NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[VitaminR]

Vote: DrippingGoofball

[VitaminR]

Not really feeling it, chamber.

[VitaminR]

Unvote, Vote: LoudmouthLee

I'm not a fan of any of the MafiaSSK votes on this page. Feels like a bunch of strong players going for an easy target. I especially don't like LML's #62, which nicely sets up a potential switch to the MafiaSSK wagon while maintaining a push on Tigris. Seems like something scum might do to make sure that two wagons keep momentum.

Her words weren't actually meaningfully responding to the context of the question.

As in: the response was in the abstract rather than talking about what the vote was concretely supposed to do in this game? Meh.

[VitaminR]

Am I not allowed to think two people seem scummy? If so, then I've been playing this game wrong for years.

@VitaminR, Do you believe in the finger of suspicion - Can you be voting for someone and find somebody else equally scummy?

Of course you can find two people scummy. It's more about the fact that they seem like weak wagons to me and it seems convenient that those are your two suspects. It's a little bit too 'going with the crowd' for me and I don't remember you as that kind of player.

Mostly? Responding in abstracts rather than specifics is a classic tell. (abstracts are unchanging and can be your actual town thoughts, after all)

Unvote Vote seol

Yeah, I thought that was what you meant. I don't know, I can see it as a nervous townie response also.

@CES

: What changed between #57 and #74 for you to follow through in switching your vote?

[VitaminR]

<3 ABR

VitR, what are your thoughts on petroleumjelly?

Like I said above, I was not charmed by the MafiaSSK vote (I was mostly referring to pj and Seol). Seemed like an easy, mostly theory-based vote. Why do you ask?

Just boring obvious stuff.

Such as?

Vote:VitaminR

Hi Yos!

[VitaminR]

I don't think that's quite right, Glork. At least the way I read it, pj's post, and the subsequent votes, turned the MafiaSSK wagon into a major thing. That's a big difference. What I didn't like about LML's post is that it left him free to pursue two wagons with significant support behind them.

Hi.

Do you think you know why I'm voting you?

Nope, not at all.

[VitaminR]

In that one post, you hard-defended SSK and implicity attacked everyone on his bandwagon (saying it looked like a , and attacked people for being on the tigras wagon, and voted LML for being on the tigras wagon and FOS's SSK. Without naming names other then LML, you hinted at a suspicion for the "strong players pushing the SSK wagon" (which, at the time, probably meant Seol and PJ, since they had made the real cases against SSK). You also implied that you thought that both tigras and SSK were town, without really explaining why.

Defending both SSK and tigras, the two leading bandwagons, and going after people like LML, PJ, and Seol all at once is an incredibly ballsy move, and I don't really see why you would stick your neck out like that so far, so early in the game, based on so little.

So my initial thought, reading your post, was that your behavior here would make the most sense if you're a scum who already knows SSK's and tigras's alignment.

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're reading a lot into one post.

Let me try to explain what went through my head at the time. When I'm scum, I'm overly concerned with 'leaving a paper trail', i.e. saying things that I can refer back to later to make it seem as if my suspicions are developing naturally. One of the ways of doing can be to leave a FOS or to call out a specific post, so you can refer back to it later when you actually switch your vote. I felt like I recognized that in LML's Post 62, especially given the weakness of both wagons (which I perceived as largely based on theory discussion).

You're right that that makes the most sense if both Tigris and MafiaSSK are town, but that's not necessarily the case.

4.)

VitaminR, who do you think the "weak" players are in this game? And yes, I ask this question with the knowledge that you are unlikely to be making friends with your answer.

Also, if you were strictly limited to the first two pages of the game and placing a serious vote, who would you vote and why?

I didn't necessarily mean to draw a distinction between good and bad players. Mentally substitute in: 'players who are typically perceived as being strong at theory discussion'. I thought it was striking that you, Seol, and LML were all going after the same person based largely on bandwagon theory in a short period of time. I don't know MafiaSSK's pedigree that well, but it seemed to me like there was a power disparity there that none of you seemed concerned about.

As for the first two pages, I placed a semi-serious vote on DGB, who I thought was very quick to declare chamber town, but it sort of failed to stir up a reaction. I'd be interested to know why you asked this particular question.

I'm not going to lie, I'm really eager/scared to see who makes VitaminR's list of "weak" players.

In any case I'm not feeling VitaminR. Honestly I wish I were because then I could be all like

HE'S LEADING US ALONG!

Haha, somebody remembers that song!

[VitaminR]

I'll go a step further. CTD is on the NERVERLYNCH list. He's that town.

Explain this read to me.

[VitaminR]

That's pretty silly reasoning, GC. Even setting aside the stupidity of the idea that I would describe a scum tell that I committed in pointing out the scum tell (requiring me to be self-aware enough to know that I do this generally, but not self-aware enough to recognize it

while specifically talking about it

), practically anything can be described as 'leaving a paper trail'. My whole point was that the wagons were particularly weak and that LML is not the type of player to just go with the crowd.

[VitaminR]

I don't understand you at all. I haven't lied about a thing and I haven't made anything up.

[VitaminR]

Thank you for your answer. Now please answer who you think the "weak" players are in the game.

You are correct that I am not concerned with whether MafiaSSK is a "weak" player. I am concerned with lynching scum.

I refrained from doing so for a reason. I gave you the answer that was behind my reaction to the MafiaSSK wagon (strong at theory, with reputations = you, Seol, LML; not so = MafiaSSK, Tigris). I don't see how it's a useful exercise for me to say who I think isn't that good at mafia. (Not that I even really have particular people in mind.)

2.)

VitaminR, I asked you to decide who you would vote in the first two pages of the game because that was all the information

I

had when I placed my original vote on MafiaSSK. If the best

you

can come up with is:

As for the first two pages, I placed a semi-serious vote on DGB, who I thought was very quick to declare chamber town

... then I fail to see what is wrong with pursuing MafiaSSK's switch to Tigris and subsequent theory assertion.

I don't see how it matters whether my vote was any better. I wasn't suspicious of your vote because I thought there were necessarily better votes. I thought the way you came to your vote was

scummy

.

[VitaminR]

I was actually just about to post that I am significantly more suspicious of pj with that response. He seems overly concerned with keeping pressure on me rather than trying to understand my point of view.

One of the broad generalizations I remember from my time here is that on day 1 people often lynched a pro-town player because people were arguing against the theory of what they said. Intent > content.

I'm going to go one step further from a previous statement and say there is very little that MafiaSSK has posted that I agree with.

Swimming past the bullshit

that is just a gross metaphor. Let me try again.

Putting aside all the fanfare, I suspect that MafiaSSK's actions are efforts to find scum.

But it's just so weird! MafiaSSK basically says we should all vote for Glork to gain information and then votes for Tigris for starting a different bandwagon, thus starting a different bandwagon.

If MafiaSSK turns out to be scum, it also kind of ruins my theory that scum decided to parrot PJ (or is PJ) and jump on the wagon.

Incidentally, this post makes me think StD is town. This is basically exactly how I feel about the MafiaSSK wagon.

[VitaminR]

Eh, the LML wagon is finally building up a little bit. I like to keep the pressure up at least until he actually contributes a little bit more.

[VitaminR]

Okay, I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and I never voted him. If you would like to run a meta on me (which you're MORE than welcome to), I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with. I also tend to confirm vote as well. I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1. Here's what I can tell you about my play. I random voted Tigris via dice roll, and changed my vote to StD. I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken. This game will be trying. Completely.

I wasn't really talking about you as much there, but I get your point. I'm not so sure what you're responding to with the second part of this, though. I'm well aware of the fact that my impression of you so far could be entirely wrong-headed.

But, to be fair to myself, here's what I see:

You went along easily with two pretty weak wagons. I pressured you on it and you immediately back off the Tigris vote (I get that you're saying now that your Tigris vote was still sort of a random vote, but Post 62 and Post 70 didn't sound that way and you only started saying that after I pressured you).

Then you switch to an StD vote, based on one exchange with undo and some vote-hopping of his you illustrate, while ignoring the majority of the content he's posted. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

How much is "a little bit more"? While trying to keep pressure on an undercontributing player is pro-town, the wording of this post indicates that LML doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just show up for you to move your vote, giving me the impression that you're keeping it there more for appearance than actual pressure.

I didn't really mean it that way. If you've read any of my posts, you'll know I'm not voting LML to get him to contribute. I just meant that I'm hoping to get a better sense of him from his response to being under pressure while he catches up with the game.

[VitaminR]

That's all you're going to respond to? I've already explained multiple times why I felt your move stood out in particular. You're just picking on my wording there.

[VitaminR]

@MBL:

Who do you actually think is scum? Your post contains a lot of commentary on people's actions, but nothing about where you think we should go next and your vote is still on Tigris.

@DGB:

A lot of your posts are just you calling people town at this point. Can we hear something about who you suspect?

@LML:

So, to paraphrase you: You're voting me because I went along with two (wait, one and an FoS) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1, and when I find something that truly looks and smells scummy to me, I change my vote to that person?

When I voted StD, I had a grand total of 2 or 3 votes on me (You, DrippingGoofball- who will vote for me regardless of anything whatsoever due to history, and Albert- who also likes voting me as well) - Hardly a wagon. There was no real pressure (sorry!) for me to make a move. I did it because I'm actively scum hunting.

See, I don't really feel like you are actively scumhunting. You haven't really explained your StD suspicions in detail and you're ignoring most of the content he's posted (he's one of the more active players in the game).

@pj:

In response to VitaminR's Post 249, my concern is that you are drawing a poor distinction between strong and weak players in an invitational game filled with players who have generally each been playing mafia for over five years. I do not plan on underestimating players.

Even assuming I did believe there are a few "weak" players in the game, then if a "weak" player is scum, pretty much the only way they are going to get lynched is if they are attacked by the other "strong" players.

But I take it you also think there are only a few "strong" players? Mind sharing who those are, if you are not willing to divulge who you think the "weak" players are?

I already told you what I had in mind when I said "strong players": you, Seol, LML are good debaters. I don't see the point in your question beyond that. I never implied anything about who I think is particularly skilled (not necessarily even coextensive with who is a good debater, btw) and how many players I think fit that bill. It wasn't even something I was thinking about, it was just a reaction to the particular situation of that group of players pressuring MafiaSSK.

Let me turn this around on you. Do you think that a debate between MafiaSSK, on the one hand, and you and Seol (+/- LML), on the other, is going to end with the town going "by golly, that MafiaSSK guy is totally right"? If you think I'm using outdated meta, fine, just tell me I'm wrong. (No offence meant, MafiaSSK.)

[VitaminR]

chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.

[VitaminR]

Yay, we're back! I'm still here. I like Zorblag's entry into the game well enough so far, his notes seem genuine enough.

[VitaminR]

Consistency is totally a scum tell. Yos comes off as quite town in his last few posts, with his discussion of DGB and LML. I'm not convinced that LML's scumhunting is actually scummy, but I agree that it's a bit superficial.

I also feel a lot better about DGB with that post. She was starting to make me nervous. I don't get the Porochaz read, though. Why is he scum?

[VitaminR]

His notes are also explicitly independent of alignment.

I read over this somehow, never mind then.

[VitaminR]

What did you think of his comment about me?

I remember I never replied to this. What were you referring to?

[VitaminR]

Unvote, vote: petroleumjelly

[VitaminR]

That last post of pj really sets alarm bells ringing for me, particularly the opportunistic jump on LML and the wilful misunderstanding of everything I've said in response to him. I do not get the feeling at all that he's trying to understand my point of view and it rings insincere.

Your question in itself, though, practically concedes that if both Seol and I are debating MafiaSSK on the same issue, we probably have a valid point we are trying to get across. This is opposed to purposefully ganging up on a "weak" player. Certainly neither of us has a pressing need to go attacking "weak" players. I take it you would agree either of us can stand toe-to-toe on theory with practically anybody.

Sure, of course. The problem doesn't lie in whether you were right or wrong (I think you were right, for the record). The problem lies in voting someone over theory (scummy in and of itself). In that context, it's particularly bad when strong players do it to weak players (because the town is likely on your side, you can isolate the weak player and that makes everyone more likely to go after them).

Your defensiveness on my follow-up line of questioning has not impressed me, either. It was very clear players were interested in your answer to my original question ("who are the weak players"), but you instead sidestepped it twice and have now sidestepped my question on strong players.

I don't think this is true. If I recall correctly, only StD said (as a joke) that he was interested to see who I would list and, other than that, several people expressed the opinion that (like me) they didn't see the point.

I didn't answer these questions at first because I gave you the relevant answers and there's no obvious point to them.
I have continued not to answer them because I got the feeling you were pushing them on me just to keep some sort of interrogation going where you're asking the questions and all the pressure is on me. I wanted to see how you would respond if I pushed back, and I think I was right to think that you're not truly interested in my motivations.

I think saying this, unqualified, when someone is disagreeing isn't likely to help alleviate the confusion. I agree with the meaning of the statement, but its specific types of consistency that are scummy, and those types of consistency are, in ways, a lack of other types of consistency.

Fair enough, it was just a quick line I added when I saw that I had been ninja'ed.

To be honest, I don't think I quite agree with your description of why consistency can be a scum tell. It's more about the fact that human reasoning is by nature inconsistent (because we are influenced by gut feelings, we change our minds, we misremember things). Scum is constructing artificial reasoning and have a tendency to make it unnaturally consistent.

[VitaminR]

chamber, what is your issue with Bookitty? I feel like she's been pretty on the money with her posts about PJ (especially Post 495 is basically exactly why I'm voting PJ).

[VitaminR]

I'm still not really getting what's so scummy about Bookitty's recent posts, perhaps because I mostly agree with her. I guess she seems nervous, but that could just be replacement jitters.

My questions to VitaminR (the "weak" v "strong" push) was to see if I could get him to agree with my stance through a Socratic line of questions. Given that I feel the direction I was going was pretty obvious, his refusal to answer my questions (or least to admit "I see where you are going with this, but I disagree") strikes me as being purposefully slippery. His point ("MafiaSSK was outclassed, therefore I suspect the attackers going after an 'easy target' and do not suspect MafiaSSK") is simple but flawed given the realities of this invitational game.

