Welcome to Mafiascum. ~Zar.
A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!
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Plessiezarus Goon
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In post 29, Dolorous Edd wrote:
Umm, I don’t see this (the part about picking scum can be worse that 2 townies dying). Scum already have a nightkill. Giving them one extra vig shot cannot cause that much more mayhem, esp vs killing a scum off. Plus it would lower down the suspect pool if they’re a suspicious person.
In either case, I see killing off a suspicious person doing more good than harm. Choosing someone out of policy is pointless. Why no policy lynch the first day and have the suspicious person sent to kill Snow instead?
I beg to disagree? Giving a potential scum a strongman kill sounds like an extremely bad idea. You'd be basically giving them an unstoppable freebie for signing off plus their factional kill.
~Zar-
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In post 76, Starbuck wrote:In post 74, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 71, Starbuck wrote:I disagree that this should be used as a second scum lynch and if that makes me scum in everyone's eyes so be it.
So what do you think it should be used as?
And why are you choosing yourself?
I think it should be the hands of a VT. A townie who has nothing to lose, but would still follow the wishes of the majority.
If it ends up in scum hands, we won't know where it lands.
I didn't want to claim this early, but I'm choosing myself because I know that I am town and that I have nothing to lose.
BUT
WHY.
WHY
WHY ARE YOU ALREADY DOING THIS.
~Zar-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.
Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.
Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.
@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.
~Zar.-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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Had a chance to talk things over with Pless a bit, so this is a proper two-headed hydra post.
We both think Regfan (and, as he says, Edd) look pretty good at the moment. [Pless isn't sure he quite agrees with the description of Arthur as "batshit", but overly-aggressive in a slightly unfocused way? Sure.]
@Snow Storm- Out of interest, we'd like to know if you've read any of the previous Eddard Stark modded games on this site?
(SnowStorms's vote-and-run entrance is, partly depending on the answer to the above, a little suspicious, sure.)
Don't really see much merit in current votes against Starbuck (we can understand the frustration, just not suspicion). Don't see the merit in the Feysal votes either. In fact, some of the posts voting/choosing Feysal seem kind of contrived. (Well, "some of the posts" = "Salamence's post" really.)
We don't understand why people would choose themselves. Following some private discussion, we both now favour choosing somebody as essentially a second lynch. Can't see any real point in choosing people this early though.
Have an eye (or four) on Minimum (this is mostly/entirely CES posting at the moment, yes?) as well.
~ Zar-
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In post 123, Lyanna Stark wrote:My biggest scum read is on Minimum though. Think both Mina and CES were posting last night, with Mina being the one posting words and CES being the one just jumping votes.
Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?
In post 139, MagnaofIllusion wrote:@Plessie– Um is BBMolla playing this game? If so can you tell me who he is masquerading as?
Er. I am confused. Since he's on the player list and he's posted on the thread, I'm guessing that he is playing, yes?
In post 141, SnowStorm wrote:So, again, which is it?
Why haven't you answered my question yet?
~ Pless-
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In post 148, Lyanna Stark wrote:
Nope! That would be silly. I know that you don't presume that though and wouldn't have to ask, so I'm not quite sure the point of that particular questionIn post 144, Plessiezarus wrote:Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?
I was wondering why you have a scum read on Minimum? Obviously.
~ Pless-
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In post 208, MagnaofIllusion wrote:While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?
Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.
(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).
In post 159, SnowStorm wrote:No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.
Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?
~ Pless-
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In post 256, Dolorous Edd wrote:Umm, misrepmuch?
[...]
Your reasons on the other hand seem to make no sense. You want to give it to someone we suspect is town?! But who we will somehow magically determine to be VT?
I agree with you on how to use the choosing, but you are guilty of some misrepresentation of your own here. Starbuck is claiming VT and choosing themselves. There's no "magical determination" involved in that plan.
In post 258, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 255, Plessiezarus wrote:
In post 159, SnowStorm wrote:No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.
Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?
Did your question have any more motivation that just this?
Yep.
SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games. We're actually feeling a bit better about him now. (Zar thinks #194 looks like being a town-tell for SS, for instance.)
~ Pless-
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In post 285, Minimum wrote:Unchoose, choose: redff
P.S. Zar, is all your scum meta on me that one Westeros game?
My read on you is based on the games I've had some degree of interaction with you. The WoT game, the Westeros Mini and the TM White Flag. ~Zar.-
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In post 317, SnowStorm wrote:
I think one of the advantages of not knowing who I'm playing with is that my reads are unbiased. Reading other games they've played in would probably change that.
What are your reads, so far? ~Zar.-
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In post 274, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 271, Plessiezarus wrote:SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.
Why?
I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).
In post 301, Minimum wrote:In post 295, Lyanna Stark wrote:CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.
The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.
I got it. It wasannoying and unhelpfulvery droll.
In post 308, Jal wrote:@Dolorous Edd: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.
[...]
I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?
Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?
Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.
(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)
~ Pless-
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In post 354, Dolorous Edd wrote:Tbh, no, I wasn't really interested in the answer. But throwing out vague statments that are missing the the key component - thewhy- is rather tedious to deal with.
