate phones at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

I updated my wiki last night so you can all see what a terrible player I am. Cheers.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi,

I don't sheep people, and by that I mean anyone.

Please leave a message after the beep.

[LicketyQuickety]

You wont get points for saying I'm "meh".

lol

I don't think you fully understand what I am saying here. All your reads, both on an individual basis and taken as a group seem like you are telling people what they want to hear.

I dont want to hear Suzanne being read as town. Because she hasnt done anything townish.

~Espeon

Had to reread the thread to see what this was about. This is scketch in my book. I had already stated earlier in the thread that the White Ghost and Red Devils likely do not know who each other are. Pure speculation of course, but it

is

what I thought at the time. The fact that you are so quick to make a connection between myself and Suzune for voting the same person has flaws like you wouldn't believe.

First off, How do you know that Suzune is not voting grapes as a distancing tactic for early in the game. Secondly you are representing a pretty strong scum read on Suzune this early in the game (and by association myself) for thinking grapes is town because Suzune is voting for grapes because it seems you are assuming that I am voting "with" Suzune and iirc I haven't made a read on Suzune one way or another in any way at all and in fact said I thought they would be a "hard" read for me. When I say a hard read for me what I mean is that they will either be a very difficult read for me and/or a very sure read for me and I left it that way. Lastly, do you really think given the way that you have seen me play that I would follow around my scumbuddie like a lost puppy? Ah, no. I play my own game almost always as both scum and town (and 3p for that matter as well). Call me paranoid, but I am the type of player who is prolly overly conscious of being tied to anyone, its just how I play. Go ahead and read my Newbie 1612/Newbie 1613 games and you will see exactly what I am talking about. Shouldn't be that long of a read I don't think since I was lynched day 1.

P-Edit: Who is this she you speak of?

Yeah, it

looks

like I got ruffled, but there was some reasoning behind it too. I was not posting those comments simply because I was agitated, I legit think that grapes came across as scummy. He didn't post anything to shake things up at all in the slightest and was ultra safe in what they were doing and that is what I am reading as scummy. It was the supreme lack of controversy and seeming to want to appease combine with the fact that everything he said would be way too easy to fake as scum. On top of that he tried to take credit for getting things going which is something that even if he is human is just not accurate since his contribution is something I found very lacking.

The TL:DR read of mine on grapes is that he is playing a little too cautious like he has something to lose.

P-Edit

[LicketyQuickety]

Had to reread the thread to see what this was about. This is scketch in my book. I had already stated earlier in the thread that the White Ghost and Red Devils likely do not know who each other are. Pure speculation of course, but it

is

what I thought at the time. The fact that you are so quick to make a connection between myself and Suzune for voting the same person has flaws like you wouldn't believe.

First off, How do you know that Suzune is not voting grapes as a distancing tactic for early in the game. Secondly you are representing a pretty strong scum read on Suzune this early in the game (and by association myself) for thinking grapes is town because Suzune is voting for grapes because it seems you are assuming that I am voting "with" Suzune and iirc I haven't made a read on Suzune one way or another in any way at all and in fact said I thought they would be a "hard" read for me. When I say a hard read for me what I mean is that they will either be a very difficult read for me and/or a very sure read for me and I left it that way. Lastly, do you really think given the way that you have seen me play that I would follow around my scumbuddie like a lost puppy? Ah, no. I play my own game almost always as both scum and town (and 3p for that matter as well). Call me paranoid, but I am the type of player who is prolly overly conscious of being tied to anyone, its just how I play. Go ahead and read my Newbie 1612/Newbie 1613 games and you will see exactly what I am talking about. Shouldn't be that long of a read I don't think since I was lynched day 1.

So like

I'm reading the posts in question

And I'm really confused because none of this is based on anything that was said.

Yeah, its implied. Morning Sun is going to change their read on me, watch.

Pressure the players who have yet to speak, for t hey are the ones who hide the most.
VOTE: Penguin alien

Speak now, or forever be tunneled!

It doesn't work! I don't believe you! *cries*

What is this?
Lickety, what's your relationship with penguin?

Never played with them. Just found out they exist from this game.

My post was directed at Fire and had nothing to do with Penguin whatsoever.

[LicketyQuickety]

Im not scumreading LQ.

Im going to call him a VI soon, but Im not scumreading him

And I'll wear that title like a badge of honor. As long as I'm getting town read, if I stay in the game long enough my reads are going to make sense.

[LicketyQuickety]

@post 116

1. I don't see how any of that is implied, and I don't like you making things up in order to put someone else in the wrong

Why would Morning Sun not want people (inferring me) to give Suzune a town read? Why would Morning Sun even say they didn't want me giving Suzune a townread? If I was Morning Sun and I was town I would gladly want a newb scum to give their teammate an early town read with no basis behind it. Do you see what I'm saying now?

2. Okay, so...you're crying over firebringer pressuring lurkers and you know what this point is dumb and I'm not even going to bother, I thought there could have been something with a penguin association but no

I can say honestly I have no idea why people are voting for lurkers this early in the game. Voting for lurkers this early in the game is going to amount to jack squat. Day 2 I can see where it could start getting necessary, but not within the first 24 hours of the game starting.

[LicketyQuickety]

1. the place where I come from we let people make up their own minds on what reads they want. Its a bit barbaric if you ask me to threaten people if they don't have the same reads you you. I don't really play that way anyways. I'm going to read people how I'm going to read them and that's all there is to it.

Also, if your going to tell me what I'm saying is not implied then why are you saying that Morning Sun is scumreading Suzune when they haven't out right said that?

2. Gooooood. Gooooooooooood. Let the hate flow through you.

VOTE: grapes

This is really really bad. Grapes is town here for now. Those posts are relevant and this vote is OMGUS.

Also, gameplay is right, Suzanne hasnt done much to establish a town read for that slot and Id think of Suzanne to be one of those players who get townread easily. Elbirm on the other hand is town, that was some nice catch up and voting suzanne is the cherry on top.

Also, what do you make of this post?

I'm willing to give BF a town read at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

My scumdar says Suzanne and Elbirm for scum at the moment.

VOTE: Suzanne

Yes I know, she hasnt posted much, but I just get an odd feeling for it. Something about the way Im reading her 2 posts.

Elbirms post about warning firebringer about nightless seems faketownie compared to how LQ did it. Thats where Im going with it.

~Espeon

Odd, pretty sure I called Suzzne scum. Pretty sure I havent changed that.

So you're actually making a concrete stance on Suzune this early in the game. Alright. I mean, that's a pretty early post, but meh, if you think there is really something there do what you do.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok so:
Gonna call Lick town
Elb looks fake, I don't like it
Firebringer is off ( I know I scumread you always, sorry bae :3) .. tho now he really is tooo much

Suzune strikes me as something.. not sure what tho

Anyway the last two posts together with this one are made by
~Umbreon

This post came after the vote post. JFYI

[LicketyQuickety]

How is it that reading RVS if I was new is scummy vs. if Im a pro its town?

The bolded seems unnecessary, dont you think?

Because experienced players should not realistically be making reads so early in the game.

Matsin and Titus to name a few do that early. They are pretty expierenced.

If you want to do it for reactions that's one thing, but doing it in a way that you are relatively confident in your day one reads and being honest about it takes a really good player which usually comes with experience.

Youre not Reading. I said they were thoughts, not confident 100% scumreads. I just like my vote there. What do you think of Suzanne and Elbrim?

I can expand on this and say there are players who get good solid reads day 1 and don't explain how/why they are getting those reads or even that they know who scum are but don't out right say it, but again, that takes a lot of experience playing or at the very least it takes a lot to pull off.

I got 3 and Gameplay has 2 years, I think that adds up to "alot"

That's all I'm going to say about it unless people are really thinking this is an issue worth talking about.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

For the record:

Espeon: Salamence20
Umbreon: Gameplay506

~Espeon

Oh, look! Old info.

I have one too:

Morning Sun Espeon,

My internet is being horrible, so my fingers are crossed it will post this time

Yes, I have a town pm. However, I feel like it is a waste of a power to use cassettes this early in the game. It is my opinion that they are to be used for bigger events later in the game as much more important information could be passed. Also, it would do little more then remove one of my cassettes since the mafia also appear to have cassette tapes, passing anything to you is not alignment indicative.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I understand you have a vote on me, yet since it is day one I have plenty of time to redeem myself in your eyes and prove helpful.

Since its nightless, I doubt this is a problem. But I understand. Gameplay and I are still thinking about what to do with ours. I'm still not townreading you and I expect more out of you.

OK, but asking someone to send you a tape message is a little "wut?" to me. I mean either they are or they are not going to do that and if they do, even as scum they can pretty much make up anything. :/

I'm saying it makes sense that I played a game with you that I was not at my best and you would naturally want to argue with me about stuff because you have more experience/think of yourself as a better player than me.

I am in terms of experience but in that game I lynched the Friendly neighbor as town, so I wouldn't call me a beacon of town. That's not why I'm talking to you though.

Then why sir, are you talking to me? *monical*

Suzune is a hard read for me because they have a vastly different way of thinking than I do.

Just because you have different ways of playstyles shouldn't be a basis for hard reading. Then again, she hasn't done much so maybe you don't have much of a read anyways.

Maybe so maybe not, but do you realize the double meaning/ambiguous response here?

My point is I've seen people that are constantly "sharing their thoughts" and then they proceed to change their mind like you wouldn't believe because they just can't make up their mind about stuff.

That's not a scumtell IMO.

I never said it was.

My question to you is how is talking about this stuff making it any easier to get a read out of you and me for all the players in the game as opposed to if we weren't just squalling like little children? Do you even get my point here?

Because we get non RVS content. And that is optimal, especially in nightless.

~Espeon

You do understand that I have provided other topics of discussion to get out of RVS that you are not addressing correct?



free photo hosting

[LicketyQuickety]

Quick post for now. (I'm running to work almost literally now.)

LQ - Can you tell me how much Mafia you've played to date?

-I've played a lot with Penguin before, but it's been a while, and was on another site. I've recently played with Blankface, Suzune, Grapes as well.

Does no one look at wiki's anymore??? Check my wiki. On an aside with this, why is it that the newest players are really the only ones with an acceptable amount of info on their wiki???

I've completed 16 games and I'm currently in 4 including this one and have finished in another one that is not completed. I've played on 5 different sites. I also was in a mentor game where I was coaching a player and we won as mafia. Its not a lot of experience but its enough to where I don't feel like a complete newb at least.

[LicketyQuickety]

@post 123

1. Of course you're going to have your own reads. I don't think morning threatened you either. Bottom line is if I think someone is scum and you think that person is town, if I want them dead you're the kind of person I need to argue with to show my PoV. Mafia's a team game. You need to work with people to make things happen.

2. I'm not even mad and I'm soz if I appear that way. I get a lot of people telling me I sound pretentious or mean, I'm just talking man. And this point didn't have much meat to it and figured it could go away.

Anyway that post of morning sun was fine, I agree with the reads and what was said? What do you think of it?

Should I go back and quote exactly what Morning sun said regarding that I should not have a town read on Suzune? I agree that cooperation is good, but I also don't think that people should argue endlessly over a single read. Sometimes people are just not going to agree on reads and there's nothing you can do about that.

Fine you're not mad, great. I was making a joke and it flew right over your head.

For the record I have a

slight

scum read on Suzune, but I also am not just going to trust what Morning Sun and yourself have said. I am very stubborn with my reads. Trying to convince me that your read on Suzune and the reasoning that is behind it is solid is like trying to pull out a treestump with a bicycle; I don't let what people tell me about other people dictate what my read is on that person -I just don't. I had this slight scum read on Suzune a while ago and for my own freaking reasons (that I have not divulged for a reason), not someone elses. Sometimes I don't want people to know what my reads are and you and Morning Sun are pressuring me hard to read Suzune the same way you both do. Why? Sometimes I have a read and I can't make a case out of it so I don't push that read because it is a weak read that I don't know how to explain until further evidence comes up to incriminate them. And as far as I'm concerned I've brought up some good points on some people in this game and do you see me arguing with people that they need to read those people the same way I do even tho no one is saying boo about them (rhetorical question)?

[LicketyQuickety]

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, I am not a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

[LicketyQuickety]

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ you are clearly town because of the way you think. In my opinion, regardless of how different yours are then mine, you thought process rings town. I believe no mafia would get as defensive as you have about certain points because they would fear giving themselves away.

Your buddying me, stop, that doesn't work on me.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ you are clearly town because of the way you think. In my opinion, regardless of how different yours are then mine, you thought process rings town. I believe no mafia would get as defensive as you have about certain points because they would fear giving themselves away.

Your buddying me, stop, that doesn't work on me.

I have no reason to buddy you. The town would rather push against me and I can deal while I think. However, it is my observation that you are town. Just placing my opinion out there.

Well its about freaking time that people start reading me town every once in a while.

[LicketyQuickety]

And Suzune, you have plenty of reason to buddy me. What the hell is this? Here's another probable failed attempt at a joke: Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

[LicketyQuickety]

If I was town read by everyone, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Even as scum that worries me lol

You're so null to me its not even funny.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

Hes so far on a different wavelength that I want to ignore him forever.
~Espeon

Fine, its whateves. I still don't read you as town, but as long as you at least take my reads and votes I don't care what you think about the other stuff.

On a separate topic, Suzune has already given a Town read... me.

P-Edit: OMG ROFL

[LicketyQuickety]

Thats hilarious Lickey! You are null to me too

*Openly buddies Fire*

[LicketyQuickety]

I usually make these way later into the day phase, so I feel like there is very little to go on and with several people barely posting yet. It looks insubstantial to me...

Town

LQ- While I could not disagree with him more on things. His play style is very town and while I hate to relate back to meta readings, it is similar to the last time they were town. However, it is my fear that they will continue to push nonessential points and the town will get confused in the end.

slight Town

Empoleon Bellapatre – I have a good feeling about this player. Although I would like to see more about his personal opinions and stances on the game. Right now I would put him in the slightly town. post 142

Elbirn- Makes good points and analyzes the craziness good in posts 122 and 129. However, in my opinion he backs Morning quite a bit.

