A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Plessiezarus]

Vote: Snowstorm

Welcome to Mafiascum. ~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Umm, I don’t see this (the part about picking scum can be worse that 2 townies dying)

. Scum already have a nightkill. Giving them one extra vig shot cannot cause that much more mayhem

, esp vs killing a scum off. Plus it would lower down the suspect pool if they’re a suspicious person.

In either case, I see killing off a suspicious person doing more good than harm. Choosing someone out of policy is pointless. Why no policy lynch the first day and have the suspicious person sent to kill Snow instead?

I beg to disagree? Giving a potential scum a strongman kill sounds like an extremely bad idea. You'd be basically giving them an unstoppable freebie for signing off plus their factional kill.

~Zar

[Plessiezarus]

I disagree that this should be used as a second scum lynch and if that makes me scum in everyone's eyes so be it.

So what do you think it should be used as?

And why are you choosing yourself?

I think it should be the hands of a VT. A townie who has nothing to lose, but would still follow the wishes of the majority.

If it ends up in scum hands, we won't know where it lands.

I didn't want to claim this early, but I'm choosing myself because I know that I am town and that I have nothing to lose.

BUT

WHY.

WHY

WHY ARE YOU ALREADY DOING THIS.

~Zar

[Plessiezarus]

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

EBWOP = doesn't

[Plessiezarus]

Had a chance to talk things over with Pless a bit, so this is a proper two-headed hydra post.

We both think Regfan (and, as he says, Edd) look pretty good at the moment. [Pless isn't sure he quite agrees with the description of Arthur as "batshit", but overly-aggressive in a slightly unfocused way? Sure.]

@Snow Storm

- Out of interest, we'd like to know if you've read any of the previous Eddard Stark modded games on this site?

(SnowStorms's vote-and-run entrance is, partly depending on the answer to the above, a little suspicious, sure.)

Don't really see much merit in current votes against Starbuck (we can understand the frustration, just not suspicion). Don't see the merit in the Feysal votes either. In fact, some of the posts voting/choosing Feysal seem kind of contrived. (Well, "some of the posts" = "Salamence's post" really.)

We don't understand why people would choose themselves. Following some private discussion, we both now favour choosing somebody as essentially a second lynch. Can't see any real point in choosing people this early though.

Have an eye (or four) on Minimum (this is mostly/entirely CES posting at the moment, yes?) as well.

~ Zar

[Plessiezarus]

My biggest scum read is on Minimum though. Think both Mina and CES were posting last night, with Mina being the one posting words and CES being the one just jumping votes.

Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?

@Plessie

– Um is BBMolla playing this game? If so can you tell me who he is masquerading as?

Er. I am confused. Since he's on the player list and he's posted on the thread, I'm guessing that he is playing, yes?

So, again, which is it?

Why haven't you answered my question yet?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?

Nope! That would be silly. I know that you don't presume that though and wouldn't have to ask, so I'm not quite sure the point of that particular question

I was wondering why you have a scum read on Minimum? Obviously.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Umm, misrepmuch?

[...]

Your reasons on the other hand seem to make no sense. You want to give it to someone we suspect is town?! But who we will somehow magically determine to be VT?

I agree with you on how to use the choosing, but you are guilty of some misrepresentation of your own here. Starbuck is claiming VT and choosing themselves. There's no "magical determination" involved in that plan.

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

Did your question have any more motivation that just this?

Yep.

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games. We're actually feeling a bit better about him now. (Zar thinks #194 looks like being a town-tell for SS, for instance.)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Hey, D.Edd, is all the content you've been posting purely Arthur content?

Either way, could you please get into the habit of signing your posts?

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Unchoose, choose: redff

P.S. Zar, is all your scum meta on me that one Westeros game?

My read on you is based on the games I've had some degree of interaction with you. The WoT game, the Westeros Mini and the TM White Flag. ~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

I think one of the advantages of not knowing who I'm playing with is that my reads are unbiased. Reading other games they've played in would probably change that.

What are your reads, so far? ~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Tbh, no, I wasn't really interested in the answer. But throwing out vague statments that are missing the the key component - the

why

- is rather tedious to deal with.

Okay, gotcha .

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer?

I wasn't asking to test him.

I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.

1) Where did I say you were testing him? If you wanted to see what he was thinking, why did you not share your thoughts and explain why/if you disagreed?

2) Why is Benmage "very likely town"? Statements that are missing the

why

are so tedious to deal with, after all...

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

VOTE: Pandora

I hated how he come right in and started defending Feynal...reeks of scumbuddies...

So I say we lynch one and send the other to the wall

Alek, can you explain What in the said Feysal defense makes you feel this way?

Snow and Refgan are town, obviously so, I know Snow it wayy to awkward as scum to be posting this much

and Refgan hates being scum and tends to over lurk alot, I know meta boo, w/e

Sorry, but no. SnowStorm's reaction to Tammy's comment reads nervous and unrelaxed. I also don't see how your concept of "posting this much" is an aligment tell coming from him (have you glanced at the activity overview?, SS is a currently a mid-tier poster). IMO, it would be quite hypocritical from us to say that SnowStorm's posting activity is suspicious. His posting content, on the other hand, leaves a lot to say.

Alek, out of sheer curiosity, have you read any other Regfan games in either site?

~ Zar.

~Quote tags fixed

[Plessiezarus]

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Turns out being a hydra isn't a magical way of reducing the amount of work you need to put into a game after all. Who knew?

I suggest reading through this it's the ISO of the only game at mafiascum that I've played with Hyperion and the play there to here is very very different.

Read this (well, skimmed some of it). It is different, yeah. But it was a newbie game and his first on this site. His recent games at Westeros would seem to be more relevant, to me. Certainly his posts so far seem closer to the Fringe game (as town) than to his posts before being replaced in the First Law game (when he was scum). Did you really think he said anything particularly constructive or helpful

on day 1

in the Fringe game?. I still don't find him that suspicious.

Completely disagree with Regfan saying that

sword_of_omens

saying "WE kill scum" is a town tell. His opening post and the reads he espoused in it were pretty bad, although I need more from him.

Yeah, I don't like sword either. Zar suggests the lack of engagement could be a town-tell, though (I guess he can expand on that himself later).

Liked

Edd

's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is).

While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.

I don't remember

Cow

being this overconfident and prone to exaggeration when I've seen him play before, but the bravado has an obvious town motivation even if it's faked. More likely town than scum, but I'm not as certain of it as everyone else is

Um.

Is

everyone else certain of this? Can't see him as anything but null at the moment.

Have a weak town read on

StefanB

and a super-weak one on

Jal

based mostly on the tone of some of their posts.

I think I agree with both of these. (Haven't persuaded Zar yet.)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Oh, and also:

Plum

is totally null for me. It would shock me if there were only 0-1 scum on my wagon, so I could see Plum being competent scum, I guess.

[a long post]

Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.

Was it meant to be obvious what your read on Plum has changed to? Because it wasn't to me .

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Yeah, I don't like sword either. Zar suggests the lack of engagement could be a town-tell, though (I guess he can expand on that himself later).

Well, mostly my own experience in the Metroid Game, where I replaced SoO as House Lannister. Sword was highly disengaged in that game and had what, 4 posts by 12~13 pages?

Hyperion is indubitably scummy and our vote is going there. VOTE: Hyperion I simply cannot put it in plainer words but that Hyperion is scum. If you need to ask I will line-by-line his contributions without resorting to ALL CAPS RAGE.

But Hyperion is very very scummy. And if he

is

total lynchbait and someone has very useful meta on him, please post or point out where it's been mentioned kthx.

Hyperion's meta in Westeros is very similar to the behavior he's sported for the moment. He is a player that traditionally gets mislynched and definitely not somebody I'd choose to give a gun to because of previous anti-town game experiences. His latest Westeros game just finihsed this monday, his alt was "Olivia Dunham" (which has now been recycled to Mr. Immortal (MS won't let me link to the shortened address, so remove the space there: http://tiny url.com/greatjim). (On a side note, Westeros alted games can be tough to read partly because alt accounts get randomized and recycled after every game.).

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Alek-head of D. Edd, i'm waiting for your answer, kthx. ~Zar

[Plessiezarus]

Plssie/Zar, obviously you short term memory is wacky has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

I asked you if you had read any

other

games, since you seem to sound so convinced of your "meta goodness" on Regfan. Given that you were one of Regfan's converters to Mafia in the Fringe game, it should have been evident to you that the meta you're using could be used to analyze how Regfan acts according to

either

alignment.

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hyperion

As far as I can tell, this is the first thing you've had to say about Hyperion all game. Care to explain your vote?

Pless is always more of an attacker as town

With the confidence you say this, I almost forget that you've only seen me play three games . (I also don't think I was much of "an attacker" in the First Law game -- my memory of that game is largely of me posting a couple of (incorrect) town reads, arguing about theory with people, and then being killed at night because the healer/doc decided to ignore the fact I kept posting "heal me" in large, friendly letters.)

Nah, Pless. People can draw their own conclusions on Plum.

I know what I think about Plum. I wanted to know what

you

think about Plum. I still do?

I think this also explains why I haven't "contributed" much and my lack of suspects. I don't think there's a single subject that hasn't been touched by meta and I can't evaluate anything that is related to meta from a player I'm not familiar with.

Are you saying you plan to be this unhelpful

all game

?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum

Er. Right, so:

1) Regfan's early posts made you assume he was town.

2) When you read him in iso, you decided he was suspicious, because...

3) Posting summaries and reads of lots of players is something you tend to do as scum.

Since I actually

have

reread Regfan recently, I'm finding this a bit hard to swallow. His very first post -- one of the posts that made you assume he was town -- is a big summary/read of lots of players. But apparently you find this sort of post suspicious .

Does MoS always play like this?

This is a good question. I'm sure I remember MoS from one of the earlier Eddard Stark modded games (Feast?) and this isn't how he seemed to play then .

Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent

I didn't say it was old. I mean, I didn't skim

that

much. It was still a newbie game though, and I'm not sure why we should give it more weight than recent big games. (I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree about Hyperion's day 1 play in the Fringe game, which I didn't think was good at all.)

While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
Pless

He's been evil now three times as he's played it twice here. Here's a link to his most recent scum game that I know of. We were lover partners in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258

Right, I just meant "at Westeros". Thanks for the link - I'll look over it later today.

I don't know that you can say Pless is

always

anything

either

I read the underlined at "annoying" when I first looked at your post. And I was going to say that maybe Edd had a point .

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

Could you expand on how you view any of that as sniping from the sidelines?

Ooh, I'll field this one for Arthur!

Spoiler:

No, he can't.

Plssie/Zar,

obviously you short term memory is wacky

Remember when I said you were going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur was giving your hydra? Yeah, you keep knocking off town notches. I don't know if it's because you're getting cocky because you finally won a scum game or you just think that insulting people for no reason makes you look town, but either way you might want to rethink your approach.

I can't remember what I was going to say in reply to this

with Arthur as his co-head, it's not really surprising Alek would go for this approach, is it?

Third:

Hyperion’s “placeholding” Quote Wall would have been better served being saved as a draft; posting it looks like he just wanted to get something that looked like there might be thought and substance behind it on the board before too much more of the game went by him. Also, I think it’s reeeally reaching to go to the sign-up thread and find a post made before anyone had role pms and use it to justify an attack.

It looks like you are already suggesting multiball, but then attack Feysal for suggesting ti [

sic

].

I can see where you're coming from with your other points against Hyperion (and can only point to the chorus of people saying "no, this is how he plays as town, honest"), but I don't get this. Edd was attacking somebody for assuming the game was multiball. It seems perfectly natural for Hyperion to point out that lots of people clearly assumed it was (going to be) multiball -- the fact the post he quotes is from the sign-up thread (before anyone, including Edd, had a role PM) just makes the contrast between that post and Edd's later "wow, who said it was multiball?" stance the more striking. Don't see anything wrong with going back to compare the two.

Fourth:

Shadow: His snarky play reminds me very much of the last game, when he was scum.

Could somebody who played in AFFC perhaps make a list of who was scum for me? As far as I can tell, it's not been revealed on the game thread, which currently only goes up to page 60 / the start of day 3 (I assume because of the board crash a while back?).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Okay

Unchoose

Choose: Shadow

Will think later who is better to lynch, who to be our assasin (if we have to use this tactics. )
At the moment I am using this as 2 votes.

So Stefan, have you given this some thought yet? Who would you rather send to the wall?

As for you,

I haven't played with Zar much

as he mods just about every game On Westeros..

Alek I don't remember us playing any games ever, so I don't know where/what you're basing your meta on me :S
89 (The R'hllor game) was your first mafia game, right? The only game I've played since is 91.5 (the Double handed Mafia Mini), which you did not play.

No, it means I'll be able to read them better once there's more than meta to work with, like a lynch...

Your passive stance is out of character though. Why aren't you questioning players? Isn't there anything that you have found odd this far in game?

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Pless is indeed sniping from the sidelines. I don't know if this is a typical feature of his play, but for example, calling Arthur out on hypocrisy as he does in Post 355 is pretty pointless and reads like an unnecessary attempt to rile him up. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell.

Hypocrisy isn't automatically a scumtell, no. But when somebody is pressed to give reasons for a claimed town-read or scum-read, and can only offer arguments that are incredibly inconsistent with their prior stances or their own behavior, then that

is

suspicious. I also have no idea why you'd classify my post 355 as "sniping from the sidelines" - Edd asked me a question, I replied and asked some questions of my own. If I was commenting on people who weren't talking to me, sure, you could call that "sniping from the sidelines" if you wanted. But saying slightly pointed things to people I was already involved in a dialogue with? . Hardly.

By the way, Edd, you're still free to answer those questions whenever you like.

You can explain the inconsistency behind your suddenly acquired doubts about Regfan that I point out in Post 517, while you're at it.