If this is honestly what you were trying to do, I don't see why you're surprised it turned out this way. A "Socratic dialogue" outside of a teacher-student context just feels oddly persistent, because no matter what I say you keep asking questions.

Especially since my point was a simple one, you must be able to see why it seemed to me like you were stringing me along with little reason. (Also, incidentally, the realities of the game only matter in terms of how I think

you

perceive the game. Who I think is weak or strong is irrelevant because I made a point about what I thought

your

motivations were.)

[VitaminR]

Still happy with my LML vote. Found his four-point case (Post 451) against PJ flawed and unpersuasive. I'm curious how the other PJ-voters (

Albert, Vitamin, Bookitty

) feel about LML's four-point case.

I've expressed something like point 3 previously (though I think PJ's explanation that he was going for a socratic dialogue makes it look a bit better in hindsight). I kind of agree with point 2, and a bit with point 1.

The way that post is written feels off and overly blustery, though (like the 'kill PJ' bit at the end), and perhaps this is what you're getting at. At the end of the day, I think it makes LML look worse.

[VitaminR]

CES is probably town for Post 564 and Post 565, for the record. There's too much serious-CES in quick succession for him as scum.

[VitaminR]

I also think that nestled in his theories he had some valid finds. He was the only person that I noticed that called out CES's obsession with Seol (which was probably in part joke-y/meta-y, but lasted much longer than seemed natural to me), and CES's bizarre quote in post 137 that "I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point." Of course, SSK's point about CES and CTD being scum together was silly.

As someone who knows CES very well, I can tell you that there is nothing bizarre about that quote. It was a very CES-y way of pointing out that he thought chamber was obviously town. He likes being clever in his wording and you're on the wrong track if you think there was any obfuscatory intent there. Anyone who knows CES would immediately have picked up on what he meant, like I did (chamber did also).

CES is not the droid you're looking for.

[VitaminR]

I sort of agree with ABR re Bookitty's recent posts, though perhaps not with the quite same degree of certainty. But she comes across as town to me in the claim and subsequent posts.

[VitaminR]

CES makes a good point about BooKitty in Post 652, actually. I'd like to see her address it.

I feel a bit disillusioned by both VitaminR and Glork's play -- they both seem to be purposefully talking past me and my points (and I will grant that the fact that they both claim to suspect me does neither of them favors), but they are not particularly strong suspicions, and not who I would prefer to lynch right now. To some extent my suspicion of them may be attributable to annoyance with their play. And also to some extent, I think I am already somewhat mentally associating them as having strange (potentially scummy) defenses of players I think are scummy and so I am more skeptical of their posts as a result. (And yes, I did just say I try to avoid this).

You saying this actually makes me feel a lot better about you. If it helps, I think we just have very different ways of approaching the game.

I'm no longer feeling so enthusiastic about a pj lynch. I sort of buy the Socratic dialogue story and he comes off reasonably town in how he's reacted to his bandwagon.

Unvote: pj

.

[VitaminR]

Vote: LML[\b]

[VitaminR]

Wrong. And you're also completely wrong about CES.

Also:

Vote:LML

[VitaminR]

There's NO WAY that CES is looking town right now. Vote him.

I'm like 99% sure CES is town. His MO as scum is to be jokey and stay in the background, so you can't really pin him down on a real opinion. He wouldn't go out on a limb to try to make a case against BooKitty. And there's certainly no way that he would wade into a lengthy(-ish) and serious argument with Glork.

[VitaminR]

Also, DGB and mathcam are probably town.

[VitaminR]

ABR should be vigged.

I don't see that at all. It feels like at every point of the day today, ABR has avoided taking the "easy road" on basically every wagon, has been willing to change his mind on new evidence, has been passionate at the right moments, and basically looks pretty obv town overall.

Exactly this. I'm not sure I've ever seen ABR look this town.

@CTD:

I thought the way DGB changed her mind about CES was genuine. As for mathcam, in Post 719, he says that, after re-reading, he's noticed the case against me (laid out by Yos at some point). This seems like the kind of naturalistic change in how you perceive the game that is hard for scum to fake (this assumes that scum is less likely to re-read just to test their opinions of the game and unlikely to try and find new suspicions at a time when there's no strong incentive to---since there's no wagon on me). It could be a subtle early play to set up a wagon tomorrow, I suppose, but the simplest interpretation is just that he's town.

[VitaminR]

Unvote, Vote: pj

Ehh, I've changed my mind again. Glork is right, there's still something very off about pj.

On another note, to answer PJ's questions:
I'm not very satisfied with your suspects, I feel like your "ask lots of questions" approach has been a smokescreen to prevent you from providing satisfactory analysis on most people (acknowledging that you've made a few focused arguments/cases against a few specific players), and to be frank I get the impression that you're not playing for the town; you're playing for you and you alone.

This summarizes it very well. I think pj's questions have confused much more than they have contributed, and it feels deliberate.

I particularly don't like this question directed at mathcam:

Also, can you explain the arguments against VitaminR in your own words?

This question feels so manipulative. mathcam made it decently clear what he had in mind (Yos's earlier case against me). It feels like pj is using the pretense of trying to get insight into mathcam's thought processes to create content that pushes the game in a pro-scum direction.

[VitaminR]

Unvote, vote: LML

[VitaminR]

Pretty happy with that LML flip.

I think a

Vote: petroleumjelly

is in order. He had a range of weird interactions with LML Day 1, including his late jump on the LML wagon after never talking about him and LML's strange OMGUS-y response (which none of his other attackers triggered).

I also think Glork needs a closer look. He's not impressed me so far and he stayed from LML almost all of the day, including with some really bad votes on CES and KK towards the end of the day.

[VitaminR]

Also, I will be

V/LA

until Tuesday. I'll be in an area without internet access, but I'll get caught up Tuesday evening.

chamber, are you just going back to that BooKitty vote, or have you found something linking LML and BooKitty?

[VitaminR]

The freudian slip was weird. I wouldn't be surprised if that was deliberate on LML's part.

I went and looked at LML's iso. You're right, it's weird. Here are his

two

mentions of BooKitty:

and 8) I'm behind on BooKitty. I'll try to read more today and give a definitive viewpoint on her later.

Here's who I currently think is town: Chamber, DGB, Shanba, Glork.
Here's who I am leaning town on: MBL, Undo, ABR. inHim (or any incarnations)
Here's who I have null on: Porochaz, CTD, CES, VitR, GC, Yos2, BooKitty (I feel like that wagon is incredibly manufactured... similar to mine), Kublai Khan
Here's who I am leaning scum on: UT, Mathcam, STD, Sotty
Here's who I have strong scum feelings for: PJ

To say so little must have been deliberate. He had all the reasons in the world to try and push the BooKitty wagon.

[VitaminR]

oh for fuck's sake VitR please don't embarrass yourself with a "he didn't say anything therefore he said EVERYTHING" case

No need to get nasty. I was just checking up on chamber's claim. I'm well-aware it could be nothing and that it could mean a variety of things.

@GC: True, it was only a quick observation. Maybe I'll look into it more after I get back from my trip (this will be my last post for a few days), but it was really only intended as a reality check on chamber's point.

VitR should be our lynch today.

Ha, you can't seriously believe that. I've found your scumhunting underwhelming all game and this would be the icing on the cake. Please explain why you would think this.

[VitaminR]

Well, found a bit of extra time.

I think a

Vote: petroleumjelly

is in order. He had a range of weird interactions with LML Day 1, including his late jump on the LML wagon after never talking about him and LML's strange OMGUS-y response (which none of his other attackers triggered).

This is a bad vote. I am totally convinced PJ is obvtown now. The way that LML went after PJ seemed genuine, more real then his other attacks; LML he was really trying to lynch PJ, both because PJ was trying to lynch LML and because PJ looked lynchable. One of the big scumtells I had on LML was the difference between the PJ vote, who he seemed like he was really trying to lynch, and his other wagons, which looked like he didn't really care.

See, I totally agree that LML's pursuit of pj felt different (that's what that second point refers to), but I came to different conclusions. I remember LML as someone who can bus hard as scum and my first thought was that he might have doing his best on his pj attack in order to create distance between them. Your explanation is possible too (I didn't think of it, tbh), I suppose, but then why not just go after BooKitty? It didn't seem like he was concerned with lynchability at all with any of his other attacks.

[VitaminR]

Going to try and get caught up with the thread. First, Glork's case:

Re: My VitR feelings... In a nutshell, some of VitR's early stuff bothered me, and I think he fits the profile of someone who would hard-push LML as a scumbuddy. The way he switched to PJ, and then LML followed twenty posts later made me feel that the distancing was complete/successful. But then LML became a viable candidate, and VitR had to bus.

You have it backwards. Go read the thread. I worked hard to make LML a viable lynch candidate.

Specifically, VitR had been elbow deep up LML's rear for a bulk of the day, with some lingering mehhhhhPJ feelings. Then, VitR hauls off and voted PJ for an "opportunistic" on the very same LML, and LML follows onto PJ a mere 20 posts later.

I get that VitR thinks (and thought) that both LML and PJ were distancing/busing, but that raises a really, really important question. Why switch FROM LoudmouthLee TO petroleumjelly as the latter finally joined the former's wagon to make it substantial? PJ's move onto LML (combined with my move off of Seol) left LML tied for the leading vote getter. So what on earth compels VitR to decide that that's the appropriate time to derail a growing wagon on the guy he had been voting all day?

Hint: He really wanted an excuse to move specifically

away

from LML and

onto

petroleumjelly. The behavior doesn't make sense for someone who actually thought (and apparently still thinks) that both of them were scum together.

Day 1 I never really thought about LML and PJ being scum together, that was mostly a thought that coalesced reading the thread after the LML-flip. I suspected both of them for independent reasons. My switches from LML to pj and back were motivated mostly by indecisiveness and self-doubt, triggered by gut feelings that LML's frustration, and later pj's, were sincere.

I feel slightly better about Glork with this case than before.

[VitaminR]

Glork, you don't have more of a critical reply or anything? I gotta say your attack on me feels pretty lacking in enthusiasm and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I was feeling a little better about you after you outlined the reasons behind your suspicions, which seemed credible enough (I was also sort of swayed by your self-meta), and now you're undermining that again.

[VitaminR]

In other news: the mathcam-DGB back-and-forth was real weird and I can't make up my mind if that's just DGB plus mathcam being unsettled by DGB or if there's anything scummy there. That said, I think DGB has a point in saying that she's sort an easy target here (to reuse a phrase that ticked people off before) and I don't think the build-up of votes on her is really proportional to anything she's done.

inHim's entry into the game doesn't inspire any confidence.

MBL made some good points about LML's meta that I agree with. Following up on that and in response to Yos:

Eh. His attack on PJ just looked like a scum trying to get rid of a threat, and PJ at the time was a huge threat to LML. I commented at the time that his PJ vote looked very OMGUSish; I found the timing extremely suspicious, because LML turned on PJ right after PJ voted for LML.

Most of LML's voting patterns seemed to just be him doing fake scumhunting to try to look like he was doing something, none of it looked like he was really trying, but in PJ's case, I got the impression that LML really wanted him dead.

If you look at his voting pattern, most of LML's votes look like OMGUS votes, attacking people who were attacking him (STD, UT, PJ). PJ was the most serious threat, and the only one that had a real wagon on him, so he tried a lot harder on that one. He probably didn't go after BooKitty because BooKitty wasn't going after him for most of the day; if he had made a case on BooKitty, she probably would have turned on him, which would have lowered his odds of survival.

Also, the best case scenario for the scum team would have been a no-lynch on day 1, which almost happened, so he was probably perfectly happy trying to push a minor third-tier wagon at the end of the day to lower the odds of a lynch happening at all.

I don't think making a case on BooKitty would have lowered LML's chances of survival by that much. The BooKitty lynch got pretty close to happening at a time when LML wasn't really that close.

I think the best explanation for LML's behavior with regard to pj, which we both agree stood out, has them as scumbuddies. And everything you say about his pj vote fits perfectly well with that. LML's response to pj's attack was completely different to how he responded to you, or me, or GC, who also tried to put significant pressure on him. Sure, pj had three votes on him at the time, but I also had some suspicion coming my way early. I simply don't think viewing his response to pj as trying to eliminate a threat to himself makes sense when he otherwise didn't seem interested in playing for his own survival. It makes way more sense to me if he saw that there were two wagons on scum and figured linking them in this way would pay off (in exactly this way).

[VitaminR]

inHim's entry into the game doesn't inspire any confidence.

Do you think that makes him scum?

Maybe? I'm not sure I have enough of a read on his personality. I don't think it's necessarily scummy to have low content posts or to be too lazy to read up on the game. But looking only at Day 2 when we lynched scum doesn't seem very pro-town. It doesn't take that long to skim Day 1 with the LML flip in mind.

[VitaminR]

Echoing KK: Can both pj and Glork explain their switch to ABR? I don't get how his Post 1144 prompted those votes.

Glork, you don't have more of a critical reply or anything? I gotta say your attack on me feels pretty lacking in enthusiasm and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I was feeling a little better about you after you outlined the reasons behind your suspicions, which seemed credible enough (I was also sort of swayed by your self-meta), and now you're undermining that again.

I've been busy. You're not off the hook or anything.

Oh yeah, clearly you're busy. Only ten posts in the last two pages. If you really suspect me, you're putting zero effort into convincing anyone of it, given that you're supposed to have spent "a lot of time" looking at interactions between me and LML (Post 944). It feels like you're backing off because you don't think you can make it go anywhere, which doesn't exactly make it seem like your suspicions of me are sincerely held.

FoS: Glork

[VitaminR]

I'm not really looking to critique your day-to-day schedule or whatever. My general point was just that you don't really seem too busy to respond to me (as evidenced by the fact that I got a reply to that within ten minutes). Surely you can throw out some critical one-liners or a snarky paragraph or two?