Morning Sun- Has an abrasive posting style that actually reminds me of someone else. While I dislike their needs to take control and to shove their opinions on everyone. I regret that it is a good tactical approach and probably townie…however, I remain kind of frustrated by them.

Null (good and bad equal out)

grapes- I know that grapes catchup was not marvelous, however, I like his reads list. Regardless of whether it was a pressure reads list or not, it is something to use to begin making claims and judgement.

Firebringer- I would put him slightly leaning scum but I cannot find anything that pushes it in that direction. All of their earlier posts are light and joking and he has somehow remained outside of all of the long discussion that have gone on. While this alone is not indicative of anything, the need to skirt the edge making me want to push him more in the future.

Slight scum

BlankFace- It makes me suspicious that he would admit to not playing his usual style, as it makes me wary of new tricks. Also that he is worried about the games rules of being safe. So a little more gut than evidence I am afraid.

Scum

Unsure

Marcrell- Not posting does not mean you are scum. But it is literally impossible to get a read on this with only one post.

ShadedMelee- In the same boat as Marcrell, with only one post, I have no opinions on them yet.

Klingoncelt- There is little more than a rvs vote and a question about hyrda.

penguin_alien- Is he playing?

VysePresident- Also does not have any strong posts one way or the other to date.

This read list sucks.

VOTE: Suzune

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads:

Empoleon Bellapatre: Null
Suzune: Null/Scummy
Elbrin: Don't like him sheeping Morning Sun, it could go either way
Macrell: Null, Duh
Morning Sun: Don't like how he went from having Suzune as Scum then didn't know what their read was then Scum again and is now really pushing the Suzune thing. Could go either way
Firebringer: I think he's a good player and knows what he is doing, but Null/Leaning Town
ShadedMelee: Leaning Scum
Klingoncelt: Need to see way more to get a read one way or another
Penguin_alien: (Seriously what kind of name is this???)
VysePresident: Has enthusiasm, but is just not active. Need to see more of him
Blank Face: Leaning Town
grapes: Leaning scum

P-Edit X2: I'm willing to give Suzune some Town cred for her last two responses because they scream genuine frustrated town to me.

Updated read changes:

Suzune: Null
Elbrin: Leaning Scum
Moring Sun: Null

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok I played nice because I owe you from our last game but youre seriously pissing me off either because youre seriously stupid or you are fucking naïve.

THIS IS A HYDRA. A HYDRA CONSISTS OF 2 PLAYERS. I AM ESPEON WHO THINKS SUZ IS SCUM. GAMEPLAY506 IS UMBREON WHO DOESNT HAVE A READ ON SUZ. THATS WHY ITS DIFFERENT. I ALREADY ANSWERED THIS 2 PAGES AGO. JUST FUCKING STOP.

~Espeon

Dude(s), chill, seriously. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know. The one thing you are changing here is that before you said both your reads were on the same page and now you're saying your reads are slightly different. I'm paying more attention to this game than you are giving me credit for.

[LicketyQuickety]

I wont be posting for a while, but usually when I stop posting after posting a lot threads die.

After a reread, I'm getting a more town read on Morning Sun, More town read on Suzune (a lot more), and and a fair bit more scum read on Elbrin.

VOTE: Elbrin

People I want to see post because there's not really much of an excuse:

Macrell: Does this guy ever actually play?
ShadedMelee: I'm leaning scum on you fwiw
Kling: to a lesser extent because I understand he is usually posting more later in the day/night
Penguin: Need to see something brah.
VysePresident: should be getting off work soon, want to see something in the next 2 hours
BlankFace: Want some questions asked by him to people or something
grapes: still reading him scum cuz he disapeared when people started looking at him

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

I need to re-read the thread so far, there are a couple things I'm just not getting...

In the meantime, LQ, I've previously played with you, Elbirn, Bellaphant, Espeonage, Firebringer, and Suzune. Is ShadedMelee also a hydra?

@Mod

- please list hydras in the page 1 playerlist. It would be very helpful.

there's only two hydras in this game. Bella Esp heads and sala Gameplay heads

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm legit disappointed that pretty much nothing happened in almost 6 hours. But yeah, called it, after I get done posting like mad the thread slows to a crawl.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, how did you go from your presumed strongest scum read being Suzune to changing your mind after a reread? You went to null from getting a recent frustrated vibe, but what exactly in the reread charge your mind that strongly?

OK, I'll tell you.. and it will give you some insight into how I read people.

People are thinking Suzune is scum because she is being nice. People think she is acting too nice and that there's no way it is genuine. After a reread and seeing her attitude in how she responds to pressure and conflict in general, especially rereading when myself and her debated theory/philosophy on meta/psyche is when I realized that she is either tricky beyond belief or she is just a nice person who likes playing mafia (ofc she could still be both, but that's not my point here). People don't often see "nice" people playing mafia. There's a whole lot of accusations and the whole thing mostly reeks of logical circle jerking which is something that most "nice" people are not really into. Suzune is the exception to this I believe. My guess is that she enjoys trying to figure out the game like a puzzle. Looking back on it now, it does not surprise me one bit that she was excited to play this game because it was nightless. Given all this I can really see how Morning Sun would think that Suzune would be easy to spot as Scum which is actually making me Townread Morning Sun for that reason. I'm also getting a scum read out of Elb from this interaction. It really looks like Elb is trying to take advantage of the fact that Suzune is coming across as "too nice" and since the excuse is there to push a bad read he is taking advantage of that. Also one thing not to be taken lightly is the dynamic between Morning Sun and Elb. Morning Sun had a scum read on Elb before Elb started to "just so happen" to have the same read on Suz as Morning Sun. Elb was definitely stronger in their stance against Suz which would make a ton of sense for Elb to do that as Scum. I see little Town motivation for Elb to force a read like that on me as Town. Also I'd like to point out that it was a sort of "soft" frustration that Suz had. She is a big girl and understands that sometimes things just don't go the way we want and she has a pretty mature outlook on things and doesn't pop a blood vessel every time something doesn't go her way.

That's what I got on Suzune and a bit on Morning Sun and Elb as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

You're not a town read because of your reads. You're a town read because I can't understand you so bad that you clearly must be town.

The fact that your thought process is so uniquely you, it feels real. You're not scum faking thoughts, you're town blabbering nonsense that only makes sense to you.

....I feel like that sounds mean but it's not supposed to >.> I moonlogic frequently, and I know I'm babbling bullshit that no one else can agree with when I do it.

Was that your Mafia Sum post? congrats Now die scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

FOR FUCKSAKE SUZANNE ISNT TOWN OR SCUM FOR BEING NICE LIKE WTF?

SUZANNE IS SCUM BECAUSE SHE IS LACKING IN PLAY HERE WHEN SHES USUALLY A QUICK TOWNREAD OF MINE.

NOW FUCKING STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP.

~Espeon

Its not all about you and your reads tho. I think your scum read on her is unjustified.

[LicketyQuickety]

Was that your Mafia Sum post? congrats Now die scum.

Riveting commentary.

I can do another rap for you like I did for BF if you prefer.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Morning Sun, I am not Town reading Suz for being nice, that would be stupid. I am basing my read on the fact that she had a very townie response when put under pressure. Like her, what I would interpret as townie reaction would really only win her townie points for people that read others like I do, and I'm just not buying that she would be doing that at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

I will be V/LA from tomorrow to Monday, I might get a chance to post on Monday and I may not.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Vyse, you have not posted in quite a while and have really said anything.

What are your thoughts on grapes?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Vyse, you have not posted in quite a while and haven't really said anything.

What are your thoughts on grapes?

Ebwop

[LicketyQuickety]

Who wants a cassette tape from me bitching about how LQ needs to shut the fuck up before I lose my shit and enforce policy?

~Espeon.

LQ's a chatty type, but he's learning.

He's dead quiet compared to is post levels when he first started playing here.

Or maybe he's Scum...

Kling, I am human. I have learned to not post as much because IDK how many people have told me that I need to learn to do that. I have learned that sometimes its better to wait and not give what I am observing as soon as I see it and allow things to develop. I'm still working on this, but I find it could be a really good strategy to wait to say something to see if it continues and then drop the bomb on scum. currently working on learning how to stay active and not bring up that one thing I notice that could be damming to scum right away. also, playing in more games at a time can help with this as well for me.

[LicketyQuickety]

The game has been going on for awhile time to give a basic reads list:
Town-
ME!
Elbirn
Morning Sun
Empoleon Bellapatre
grapes

Null-
Suzune
BlankFace
LicketyQuickety
penguin_alien
VysePresident

Scum-
ShadedMelee
Marcell

All of these are based on my gut! So please feel free to rip it apart and call it shit.

You know what? I'm not even going to try to get you to explain your reads. Such a thing would just create more WIFOM.

[LicketyQuickety]

Just an FYI, I'm a little busy for the next couple of days. ...

It's good to see you again too, Blankface, but I have another friend I've owed for a long time now.

VOTE: Penguin_Alien[/v ]

And so my plan to aggressively mislynch you begins.

I bet you'll never see my revenge coming.

...
Is this a slipp??!

I'm wondering the same thing.

Oh for pity's sake, Penguin is an old friend, and we were joking before the game.

Yeah, I can't believe you would be that dumb.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Lickety its best not to try to explore my mind, its a empty abyss that no one has managed to find any reason or logic too.

You know I laugh pretty much every time I read one of your posts. Keep posting if not for getting a read on you for the lols.

[LicketyQuickety]

Town:
Suzune - This is roughly the same way that she was playing in Mini 1667. Only one that I noticed that even included me in a reads list too, besides Lickity. But I'm not counting Lickity's read on me because I honestly don't think it's based on anything other than the want for me to be town.

Lickety - This is the way that LQ played town in our first game together. Takes a bit more effort to read into him and I might not agree where he's coming from all the time but this isn't what I would expect LQ scum to play like if I was in the game. 134 I like a lot for LQ town.

Morning Sun - I always end up town reading people who put an effort into moving out of RVS, 28 and the next few after were attempts at that. And it worked a bit, getting responses from LQ and Fire. Fire's response was kind of blah. Morning Sun's RVS analysis had little content and it was basically a "These people are town" without any explanation, which I'm totally okay with because it was supposed to get people to start questioning why and start a discussion beyond the RVS jokes, and Fire's response to it was "Great minds think alike". 31. Fire is also the first to mention the Human flavor rather than just saying town. Not sure how I feel about that.

Grapes - 82 is town af.

Fire - All of Fire's posts have felt genuine to me.

Null:
Vyse
Elbirin

Slight Scum:
Kling

Scum:
Marcell
Penguin

VOTE: Marcell

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

What about this do you not like? What about it feels wrong?

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

You're not a town read because of your reads. You're a town read because I can't understand you so bad that you clearly must be town.

The fact that your thought process is so uniquely you, it feels real. You're not scum faking thoughts, you're town blabbering nonsense that only makes sense to you.

....I feel like that sounds mean but it's not supposed to >.> I moonlogic frequently, and I know I'm babbling bullshit that no one else can agree with when I do it.

I don't agree. I think it leans scummier. It could go either way, pissed off town, or scum frustrated that people aren't going for it, but it feels more like scum anger.

Why am I a scum read fire?

I'd like to thank the mod for fixing my name when I mentioned it. You do good work.

Big ping. It feels off, how does LQ questioning a town read on himself feel like scum anger? Second it completely ignores what Elbirin actually said as to why he is townreading LQ.

Marcell's next two posts are a pretty empty vote on Morning Sun and fluff. Not feeling good about this slot.

This looks like a normal Town!BF post to me. His lack of real involvement up until this point and my reading it as Town is a bit weird. I've seen BF go almost completely quiet for a large chunk of the game as town and that is what I was going off of. There was just not enough going on in the thread for him to get involved. I would think BF would try and get stuff going more as Scum, both for the opportunity to get some town cred for getting things started and cast some suspicion on people early and/or get town on the wrong track so they would have to spend some amount of time getting things the way they should be. BF is fully capable of making people look guilty as either alignment and the fact that he has mostly taken a hands off approach seems to indicate to me that he is town because I think he would just be doing more as Scum.

M'kay, I'm going to stick with first summing up my first impressions for now, and start working in from there.

---

Town - LQ(+), Fire(?), Bellaparte

NOTES:

LQ

just has a very straightforward, clear thought process for me to follow, and it's actually a little baffling to me that the general consensus seems to be the opposite, even among the other people who think he's Town. I'm not fully on the same page as him or anything, but it's not that hard and there's some good stuff mixed in there.

Fire

is really just meh, but I'm okay with the slightly careless attitude for now.

Empoleon Bellaparte

leans Town for me right now, mostly because they have a fairly clear thought process & flow to their style. Basically, it amounts to me not seeing an 'intentionality' or positioning behind their posts, and I'm okay with how they're engaging so far.

---

Null - Suzune(+), Penguin, Morning Sun(+-? ), Marcrell, Grapes, BF

NOTES

Suzune

is null because all the tonal issues & stuff are things I'm familiar with from her, and I think it's just part of her natural style. I like more about her engagement so far than I dislike, but there's not really enough for me to work with confidently yet.

Penguin

is just meh so far. 165 isn't terrible, but it's pushing only in directions I don't care much about, which bugs me a little. 245 Doesn't really change much either.

Morning Sun

is weird for me, because on the one hand, I like the aggressiveness to their style and focus I'm okay with. It's not obvtown by any stretch, but it's decent, and seems to flow so far. On the other, I disagree with almost everything Salamance is saying, and his pushes/Townreads all make me a little uncomfortable. I'm also irked about that 'scumslip' posts.

Marcrell

has lots of aggressiveness, and I can kinda, sorta get him. I'm probably going to need to read him a couple times before I have anything actually useful to put here.

Grapes

is a bit of a back & forth for me. I didn't like his catch up stuff much in 90, but I'm okay with 256.

Blankface

is just meh so far. I don't feel like I have much to work with now, given that his normal style pings me like crazy.

---

Mildly Scummy - Elbirn(-), Klingon(?), ShadedMelee(?)

