New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)
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Tammy Survivor
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Awe thanks! You can welcome me greatly though by taking your vote off my slot. Hey Magua...great theory...awesome...though wrong it is. (I mean I've read this page and the previous page, don't know if it's backed up with anything more wonderful than this. All I know is I've drawn my favorite role (VT) and I don't have to pretend about it because for some reason you guys...massclaimed??? On day two??? I hate you all for the record.)
More to come...-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 36, havingfitz wrote:
Fact: Ghostlin is a confirmed neighborizer and is therefore (IMO) town. I have never played in a game where the person doing the neighborizing was scum, therefore...for me...Ghostlin is town. Unless Ghostlin and his selected neighbor are all scum working together on a master gambit which I doubt is the case.
Sorry in advance if I'm parroting all over the place (this goes for everything...just gonna do it once...I'm going through the thread...so yeah...)
Are you serious??? Do you really think a neighborizer is comfy town? Really???-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 356, Magua wrote:In post 353, Tammy wrote:Oh...and Magua...totally exhilarating...it's been awhile since I've been actually suspected for somethingreal in a game....though not really...hmnmm...
I know the bolded statement to be false. So kindly elucidate (when you've read) what "something real" means to you.
Do you now...this is false. I mean I've been suspected by something actually real...which in the case you've bolded me for is false.
I mean you can play it what ever way you want to...doesn't actually mean anything now does it.
What I mean by the bolded is it's been a long damn time since I've had anything but paranoiac ramblings tossed at me in a game. So what that someone in a game here has suspected me...does not mean it's real cuz it's not true.
Do you think I'm stupid? Seriously, give me more credit than that.
I find it practically exhilarating to prove myself in some scummy slot...is all. :shrug:-
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Tammy Survivor
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 356, Magua wrote:In post 353, Tammy wrote:Oh...and Magua...totally exhilarating...it's been awhile since I've been actually suspected for somethingreal in a game....though not really...hmnmm...
I know the bolded statement to be false. So kindly elucidate (when you've read) what "something real" means to you.
Oh damn...should not play late at night when I can't make sense of anything. Something real means something that I've actually done to warrant suspicion in a game - you stopped your bold too soon Magua - the real part of the statement is the most important part. Bold all you want...won't matter. Your theory on the SK is wrong, cause it's not me.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 36, havingfitz wrote:
I assume there is an SK. Iirc I assumed there was an SK even before DarthYoshi claimed FBI investigator but I can't recall why I assumed it. I know I was leaning town on DY before he claimed so therefore I am inclined to believe his claim. IMO his claim supports the existence of an SK, though the continued lack of a 2nd NK 3 nights in a row is causing me to rethink my SK assumption a bit. Verdict...I think DY is town but he could be scum. If he is scum, I think he is the sk.
All right so what do you think of this theory in light of Magua's theory that Snakesplisken (me now) is the SK?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 36, havingfitz wrote:
Misc: Kamrun is someone I suspect. Especially given his block on the claimed bodyguard last night. His claim of jailkeeper would be a convenient claim for a roleblocker to make and the fact he was neighbored by Ghostlin means nothing.
What does the fact that he was neighborized by Ghostlin have to do with anything?
Seriously, I wish you guys had an easier quote function thingy for those of us who are technologically incapable...just saying.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 364, Magua wrote:Hey. Tammy.
I see you're still responding to things that have been said, rather than reading the 14 pages.
So I'll start easier.
Look at Zach's OP. Note the different kill flavors for camn and everyone else. Do you think there's an SK in this game?
If you don't, kindly explain what you think causes the kill flavor difference.
If you do think there's an SK in this game, kindly read the 14 previous pages and tell me who you think it is.
*pout* I am reading the last 14 pages. I'm a little bit of a slow reader, it's late, and I'm multitasking...
As far as whether or not I think there's an SK in the game...I haven't got a clue. I don't know about site differences, and if there's an SK in a game where I'm from it's advertised...we don't have to guess about this stuff.
However, you're right. Camn was murdered, while Baseline, Jason and Kamrun were shot dead. Yes, their deaths were different. Do you really think it's the cause of a serial killer though? Why weren't there more than one kill per night? I've only played one game that there was a SK in, so I don't know why they wouldn't kill.
(Totally wish I was it by the way. Way more awesome than trying to prove I'm not.)-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 366, Alicewondering wrote:In post 365, Tammy wrote:(Totally wish I was it by the way. Way more awesome than trying to prove I'm not.)
You've repeated this a million times. It isn't going to make me believe you more.
SK's are not necessarily advertised in the setup.
UMMM Hai..are you saying that I've said I'm not SK...which I'm not...a million times, or that I've repeated that I don't know the set up - which would possibly include an SK - that I probably wouldn't since I just signed up a million times?