[VitaminR]

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

I don't see how it's that bad. It's a lot of work to do and he's got to know no one's necessarily going to think him any more town for it.

[VitaminR]

As a reference point, it doesn't seem completely useless. I read through it in any case, to see if matched up with my impressionistic conclusions.

chamber, what do you think of pj and Glork?

On ABR-DGB:

Well, I'm annoyed because I wanted Glork to answer first. Glork's vote on Albert B. Rampage feels like a "Something's off! Let's focus on that!" distraction.

I recognize that Albert B. Rampage's post was massively incorrect. Obviously he was mixing up people. But again, how is it scummy? If scum are trying to mislynch, then they take the time to make sure their arguments don't have silly mistakes. Because people don't join wagons that are based on bad data. Also, why wouldn't scum-Albert B. Rampage take advantage of DrippingGoofball's anti-mathcam push? Instead he backs off. Doesn't make sense for scum.

I basically agree with this. I feel like pursuing this ABR mistake is mostly a distraction.

Also, ABR and DGB's votes on each other in the last page make both of them looks worse.

@Glork:

But in all seriousness, it's possible that your explanation is a valid one. It's something I'll take into consideration. Personally I think it's silly to flip between wanting Player X dead and wanting Player Y dead without considering whether it makes sense for X and Y to be scum together, but not everyone approaches things that way. So I have to consider the

possibility

that what you said is true, because it's not an unreasonable explanation. Whether it's the truth or not has yet to be determined.

I see what you're saying. I almost never feel that kind of speculation is worthwhile Day 1. There's just such a big space of possibilities and you have to be pretty confident about your reads.

In any case, I guess what's generally bothering me is that when I suspect someone, I want to engage with them. Ask some questions, push on some answers, be a bit annoying, so that I get reactions that help settle my read (this is essentially what I'm doing to you now). Your approach seems to be the opposite: I have had to make you argue with me and you seem quickly content with the one answer you elicited.

You may not want to get dragged into a long debate (not sure whether that snarky paragraph was completely a joke), but you'd have to feel like your read was pretty firm for that to make much sense. And my posts aren't

that

long (definitely compared to GC).

[VitaminR]

Unvote, Vote: Glork

Glork's been bothering me all day. Also, this DGB wagon is real easy and I don't like how he's pushing it. Posts like this one seem real simplistic for someone like Glork:

I don't think I've seen DGB simply acquiesce to being lynched as either alignment. The impression I got from her "I give up" post is that it worked for Bookie, so it might just work for her.

[VitaminR]

I see where you're coming from, but hey she already claimed, let's just take this bandwagon to its logical conclusion.

This feels off.

[VitaminR]

What do you mean by "real simplistic for someone like Glork"?

Her giving up I think could be read lots of ways, especially since it's DGB. You threw a simplistic interpretation that is also the one that makes her look bad. You could be falling for confirmation bias a bit (and I think we all kind of want her to be scum, because it'd be easy), but I sort of think you're the kind of scumhunter that would be aware of the danger of that.

Also, not pushing the DGB wagon. I'm not as sold on her protownness as I was at the start of the day, but I'm far from being willing to lynch this. She's done a few things in recent pages that grant me pause but certainly not enough to lynch it.

I feel like you

have

been pushing it, though subtly. Both Post 1223 and Post 1230 put additional arguments against DGB out there at a time when there's substantial pressure on her, even if you don't strongly commit to them.

[VitaminR]

I agree with Glork on undo, though.

Also, that sucks, inHim! Best of luck.

[VitaminR]

So sorry to hear about your health problems, DGB. Hope things get better!

[VitaminR]

I really don't think a DGB lynch is a good idea. She might be an erratic player, but she looks really town to me in the last couple of pages. I have a hard time believing this is a scum response. And the idea of a mercy kill is ridiculous.

[VitaminR]

I wish I was as convincing as MBL apparently is. That undo wagon grew rapidly out of nowhere and doesn't seem based on very much.

[VitaminR]

Let me get caught up. First, I wanted to respond to some things MBL said.

Also, if Bookitty comes up town, it'd be really hard to make the case that Glork was scum protecting her all day. You'd have to add that protection of a townie up against a scum wagon to his "spot" of the "bus" and his willingness to post and vote in a possible no-lynch situation to sink his scumpartner. Plus your(undo's) statements that LML's interactions with Glork make them look like unlikely scumpartners.

This is a fair enough and I remember noting it at the time also.

@VitR

, you know LML decently well. Do you think he'd agree to give up and post a fake "bus" post for a teammate to catch, a few hours before deadline, with him not even in the vote lead (6-8), with what appears to be a decent shot at no-lynch?

I have no idea what was going on in LML's mind and what he was intending to do. I do know that his deadline play was really weird from the perspective of someone who thought a no-lynch was possible. His refusal to claim, slip, and then late soft PR claim do not seem like sensible moves if he was trying to stay alive for another day. Why not just claim VT right away?

I think it's pretty clear that LML was trying to engineer *something*. Whether it was to clear a teammate, to set up a future mislynch, or just to create enough confusion that we'd no-lynch out of indecisiveness is not obvious to me. But I don't think we can confidently rule out any of these options.

MBL, I think you also asked for my opinion of undo. It's not like I have strong reasons for thinking he's town, I just don't think he's done anything particularly scummy. Sure, the LML distancing analysis is bad, but I'm not sure I think scum is more likely to do that kind of busy work. I'm also not convinced him staying away from the LML wagon is that damning. It seems like you could easily wagon a bunch of other players in the game for not having had strong LML opinions and not having made a notably pro-town contribution.

[VitaminR]

I agree with StD's Post 1408 and some others. I really don't like DGB's Post 1393. I'm having some trouble seeing the pro-town mindset that would lead you to post that.

Detracting from the undo wagon would likely just end in DGB getting lynched, but he's a serious consideration for a later date now, I want to review his older play.

Yesssss.

[VitaminR]

DGB, you should make posts like Post 1436 more often.

[VitaminR]

I'm up for lynching pj, but I don't know if enough other people are.

[VitaminR]

Unvote, vote: pj

Finally this wagon is getting off the ground.

So if PJ is the lynch, I'd vote him.

What's this business about polling everyone before casting one's vote? Just vote, why do you need permission? VitaminR did it too, and all I can think is:

"are these professional pollsters just waiting to see that the wagon on their buddies is big enough that they'll be compelled to bus???"

I've been pretty clear about the fact that I think pj is scum all day (for pretty much the reasons you cited, incidentally). I only ever switched to Glork because nobody seemed interested in helping me lynch pj. Just you coming along at the end of the day with one pj vote wasn't enough to change that.

[VitaminR]

Eh, did not see that coming.

Unvote, vote: Glork

[VitaminR]

Yos, I don't get what's relevant about the fact that his town reads were worded confusingly. Do you think being confusing is scummy?

[VitaminR]

@chamber and VitaminR

What the hell are you two talking about???

Yosarian made an award-winning post, completely logical and I agree with everything he says. I'm very upset at chamber and VitaminR's ambuiguous replies.

What was ambiguous about my reply? I feel like Yos is trying too hard to make a case against CES out of very little, which worries me, because it could indicate an ulterior motive on Yos's part. I don't understand why he pulled out CES's town read comments, as if stating something confusingly is scummy.

[VitaminR]

Both chamber and mathcam wanting a UT lynch now makes me think that UT is town. Mathcam/everyone else, what are your thoughts on Porochaz? He has received very little attention in this entire game.

I kind of agree with this. Porochaz is just sort of coasting by and deserves more attention. (And I'm not really that excited about an ABR/mathcam/UT lynch, to be honest).

[VitaminR]

mathcam's Post 1578 reads pretty genuine to me. Not a fan of this wagon.

[VitaminR]

Ha! I appreciate the effort, ABR, but sadly you're completely off-base. There's no calculation in any of my posts, it is all totally transparent.

You're not looking at my recent posts in any sort of context and it shows:
- I've thought mathcam town pretty much since Day 1 and have never understood the wagon on him. And I have said as much. I only made that post because his frustration in Post 1578 clinched that read for me.
- I didn't switch to Glork for no reason. I was voting Glork well before that today and have articulated my reasons for doing so (same thing for pj, who was my main suspect coming into the day for reasons I articulated then, which went way beyond just there being something "off").

[VitaminR]

I also am not inclined towards a SpyreX lynch. He could be a really useful player and I have a slight town read on that slot (I think for the same reasons as MBL).

ABR's case on VitR actually makes sense as sounds pretty well reasoned when I read it though. I still have a pretty strong town read on VitR though, but I am willing to look at him with more of an open mind. It makes me more comfortable that ABR is probably town.

What about ABR's case sounds 'well-reasoned' to you? And, this might be a bit OMGUSy, but that second sentence sounds really opportunistic.

I agree, though, that it makes ABR look really town. I have a hard time seeing scumABR coming out with this much conviction.

ABR, I can see how you might scumread me. But please take the time to reread me with an open mind. I am really not looking forward to having to deal with you trying to mislynch me tomorrow.

[VitaminR]

mathcam's Post 1578 reads pretty genuine to me. Not a fan of this wagon.

It's genuine in a way that doesn't make him town though. Scum thinking that the attack on them is based on alignment-independent is something that totally happens and being annoyed at not being able to get someone like ABR lynched is something that I associate with scum.

I get what you're saying, but complaining about no one taking his scumhunting seriously seems like a townie thing to do to me. Why get upset if you're scum? You'd know that your case was wrong (unless you're bussing, I guess).

Except it won't be a mislynch!

Ha, and here I was thinking that a sincere appeal to you would net more than a throwaway one-line response.

[VitaminR]

I still think Glork is not a bad bet for today. I have a feeling people are reading him as town because he's been throwing around a ton of self-meta today. If you look past that, his scumhunting has been kinda minimal and lacking in follow-through. Doesn't feel like townGlork on some level.

I am also starting to grow increasingly suspicious of Sotty7. Though I find myself agreeing with her a lot of time, she's been kinda cautious and under the radar all game, not making any waves. Sort of reminds me of myself as scum.

[VitaminR]

Eh, I need to reevaluate my reads this game. Didn't expect to be wrong about both pj and Glork. It makes me feel I have to be wrong about one of my strong town reads.

CTD might have been the vig kill. Assume nothing.

I agree, though CTD as scum kill seems the most likely. I found it a little odd that GC was so certain about who the scum kill was.

chamber, I agree that CTD and Shanba are kind of odd choices. It was one of the weaker reasons why I thought there could very well be scum in pj/Glork.

[VitaminR]

SpyreX

should post something. Something really, really good.

Spryex should die is what he should do.

Vote: Spyrex

Explain this. Seems a strange vote from you.

[VitaminR]

I'm already getting real fed up with ABR. So what if I ran out of steam a bit Day 2? I was convinced pj was scum and I probably wasn't really as confident about my Glork read as I would have liked.

[VitaminR]

Also, CES is town and people should stop voting him. I'm leaning towards Sotty7 or Green Crayons at this point. I had GC as a solid town read, but now I'm thinking he might just be convincing scum. I can't shake the feeling that his first post today (in which he takes it for granted that CTD was the scum kill) was a bit of a slip, he pushed Glork hard (I did too, to be fair), and I remember his switch to LML Day 1 had some odd aspects to it (in particular, he switched his vote partially for the reasons I outlined, even though he was voting me at the time over my LML vote).

[VitaminR]

I notice I didn't put post numbers on some of this, but I can find them if they are needed. The worst thing to me is VitaminR using almost the exact words ABR used in pushing the LML wagon to justify VR's vote on that wagon.

What exactly is scummy about this? I think I pretty extensively justified my vote on LML. So what if I happened to use two words that ABR also used?

[VitaminR]

As Glork pointed out, it looked like you selected LML out of several players who had done the same thing and accused LML over those other players. LML echoed Glork's argument without attribution later on to defend himself against you.

To me, restating someone else's argument as part of your own without noting where it came from looks like borrowed justification for a vote on a scum partner.

To start with, I think I explained why LML stuck out for me (and I was right!). You even cited it above.

I wasn't restating someone else's argument. First of all, that was just one post in a series of posts describing why I thought LML felt off. In addition to that, ABR just made a one-line comment that happened to reach a similar conclusion. I wasn't echoing ABR. I just happened to use the phrase "inspire confidence" also.

I think you're twisting things unfavorably in my direction here, in a way that's not really fair.

Why are you certain that CES is town?

I happen to know CES quite well and I feel like there are way more town tells in his play so far than usual. He stuck his neck out to make a case against you Day 1, which he wouldn't do as scum (I noted this at the time). He also very quickly read chamber as town Day 1, in the same way that I did, which makes me think we're approaching the game the same way. The way he has reacted to ABR's case on me I think also fits more with him as town, but I'm less certain about that tell.

[VitaminR]

Poro, CES is my little brother. I might be a little protective of him, especially if I have strong reasons to think he's town.

[VitaminR]

Also:

Vote: Sotty7

[VitaminR]

The votes on me are somewhat weak. I kinda understand Chamber's, even if I don't agree with him (Spryex vote). VitR has been fumbling around trying to find reasons to find me scummy with the rest of the town and despite being unable to really come up with anything he still places a vote. That's the weakest one of the three. ABR's is probably a momentum shiftier and I'm not really too bothered about it.

I mostly voted you without accompanying text to see how you would respond and this is a very convenient reaction to those votes, given that I'm the one of the three under the most suspicion. You realize that I had the same reaction as chamber to your SpyreX vote, right? I just voted you later, because I wanted to hear you explain it first. Why does that give chamber a pass, but not me?

But let me articulate my reasons for suspecting you:
1) You've been under the radar all game, hardly making any real waves.
2) You said you were suspicious of LML almost all day Day 1 and called LML 'probably scum' quite early on, but kept your vote parked on BooKitty all day.
3) Your posts are mostly reasonable and careful, but they hide the fact that a lot of your votes have been on really easy targets, including that BooKitty/Seol vote on Day 1. Since then, you've voted SpyreX/inHim/etc., and DGB and mathcam when those wagons had plenty of support. Your only really original vote was on MBL Day 2 and you've quickly let that go.
4) Your response to ABR's push on me feels opportunistic to me. Your first post in response says you have a solid town read on me, but are 'willing to reevaluate'. That just reads like something scum says so you can later justify an apparent change of mind (and your reaction here seems designed to push that same narrative).