Elbirin

is largely a matter of gut for me at this point, but I feel like he's moving with the flow of the game. There's nothing special in what he's saying, and it's baffling to me how much credit some people are giving him for his catchup posts. It feels more like someone trying to seem Town more than an actual independent thought process.

Klingon

is just meh. I don't actually care about the whole "She's saying Human repeatedly thing" in the least. I'm irked at her for adding to the "Vyse scumslipped" thing, which is why she's down here, but I don't feel particularly strongly about this one. I do want to see reads & stuff before I let it go, though.

ShadedMelee

- I thought about putting him in with the Nulls, but I don't really care for any of his posts so far. I'd like to see the reads & stuff he's promising.

VOTE: Elbirn

Feeling this the most right now.

---

LYNCH-IT-WITH-FIRE-SCUM!!!Eleven!! - Nobody yet.

---

Also, here's a spoilered list of my train of thought notes & stuff I was writing before deciding to sum it up in a readslist.

Spoiler: Train of thought notes

-I'm having a tricky time connecting with this game. It's weird jumping back & forth from the meta of my homesite to here.

-Going to stick with first impressions for now, while I'm working my way into the game.

-Don't like Grapes #82 all that much. Mostly, I'm in disagreement with a large number of the directions he's pushing.

-LQ is a little weird, but okay so far. Love his #92, actually. (FutureVyse Note - Grapes did a little better in #256. I'm seeing a bit more thought emerging, and want to watch it play out. We'll call him Null for now.)

-Penguin's #165 is meh so far. I kinda want to see it play out a little more before offering my thoughts, but it's mostly just pushing in directions I don't feel great about.

-#167 Re: Suzune - That's sort of how I see Suzune, with the caveat that I can play a pretty nice & friendly game as well, and because it comes from my basic personality, I can do it as either alignment. This basically amounts to a 'yes, but Null'. I don't agree with the reasons being presented against Suzune to date, but I have yet to form a strong opinion on her.

-I don't like the dismissive tone in #168. Not that I believe it's mean per se, but I don't like the way you're shooting down LQ. It feels like you're adding a bit of peer pressure here, for lack of a better term. (I'm tired, but you get what I mean, I hope.)

-I see Sala's #171, and raise it a yawn. But seriously, humor aside, I'm just not seeing it.

-On a side note, it's weird to me how Sala thinks Suzune would be an obvTown player or a difficult lynch, because my impression was very much the opposite.

-#207 This is such a common thing in the meta anymore, I'm not giving it any points.

-#258 Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I actually find it harder to engage when I'm Town than when I'm scum. With scum, I have a huge library of things TownVyse has thought before, because I'm a very meticulous, slow-paced Townie usually, and tend to run through a heck of a lot of theories & ideas before I post. It's all ready made for me to use as scum. For that same reason, I have a little more trouble engaging early as Town. (I've been working on that recently, with some success, but there's been a lot keeping me from getting attached to this game.)

Every once in a while there is a persons who seems to understand me, and I'm usually going to give them a town read because of it. Could he be saying all this stuff about me just to buddy me? Sure, but the things is, it should be pretty easy to observer that I'm not someone who's really all that good at influencing the game so I just as soon assume that when that happens that it is town doing it because there wouldn't really be much benefit to do this as scum. Basically, if people are reading me like they usually do and saying I am not making any sense, why would scum be like "wait a minute, this guy actually makes sense, how 'bout we hear him out?" Its happened about three times. One of those times BF may or may not remember that it was Fro99er in my first newbie game that basically said "LQ... makes sense." Another time is when I was playing on my home site and there was a person who seemed to understand how I play and thought much the same things that Vyse wrote.


There are some things I like about this post. He doesn't have the exact same reads that everyone else is giving. He explains his reads in a way that actually makes sense. He explains his notes, which is a huge plus. While yes, he can make that up as scum, I just don't buy that he would be doing that in the game yet.

I do have some questions for you though Vyse.

1) Do you use PoE when reading people at all? I guess I'm really asking how you read people in general.
2) If you had to lynch someone right now who would it be? I would also like to know along with this if you lynch for information or do you only lynch your scum reads?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

To being bad enough to live to day 2!

My main concern is that you are just not putting in enough effort into you game(s). I'll be the first to tell you I think my game is sub-par at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi, Suzie your time is better spent on someone not named fire for the moment.

That said, I have nothing much to say as more people should be on Marcell or Shaded

~Espeon

That's weird, cuz I feel like Fire has just started to actually contribute content.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

Well, you're obviously not having trouble getting reads because you just gave some townreads so...?

The lack of scumreads is a bit concerning. Feels like trying to find friends more than find scum.

Oh I'm trying to find Scum. The players I know aren't doing anything Scummy and as far as I can tell the ones I don't know aren't either. I think this is one of those Day1s where someone has to jump up and down waving flags and posting in all caps before I guess that they might not be 100% Town.

Really? Cuz I don't see any evidence of that as of yet.

Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.

And this is funny coming from someone not voting anyone.

Why do I have to vote for someone before correcting those that vote for me?

You are not very logical.

Actually I totally think grapes has a point here. The fact that you brushed it off as a non-issue looks really scummy to me.

All in all I think Kling is playing pretty anti-town this game. If it was someone else I prolly wouldn't think too much of it, but I know Kling knows better. For that reason

VOTE: Kling

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm going to reread the thread now. I am really concerned that people are not active in this game. It seems to be a trend for scum to just sit on the sidelines lately. Hopefully I'll have something to comment on by the time I'm done rereading the thread.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: lickity

Too many words without a vote.

-bella

Hi FB, Kling, Marc

Hi.

You're a hydra, right?

Way to ease into it like a proscum would do.

Morning Sun Espeon,

My internet is being horrible, so my fingers are crossed it will post this time

Yes, I have a town pm. However, I feel like it is a waste of a power to use cassettes this early in the game. It is my opinion that they are to be used for bigger events later in the game as much more important information could be passed. Also, it would do little more then remove one of my cassettes since the mafia also appear to have cassette tapes, passing anything to you is not alignment indicative.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I understand you have a vote on me, yet since it is day one I have plenty of time to redeem myself in your eyes and prove helpful.

Since its nightless, I doubt this is a problem. But I understand. Gameplay and I are still thinking about what to do with ours. I'm still not townreading you and I expect more out of you.

I'm saying it makes sense that I played a game with you that I was not at my best and you would naturally want to argue with me about stuff because you have more experience/think of yourself as a better player than me.

I am in terms of experience but in that game I lynched the Friendly neighbor as town, so I wouldn't call me a beacon of town. That's not why I'm talking to you though.

Suzune is a hard read for me because they have a vastly different way of thinking than I do.

Just because you have different ways of playstyles shouldn't be a basis for hard reading. Then again, she hasn't done much so maybe you don't have much of a read anyways.

My point is I've seen people that are constantly "sharing their thoughts" and then they proceed to change their mind like you wouldn't believe because they just can't make up their mind about stuff.

That's not a scumtell IMO.

My question to you is how is talking about this stuff making it any easier to get a read out of you and me for all the players in the game as opposed to if we weren't just squalling like little children? Do you even get my point here?

Because we get non RVS content. And that is optimal, especially in nightless.

~Espeon

Such town post.

@Elbirn If I was, I wouldn't tell you. Stupid question bro.

In other news, fire is town. I like the casual tone here.

Definitively don't like you concluding this at this stage in the game.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I understand you have a vote on me, yet since it is day one I have plenty of time to redeem myself in your eyes and prove helpful.

Ew

VOTE: Suzune

Ew begets ew. Hated this post.

Pressure the players who have yet to speak, for t hey are the ones who hide the most.
VOTE: Penguin alien

Speak now, or forever be tunneled!

Oh Fire, you were doing so well before this, I nearly had a town-read on you and everything.

This feels like what I remember of town grapes. Unapologetic in his reads and stances.

@Lickety; that post was almost literally the first thing I did in the morning. Autocorrect on phones sucks. I am also not playing exactly the same way I did in our first game together, as grapes pointed out. My whole try hard town routine is too exhausting and it was a major factor in me mislynching you. I'm slowing my roll a bit, feeling things out a bit more, trying to be less of a massive dick when I do post.

@Fire, didn't ask for a read on me. Why bother telling me I'm null? Just wanted to reinforce the ongoing games rule to be safe.

My first reading of this post I didn't like it, maybe bc of the defence of grapes, but the style and tone are relaxed and seem to be genuine. Less worried than I was.


110 is really bad. Grapes' catch-up wasn't that strong, and you've given him town-cred for 'reading the topic' :S

@Suz, do you not think enough has happened to get some reads? Even 1 town and one scum read? I know you mentioned gut, but there should be reasons.
When you talk about LQ, what are you thinking about his alignment?

133 I kinda like, for terrible reasons.

-bella
(phant)

(haven't spoken to my partner at all yet)

-pedit, lick: you are showing you are working through your thought processes, even tho they may not be mine/elb's, hence my reason for reading you at least.

This post is solid. I can follow it and it reeks of town.

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

Describe the feels so we actually know why it feels "wrong". Frankly the BS meter on this post is pinging pretty high for me.

I will catchup tomorrow, real world took over. Sorry.

This is a mistake. You should never have to apologize for not putting in time and effort into a game. You've been lurking and have said jack squat. you're steadily approaching a strong scum read of mine.

^yea I kinda expected a bit more progress than this by the time I got back

heading out to the store and stuff for a while - will give this some attention laterish

I have really mixed feeling about this post and grapes in general. On the one hand he is coming across like he wants to participate in the game and on the other he just does it when its convenient.

Since everyone wants to know my reads, including my partner:

Scum: Suznne, Marcrell/Shaded(Because they haven't moved their RVS vote yet, which is bad), Klingon (She is oftenly mislynch-bait which I am not playing with today)

Town: LQ (He should fuck off though), Elbirn (Big turnaround from RVS to actual content), Empoleon (In Bella I trust for now).

~Espeon

Such Town.

Guys, I'm really sick tonight. I can't focus on the game. I'll try again tomorrow.

Hope you feel better Klingon ;(

Even though my gut says you are scum.

@Marcell you just seem 'there' if you know what I mean? Like you are here but kind of in shadows a bit, not noticeable not drawing that much attention. Seems like what scum would do with all these seemingly TvTs going on.

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

Umm Klingon, this post worries me. We all get scum read by someone usually within first day. Why are you so surprised that I did?

This post gives me just bad vibes.

Sorry, ignore it. It was fever ranting. I get pissy when I'm sick.

I can't say anything because ongoing games, but, well, you're in that one on the other site, so you know. Bummed me out.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, you had a lot of excuses in the Deep Space Nine game as well and you were scum that game. So far you've provided us with a goose egg that has amounted to nothing.

I just want to note I feel like my town reads are pretty biased. For at least Morning Sun and Elbirn I townread them more because I like them and I am hoping they truly are town with me. Grapes is probably my strongest town read overall, followed by Empoleon

Anyone who thinks fire is scum, read this and tell me that scum fire would be so dead pan honest about townreading me and morning because he likes us. I don't see scum being so blatant and open about buddying.

I can see this. Guess I'll have to townread Fire some.

Since everyone wants to know my reads, including my partner:

Scum: Suznne, Marcrell/Shaded(Because they haven't moved their RVS vote yet, which is bad), Klingon (She is oftenly mislynch-bait which I am not playing with today)

Town: LQ (He should fuck off though), Elbirn (Big turnaround from RVS to actual content), Empoleon (In Bella I trust for now).

~Espeon

Sorry bout that. VOTE: Morning Sun. Good vote right here. You guys should vote it.

Also

^yea I kinda expected a bit more progress than this by the time I got back

heading out to the store and stuff for a while - will give this some attention laterish

https://xkcd.com/621/ It's been 100 posts between your last and this one. Is it all fluff or....

That comic is not as relevant as I expected.

This post suck so bad I want to lynch you for it alone almost regardless of your alignment. Such Scum.

Hm, strongest town game. Out of my current choices I would say 11PM. Day two was my strongest.

This links to a three post thread from 2007? I assume you meant Mini 1683, which did answer my initial musing of whether your slightly formal style was guarded or just your general style.

Not wild about Klingoncelt. I don't like the ratio of game-relevant content to everything else in his posts.

Firebringer feels town here so far in terms of his engaging with people and deliberately interacting with people he's played full games with.

Not feeling much of a flow so far. Might look over a few more ISOs instead of slogging through the whole thread yet again.

I see pretty much no conclusion here. Just talking to talk?

*waves* I exist

Firebringer is town. I've played two games in a row with him. Both times he was scum, and I read him as such. This doesn't feel like his scum game.

My townreads on lq and morning sun stand. Fire town. Good vibes from grapes. Everyone else is a blobby pile of nothing.

@elb, talk to me about grapes?

I'm not getting any solid reads right yet, everyone ranges between probable Town(Human) and leaning Human.

I do need to hear more from ShadedMelee and Marcrell.

I'm going to say something right now. All summer long every game I've been in was fucked up to some degree by players signing up then abandoning their slot after a couple of posts, Town & Scum alike. Unless there's a R/L emergency, I'm voting to lynch all replace-outs' slots.

I was town-reading this slot, but the lack of any reads and the kinda AtE around it are making me reassess this read.

Since everyone wants to know my reads, including my partner:

Scum: Suznne, Marcrell/Shaded(Because they haven't moved their RVS vote yet, which is bad), Klingon (She is oftenly mislynch-bait which I am not playing with today)

Town: LQ (He should fuck off though), Elbirn (Big turnaround from RVS to actual content), Empoleon (In Bella I trust for now).

~Espeon

Heeey, talk to me about Kling? Scum or mis-lynch bait, she can't be both.

Hm, strongest town game. Out of my current choices I would say 11PM. Day two was my strongest.

This links to a three post thread from 2007? I assume you meant Mini 1683, which did answer my initial musing of whether your slightly formal style was guarded or just your general style.

Not wild about Klingoncelt. I don't like the ratio of game-relevant content to everything else in his posts.

Firebringer feels town here so far in terms of his engaging with people and deliberately interacting with people he's played full games with.

Not feeling much of a flow so far. Might look over a few more ISOs instead of slogging through the whole thread yet again.