Or is this hyperbole?-
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Tammy Survivor
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Since, you believe there is an SK, can you account for there not being two kills each night?
If you answer this is your wall...never mind I'll get there.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 369, Alicewondering wrote:I'm saying that you've insisted you're not SK. You've shown much interest in "proving yourself" rather than actually reading the thread and hunting for scum. But yes, the million times is a hyperbole.
Tammy, did you even read his case on Snake being SK? Snake has basically flaked on the whole game, which would explain his not submitting NAs. This would mean that a mafia kill did not go through on N1, where Kamrun probably protected someone (I forgot), or MOI protected DV I believe.
Yeah, I did read it, but read it backwards, which should be pretty clear since I said that Magua had a great theory. The only thing I know is my alignment, and his theory doesn't fit. So...there is a sum total of two posts by my predecessor in this thread, how am I supposed to get anything based off of that?
Are you telling me that my predecessor has flaked the entire game? You guys are in day five, correct? Are you telling me that he has been so incompetent for the entirety of five whole days that he couldn't submit one night kill? In five days? That should be four kills, correct? So, there should be at least more than one per night as has been recorded. You're telling me he's so incompetent he couldn't get it right at least one night?
Please tell me your not building your entire case on this.-
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Tammy Survivor
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No seriously....
Players Dead:
RedCoyote Vanilla Townie turned Neutral Survivor Modkilled day 1
camn Vanilla Townie murdered night 1
Palisade Vanilla Townie lynched day 2
Baseline Vanilla Townie shot dead night 2
I Am Innocent Mafia Goon lynched day 3
ZmuffinMan Vanilla Cop shot dead night 3.
JasonT1981 Mafia Watcher lynched day 4
Kamrun Town Jailkeeper shot dead night 4
Please tell me how your theory of Snake...(me) as a serial killer fits here. I mean it's a wonderful theory and all...built up from the ground, it just doesn't fit with the evidence now does it. Sure the flavor of the kills is different, but please explain to me why there isn't more than one kill per night. Has anyone claimed guarding my VT character? NO? Oh geeze, I wonder why not. Perhaps that's because I don't have the capability to kill people at night.
And yeah, Magua, sure, me saying "welp, not me" doesn't prove a thing except it's the truth, and you really haven't proven why it actually isn't the truth.
But yeah, put some more of your valuable votes on my wagon...that makes sense...you should probably speed lynch me before I get a chance to really read the thread and make sense of it.
Oh and Alice...I don't think that wordacronymmeans what you think it means.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 36, havingfitz wrote:
One of Alice and Jason are probably lying. I do not think there is a tracker AND a watcher. That combined with the fact they have both at one time or another raised my suspicions. Of the two of them I am probably leaning towards Jason as being the fakeclaimer based on the fact he (iirc) claimed way early when he didn't need to. Though as I type this...if I recall...Alice claimed when she didn't have to at all. But Alice's circumstances were more believable so I go back to leaning towards hers being legit vs jasons. If they are both telling the truth I will be at a loss for words. I know we are still waiting to hear Jason's 2nd visitor from N1. How his D4 starts will probably determine whether I vote him or not.
Do you think you could recall the circumstances of this claim for me?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 373, Alicewondering wrote:Yeah, that's what we're saying. If there's an SK, Snake's the only possibility for him. Look at his previous posts. He really has not been online that much. It's not a matter of incompentency--it's a matter of real world issues. Now you're just trying to WIFOM.
More votes on Tammy errybody.
So, the post in which he votes for someone and the post in which he asks to replace out?
All right. You make a world of sense.
<-----------Not as easy of a target as you seem to think I am btw.-
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Tammy Survivor
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All right let's try this again. So sorry for nonsense posts - really should remember to eat dinner before going to the neighbor's party to avoid brain shutting down. I have no idea what I was trying to say up there. *idiot*
Really hate mass claims as I almost always get stuck with a role that makes me look bad or no role which also makes me look bad *see here*. Also, the roles tend to be used to figure out alignment rather than behavior which is just meh.
That being said it looks like there's a tracker, a neighborizer, an FBI agent (investigator?), a watered down finder, a jailkeeper, a bodyguard, and a two shot healer? Hmmm in a sea of VTs. Sounds a bit overpowered for town. Are roles distributed randomly here? So the vanilla cop and JK were definitely town. Still looks overpowered. At least one of those roles belong to team evil, or one of the VTs is lying *welp, not me*.
Is anyone alive CI'd?
I still don't know what to make of the SK theory; there should be at least one night that there was more than one kill.
When my head stops pounding I'll read the thread and try to make sense of the SK theory.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 379, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
So instead of doing just that and taking your time reading you have been responding to every little post from an ill-informed position?