[VitaminR]

These chamber votes are awful. pj is just being petty and undo lazy.

2.)

While I am not enthused with Albert B. Rampage, I think he could easily be right on the money on VitaminR. VitaminR has looked scummier every Day of the game. His Sotty7 vote in particular made me curl my lip. VitaminR's play, as I said earlier, looks like he is trying to set himself for play later in the game; he inoffensively is trying to join wagons. I would be willing to lynch him.

I'm not particularly surprised about this, you've never been able to read me. But your idea that I'm setting up play for later is ridiculous (and based on

exactly one vote

). I've said repeatedly that I don't get why people think mathcam is scum. What do you expect me to do? Not vote anyone?

[VitaminR]

Geez, you guys are nasty. I'm doing my best, is all I can say. This is it.

I know, chamber, but answering petty with petty just doesn't seem productive.

[VitaminR]

1.)

Actually, VitaminR, I think all of your votes (save your LoudmouthLee vote and possibly your initial page two vote on DrippingGoofball) have been on Townspeople (Glork, myself, undo, Sotty7). You started Day Two with how I would expect scum to start Day Two. Your play is inoffensive and you generally respond to all suggestions you are scum with "Ha!." Given that your votes have been so

wrong

it is notable how few people actually seem to want to lynch you; the only thing you have going for you is that you attacked LoudmouthLee. And given that

so many people

have theorized that LoudmouthLee was bussed and the lack of attacks on

you

, you are a fine candidate for a lynch (supposing a purposeful blind eye towards you). You certainly don't look particularly Townish.

I never voted undo and actually said that wagon was bad several times. Also, you don't know whether Sotty is town. But anyway, whether my votes were on townies wasn't at all your point. You said I looked like I was setting up play for later. How was I doing that with any of my other votes? You can tell me my votes for you and Glork were bad. Fine, I've earned that. I was wrong, I have to deal with the consequences. But you can't accuse me of setting up play for later in the game with them. I was trying to get both of you lynched and

as soon as possible

, even if I was wrong-headed in doing so.

[VitaminR]

@Vitamin:

In Post 771, you switched from voting LML to PJ. In your very next post, Post 826, you switched back to voting LML.

Why?

Glork asked me basically the same question Day 2 and I answered it in Post 1117.

[VitaminR]

BooKitty, it's true that you did outline your suspicions of me earlier, but I also gave you a detailed response, which you didn't fully respond to. Why are you voting me now without acknowledging my response?

This is very badposting. Bitching about the play of the masons so as to look like you're doing something without actually doing anything useful yourself?

unvote

vote: VitaminR

I think you're being a bit unfair here. This is kind of a fabricated point. I posted one line about how I didn't like the chamber votes and the rest was just a response to pj's suspicions of me. Am I not allowed to defend myself now? I posted a bunch of other stuff in the last few days. You can always pick out one post that doesn't contain any active scumhunting and say "look, you're posting to make yourself seem like you're doing something".

Meanwhile, VitimanR juts feels wrong. His votes are wrong, his reactions are wrong, his moves are wrong. Pretty consistently. His suspicions never really feel right, they never happen at the right time. He's buddying chamber really hardcore, and has been since yesterday, often in ways that are totally BS. Chamber questioned me a little, and VitimanR followed. The masons pressure chamber to stop acting in what they precieve to be in an anti-town way, and VitR jumps to criticize the masons for it. That's just not town play.

What you have done that is so great? Most of what you say here is meaningless and I could just as easily say about it you, because it's totally subjective.

And you're exaggerating the chamber stuff. You think it's strange that I took chamber's side against pj? Pj pulled the same 'answer this question, now answer this question'-move on me Day 1 and I refused to play along, because it's just time-wasting. In addition, I'm like almost 100% sure that chamber is town, it's my strongest read in the game. That's basically been true since page 2. So yes, I was also defending him a little bit.

And show me all the ways in which I've buddied chamber that are 'total BS' to you.

[VitaminR]

Eh, I quite like Sotty's response to me there. It's pretty level-headed.

Unvote

[VitaminR]

BooKitty, Post 1857.

[VitaminR]

I know that you state reasons for your PJ vote in Post 873. I am saying that your problems with PJ's play that you point out in Post 873 do not seem to be congruent with the claim that you thought, at that point in the game, PJ was being sincere and therefore had town cred.

Please address however you would like.

I felt that pj and LML had a bunch of strange interactions Day 1 (pj's late switch to LML, their mutual tunnelling). After the flip, I really thought those made the most sense if pj was also scum. After LML's flip, I also became increasingly unsure to what extent my reads of sincere frustration were that useful (they had lead me to think LML was town also on at least one occasion).

Also, I did not realize that you are CES are related. (Unless if I am misunderstanding your "little brother" comment?) You appear to admit that you may have some bias -- "I might be a little protective of him" in Post 1959 -- but stop short of recognizing that such bias might be affecting your read of CES.

We are related, yes, and it very well might affect my read. I have a tendency to read him as town (I'm aware of this, though I maintain that I haven't seen him do anything really scummy).

(2) Have y'all played together where he was scum, or do you just know of his scum play from observations?

(3) How do you feel about the fact that CES

hasn't

really vouched for your townness in the same way that you have for him? Shouldn't he be just as familiar with your town/scum play as you are with his?

I've played with him enough, yes. And we're pretty different people with very different playstyles. CES would almost never vouch for me, regardless of alignment.

This is the usual pattern for our play. I think I have a read on him quite early (rightly or wrongly so) and he shies away from giving any sort of definite read.

[VitaminR]

You know, I've been getting accused of 'buddying' chamber/CES since Day 1. What would you do if you thought you knew two players well and had strong reasons to think each of them town? Defending them is the

pro-town

thing to do.

If anyone thinks I'm getting something out of this, they're wrong. Neither chamber or CES is ever going to think any better of me for defending them. Both of them will tell you that they almost never definitively read me as town. They're both way too wary of my scumplay.

[VitaminR]

I have outlined why I think CES is town, Porochaz. You can go read up on my reasons. I shouldn't have to fish this out for you.

[VitaminR]

Yos, I freely admit I've defended chamber and CES (I've done this fairly openly from the start). But do you seriously think I'm 'using them to push wagons'? I asked chamber for his opinion on pj and Glork ONCE.

Look, I know both chamber and CES well. They are the players I like the most in this game and feel the most comfortable playing with. I often agree with them and understand the way they think. Do you think that perhaps this by itself explains my interactions with them a lot better than your theory? I've never once made any attempt to get chamber or CES to vote my way or tried to badger them into anything. Maybe I've been too quick to pick their side, but there are no attempts at manipulation or intimidation or whatever.

I think you're being a bit unfair here. This is kind of a fabricated point. I posted one line about how I didn't like the chamber votes and the rest was just a response to pj's suspicions of me. Am I not allowed to defend myself now?

You bashed both PJ and Undo for putting pressure on chamber. Attacking masons, and trying to undermine what they are doing, is just obviously anti-town.

Why? I can no longer disagree with them because they're masons? Maybe you can say I was too harsh, that's sort of fair. But they're not immune from criticism just because they are masons.

Answering questions asked of you by a confirmed town PJ is "a waste of time"?

I haven't found pj's questions helpful at all this game (and I'm not the only one to criticize him for this). I was subjected to them Day 1 and it felt like being badgered by someone under the pretense of logical questioning without any real appreciation for their point of view.

I wanted to stop that from happening with chamber, because I didn't see chamber responding to that any better than me and I felt like it would create a big distraction that wasn't going help the town. I didn't want to see either pj or chamber waste any time going after each other, because I'm sure they're both town.

If you want to defend chamber, then the way to do that would be to explain to PJ why you think chamber is town.

This is fair enough, but I'm not sure it's easy for me to put into words why I'm so convinced chamber is town. Part of it was his intensity out of the gate Day 1, part of it is his attitude. He is much more cautious and logical as scum. His play here is essentially carefree and he's only that way as town.

[VitaminR]

What a load of paranoid BS.

I'm trolling pj to lash out at chamber? Where do you even come up with this stuff?

Where did this all come from? One moment you look like perfectly normal townYos and now you're constructing all sorts of crazy little theories based on one-line comments that I didn't think more than two seconds about. You must admit that you're reading RATHER A LOT into things here.

[VitaminR]

I'm not accusing you of defending chamber (that is, trying to stop him from being lynched). You don't seem to be doing that, really. What I'm accusing you of is trying to be buddy-buddy with chamber as a way to manipulate him.

I explicitly address this point above. Did you read my reply? Where are my attempts to manipulate chamber? The ONE question I asked him? Is that it?

You are defending CES, which I'm not a fan of, but I'll admit that's not really a strong argument against you until we know CES's alignment. Your relations with Chamber look different then that; making a point with saying you agreed with him even if cases where it didn't seem to fit what you had previously said (for example, in the one quote above, his opinion of Undo looks different then the one you previously had, but you just quote him and say "yessss").

Wrong. The 'yesss' reply quoted above was in response to chamber saying he was willing to look at pj (I was happy about this because I was convinced pj was scum).

It's also a little weird when you say things like "Gee, I was wrong about both PJ and Glork, maybe I should re-evaluate all my town reads" and then instantly go right back to buddying chamber and defending CES without showing any sign of re-evaluting your reads on them.

If I re-evaluate my reads, it doesn't mean I have to change my opinion on everybody. I'm not going to throw out everything. I thought about it and I still think they're town. I don't think I'm wrong about them.

Well, I'm not surprised to see you defending CES like you are. I just don't get what your interactions with chamber are supposed to accomplish if you're town, though.

They're not supposed to accomplish anything. There's no art or design to my interactions with chamber, no masterplan. I have just posted my opinion and asked him a question once or twice.

If you were convinced that both PJ and chamber were town, then I would expect you to try to make peace between them, or to convince chamber to just answer the questions and get it over with, or to convince PJ that he's acting in a way that's not helpful, or to convince PJ that chamber is town, or something.

You really think it's realistic to expect me "try and make peace between them"? I'm not their camp counselor. I posted my opinion to counterbalance pj's, which I thought would be more effective. I concede your point that I was probably too harsh, though.

PJ knows what he's doing. He's one of the stronger mafia players I've ever played with, and everything he does has a purpose.

I can understand blowing the questions off if you're not sure of his alignment or if you're worried he's scum trying to make you look bad, but if you accept that he's town, then not co-operating with him doesn't make sense.

I don't even care about chamber's stubborness here; I think it's anti-town for him to refuse to answer questions, but it's not scummy, imho, there's no real scum motivation for him here. But you supporting him in answering questions, there is.

Also, if you were town who actually thought PJ was scum earlier and now know that you were totally wrong, I would expect your behavior toward PJ to have changed more then it has.

Whether I find his questioning useful is not an alignment-dependent opinion. I'm not going to unquestionably venerate his methods, like you seem to be doing, just because he's a claimed mason.

[VitaminR]

That's fair enough, pj, and I apologize for being a bit harsh. My base frustration level with this game is a little high right now. It's not really that your vote on chamber was that bad, I sort of see where you're coming from. I just don't think pushing chamber in that particular way is all that helpful (voting him like that just makes him more likely to dig in his heels, to borrow a phrase from Yos). So that what I was responding to.

I can see how you would draw a parallel with C&H. I don't think it's necessarily unfair to say that I've been testing out my votes a little bit, because I've been genuinely unsure about my scum reads after your claim. I've found it hard to settle on a new suspect. I didn't even really have that much confidence in my Glork vote at the end. In C&H, I did that purposefully, because I was just trying to be as cautious and inoffensive as possible, while never giving out strong town reads, and I was constantly nervous at being the only scum in a game with lots of strong town players.

[VitaminR]

(shrug) Weather you're "trying to manipulate" consciously him or not, it's very natural for scum to try to find townies willing to "ally" with them, and that's what your posting history looks like. Sometimes this is a careful manipulative plan, sometimes it's more a subconscious instinct, but either way it's common. The fact that you know chamber well makes hypo-scum-VitR more likely to try that.

Town usually are paranoid about buddying that much, because they don't really trust anyone. Scum, on the other hand, already know who is town; it's much more common behavior to see from scum.

You could just as easily spin this the other way. Scum are wary of getting accused of buddying (it's a very common accusation to throw around) and town have no real reason to fear defending someone they think is town.

In any case, I've been getting accused of buddying all game. You think I've been sticking with it because of 'a subconscious scum instinct' to buddy, knowing I'm going to get this kind of flak for it, or because I legitimately have strong reasons to think those players are town?

Basically you have to understand here that I have limited information to work off of; I have to figure out if you're town or not based on your behavior, and right now, your behavior doesn't look town, since I can think possible anti-town motives for your behavior, and I can't think of any pro-town motives for your behavior.

I've told you the pro-town motives, the ones that are actually the truth. You just don't want to listen to them. It feels like you've already made up your mind and prefer to stick to outlandishly devious scum theories because it makes an easier narrative for you to just be convinced I'm scum than to actually try and see things from my perspective.

(shrug) I don't care if you "unquestionably venerate his methods." But it's obviously anti-town to get in the way of a pair of masons trying to do something useful, like trying to get answers from a player to find out his alignment.

Someone we KNOW is town is trying to scumhunt, trying to gather information from another player. Maybe we'll learn something, maybe we won't. Why wouldn't you let him try and see what he finds out?

I'm not standing in his way at all, though. Anyone can see that his methods aren't going to lead where he wants them to go. The questioning isn't happening regardless of what I do. The only thing I was trying to stand in the way off were the useless throwing around of votes over it, which, in my opinion, just serve as a distraction.