'Not wild' about this post. Very safe, boring stances, nothing new here at all and 'slogging' through less than a dozen pages.

245 from PA is terrible, I know I can't talk about my activity rn but at least my posts have content.

229 is a bizarre vote with little/no justifcation.


@blank, we were left off your reads list!

So gameplay agrees that we need to move our votes.

VOTE: Shaded

We need to pressure and weed out the lurkers today. This should be wagoned just to get him to fucking talk. Marcell is another good choice.

~Espeon

UNVOTE: Voting a town read is bad.

-still bella

@MornS, I would much prefer Marcrell today

VOTE: marcrell

Such goodness, such town. Please keep posting, don't let the Scum lurk.

*Looks* Oh Suzzne was in that game (Which is sad because that ruins my deep dark desire that suznne is a bookitty alt and that she would come back to me ) No I didn't remember Suznne's presense that game that much for I was looking at other players before her, like my slot, Bookitty, Farside, and House to be exact. But to be fair Suznne wasn't doing much when I called her scum and didn't do much until later and that bugged me as I find her to be a great reader inbetween the lines and easy to towntell.

Well I regret to be the one to tell you but I am not a bookitty alt. I'm just Suzune who Soren and Lucian fished up from my own site and told me to move here and play with them. Therefore, I will not be the harbinger of Bookitty returning to you. I apologise~

I know so many games where scum just kind of are there. They contribute a bit, but they don't make huge waves. That thats it feels like he has been doing.

This is the kind of behavior we should look for, ripples in the water. People who appear to be around but are not really doing anything to move the story on. No offense but the post I quoted this from feels a bit like that. By saying you are only going on gut you are pretty much not giving the town any leeway to discuss anything, so sufficiently stonewalling the conversation. The post looks helpful on the surface but is not pushing the game forward. This kind of behavior is what you were just suggesting, was it not? You would not happen to be one of those lurking mafia, would you?

Sadly blank I appreciate you town reads because town hunting is important too, but I would like to hear about your scum reads as well.

About Kling; I am just sensing a little bit of fluff right now. I would really appreciate if he got into the game and started talking more. Realistically I have only played in games where he is scum before, but this not talking much is new to me...

Marcell is rubbing me the wrong way. His posts are either agreeing with someone else, making a joke, or sort of sidestepping a problem. This strikes me as not wanting to create a disturbance or trying to slip away unseen by posting. Also only having five posts at this point into the game he is barely skirting being here enough. Honestly I would love to place a vote on him but I want to check the vote count first because so many people seem interested in him.

So for the time being, I will toss by vote onto the other person with the light posting touch
VOTE: Firebringer
Who in the end did not really go back and explain his reads...

I see nothing but Town motivation in this post. I think Fire is Town, but I think the motive behind Suz's post here pings Town pretty hard core.

Melee's disappeared for a few days now, which is a shame because I played with him before. He also buddied me and was scum and probably won them the game as I was lynched in lylo for it. Hope he comes back.

Hey there. That was a good game, nice to see you again. (No i am not buddying again

I did not like grapes 256. Too much asking "why" on other's posts rather than making his geniune analysis. Thats a common pattern of scum trying to fabricate reasons.

VOTE: grapes

Suz, Morning and Lickety are probably town.

I really don't like this post. It seems like he's grasping at straws all the while hanging on to the general consensus at the same freaking time.

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

You are saying a lot of words but not really saying much.

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

In contrast to FB's opinion, this is a town post.

Wut? Why?

Same qs to you, please.

They felt like potshots, though. Your thing about not liking blankface at first for defending me felt weird because 1) it didn't really look like a defesne and 2) it felt like a shallow attempt to keep consistency after saying you thought my catchup wasn't strong(which yea it really wasn't imo as well but that's beside the point) and looked like your impression of me was too interwined in your impression of blankface for my liking

willing to take it at face value that you actually weren't paying close attention to me to start and will chalk your turnaround up to that - and not just wanting me to go away after seeing im not afraid to confront you

plus i kinda liked your reply here

i don't think firebringer is scum

i asked about your read on vyse because ive learned my lesson a while ago about equating low content to scum and wondered exactly how you would have him at anything but null at the time, i guess we just see things differently there - i think his catch up readslist thingie was pretty decent, a few qualms would be how dolled up it was and that the term 'thought process' was used a lot - my like least favorite buzzword, and imo id like to see him actually dance with the thread some

suzune, fire and in the less strong spectrum you've got morningsun who's been better - (in actuality I just found their #259 pretty funny) so i bumped them up a bit and elbirn who has felt off the cuff so far

definitely bacon if i had to choose one

Hes town. Now shhhhh. I don't want him to come back.

And that opinion is getting dangerously close to hivemind territory!

I can tell it's gonna be one of those games. Where I'm fucking right and the rest of the game is wrong and will get tuned out until forever more because there's no way grapes ever has good reads or anything.

Melee's disappeared for a few days now, which is a shame because I played with him before. He also buddied me and was scum and probably won them the game as I was lynched in lylo for it. Hope he comes back.

Hey there. That was a good game, nice to see you again. (No i am not buddying again

I did not like grapes 256. Too much asking "why" on other's posts rather than making his geniune analysis. Thats a common pattern of scum trying to fabricate reasons.

VOTE: grapes

Suz, Morning and Lickety are probably town.

^would lynch this. This post is hot garbage.

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

Well, you're obviously not having trouble getting reads because you just gave some townreads so...?

The lack of scumreads is a bit concerning. Feels like trying to find friends more than find scum.

Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.

And this is funny coming from someone not voting anyone.

I really really like this post by grapes and am willing to change my read on them because of it.

Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.

Are you and Grapes buddies. then?

VOTE: Lickety

I'll do a reads list and if you think I'm scummy cuz of my read, go ahead and try and push it then.

[LicketyQuickety]

Empoleon Bellapatre - Much town. Though while not the most active their posts have been gold when they do post.

Suzune - All their reactions and actions scream of town motivation.

Elbirn - Do not like. He's getting way too much town cred for me to be comfortable with. Moderate scum read.

Marcrell - Everyone of his posts have been like he is just planning on coasting through this game. I'd say scum.

Morning Sun - They've been active and making stances on people. Playing very Pro-Town. Moderate Town read.

Firebringer - Liking hes contributions as of his last few posts. Would say leaning Town.

ShadedMelee - I just feel like he's acting like he's already caught as scum and has almost given up already. Likely Scum.

Klingocelt - Giving a lot of excesses already in the game for not being caught up. Don't like that they are talking but not really providing any stances on almost anyone. I'd say likely Scum.

Penguin_alien - Don't like their inactivity and not really concluding much, just pointing things out. Null.

VysePresident - Null. Need to see more post from them.

BlankFace - Stating to get much more null than Town lately. Not sure what to make of his activity and posts. Could go either way for me.

grapes - I sorta feel like they have partially redeemed themselves with a couple of good posts. Want to say Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

So if you'd all humor me, take a look at Klingons iso.

Done? Okay.

It's crap. Her first like 20 posts are fluff, casually throwing shade on a few players in a few instances, and she doesn't even take a stance on anyone until her 22nd post

Guys, I'm really sick tonight. I can't focus on the game. I'll try again tomorrow.

Hope you feel better Klingon ;(

Even though my gut says you are scum.

@Marcell you just seem 'there' if you know what I mean? Like you are here but kind of in shadows a bit, not noticeable not drawing that much attention. Seems like what scum would do with all these seemingly TvTs going on.

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

Unimpressive ate..

I'm not getting any solid reads right yet, everyone ranges between probable Town(Human) and leaning Human.

I do need to hear more from ShadedMelee and Marcrell.

I'm going to say something right now. All summer long every game I've been in was fucked up to some degree by players signing up then abandoning their slot after a couple of posts, Town & Scum alike. Unless there's a R/L emergency, I'm voting to lynch all replace-outs' slots.

Still has no reads. Still doing ate. Sets up for justifying lynching replace outs which is the laziest and crappiest thing I've heard

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

I'm not sure if Marcrell's Scum. In fact, due to meta, he's leaning Town for me. I've been in a couple games with him, both of us were Scum, all he did was make a couple vanity posts then he flaked. He's way more active in this game, that has him leaning Town for me.

This is her first read. It took nearly 300 posts to get a read out of her and it's pretty weak sauce.

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

*sigh*
Look she rules out reading 5 people based on not having played with them, dismisses 3 more on "idk how to read them", and then throws out 4 townreads for everyone she eliminated and with no reason.

Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.

More ate

Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.

Are you and Grapes buddies. then?

VOTE: Lickety

This is just straight up omgus, there's nothing else to this

----

4realz, Klingoncelt 2016. A vote for klingon is a vote for a better tomorrow.

K, so I'm not willing to think you are bussing Kling at this point, but I do think one of you is scum. Going over this post as well as other things going on in the thread, its not difficult for me to think that Kling could be Town and you are pushing an easy lynch. Just know that if Kling is Town and gets lynched based on this case you made against her, no one will be sheeping you this game.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ -284 - BF's town bc scum him would be doing better? Really? Also, why focus on those two? (BF and vyse). Explain your thoughts about the Marc wagon a bit more? It's not got a huge amount of support, really... and I like the fact there are two competing candidates (however *). Also, I think your readslist isn't terrible, but I can't parse it like that -

can you group it a little easier?

(Non game spoiler -

dyslexic, if you would help that'd be fab

)

Before the game started BF said his meta isn't exactly the same it was when I played with him and he has reiterated that in the thread. Its hard to explain and put my finger on, but I just think his overall feel he would have to his posts would be different than what they are if he was scum -its just a feel right now that BF is town. I have not seen his scum play so take it with a grain of salt. As far as focusing on BF and Vyse, I just think that they are both very competent players who are not at all slow/dumb. BF knows how to play by the book and tbh I have no idea how he knows how to do that because iirc my first newbie game here was only his second game here (correct me if I'm wrong here BlankFace). For Vyse, I was just quoting what I though was a pretty townie quality post. Knowing the background that he's big into matial arts make me think that he prolly has a bit better strategic mind than your average joe on the street. I sorta also think that someone like that would have a pretty different feel to their posts if they were Scum. Like I would just expect Vyse to be playing a more misdirect and discredit game as scum, but this is just my intuitive thinking talking. Vyse has said that they know their game really well so I suppose he could be doing what he is doing as scum, but for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I will say that Vyse's reads that he has given in this early stage of the game will likely give him away as scum late game so I would like people like yourself to pay attention to Vyse's reads throughout the game cuz if Vyse is scum that's how he's going to get caught after enough flips happen.

I don't know what you mean by the bold. Explain?

Hmm - @Blank, Vyse, PA any questions my way? I'm struggling to get a firm read on your slots.

I'm almost inclined to give you a town read for this statement alone.

@Kling, who would you vote for rn?

If Kling keeps her OMGUS vote on me I think its worth a lynch at this point because Kling really should know better than to do that.

Elb's response to me is good * I could lynch either Marc or KC rn, which is a little bit concerning bc I'm not sure how likely it is they are both scum, but I feel the cases on both are pretty good.

[/quote]

This is prolly the most shady thing if taken at face value. While I'm still willing to give you a Town read at this point this statement does concern me some. Being in favor of either wagon flipping at this early stage of the game when statistically speaking the first day is the worst day to actually get scum lynched.



I'd flip Marcrell over Kling at this point simply because I feel Marc is just playing really anti-town. Also I am just not seeing Marcrell scum hunting like at all. When I see someone not scum hunting its a pretty huge scum tell for me especially when its still pretty easy to do as Scum, so when it happens it raises some huge red flags for me.

[LicketyQuickety]

I find myself agreeing with firebringer here. It's a poor reaction to not a lot of pressure. And then an even stranger reaction when they start getting votes.

Think that calls for some more.

VOTE: klingoncelt

And this makes grapes a good lynch for today. Come on people.

This is quite possible the worst post I have ever seen in a mafia game.

I'm fine Lynching Marcrell, SM or elb at this point.
For Marcrell he is just not defending himself and we all know that Scum sorta have a guilt complex and know they should get caught.

For SM, his post quality has been so poor and it just reeks of Scum all over the place. Can we please start a wagon on him to see if he votes himself or some crazy thing like that?

Elb is a little different because I think that even if they are town that the stances that he took on people are going to be pretty noteworthy and that goes double as Scum. His strong stance on Kling being Scum is kinda weird because its still pretty early in the game.

The only reason I'm not wild about Lynching Kling at this point in time is because Elb took such a strong stance against him and I think Kling could be the type of player that just might need a lot to work with before they have reads. Some players are like that. (Going to ISO both elb and Kling just to see what's going on there).

[LicketyQuickety]

Waiting in a car on a cell phone. Does that ring a bell Blank? That's the the time I was talking about. There was a stretch of time where you didn't vote for ages and ended up on the right wagon lynching Maquis for the town win.

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay sorry, Wednesday is my really busy night. Was unavailable then.

Was sort of liking Lickety, this bothers me though.

Alright so Licketys town. He's on a completely different wavelength, but he's town.

WTH, There is no way I should be a town read because I have a similar read on the same person that you do. This shit is infuriating.

EBWOP

Had to water it down so that people can actually understand what the heck I am saying. ://///////

It feels wrong.

Suzune seems sort of town to me.

Describe the feels so we actually know why it feels "wrong". Frankly the BS meter on this post is pinging pretty high for me.

The motivation felt scummy I would say. In the wording. It didn't seem like town writing.

Seriously? this is the best you could come up with? describe the feeling then???

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW, Poker players might understand this term, but the reason I have not moved my vote yet is because I'm floating it.

[LicketyQuickety]

marcrell's playstyle matches with the game i played with him. He was town.

I'd like a link to that please.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like my reads are off a bit this game. Can't explain it, just seems like there's not enough activity and its effecting my reads. Would really like people to stop lurking so much.

[LicketyQuickety]

marcrell's playstyle matches with the game i played with him. He was town.

I'd like a link to that please.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=57612

heh.. I did a quick ISO of both of you from that game and both of you were way more active in that game and playing way more pro-town in that game as well.