Tammy wrote: That being said it looks like there's a tracker, a neighborizer, an FBI agent (investigator?),a watered down finder, a jailkeeper, a bodyguard, and a two shot healer? Hmmm in a sea of VTs. Sounds a bit overpowered for town. Are roles distributed randomly here? So the vanilla cop and JK were definitely town. Still looks overpowered. At least one of those roles belong to team evil, or one of the VTs is lying *welp, not me*.
Why does the bolded appear in your list when no-one has claimed anything of the sort?
Yeah, shouldn't have done that. I tend to cycle through threads and comment as I go through, but I shouldn't have done that in this case. I was operating under an incorrect assumption that the thread started at day 5 and didn't realize I was wrong until I got to the Tracker/Watcher thing. That and replacing into a game so late without having a clear picture, it was stupid of me not to adjust my normal approach. (That and the wine I drank on an empty stomach hit me a lot harder than I expected it to and was getting worse as I was reading. I mean I can form a coherent sentence even when I'm scum.)
The watered down finder is the vanilla cop. As I understand it, it just tells you if someone is vanilla, right? Doesn't actually tell you what role they have if not vanilla therefore is not a full-fledged finder.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 380, Alicewondering wrote:
Maybe you're just mad Snake didn't do a better fakeclaim for you. VT shouldn't look bad unless you are suspicious.
Yeah, I feel like a Tammy lynch is good. Maybe we should just speedlynch her and ask questions tomorrow so that scum has less to work with.
Thank you. I didn't know what an FBI Agent was.
Why would I be mad at Snake? He didn't fakeclaim anything. VT doesn't look bad except some people think it's cause for autolynching.
Speedlynching me would just be silly. You'd be lynching a vanilla townie anyway, not your serial killer or a member of the mafia.
I'm making my way through the thread right now, but seeing as how you have an FBI Agent, why don't you just have him investigate me tonight? The results will come back not a serial killer.-
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Tammy Survivor
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Tammy Survivor
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Yes, I understand that. I was trying to make sense of which action resolved first. At my site, if two guards target each other they basically just stare at each other because their actions resolve simultaneously. However, there are other roles that resolve in a specific order and that determines who blocks, heals, etc.-
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Tammy Survivor
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All right finally done. This has been an interesting experiment. I've never replaced into a game so late before and with so little information; reads are also hard to get as I get my reads mostly from interaction I have with people rather than reading.
This incarnation of the thread began at day 4, correct? After I Am Innocent was lynched on day 3? Did anyone do any potential partner analysis or wagon analysis on Innocent? If so, do you recall what your most likely assumptions were and why? I don't see much of that in the case of Jason either. The only thing I remember is the wagon analysis MoI did to show Alice why the theory of DV being his partner doesn't work due to the competing wagons.
So, during Jason's lynching he claims to have caught DV making a kill and tries to remind everyone that redff has been a suspect for the SK role. Now either he was pulling one of those last "I'll throw crap at my partner to get people to think he's not my partner thing" or he was just going after an easy target. Don't really know what to do with DV. He seems rather jumpy and the not wanted to be tracked thing is a bit weird. Sure, he explains it, but not wanting someone to verify your claim, at least as much as is possible, is odd.
However, the fact that he claims that he was thinking about a fake claim makes me feel lots better about him. I don't know why someone said that town doesn't fake claim; they do it all the time. There was no reason for him to say that he was thinking about a fake claim if he's scum. Admitting to something like this is a thing I've only ever seen from town. It's not impossible to come from scum, but still I have a weak town read on him.
HF - Really think he would have backed off the DV thing by now if he were scum, particularly since it's not picking up any steam.
Darth Yoshi is town. His posts read town to me as does his concern over MoI still being alive. The only time I've ever gotten a reaction like this in a game, in which players are getting paranoid and suggesting I should be lynched out of paranoia that I'm still alive days after they think I should be dead, is from town. This reads as town driven paranoia and his interaction with Alice reads as town driven frustration.
What I find odd is MoI's reaction to his suspicion. When MoI replaced into the Kirby game, and he said who would probably be scum if they remained alive for too many more days with the player list, he said that he would say the same thing about himself. So if he knows he's going to get suspicion when he remains alive for a little while, why does he seem surprised or frustrated by it? (Although he handles it a lot better than I do when it happens to me.)
I want to have a town read on MoI, but can't quite get there. Mostly it's because the impression that I get from his scumhunting is that it's a bit too objective in presentation...too focused on verifiables that while are important are a really safe place for scum to hunt. I need to think about this one.
Other than that strong town reads include Alice and Magua. Alice because of role purposes and behavior. Magua by way of Ghostlin, and because he's rude - which I tend to associate with town. Yes, Magua I finished reading the thread. Are you rude because you think I'm scum, or is this just your natural play?