[VitaminR]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds Yos's attacks on me a bit off. I wasn't sure if I was just being paranoid. The more I think about it, the scummier Yos seems for it. I just can't see a pro-town mindset in his recent posts. I sort of wrote off his aggressive attacks initially because he looked town D1 and D2 and I know my posts can have a scummy feel (GC sort of picked up on this). Even people who know me well enough have trouble reading me as town (as ABR is going to great lengths to demonstrate).

But the more I look at his recent posts, the more I'm reminded of some old games Yos and I played together in which I picked him out as scum because he just kept hitting me over the head with these long aggressive walls of text without any real nuance in them. This feels quite similar (though, in both cases, no one listened to me).

I wasn't replying to you, so how about you try to be courteous instead? Your rude behavior isn't cool.

I find this a little bit ironic, since you've been nothing but unnecessarily nasty towards me.

[VitaminR]

I don't know. I'd rather have someone say 'piss off' to me once than have someone call one of my posts trash, my behavior extremely passive, and my play disingenuous repeatedly. It's hard not to take it personally. Plenty of what you've posted has been fine, but you've crossed the line more than a few times, in my opinion.

[VitaminR]

undo, your reading of my play is pretty selective. Yes, LML flipping scum gave me a boost. You'll see that I went after pj with much the same enthusiasm. But then both pj and Glork turned out to be town and that sapped my confidence. You can always come up with a scummy narrative if you're willing to cherry-pick.

[VitaminR]

I basically agree with Yos on StD. I think MBL's case is kinda convincing, but I just have a hard time moving past the strong town feeling I get from his posts.

[VitaminR]

ABR, you're only citing my pj stuff from Day 1. I was talking about Day 2, which was the relevant stuff from the perspective of what undo was saying.

[VitaminR]

Really busy today, but will get caught up tomorrow and should be available in the few days before deadline.

[VitaminR]

Still needed to respond to some MBL stuff.

1)

Why did you find PJ's jump to a LML wagon "late"?

In post 417 on May 29th, PJ's first post after the server outage and two weeks before deadline, PJ voted LML, #3 spot on the wagon, with a bulky case. He actually re-infused the wagon that had been defused by STD, ABR, DGB and you leaving it. Especially considering the sizable case PJ made on LML in that post, I'm amazed by your characterization of his vote and posting re: LML. Can you please clarify?

I didn't meant late in the sense of late on the wagon. What I was referring to is that the LML wagon had existed for some time, pj had failed to comment on it (failed to say much at all about LML) and then came out with that post. It felt like a big change to go from not saying substantial about a player being discussed prominently to mounting an all-out attack.

2) Did you also find STD's vote jumps on and off LML suspect? Both PJ and STD got back on LML June 9th, #4 and #5 on the LMLwagon. PJ had been on LML May 29-June 4. STD was on LML May 19th and 20th and then off immediately after the server outage 5/27.

STD's and PJ's vote patterns regarding LML are almost identical, only shifted by a few days.

Why find PJ suspect for that and not STD?

I confess that I didn't notice StD's vote switches that much at a time, because I was already reading him as solidly town at this point. But I see your point.

3)

Did you find STD's case on LML more convincing or less "bussy" than PJ's?

You made a big deal about LML and busing (both your D2 votes were on LML-voters), so I'd figure you would have had your eye on both PJ and STD start of D2. I'd like to know why you selectively went after PJ and ignored STD, who was the other obvious bi-directional LML bus candidate.

Like I said, StD made it into my town column fairly early. pj already stuck out for me Day 1 and that's why I perhaps tunneled on him selectively a bit. In addition, it wasn't just the fact that they voted each other or that vote switches were involved or anything, I thought at the time that the pj-LML interactions read oddly in a way that the StD-LML ones never did.

4) You say no other attackers triggered LML's "strange OMGUS", but LML specifically said that ABR did, and it appears that STD also did.

Would you agree that LML was "strange OMGUSsy" on StD?

Yeah, you probably have a point there. I see what you mean and, like I said earlier, I can see the merit behind your case on StD.

@VitR

, what changed between:

Also, I'd totally lynch undo.

Of course his long-awaited analysis post lands him on the wagon du jour... Just like it did I'm Bookitty Day One.

I agree with Glork on undo, though.

and

That undo wagon grew rapidly out of nowhere and doesn't seem based on very much.

MBL, I think you also asked for my opinion of undo. It's not like I have strong reasons for thinking he's town,

I just don't think he's done anything particularly scummy.

Why did you agree with Glork about undo being a good lynch if undo hadn't done anything particularly scummy?

I also noted that D1 you didn't unvote LML and vote PJ until immediately after Glork defended LML and put PJ on his short lynchlist. Looks a little suck-uppity, which is bizarre considering Glork was a suspect of yours.

The part that I agreed with Glork about was the second sentence, not the first. It was just saying that I too found undo's analysis a little too self-serving, not that I wanted to lynch him. I didn't really note it as particularly scummy in my own mind. Townies too often come up with analyses that conveniently land them on the wagon du jour.

As for the second comment: Glork was never a suspect of mine Day 1 and the way he articulated his pj suspicion then was specifically what made me rethink my vote at the time (the words he used described well what had irked me about pj and seeing my own thoughts echoed convinced me that I perhaps had dismissed my initial suspicions too quickly).

[VitaminR]

I like the Sotty wagon best out of the options on the table, unless someone wants to lynch Yos, which I would also be up for.

Actually, my reads have been fine. I played my last game with Sotty7 (Georgetown II) and I have paid particular attention to her posts in this game. I am confident Sotty7 is Town. The wagon must move elsewhere, and it should do so quickly.

Really? Doesn't she seem more assertive in that game? Reading up on this claim actually made me

more

suspicious of Sotty. It didn't take long for me to find posts in Georgetown II with aggressive scum reads (e.g. "such-and-such needs to die", "you're scum"), for example. She's being much more diplomatic in this game.

[VitaminR]

unless someone wants to lynch Yos, which I would also be up for.

Are you sure you're not scum? Because your only case on me was your scummy echoing of chamber's confused question, and the fact that you didn't like that I was attacking you earlier today. When you do naked OMGUS like this, it really just makes me want to lynch you.

Oh, you're going to pretend this is scummy too? I don't care if it comes off OMGUSy, but I've always found it superuseful to look at people voting me, because I know they're attacking a townie. None of the attacks on me stood out that much until your late-to-the-game hyperaggressive attack. It read insincere to me and a lot of your arguments were a stretch. It really felt like you saw that there was plenty of support for a wagon on me and decided to try to put the final nail in the coffin by just throwing a whole bunch of arguments at me, hoping that some would stick.

You seem far more interested in simplistically using buzzwords like "OMGUS" and "buddying", both of which can be applied to a range of behaviors exhibited both by town and scum, to smear me than in actually trying to understand my reactions and mindset.

[VitaminR]

In Georgetown II I spent a fair deal of time reading (and rereading) Sotty7's posts, being concerned in particular with (i) how she defended scum, (ii) how her play appeared to be coasting and (iii) how her play was potentially ingratiating towards a few select players while being selectively dismissive towards others.

Levels of aggression vary depending on the strength of the reads involved, and I believe that is the case here (as opposed to being an indicator of a different alignment). I believe she is honestly trying to determine alignments and her back-and-forth on views (in particular, her "wringing her hands about Save the Dragons being Town" as DrippingGoofball characterizes it) reads exceedingly genuinely. I would be

shocked

if she is scum.

Fair enough, I guess, but this is harder for me to evaluate. You see what I mean, though, right, in that she seems a bit more assertive in Georgetown? I suppose my worry is that Sotty seems like the kind of player who would exactly be cautious and back-and-forth as scum, but might be less confident.

[VitaminR]

Was that your opinion of my case on you, that it was poor? (I guess I'm asking whether you understand why people, including me to some degree, are suspicious of you).

[VitaminR]

To clarify, that was addressed at Sotty's Post 2299.

[VitaminR]

Honestly, if you were actually town, I don't think you would suspect me at this point. On the other hand, scum VitR would pretty much have to pretend to suspect me now. You're reacting the way I would expect you to react as scum.

Part of the reason I attacked you was to see how you'd react, and you're not reacting like town. Which is a shame, because I really bought DGB's argument about you being town for a minute there.

Well, you're wrong and I'm having trouble understanding your reaction. I don't see why you're so surprised that coming and declaring about my every move that it can't be a town move makes me suspicious of you, in a game where a lot of people look town. You've gone from apparently neutral to picking at almost everything I do, claiming that there's no way there's a pro-town motive. I'm having trouble having seeing that as sincere.

Seriously, are you really surprised? You haven't conceded a single point and been pretty stubborn about it, when I know you're wrong about every one of them! Explain to me how I'm supposed to see that as a town tell.

[VitaminR]

Vote: Sotty

I've agonized about this a little in my head, but I think it's the best option. I still think her play with regard to LML looked bad and her votes have largely been easy ones.

I'm very intrigued by Sotty's last few posts, which have all focused on how there's nothing for her to argue against. There's no "The wagon is wrong because..." or "A better wagon is blah because..." She even goes so far as to call the wagon unfair. Whether or not this is true, this does paint to me a slight picture of scum bemoaning being caught for circumstances out of her control, annoyed that she played the game carefully enough to have nothing to actually be attacked for, and yet got caught away. I'm sure this is partly me trying to retroactively justify the wagon, but it sounds pretty reasonable.

I sort of had the same feeling. I also don't really like how she's using the fact that ABR called my case poor without coming out and calling it that herself. Seems a little disingenuous. If you think it's poor, say so. If you don't, don't use it in your defense.

[VitaminR]

Unvote, vote: Yosarian2

Will switch back to Sotty if that looks more viable.

MBL: I had some doubts about ABR around those DGB interactions, but he has looked very clearly town ever since.

[VitaminR]

Ugh, didn't see that mason claim coming.

What have I "been wrong" about? I explained why I thought your behavior looked more likely to come from town then scum. You said as your defense that you might behave like that anyway because you're friends with chamber and CES. Ok, that's reasonable enough, but that behavior is still more likely to come from town then from scum. I don't care how angry you get about it, I'm not going to "conceed that point" when we both know that I'm correct about that.

This is not at all true. You never said anything was "reasonable enough", you said it was "obviously anti-town" and that you couldn't think of "any pro-town motives for my behavior". Your attack on me was totally overblown. If you had actually said what you say here (that my explanations seem reasonable, but you think yours are more likely), it wouldn't have bothered me at all. But it's the fact that every one of your posts just seems to take the worst possible interpretation of anything I say and acts like that's the only plausible reading.

Also, I didn't "behave like that because I'm friends with chamber and CES". It wasn't some private party. I defended them because I think they're town (still pretty sure about chamber, maybe less about CES), which comes from knowing them well.

The fact that you're now claiming to suspect me, using that threat of attack, as a weapon to try to get me to back down from attacking you just makes you look worse. You're attacking me BECAUSE I'm still attacking you, because I didn't "conceed" points or "back down" or whatever. I understand that you would *like* me to stop attacking you, but that's not a reason to *suspect* me. Unless, of course, you are scum, and all your suspicions are fake anyway.

Stop pretending that it's illegitimate for me to suspect you for attacking me in a way that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not the only one to think your attacks were off-base, or to be more suspicious of you for them. It's nonsense.

[VitaminR]

undo, you know things have happened in the game since you posted that case, right? (Including me actually responding to it, which you seem to just be ignoring).

[VitaminR]

OGML looks good to me so far. I don't necessarily agree with the things he says, but he looks town in his enthusiasm.

[VitaminR]

I happen to know CES quite well and I feel like there are way more town tells in his play so far than usual. He stuck his neck out to make a case against you Day 1, which he wouldn't do as scum (I noted this at the time). He also very quickly read chamber as town Day 1, in the same way that I did, which makes me think we're approaching the game the same way. The way he has reacted to ABR's case on me I think also fits more with him as town, but I'm less certain about that tell.

I defended them because I think they're town (still pretty sure about chamber,

maybe less about CES

), which comes from knowing them well.

What.

What's your problem? All the stuff I list there is about Day 1 and he's been kinda absent since then. I still think he's town, but I'm no longer absolutely confident of it (I've also been wrong a lot, something has to be wrong somewhere).

[VitaminR]

You've made clear that you're voting for me because you don't like that I kept attacking you and didn't back down. Of course that's illegitimate.

And, frankly, I don't believe that I "didn't make sense to you"; I think I was speaking quite clearly, and I'm sure I made myself pretty well understood.

I'm not going to go into the rest of it, because it's starting to become a pointless back-and-forth. Do you want me to list all the people who said there was something off about your attacks? I'm not the only one who doesn't think you were being reasonable in your attacks and the fact that you are holding that as a point against me (but not as a point against anyone else) is totally insincere.

[VitaminR]

The more I read the post the more it looks like it is written by scum:

Vote: Sotty

I've agonized about this a little in my head, but I think it's the best option. I still think her play with regard to LML looked bad and her votes have largely been easy ones.

I'm very intrigued by Sotty's last few posts, which have all focused on how there's nothing for her to argue against. There's no "The wagon is wrong because..." or "A better wagon is blah because..." She even goes so far as to call the wagon unfair. Whether or not this is true, this does paint to me a slight picture of scum bemoaning being caught for circumstances out of her control, annoyed that she played the game carefully enough to have nothing to actually be attacked for, and yet got caught away. I'm sure this is partly me trying to retroactively justify the wagon, but it sounds pretty reasonable.

I sort of had the same feeling. I also don't really like how she's using the fact that ABR called my case poor without coming out and calling it that herself. Seems a little disingenuous. If you think it's poor, say so. If you don't, don't use it in your defense.

As I mentioned above, the "agonized" language does not seem genuine to me at all.

The formatting of the post is also interesting because VitaminR immediately separates out his own "agonizing" language by quoting mathcam so that his post ends up with a different emphasis. Much like how VitaminR may have been using Glork as a shield early in the game, he is now using mathcam's reasoning as a shield. It seems whenever VitaminR is voting a Townsperson he has to cite somebody else's reasons, but when he was voting for LoudmouthLee it was all himself. This suggests he wants the credit when go "right" and wants to be "led astray" by others' thoughts when things go wrong.