Something else I'd like from Pless--follow-up on the reason you asked Regfan about his townread on me.

I asked Regfan about his town-read on you because Zar and I don't see it (we thought and think you look pretty bad). Since Regfan generally has good town-reads and we agreed with most of his others so far this game, we wanted to see if he could convince us we were wrong. He didn't.

At this point

no one

speculated at anything relating to multiball, so coming off like that and saying it without saying something like "assuming" or something, yes, it's suspicious.

This is still a ridiculous reason to suspect anybody. The post you quote is not at all suspicious.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Arthur, stop fluffing the thread, would you? This is not The Thread That Never Ends.

1) Pless asked you about your

Sudden transformation into CES

silent vote on Hyperion and the reasons behind it.

2-3) Back in 355 we had some questions regarding your assessment on Benmage:

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer?

I wasn't asking to test him.

I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.

1) Where did I say you were testing him? If you wanted to see what he was thinking, why did you not share your thoughts and explain why/if you disagreed?

2) Why is Benmage "very likely town"? Statements that are missing the why are so tedious to deal with, after all...

~ Pless

and, 4) While you're at it, would you please address the incongruence pointed in 517?

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Plessiezarus, besides me, who are your scum-reads?

You're still our top suspect. We're also feeling pretty suspicious of Tyene, redff and, after Post 535 and Post 538, bvoigt. (Those three are pretty much in order of how much we suspect them.) Mina's more recent posts have not done much, if anything, to allay our earlier doubts about Minimum, who we'd rank just below those four. To a lesser extent, we have bad feelings about greenknight (formerly

sword

), Feysal and Salamance.

* We're currently working on a post about Tyene

blame Zar if it's not finished soon

.

* redFF spent the start of day 1 pushing what felt like a slightly dodgy case against Starbuck. After being V/LA for most of the week, he returns to the game to ... continue this argument with Starbuck? Ugh. Would like some signs of effort being made to scum-hunt.

* bvoigt's attack on Staeg for demanding Starbuck name-claim seems contrived. Either it's "anti-town" or it's "not dangerous" - it can't be both. (Also, "needing to reread" Edd seems like an excuse not to offer an opinion on a vocal player as much as anything else: seems implausible that one could 'not notice' somebody with so many posts.)

* Didn't like the fact that sword spent so much of his catch-up post (Post 342) rehashing the discussion about the correct way to use the choose mechanic. Seemed like a very safe topic to stay on. Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.

* While we don't find Feysal's implicit assumption of multiball suspicious, we get the sense that he's avoiding pushing any new ideas or suspects. He spends more time discussing past games or general theory than seems helpful.

* We already said that Salamence's vote in Post 56 looks bad. Don't like many of his later posts either (especially Post 393, which seems weirdly defensive). Also rather like MoI's point against him in Post 525.

On the other hand, we're pretty sure that Tammy, Pandora, Regfan, Starbuck and BBmolla are town (names in decreasing order of confidence). Fairly sure about all five, but especially of the first three. Think enough has been said about why already.

Much weaker town-reads on Amrun (really on

pappum

), Benmage, Jal, MagnaOfIllusion, Mockingjaye, Plum+Nacho, Shinori (really on

Hyperion

), Staeg and Stefan. Note sure what we think about Shadow1psc (we can't come to a consensus at the moment, but we're debating it) or Edd (who veers between sounding incredibly townish and sounding ... well, not). And of course we're still waiting for Edd to answer our questions...

Unvote: Benmage

Why did you decide that now was a good time to unvote? Weren't you earlier saying there was no need to do this yet?

~ Pless (but this is much more of a proper hydra post than usual)

[Plessiezarus]

"In a game with 2 evil factions, an evil player who knows he can be killed by the other team will tend to avoid a leadership position, and avoid showing himself to be among the best players, because he doesn't want to be killed. He'll be more under the radar - he doesn't have to be the quietest...he just needs to be less aggressive and less of a threat than some of the other players."

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work on MS (where, for one thing, multiball games are a lot more common; any easy way of spotting scum like this would have inevitably ceased to work after a while, if it ever did).

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's rubbish anyway, it's just that in Westeros games I don't want to say so .

Anyway, this is just yet more fluff. Your time would be better spent

answering people's questions

. Please do.

~ Pless (unlike the last post, this is just me)

[Plessiezarus]

Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.

That's simple enough... It's a 28p game which means a lot of inertia in terms of moving wagons to the point of being a serious lynch threat. Since my predecessor wasn't actually voting and catching up will take a while, it's correct play to place initial votes quickly imo.

This explanation doesn't make much sense to me. If you think it's hard to move wagons in a big game, adding your vote to the biggest wagon is surely not going to make it easier to pressure new people. And until you've caught up on the thread, how can you be confident that the most popular wagon in the middle of day 1 is also the best wagon?

Mina's reaction to this vote is more the sort of thing we were expecting to see from a town-Mina. Would have probably been more convinced by a non-edited version of Post 641 though (assuming such a non-edited version actually existed, of course).

I still don't like the Minimum wagon, so I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: Shinori

to give a little competition for a better option.

At the point you cast this vote Shinori and SnowStorm were tied on five votes each. What do you think of SnowStorm? Don't think you've mentioned him as a town-read, or ... well, at all, yet. Can't see that you mentioned Shinori before, either. Why Shinori over SnowStorm? For that matter, why not try voting for Tyene? (She's the only person you've really talked about suspecting to date.)

And yes, we promised a post about Tyene. Still working on it. Will respond to Edd's long post later too (just reading it was effort enough for now).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

OK. Tyene first, then we'll respond to Edd's big post.

People have already pointed out that Post 247 is a bad post. There's no good reason to choose somebody you think is a bad lynch (and Tyene's stance on choosing had earlier been that you should choose people you'd want to lynch; see for instance Post 45). Her responses when challenged about this post (see Post 261-, Post 569) seem disingenuous - she spends a lot of time focusing on things other than the incongruity of choosing somebody you've just called "a bad lynch". And the oft-repeated "I'm just sheeping Regfan because the game's so hard to follow" excuse wears a bit thin; it seems to be something she brings up to defend odd looking votes, but ignores when she's promoting her own pro-town credentials (see for instance Post 414).

More generally we have the sense that Tyene cares more about what people think of her than she does about hunting scum. She actually has some good posts (we quite like the redFF vote as explained in Post 91, for instance) but things don't seem to fit together quite right.

* Don't like the repeated defense of Edd. This might be what Regfan called a town-tell for Tierce earlier (in Post 425) but to us it feels like more than defending a town-read. It feels like an attempt to buddy up to Edd. (The repeated remarks to the effect that she "could do worse than sheeping Regfan" also feel at times like an attempt to curry favour with Regfan.) It doesn't seem that Tyene has ever seriously wondered about Edd's alignment; she's just looking for a reason to call him town.

* Given that she's claimed to be sheeping Regfan because "there are walls that I have skimmed at most, and at this stage I'm following the game mostly by virtue of reading Regfan's posts.", it seems odd that she'd chide Shadow1psc for "wanting to stifle discussion" or berate MoS for daring to vote for somebody before reading them in iso. Yes, "hypocrisy is not a scum tell", but this sort of disconnect seems very strange. The posts aimed at Shadow1psc and MoS seem like attempts to gain town-credit by mouthing platitudes ("discussion is good", "town players should be careful and reread before voting"). They don't seem like the sort of things you'd say if you were finding it hard to keep up with the thread and needed to rely on another player's summary posts. But this is exactly what Tyene has claimed.

* Although we suspect SnowStorm (and encourage more people to vote for him), we don't like the manner in which Tyene does so. We didn't find SnowStorm not unvoting Benmage all that suspicious. As Snowtorm says himself, there was no scum-motivation for him to keep his vote on Benmage while declaring him a town-read. Benmage was in no danger of being lynched. It's "odd", maybe, but surely not

suspicious

. In Post 352 it seems to us that Tyene is just happy to have a found a vote that other people have explained for her. She's very careful to point out that she's just agreeing with Regfan and Lyanna here. This vote does not seem consistent with her Post 417 ("You should stop assuming stupid = scum") or her irritated response to MoS's "lazy" vote on her. The fact somebody's actions seem to make little sense shouldn't automatically lead you to assume they are scum.

* Something about the repeated RP also gets on our nerves. It feels slightly too self-aware, as if she knows people are going to gloss over it. (Certainly, the closing line of Post 93 - in which Tyene preemptively defends a possible mislynch of Feysal on the grounds he'd make a good vig-choice - seems like something that would have attracted more comment if it wasn't cloaked in RP language.)

Tyene

: can you link to other games in which you've defended your town-reads (as town yourself, preferably)? Can you link to any theme games in which you've RPed in this way before, for that matter?

Why (and when) did Minimum go from being a scum-read (as late as Post 554) to being somebody whose survival you "would much appreciate"?

~ Pless (but really this is a proper hydra post)

[Plessiezarus]

So it’s much better right now to create pressure than really having to believe in your vote. I’m not saying just bandwagon or something, but you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point. At least, that’s the way I see it, because otherwise, scum can easily slip by.

Ok. Fair enough. Now, can you tell me how did you intend your vote on Hyperion to cause pressure if you did not state any reasons for it?

As I said, he started the game out strongly, jumped right in, wasn’t really cautious, and really started scumhunting at an early stage. I think the majority if not all of scum would start the game on a cautious note especially in a game this large. You know, if you put yourself in a scum shoes, would you just really come out and start posting a lot and interact and stuff, or would you lean more towards the side of cautious?

Can you point at the posts that make you feel this way?

That’s why upon reading Regfan’s post first, my mind clicked right away “town”. Upon assessing it, however, it really didn’t strike me as town as it did the first time around, and I realized that someone can easily begin the game like that and look strong while merely just writing a lot of words summarizing and putting tiers and stuff.

Ok, so something in Regfan's post is rubbing you off wrong. Can you give me some insight at what you think is iffy about Regfan's summary post in this game as compared as what he's done in other games? Or, can you just tell me what you find off in his summary?

Umm, not really sure. I really can’t speak for Alek, but for me, I really don’t take “I suck” or something along those lines as you’re not getting lynched. Sorry I can’t really expand on this. But me and Alek are really two different people <_<

This isn't addressed to us, but touches on a point that has been bugging Pless. You seem to assume that players should discern which Hydra head has said what? Not everyone here is familiar with either of you, and

Plessiez can't distinguish you for his life

some of us aren't that good at noticing posting quirks in people (unless you of course are Mina and CES, in which the difference in

the gargantuan verbosity of Mina is obvious

posting style is rather evident, --well unless Mina takes vow of silence, which she could but it then would be boring and we'd be yelling at her for it?--). I would appreciate if from now on you would make clear which head is saying what, and, for the sake of everyone's sanity, at least

try

to start acting like a single slot. Also,

this is why Hydras should sign their posts

.

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Why is Post 247 a bad post?

The only people bringing it up have been MoS (for reasons he cannot keep up once questioned about it) and Hascow (who hasn't explained it yet)

. And yes, there are reasons for choosing someone you think is a bad lynch, namely that you're putting a vig choice in their hands. I've explained this, Regfan has explained this, this isn't rocket surgery.

The underlined isn't actually true (but I'm only saying this since sniping from the sidelines is so fun). In any case, the number of people bringing it up so far isn't really relevant to whether or not Zar and I find it to be a bad post.

As for defending townreads, Regfan has already touched on this. Yes, I defend townreads. A lot. Won't bother linking--basically, check any and all of my games. As I've said, I'm a better townhunter than scumhunter, so watching how people interact with my townreads and how they make points against them is a good way for me to get later reads.

This still doesn't quite feel like what you're doing with Edd though . (Had a skim through day 1 of Weather Mafia II and your town-defending in that game seems different to what you're doing here. Perhaps that's mainly because the person you seem to spend the most time defending in that game, BBmolla, is somebody you then flip completely on and push to be lynched .) I guess if enough people who've seen you play insist this fits your town meta I'll have to accept that I'm wrong, but

I don't like admitting I'm wrong

it's still bothering me for now.

Anyway, might have a longer response to this once I've had a chance to talk things over with Zar.

Shinori and redFF: still doing nothing. Votes plz.

I agree with the Totally Anonymous Head of the furry critter re: Shinori and redFF. Town guns pointed this way please and thank you.

You aren't actually voting for either of them yourself though ...

We think that redFF is a much better choice to be lynched than Shinori. I don't know enough about him to know if he's a sensible choice to choose, though, and I'm still happiest with our vote on SnowStorm. If people think redFF is a poor person to give a strongman vig-shot to, I wouldn't mind voting for redFF and choosing SnowStorm. SnowStorm hasn't offered much in the way of reads, but I at least agree with the few town-reads he's come up with.

I also agree with people who are suggesting switching Shadow1psc and Minimum as lynch/choose options. I don't think either are ideal, but I'd trust either Mina or CES with a vig-shot more than Shadow1psc after reading Post 419.

@Minimum

: I'd actually prefer to see more bitchiness and self-pitying instead of telling us how you could have/were going to be moreso. Being a bitch and sore about yourself can come across as very genuine and sometimes town-like.

... and in any case, those posts are always fun to read .

[Plessiezarus]

*sigh* Knew I'd mess up sooner or later. Obviously (or not?) Post 669 is me, not Zar.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I also agree with people who are suggesting switching Shadow1psc and Minimum as lynch/choose options. I don't think either are ideal, but I'd trust either Mina or CES with a vig-shot more than Shadow1psc after reading Post 419.

I don't get this. You were criticizing me for my lynch/choosing theory (that is, you

pick a good player who is a scumread to get Chosen and Lynch the chaff

) but now seem to have a similar logic. What

is

the problem with Post 247, then?

The situations aren't symmetric. People who are good choices to be Chosen are a proper subset of people who are good choices to be lynched.