Haven't decided what I think about redff and jonh61. Leaning town on jon and not town on red at the moment though.
Vote: Nobody Special
NS is my best candidate for scum though. Other suspicions about him have already been talked about namely his testing the waters to see if anyone would buy the Alice was bussing Jason thing. Two other things stuck out to me though, and that was his overexplanation in 155 for why he was suddenly being helpful in the game and lack of pretty much anything else. One of the last things NS says is that there's no way he and DV can be scum together in post 333, which is just an odd post altogether.-
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Tammy Survivor
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Oh meant to mention the SK thing. I have no idea. I've only played in one game before with a serial killer and it was advertised as such. Do you guys routinely not know the setup to your games? I've never played in a multi-factional game and that information not given out beforehand. It doesn't make much sense as that kind of information is necessary so that you can adequately judge the players behavior.
I don't know what to make of the different flavors of the killings. Jason dropped a gun when he died right? Did Innocent also drop a gun? I would imagine the last killer would have a gun as well because Kamrun was shot like the other two. How do you all perform night kills here? At my site typically the entire scum faction completes the kill as one. They can also use whatever roles they have and kill simultaneously. However, once in a game I modded I limited the use of roles and kills so that one had to perform the kill alone if the other used their role. Is the night kill submitted as a team here or is it submitted individually? If it's submitted individually, is it possible that not everyone has the same type of killing power?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 397, redFF wrote:Jason dropped a gun when he died right? Did Innocent also drop a gun? I would imagine the last killer would have a gun as well because Kamrun was shot like the other two.
How are you so sure there are 3 "killers"?
I'm not. You started with 18 players though. Three killers in an 18 player game is what I'm accustomed to.
I forgot about the balance discussion earlier in which MoI and Magua talked abou what was typical for this site.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 399, Magua wrote:
Tammy wrote:Magua by way of Ghostlin, and because he's rude - which I tend to associate with town. Yes, Magua I finished reading the thread. Are you rude because you think I'm scum, or is this just your natural play?
That's not rudeness. That's condescension. I'm condescending towards bad play (<--- ok,thatmight be rude). Replacing in and saying, "Guys, don't vote me, I'm not scum" repeatedly is bad play.
Fair enough. It was bad play; I admit. I occasionally have bad mafia days where my play is suboptimal...that was one of them.
Tammy wrote:
Vote: Nobody Special
NS is my best candidate for scum though. Other suspicions about him have already been talked about namely his testing the waters to see if anyone would buy the Alice was bussing Jason thing. Two other things stuck out to me though, and that was his overexplanation in 155 for why he was suddenly being helpful in the game and lack of pretty much anything else. One of the last things NS says is that there's no way he and DV can be scum together in post 333, which is just an odd post altogether.
Why do you say DV is town for saying he was thinking about fakeclaiming, but NS is scum for testing the waters on an Alice lynch? In both cases it's someone openly doing a scummy action.
More specifically, why do you have a townread on Jon_h61 and a scumread on NS when they seem roughly comparable in terms of contribution to the thread?
Second, do you think NS is mafia or the SK? If you think he's mafia, who do you think is the SK?[/quote]
DV admitting that he was thinking about fakeclaiming is a town reaction. Yes, it's a scummy action, but admitting it tends to come from town. I've seen town fakeclaim to save themselves from a lynch and then fess up within hours that they didn't have the role they claimed they had. Scum don't tend to admit these types of things. And I said I have a weak town read on him.
NS isn't only scum for testing the waters on Alice bussing Jason. One, his first post in the thread looks like distancing from Jason where he's suggesting that he'd be willing to vote him. Besides it's not necessarily the testing of the waters that looks scummy it's the language used. Saying "Guys, if I were to say Alice isn't town, how would that be received?" isn't a town type of question. Town tend to test waters in a different way, ask questions a bit differently, and they aren't too concerned with how they're going to be received. Asking "how would that be received" suggests too much concern for what might be an unpopular opinion and not wanting to stand out for it or get too much flack for it, which tend to come from scum. Also, he just doesn't look like he actually believes it.
I'm leaning town on jon but not sure exactly what to do with him. There's a lack of participation that would make him fit the profile of a killer and it's weird that most of his posts are talking about making more contribution. Actually now that I've read him in ISO, I'm trying to figure why I was leaning town. He talks about posts that he makes but never posts. Wasn't he confirmed vanilla through his predecessor? He seems a bit more engaged than NS, which is why I was leaning town for him. Leaning town is a far cry from saying I have a town read though.
I think it's most likely that NS is mafia. Post 97 makes sense for this. Saying that he remembered Jason being scummy and would be willing to vote him but doesn't want to put him at L-1 yet while also floating a possible DV lynch suggests distancing.