Care to guess how your post count in that game compares to what it is in this game at the same number of posts in the thread? I'll just go ahead and tell you. You had 20 post compared to your 8 in this one and Marcrell had 18 compared to his 9 in this one and there were the same number of players in that one that there is in this one. Both of you came on much stronger and much more confident in that game as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW I had you at null and now I

really

have you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.

[LicketyQuickety]

And oddly enough this more secures my town read on Emp Bella.

[LicketyQuickety]

marcrell's playstyle matches with the game i played with him. He was town.

I'd like a link to that please.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=57612

heh.. I did a quick ISO of both of you from that game and both of you were way more active in that game and playing way more pro-town in that game as well.

Care to guess how your post count in that game compares to what it is in this game at the same number of posts in the thread? I'll just go ahead and tell you. You had 20 post compared to your 8 in this one and Marcrell had 18 compared to his 9 in this one and there were the same number of players in that one that there is in this one. Both of you came on much stronger and much more confident in that game as well.

I was scum at that game. Do not expect my meta to match this game
Marcrell although not exactly at the same post level, giving the same vibes to me, which was neither townish or scummy, positioning in between. That was the reason i chose him to buddy with in that game.

OK so tell me why you have not been active this game because you clearly know more what you're doing than you are letting on.

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW, Poker players might understand this term, but the reason I have not moved my vote yet is because I'm floating it.

I play poker and have no idea what you mean by this.
I guess I don't play enough.

You clearly need to do some poker theory reading then. So the guy is bluffing and you know it so you don't bet hoping he will keep betting. It works as a bluff too. In that way you are looking to sandbag them at the end hoping he folds. It works the same both ways.

I feel like my reads are off a bit this game. Can't explain it, just seems like there's not enough activity and its effecting my reads. Would really like people to stop lurking so much.

Town post.[/quote]

This is prolly the only game I have been almost universally town read fwiw.

[LicketyQuickety]

K, since I'm a town read (for most of you) I'm going to shake things up a bit. I have 4 (four) tapes at my disposal. I'm willing to send a message with some info I can't disclose here to one of my town reads. Its up for grabs between Emp Bella, Morning Sun, Suzune and possibly grapes if any of you can convince me its a good idea. that goes double for grapes since I have the weakest town read on him currently.

Ready, go!

[LicketyQuickety]

@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?

BTW I had you at null and now I

really

have you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.

Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean by 'meta shift'?

I'm feeling a lot more strongly about Elbirn. Marcrell could go either way, while I'm pretty confident Elbirn is scum.

Your tone was 10X more assertive than what you were doing previously. The fact that you are representing that you haven't observed this is really off putting.

Elb is playing way more pro-town than marcrell is, so I don't know why you are on the fence about him and are scumreading elb so hard :/

[LicketyQuickety]

I now have a Null/Scum read on Fire because of their reaction to my post. I now understand why gameplay is scum reading fire. That is all.

[LicketyQuickety]

In fact, with the reaction that Fire had I'm willing to:

VOTE: Fire

[LicketyQuickety]

But @Fire, you can redeem yourself by telling us all how many tapes you started with.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hey @Vyse, want some Town cred? How bout you vote Fire with me?

[LicketyQuickety]

But @Fire, you can redeem yourself by telling us all how many tapes you started with.

Did people start with a different number of tapes?

I did. If you think there are no PT in this game you are wrong. The Link I provided are just sample roles.

[LicketyQuickety]

But @Fire, you can redeem yourself by telling us all how many tapes you started with.

Did people start with a different number of tapes?

I did. If you think there are no PT in this game you are wrong. The Link I provided are just sample roles.

And PT was included in the sample roles iirc.

[LicketyQuickety]

In fact, with the reaction that Fire had I'm willing to:

VOTE: Fire

We officially have a bad town.
Always has to be one, sometimes its me. This game its Lickety.
Have fun with that Lickety.

But @Fire, you can redeem yourself by telling us all how many tapes you started with.

Do I look like your lap boy?
Do I look like I need your dumb 'redemption'?

Screw you pal.
I don't take orders. Especially to get in anyones 'good graces'

Why were you so surprised that I had 4 tapes O.o

[LicketyQuickety]

@Lickety, I don't know what you are talking about.
I wasn't shocked about your tapes, I was shocked you were going to use them to send "private info" to your top reads.

Like what possibly could you be holding back on us?
Nothing.

If you are holding back reads/info thats anti town.

You are assuming I do not know what I'm doing. I do. I not doing this all willy nilly with no reason. I am not a VI at this point. Yeah, I have some different type of thinking that some people don't get, but I am not as green as you think. That's just not going to fly with me.

[LicketyQuickety]

I never said you do this willy nilly. I think its just well....stupid.

I don't see the point in these tapes. They seem to be more useful to scum than to town.

But we know the scum have a private chat. Why would they ever need the tapes. Therefore, there has to be something we can do with them that is beneficial to the town.

Yes Suzune. The tapes are there for a reason. I have a good use for one of mine currently. the fact that Fire is saying there is not reason for tapes other than scum use is really quite astonishing -especially when you consider who made this setup which is a person who has been awarded for setups already.

I think Fire is trying to back peddle, but it isn't working. I really would like Fire to claim, but we wont get that until there is intent to hammer. I was starting to come around on Fire thinking he was town, but these last reactions have me really thinking that he is scum. The fact that he did not wait to see what other people would do before immediately jumping on me and saying I'm full of it is really telling to me. I could see where Fire could be Town here, but the fact that he is so resistant to cooperate sharing how many tapes he started with and that whole frustration he showed is further evidence that he does not want to be caught in a lie, which if he thinks I am town and therefore not a threat he should be trusting me way than he is.

P-Edit: clearly you did not even bother to read the sample roles that 4nxi3ty gave in the link I provided. this just leans me more to that he is not trying to figure out this game and that is a Scum trait.

[LicketyQuickety]

lol you win a prize before for reading players?
Cause you get the nobel prize for getting everything wrong!!!

WOOT WOOT!

I will be the host for the awards ceremony.

Should be fun.

Meanwhile, the actual scum are likely just lurking in this thread.
You know, like most scum do.

Its not only Scum who are observing what is going on in the thread right now. People are watching your reactions and that includes town. Just cooperate and tell me how many tapes you started with. This can actually clear you as town so I see no reason why you don't share this info. It will tell us town, even if you don't get lynch today who received tapes from you. That is part of what the tapes are for. They are there so that we can talk about who sent what tapes to who and what was said on those tapes. Tapes add a lot of info to the game.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have 30 tapes.
All of which I plan not to use, cause they are worthless lol.

Is this an honest answer? be real with me here.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have 30 tapes.
All of which I plan not to use, cause they are worthless lol.

Is this an honest answer? be real with me here.

I started with 2 tapes, just like everyone else man.
Nobody started out with more.

This tape discussion is just silly.

K, so first you say you disagree with me wanting to send out a tape and when I thought you didn't like what I was doing because I said I had 4 tapes you said that was not the reason. So why did you not bring up that you thought that no one has more than 2 when it came up?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Suzune, How do you read fire's reaction to all this?

[LicketyQuickety]

My vote remains on Lickety.

That he has 2 extra tapes makes him look even more scummy in my eyes, because those tapes would be very helpful for the Devils and Ghosts to coordinate their kills. I have no idea how Town can use the things.

This assumes that both scum teams already know who each other are, which contradicts what I said in the beginning the the thread when I said I believe they do not know who each other are. Its quite the risky business to be relaying info to a partner team if you can't be sure who they are. The fact that you say so assuredly that they do know who each other are means you either know something that the rest of us don't or are assuming a great deal.

Plus you just scum slipped by saying that I had

2 extra

tapes as opposed to saying that I just have more tapes or four tapes. This implies that you also think that everyone started off with only 2 tapes, but you say that you believe that I actually do have 4 tapes.

I pulled a gambit hoping to find scum. Fire bit on it so I was thinking he was scum, but after seeing his reaction and looking at his updated Wiki I now know that it was just a simple misunderstanding of the setup since he has been in 17 active games.

I'm reading Fire as Town now and I am fairly confident that Kling is scum.

VOTE: Kling

[LicketyQuickety]

My vote remains on Lickety.

That he has 2 extra tapes makes him look even more scummy in my eyes, because those tapes would be very helpful for the Devils and Ghosts to coordinate their kills. I have no idea how Town can use the things.

Plus you just scum slipped by saying that I had

2 extra

tapes as opposed to saying that I just have more tapes or four tapes. This implies that you also think that everyone started off with only 2 tapes, but you say that you believe that I actually do have 4 tapes.

VOTE: Kling

I repeat, what the fuck am I reading.

Kling is still scum so good job lq, but she's not scum for this.

Its a freudian slip dude.

[LicketyQuickety]

It's not an open setup Lickety. Compared to the Vanilla PM role, saying you have 4 tapes is having 2 extra tapes. That's not a scum slip and you're nitpicking.

Blank,

I read people based on that kind of stuff and its pretty reliable for me. That's all I really have to say about it.

[LicketyQuickety]

No, it's literally math.

Everyone started with 2 tapes. I started with 2 tapes. If you say that you have 4 tapes, then yes, you started with 2 extra tapes compared to me. Extra means more, it doesn't mean "I'm scum and you caught me by the way I have 2 tapes why do you get more than me".

I will politely disagree. Klings narrative was not speaking in a way that was comparing his tapes to mine.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm missing something. What is she comparing if not her tapes to your tapes?

Her's AND everyone elses.

[LicketyQuickety]

Right....


No






No I still don't get it

You don't get it because its not strictly logical. I'm bad at reading people by logic most the time, but I am good at reads sometimes.

[LicketyQuickety]

So all your reads are illogical?


Yeah, I don't follow this either. Its kind of like a weird mind game Lickety is trying to play that nobody but him understands.
I mean its so odd and gives me a few good laughs.

I do think Klingon is scum, though the reasons Lickety mentioned are pretty laughable.

Did I say ALL my reads are illogical? No didn't. If you weren't in so many games maybe you could actually pay attention to what is happening in your games.

[LicketyQuickety]

Wow not the first one to slam me for playing so many games.
I know people who only play 1 or 2 games and still don't know what the hell is happening lol.

I don't even take notes for my games. Don't believe in them.

I agreed with you on Klingoncelt, I am not trying to discredit you Lickety, I am saying your thought process for this is kind of alien to most of us. It doesn't mean its wrong!!!

You can have a false premise that leads to a right conclusion.

I can link numerous games where I had what looked like false premise but the read was dead on.

[LicketyQuickety]

Did you not just read what I said?

False Premise can lead to a right conclusion.

What exactly does that mean to you?

Cause I can say Klingoncelt is scum this game because she posted "Hi" in first post. And everyone knows that "Hi" Equals SCUM! Guilty. She flips scum, GUESS MY PREMISE WAS RIGHT!?!?!?!?

Stop. Slow down and read. I'm making a point and sorta kinda agreeing with you and reaffirming that "false premise" is something I use to get reads sometimes. I don't consider what I do to be considered false premise but I am saying it is not the first time people have not understood how I got from point A to point B.

[LicketyQuickety]

All that said, my Town read on Fire could not be stronger right now without him being confirmed.

[LicketyQuickety]

My vote remains on Lickety.

That he has 2 extra tapes makes him look even more scummy in my eyes, because those tapes would be very helpful for the Devils and Ghosts to coordinate their kills. I have no idea how Town can use the things.

This assumes that both scum teams already know who each other are, which contradicts what I said in the beginning the the thread when I said I believe they do not know who each other are. Its quite the risky business to be relaying info to a partner team if you can't be sure who they are. The fact that you say so assuredly that they do know who each other are means you either know something that the rest of us don't or are assuming a great deal.

Plus you just scum slipped by saying that I had

2 extra

tapes as opposed to saying that I just have more tapes or four tapes. This implies that you also think that everyone started off with only 2 tapes, but you say that you believe that I actually do have 4 tapes.

I pulled a gambit hoping to find scum. Fire bit on it so I was thinking he was scum, but after seeing his reaction and looking at his updated Wiki I now know that it was just a simple misunderstanding of the setup since he has been in 17 active games.

I'm reading Fire as Town now and I am fairly confident that Kling is scum.

VOTE: Kling[/v ]

Read the OP, Lickety. Post 0:

You will be teaming up with the White Ghosts YYYY & ZZZZ to consume the humanity.

You will be teaming up with the Red Devils WWWW & XXXX to consume humanity.

Nice try, Scum.

All it says is that they are teamed. It says nothing about them knowing who each other are, unless I am really misunderstanding something. Why wouldn't it just be one team if they knew who each other were with different roles? Lastly, how are you going to say because I'm ignorant of the setup that I am scum if that is the case?


screen shot on pc

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm making a prediction: Town is going to win this game. Step 1: Lynch Kling.

[LicketyQuickety]

, Klingoncelt"]buuut 286 i think you all will find to be a pretty reliable town tell - i just can't see the scum motivation for klingon to take a stance opposed to the next most likely wagon to go through while being wagoned herself

[/quote]

Well this is good cuz it opens the possibility that both Kling and Marcrell are both Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

, Klingoncelt"]buuut 286 i think you all will find to be a pretty reliable town tell - i just can't see the scum motivation for klingon to take a stance opposed to the next most likely wagon to go through while being wagoned herself

Well this is good cuz it opens the possibility that both Kling and Marcrell are both Scum.

How does it open a possibility? I guess you see the buddying aspects but it really doesn't make sense as scum when you're about to be lynched to suddenly talk about how town your partner is. It doesn't work out for scum.

Shadedmelee is complex. Usually people that just post one-line phrases and only occasionally aren't scum, but I don't want to let him coast in case he is.
VOTE: Shadedmelee
TvT call seems sort of towny. Not enough to justify. But I'll keep it on the backburner if I like his play more later.[/quote]

Actually it makes perfect sense why you could both be scum. If there is a wagon on two scum what motivation is if you are Kling and scum to say Marcrell is scum? that would not make sense to do that given how early in the day it was.

It really looks like you're just trying to start a wagon on someone who is not yourself of Kling friend.

[LicketyQuickety]

ughhh

you get lynched a lot, don't you.

As Town I have a near-perfect record of early-game mislynches.