Somebody who is a bad lynch is (surely by definition?) somebody you want to keep in the game for now. Such a person is, necessarily, also a bad choice to be Chosen. However, somebody can be a bad choice to Choose even if they are a good lynch. If player A and player B both look scummy then they are both good lynch choices. But if player A has repeatedly claimed that if Chosen they'll vig somebody I consider a strong town player, they are a bad choice to be Chosen.

I was not criticising you for the underlined, above. There's nothing wrong with Choosing a good player who is also a scum-read. My problem with the implicit logic of Post 247 is that by saying Minimum is a bad lynch you suggest you

don't

have a strong scum-read on them. Otherwise, how are they not a good lynch? And if Minimum is a bad lynch, you should not Choose them.

Preview-edit: Or, yeah, what Jal says.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Mina, I have a question for you, regarding the evolution of your Plum read.

Back in 455 you said you could see Plum as competent scum in your wagon, but expressed some doubt on your confidence on that statement.

but by 461 your opinion changed to:

Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.

Which both Pless and I interpreted as you implying that you thought Nacho-Plum looked bad.

Thus, I'm kind of lost with your comments about them on 553, where you seem to have a slight-town read on the slot, since we had understood your previous comments about them somewhat differently.

Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination? Or can you walk me through it?

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination?

Yes.

#458 is totes townish (although I remember thinking it was bad before, probably a first impression type deal, that, which might go some way to explaining the miscommunication).

Thanks CES?. Or did Mina really take that vow of silence ? If you didn't

and that was just CES trying to take you out of the limelight

can you (Mina) walk us through your train of thought, though? I mean, seems only fair since you took from us the joy of reading your breakdown.

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

their attempt to get me to explain my town read on Tierce and then progression to continue to think she's mafia elaborating on their reasoning is very townie even though I think they're wrong on her (Like really really wrong,

Zar you should trust me on this read

and her defending town-reads is her town-meta). Simiarily I like the way they're trying to get more out of Edd but fairly sure he's town too (His explanation over his paranoia about me actually makes quite a bit of sense so I think you're pushing a dead end now).

You know Regfan, given my history with you, I'd like to say I would want to trust your read, but tbh there's a part of me that doesn't. Not because I've withdrawn my opnion on you being town (I don't find any of your contributions so far suspicious, and find many of my thoughts mirrored in yours, plus your continued attempt to get us both to reconsider our reads based on what you've exposed so far only reinforces my townish read on you), but it's mostly because of experiences I've had in games we've both been somehow involved in. Setting aside the disastrous astray of the town in the WoT game in Westeros, I've seen you defend reads you deem strong for weak reasoning before. Back in the Scummies you had Gaoth/Magua build up suspicion around me based on you knowing I prefer playing Scum over Town. I kept following your case on obvTown Johhog on the TM Mountainous: it spun around a comment from Isa -from outside game- in which he had mentioned he was excited about playing the White Flag (and then you coming to find Johhog in his stead). So yeah, when I find that we either don't agree or we're not following along with your reasoning to a read, I prefer asking for an explanation to see where the difference is coming from, and then do my own discernment.

As far as Edd goes, the heads behind that Hydra are somewhat erractic and their logic is not normally straightforward, regardless of alignment. I'd advise you (and others) not to automatically shelve them as town just because the hydra is talkative and posting a lot. Arthur and Alek are both always chatty/high activity, overeager players and Alek has actually been lying comparatively low in this game. Him not having stepped up to the playground even when Arthur has claimed indefinite V/LA, and has done little to engage in the hunt leaving the bulk to Arthur is uncharacteristic of him.

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Scum reads on minimum, Bvo, shadow, snowstorm

Hmm. Shinori, when did you start suspecting SnowStorm, exactly?

Went back to look at you in iso. Here's the only post so far in which you've talked about who you suspect.

So after ISO'ing minimum, I'll state that I think he's most likely scum or lazy ass town. His first part of the game doesn't help at all. Starbucks vote wasn't that good, neither was the snowstorm vote that was then swapped in his next post to salamence who he appears to have been on all game. After he voted on salamence his posts seem small and not too helpful and he doesn't do much till about post #323 where mina specifically posts and then again at #446 and #455 where I guess he started to feel pressured by the votes to do something. I don't like the majority of his responses to players though.

Just from the timing of his votes and for how long he's been on salamence if he were to flip scum sal would most likely be town and BVO should be looked at. [...]

Shadows seems decently scummy, he had a fair amount of posts that didn't really defend him all that well and some posts where he would just quote one of his previous posts as his answer. He also stated that he would most likely shoot MoI or hascow for basically revenge reasons which seems stupid and not that helpful. [...]

From this, I can see where your scum-reads on Minimum and Shadow come from. And sort of where your scum-read on BVoigt comes from, I guess. But you say nothing about suspecting SnowStorm, nor have you mentioned him in any other post. In fact, you implicitly defend SnowStorm above (because you say Minimum's vote for him "wasn't that good").

I'd ask "what has SnowStorm done since Post 636 that makes him look scummy?" but ... well, SnowStorm doesn't have

any posts

between Post 636 and Post 750. What are we missing here? Did you go back to reread SnowStorm at some point? What made you do that?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Greenknight. You continue to be incredibly disingenuous and obvious scum. Just so you know.

Your case is idiotic. Just so you know.

What do you think of Plum's case on BVoigt?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

We both agree with Plum's reasoning on greenknight, and feel this is a good place to put our Choose vote on.

CHOOSE: GREENKNIGHT

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

On the other hand this Shinori wagon disintegrating is depressing. Looking back at the current voters, Beyond Staeg's vote he never mentions HyperShinori again. He's also still on his original choose on Starbuck.

Droopy dog

Molla isn't much better. asdfkg Edd does the same thing am I the only person on this wagon actually reading the fucking posts of the person I'm voting for instead of getting comfy while having wall arguments with everyone else? No wonder this isn't happening. If someone were to put a gun to my head right now and make me choose I'd go for SnowStorm but I was wondering if maybe the multiple people who mentioned HyperShinori looks scummy could look at him and vote him for being scum? -.-

We think Shinori is looking

much

worse than he ("they" now, I guess) did before his last few posts (and we originally thought that Hyperion looked okay). (When asked when and why he's decided SnowStorm looks scummy he posts a wall of quotes, glosses them with a couple of slightly disingenuous sentences, and then votes for him? Really?)

But SnowStorm is still the better option, we think. Sorry.

Jal is totally scum. Seriously. No jokes. Go ISO him in Newbie 1237 and go look at this. In 1237 he was so town it hurt by like mid-day1. His overall tone and everything feels so off this time.

Plus also, this way you don't need to respond to his(?) questions or criticisms in Post 664? We have Jal as something of a town-read, ourselves.

You're going to have to spell out the huge difference between Jal's play so far in this game and in Newbie 1237, because I'm not seeing it. Also, since you've interacted with Jal (and even brought up Newbie 1237) before this, why is it only now you're so suspicious?

Plus his Snowstorm vote is crap. In the same post where he votes, he simply says that he is getting "slight scum vibes" from Snowstorm and he doesn't think his posts are "completely" genuine. This kind of ambiguous statments feel forced as hell and he looks like he is trying to justify bandwagoning Snow.

Didn't you spend ages in Post 664 and Post 701 attempting to explain why you thought it was fine to vote for somebody you didn't have a strong-scum read on? Or was it a different hydra-head who told us that "you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point"? Why did you not react to Jal's "crap" vote when it was cast? You've made plenty of posts since then.

Other than Snow recently voting for Jal

, what's changed to make you reconsider it?

What do you think about Snow, by the way? Is he still null? For that matter, did you ever explain

why

SnowStorm was null? You failed to answer the question in Post 470 ... did you ever come back to it?

Ok, I have finally skimmed through enough of this to make some sense out of what is happening.

Things I think I know:
-Dolorous is town. From the posts of hers I skimmed its clear she is active and definitely scum hunting which is good.

Dolorous Edd is male. (Didn't somebody else have this same confusion earlier?) I'm not sure how skimming can tell you somebody is "definitely scum hunting", but okay. You can definitely pick better people to sheep though.

-I think MoI and shadow are also town.

The selfvote from MoI

and the sarcasm from shadow

seem to show more of a town mindset

, scum generally don't play that loosely. (at least from my experience)

-Not liking benmage much

Didn't Benmage also self-Choose? Why is it a town-tell for MoI and not for anybody else?

and yes, I'm aware I'm joining two of the bigger wagons. It's not my fault they got caught before I joined.

What an odd thing to say. Jal only had two votes when you posted this. SnowStorm, Minimum, Salamance, and even Shinori were all bigger wagons at that point. If anything, you seem to be

avoiding

saying anything about the "bigger wagons".

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I'll let Pless

continue to aggraviate you

handle the other things in this post.

What do you think about Snow, by the way? Is he still null? For that matter, did you ever explain

why

SnowStorm was null? You failed to answer the question in Post 470 ... did you ever come back to it?

You want me to explain...

why

he's null?!?!

Yea. Okay.

Sure we do?

You and SnowStorm have a similar sign-in date to Soph's board, and have been in basically every game played there since (looking back at the records, SS's first game was 82.75, and yours was 83). Given the many games you've played together,

something

in his play must be striking you as off to warrant a null? Right? What is it? (Here's an altless one for the curious). How are SS's reactions even remotely similar to what he normally plays like?

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Didn't you spend ages in Post 664 and Post 701 attempting to explain why you thought it was fine to vote for somebody you didn't have a strong-scum read on? Or was it a different hydra-head who told us that "you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point"? Why did you not react to Jal's "crap" vote when it was cast? You've made plenty of posts since then.

Other than Snow recently voting for Jal

, what's changed to make you reconsider it?

Umm, are you planning to aggrivate me on purpose? But I'll play your little game.

Pless

asks

for why Arthur votes Hyper (nevermind like 2 days after).
Arthur answers him.
Unfortunately, Arthur is a very non-static person.
So while PlessZar is on the satellite delay, Arthur has already moved past that, and has found a better place to move his vote, esp considering he doesn't think THAT VOTE IS DOING MUCH THERE ANYMORE.

If you're going to jump on every little move and need ever little idea that forms in my head, then I'm sorry, but this is becoming both mentally exhausting and ditracting.

Kind of baffled by this reaction, to be honest . We're not trying to aggravate you for the sake of it at all -- we're asking you questions about your votes and your reads because, apparently unlike several other people, we're not convinced that you're town yet and want to get a better handle on what you're saying.

We're not trying to focus unduly on you or single you out in any way -- you're not even one of top scum reads (in fact, if forced to choose at gunpoint we'd probably guess you were town). But you have more posts than most people playing, so (inevitably, I think) we probably find more questions to ask you than we do, say, redFF. If we're really upsetting you for some reason, then we can only apologise: this isn't a deliberate strategy on our part, and it's not how we want to play the game. (Though, really, we're not quite sure why

being asked to explain your opinions of other players

in a game of mafia should prompt this sort of anguished response .)

For the record, I first asked you to explain your Hyperion vote the same day you cast it (I'm pretty sure I asked as soon as I'd read it, in fact, though Zar may have posted a couple of times before that). You might have taken days to answer, but that's hardly a result of

us

failing to keep up.

But more importantly, you seem to have (unintentionally?) completely missed the point of Post 807. I wasn't saying "why did you move your vote off Hyperion?", which is the question you seem to be answering. I was saying "if Jal's vote for SnowStorm looks so bad, why did you not comment on it at the time?".

... honestly, if it's only going to irritate you to answer this, feel free to not bother. Seems pretty obvious you're not getting Chosen or lynched today, and we have better suspects to push and question before deadline. Happy enough to listen to Regfan and leave you alone for now (at least for the Day).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Anyways, of course I'll answer your question If I go off on anyone/anything (again), just know that it was was prob 99% because of something that happened IRL or something, so nothing personal or game-related at all.

Hey! I want an answer to my question too!

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Feeling a bit under the weather, so don't expect me around. This is a full Zar post.

I like what you're doing here Reg. You went and placed high expectations on me. (Must have reads on everyone and know the context of the game,) and of course being that I had just replaced in there's no chance I would meet either of those so you get an easy way to call me scum. I'm sure their is a name for this logicall fallacy you are promoting but I can't think of it now.

In saying I had two few reads you conveniently missed the part where I said I would be giving more later. In fact I'm find adding Regfan to my scumlist. His attack on me is very terrible and quite frankly a bit opportunistic.

My biggest problem with DCL's 881 is not his hyperbolic reaction

per se

, but the way that Regfan's comments on DCL were chainsawed to use against him. Feels manipulative.

@ the Stark-Girl:

We have a fairly strong read on both ScumStorm & MiniScum (I've been wanting to use that name for a bit xD), the former being in the OMG-SO-SCUM tier for both of us, while the latter I have a weaker confidence about (mostly because Mina's annoyance reads as legit to me, and I don't feel confident about hypo-MinaScum going about poking MoI as much; my opinion on CES' remains unchanged, though). Anyway, your comment "still can't get to town on SnowStorm" in 710, seems to imply there's something about him making you hesitant about considering him obvscum here. What is it?

~.Zar

[Plessiezarus]

I really picked the wrong day to take off from the game . Still need to properly catch-up, but since I've seen the claim...

UNVOTE: SnowStorm

Will probably switch to bvoigt (almost certainly, in fact) but I need to talk it over with Zar first.

Re: Greenknight - I remember thinking he was scum during the beginning of day one in the game we played together, and he's kind of reminding me of that here. As I said before, I'm not a big fan of his posts, but I'm not reading him as scum either.

Link? I've only seen greenknight in Feast... we're pretty confident in that scum-read.

Someone saying obviously is indicative of smug wording?

Obviously.

(That was pretty smug, right? I was going for smug.)

I still want a partner claim, but there's no point in stalling this and give time for one of my town reads to get wagoned.