As far as who the SK is, I don't know. I'd need to think about it. I'd suppose it was somebody who wasn't necessarily attempting to get the mafia team killed too soon as the SK would need them alive if he had any hopes of surviving to endgame himself. Without having the first three days of the game to look at behavior and wagons, I don't know who would typically fit the profile. So, it's assumed that the SK killed the first night correct? But not the other nights? Why would they be withholding their kills when the longer they drag it out the lesser chance they have to win. The lack of multiple kills is one reason I'm not completely convinced there is a SK. Yes, I know the theory and objectively it does make sense for Snake (me) to be the SK due to a lack of attention to the thread. It's a good theory, but it's incorrect. What player wouldn't make a kill though? It doesn't make sense to me. The only option I can think of is redff. He was jailed night 3 and potentially was night 4, which would make sense for there not being two kills that night. Is there any accounting for his night 2 actions?
I don't know if I buy your potential theory that MoI is the SK. He seems like the type of player that wouldn't hold the kills. The only way I'd see this is if he wasn't actually looking for the killers in earnest. Hmmm...something hasn't felt quite right in his scumhunting so I suppose this could be a possibility, still he seems like the type of player that would submit kills. Need to think this over.-
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Oh wait so question about Serial Killers here. Are they typically bulletproof? Where I play they are bulletproof and sometimes have other roles as well - the one I played in had a bulletproof, 2 shot finder, serial killer. If the serial killer is bulletproof here perhaps that's why there is different flavor. If there is a serial killer, how likely is it that the serial killer murdered someone night one, but the mafia team attacked the serial killer who was bulletproof?-
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In post 403, Magua wrote:
Mechanics question first.
Serial killers tend to be either investigation immune or bulletproof. Given the existence of the FBI Agent, going to guess not investigation immune, so the SK is actually probably bulletproof.
You have to recall that a member of the mafia was jailkept (which means their action failed) N1. I do not believe that the Mafia have shot the SK, because if you have the Mafia up against a bulletproof SK, they know the only way to win is to get that person lynched. At the very least I Am Innocent or Jason would've outted that information as they were being lynched.
And the Mafia have only missed one kill. It's the SK who's missed three.
Will post more in a bit.
All right, still trying to adjust my assumptions for site differences. I didn't even consider one member of the team being blocked stopping the kill. At my site, if there's a three person team, even if two members are blocked the kill still goes through because it's a team action rather than an individual.
When did the SK theory become serious? If they thought the person they hit was healed, that could account for them not thinking that it was a SK. But, it's probably a stupid idea anyway, so never mind.
Actually I've been thinking, and you were right in your earlier assessment, you have to lynch me. I've been able to argue my way out of tough mafia spots and prove my innocence before when it didn't look good, and as fun as that is, I don't think it's possible here. Nor do I think it would be good for town anyway because even if you all listen to me for now I would be too much of a problem later on because of the blank spot. (Now make this twice in just a couple weeks here that I feel like a hypocrite for arguing for something I've previously said shouldn't happen; although I had to strategically mislynch someone last week so I guess in certain instances it's best for town.)
I don't know this site well enough to be able to make sense of what is likely for the set up and balance, nor is math my strong suit, so I don't know how many mislynches you have left before town really starts to be in danger. My guess is that you have at least three, and I have to be one of those three. Sure, I'd love it if I wasn't this one, so I could at least try to help town, but I can see the writing on the wall pretty well and in all likelihood it will be this one.
I'm at L-2 right now, and I don't know if you guys tend to lynch before or wait until deadline, but I'd like for you guys to at least give me a couple of days so that I can go through the thread again and see if I can help before you lynch me. I know you'll still be suspicious of me while I'm here, but at least I can possibly try provide some interaction and information over the next few days that will help you in the next coming days.
This is actually kind of interesting, I've never had more than three votes on me before as an innocent, let alone be lynched as an innocent. I can't imagine any better circumstances for the first time of that happening.-
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In post 407, Alicewondering wrote:Magua, Jon is not confirmed Vanilla, but I tracked him at the start of this game, and he didn't visit anyone, which makes me think his predecessor was probably telling the truth about his VT claim.
You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?-
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Trying to figure out how many mislynches are left. The balance I'm used to you have possibly two left. Either 2 mafia or 2 with one mafia and one SK.
So assuming two left, it would look something like this:
10 people:
1. Lynch Tammy (mislynch), hopefully only one night kill
8 people:
2. Lynch ??? (possible mislynch), hopefully only one night kill
6 people:
3. If you mislynch day two after mislynching me, night might be your best option here to get you to odds and lessen the pool. Hopefully there will just be one more night kill.
The next two days you have to get it right.