Shit gets old.

Self meta is scummy.

[LicketyQuickety]

@MOD

, I had a quote fail, my vote should be on Kling.

Just to make sure:

VOTE: Kling

And Kling, I was also voted off day one in about half my games up until my like 16 game. My point is it is YOUR problem if you are getting Lynched day one that often, not anyone elses. I have learned somethings about how to play and changed some things about my play so I not longer get voted off day one every other game anymore.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi, I dont see Espeonage here doing stuff and its hurting my townread of that slot.

We need to pick a lynch now before deadline.

My flight is leaving soon. Message when I land.

Long fight? Be safe and come back soon.


~Espeon

Dude, BF is not getting lynched today, change your vote to Kling.

[LicketyQuickety]

Kling is town and we stand by it.

VOTE: Shaded.

How is Kling Town? What has Kling done that is actually Townie?

[LicketyQuickety]

Lickety, you are jumping around so much.
I can't follow you at all.

I think you have switched votes at least 3 times in last 2 pages.

You are not making any sense man. A lot has happened since I had my vote on you. My vote has been on cling since page 17.

[LicketyQuickety]

the only lynches that make sense at this point are:

Kling
ShadedMelee
Marcrell

If you are not voting one of these people please do.

[LicketyQuickety]

Another thing, its nightless so we have time to lynch lurkers.

Also LQ is a PR if he has 4 tapes.

~Espeon

I'm fine with lynching lurkers...

So he's a PR? And not Scum? Please explain.

Yeah, So.... one of the sample roles in the Setup was a PR. What are you not understanding about this.

I said and was clear, that I pulled a gambit by saying I had 4 tapes. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[LicketyQuickety]

Another thing, its nightless so we have time to lynch lurkers.

Also LQ is a PR if he has 4 tapes.

~Espeon

I'm fine with lynching lurkers...

So he's a PR? And not Scum? Please explain.

Yeah, So.... one of the sample roles in the Setup was a PR. What are you not understanding about this.

I said and was clear, that I pulled a gambit by saying I had 4 tapes. Why is this so difficult to understand?

"Gambit"? Do you have 4 tapes or not. Why even out that dude? We don't know what the point of these tapes are yet. What was the point.

Yeah, I do not have 4 tapes. I got a good solid Town read out of Fire, and I am reading Kling as scum even more out of it. That is what gambits are suppose to do, get reads out of people.

[LicketyQuickety]

Zzzz

Someone talk to me about marcrell and shaded melee.

I read over marcrell and its...not actually bad and idk why he has votes. I like that a few of his stances go against the grain (tho his morning sun vote was bad imo), and his few posts seem ~effort~.

His vote on shadedmelee....hm if we assume scum-klingon and scum-marcrell, it'd make sense that he'd want to get on a new counterwagon. If town-klingon scum-marcrell, he'd want to push the klingon wagon. If scumortown-klingon and town-marcrell, he wouldn't give a shit and would vote a scumread.

So the PoV's that make sense to me are klingon and Marcrell are buddies or marcrell is town, and

I don't like preflip associative so I'd rather think Marcrell is town here.

Tldr I'm not touching Marc today, and I don't think he's a good wagon.

WTH kind of reasoning is this?

[LicketyQuickety]

This was seriously stupid and unecessary. Whats it going to take to vote shaded.

I think I mentioned this, but I don't sheep, I vote my scumreads. Kling is on the block as well as SM and Marcrell. I'm going to see how the votes go when people change their votes to one of these people before I consider changing mine.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ: that's great reasoning. You can't assume two people are partnered until they flip. You can't push someone to lynch because you think you see an association, and for nothing else. I don't scumread marcrell, so I'm not lynching him. If we lynch klingon and she flips scum, then I could see using that as an association tell, but that's not evidence until/unless klingon flips scum.

@morningsun: sell me on town-klingon and scum-shaded and I'll move my vote.

My point is the way it was worded it seemed like you were not going to scumread Marcrell

because

it was an association and that is what I have a real problem with.

[LicketyQuickety]

Another thing, its nightless so we have time to lynch lurkers.

Also LQ is a PR if he has 4 tapes.

~Espeon

I'm fine with lynching lurkers...

So he's a PR? And not Scum? Please explain.

Yeah, So.... one of the sample roles in the Setup was a PR. What are you not understanding about this.

I said and was clear, that I pulled a gambit by saying I had 4 tapes. Why is this so difficult to understand?

*sigh*

And what was the point of the gambit?

How exactly was it supposed to work for Town?

I was not prejudging what I was going to expect in the way of reactions, but instead I was going to watch very closely how people do/are react/ing. I got a good solid Town read out of someone who I was on the fence about which was Fire so it was pretty successful fmpov. I figured I would get one maybe 2 people out of my Town reads saying they wanted a tape. Emp Bella did react that way so in that regard what was expected did happen. And now that I think about it I'm feeling a stronger Town read out of Mourning Sun out of it as well. The Emp Bella reaction is pretty null tho. For your reaction, I didn't like it, like at all. I can't really put my finger on it, but shortly after You talked about what you brought up what was talked about from you earlier about how you are always lynch bait and it didn't jive well with me. Also there was the wording that, to me, is very suspect. I could however see Morning Sun's critizism of my gambit to be a rolefish, but I not really seeing that at this point and the days to come will tell whether that is what they were doing or not.

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay, I'm not quite getting an answer.

You just threw it out there and had no idea what to look for but you'd know it when you saw it?

Let's try this: Per your gambit, what benefit exactly would there be to any Townie having extra tapes?

(Because I still see extra tapes as a benefit to the Scum teams. I think it was a slip, not a gambit.)

How 'bout simply telling a town read what you role is?

[LicketyQuickety]

Prodge. Finally have a day off tomorrow to go do a read through.

Still waiting for an answer too.

From who?

[LicketyQuickety]

OK this needs to be said. I have no idea why Kling has me as scum. I don't understand it at all.

pa, please say your reasons for why myself and Morning Sun are scum. So far what you got is pretty weak. You are Null to me so far; with this last post I'm prolly leaning Scum cuz a lot has happened and your not saying much at all.

[LicketyQuickety]

...so it's weak in your estimation? Why do you care so much? Just about those two reads and not my other three scum reads? And what of such great import has happened exactly aside from your boring four tapes 'gambit'?

Cuz I know I'm town. I don't know Morning Sun is Town, but its looking that way to me. I'm on the fence on SM and my read on Marcrell isn't really based on much. My point is you didn't really give many reasons why you have about 40% of the game as scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay, I'm not quite getting an answer.

You just threw it out there and had no idea what to look for but you'd know it when you saw it?

Let's try this: Per your gambit, what benefit exactly would there be to any Townie having extra tapes?

(Because I still see extra tapes as a benefit to the Scum teams. I think it was a slip, not a gambit.)

How 'bout simply telling a town read what you role is?

How about answering the question?

It can't be that hard.

What are you talking about!!! I answered the freaking question. There is likely to be PT in this game and you could tell a town read what role you have.. that is a reason to use the tapes! Look, you have 2 people that town read each other, one gives another a recorded message saying what role they are. Its a move that works because then town doesn't have to claim in the thread. There is not way you are this dumb. I like where my vote is right now.

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay, I'm not quite getting an answer.

You just threw it out there and had no idea what to look for but you'd know it when you saw it?

Let's try this: Per your gambit, what benefit exactly would there be to any Townie having extra tapes?

(Because I still see extra tapes as a benefit to the Scum teams. I think it was a slip, not a gambit.)

How 'bout simply telling a town read what you role is?

How about answering the question?

It can't be that hard.

What are you talking about!!! I answered the freaking question. There is likely to be PT in this game and you could tell a town read what role you have.. that is a reason to use the tapes! Look, you have 2 people that town read each other, one gives another a recorded message saying what role they are. Its a move that works because then town doesn't have to claim in the thread. There is not way you are this dumb. I like where my vote is right now.

OK why extra tapes: to send more messages... Really? you are asking me this? I already said I don't have 4 tapes.. why are you sooo on the thing with me having 4 tapes??? This crap doesn't make sense.

[LicketyQuickety]

claim: vengeful human

VOTE: Empoleon Bellapatre

Why did you claim?

[LicketyQuickety]

So, meant to get to this sooner, but all my friends seem to be falling apart, and I've spent the last 12+ hours dealing with various forms of depression & unnecessary drama, pretty much straight.

Going to hold off posting much until tomorrow, but I'll run through some simple stuff.

I will say that I don't really care about any of current wagons much at all. It's both awkward & frustrating for me, because I don't want to be one of those guys who yells at the entire thread, but at the same time, Elbirn is screaming scum to me to an extreme, and I don't get why everyone's ignoring him. Maybe I'll have a chance to explain it better in the morning, but the best I can say at the moment is that everything he's saying is shallow & perfunctory. His Town reads are unimpressive, and his play feels like checking off a list. His commitment to Klingon's wagon is based off a hyperbolic reading of her play - in other words, he's using a lot of rhetoric to call her play something it really isn't. Her reads are shallow to date, not 'sly pushing'. Her commitment to lynching replacements is a bad idea, but realistically, he's making a mountain out of a molehill. It's the kind of thing you do when you know you're expected to have scumreads, and

Marcrell is meh, Klingon is meh, Shaded is meh. (And given Elbirn's Townread on Shaded, I'm inclined to believe Shaded actually is Town at the moment, just because I don't think Elbirn's the type to get bold with his scumbuddies, but I do think he'd like the cred of not being on a mislynch.)

That's where I'm at.

@Penguin - Because I can mostly follow LQ's thought processes. There are a few things I'm watching in regards to his timing & commitment, but I can see it as a coherent - if very messy - train of thought. He's lost me a little recently, but I'm reviewing at the moment. Not sure how to explain it better at the moment.

Anyway, I'm tired, and a little depressed myself now, so take care all! I'm going to hit the sack.

Yeah, I thought I was playing a lot of games at the same time with 5, but that's pretty much nothing compared to Fire at this point.

I highly encourage you to ask me questions if there is anything you want me to expand on, which weirdly hardly anyone is really doing the right way at this point in time.

[LicketyQuickety]

I highly encourage you to ask me questions if there is anything you want me to expand on, which weirdly hardly anyone is really doing the right way at this point in time.

I realize this post was aimed at someone else, but I'm still waiting for you to answer my question.

I'll try rephrasing it.

Here goes: Why did you try a bad "gambit," and why do you use the inconclusive results to make arbitrary reads on players?

Couple reasons:

1. I was bored. Horrible reason, but its true. It turns out its not as fun as you would think to be almost universally town read.

2. I didn't think it was a "Bad" gambit because I was thinking more than a few people would actually believe me.

3. I did get a conclusive result that I have talked about multiple times. The strongest thing I got out of it was that I am now very strongly Townreading Fire.

[LicketyQuickety]

There was a hammer? I suppose we should wait to see if there is another death.

[LicketyQuickety]

There was a hammer? I suppose we should wait to see if there is another death.

We don't need to wait to discuss that train.
Right now its likely Shaded was scum.

There was a hammer? I suppose we should wait to see if there is another death.

Since nothing interesting happened we should just keep going. If someone dies later we deal with it then. No reason to wait to see if something happens.

No I think we need to talk about it.

Here are my thoughts:

1. It doesn't look like it was a real claim. It kinda goes against the theme since iirc, people can be resurrected which would make it weird if the vengeful gets to veng twice.

2. Scum can take advantage of the vengeful thing and kill someone which would make it look like it was the veng.

3. SM prolly knew they would have a NO REVEAL, so we have to cut through the wifom that the no reveal creates.

4. I do believe that SM was scum because of the NO REVEAL.

5. We should know what if anything SM tapes were like ie. did they send any and did they receive any.

[LicketyQuickety]

We can bring penguin back iirc, but we don't know their role so we don't know if it would be worth it.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh see I was confused. I read firebringer saying he would kill lq or me, two players he townread, not understanding that he was speaking from the perspective of shaded, whom we presume to be scum. Serves me right for half reading while I watch simpsons..

Presuming he were scum...why did he kill pa, which was clearly the most pro town decision?

Wait, how was it the most Pro-Town decision? I have no idea where you are getting that from.

[LicketyQuickety]

I do. That was either the venge kill or night kill, doesn't confirm that Shaded was scum.

This ^

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: LQ

For restraining and trying to distance from Shadeds wagon

I never tried to distance from the SM wagon, I was on the fence about SM the whole time.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh see I was confused. I read firebringer saying he would kill lq or me, two players he townread, not understanding that he was speaking from the perspective of shaded, whom we presume to be scum. Serves me right for half reading while I watch simpsons..

Presuming he were scum...why did he kill pa, which was clearly the most pro town decision?

Wait, how was it the most Pro-Town decision? I have no idea where you are getting that from.

PA or marcrell was the towns consensus, no?

I'm just saying that for a scum vengeful he sure acted in towns interest. Which might mean not-scum.

What do you mean PA was the consensus?!?! PA Died almost right after they posted O.o

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Elbirn

[LicketyQuickety]

Who all saw PA as a strong town read? I don't think anyone really..

I think the part you're missing is that Scum can know who town is and who is a safe kill tho.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh see I was confused. I read firebringer saying he would kill lq or me, two players he townread, not understanding that he was speaking from the perspective of shaded, whom we presume to be scum. Serves me right for half reading while I watch simpsons..

Presuming he were scum...why did he kill pa, which was clearly the most pro town decision?

Wait, how was it the most Pro-Town decision? I have no idea where you are getting that from.

PA or marcrell was the towns consensus, no?

I'm just saying that for a scum vengeful he sure acted in towns interest. Which might mean not-scum.

What do you mean PA was the consensus?!?! PA Died almost right after they posted O.o

VOTE: Elbirn

Dafuq is this

Two names were being thrown out for the vengekill in the last page or so. Marcrell or pa. Do you know what consensus means?

What exactly is this vote based on?

Dude, there was one person that said they wanted PA dead and that person made a 180 on their read on me and is now voting me because I was on the fence about SM.

[LicketyQuickety]

In my personal experience scum usually go after a lurker. Killing a lurker is a really good play cuz you can't really pin the kill on anyone.