If you're SnowStorm's mason buddy, this is your time to claim. Otherwise your Frey friend eats rope.

This makes no sense though. Unless the game isn't multiball (and not even Edd is pretending to think it isn't), a mason claim this early means SnowStorm has definitely ensured his own death, whether he's town or scum. No need for a partner claim today at all.

@ the Stark-Girl:

We have a fairly strong read on both ScumStorm & MiniScum (I've been wanting to use that name for a bit xD), the former being in the OMG-SO-SCUM tier for both of us, while the latter I have a weaker confidence about (mostly because Mina's annoyance reads as legit to me, and I don't feel confident about hypo-MinaScum going about poking MoI as much; my opinion on CES' remains unchanged, though). Anyway, your comment "still can't get to town on SnowStorm" in 710, seems to imply there's something about him making you hesitant about considering him obvscum here. What is it?

~.Zar

Nothing I can put my finger on and if his claim is a real claim then hmm... There are several reasons why I could tell you why he's scum, but there are little flashes of the SnowStorm Post 484 that I know who gets intimidated and tends not to contribute much at times and becomes easy lynch bait. He hasn't given me any good reason to think he's town, but I also get caught up on calling him scum, and it could just be as simple as him seeming genuinely baffled that people think he's scum. By logic he's scum, but it just feels too easy somehow.

I know that it's past this question, but what do you think about his mason claim?

First instinct is to doubt it, but ... meh. Might be enough to explain his slightly off behaviour, I guess (town-mason SnowStorm would want to avoid giving away his connections to a partner for the same reasons scum SnowStorm would).

Anyway, more to follow later.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

*And I think the Choose has to be locked in before the lynch, or am I wrong? If a lynch happens before a choice, does it automatically go to the highest choice wagon?

The "why is everyone else so dense?" attitude you and Alek have decided to affect in this game would be more convincing (though hardly less irritating) if you actually bothered to read the thread.

A simple majority will lock in an assassin, however if there is no majority then the person with the most votes shall be chosen. Should two or more people have the same number of votes

then they will all die and become assassins...no wait that'd be terrible

then an assassin will be randomly determined.

Somebody will be Chosen when the day ends, majority or no majority.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I
You and SnowStorm have a similar sign-in date to Soph's board, and have been in basically every game played there since (looking back at the records, SS's first game was 82.75, and yours was 83). Given the many games you've played together,

something

in his play must be striking you as off to warrant a null? Right? What is it? (Here's an altless one for the curious). How are SS's reactions even remotely similar to what he normally plays like?

~Zar.

Ok, Zar, how are my reactions in this game different from the others and how does that make me scum? What scum tells have you on me?

My first game was your first game also and we've played some games together since then, but I've played more games with Arthur than with you, who modded most of them. What makes you think your read on me is more accurate than Arthur's?

And don't compare this game to games like the one you just linked to. It's completely incomparable.

Stuff like this post. Mostly. (For the record, my first game was 82.5, not 82.75).

Ever since Game 86 you seem to have made an effort into improving your game, which I'm not seeing here. As Tammy pointed out, most of the time you are playing, even when you do not have a suspect, you're in the discussion asking questions and being engaged in the discernment of alignment of players by expressing opinions or sharing thoughts.

Modding a game is evidently very different from playing one, which gives me a different perspective from the unspoiled one I get as a regular player. As a mod, already knowing your aligment, I get to see how you go about approaching the game and engaging the other players.

The way you seem to be pressing the few cases you made seems uncommitted and un-explanatory, coming from you. You aren't going over posts or being proactive. Except for calling Tammy town in 560 you weren't even invested the least in identifying players that you thought were town until called out for it. This is behavior I find disparing from somebody who's played more than 20 games (if my count is right).

I do not think you could be overwhelmed by the volume of posts in this thread. You've participated in large Westerosi games that require much more attention than this one, yet you strike me as trying to ride the wave here.

Now that you've claimed Mason, do you not accept you might have been acting differently from the way you usually do?

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

This is part of a much longer proper Hydra post Plessiez and I have been working on, but

Pless is a terrible flake and Zar had to keep pestering him to do it

been fairly busy.

Obviously the mason-claim means SnowStorm is off the table today. We're not entirely convinced by it though. Think our earlier reasons for suspecting him are still pretty compelling, and they're only partly explained by the idea he was acting differently because of his Mason role. Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.

Ignoring SnowStorm for now. We'll get back to you with our cases and our vote.

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Gah. Been pretty terrible at keeping up with this. Kind of bad timing for both me and Zar over the last few days; I do expect this to improve though.

I've given up trying to fully catch-up to the weekday play. Makes me want to get my own hydra slave to do the work for me and make notes.

Sadly (as Zar can confirm), this doesn't work quite so well in practice as it does in theory ...

(I've also more or less given up on fully catching up at this point; I've skimmed the last few pages and will go back to read properly later.)

@Plessiezarus:

Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.

Okay, I'm relatively new to closed or theme games here. I've read up safenames on the wiki, but I wasn't aware of mods giving out safe

role claims

. Is this common?

I might have been understanding that wrong . I was under the impression that in previous Eddard Stark modded games, scum were handed (on request) safe fake claims, not just safe fake names. Should go back and recheck this, I guess (or somebody with actual experience can correct me).

Claim: I am snow's mason partner, he can confirm

Oh, bloody hell.

UNCHOOSE

For fucks sake, what the fuck is it up with us targetting masons, unless anyone who is about to get lynched claims mason (or this is some grand master plan by Snow and greenknight)

I'm certainly inclined to view the fact that two (out of four) of our (that is mine and Zar's) top suspects have claimed Mason buddies as a point against the claims. I'd have felt a lot better if SnowStorm had at some point claimed his partner was somebody we had a town-read on, for instance. But this is irrelevant, for now. Obviously we're not lynching either claimed Mason.

greenknight has been defending a townread on SnowStorm from the beginning and was one of seven slots I had down as having never voiced a [playerslot] --> SnowStorm scumread of any kind.

UNCHOOSE: greenknight
CHOOSE: DCLXVI

We agree with the suspicion of DCLXVI - this was supposed to be part of the subject of the hydra post I kept telling Zar I'd help work on .

VOTE: bvoigt

CHOOSE: DCLXVI

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Okay, quickly salvaging what we were working on in the attempted hydra catch-up post, here's why we think DCLXVI is a much better choice than Feysal.

* We thought and still think that redFF looked pretty bad. He did nothing all game except tunnel on Starbuck. That would perhaps be excusable if all his posts were really early in the day, but even after he returned from V/LA he had nothing better to do except argue with her.

* DCL's posts on entry are bad, as is the fact he immediately suspects people like Tyene and Regfan who call him on them. Just don't understand why a town player would get caught up in what seems like (putting our diplomatic hats on) an obvious clash of playstyles between Tyene and MoI that has no bearing on anybody's alignment.

* His self-consciousness when voting for Jal (in Post 804) is also very odd: "yes, I'm aware I'm joining two of the bigger wagons. It's not my fault they got caught before I joined." Very defensive sounding, especially since Jal had all of two votes on at this point. In the meantime, his catch-up post conveniently avoids coming to a conclusion about any of the genuinely big wagons.

* His defensiveness continues beyond this point - he looks pretty bad with his exchanges with Regfan, we think, and Post 1053 especially seems more like annoyed scum ("you called me useless, but see, I'm not!") than any sort of town-reaction.

He'd definitely have our vote if there was more time left in the day. For reasons we've already discussed, bvoigt is also a suspect, but we think DCLXVI is a better bet for being scum. But since somebody is getting chosen whatever happens (and we're not

hugely

opposed to Feysal), choosing DCLXVI seems like a decent compromise.

Claim: I am snow's mason partner, he can confirm

Do you have a nameclaim? (Not that everybody who's familiar with the books hasn't guessed what it should be.)

DCL is RedFF, I think, and I have a town read on RedFF

Please explain your town read on redFF.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Current reads (almost current, anyway - Zar is catching up on recent developments a bit, so these might be Pless-heavy).

STRONG TOWN READS
Tammy, Pandora, Regfan, BBmolla, Plum+Nacho, Jal

WEAK TOWN READS
Stefan, Staeg, Edd, MoS, kortul, Starbuck, Benmage, Mockingjaye,

NULL
Albert B Rampage, MagnaOfIllusion, Amrun, Shadow1psc

WEAK SCUM READS
Shinori, Sapororerint, Feysal, Tierce,

STRONG SCUM READS
DCLXVI, bvoigt, Minimum

---

CLAIMED MASONS
SnowStorm, greenknight

We're kind of sceptical of the mason claim, to be honest. As I said earlier, the fact greenknight -- one of the other big day 1 suspects -- is SnowStorm's claimed partner seems to make a fake claim much more plausible. It's more likely Scum-SnowStorm claims Mason if greenknight is his (only?) partner than it is Scum-SnowStorm claims Mason if his partner is in a much stronger position, surely. But still, can leave these two for a bit and see if the problem solves itself.

Meh. Okay Regfan. I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote.

VOTE: stefanb

I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?

Not much to defend myself. Not much to claim either. (No PR and I am pretty sure from the crumps I used now and then you can last halway guess the direction of the character)

If you go back and reread Stefan, it's pretty clear what character he is softclaiming here. Which is a bit weird, since that character seems a rather unlikely member of the Lannister Alliance (in this book).

As above, we have (have had) a weakish town read on Stefan for a bit, but this softclaim seems odd. Still feel like bvoigt is a better lynch for today though.

Lynching StefanB is objectively the best play at this point. I think Bvoight's town, and I don't want another claim.

Stefan is "objectively" the best lynch because you "think" Bvoigt is town? I'm not sure words work this way...

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

we need to lock in our choose

No we don't?

To show which player you're choosing you may vote for them in the following format: '

Choose Nexus

' in red and bolded. You may Unchoose and Choose like a regular vote, but please put it in red - there's a lot of votes going around and we want to be able to do accurate vote and choose counts.

A simple majority will lock in an assassin, however

if there is no majority then the person with the most votes shall be chosen

.

As long as DCLXVI has more votes to be Chosen than anybody else when the day ends, he will be Chosen.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I'm not posting for the rest of the day (game-time) for the benefit of my health.

But I had more questions! Well, one more question, really ...

This is your latest lot of reads.

Re-arranging reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN:

SnowStorm, greenknight, Starbuck, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, Shadow1psc, kortul

NULL:

Minimum, Salamence20, Shinori, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

LEANING SCUM:

Mastermind of Sin

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

There are only 26 names on it. Do you really have

no

opinion on us anymore? We're not even null? Since my ego was piqued (I'm not

dull

, am I?) I went back to look at your previous reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN (S->W):

SnowStorm, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, Starbuck, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun

NULL:

Minimum, kortul

LEANING SCUM (S->W):

greenknight, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, Salamence20, Shinori

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

No mention of our slot .

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Lyanna Stark, Tyene Sand, Regfan, Benmage, Pandora, BBmolla

LEANING TOWN:

Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

(Alek - scum)

, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Starbuck, SnowStorm, StefanB

NULL:

Minimum

(Alek - town)

, kortul, Plum's Yo Mamma, Shadow1psc

(Alek - slight scum)

, Amrun, greenknight, Bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin

LEANING SCUM:

Shinori

(Alek - leaning town)

, Salamence20

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal

And still no mention .

Why do you not want to give a read on us? Have you just been copying and pasting your reads or something and not noticed?

(If the purpose was to hurt our feelings, mission accomplished :p).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I'm not seeing the evidence for him soft claiming Tyrion.

I posted the crumbs directly. Tyrion is short (a dwarf). Cersei thinks Tyrion is fated to kill her or ruin her queenship or something (can't recall details).

I also thought Stefan was (rather obviously) breadcrumbing Tyrion (hence my earlier comment about it being a strange role to claim). Zar told me it could be High Septon instead, though, so credit to him, I guess.

In

A Clash of Kings

, he made Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish townies (where town were the Starks), and Tyrion Lannister Mafia. (He also made Melisandre a fakeclaim.) But more likely,

he fucking gives scum fakeclaims.

EVERY SINGLE GAME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

So Stefan's softclaim is null at absolute best.

I really don't like most of the votes for Stefan. Because, yeah, this. If anything, nameclaiming a character who sounds evil is a town-tell, given past games.

Even without that, though, I still think Stefan sounds (and has sounded) town.

I'm Roose Bolton, Odd Night Vigilante.

Meh.

UNVOTE

. This is yet another claim I don't really believe, but ...

My gut feeling is that bvoigt is lying about his claim, but it's poor play to risk it on D1.

... right.

Ugh, I'm tempted to vote Sapo, but not willing to force yet another claim.

I would much prefer to vote for Sap than for Stefan, at this point. It's not so much the risk of another claim that stops me, but the lack of time.

Why would you bother to confirm a Mason claim given that it would be wasting the Role-block element of your role?

Have I misunderstood how the Torturer role works? Isn't "mason" a passive ability? How could Shadow possibly confirm it?

--

Talking things over with Zar in the QT now. Will have a vote soon (if needed).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Pless, your interactions with me today have kind of bugged me. It seems like you keep listing us as a top scum read, but then interacting with me as though you don't actually suspect me.

Your last few posts have been very sensible and you've said things I wanted to say before I did? That doesn't mean we don't suspect you. (Do I really have to start any sentence in which I agree with you with "Even though I think Minimum is probably scum ..."? That's tedious.)

(Never mind that you went from being mixed on our slot, to saying you found us scummy

because

"Mina didn't do anything to assuage our suspicions of that slot, to

then defending my reaction

, to then calling us a strong scumread anyway. It seems like it's come completely out of nowhere.)

Um. No? This is a pretty obviously wrong interpretation of how we've interacted this game.