So, I think I was wrong in my earlier assumption that you had three mislynches left. Unless I'm all kinds of wrong on my math, which is very possible, you have two.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 412, Alicewondering wrote:In post 408, Tammy wrote:You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?
To clarify, I meant the start of this thread. So that would have been N4.
Was he investigated by DY?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 404, Nobody Special wrote:Tammy is our Serial Killer. Anyone who doesn't see that, please, do try to convince me otherwise.
unvote
Vote: Tammy
DY is still scum, though.
And that's L-2, for those playing at home.
Why don't you explain why I am?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 415, Nobody Special wrote:As explained to death prior to this, Snake was away for, like,ever,and there's never been more than one kill per night.
Ipso facto, you're it.
Ok, so no real reason except for parroting another person's theory. Good, feel like putting some actual work into the game?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 413, Tammy wrote:In post 412, Alicewondering wrote:In post 408, Tammy wrote:You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?
To clarify, I meant the start of this thread. So that would have been N4.
Was he investigated by DY?
Never mind this question. I had a chance to reread the first half of the thread and found where he did investigate. You tracked him N4 and he didn't go anywhere, and there was a kill. So, the only way he's a killer is if there's two left of mafia, and he didn't perform the kill. That would be a hell of a coincidence and if there is a serial killer, I think it's unlikely, so Jon is not very likely to be a killer.
Of the people alive who have been investigated:
NS is not a serial killer
DV is not a serial killer
Jon is not a serial killer
Don't know if I'm missing anything.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 423, Nobody Special wrote:In post 422, Tammy wrote:
Of the people alive who have been investigated:
NS is not a serial killer
DV is not a serial killer
Jon is not a serial killer
Don't know if I'm missing anything.
That's IF you believe DY's claim, which I don't.
If you don't believe DY's claim, then do you believe there's a serial killer? How do you account for Alice tracking DY when he visited DV and DV not being killed DY is not an FBI agent?-
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Tammy Survivor
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Tammy Survivor
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Well your vote on me suggests that you absolutely believe that I am a serial killer. If I am a serial killer, according to your beliefs, why is it impossible for there to be an FBI Agent?
There was already a mafia watcher, so DY couldn't be that. Any other alternatives?
If you believe that DY's role is some other power role that is not an FBI Agent, then how likely is it that there is a serial killer in the game? Which would make your vote on me...why again?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 419, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Tammy wrote:What I find odd is MoI's reaction to his suspicion. When MoI replaced into the Kirby game, and he said who would probably be scum if they remained alive for too many more days with the player list, he said that he would say the same thing about himself. So if he knows he's going to get suspicion when he remains alive for a little while, why does he seem surprised or frustrated by it? (Although he handles it a lot better than I do when it happens to me.)
First I’m going to share some history with you.
I played for over 2 years on another site before coming to MS. There I developed a strong reputation similar to here – I was almost uniformally killed N1 as Town in every game regardless of play / role / whatever simply due to rep. It, as expected, got to the point that any game I survived N1 the calls of “MoI is scum, he’s alive” came raining on Day 2, often from scum. It actually became a viable discussed strategy for scum to avoid killing me just to make that argument to push for my claim.
Suffice it to say that I stopped playing games there shortly afterwards because the investment of my time wasn’t worth it. I wasn’t going to live more than two Days regardless of alignment or play.
I understand your point regarding Kirby Mafia – I specifically made that point regarding Spyrex and PranaDevil because it was true … the playerlist in that game was significantly weaker overall and them living any amount of time was something I didn’t want escaping those who were not experienced.
I’m used to dealing with “MoI is Alive” arguments and “Burden of Proficiency” arguments here. It’s pretty common. What makes me rather peeved is when they are made completely in absence of context and facts of the game. Simply put – I find attacks based simply on the “He’s alive right now” with the playerlist as it stands (and I challenge Darth to explicitly say directly he feels I’m a better player than he is and thus it is reasonable he hasn’t been killed) and the claims that have been made.
I absolutely get this. That kind of thing is the reason my site uses alts for almost every game we play, and most mods employ rather strict alt and meta-rules that can get you modkilled for outing yours or someone else's alt. (Not that I don't out my alt within 5-10 posts to most everyone because of my style, but still.) That being said, that kind of underhanded play is rather looked down on there as it drives people away, which is what we don't want. There are a lot of site cultural differences between the two that take some getting used to though.
The only reason why I thought it was odd was because of what you said during the Kirby game, so I just figured it was something you expected in every game.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 433, DarthYoshi wrote:
BUT--it worries me that the red wagon has essentially disintegrated when between him and MOI, we are very likely to have AT LEAST one scum.