Oh, come on. The formatting of my post is scummy? If you have a gut feeling I'm scummy, then that's a shame but fine. Don't bother me with this nonsense. I was the only to outline a case on Sotty, way before anything mathcam said. It's total BS to say that I was using mathcam as a shield.

[VitaminR]

Also, MBL, you keep accusing me of using people for "cover". I do sometimes read other people's posts and sometimes I agree with them. Sometimes they even change my mind!

[VitaminR]

I think CES has been consistent the entire game in how he's playing, and so I don't see what basis you would have to change your opinion on him.

I just said that I am

maybe

a little less sure about it, since a bunch of my reads have turned out wrong. I'm not getting why this is a big deal to you.

[VitaminR]

There's no consensus among anyone. It's a mess. I don't even know who to switch my vote to in order to get a lynch to happen.

[VitaminR]

I think CES has been consistent the entire game in how he's playing, and so I don't see what basis you would have to change your opinion on him.

I just said that I am

maybe

a little less sure about it, since a bunch of my reads have turned out wrong. I'm not getting why this is a big deal to you.

As a reaction to your shift on CES, I simply said: "what."

The fact that you think that qualifies as a "big deal" is weird.

Oh, sure, now this is weird. I can't win!

[VitaminR]

Yos is kinda coming unhinged, yeah. Post 2693 is almost megalomaniacal and totally paranoid.

I'm willing to switch to DGB, I guess, if it's really the only way of getting a lynch. I really would rather not lynch CES.

[VitaminR]

mathcam, doesn't that logic sort of invalidate the use of meta always?

Where is everyone? It's less than three hours until deadline, I think.

[VitaminR]

Suppose you know both CES and myself are both town. Why on Earth would you choose CES over me? I know he's your brother but that should stay out of the game.

Why do you think? Because I'm not as sure that you're town. I have much less confidence in my ability to read you.

[VitaminR]

Ugh, this is not moving forward. This Yos-ABR back-and-forth is not helping anyone and neither is OGML coming in and placing a third vote (though I obviously have an ulterior motive).

[VitaminR]

I have to admit, DGB looks really town in these last few pages.

[VitaminR]

I'm here, but not particularly eager to hammer CES. Don't really see the point in not giving him a chance to show up, anyway.

[VitaminR]

Well, hopefully, my streak of being totally wrong will continue.

[VitaminR]

Well, I hope everyone who gave me shit about "buddying" CES realizes that I was totally right.

Vote: Yosarian2

Also, ABR, why have you changed your mind on me so much?

[VitaminR]

What I was trying to say about Yos D1 is that he really stuck it to LML in a manner that I don't think he'd do if he were scum. Some players, like yourself, don't mind busing the shit out of "good" teammates and sacrificing them for personal benefit. I've never really seen Yos play that way that I can remember.. he's more the type to play the numbers and percentages and use his influence to help his scumpartners, especially the "good" ones. Personally, I'd have a few choice words for any teammate who bused me like Yos "bused" LML D1. It's a valid strategy, but a pretty short-sighted and selfish one imo.

Do you have a specific exchange you have in mind? I think it's also worth remembering that Yos's

first

move was to attack me over my LML vote.

[VitaminR]

VitaminR, at this point, I'm thinking the way you keep misrepresenting the case I made on you yesterday has got to be deliberate. You made me repeat it like half a dozen times, and now you're still pretending you don't know what it was?

You weren't being accused of "buddying" CES, you were being accused of buddying Chamber, as one fairly minor point against you in a much larger case. I'm sure you know that, so I have to wonder why you keep misrepresenting it?

I wasn't referring to you? It was a general comment.

Look, if you're genuinely town, my problem is that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that there's anything townie in the way you're attacking me. You've been on my case for paaaages now, with your every post finding something or other to accuse me of. Literally everything I post is somehow scummy to you. It's unrelenting. You've not given me the benefit of the doubt

once

. Maybe you're really that convinced you're reading the game right and that "justice is on your side", but I don't buy it. You must have played mafia enough to know that you're often dead wrong (as you were about CES, which I could have told you). You also must know me better me as a player to have zero doubts about your read on me. I just really don't believe you're telling the truth in the way you're presenting your thoughts about me.

This post is a prime example. Even if that comment had been directed at you, how is that even scummy? It would have meant that I maybe had misremembered your case or something, perhaps had confused it with something someone else said. Is that scummy?

[VitaminR]

It would have meant that I maybe had misremembered your case or something, perhaps had confused it with something someone else said. Is that scummy?

Ok, is that your defense? Are you claiming you "misremembered" what i said? If my attacks on you are "unrelenting", and if you actually suspect me of being scum, then how can you at the same time be claiming you've forgotten what they are?

You voted for me, and now you're saying you don't remember what my case against you was in the first place? Do you often vote without looking at the posts of the player you're voting for, VitR?

What? No? My comment about CES was NOT directed at you.

I really don't get you, Yos. This is incredibly paranoid and it's not making any sense.

[VitaminR]

What's so scummy about StD, other than PoE and possible Day 1 bussing?

[VitaminR]

VitaminR is also still so, so scum. Yes, VitR, you were buddying CES, and the fact that he flipped town actually

proves that point

not the other way around. You snowed him (along with chamber) and he was your pet townie right up until he became expendable as a counterwagon to your buddy DGB.

Ha, you need a healthy dose of self-doubt in your life. Anyway, whatever your interpretation, I feel vindicated in my choice to go out of my way to defend CES based on the town read I had. You can give me your paranoid reading all you like, but, if I anyone had actually given me credit as someone who

knows

CES instead of levelling all these lazy BS buddying accusations, that mislynch wouldn't have happened.

(Also, honestly, OGML, you don't know any of the players you're talking about well enough. There's no way I could get either CES or chamber to vote with me. Both of them become paranoid of me, if anything, when I defend them. See also Post 2891. Also, CES never became 'expendable' to me.)

MBL:

I'm leaning town on DGB. Her antics at the end of the day yesterday read sincere to me and I don't think the continued push on her is based on very much. She's very much the easy target here, I still think, and that makes me lean town. Also, her reads have mostly seemed genuine to me. One example is the way she refused to lynch LML based on a misreading of his frustration, seems like very much a trap DGB would fall into (I almost did). She's also defended me at times when it wasn't opportune to her (Post 2141 and just now Post 2939).

[VitaminR]

I'm also up for lynching VitaminR.

What do you think of Yosarian, for example the exchange we had today?

Also, chamber, I would still like your answer to Post 2947.

[VitaminR]

Primarily the things that are convincing me to vote for STD are 2118, that CES had a scum read there, the 2 POE sets he's in both pointing to him and matchcam (at least from my pov), and yesterdays hammer.

I went over his ISO with this mind and I guess on balance I'm not quite convinced.

StD's response to MBL's Post 2118 is Post 2146 and it doesn't read to me like found-out scum. Rather, there's a conviction in that response that his actions make sense if viewed from the right mindset and that's hard for scum to muster.

The most scummy thing to me is his continued push on DGB, which is I think what CES also partially objected to, but other people are falling for that trap as well. The rationalization of the CES hammer in Post 2970 also sort of bothers me, seems a lot more elaborate than it needs to be and doesn't really address why he promised an hour and then gave eight minutes. The hammer itself didn't strike me as all that scummy.

[VitaminR]

I'm not sure the conjunction of those is meaningful. To begin with, I don't ascribe any real value to who was where on LML's lists.

I can see some argument perhaps in the idea that it's unlikely there were no scum on the 9-vote BooKitty wagon, which leaves mathcam and StD (counting you as town). I agree that StD is more likely scum than mathcam. But this all seems pretty circumstantial still and I think only has real force if BooKitty is town, which I'm not necessarily convinced of (and even then it wouldn't completely explain why scum apparently let the BooKitty wagon stall with LML on the lynching block, since there still would have had to have been potential scum votes elsewhere).

[VitaminR]

Pretty disappointed at pj for replacing out. Way to take responsibility.

[VitaminR]

I thought CES was going to flip scum, so I spent the last 48 hours of the day yesterday trying to figure out who, out of the people who had defended him (you, chamber, and VitR) was his buddy, by attacking all three of you, putting pressure on you, demanding answers, and generally trying to make it as difficult for you as possible to continue to try to have it both ways on CES. I wanted a hard answer on why you thought he, chamber, and VitR thought he was town, and I wanted it before the lynch happend. I went pretty far out on a limb there to try to get a reaction out of you three.

Can you show me where you did this? I'm having a hard time viewing your attack on me through this lens.

[VitaminR]

Please never answer a question I direct towards someone else.

chamber using these last few pages to play against his own standard of play to either buddy DGB or position himself as an anti-Yos is noted.

This is terrible. I fully agree with chamber that Yos's behavior towards DGB was not at all productive. It just reads like he's trying to dredge up justification for voting her.

@Vitamin:

based on your Post 914 and Post 1122, I would have thought that your vote today would also be locked in. However, you seem to be against a STD lynch for today, which goes against your embrace of the "LML busses like whoa" meta theory.

Thoughts?

Also ignored.

Not intentionally. I'm not necessarily strongly against a StD lynch, though I think there are better candidates (hint: it's Yos.) And sure, I thought it likely that LML did some bussing and that was part of why I went after pj, but not all of it. It was part of a larger pattern of interactions between pj and LML that seemed strange to me. I'm not just going to vote StD because "LML probably bussed". That seems a little simplistic.

[VitaminR]

Not a fan of GC's willingness to go with two easy wagons (DGB and StD). Feels the most slippery out of the people voting for either today.

[VitaminR]

I'll be glad to vote for STD today, and I don't think you're going to get him lynched today without my vote. I just need you to understand that if we do lynch STD today, and he flips town, then that means in my mind that you're almost certainly scum, and I will vote you until you are dead. Which will probably be tommorow; you're the other main suspect right now. On the other hand, if you tell me you're confident STD is scum and he flips scum, I'm probably going to consider you confirmed town until the end of the game.

LOOK AT HOW BAD THIS IS

This is a terrible 'setting up the next lynch'-play, but it's even worse if you consider that it's DGB. Everyone knows DGB loves the dramatic, has a tendency to hyperbolic certainty, but also is not going to back down. This is just so cynically designed to exploit that. Yos knows full well that his threats in no way will soften DGB's stance.

I really don't get why no one is willing to voting Yos with me. There's no reason why we have to choose only between StD and DGB.

[VitaminR]

This isn't a threat. It's a simple statement of fact. There are 4 scum left, and considering the number of confirmed townies and obvious townies, and the pairs of people who can't possibly be scum with each other (you and chamber, OGML and Albert, ect), I think there has to be exactally one scum in the group of (DGB, STD). I have trouble coming up with a scum group that doesn't include one of them. Do you disagree?

Yes. There's so many players left, including two useless hard-to-read lurker slots (SpyreX, OGML). Even if we exclude you and me and all of the pairs you list, how about MBL, or GC, or BooKitty, or Poro? Are you so certain of all of your reads? I can easily think of lots of four-player scum groups that fit your constraints. It seems totally fake to claim that one of DGB and StD

has

to be scum.

[VitaminR]

Not a fan of GC's willingness to go with two easy wagons (DGB and StD). Feels the most slippery out of the people voting for either today.

You're trying really quite hard to find me scummy.

With this new line, you're just ignoring my entire ISO and my stances w/r/t DGB and STD.

I'm not trying to do anything or coming up with any new line. I was just noting that you seem the most content to be on these wagons without doing any digging of your own, just sitting back and letting other people do the hard work.

[VitaminR]

To be clear, there *are* scenerios that don't include either DGB or STD, they just seem very unlikely.

And, if there was any doubt, of *course* I'm not actually suggesting we auto-lynch DGB tomorrow if STD flips town. That would make her likely scum, but no more so then, say, Spyrex.

They seem very unlikely? Really? There are so many 'probably's in your Post 3281 that, if you actually put a figure on them your scenario is the one that ends up being very unlikely.

If you let yourself make a ton of assumptions, then maybe it looks like DGB or StD has to be scum. But the moment you're wrong about one of your four town reads (which seems likely, especially given that almost everyone in this game probably disagrees with at least one of those reads), for example, you'd only have three scum to find elsewhere and there are suddenly a ton of options.

[VitaminR]

FYI, I don't think that I ever said that I'll vote StD. I'd rather lynch one of our useless lurker slots than StD.

[VitaminR]

We all know Spy is scum right? I mean, it's pretty obvious. Are we just saving him for a rainy day?

I'm starting to think you're on to something with this. This slot has been perpetually absent and difficult to read.

[VitaminR]

Niiiiice. I had a feeling StD was going to claim Doc from Post 3182.

I knew DGB was town!

[VitaminR]

It's partly why I made an attempt to push for Yos again after. Though I agree, Yos looks a lot better in his response to the claims.

[VitaminR]

I was more concerned with what you were saying when I replied to that rather than anything to do with StD or DGB. And your reasoning was terrible. The fact that StD turned out to be scum doesn't change that.

[VitaminR]

Will be

V/LA

for the next few days (probably until Tuesday).

[VitaminR]

A CDB lynch doesn't seem like a great idea. We're actually not necessarily all that far into this game. A contributing CDB is much better for the game long-term than a lurker lynch now. StD's attack on the KK wagon also seems significant to me, as MBL pointed out.

I'm inclined to think MBL town for the StD flip. MBL also makes some good points in his last few posts, which I think really help us narrow down the lynch pool. I picked up on the same early MafiaSSK stuff in my re-reading, which makes mathcam likely town, and I agree StD's early scumlist is important (it seems pretty much impossible that there is more than one scum in Seol/BooKitty, GC and Poro).

I'm less convinced about the reasoning for thinking SpyreX is town.

[VitaminR]

Your willingness to lynch StD certainly speaks in your favor, but I'm not convinced it rules you out. And I think the case on CDB is pretty weak.

But, don't worry, the lynch I want today is Yos.

Vote: Yosarian2

[VitaminR]

VitaminR, no, Yosarian is town. How can you not see that? He's not that good an actor.