We didn't suspect your slot "because" of Mina's posts. We suspected you for a while. I said that I'd read most of your slot's posts as CES so far, and that our impression might change after some later more-obviously-Mina posts. It didn't. But those Mina posts weren't

why

we suspected you. At best, they were a slight contributing factor. But it was more that Mina's posts failed to change our mind than anything else.

We also didn't "defend your reaction". We certainly didn't defend any reaction you'd had before our Post 601. After that post, you had a few more "typically town-Mina" sounding posts (I'm thinking of 641 and 643 in particular). But while noting this, we pointed out they didn't sound that convincing: "Mina's reaction to this vote is more the sort of thing we were expecting to see from a town-Mina. Would have probably been more convinced by a non-edited version of Post 641 though (assuming such a non-edited version actually existed, of course)". If you took that as a defense, sorry to disappoint you?

We stopped talking much about you when your wagon collapsed

because you were no longer around to interact with

. But just as asking Edd a lot of questions doesn't mean we think he's scum (and we don't), ignoring you doesn't mean we think you're town (and we don't). We didn't stop suspecting you -- see our (Zar's) 905, for example.

I'm Roose Bolton, Odd Night Vigilante. Flavor says I'm the killer of Robb Stark and Warden of the North, but I still have a lot of things I need to accomplish. I'm looking for immediate glory for House Bolton. The ability name is I'm gonna leech your face.

Hi. This is a fake-claim. Please don't derp it up and believe him. Trust me.

Weren't you not going to be here? Please respond to my question.

Yeah, I'm not very convinced by that claim either... How often are there Odd/Even Night Vigs here?

It's pretty standard, according to the wiki? (I mean, it's certainly standard enough to be used in normal games.)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

So I kind of still want to lynch bvoigt, but if Shadow uses his role on him tonight, he'll know if the claim is true and he'll also block him. That could save us from lynching an innocent bvoigt or from an evil role use. I don't know who else I'd lynch though. Maybe Shinori or Feysal.

I don't understand why you (or MoI, for that matter) thinks this is the best way to go. Vig is already a provable role. We'll likely know if bvoigt is lying or not tomorrow, if he uses his kill. If Shadow blocks him, then we'll only know that Shadow

claims that

bvoigt is a Vig. And if bvoigt is a (town-aligned) Vig, we'll have missed out on a chance to shoot scum.

I really don't want to test one claim I doubt by having to rely on the word of a second player whose claim I'm also not inclined to believe.

Have you commented on Shadow's claim yet? Oh, right, no. Have you commented on

anything

since your alleged Mason partner claimed? Any thoughts on the people who were voting for him? Why has the fact you've (apparently) stopped hiding your role made you

even less talkative or helpful

?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Um so a Vig is absolutely proveable if bvoigt claims a kill uncontested?

No? I don't remember using the word "absolutely". Do you thinking "claiming a kill uncontested" is the only way bvoigt can demonstrate he is a vig? Do you think Shadow claiming to have tortured bvoigt tomorrow and discovered that he is a vig will "absolutely prove" that this is true?

1. How does bvoigt claiming a successful kill assure that he's a Vig as opposed to another role (such as SK or member of a Mafia group) that has killing capacity.

Obviously it doesn't. (But if there are more than the expected number of kills, it certainly suggests it.) But for that matter, how does bvoigt being a Vig ensure he's pro-town? (I mean, Storm had a

scum-aligned day vig

-- merely being a vig isn't proof of alignment.)

2. Say that tomorrow bvoigt claims to have shot player Y and player Y is not dead. What information are we sporting from that?

Quite a lot, obviously?

3. Do you think bvoigt and Shadow are scum together?

I certainly don't think it's impossible. (And of course, they don't even have to be scum

together

for Shadow to potentially lie about the role.)

Do you think a plan that relies on Shadow being town-aligned, not role-blocked and surviving the night is a sure-fire approach?

4. We are apparently missing out on our chance to lynch scum today. Why is confirming (potentially) bvoigts' role more damaging than that?

Deliberately not lynching today is also a bad idea. (But I don't actually understand why you've asked this question - I have not compared the two ideas.)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

The point of lynching is to narrow the suspect pool, get a flip, and use a shot to get scum.

Even though I still think Tyene is quite likely to be scum

I agree with Tyene about this. Just as important as what you've listed is the chance to analyze the wagons afterwards. The unblockable vig-kill (assuming DCLXVI is even town) is not an alternative to a proper lynch.

Right now there is no chance that Stefan is scum.

"No chance"? Seriously? I mean, yes, I think he's probably town, but

no chance

?

If he is not lynched today, I'm willing to bet he will not be lynched for the rest of the game.

I think a lot of people are voting for Stefan for dubious, weak reasons (like "I don't want another claim") but reading 1336 hardly makes me think Regfan, for one, is going to drop this tomorrow. What has Stefan done

that he hadn't already done

that will prevent him from being lynched "for the rest of the game"?

We're already getting at least two flips: DC's and his vig target.

DCLXVI's vig-target won't tell us much except for who DCL suspected. And he'll be dead, as you note. So it won't tell us much of anything.

On the other hand, some people claim to suspect Stefan and some claim to think he is definitely town. If nothing else, lynching Stefan will tell us which of them are right.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Talking things over with Zar in the QT now. Will have a vote soon (if needed).

How 'soon' is five hours later, Pless?

Zar keeps making sad faces at me when I argue that we have to lynch Stefan.

(Five hours later in a game that has taken over two weeks seems pretty soon to me, though .)

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

So you're going to drive this down to the last ten minutes and make me have a conniption when my connection inevitably fails and I can't see if there was actually a lynch, right, Pless?

Well, if you make it sound so tempting ...

(Probably not though? I'm not here that long. But I do want to make sure Zar is fine with the vote before I cast it - his town-read on Stefan is stronger than mine.)

Lynching him today when everyone thinks he's town is pointless.

You think he's town. I think he's town (and Zar apparently

really

thinks he's town ). But not everybody thinks he's town. That simply isn't true.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I really don't want to hammer Stefan, the lynch seems very much a town mislynch.

but Pless is forcing me to

. I would rather have bvoigt hang, but there seems to be no time to swing that way now.

VOTE: StefanB

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Bvoigt is scum. Investigation returned

no active role

.

Weird. Didn't bvoigt claim vig after you'd already claimed your role? Seems a pretty reckless move on his part if so. Obviously happy to vote for him though (won't yet -- still rereading and trying to analyse the Stefan and DCLXVI wagons from yesterday).

What did I freaking say

Couldn't hear you over your repeated claims that DCLXVI was town, sorry .

Hoooold on

let's not quicklynch

. I like this lynch, but

we have the jail vote to deal with as well so we want everyone to check in and state they have sent a vote

--and there's no need to quicklynch anyway.

Even though Tyene is probably scum

I agree with this. Going to go back and read over day 1 again.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

EBWOP: Yeah, bvoigt claimed Vig in 1461. But Shadow had already claimed Torturer in 1321. So a pretty reckless move, I'd have thought. Guess he felt had to claim something though - the wagon on him was pretty big at that point.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

I find it curious that, for all practical effects, we only had a kill. DCLXVI's 'faction', whatever that means, knew who he was going to kill, obviously. So: are they responsible for the death of the other mason, or do we have another killing group, or did they doublekill, or do we have successful protections--we're not going to get an answer now, but this is food for thought for later.

Right -- this is certainly worth coming back to after we've had some more flips. Definitely feels like something odd happened last night. Doublekill seems unlikely (why would a scum faction try to kill one Mason if they couldn't also kill the other?). Some sort of role intervening to prevent the 'missing' kill seems most likely.

I'm fine with BVO lynch, however if Bvo flips town we look at staeg and shadows because of weird stuff i got in my pm last night.

So, you have information that potentially clears Bvoigt and implicates Staeg and Shadow somehow and you're just fine lynching Bvoigt in case? If that's not what you mean, what do you mean?

No I think I actually have info that potentially pegs someone as scum along with BVO. It could implicate bvo as town though but

it's also something I don't fele at liberty to discuss because it could just be more beneficial to scum than town

.

Why did you

bring it up at all

if you don't "feel at liberty" to discuss it?

This is still bothering me. Why the masons? They were not being particularly useful, leading visibly, etc. They were not typical N1 kills, even for a team that could afford to off the two of them at once, if that is the case.

I would guess any/all of the following:

1) bvoigt's scumteam was afraid to kill shadow for fear of protective roles, so they decided to off the masons while they had the chance

2) bvoigt's scumteam tried to kill shadow and failed, and a different scumteam killed the masons because they didn't care if shadow targeted bvoigt.

Either of those easily explain the mason deaths, although there's probably more to it that we don't know. I wouldn't say their deaths were *completely* unexpected, though. It does lead me to believe that the scumteam who actually killed the masons are not particularly aggressive players, for whatever that's worth, because they took the safe choice over trying to find a stronger PR.

Agree with this analysis, though (1) and (2) aren't the only options (if bvoigt is the SK, for instance, it's no mystery that Shadow wasn't killed -- nobody who wanted Shadow dead had the chance to kill him, since bvoigt was being role-blocked). Especially agree that the masons dying wasn't a total shock - the end of day 1 is full of people saying "well, the mason claims will be sorted out in the night". Seems a bit daft to then say "wow, I had no idea the masons would die tonight!". It's not a very adventurous choice, but it's hardly a complete surprise either.

(I thought the Mason claim was fake though ).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

(if bvoigt is the SK, for instance, it's no mystery that Shadow wasn't killed -- nobody who wanted Shadow dead had the chance to kill him, since bvoigt was being role-blocked

This can't be the case due to shadow's result.

But ... in the game Minimum talked about earlier (where Mina was the mod and used the Torturer role), the role PM explicitly said it wouldn't detect factional abilities. Isn't the SK's kill a factional ability?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.

Regfan could be scum because of this. He's maintaining a town-read for an absolutely ridiculous reason.

On a related note: the hydra dissonance has to end, and if it doesn't we start lynching them. We have to eventually be able to hold these slots accountable for their reads.

Every Hydra should start working on consolidating their reads

just like us

. We'll be posting our thoughts on the Stefan wagon shortly.

Zdenek have you seen Regfan as scum before? To us, the way he voted StefanB looks quite natural coming from him as hypoTown. Plus, Regfan calling people town for reasons

God only knows he has

doesn't ping my ScumDar (this is Zar speaking).

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Thanks. I didn't bother to check, that was from memory.


This is still bothering me. Why the masons? They were not being particularly useful, leading visibly, etc. They were not typical N1 kills, even for a team that could afford to off the two of them at once, if that is the case.

This is another indication that there is scum among my giant pile of townreads, and it's likely to be among the strong players. I'm sorry, but you don't let the lot of players who are reading TOWN TOWN TOWN live just to kill two meek, sheepish masons whose PR worth is essentially null at that stage.

Mark my words--there is scum among the strong players in this game, and they are hiding in the numbers of townreads (probably to foster paranoia, to which I say whelp, too late, suffering from it since Yesterday).

I want to lynch clear scum today, which means bvoigt, but I am incredibly wary of the people I've been clearing left and right. I need to see what reads stand up once multiball is factored in and possibly work with that. Work for tomorrow.

Don't really dig this post. Tierce this looks like you're hunting for

something

you were expecting to happen. Also, why are you procrastinating on reading people until

after

lynching bvoigt? Why wouldn't discussing interactions be productive after DCL's flip?

~Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

In

A Clash of Kings

, he made Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish townies (where town were the Starks), and Tyrion Lannister Mafia. (He also made Melisandre a fakeclaim.) But more likely,

he fucking gives scum fakeclaims.

EVERY SINGLE GAME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

So Stefan's softclaim is null at absolute best.

Something I've been meaning to ask Minimum (and some of the other players from previous Eddard Stark games can pitch in too). Mina, you said that there was no way shadow could have faked the torture claim because you came up with the role, etc. Since you've played Eddard Stark games before, can you explain how Faraday handles the fakeclaims? Does he give them pre-made? Does he hand them upon request? Are the roles you can fake-claim pre-given to you?

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

If you have doubt on Stefan's alignment, then go ahead and lynch him for the "flip". But every instinct in me is screaming that he's town...and furthermore,

no one is arguing otherwise

. Lynching him today when everyone thinks he's town is pointless.

Been meaning to work on a longer analysis of the Stefan wagon (and the DCLXVI wagon, too) but that will take some time. However, I've already read enough to know (as I thought at the time I first read this) that the bolded is simply not true. Plenty of people voting for Stefan claimed to think that he was scum. (The idea that he was suddenly a shining beacon of towniness and was never going to be mislynched if left alive, well ... no? Does anybody really think this?)

By my count so far, only three (maybe four?) people voted for Stefan despite thinking he was probably town: greenknight, Jal and us (maybe Tyene? she and Lyanna both basically claimed no read).

On the other hand, six people -- Regfan, Saporerint, Kortul, bvoigt, Mockingjaye and Pandora -- claimed actual scum-reads. And a lot of the reasons people had for claiming these scum-reads were pretty bad (I'm thinking of bvoigt's and Mockingjaye's in particular). That's not something we can analyse?

A further four people --

DCLXVI

(the confirmed scum!), Staeg, MagnaofIllusion and BBmolla -- voted for Stefan without giving

any

reason for doing so that I've been able to see.

That's

not something to analyse?

I think both the Stefan wagon and the DCLXVI wagon give us plenty of material to look at, and I think we'd have far less to talk about today if we'd not lynched Stefan (nevermind the fact that we'd be spending large parts of the day arguing about the failure to lynch somebody several people claimed to have a strong scum-read on). Really don't get why you were so dead against lynching Stefan, anyway -- what exactly had he done to make you so convinced he was town? And so convinced that

everybody else

would think he was town today?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

First of a couple of big hydra posts (well, mostly Pless-written, as is probably obvious, but still). Going to look at the Stefan wagon in this post, and then the DCLXVI wagon. Then our updated reads, and some reaction to more recent posts (Sap's slip does seem like a scum-slip to us -- we don't really like the idea of jailing Shinori though).