So I'll vote Tammy at deadline to avoid a no lynch (can someone please explain the wagon on her to me? She's spewed all over this thread, but I'm having a hard time distilling this scumminess seen in her down to an actual case. Not saying she isn't scummy (like I am w/ NS), but that I just am not seeing it right now. I kinda get why Magua thinks she's the SK, but as for everyone else...??? So, help, please) but I continue to maintain that Ghostlin's original proposal of MOI or red is still optimal.
@Tammy: I listed my investigation targets some time ago--ISO me to find 'em. Fitz, NS, Thor/Jon, and DV. All not serial killers.
Thanks. I found most of it when I reread the first part of the thread yesterday. I think the only one I was missing was HF.
Do you remember what the reasons for Ghostlin proposing MoI were? If they're in this thread, I'll find it as I'm making my way through the thread again, but I don't remember it from my first read.
What you are reasons for suspecting MoI that are independent of his still being alive?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 435, Magua wrote:
In the neighborhood, Magna is putting up resistance to the idea of me wanting him investigated by Yoshi. I'm not sure why, and it sorts of bugs me, but we're arguing it out.
What kind of resistance is he putting up? Is he giving a reason he shouldn't be investigated?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 437, DarthYoshi wrote:In post 434, Tammy wrote:In post 433, DarthYoshi wrote:
BUT--it worries me that the red wagon has essentially disintegrated when between him and MOI, we are very likely to have AT LEAST one scum.
So I'll vote Tammy at deadline to avoid a no lynch (can someone please explain the wagon on her to me? She's spewed all over this thread, but I'm having a hard time distilling this scumminess seen in her down to an actual case. Not saying she isn't scummy (like I am w/ NS), but that I just am not seeing it right now. I kinda get why Magua thinks she's the SK, but as for everyone else...??? So, help, please) but I continue to maintain that Ghostlin's original proposal of MOI or red is still optimal.
@Tammy: I listed my investigation targets some time ago--ISO me to find 'em. Fitz, NS, Thor/Jon, and DV. All not serial killers.
Thanks. I found most of it when I reread the first part of the thread yesterday. I think the only one I was missing was HF.
Do you remember what the reasons for Ghostlin proposing MoI were? If they're in this thread, I'll find it as I'm making my way through the thread again, but I don't remember it from my first read.
What you are reasons for suspecting MoI that are independent of his still being alive?
Ghostlin basically suggested that three protective roles (one confirmed JK, a claimed two-shot doc, and a claimed bodyguard) are highly unlikely in a 18-player setup, and that either MOI or red was likely fakeclaiming. You can ISO him to find what he said verbatim.
I've basically suspected MOI all game. His D1 play was lurkertastic and felt much more like scum trying to pretend to scumhunt than actually being useful.
OK so it is in this incarnation of the thread. I haven't had a chance to reread the last half, but I'll ISO it if it doesn't stick out. As far as the roles, I agree. It would be rather odd to have that many roles on team innocent.
I agree with your assessment of the scumhunting. I noted in my read that something didn't feel right. I need to finish rereading the thread, which I'll be able to do tomorrow, and ISO to see if my first impressions hold up, but what it seemed to me was a type of scumhunting that didn't feel quite earnest. One that focused too much on objectively verifiable information, which is a safe place for scum to hunt, and can't be contradicted due to textual proof but at the same time isn't necessarily indicative of scum. (I don't know if that made sense, but I know what I mean.)
Magua wrote:Ok.
No. We're not lynching redFF. I'm 95% sure that in the pool of (redFF, MagnaofIllusion), and I'm 85% sure that the scum in that pool is redFF. But, killing redFF means Alice dies tonight. Letting redFF live means Alice lives, *or* redFF gets lynched.
So...you're pretty damn sure that red is scum and you DON'T want to lynch him because that means we lose a PR? Shouldn't the town almost ALWAYS be willing to trade a PR for a scum?
I've got a better idea: we lynch red today and I investigate MOI tonight, then you get to know if both players are SK as opposed to just one.
[/quote] [/quote]
I agree and disagree with this.
^^^^^8.5 on the wishy-washy scale.
In the sense of being willing to lose a power role in the case of lynching scum, I absolutely agree with you. However, I see Magua's stance in that Alice is his strongest town read and that is an important thing to keep. If he ends up having to choose in a possible endgame scenario, it's always better to have a known variable rather than two unknowns. Also having around someone's opinion whom you trust is pretty important, so I can see why he would consider it more important to keep her around than to lynch someone right now that might be scum.-
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Tammy Survivor
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Care to give a reason that doesn't include the already tired "Snake wasn't on the thread" argument? Because, seriously, once you lynch me, you're going to have to come up with a different plan. Might as well start thinking about alternatives now.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 460, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Magua wrote: In the neighborhood, Magna is putting up resistance to the idea of me wanting him investigated by Yoshi. I'm not sure why, and it sorts of bugs me, but we're arguing it out.