[LicketyQuickety]

How do we "know" that?

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd argue that PA was mutated in their death.

[LicketyQuickety]

NVM, it was SM that was mutated.

[LicketyQuickety]

Because I sorta think that we should decide as a group when to use it. Ideally we would want to use it on someone who we know the full role of and one that is a PR.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Fire

UNVOTE:

[LicketyQuickety]

Im busy.

Also, your request is declined. Do what bella does and sign -E.

Also since when do you sign espeon?

~Espeon1

Why was the request denied?

[LicketyQuickety]

@vyse, yeah you need to explain a lot of that post - why is gameplay doing better than sala for you? What's happening with your read on me? Can you explain the Elbirn read for us?

@Lq, why are you asking about that?

I think I am getting something wrong. I'll go back and check.

[LicketyQuickety]

Forgot to say smth about blank
If somedy insists I can dig into his iso and see the specific things that I disliked/felt scum. If not just read him( not a lot of posts) and judge for yourself.

I'll insist.

Forgot to say smth about blank
If somedy insists I can dig into his iso and see the specific things that I disliked/felt scum. If not just read him( not a lot of posts) and judge for yourself.

I'll insist.

I insist too.

Kk tho not today
I had enough with those 7 pages that I had to read
~U

@Emp Bella,

This is what I was talking about.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like how grapes hasn't said anything in a while. Didn't like their vote on SM either.

VOTE: grapes

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like Vyse, Morning Sun and Kling at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Kling, How many games are you currently playing?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Kling, How many games are you currently playing?

I'm alive in 3 (counting this one,) dead and observing another 4. Signed up for 1 more.

Are these on site?

[LicketyQuickety]

Klingoncelt considers being creepy a compliment.....
Okay then, I don't like you saying Marcell posting = Town.
What?

That is the oddest meta I have ever heard.
Next you will you will say posting a certain number of times in a given hour is scummy.

Have to agree with Fire on this one.

[LicketyQuickety]

Klingoncelt considers being creepy a compliment.....
Okay then, I don't like you saying Marcell posting = Town.
What?

That is the oddest meta I have ever heard.
Next you will you will say posting a certain number of times in a given hour is scummy.

Have to agree with Fire on this one.

Marc was on the Scumteam in DS9, Lickety. How many posts did he make D1?

I realize that. Now you are arguing with your scumread that their scumread is town O.o

[LicketyQuickety]

Now you are arguing with your scumread that their scumread is town O.o

Hey, I call 'em as I see 'em. If I think someone's Scum, I'll say so. If I think someone's Town, I'll say so.

That's not my point and you know that. My point is why are you going to try and convince a scum read that someone is Town? That is what doesn't make any sense. And since you failed to address that it makes you looks even more scummy. Plus I have not seen you scum hunt like at all this game and that is a pretty reliable tell that someone is scum no matter how experienced the player is.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

Well, you're obviously not having trouble getting reads because you just gave some townreads so...?

The lack of scumreads is a bit concerning. Feels like trying to find friends more than find scum.

Oh I'm trying to find Scum.

The players I know aren't doing anything Scummy and as far as I can tell the ones I don't know aren't either. I think this is one of those Day1s where someone has to jump up and down waving flags and posting in all caps before I guess that they might not be 100% Town.

Like if you could point out what you have done to find scum that would be swell thanks. Oh, wait, you don't have to answer that because I know by looking through your ISO that you have done jack squat to find scum.

VOTE: Kling

[LicketyQuickety]

Doing a quick ISO of grapes, I feel a lot better about a Town read on them.

[LicketyQuickety]

And I'm back to Null on Suzune.

[LicketyQuickety]

And given the feel of this game I feel its enough to say that Elb is probably town here. I see way too much Pro-Townness from him for the way this game is going.

[LicketyQuickety]

And @BlankFace, we need much more from you. I rather you play like you have a stick up your ass then the way you are playing this game. Its not exactly Pro-Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

And @BlankFace, we need much more from you. I rather you play like you have a stick up your ass then the way you are playing this game. Its not exactly Pro-Town.

And that's why you have votes and are a Null read for me.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like Vyse, Morning Sun and Kling at this point.

Talk to me about your reads on vyse and morning sun pleaz. Klingon we've gone over plenty. vyse gives me bad vibes but I have a tendency to get omgusy feels on people that push me so I'd like an outside perspective. Morning sun is still a townread.

Vyse is not at all coming across a genuine to me. Not only that, but they haven't exactly been the most active. They failed to see how they had a change in feel in one of their posts all the while defending that they can have different feels to their demeanor.

The Morning Sun read is because I feel like they very well could just be coasting off a town read they got early game. You have to admit there have been some issues with that slot and its giving me bad vibes.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I really don't like the Town read from Kling on Marcrell. For one it looks like its a crap reason for a Town read and two I can see Kling giving Marcrell a town read either as Marcrell being scum or Town. Either way it makes sense for Scum!Kling to make this read.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Morning Sun, you can assume it's just me here for now.

@Elb - I'm not saying it isn't important, I'm saying that we can't tell it from the kill - ofc scum wouldn't kill scum if he was scum, and if he was scum then the kill was gonna be made for mass confusion. I really didn't like the thought process - I did have a strong town-read on you, but your jumpiness over this is weird.

2 - BC I wouldn't think about it, and I wanted to discuss the thought. I'm bad at set-up shit and LQ seems way more into it (reviving, scum teams, messages) and I want to engage with people who think differently to me. What's scummy about different perspectives?

Also, 5 wagons and 5 votes now. :S

Okay, and my stance is pretty much this. Scum benefit from keeping us in the dark here. Tossing analysis of it out with "bah, wifom" sucks and accomplishes exactly that. We cut through that shit and go "okay that kill makes sense from a town perspective, we're still looking for 4 scum". That you also take time to chastise me for talking about this doesn't really make sense.

As for your talk with lq, it reads to me like pr fishing. But maybe I'm seeing things..

This really feels like Town vs Town to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

And @BlankFace, we need much more from you. I rather you play like you have a stick up your ass then the way you are playing this game. Its not exactly Pro-Town.

And that's why you have votes and are a Null read for me.

idgaf about the votes to be honest. MS vote is pointless until Gameplay comes in to give reasons.

I have to agree with you on this. No way Morning Sun and BF are both scum here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gameplay is most likely gone from the site, so I will have to replace out.

I'm going to read before I go though for my replacement.

Pretty much it looks like this:

Gameplay's scumreads: BF, Suzie, Fire
Sala's scumreads: Marcell, Shaded, PA (I guess Im really looking at lurkers today)

Gameplay's townreads: Vise, Marcell, Klingon
Sala's Townreads: Fire, Suzie, Grapes, Elbirn

~Espeon

Gameplay and I will not join the Klingon wagon today.
Gameplay doesn't want Marcell, despite his vote being total shit and doing little to nothing.

So we will settle on Shaded, and given that Its nightless and there haven't been any magic dayvig shots, we should weed out lurkers.

~Espeon.

These are the primary issues going on with this Hydra @Elbirn. I can't tell if its staged or not and that is why I don't like it. They are apparently disagreeing on a ton of reads.. It is either genuinely different points of view and they are obv Town or it is feigned to look like their reads are all over the place so that they can never look guilty for their stance on anyone as Scum. I will say this: I don't think anyone should be sheeping this Hydra with the amount of chaos that their reads alone have ensued.

[LicketyQuickety]

FWIW I think the 4 Scum are within:

Emp Bella: Espionage is not at all pushing any kind of Lynch.
Marcrell: Has done nothing all game
Kling: Pretty ObvScum to me at least. No scum hunting, her cases on people suck, not playing Pro-Town, has only excuses, isn't taking a strong stance like in the other games they are in, what more do you want?
Vyse: Posts so infrequently that if they didn't make sense, it would just be too obvious
BlankFace: Same reason as Vyse.

[LicketyQuickety]

K, after going over EmpBella's ISO I think they are Scum. They're reads are pretty wonky and they are not really pushing any of their scum reads. I think Kling should die first, but I'd be delighted to see either of these two go honestly.

[LicketyQuickety]

Prodge. Finally have a day off tomorrow to go do a read through.

Still waiting for an answer too.

I do. That was either the venge kill or night kill, doesn't confirm that Shaded was scum.

This is where BF said he would have time to post next day and he only made this one post. Don't like it.

@Bella - Quick summary is that Sala is making a bunch of pushes I don't care for, while Gameplay made sense even when I disagreed with him, so I liked his half of the hydra enough to give them a light Town read. I'm getting meh on you because I don't see you growing much beyond the initial pattern I'd noted, but it's not something I'm feeling particularly strongly about at the moment. I mostly just posted because I tend to set my thoughts on the table, and because I needed a reminder to check into you. (Putting that for after I refresh myself on the basic game, and why I'm scumreading Elbirn so strongly.)

@LQ, while I'm on & working stuff out, can you tell me why you think I'm not genuine, and why inactivity is factoring into your reads at all? I'd really like an explanation on that. (also, here's a scumgame, here's a recent Town. Tell me which one I'm more active in. I'll give you the whole list, if you think I'm being selective. I do have active Towngames, but when real life stuff happens, as it always does anymore, I've learned that it's so much easier to make stuff up than to actually solve the game. Honestly kinda frustrated with people pushing this.

That'll be all about me for now, I think. Mostly getting this up because it's an easy warmup to start engaging with the game again.

Not good enough. Again, this is the second time you say you don't understand what I say and proceed to give reasons why that doesn't matter.

So at this point I have EmpBella, Kling, Vyse and BF as Scum. BF is really the only one I could see as town here. The others are just not pulling their weight, but I feel BF can do 10X better than this.

[LicketyQuickety]

Now you are arguing with your scumread that their scumread is town O.o

Hey, I call 'em as I see 'em. If I think someone's Scum, I'll say so. If I think someone's Town, I'll say so.

That's not my point and you know that. My point is why are you going to try and convince a scum read that someone is Town? That is what doesn't make any sense. And since you failed to address that it makes you looks even more scummy. Plus I have not seen you scum hunt like at all this game and that is a pretty reliable tell that someone is scum no matter how experienced the player is.

I think you misunderstand a certain nuance.

I'm not trying to convince Scum that someone is Town, they already know that. I'm trying to convince Town that Scum is lying.

If they try to portray one of my strong townreads as Scum, what should I do? Sit quietly and hope all the other Townies are paying attention and taking notes?

Well I guess its your word against mine at this point and people need to chose who to believe.

[LicketyQuickety]

Stupid weather. I'm having connection issues, and I've been falling asleep waiting for WiFi to get a post in, so I'm just going to copy & paste what thoughts I have here, and call it a night.

I think the thing that gets to me the most in reading this thread is how many times it stalls in a morass of stuff that...well, honestly, I don't really care about. We have buzzwords flying all over the place - AtE, 'Misunderstandings', Inactivity, overreactions, 'slyly pushing mislynches', "Anti-Town play" (I hate that last buzzword in particular, to be honest.) However, the context behind these buzzwords is either incredibly flimsy, or completely irrelevant to actual alignments.

I think it be worth linking to this Mafia Discussion Thread about buzzwords & the like. It's not that they're always invalid, so much as frequently abused, and I believe this thread in particular would find it worth a look. (For instance, I tend to use meta a heck of a lot, with decent results, though I'm better able to gauge players I've actually played with 'live', than games I read after the fact.) I particularly recommend Brian Skies Post #21, but I can't exactly quote it here due to size.

Actually, having reread the thread in full, I'm particularly curious to hear from Elbirn now. His post there seems to agree with my reasons for scumreading him.

Occam's Razor:

"I don't want to overthink this game but I want to be justified for taking the path of least resistance."

WIFOM:

"I can't accurately assess if you're rusing me or not."

IIOA:

"Nice points but I'd like to disregard them."

Meta:

"Because you've played other games on site, I want to add perceived validity to whatever my point is."

It's like you're me.

AtE & "slying pushing mislynches", Elbirn? How would you describe those two phrases, if not similar to these buzzwords here? Why am I wrong for thinking you should know better, again?

Then there are the gambits, based at best on quirks & personal tells I don't care much for, or at worst, less than that. (These enjoy a particularly irked spot in my heart after I got tunneled the entirety of the last game I played based on somebody trying to pull a gambit on me to find my alignment. He actually had some really good stuff mixed into his read, but the end result was that I was Town, and just barely survived by fighting his scumread on me tooth & nail with the other players, since he was so confident he was completely ignoring me.)

Honestly, I don't care about most any of this, because, in my experience & opinions, none of this is particularly relevant to alignment. The main things I look for is what interests people, when it interests them, and why. It's something I call 'direciton' & 'positioning', because scum's goal are ultimately different from the Town's. Town needs to lynch scum, scum need to survive until they equal Town, with mislynches & NKs to aid them. So, look for the people trying to blend in, the people aiming to look Town, rather than solve the game. (It goes a bit deeper than that, because there's an essentially infinite number of strategies for scum to do this, but I don't want this rant to get too long. It just takes flexibility & commonsense to get around most of them.)

In other words, anybody can look like Town when the spotlight is on them. The question is, how do they start acting when they're not aiming for Towncred. Do they still Towntell, or does it fade? How about when their strategy suddenly falters, without warning? (I'm rambling now, so I'll cut this off here.)

Sometimes, having such a different perspective than the rest of the game is helpful for me, because it lets me take an outside perspective while scum are playing to their audience. Usually, they don't really 'get it' anymore than I do thanks to knowing alignments, but they're busy looking for openings & vulnerabilities rather than solving the game. This time, I've had a bit of trouble, just because it's tricky to get a grasp on the narrative, and specifically, what people think is important as a group. It doesn't help that I haven't been able to obsess over the game like I used to, when I first started playing Mafia. That's why

---

That does all lead into the scumread I have on Elbirn. It's a matter of his play not following the personality I've seen from him, as well as resembling a chess game more than the typical paranoid Townie. (And even more experienced Townies are paranoid. They're just better at controlling it.)