STEFAN WAGON

NB. For ordering purposes, we're counting Lyanna as the fourth vote, which she was for most of the wagon, and not the 14th (which she became by removing vote for a short period at the end of the day.

(1) Who voted Stefan and why?

Spoiler:

Thought Stefan was likely scum

(1st vote) Regfan: had Stefan as a strong scum-read; repeatedly voiced suspicion of him before and after claim (basically all his last few posts before the day ended). The way this all develops seems very natural.
(3rd vote) Saporerint: 1264: "Stefan is so scummy" // 1410: "The contrast [between Starbuck and Stefan] is mainly that [Starbuck] was not scummy"
(5th vote) Kortul: 1421: "i don't really believe [Stefan's VT] claim now"
(7th vote) bvoigt: 1436: "Can you give an example of a Faraday game where an evil-seeming character was actually town? The only possible explanation I see here is that Stefan is scum and screwed up." [obviously this is stupid for all sorts of reasons. Other than this, bvoigt gave no thoughts on Stefan]
(9th vote) Mockingjaye: 1464 "[if he's the High Sparrow] I don't think he could have a strictly pro-town agenda" [better breadcrumb spotting but still terrible reasoning for a Faraday-modded game]
(13th vote) Pandora(Quilford): 1136: "It's hard to pinpoint exactly what's wrong with his posting, but something's definitely awry. ... I think he's scum." [note: later suggests a null read -- 1456: "I guess I don't see a reason not to lynch Stefan but it seems like people are just being randomly run up until we hit VT's to lynch." // explicitly votes to secure a lynch in 1535. But the scum read was there, and I don't see where it went.]

Claimed a null read on Stefan

(2nd vote) Tyene Sand: 1358: "I don't even have a decent read on him one way or another" // 1367: "I think StefanB has a few townish things, but ... I'm not seeing anything that is particularly making me defend him" // (various later posts)
(4th vote) Lyanna Stark: 1377: " I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote." // (later unvoted to allow for for discussion // re-voted in 1547

Said that Stefan was probably town but voted to get a lynch

(11th vote) greenknight: 1392: "Not seeing the case against stefan his claim post reads pretty genuine" // votes in Post 1502: "I guess we're stuck with this"
(14th vote) Jal: 1538: "I think Stef is town" but voted to get a lynch
(15th vote) Plessiezarus: duh

No given opinion on Stefan

(6th vote): DCLXVI: voted for Stefan in 1427
(8th vote): Staeg: in 1398 argues (slightly) against Stefan being the "objectively best lynch". Only votes for him after bvoigt claims. Had suggested some suspicion of Stefan (much) earlier in the day though, but by 1287 had apparently stopped suspecting him. Maybe this should be in the town-reads pile?
(10th vote): MagnaofIllusion: votes for Stefan after Bvoigt's claim in 1468 - no other opinion on Stefan given
(12th vote): BBmolla: votes for Stefan in 1534: no reason given and no prior opinion about him

Summary

6 people voted for Stefan because of some sort of scum read:
=> Regfan (1), Sap (3), Kortul (5), bvoigt (7), Mockingjaye (9) and Pandora (13)

2 people voted for Stefan while claiming a null read:
=> Tyene Sand (2) and Lyanna (4, 14 after unvoting)

3 people voted for Stefan despite suggesting they thought he was town:
=>

greenknight

(11), Jal (14) and Plessiezarus (15)

4 people voted for Stefan and gave no read or opinion on him at all:
=>

DCLXVI

(6), Staeg (I think?) (8), MagnaofIllusion (10) and BBmolla (12)

We know now that greenknight was town and that DCLXVI and (it's very likely) bvoigt were scum.

A lot of the people claiming a scum-read on Stefan gave some pretty feeble reasons. In particular,

bvoigt

and

mockingjaye

stand out here.

We'd also like

Pandora

to clarify/explain their apparent change of read on Stefan between 1136 and 1535

First they claim a scum-read on Stefan and don't vote for him. Then they claim a null-read and do vote for him? Why?

We also didn't and don't really see why

Saporerint

was so convinced that Stefan was scummy. Still don't like his insistence that Stefan was "objectively" the best lynch.

Not explaining his votes seems, sadly, to be

BBmolla

's standard approach to the game. Would like to know what

Staeg

was thinking though --

Staeg, did you suspect Stefan when you voted for him, or did you not?

People who make sense as scum on this wagon: Saporerint, kortul, bvoigt, mockingjaye, MoI

Not sure what to think about: Pandora, BBmolla, Jal, Staeg

(2) What other wagons were these people on?

Spoiler:

Almost everyone who voted for Stefan also Chose DCLXVI. Analysis of this wagon will follow -- for now we want to look at people who didn't. There were only five people who didn't (and one of them is dead already):

- Saporerint
- Mockingjay
-

Greenknight

- BBMolla
- Jal

Interestingly enough though, these are actually some of the people we're most suspicious of on the Stefan wagon.

What did these people say about DCL, and how did they choose instead?

Sap: claimed a town-read on redFF in 1226. However, the other head claimed to think DCLXVI looked bad (in 1227). Ultimately listed DCL as scum in 1264. Will talk about this more when we look at the DCL wagon.

Mockingjaye: claimed not to have got a read on DCLXVI yet ("still reviewing") in 1274. Claimed a town read in 1464 ("DCL has been quite sincere in his latest posts").

BBMolla: was "fine with" Choosing DCLXVI in 1307 but unchose in 1339. Seems par for the course with BBmolla -- see our analysis of the DCLXVI wagon, I guess.

Jal: claimed in 1395 that redFF's actions up to and including replacement "just struck me as town.". Seemed fairly sympathetic to DCL's plight - "Unfortunately, you're the Plain Jayne non-PR slot people were hoping for." // (after DCL claimed to be frustated by this) "I get it. I've been there.". Don't think Jal would interact on the thread this way with a scum-partner. Still like our town-read on Jal.

Summary

We were hoping to find people who claimed a scum read on DCLXVI but didn't actually choose him. Those are the people most likely to be his partners, we think.

Saporerint

fits this profile best. (

BBmolla

did choose then unchoose, but this seems to fit a lot better with the "town BBmolla is a bit of a sheep" meta-read we have than it does with anything scummy.)

(3) Who (seriously) voted for Stefan at some point during day 1 but wasn't on the wagon at the end?

Spoiler:

Edd - after repeatedly listing Stefan as a town read (see ), joined Tyene in sheeping Regfan and votes Stefan in 1365. I ... don't understand why he did this? He had scum-reads, and the Stefan wagon was hardly the only place to vote at this point. Of course, in the very next post he seemed to remember he had Stefan as a town-read and bvoigt as a scum-read, so moved his vote back there.

This seems like more 'Edd is weird' evidence, not an attempt by scum to encourage a mislynch while avoiding blame for it.

MoS - voted for Stefan for soft-claiming Tyrion (in 1426). Don't understand this at all - MoS has played in other Eddard Stark games. How would this make sense from scum? Minimum challenged this at the time. MoS unvoted ... then jumped back on again later... and then unvoted again (listening to Minimum's urging for a no lynch).

Really don't like the initial vote (and I disagree profoundly with the wisdom of a deliberate day 1 no-lynch), but

this also doesn't look like scum trying to urge the wagon on without being involved

.

Plum's Yo Mamma - claimed that "Stefan reads scummy" way back in 458 and seemed hostile in 1384. Think that makes them the

only

person to ever suspect Stefan and not end the day with a vote on him. Later posts (like 1455) show no sign of suspecting Stefan, and Plum never really comments on the wagon. Then again, Plum was pushing the bvoigt wagon pretty hard, and was apparently never around after bvoigt claimed.

Rereading Plum has made me doubt my earlier town-read

but there's nothing concrete I can point to as being suspicious here.

Summary

Was hoping to see evidence of people urging the wagon on from outside. But it largely seems this just didn't happen -- instead, anybody who had anything bad to say about Stefan just voted for him. Indeed, even people who had nothing bad to say about Stefan were happy enough to do that .

Only person who stands out in a bad way here is

Plum

. They didn't have much bad to say about Stefan, but their failure to comment on the wagon at all looks weird. Then again, they weren't really around at all at the end of the day. Would have been nice to hear what they thought about deliberately ending the day without a lynch.

Overall Summary

Looking over the Stefan wagon has made me feel better about a few people -- though mostly people I already had as town-reads. There are also several people who stand out as possibly opportunstic scum jumping on an easy mislynch. The people I most suspect as a result of this analysis are those who gave bad reasons for joining the wagon.

These people were

Saporerint, kortul, bvoigt and mockingjaye

.

I'm also slightly suspicious of people who joined the wagon with no reasoning, or who seemed to encourage it without ever joining it.

These people are

MoI, BBmolla, Staeg and Plum

.

Analysis of the DCL Choose-wagon and updated lists of reads to follow.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Looking at the other wagon now:

DCLXVI WAGON

No More Choosing

DLCXVI (15) - Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, Regfan, Pandora, Feysal, Lyanna Stark, Kortul, Plums Yo Mamma, Staeg, Dolorous Edd, SnowStorm, Shadow1psc, bvoigt, DCLXVI, MagnaofIllusion

The speed at which DCL drew all those Choices makes me pretty sure some of the people Choosing him were scum-partners opting to bus him. Who could that be (other than bvoigt, perhaps)? Let's take a look.

Questions about each person on the wagon:

(1) Did they vote based on a scum-read or for some other reason?
(2) If the former, how had their views on redFF/DCLXVI evolved up to this point? Had they mentioned him at all?
(3) What were the competing wagons at the time?

Also: (4) Who, if anybody, voted to Choose DCLXVI but later unvoted?
(5) Who, if anybody, claimed to suspect DCLXVI but didn't Choose him at all?

People on the wagon

Spoiler:

Tyene

: voted to Choose DCL in 1222; this post has no explanation for the Choice but it clearly builds from earlier suspicion of the slot and some recent-ish interaction with DCLXVI when he replaced in. More justification in a subsequent post, 1278 (by which point the DCLXVI wagon had actually grown quite a bit).

Only Choice wagons with any support at the time of 1222 were Feysal's (10) and greenknight's (9, including Tyene herself). Feysal had been a weak scum-read of Tyene's up to this point, so wouldn't have been surprised if she went back to that wagon.

Fairly confident Tyene isn't on the same scum faction as DCLXVI

. Going into this reread I figured there was a chance she could have been bussing (DCLXVI had been picking up some votes), but on closer inspection this just doesn't make any sense. Still lingering suspicions, but if she's scum it's on a different faction, I think.

Regfan

: originally voted DCL (in 1206) since "there's no support" for his preferred wagon on Stefan or Minimum. Moved to Choose instead in 1244 after Tyene's Choice.

Regfan had has DCL as a scum-read based on his posts after replacing into the game (877). Originally voted for DCL because people were reluctant to vote Stefan; switched to Choosing DCL and voting for Stefan after Tyene and I had made the Choose wagon more viable than the lynch wagon.

By this point Feysal's wagon was the only one with any real support (9 votes) ... DCLXI had 3, kortul had 4 and greenknight (with 5) was clearly no longer an option.

Still have a decently strong town-read on Regfan and this hasn't done anything to change that. Bussing is more credible here than in Tyene's case, but I don't see any reason to suspect it (if anything, it's a bit unlikely, I'd say).

Regfan is also unlikely to be on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI

.

Pandora

: Chooses DCL in 1255 based on an earlier (and sustained) scum-read (see 1136, for instance).

Analysis of the competing wagons for Choosing are (unsurprisingly given the timing) much the same as for Refan. Feysal's was the only wagon with anything near 15 votes, and it hadn't much momentum left at this point. Only other rival wagon was kortul's (still with 4). While Pandora had kortul as a town-read (see 1136 again), they had Feysal as a strong-scum read. So, much as with Tyene, I'd have been unsurprised to see them Choose him again.

Bussing is more of a possibility here, of course (DCLXVI was on five votes to be Choosen already). Don't really understand why Feysal wasn't Chosen, actually --

after Choosing DCLXVI, did Pandora even

mention

Feysal again

?

Still, vague suspicions aside, we've had Pandora as a town read for a while now, and this hasn't changed that. Therefore we think

Pandora is unlikely to be on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI

(but a little more likely than Regfan, probably?).

Feysal

: Claims a "leaning scum" read on DCL in the post he Chose him (that's 1263). Would seem more honest to us to say he Chose DCLXVI to keep himself alive (he was still the only competing wagon, after all).

Had had nothing to say about DCLXVI before this post, and gave no opinion about redFF either.

Could easily see Feysal as being on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI

Lyanna

: First person Choosing DCL not to claim a scum read. (Choose in 1273; in 1350 confesses that she is "more confident in DCL flipping town" [than in Shadow doing the same, presumably?} but says she doesn't like any of the alternate wagons either.

Later posts (like 1375) suggest this was more or less a policy-Choose: Lyanna simply though Feysal would be more useful left alive if both were town. Don't think this is the approach a partner would take while bussing (why not try to get some credit for actually suspecting the partner you're voting for?) and (since we're fairly sure Tammy is town

anyway

) we think

it's very unlikely Lyanna is on the same scum faction as DCLXVI

.

kortul

: Says he is "leaning scum" on DCL when he Chooses him in 1276

No previous discussion of redFF or DCL. On the other hand, it wouldn't have been too hard for scum-kortul to justify moving to Feysal's wagon -- he had listed him as a town-read (see 1023) but only a weak one.

That said, the position of the vote on the wagon (and the lack of any competiting options beyond Feysal) make us think that

there's a decent chance of kortul belonging to the same scum-faction as DCLXVI

.