I know what you're getting at, and I admit it's a worry in the back of my mind. He's said some things that are so overblown (e.g. "Light is on my side. Justice is on my side") that it seems to hard believe they come from scum. But I can't see a scum group that makes sense otherwise and his behavior has been really off for a lot of the game (e.g. his "cases" on me and CES). Do you think StD's list of four players who are scum could realistically include more than two of his scumbuddies?

[VitaminR]

Back from my V/LA and catching up.

[VitaminR]

I'm inclined to think CDB not knowing that the masons claimed is a town tell, if it's not a deliberate play. I'd imagine scum replacing in would probably know this from a QT, even before re-reading.

chamber and VitR, who are your #2 suspects?

Yos, and probably SpyreX. My current thinking is that our scum is in {SpyreX, Yos/GC, Poro, ABR}. Both the SpyreX and Poro read are mostly based on PoE (though I think some valid points have been made about Poro today), but the fact that Poro was in StD's early list of "people we need to pressure" makes me think a SpyreX lynch is a better idea today.

As for the other reads, GC has looked town in some respects (wrt to LML and his general thoughtful manner) but scummy in others (e.g. push on DGB, DGB vote after StD claim, equivocation regarding my Day 1 interaction with LML). I can't see him as scum with Yos, though, given the way they acted as a bloc in voting LML Day 1. ABR I'm probably least sure about. He bought himself some town cred in the first three days because he was actually laying out cases and seemed to have genuine changes of heart. But almost all of his posts in the last two days seem kinda manipulative in a vaguely anti-town way and that is giving me pause.

After 2 deadline mislynches Day 2 and 3, I want to end this day as quickly as possible. There's nothing to discuss, from my perspective. It's clear where everyone stands and how one player relates to another. I just want to see some flips at this point.

You realize you're not helping matters by posting "it's either Poro or CDB" or making threats like Post 3649, right? That's not how you convince anyone. It just comes across as if you're trying to browbeat people into doing what you want, which just creates more resistance to it. If anything, you're slowing things down.

[VitaminR]

I really don't care.

[VitaminR]

Back from V/LA. Will try to read and respond to everything; let me respond to Juls first.

Juls, from my point of view, what happened on day 1 was basically this:

-VitR started out with a vote on LML for a garbage reason

-I called him out for it as my first non-random vote (obviously not a very strong vote at the time, just a better then random one, with a little showmanship added to it to try to help me get a read on VitR)

-As the day went on, though, LML became increasingly scummy, while VitR seemed to just fade off the case, unvote him, and basically fade off into scummy nothingness

-I drove the LML wagon, with a little help from GC and from PJ but from basically no one else for most of the day. I lynched him almost singlehandedly, against the strong opposition of a number of vocal townies like DGB.

Now at the time, since I remembered attacking VitR for his attack on LML, I was thinking that they weren't scum together. But looking at it now, it really looks to me like it was probably an early-game distancing vote with no follow through at all.

This is just so obviously a rewrite of Day 1 according to your own biases. You lynched LML "singlehandedly", while I "voted LML for a garbage reason" and then "faded into nothingness"?

I remember you as a player who is capable of self-doubt and retrospection and this is just so obviously tailored to you fit your current opinions, I'm having trouble believing you would not be able to see that.

I was voting LML for the majority of Day 1. Sure, I was thrown off a bit by pj, but I pushed him extensively before that and he was never out of my sights.

[VitaminR]

You're basically asking me why I don't think the StD push makes him town? I never really found the ratio of certainty to content all that convincing (it was essentially based on StD's responses to two posts by Zorblag and DGB). If he's town, SpyreX processes the game very differently than I do (which is possible). I don't see how you derive a strong scum read from any of Spy's evidence. It was also started way before StD became a real lynch candidate, and doesn't strike me as all that risky a scumbuddy play at that point.

[VitaminR]

Case on VitaminR:

1) He can't see that Yosarian is town
2) He isn't saying anything about MBL's ridiculous vote on me
3) See my case on Day 2 which is pretty much the only time PJ agreed with me
4) He insisted on parking his vote on Yosarian yesterday instead of contributing to lynching STD

You suspect me because I don't share your Yos read? I addressed this earlier today and you didn't reply or make any real attempt to help me see why you have such a strong Yos read.

I don't see why (2) is my job.

I really don't want to return to (3). (I also find it humorous that pj agreeing with you on it is suddenly a good thing.)

If you think (4) is a point against me, then you really have no insight into my playstyle at all. No way I would have made so many equivocal posts about StD if he was my scumbuddy.

[VitaminR]

How would you characterize that as different from your push on LML early D1?

How are they similar? I think they're very different.

I voted LML because I thought he was being opportunistic in his voting, and then backtracked about it under pressure, and because his scumhunting was shallow on several occasions (ignoring the majority of the content his suspects posted). That describes

quite a lot

of his overall play. Even with that, I was never totally sure he was scum, because I know I'm often wrong. (His frustrations read sincere to me initially, for example, and made me think I misread his play.)

In contrast, SpyreX's case seemed to have been based on a relatively small part of StD's overall contributions (his response to DGB's scumputer and a response to a post of Zorblag's). He was always totally certain about StD being scum, though, even though he was not commenting on the majority of the content StD posted (LML did exactly the same thing, incidentally). Either that disconnect is there because he was bussing, or he needs a lot less than I do to be sure that someone is scum. In any case, I don't see how it clears him as a candidate for today's lynch.

[VitaminR]

Yos, you don't get how I think your opinion of Day 1 is a rewrite according to what you think now. How about we look what you claimed to think then? This is what you said:

VitR's attack on LML doesn't look like distancing to me; if anything, he basically started the LML bandwagon, and pushed it aggressively even as it grew.

I guess it's possible that VitR decided that he would literally start off the game first thing by basically bussing one of his scumbuddies right at the start of day 1 just to look extra townie, but I consider that fairly unlikely. If LML flips scum, then VitR is likely to be town.

This is almost diametrically opposed to your interpretation of events now, in which you say it was distancing and I didn't push the wagon at all.

[VitaminR]

Alright, I think it's no longer productive for me to have any continuing discussion with Yos. We're not getting anywhere, and I'm sick of the arrogance, complete intransigence, and of reading insulting posts like Post 3672.

I'm just going to outline why I think he's scum and that's it.

Day 1:
- Day 1 he votes me for my LML vote (Post 108, Post 109), but, when that doesn't go anywhere, he votes LML in Post 379 for

essentially the same reasons I was voting LML

, shallow scumhunting and attempting to have it both ways wrt Tigris (the same stuff I point out in Post 279).
- He declares StD town for "sticking his neck out" and picking fights with strong players in Post 381,

essentially the same thing

he declared me scum for in the 2nd paragraph of Post 108. (Really, go read it. The wording is almost identical.)

His case on me:
- He votes me for criticizing the masons, saying I'm trying to "troll pj" (Post 2005, last paragraph of Post 2046), because of one line in which I said I didn't like pj's chamber vote. Look at the resulting exchange (from Post 2005 onwards). I think it's pretty obvious he's trying to smear me.
- Look at Post 2286 and Yos's response Post 2311. I try to give a reasonable explanation of why I suspect Yos. He responds by clipping out the reasonable part.
- Look at Post 2849, then Post 2884, then Post 2886, and finally Post 2890. I don't see how you can read this exchange and take Yos seriously.
- Changes his opinions in really transparent ways to fit his aims. Day 1, he says I'm instrumental in pushing LML (e.g. Post 433). But today, I'm "distancing" and quickly faded into "scummy nothingness".

Behavior wrt to StD-DGB:
- On Day 4, he sets up a false dichotomy between DGB and StD, saying a few times that one of them has to be scum (Post 3083, Post 3103, Post 3127), even though he read both of them as town previously.
- Then he threatens DGB with "if StD is town, we lynch you tomorrow", and tries to use DGB's understandable reluctance as justification to vote DGB Post 3207. That whole exchange with DGB really feels like he's trying to bully her into saying something he can vote her over.

His pattern of voting has been really opportunistic since Day 2:
- He pushed a CES vote from the beginning of Day 2 hard, based on the fact that CES never really commented on the LML wagon (Post 925). He never follows this up with real scumhunting and just takes advantage of the fact that CES wasn't posting much. He mostly just keeps repeating the same thing over and over without adding any real content or scrutinizing CES's posts in any real way (e.g. Post 1549, Post 1814, Post 1885, Post 2008, Post 2091, Post 2031, Post 2540).
- When the Glork wagon gets going, he ISOs Glork and (surprise!) comes up with the conclusion that Glork is scum (Post 1549).

Yos's scumhunting is the kind of scumhunting that scum does. Once he calls someone scum (LML, CES, undo, me), he just keeps saying that over and over without really considering alternative explanations. The only reads he goes back on are town reads (DGB, StD, Glork, me), when it is convenient to do so. The vast majority of his content is superficial (e.g. calling people obvscum or obvtown, saying a vote is bad) and there's little real analysis or attempts at insight there.

[VitaminR]

Uh, a "false dichotomy" is only a scum tell because scum try to set up false dichotomy BETWEEN TWO TOWN PLAYERS. That's the whole point of the scum tell, it's a way for scum to chain mislynches.

If I say "One of (player X and player Y) is scum, the other one is town" and I was RIGHT, then that's not a false dichotomy at all. It's, for the lack of a better word, a true dichotomy. It's obviously not a scumtell to do that in a situation where you're actually right; there's no scum motivation for it. The fact that you're trying to use this as an argument is pretty scummy on your part, in fact; you're trying to use a scumtell out of context, in a way that obviously makes no sense, in order to bolster your bullshit case on me.

And, yes, earlier in the game, I thought that both DGB and STD were town. That was why I was so sure CES was scum; if my town reads were correct, then there was no plausible scum group that didn't include CES. Once CES flipped town, I knew that at least some of my town reads must be wrong, and immediately started to wonder about STD. I said all this yesterday in so many words, so if you're reading my posts, you already should know that.

You can totally have scum motivation for setting up a dichotomy between scum and town. For example, if you think that people are more likely to vote for the townie if forced to choose. Say if the townie is a particularly easy target, like DGB.

But you'd know this if you bothered to actually read my post. The bit you clipped out (the next bullet point) actually talks about a scum motivation.

In any case, I don't have to know the motivation in order to recognize fallacious reasoning.

The fact is, yesterday, there WAS no plausible scum group that didn't include either STD or DGB. You denied this in your defense of STD, but I noticed you didn't (couldn't) suggest one at the time.

I gave a whole bunch of plausible scum groups in Post 3244 (we had a whole discussion about it!), but you just ignored it because you're unwilling to try to see anything from my perspective.

This is exactly why arguing with you is pointless. You don't bother to properly read anything I say and just keep parroting that I'm scum.

[VitaminR]

MBL, you're confusing a bunch of things here. I was never trying to make the point that my push on LML looked better. The only thing I'm saying is that I don't have trouble seeing SpyreX case as a bus, because there's something strange about his level of certainty (exactly as you say, he never appeared to waver or have any doubts).

[VitaminR]

I never said that SpyreX is likely scum because of his certainty. I said that there was a disconnect in the amount of certainty relative to content in his StD vote, which makes me think we shouldn't be too quick to clear him for it (since that could be indicative of a bus). What you're saying about OGML isn't relevant to this.

[VitaminR]

Are you saying that he was sure that Std was scum, so that's a point in disfavor of Spyrex?

Because I have to completely disagree.

No, not at all. I said that, given the evidence SpyreX presented, I'm not sure why SpyreX was so certain about his StD read and that gives me pause (maybe it was because SpyreX already knew he was right). I explained this all in detail above.

And, ABR, I know I was totally wrong about StD. I just never got why people were so certain he was scum. I made a whole bunch of posts talking about this Day 4. If you need more fodder for your suspicions, there's Post 2132, Post 2251, Post 2947, Post 2994, Post 2997, and Post 3168, all posts in which I talk about how I didn't think StD was the right lynch.

[VitaminR]

So, and I want to get this straight.

I inherit lurkaderpa slot, call a super easy to hop on myslynch town because they were town AND then leap down the throat of my buddy?

I didn't need to make a huge case on STD, because giant cases are a waste of time. That response to zor was enough for me to want fire. His constant smirk was enough to be sure of it.

I'm struggling with this against how little sense you-scum makes with that early d1 stuff but good lord

I agree that it doesn't sound like the smartest move and that part of it certainly speaks in your favor. I guess I just have a lot of trouble understanding sure how you get a strong scum read out of this:

Zorblag is town.

Since he was observing the game as town, all he has to do is dump his suspicions and it looks like he's made a big contribution. If he's scum, it takes 5 minutes to edit if he's nailed his scum partners, and that's even if he wants to. He certainly doesn't have to.

Since he included his replacee in his assessment, it is clear to me he made these notes with a town mindset (before he replaced). Now he has a pro-town artifact that may or may not be damning to scum.

His barf post, while an interesting read, does little to tell us about his alignment. I suppose if he were scum he could have not posted it, but I don't really see a reason not to.

Is your scumputer crap?

I feel like a bunch of people said something like the first thing (correct me if I didn't pick out the right post) and didn't everyone sort of think the second one? I could have easily said both of these things, though perhaps not in the same tone. It's just a little mysterious to me how you picked him out as scum on the basis of these two posts.

[VitaminR]

Yes. There's so many players left, including two useless hard-to-read lurker slots (SpyreX, OGML). Even if we exclude you and me and all of the pairs you list, how about MBL, or GC, or BooKitty, or Poro? Are you so certain of all of your reads? I can easily think of lots of four-player scum groups that fit your constraints. It seems totally fake to claim that one of DGB and StD has to be scum.

MBL? GC? Bookitty? Poro? Really?

GC has far more town cred then most people in the game do, bookitty is very unlikely to be scum, and MBL is obvtown. You're really reaching here.

Fine.

unvote:VitR

vote:Porochaz

Doesn't give us as much information, but

I would be pretty surprised if Prozac flips town at this point

, and getting the scum group down to 2 members should make it a lot harder for town to screw this one up.