You don't always want to go straight for the target in any strategy game, but this is particularly true of Mafia, where scum are trying to present an image. Mislynches are nice, but secondary to survival, which (ironically) is why bussing is such a common strategy. (And I love manipulating scum into bussing early. )

Elbirn stands out because of the manner of his read on Klingon, in particular. It's not that Klingon is some impressive bastion of Town play, because frankly, she's not in the least. However, Elbirn is consistently reframing the narrative in the case he had on her that I dissected earlier. Calling someone out for as bad a suggestion as auto-lynching replacements is fair, however, calling it a 'sly push for easy mislynches' is a ridiculous stretch. This is the kind of thing that would never get massive support outside of a particularly crazy Town, and Elbirn's been around a while. I find it very hard to believe that he thought this was actually remotely plausible, or that Klingon would think that way. Frankly, if anyone's 'slyly pushing mislynches', I would believe it was Elbirn.

I've also frequently seen scum use that line before, in exactly the same manner. Your mileage may vary, but it's something I dislike very strongly about his play.

Outside of Klingon, he's constantly feeling out various lines of thought - and I don't entirely have too much problem with people pushing a bunch of reads & all that. It's part of solving the game. The problem is the 'feeling out' part of the statement, because he's constantly directing suspicion outward, and looking at where it sticks - it's too efficient, for lack of a better term. As a general rule, Townies are the hypocrital, paranoid messes that don't know what they're doing. Elbirn is too polished, too Town on the surface, and not enough when you actually look for any depth.

Perhaps think of it this way - A famous bank robber is asked why he robs banks, and he just shrugs and says "That's where the money's at". It's kinda like that in Mafia. Town cred is worth more than gold in this game, and scum are naturally going to gravitate to where they know to find it. Good play is good play, nothing more, at least outside of context. Same with bad/inactive play. Effort is not indicative of alignment, to steal the line. Honestly, Klingon hasn't impressed me this game, but neither has the case against her - If she's scum, I think it's going to be for different reasons than the ones brought against her to day. (There's a reason I'm pressuring her for reads, and such. I want to see her commit, instead of continue what I believe is just a mutually bad tunnel.)

Or let me put this another way. Keeping my theory in mind, can someone look through his play & tell me what's so Townlike about it? I honestly don't think it'll be easy to come up with all that much, if you actually dissect it. I honestly don't see it. I see him going through the motions of Townreading people & pushing the game forward, but these things aren't particularly alignment indicative on their own. These things are just basic good play for either alignment. Where are the signs of any depth to his posts? Why is he hard-pressing Klingon based on "AtE" & "Sly pushes", when they resemble the same buzzwords he dismissed outside the game thread? (And I know they're technically different buzzwords from the quote I linked & all, but it's the same logic. If the four Elbirn mentioned are shallow & useless, what makes these two any different?)

I don't know. I always have a lot of trouble getting my thoughts across to people, because a lot of it is intuitive, and it's hard to convince people who don't also have a similar intuitive take on things. Sometimes, I even rely on buzzwords myself, to sort of sum up my thoughts, particularly when they just start forming. ('Genuine' is a word I use a lot, for instance.) The thing is, I can always go deeper into them when I have to do so, and it's a constant growing process. I don't see that coming from Elbirn.

Elbirn stands out to me the most, because I'm constantly seeing him hitting the basic level 'Towntells' - the ones that remotely experiences scum know to hit, and are very fakeable - and those Towntells don't combine to make a pattern or flow.

Does any of this make sense? Please?

Other reads later. I'm tired, I'm rambling & repeating myself, and I've spent enough time on MS for one night.

This is all fine and well, but I don't see how this makes your case on anyone that much stronger. I'd say its both IIoA and going against Occam's Razor at the same time. I'd really like to know why you find Elb "scummy".

[LicketyQuickety]

Stupid weather. I'm having connection issues

Goodness do you live near me. I have been having the worst weather lately. The last thing one wants to do is walk to the train in the rain wearing heels...not fun.

I think the thing that gets to me the most in reading this thread is how many times it stalls in a morass of stuff that...well, honestly, I don't really care about. We have buzzwords flying all over the place - AtE, 'Misunderstandings', Inactivity, overreactions, 'slyly pushing mislynches', "Anti-Town play" (I hate that last buzzword in particular, to be honest.) However, the context behind these buzzwords is either incredibly flimsy, or completely irrelevant to actual alignments.

I tend to think that this is a normal part of mafia in general. They are the kinds of things you talk about when you are trying to understand someone. The trick is figuring out how to poke people to yield the best results therefore I think that there is a good gambit in accusing someone of playing anti-town...I recently had a fight with someone about that.

I will look through Elbin's play but I currently do not find it particularly scummy. I find it interesting though that you wrote a five paragraph rant about buzzwords and how their context is too flimsy but then used them as the anchor in your case...

I'm taking a mental note of what you say here Suzune.

[LicketyQuickety]

Can you show me a couple of his Town/Scum games, just so I can get a feel for him? (This offer is obviously open to Elbirn too.)

Like, I don't know. My read on Blankface last game was similar, and backfired hard, but at the same time, there's kinda a lot here.

How are you still a goon? Also I think it would be a really good idea for you to start a wiki on yourself. I might just be doing on for you if after this game I feel you impressed me in some way.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ - Ugh. You realize you're just going in circles now. You're not being clear, ergo I misunderstand you dude. Chill.

@Kling - Do me a favor & ignore LQ for a moment. What are your reads, and why? Why does Marcrell posting make him Town?

I'm doing my reads tonight. (I'll finally have some time to devote to them.)

I've been Scum with Marc before. He made a couple of greeting/rvs posts, then flaked. It's my understanding that it's his usual Scum meta. So as long as he's posting, he's leaning Town. Leaning, not solid.

Really I don't think you have enough meta on him, lets be honest here.

[LicketyQuickety]

There's little to alleviate. Your read is bland and still doesn't interest me.

Someone ask me something to try and help me get engaged. Because I tried to do a reread and all it did was make me feel like my brain was turning to mush.

Ok, I'll ask you something. What happened to your spirit? You don't seem the same player that you were in that first day I was lynched. What happened?

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ - Ugh. You realize you're just going in circles now. You're not being clear, ergo I misunderstand you dude. Chill.

@Kling - Do me a favor & ignore LQ for a moment. What are your reads, and why? Why does Marcrell posting make him Town?

I'm doing my reads tonight. (I'll finally have some time to devote to them.)

I've been Scum with Marc before. He made a couple of greeting/rvs posts, then flaked. It's my understanding that it's his usual Scum meta. So as long as he's posting, he's leaning Town. Leaning, not solid.

Really I don't think you have enough meta on him, lets be honest here.

In that he flaked, no I don't have a lot.

Exactly, you were in one game where he flaked.. not exactly a lot of info on the guy.

[LicketyQuickety]

Here's my reads list:

TOWN
Klingoncelt
Morning Sun

LEAN TOWN
BlankFace
Elbirn
Marcrell
Suzune
VysePresident

NULL
Empoleon Bellapatre - Bella leans Town, Nage looks Scummy
Grapes

SCUM
Firebringer
LicketyQuickety


for what it's worth.

I'll be back late tonight.

Why is Fire Scum?

[LicketyQuickety]

I have an idea! Lets Lynch Kling!

[LicketyQuickety]

Lickety I already explained this to Fire, but I can do it again. A lynch does not get us anywhere unless we think this through first. All we do when we lynch is remove more voices we are unable to tell if they are town or scum because of the non-flip. Therefore, we should step back and use our time to analyze so we can make more educated lynches.

Except we DON'T know that every lynch is no flip.

[LicketyQuickety]

Lickety I already explained this to Fire, but I can do it again. A lynch does not get us anywhere unless we think this through first. All we do when we lynch is remove more voices we are unable to tell if they are town or scum because of the non-flip. Therefore, we should step back and use our time to analyze so we can make more educated lynches.

Except we DON'T know that every lynch is no flip.

We don't? The only reason we got a flip for that second one was because of the ability yes? Assume for a minute that Melee was mafia according to the sample pm in the opening. The only reason we know the second was human was because of the ability. Therefore, we are no better then a mafia faction if we kill haphazardly in order to hopefully see a result. A result we cannot guarantee. Everyone is posting on this topic, therefore, I believe it is wise to study the topic.

Okay, so I can't read apparently. The first post does say they range from no reveal to full reveal.

Look, it very well could have been the nature of the role that SM had that there was No-Reveal.

Kling is like the most obvious Scum I have ever seen. The only opposition to lynching him at this point is that she is lynchbait. I went a and looked at their profile and looked at all their posts on the first page. This is not Town!Kling.

[LicketyQuickety]

Why is Fire Scum?

His confusion and panic on Day 2. Firebringer doesn't do confused and he never panics. He's the Sheriff Jailkeeper type.

You do realize no one has really been suspicious of Fire accept you right? So looking back why do you think Fire was freaking out? I have a theory and that is that he was legit confused.

[LicketyQuickety]

Kling is like the most obvious Scum I have ever seen. The only opposition to lynching him at this point is that she is lynchbait. I went a and looked at their profile and looked at all their posts on the first page. This is not Town!Kling.

I am lynchbait because no one can get a grip on my meta. My playstyle changes from game to game, even from day to day, depending on Real Life situations.

Lets be honest here.. no ones meta is unreadable and I don't care if that has to do with rl or not. Part of my case on you is that you are behaving differently in this game than your other current games.

[LicketyQuickety]

This game will rely much more heavily on reading through the lines then others. that is why I think the town needs to be the one to control the flow of information. This is think the the goal of the tapes to pass information. For example if you passed a tape to me. I would add to it and pass the original message to the next person who was a pretty good choice for town. This keeps all of us on the same page and we can see the messages from the others. This would take two things though coordination and to trust the people we were sending too. In a game like this trust will be everything. The biggest risk is the first person to send the tape will not be able to see the messages until it comes around again. meaning they will be in the dark for the longest period of time. It might not be the wisest strategy but it is the one I am looking at currently.

Very good idea.

The problem is deciding who is trusted and who isn't. A trusts B and C, but doesn't trust D. A passes a tape to B, who forwards the message to C. C trusts D so he sends the message on to her. A was right in not trusting D, D is Scum and now D has A, B, and C's information.

I suggest limiting the size of trusted groupings, at least for now.

The tapes are meant to be passed anonymously. Without that they lose their purpose. The whole purpose of the tapes is to be used in secrecy.

[LicketyQuickety]

The tapes are meant to be passed anonymously. Without that they lose their purpose. The whole purpose of the tapes is to be used in secrecy.

This is a limited perspective. If we knew who they were going to we could all talk as a town. Create a kind of neighborhood. This would allow those who were townie to keep track and store information. I think you limit their use if you say they have to be secret. This is just thinking outside the box.

My point is they should be used anonymously AT FIRST. Later, we will have to sort through who sent what tapes to who and what was on the tapes. This will help in catching Scum in a lie -trust me on this.

[LicketyQuickety]

I assume that tapes are a one shot ability. Which means we can only send two total all game. The mafia would pass tapes anonymously not the town. The town has no reason to hide from each other. The mafia would already know who the townies are in theory. Therefore, if the town hordes information and does not use it we are wasting potential. The town is a team, I want to find a way for us to use the tapes wisely. What do you want us to do, hold them until end game because that seems like kind of a waste. I am not saying we have to rush out and use them right away but I think we should neighborhood with them a little.

You are neglecting something though. Do you really think that 4nxi3ty would have the tapes in the game for such a simple purpose? My guess is that there is a role in the game that does something to reveal who sent tape or reveal tapes that were sent or something like that. I am playing with this in mind. Everyone should be playing with this in mind. I don't think the messages from the tapes are really as secret as it appears to put it bluntly.

[LicketyQuickety]

I am one of those who likes everything out in the open.
Tapes are for gambits. (at least that is what I am getting their intended purpose is)
I don't like gambits as town. 9 out of 10 times they fail.

So you see why I don't like them?

Also just because you have a resource, doesn't mean you should use it.
If I had a vigilante shot, I wouldn't just shoot someone just because I had the ability too.
You have to analyze the Cost Risk Analysis.

For tapes their appears to be no Cost obviously to using them, but relying on them and basing this game on them. Is definitely a risk.

Fire, why do you think there are tapes in this game? Keep in mind we are in a game where the creator of this game has won an award for best original setup.

[LicketyQuickety]

That is a terrible analogy. There is a time and a place for vig shots, however depending on how they are used and when in the game they are used they are often gambits. A vig should play the shot when it is time to do it. All I am suggesting is that the tapes should be used because they were not placed in the game as a haphazard. The assume the game is balanced. Therefore it is on us as town. I believe they have a purpose and it should be something worth suggesting. Everying in mafia is a risk, a risk of protecting a mafia, a risk of roleblocking a townie. All of these are problems. However, we accept that those are acceptable risks. I believe if we don't use the tools at our disposal we waste them. As I mentioned I am not saying go out and use them, just suggesting.

I will stop pushing it now like a petulant child looking to be heard. So no need to continue to fight it. Goodness though everyone...

I am 100% in agreement with Suzune on this Fire.

[LicketyQuickety]

Wait are we positive that Shaded was town?

I don't know site meta to know how often Vengeful Town is in games, but it sounds like a extremely anti town role. I feel like Shaded was scum.

Also, I am starting to think with others that only Shaded flip was hidden? I don't know. Thats where I am at.

From the Devils' sample role PM (post 0): "Turn the other cheek so I may kiss it with my fangs.": You are vengeful. If you die you may pick a player to kill (24 hours to submit or action won't count). This kill will flip with name and alignment reveal.

I think Shaded was Scum.

See this right here is just wrong. She left out a very key part to the vengeful kill and that is that their Kill will mutilate (IIRC, No Reveal) the target.

"It wasn't just the birds. All sorts of little critters started turning up broken, bellies to the sky. Nothing natural about it."

LicketyQuickety

(1)

- Morning Sun
Marcrell

(1)

- Firebringer

Not voting: Empoleon Bellapatre, Suzune, Elbirn, Marcrell, Morning Sun, Firebringer, LicketyQuickety, Klingoncelt, VysePresident, BlankFace, grapes

penguin_alien was Killed,

Olivia Hamilton

,

Human

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-21 18:55:30)