Plum/Nacho

: Chooses DCL in 1280. Don't really understand if this was based on a scum read or not. No further mention of DCL anywhere that I can see.

At this point the wagons on Feysal (on 9) and on DCLXVI (on 8) were neck and neck. Just no other credible options.

We had a strong town-read on Plum last week, but we're rapidly losing confidence in it.

Could easily see Plum as being on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI.

Staeg

: Chooses DCL in 1287. Seems like this was more of a policy Choose + a preference for Choosing DCLXVI over Feysal.

Moved off the kortul wagon to Choose DCL. Seems correct in assessing the kortul wagon as non-viable at that point.

Although the timing of the vote fits with a partner bussing, I think that (as I said about Lyanna) a scum in this position would manufacture reasons to suspect DCL beyond "he'll eventually be mislynched if he's town, and if not, he won't be of much use". Also 1473, his reaction to DCL's essentially posthumous "I was really town!" claim seems genuine. Our town-read on Staeg isn't all that strong, but he seems more likely to be scum on an non-Stannis faction, if at all.

It's possible Staeg is on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI, but I would lean towards thinking he isn't

.

Edd

: Chooses DCL in 1289] despite recently having listed DCL as "leaning town" (in 1242) and continuing to suggest that DCL was town (in 1323).

What's really off about this is that in 1242 he has Feysal as a strong scum read ... and Feysal was still the competing Choose wagon. Why move off somebody you think is scum and onto somebody you think is town when

these are the only competing wagons

?

This really doesn't seem to make any sense.

Edd, please explain this decision for us.

We still have a (weakish) town read on Edd, but stuff like this doesn't help at all. It just feels like he's not really paying attention to the game (despite all the posts) - even now he's not a hydra, his positions jump around like crazy from post to post.

Shadow

: Chooses in 1399 to "lock in our Choose". Is explicit in 1304 that his motive is to prevent a possible last-minute move to Feysal.

I don't think there was really any chance of this happening though.

Really, analysis in this case seems pointless before we see how bvoigt flips. If bvoigt is a member of the Stannis faction then Shadow very probably isn't. Just don't see Shadow claiming on a partner like this -- as others have said, it's suicidal.

If bvoigt is in a different faction, however, then I don't see anything here ruling Shadow out as a partner to DCLXVI.

bvoigt

: Again, no point analyzing this now. We're lynching him today anyway.

MoI

: Final Choose-vote for DCL (in 1468). No explanation given in this post, though he had previously said (in 1288) that he'd choose DCL over Feysal if he had to (but preferred Minimum to both).

Very hard to imagine DCLXVI not being Chosen at this point (even without any more votes, his was the biggest wagon left and there was no appetite to move elsewhere). Timing of the vote doesn't feel like bussing to me, though it's possible I guess? DCL and MoI had had little interaction before this - MoI had queried the inconsistency in DCL liking MoI for his self-choose but not liking Benmage's self-choose (in 816 and 1290), and that's about it. Think the dismissive "shouldn't have self-voted then" in response to DCL's post-Chosen town-claim (1477) reads genuine, but meh.

It's possible MoI is on the same scum-faction as DCLXVI. We would guess not though.

To summarise

:

Breaking down the wagon (with people very unlikely to be partnered with DCLXVI at the top, and people we can easily see as partners to DCLXVI at the bottom), we'd rank the people on it as:

Tyene
Regfan, Lyanna
Pandora
Staeg, MoI
-
kortul
Feysal, Plum

People above the line are those we'd be a least a bit shocked to see partnered with DCL; people below the line are those we'd not be shocked by at all.

No opinion yet on: Edd (

he's weird?

waiting for him to answer our question), Shadow (waiting for bvoigt's flip), bvoigt (lynching him anyway, not because of any connection with DCL)

People not on the wagon

We're interested in people who voted for DCLXVI or redFF at some point but didn't end up on the final wagon, or in people who claimed to suspect redFF but never Chose him. Would expect to find scum-partners in at least one of these groups.

Spoiler:

A. People who voted or Chose DCL before Tyene started the wagon, and didn't join it

Don't care about random votes, but only votes/Chooses that seem to be the result of some actual suspicion.

Benmage

: didn't "like how redff entered the game" in 187 (agreeing with Tyene's early suspicions) and Chose him in 192. Continued suspicion in later posts. Still talking about liking a DCL lynch or Choose in 1166. Started insisting DCL's VT claim made him town in 1312. That said, his urging DC to vig somebody other than Regfan, his insistence that DC was "bleeding town" and his lack of any real effort in moving the wagon all seem to point towards "wrongly confident town" and not to scum defending a partner in trouble.

Think the evidence points towards the conclusion that

Benmage is probably not in the same scum faction as DCL

. People who have played with Benmage can correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems the sort of attitude he had as town in past Eddard Stark-modded games.

B. People who were on the wagon but later jumped off

Minimum

: first chose redFF (following Benmage?) in 285. Continued suspicion of the slot for a while (see for instance 1194, and others). Choses DCL in 1238, just as the wagon gets underway, but unchooses in 1327, saying they "don't have high hopes that DC will flip scum right now". (DCL was at L-1 at this point).

None of this really seems to suggest a scum-connection between the two of them. Minimum was actively voicing suspicions of redFF/DCL all game, and voted and chose several times. The unvote comes at the worst possible time if they're partners -- it's too late to change the inevitable, and seemingly costs Minimum the credit for pushing the lynch.

Therefore

Minimum is probably not in the same scum faction as DCL

.

Stefan

: doesn't matter, he was town

BBmolla

: Chose DCL in 1307, unChose (for no particular reason, other than perhaps 'other people were doing it') in 1339. As far as I can tell, he never said anything about redFF or DCL before or after this. Could be a partner (trying to bus at first, then hoping that Minimum's unChoose was a sign of things to come?), I guess -- but I don't really see it. (My town-meta on BBmolla is that he tends to be lazy and sheep people more than he should -- does anybody disagree with this?) Anyway,

Molla is a possible but perhaps unlikely partner to DCL

.

C. People who claimed to suspect redFF/DCLXVI but never voted for him

Saporerint

: just after the wagon starts, suggests that DCL "is scummy mainly because of early reactivity and later relative lack of scumhunting" (see 1224) (one of the hydra-heads later claimed a town-read on redFF, but the other disagreed). Lists DC as scum in 1264. By 1298, both heads were agreeing that DC looked bad. No vote or Choose forthcoming though ...

Summary

:

People in groups A and C seem more suspicious than those in group B, all else being equal. The wagon picked up steam very quickly once it got going -- doesn't feel like scum would be happy about getting off, knowing what the ultimate flip would be.

Ranking these people in the same way as above (with very unlikely partners at the top and very possible partners at the bottom):

Minimum, Benmage
BBMolla
-
Saporerint

Summary of the Summaries

Having gone back and read through the wagon (and the people who perhaps could have been on the wagon, based on earlier suspicions or votes, but weren't) we think that Saporerint, kortul, Feysal and Plum all merit a closer look. All four would make a lot of sense as DCLXVI's partner, we think.

Merging the two earlier lists, I'd rank possible partners (from least likely to most) as

Tyene
Regfan, Lyanna
Pandora, Minimum, Benmage
Staeg, MoI, BBmolla
-
kortul
Feysal, Plum, Saporerint

Updated reads coming up in a bit.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Here's a current list of our reads:

STRONG TOWN READS
Tammy, Pandora, Regfan, BBmolla

WEAK TOWN READS
Jal, Edd, MoS, Benmage, Shadow1psc

NULL
Staeg, Magua, MagnaOfIllusion, Plum+Nacho, Starbuck, Mockingjaye, Zdenek,

WEAK SCUM READS
Tyene, Minimum, kortul

STRONG SCUM READS
bvoigt, Shinori, Sapororerint, Feysal

Our null pile is disappointingly large, at this stage. We had both Plum and Starbuck as town-reads on day 1, but rereading and vote analysis (and the fact Starbuck just hasn't been here for most of the game after having dissipated her suspicion) has pushed them both down. Zdenek replaced Amrun, who we had as a weak-scum read (largely because of reducing her posting to prod-dodging and continued lack of contribution) -- Zdenek has given a few posts that we need to look over to re-evaluate that slot. Nobody seems to want to stay in the hasdfgas/ABR/Magua slot for long, so that slot is still null for now. My experience with Magua is that we should be able to evaluate the slot as soon as he's caught up?

We're going to read over that pile of players in the null tier some more today (unless people insist on ending the day pointlessly early).

We still have some suspicions of Tyene and Minimum, but can't escape the fact that the events of day 1 make them both look better.

~ Zar.

[Plessiezarus]

Don't really like the rush to end the day early when there are still several people who've yet to really check in (and/or who might be replaced). Not really thrilled by how the discussion of today's jailing mechanic just dried up, either. Though the people saying it's best if everyone votes to jail a town-read (but that people shouldn't give away any more information about their vote than that) are probably right, so. Meh.

Going back over the day 2 events.

Based on the flavor of the night events

, DCLXVI killed one of the masons.

The bolded seems like a really weird choice of words. "Based on the flavor"? DCLXVI was

scum

, had an

unstoppable kill

and

nobody else died last night except the masons

. Why do you need to consider the

flavour

to work out that DCL killed one of the masons?

This really feels like the sort of thing somebody would say to avoid giving away inside knowledge they might have, or to avoid giving the impression they have such knowledge.

I wouldn't find it odd for bvoigt-scum to claim after Shadow1psc's Torturer claim, actually. 1) He could be distracted and missed Shadow1psc's claim (did he mention it before claiming? I should check but lazy etc.), in which case his faction probably doesn't have daytalk; 2) He thought he could get away with it, because deliberately blocking a vig on the night he can kill might not be in town's best interest. Odd-night vig can be a sleek claim for scum to make, because there are fewer 'missing' kills than with a full vig.

I don't

think

(1) works -- bvoigt moved his vote from Shadow after the claim and started listing Shadow as a town-read. But rereading him, he never seemed all that enthused about the idea Shadow was scum, despite the vote, so I guess it's just about possible (he never explicitly commented on the claim). (2) is probably right, I guess.

Starbuck might be some weird third party.

Lots of the reads seem really odd here, and you're being

far

too confident and definitive for this stage of the game, but this in particular seems to be crying out for an explanation. What led you to this conclusion?

For one if you think I'd buss in a multi-ball on D1 you're kidding yourself or don't know me at all

I think you're trying to create this imaginary scene in which you pushed so hard on DCL and lead his wagon with a fiery passion. You didn't. Reality is, he comes in, you basically attack him and say you don't like his replacement entrance. Then you just start pointing out things that any person would've already saw

This is silly. Regfan didn't single-handedly get DCLXVI lynched (Tyene for one deserves as much or more credit, I think), but he certainly did a lot to make it happen. He clearly wasn't just "pointing out things that any person" could have seen (except in the trivial sense that it was all information available in the thread). Lots of people saw what Regfan pointed out and didn't suspect DCL because of it.

You were one of these people.

A little humility might not go amiss.

We're not lynching until Maguatroll catches up on some of the reading and posts his thoughts as well as all the people who just got prodded (Feysal/Mocking/Starbuck) come in and post. I still think Shinori outting whatever information he has today rather than in the future is better.

Yes. I really don't understand the rush to end the day. I want to have a read on Magua. I want to sort out my null reads. I want to know who, if anybody, is being replaced and to get a read on them. How does ending the day quickly help the town?

I don't have much to say other than that Pless's strong scumreads list looks great, but the weak scumreads list just looks like reads they can't convince themselves to let go of.

Assuming you mean our weak scum-reads on Minimum and Tyene here, not the weak scum-read on kortul? (If you think we're wrong about kortul, then why -- has your own read changed since yesterday?)

Should everyone confirm that they've sent their jail vote before we finish this lynch?

Yes. And vice versa, too -- I don't understand the rush to end the day before everybody has had a chance to work out who they'll be voting for.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

(Kortul isn't scum)

From your Stefan wagon analysis Jal,

Kortul

, Staeg and Sapor look the worst.

Does this mean you've changed your mind about kortul being town? If not, could you explain in more detail why you think (or thought?) that?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Anyway, doubt it matters much since so many people have already sent in votes, but ... jailing Shinori sounds like a terrible plan. Would much prefer -- given that he's softclaimed to start with -- that he reveals any information he has now.

I don't want to waste a jail on a scum-read just because he tells me he got some information last night which he doesn't feel like sharing with the town yet. (Why would somebody soft-claim a power role then asked to be jailed, anyway? Shinori was doing nothing to make himself a likely night-kill before he did that...)

Requesting to be jailed for what it's worth. I'll keep the rest of my info to myself as I'm not to sure of it YET.

Ugh. No. I can't stand any of these posts:

(1) You suggest, out of the blue, that you might have some information that could, potentially, clear bvoigt.
(2) You refuse to reveal it until

after

bvoigt is lynched.
(3) You repeatedly and unsubtly soft-claim a power role.
(4) ... and then you ask to be jailed?

Why would you do this?

Shinori reads townish, and that "I have something important to talk about" seemed townish as well, but frankly if the alternative is for him to be the jail target, I'd just rather he outed his info now and the jailing be kept private.

Shinori has already suggested that whether to share the info wasn't such an obvious decision. I don't particularly feel like making that decision for him. The jailing thing isn't that good anyway.

Shinori hasn't done or said anything to make me think he's going to be better at making the decision than the town as a collective. The jailing thing

isn't

great, it's true, but the one obvious positive it does have is that, by not saying who we'll jail, we can force scum to second-guess themselves and perhaps let people live they'd rather kill (for fear of wasting a shot by targeting a player that is protected).

Announcing who we'll jail -- even if it was somebody I'd want to ensure was alive tomorrow (ie. "somebody not Shinori") throws that away. And for what? So that Shinori can wait a day before revealing or making up whatever information he claims to have? Ugh.