(Bolding mine.) In the space of a couple of hours!

Can we lynch Yos now?

[VitaminR]

I had an issue with stance as well now you bring it up again and the explanation still doesn't ring true to me, but there is a lot to his posts that make me feel like he is town. Post 3684 for one just hits all the right spots with me. I am extremely torn here. I think I need to look though day one again to really see how Yos' break down of the day rings true.

I agree he sort of has a point about the dichotomy thing. But don't give Yos a free pass because he picked on the weakest part of my case while ignoring the other parts of it.

[VitaminR]

3759 - defends himself against undo

2740 -

"I have much less confidence in my ability to read you [DGB]" trying to justify his willingness to vote DGB over CES. Isn't this a bit contradictory?

Nope, I read both as town, but had more confidence in my ability to read CES.

2829/30 - "Not particularly eager to hammer CES. Hopefully my streak of being totally wrong will continue". Afraid to look scummy? Trying to keep coherence with his past positions?

Nope, just a sincere statement.

3209 -

"Not a fan of GC's willingness to go with two easy wagons (DGB and StD)".

But the day before, VitR had expressed willingness to lynch Sotty and DGB.

Nope. I was only willing to lynch DGB as a last-minute compromise deadline lynch. Very different things.

3245 - "I was just noting that you [GC] seem the most content to be on these wagons without doing any digging of your own, just sitting back and letting other people do the hard work." Again, pretty much the same thing VitR was doing.

Clearly. The Yos wagon has been such an easy ride.

3622 -

Main suspects: Yos and Spyrex. Also suspects GC. Seems like he suspects the people who attack him the most (and whoever occupies the lurkslot)

Nope. Only Yos actually suspects me out of those three if I'm correct and my suspicions of him grew out the way he attacked me.

3669 -

When MBL asks him to compare Spyrex's push on StD with VitR's push on LML, he says "SpyreX's case seemed to have been based on a relatively small part of StD's overall contributions". However, VitR was calling LML outright scum on page 4.

Nope, I never did that.

3688/693/701/726 - Reiterates argument about Spyrex. I don't really understand this part, though: "I'm not sure why SpyreX was so certain about his StD read and that gives me pause"/"I never said that SpyreX is likely scum because of his certainty"

There's a difference between not understanding something and thinking it's scummy.

my interpretation: most of VitR's posts since Day 3 have consisted of self-defense and Yos-attacking. Plus there's a fair deal of agreeing and very little original scumhunting, all with generally careful wording. Once again, compare this with his first posts of the game. I still think it doesn't add up.

I can't really help that I've had to defend myself. Lots of different people have attacked me at different points. There's almost continuously been at least one person strongly pushing for my lynch. And I think it's a little unfair to say I've done little original scumhunting (go compare your scumhunting wrt me with my scumhunting wrt Yos, is it really that different?).

[VitaminR]

Poro wouldn't be a bad lynch for today.

[VitaminR]

Where there's smoke, there's fire? We can do better than that, surely. Especially when you consider that many, if not most, of the people who've suspected/voted me are of unconfirmed alignment (e.g. Yos, ABR, CDB as OGML, to a lesser extent GC and MBL).

But I concede that you have a point in that I ran out of steam a bit after Day 2 (after I turned out to be wrong about pj

and

Glork). It's only recently that I've felt like I'm getting a little bit of a grip on the game again (and perhaps largely because I found a strong scumread in Yos).

As for obsessing over Yosarian, you realize you haven't voted anyone but me in almost a month, right? (Longer than I've been voting Yos for in any case.)

[VitaminR]

Yos, are you deliberately trying to harass me with Post 3780 or something? That post wasn't at all directed at you and didn't contain anything that should be new to you, yet you have to barge in with this spiteful post. Act like an adult.

[VitaminR]

Yos, I've tried very hard with rational arguments, over and over, but all I've gotten from you is just stuff like "weak", "entirely bullshit", "absurd", "laughable", "garbage", etc. I don't even care that you think I'm scum any more. I'm done trying to persuade you that I'm not. Honestly, every time I see that you've posted in the thread, I kinda don't want to open it, because I know there's a decent chance I'll get upset by it. Even if you somehow aren't scum, I don't think that's excusable. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive, but this is a game, and you've crossed the line of what is acceptable quite a few times in my opinion. And I don't give a shit if you want to say that you don't believe that. I had good memories of playing with you, but those are entirely soured by this whole experience.

[VitaminR]

You do understand that I'm allowed to call you scum if I think you're scum, right? And if you attack me with an argument that's BS, I'm clearly going to call you out on it.

None of that is offensive, or "picking on you". It's called "playing mafia".

I never complained about you calling me scum. I complained about words like "garbage" and "laughable" and "weak" and "absurd". I complained about you stepping in to a discussion with undo that contained nothing new using phrases like "entirely bullshit" and "even more absurd", after I'd already said that I was done discussing things with you.

Frankly, the incredibly hostility you've had towards me for most of this game, and the way that I can't ask you anything without you flipping out on me with page after page of nonsense attacks (while never actually bothering to answer any my question) have really made this game a pretty miserable experience for me. I attack you, you respond by attacking me and claim to think I'm scum. I take your argument apart, you even admit that your argument was wrong (like you did about your "false dichotomy" argument earlier today), but then you keep voting me anyway.

At this point, either you're scum, or if you're town you've been tunneling on me all game with nothing but OMGUS and acting in in an incredibly anti-town way, basically to the exclusion of doing much real scumhunting, and it's been just unbelievably frustrating to play with. I think you're probably scum, and I'm not going to change my mind without a reason to do so; that doesn't actually mean you have to flip out at me and lash out at me all game just because I suspect you. If you are town, it's just not helpful behavior, and all it does is keep my vote on you, and frankly force me to skim your posts rather then hear you repeat the same points over and over again that I've already refuted or that you can't possibly really believe.

This describes pretty well how I feel about

your

posts, as I've been trying to get across for a while.

But I honestly apologize if you feel I've made this game miserable for you. At every point, I've just said what I thought and tried to see your point of view, but I'll concede that I could have been more polite about it on several occasions.

[VitaminR]

Yos, actually, Post 3555 and Post 3659 contain my opinions on almost everyone in the game. Summarized:

Strongly convinced is town: chamber
Leaning town, arranged from most to least town: MBL (StD case), mathcam (MafiaSSK interactions with LML and StD), BooKitty (RB thing with LML, competing wagon to LML), CDB (late KK wagon Day 1, CDB not knowing the masons had claimed)

Which leaves, arranged from least scummy to most scummy: ABR, GC, SpyreX, Poro, Yos

I've switched Poro and SpyreX in my head since Post 3659 and could also put ABR in the leaning town list. I think it's unlikely you are scum with GC given Day 1, so, if I had to hazard a guess now, I'd say {Spyrex, Poro, GC/Yos}.

[VitaminR]

I think it did contain something new, actually. I was pointing out that at the end of the day yesterday, you seemed to be having a change of heart about me, but then I asked you about your defense of STD and then you went right back to attacking me. I don't believe I had mentioned that point before.

You could have just made that point, though.

But it's a fair enough question. There was this rush of enthusiastic discussion after the DGB claim where people were sort of posting right as they were thinking and reevaluating. You were part of that and there seemed to be some genuine enthusiasm in your posts that looked town. I thought about it a bit during the night and still thought my reasons for thinking you scum were stronger. Sometimes it's hard to know what to do with doubts.

[VitaminR]

It's time to put my vote somewhere more productive. I can't really see a scum group that doesn't include Poro.

Unvote, Vote: Porochaz

[VitaminR]

Glad other people are also picking up on some of the odd revisionism in Yos's posts.

I am also curious about this post where VitR says he is not sure if he has ever seen ABR look more town because he has avoided taking the "easy road". This was actually Yosarian's comment but he agreed with it. @Yos and @Vit - do you still feel this way?

Basically. I still feel that ABR has done a few things that make me think he's town (actually trying to build cases, avoiding some easy wagons), which I typically don't. That said, like I said before, I'm not sure I follow his behavior in the last few days that well.

[VitaminR]

Sorry, I missed that first time around. At least a handful? The only specific games I remember are two minis in which we ended up going toe-to-toe. I actually looked them up again myself recently to compare them to this game, though I didn't really feel like I got a ton out of it. I'll give you the links: Wages of Sin and Scenes.

[VitaminR]

I guess MBL is a lot more convincing than I am.

Unvote, Vote: Yos

[VitaminR]

As happy as I am with this wagon, I find the speed with which GC backed off of his Yos vote a bit unsettling. And Post 3946 reads like a guilty conscience.

[VitaminR]

Fair enough. I guess I was just surprised at the speed with which you switched your vote back (it didn't really seem to me like the viability of the Poro lynch changed all that much on that page), and the fact that you felt compelled to justify the Yos vote only in the post when you switched away, and after two people expressed disapproval of those three quick Yos votes (BooKitty explicitly, and MBL implicitly).

[VitaminR]

I guess MBL is a lot more convincing than I am.

Unvote, Vote: Yos

Also: at this point I have no idea what points you and Yos have against each other, and I have 0.00% interest in wading through the muck that is y'all's epic poem's worth of posts going back and forth.

Seriously, if you two are scumbuddies together (MBL's hypothesis), hat tip to you because my god your spat has grown so insipid I can't be bothered to muddle through it.

I don't quite know what you're responding to here. That wasn't intended as a dig or anything, it was just a little bit of self-deprecation.

And, believe me, I'm not at all happy about the state of that back-and-forth either.

[VitaminR]

No worries. Your post wasn't that much of a dig, just wanted to clarify, I guess. I did a write-up that was intended to be like that recently, in Post 3678. I'll confess that some of those bullet points do just tell you to read some of our exchanges, but it at least collects all the relevant links in one place.

At the end of the day, a lot of it boils down to the strong impression that he's not actually interested in understanding where my mindset and reactions are coming from. It's hard to convey that to other players without making you read some of our exchanges. There's lots of little moments where I feel the manipulation is obvious, but it's a lot easier to see if you're right in the middle of the whole exchange.

[VitaminR]

It doesn't affect how I read Yos all that much. Reading it uncharitably, it gave me a brief flash of GC thinking he'd stuck his neck out too quickly for it to be believable as a change of heart (leading to the backpedaling of Post 3946), which wouldn't necessarily imply anything about Yos. I'm fairly satisfied with GC's responses in any case.

[VitaminR]

Sorry Yos, guess we gave each other a hard time over nothing. I really thought I was in the right there.

[VitaminR]

Sotty has a point about the StD-OGML thing, but it feels like reading a lot into not very much. That said, given the Yos flip, I'm starting to doubt my CDB town read a little bit and I agree that he hasn't necessarily looked all that town.

GC, I'm a bit confused by Post 4038. You seem to spend the whole post saying that StD could have lots of different reasons for voting CES at that point, yet you come to the conclusion that you're open to lynching CDB.

You tunnelled like crazy on Yosarian despite no one else listening to you, and this is what you have to say? Sorry Yos? What about sorry town? Do you think the town deserves an apology?

This is an odd post. I don't mean the asinine attempt at guilting me, but it's a really strange way to talk to the person you claim to think is scum.

[VitaminR]

VitaminR, now that Yos has flipped town, can you provide some comments/revised reads (or the same reads, if they have not changed)? Same question for MBL, please.

GC looks a bit scummier to me, if only because I thought my scum read on Yos made him likely town. I'm also starting to feel like I could have been wrong to read mathcam and CDB town. I still think MBL is town, though, even if his case on Yos turned out to be as misguided as mine. It felt like he sincerely believed he was onto something.

[VitaminR]

It's all in my posts from the last day. In brief, MBL had a good point about the timing of the KK counterwagon Day 1 and OGML gave me a gut town read.

[VitaminR]

What's so terrible about Post 4046?

And the notion that anyone deserves to be lynched for being wrong is stupid.

[VitaminR]

A fair amount of it is his conviction. He presented a bunch of really strong reads, which I wouldn't really expect scum to do, either because they actively limit your options later or because they attract attention.

For example:
- Being really transparent about this thinking (Post 2489 and Post 2363).
- Ruling out certain scum pairings (Post 2581 and Post 2443).
- Coming out strongly against certain lynches (Post 2556).
- Being superconvinced that DGB is scum (almost his entire ISO).

It just really reads like someone who is posting their thoughts on the fly and not someone who is thinking about long-term strategy (as scum would).

In addition, some of his anger (e.g. Post 2817, Post 2824, Post 3051) seemed quite sincere to me.

[VitaminR]

chamber, talk to me about your CDB vote. I'd particularly appreciate your opinion on Post 4059.

[VitaminR]

I can't really fault anything you said in that post, I just do my best not to look at reasons for why people may be town. Scum are trying to fake those things, and different players can do so quite effectively. Do you have a good reason to believe OGML would be bad at faking rage? That withstanding I don't think any of your points are strong enough to counteract the scummy things from the slot.

I suppose you have a point. Leaning towards voting CDB also. He hasn't looked that great, and I feel a lot better about the people voting CDB than about the people voting Poro.

[VitaminR]

Alright, I'm just going to vote CDB if he doesn't show up soon.

[VitaminR]

Ah, this day has gotten me out of the rhythm of posting. Agree that CDB should claim.

[VitaminR]

Vote: mathcam

I'd be really surprised if he wasn't scum at this point, with those two dodgy hammers.

[VitaminR]

Your Yos hammer seemed quite forced to me and both hammers reminded me of StD's CES hammer in how they cut off discussion.

I've been giving you a pass for way too long because I've been getting this careful pro-town vibe from you, but neither of those hammers fit that profile at all.

[VitaminR]

I'm also vanilla.

[VitaminR]

Eh,

Unvote

. I'm not sure I like this vote that much any more. mathcam is one of the only players who seems sincerely engaged with this game.

@Vitamin R:

Is your vote on mathcam primarily based on the two somewhat quick hammers? Do you have other reasons to think he's scum?

It was mainly PoE and the two quick hammers.

Agree that it seems worth waiting for MBL.