Let’s be fair – I’m not ‘resisting’ the idea of being investigated. I’m questioning your assumptions in logic.
Then there shouldn't be an issue. Is there someone you think should be investigated instead?
Tammy wrote: There was already a mafia watcher, so DY couldn't be that. Any other alternatives?
We’ve been over this already. Roleblocker / Rolecop / Modified Framer are all possibilities.[/quote]
Thanks. I wasn't asking the question because I actually needed the answer though. I was trying to determine his thought process.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 463, Nobody Special wrote:Magua: If you think MoI should be investigated, why aren't you voting him instead? Is Jon really scummier than MoI? After all, MoI is still alive, and we know what that means.
Why are there no votes on MoI? Let's rectify that.
Vote: MagnaofIllusion
I don't know? What do you think? Is Jon scummier? Do you have any reason to believe that MoI is scum that is independent of his still being alive? What exactly does his being alive have to do with anything?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 464, DarthYoshi wrote:
MOI's vote of me is incredibly anti-town. At the time of his vote, he moved from the leading wagon (Tammy) to a person with only ONE other vote (me) when the deadline wasonly three days away. It looks like an effort to divide the town than any genuine attempt to catch scum.
In any case, the unofficial tally means that there are only two votes left on Tammy--Magua's and Alice's, and the leading wagon (NS) has only three votes on it. Deadline is in a little over 48 hours from this post.
I really need to figure out a way to get adjusted to site differences. Is three days away really cutting it too close to deadline to shift wagons?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 466, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 464, DarthYoshi wrote:MOI's vote of me is incredibly anti-town. At the time of his vote, he moved from the leading wagon (Tammy) to a person with only ONE other vote (me) when the deadline was only three days away. It looks like an effort to divide the town than any genuine attempt to catch scum.
Oh so you mean the vote move to one of my Top scum suspects. Made right after Magua did the same thing - voting for a top suspect after Tammy's Serial Killer status was cleared up by the Mod.
But one peep here about Magua making an Anti-Town vote? Nope, not a peep. Cognitive Dissonance in full effect!
Why are you concerned about pointing it out that someone else moved their vote too, but didn't get called out?-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 474, Alicewondering wrote:UNVOTE:
I just realized that it doesn't make sense for MOI to be SK.
VOTE: DeasVail
I'm derping all over the place. PLEASE JOIN ME GUYS. I'll come back and explain if people have questions, but I have to go for now.
Uh yeah, can you explain? I'm making my way through the cached files and as long as I'm interpreting who's who correctly, you've suspected him for some time. (Or maybe that was muffin.)
Did you vote MoI in the first place because you thought he was the serial killer? If that's the case, can you explain your vote on DV? DY stated that he wasn't the serial killer, so are you now doubting DY? Or are you saying that DV is mafia?
DY still seems town to me...long catch up posts which would normally earn you an insta-wagon aside...*going to get used to site differences someday*
Still not impressed with MoI. *this could be because I'm not seeing many original posts but am seeing MoI through the eyes of muffin* Either way...surprised he hasn't been lynched yet.
Still have a town read on Alice, haven't seen Ghostlin - but don't see my read of Magua changing so it doesn't matter. HF still seems good, but shaky. Not very impressed with Thor who was Jon, so I could change my vote to him at deadline if need be.-
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Tammy Survivor
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In post 478, Nobody Special wrote:Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?
I just don't know what to do any more.
unvote
Vote: Alice
*snap* Focus *snap*-
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Tammy Survivor
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I'm feeling less good about voting for NS after his recent posts. I'm beginning to think that what I thought was a tone that was too afraid to go against public opinion because he was scum, might be personality based and therefore not alignment indicative.
There's something about Jon's placating tone that sets me a little on edge too.
unvote: NS
vote: Jon-
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Tammy Survivor
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Jason's read list on page 17 of cache...(yes, I'm a slow reader and busy)
His only known partner to date is I am Innocent, which he basically places in his null reads by not naming him. His scum reads include Camn - town, and Scooby (town?). Only unknowns from scum list are DV, MoI and Alice. Thor calls Jason town a lot from what I'm noticing. This is making me doubt Jon/Thor's scum read, especially considering that Jason has Thor in his town read. However, I haven't gotten a great feeling from Thor over all. It just seems a little odd to me that partners might spend their time calling each other town. That is unless they decided to split their reads - put one in null, one in town and one in scum - but I don't know if many partners actually plan something like that out.
Scum
Camn - wishy washy play, no real substance to posts
DV - already known
Scooby - Do something... seems lurker scum
MOI - agree with the case made on him
Alice - lowest of scum reads
Town
Fitz
Yoshi
Dry-fit
Palis
Thor
Muffin
everyone else - still null/not getting a proper read.-
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Tammy Survivor
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