I don't mind a Shinori jail

Why are you still generating such massive hydra dissonance when you're a single head? How did you get from 1617 to here? One minute you're in love with Benmage's plan, then kortul suggests jailing Shinori and suddenly you're the game's biggest champion of

that

idea. Make your mind up, please.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

After rereading day 1 we're moving Starbuck back into our (weak) town pile. Still arguing with Zar over some of the other null reads.

We've sent our jailkeep vote in.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

(Posting a few proper hydra posts, so hopefully people won't get bored and end the day

just

yet...)

Zdenek's fake day-vig may have been silly (and it was), but at least it convinced us we didn't really believe in our scum-read on Tyene anymore. (At least, if somebody claimed to have day-vigged Sap or Shinori or somebody else I have a real scum-read on, I'm pretty sure my immediate internal reaction wouldn't have been an outraged "why the fuck would you do that?"). Tyene's been acting pretty pro-town today (thinking of the immediate Saporerint catch and the requests for people to unvote so that everyone can send in jail choices). Oh well.

Made some progress with the null pile, too, so let's update the lists:

STRONG TOWN READS
Lyanna, Pandora, Regfan, BBmolla

WEAK TOWN READS
Jal, Edd, MoS, Benmage, Shadow1psc, Tyene, Scumhunter, Zdenek,

NULL
Magua, MagnaOfIllusion, Plum+Nacho, Mockingjaye,

WEAK SCUM READS
Staeg, Minimum, kortul

STRONG SCUM READS
bvoigt, Shinori, Sapororerint, Feysal

Somebody asked why we'd gone back to having a town-read on

Starbuck

. Basically, it was a combination of realising Starbuck hasn't been lurking strategically (since she's been prodded and then replaced), and rereading her posts from the start of day 1 and remembering why we had a town-read on her in the first place. Really, the only reason we moved her down to null was the fact she didn't say or do anything at all for a week or so. Also inclined to view this post as a weak town-tell:

Why do you want Starbuck to nameclaim? Until she's in danger of being lynched, it's antitown. If she was at L-1, we'd want to hear her name and flavor, but until then, all it does is give more information to the scum.

And to the town. Why did she claim VT? Because she volunteered to be chosen. If she was getting chosen, why not nameclaim, and if not, why claim VT? The thing is, even if her name gives us nothing, her doing so (or in this case, not doing so) gives us info.

I think you want to know because you want your team to know who not to fakeclaim as

. That's what I'm getting from this.

Since MoS and MoI have clarified how fake-names work, this doesn't seem like something scum teams would need to do (Faraday hands out safe nameclaims to scum, so there's no need to risk fishing for them). Don't feel like Starbuck would have brought this up as scum (we've checked, and she didn't play in the earlier Eddard Stark games, unless we can't read the wiki pages at all).

Zdenek

's catch-up posts, tunneling on Tyene and general attitude since replacing in seem very natural. Some questions for him to come, but he's townish.

Staeg

is a scum read almost by PoE. We think he looks most suspicious of everyone in the big null pile. Would perhaps think differently if he posted more (and we both had a bit of an allergic reaction to the 'wow, Pless is so town!!" attitude in 1846, to be honest).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

(Another proper hydra post.)

Plum

Plum here. Plum has a new crazy schedule at college, and Nacho has done some posting. Hopefully this will be useful.

This post made me feel better about Plum, actually. Can actually see where they're coming from with their reads here, even with their suspicion of us. They're right that we didn't talk about Shadow as much as we should have (or thought we had) and that our take on the claims hasn't evolved very sensibly.

Can only really plead a mix of neglect and confusion on those two fronts.

We weren't giving the game enough attention during the second week of day 1, and ended up abandoning a couple of hydra posts we'd be working on to catch-up - as a result, I think our read on Shadow comes across as more static than it was. Putting Shadow in the null tier after the claim was meant to be a step or two down - we'd had him as town in our QT for quite a bit before then. Was actually a bit confused on this front until I realised we'd never said as much in the game .

Didn't really understand how the mechanics of Faraday handing out fake-claims worked until day 2. Obviously that changes how we approached both Shadow's claim and bvoigt's claim.

Pless' approaches to bvoigt's claim don't fit into a picture of consistency or thoughtfully evolving insights. I may be wrong. But.

Not sure you are wrong, really. Our opinion on the claims has jumped about a bit.

Partly that's because we didn't quite understand how Faraday gives out fake-claims (when we thought bvoigt's vig-claim was something given to him ready-made by the mods, we reacted to it differently than we would have if we thought it was just a spur of the moment thing), partly that's because we didn't really have time to think about things properly and objectively until night (and because we discussed the game at night, our opinions changed without that change evolving naturally in the game thread).

As you say, we suspected bvoigt for most of day 1. Claim didn't really change that - could have been a last minute attempt to win a day (which apparently is what it was), could have been a real vig role that was scum-aligned, he could have been the SK - didn't matter much to our read on him. Once he claimed it was clear there was no appetite to lynch him on day 1. We were more or less resigned to giving him an extra night (to see if he could kill scum or if he was killed himself) but, if he was still alive today, we would probably still have been pushing for his lynch. Zar was particularly reluctant to vote StefanB and had hopes up to almost the last minute of lynching BVoigt instead (he only gave up on this after Pless persauded him Stefan was the only alternative to not lynching at all).

Zar has had Faraday review his modded games before, and didn't think that BVoigt's Vig claim would be enough of a motive for him to give the slot another day if it were up to him.

Shadow - as I said, we actually had him as town (in the QT) before his claim. (We'd been arguing about it a bit - I think I had him as town and Zar had him as null, but I might be remembering things to make myself look better there ). Didn't like the claim at all (since we thought Faraday gave out claims pre-made, we didn't see why it being used before by Mina in a game Faraday had reviewed was a point in Shadow's favour). Role he claimed didn't really seem consistent, to me, with the hints he'd been dropping earlier (I had actually guessed he was an innocent child, earlier, after one of his more smug "oh, I'm not getting lynched today" posts ). Still think there's a small but non-trivial chance that Shadow is scum on a faction other than bvoigt's, which is why he's only a weak town read, but we (obviously) now believe the role claim is genuine.

I don't feel really good about this. But I am not comfortable with the fact that Pless doubted bvoigt after the claim, then argued significantly against testing the claim with Shadow's power by suggesting doubts on

Shadow

, on whom he and they did not have a scumread and on whose claim he and they did not comment, then argued Day 2 that there should have been less doubt on bvoigt's initial claim because of Shadow's power's bearing on that.

Hmm. I think you're missing the fact that our doubts about Shadow's claim weren't the only reason we had to oppose relying on Shadow to test bvoigt's claim. Seem like there were lots of ways bvoigt could be scum and Shadow town and yet this plan still be a bad idea.

Had Shadow been roleblocked or killed last night, relying on him to test bvoigt's claim would have been useless. Had bvoigt really been a vig, but been scum-aligned (something I'm pretty sure we suggested at the time, actually?), then Shadow testing him would have been, if anything, worse than useless.

But yeah, we did doubt Shadow, maybe more than is obvious on rereading our posts. Was pretty surprised when Shadow claimed his investigation result this morning, and that's made us feel a lot better about him.

Mostly I will say something closely related: he wallposted some impressive amounts dissecting people and wagons. Came out with a moderate amount of weak read-related information. I guess the way they admit to their 'disappointing' amount of null reads is candid and mildly Townish. But a lot of their stuff has been paragraphs for nullreads.

Don't think this is really accurate though (or suspicious). Our reads changed a fair amount after looking the wagons - yes, a lot of people were null afterwards, but this wasn't simply a case of our null reads not changing: we were moving former town-reads down into this pile as well (and moved at least one former scum read up). It also helped confirmed a lot of existing town-reads, which seems like a positive to me.

Certainly though, those posts do contain paragraphs about people who we ended up listing as null-reads (and some of them still are). But the analysis won't stop being applicable the instant we move into day 3. The hope is that, as the game progresses, we get more flips and form stronger opinions about people, the analysis in those posts will prove more directly useful in forming reads and working out who could be scum in which faction.

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

Some thoughts on Feysal:

I've received my prod and read about half of the new pages, though I still have more to go.

Feysal has been doing this all game to procrastinate on content. There is similar wording in other posts of his in Day one, and it appears in both of his D2 posts. The pre-emptive excuse to why analysis is lacking feels like a bid to gain time.

Take for example:

Okay, enough of this. I have caught up, but since we're lynching bvoigt anyway, there is little reason to post updated reads today, particularly town reads thanks to the jailkeep vote. Those can wait for the next phase, as can all the other matters of note that have come up today, by which I mean Shinori's claim and Saporerint's slip.

So Feysal here is avoiding commenting on his reads, because, well, we're lynching bvoigt anyway :sarcasm:. What does lynching BVoigt have to do with Feysal not providing analysis or reads?

I'll have to read more and look for partners, but I find the connection between Staeg and bvoigt plausible, and MoS and Starbuck are other good scum candidates.

Oh how cheeky. You know, this is one of those lines that Mafia love to drop on each other. Connecting people around without given reasoning. Buys you credit for a Mafia flip and leaves nothing behind for you to trip with. And yet you don't want to provide us with your reads...

I believe BBmolla to be town, and his information about Aegon Targaryen confirms this as multiscum. That would mean there is a factional scum kill missing. There are many possible explanations,

including bvoigt being designated killer and blocked

, the killer hitting a protected role, or both scum teams targeting the same mason. I would not find that last possibility so strange, since masons are confirmed town roles and therefore obvious targets. Yes, I was doubtful when SnowStorm claimed, but by the time greenknight confirmed his claim, I believed them. They were never going to be lynched.

Yet, you say this later in 1917

I'm fairly certain bvoigt will not flip Stannis aligned.

This is because they should have anticipated bvoigt would be targeted by Shadow, yet they did not kill Shadow to try and give bvoigt a fighting chance

. Remember that the assassination was unstoppable by any town abilities, so they could easily have gotten rid of Shadow with it. The fact they did not indicates they did not care what happened to bvoigt.

While I agree with the unlikelihood of Shadow and BVoigt being buddies given how the whole Shadow result on BVoigt came accross, and even have moved Shadow over to my town based on his morning result, I don't understand the bit of a contradiction you come yourself into between these two posts. Can you clarify?

~.Zar

[Plessiezarus]

Zdenek

One thing that really struck me as odd were the Feysal chooses early in the game. I don't think that Feysal comes across as particularly town, and if he were to flip scum I'd probably look into those choose votes pretty carefully.

Not sure how we're supposed to read this. Are you saying the Feysal chooses early in the game were odd

because

Feysal doesn't come across as particularly town? Or are you saying that the Feysal choices early in the game were odd even though, based on later reading, Feysal does not come across as particularly town? (Do you think it was a mistake to use the Choosing as a second lynch?)

MoI forgetting about bbmolla being in the game was weird, and his self-choose felt contrived.

What do you think about Starbuck and Benmage's self-choosing? If that wasn't equally contrived, why not?

I jumped off greenknight because he claimed masons. I didn't go back to Feysal because I was not convinced Feysal was scum. And I was the first on a wagon that result in the death of scum. What the hell are you criticizing here? Don't I have a right to start wagons too? Unless you're claiming that I jumped off a mason onto my scumbuddy and pushed that wagon until the end (which was a wagon I had been supportive of from the beginning due to redFF, I have no idea how you think it makes sense for me to be scum at this stage.

The point was that you had the opportunity to Vote for DC and there were votes on him, but instead you decided to push for him to be chosen, when there were no choose-votes on him.

In context, this doesn't really make sense though. Tyene had a (weak, on rereading, but still expressed) scum-read on bvoigt, and was voting for him. Bvoigt was a popular wagon (10 votes at the time, I think?). Why should she take a vote off bvoigt to vote for somebody with only a couple of votes at the time?

On the other hand, Tyene had been choosing greenknight, who had just claimed Mason. So she had every reason to choose somebody else. Choosing DCL instead of voting for him doesn't seem suspicious.

A few things as I read through again (currently through page 13):

Shinori/Hyperion is probably town

I think we also had a town-read on Hyperion early on (before he was replaced). However, I don't think that Shinori claiming to be hydra-ing later is any sort of alignment-tell, and I think Shinori's posts in general look bad. Surprised you (or anybody) is confident in calling him town. What are we missing?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

MagnaofIllusion

I see you indicting both myself and BB for voting without reason. Yet you are specifically ignoring the context of those votes. Both were made within 12 hours of deadline after bvoigt had claimed Vig.

"Indicting" seems pretty strong. We're pretty confident BBmolla is town, and we don't have any read on you at all yet. We're not pretending this is a huge thing (I mean, I suspect this is more a playstyle issue than anything else, ultimately).

But yes, we believe there is a difference between, on the one hand, explaining the votes you cast, and on the other hand, casting votes in silence and expecting other people to attribute your vote to whatever reasons they find most natural and least suspicious.

Are you suggesting that there is some mystery to why I (and BB) moved our vote other than to secure a lynch? You yourself voted for a Town read to make sure no-lynch didn’t happen. What is any different about these two votes than yours or Jal’s other than explanation (it’s deadline and he claimed VT) which frankly were obvious given the circumstances?

What's different is that both we and Jal talked about the Stefan wagon before voting. It's not simply that we explained our votes as we cast them, but that we were commenting and talking about the wagon as it grew. Obviously I understand voting for somebody simply to get a lynch. What I don't like (and the reason we placed people like you and molla into a different group than people like ourselves, Jal and greenknight) is the fact you didn't feel obliged to explain yourselves at any point.

Until you each voted, you and BBmolla had said

nothing

about Stefan. When you voted for him, you each said nothing about why you were doing so. Yes, there's an obvious reason for voting at this point, whatever your read on Stefan -- but why not comment on how likely you think it is Stefan is actually scum when you vote?

~ Pless