Okay, gotcha .
In post 354, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 344, Plessiezarus wrote:Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer?
I wasn't asking to test him.
I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.
1) Where did I say you were testing him? If you wanted to see what he was thinking, why did you not share your thoughts and explain why/if you disagreed?
2) Why is Benmage "very likely town"? Statements that are missing thewhyare so tedious to deal with, after all...
~ Pless-
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In post 368, Dolorous Edd wrote:VOTE: Pandora
I hated how he come right in and started defending Feynal...reeks of scumbuddies...
So I say we lynch one and send the other to the wall
Alek, can you explain What in the said Feysal defense makes you feel this way?
In post 368, Dolorous Edd wrote:
Snow and Refgan are town, obviously so, I know Snow it wayy to awkward as scum to be posting this muchand Refgan hates being scum and tends to over lurk alot, I know meta boo, w/e
Sorry, but no. SnowStorm's reaction to Tammy's comment reads nervous and unrelaxed. I also don't see how your concept of "posting this much" is an aligment tell coming from him (have you glanced at the activity overview?, SS is a currently a mid-tier poster). IMO, it would be quite hypocritical from us to say that SnowStorm's posting activity is suspicious. His posting content, on the other hand, leaves a lot to say.
Alek, out of sheer curiosity, have you read any other Regfan games in either site?
~ Zar.
~Quote tags fixedLast edited by Eddard Stark on Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.-
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In post 345, Regfan wrote:I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]
We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?
(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)
In post 368, Dolorous Edd wrote:I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar
I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...
(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)
In post 372, Lyanna Stark wrote:Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.
This was my gut reaction also.
In post 374, Tyene Sand wrote:Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).
Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.
It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?
~ Pless-
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Turns out being a hydra isn't a magical way of reducing the amount of work you need to put into a game after all. Who knew?
In post 387, Regfan wrote:I suggest reading through this it's the ISO of the only game at mafiascum that I've played with Hyperion and the play there to here is very very different.
Read this (well, skimmed some of it). It is different, yeah. But it was a newbie game and his first on this site. His recent games at Westeros would seem to be more relevant, to me. Certainly his posts so far seem closer to the Fringe game (as town) than to his posts before being replaced in the First Law game (when he was scum). Did you really think he said anything particularly constructive or helpfulon day 1in the Fringe game?. I still don't find him that suspicious.
In post 455, Minimum wrote:Completely disagree with Regfan saying thatsword_of_omenssaying "WE kill scum" is a town tell. His opening post and the reads he espoused in it were pretty bad, although I need more from him.
Yeah, I don't like sword either. Zar suggests the lack of engagement could be a town-tell, though (I guess he can expand on that himself later).
In post 455, Minimum wrote:LikedEdd's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is).
While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
In post 455, Minimum wrote:I don't rememberCowbeing this overconfident and prone to exaggeration when I've seen him play before, but the bravado has an obvious town motivation even if it's faked. More likely town than scum, but I'm not as certain of it as everyone else is
Um.Iseveryone else certain of this? Can't see him as anything but null at the moment.
In post 455, Minimum wrote:Have a weak town read onStefanBand a super-weak one onJalbased mostly on the tone of some of their posts.
I think I agree with both of these. (Haven't persuaded Zar yet.)
~ Pless-
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Oh, and also:
In post 455, Minimum wrote:Plumis totally null for me. It would shock me if there were only 0-1 scum on my wagon, so I could see Plum being competent scum, I guess.
In post 458, Plums Yo Mamma wrote:[a long post]
In post 461, Minimum wrote:Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.
Was it meant to be obvious what your read on Plum has changed to? Because it wasn't to me .
~ Pless-
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In post 462, Plessiezarus wrote:Yeah, I don't like sword either. Zar suggests the lack of engagement could be a town-tell, though (I guess he can expand on that himself later).
Well, mostly my own experience in the Metroid Game, where I replaced SoO as House Lannister. Sword was highly disengaged in that game and had what, 4 posts by 12~13 pages?
In post 458, Plums Yo Mamma wrote:
Hyperion is indubitably scummy and our vote is going there. VOTE: Hyperion I simply cannot put it in plainer words but that Hyperion is scum. If you need to ask I will line-by-line his contributions without resorting to ALL CAPS RAGE.
But Hyperion is very very scummy. And if heistotal lynchbait and someone has very useful meta on him, please post or point out where it's been mentioned kthx.
Hyperion's meta in Westeros is very similar to the behavior he's sported for the moment. He is a player that traditionally gets mislynched and definitely not somebody I'd choose to give a gun to because of previous anti-town game experiences. His latest Westeros game just finihsed this monday, his alt was "Olivia Dunham" (which has now been recycled to Mr. Immortal (MS won't let me link to the shortened address, so remove the space there: http://tiny url.com/greatjim). (On a side note, Westeros alted games can be tough to read partly because alt accounts get randomized and recycled after every game.).
~Zar.-
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In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...83415#p4283415]post 477[/url], Dolorous Edd wrote:Plssie/Zar, obviously you short term memory is wacky has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..
Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..
I got too go so I will finish reading later
I asked you if you had read anyothergames, since you seem to sound so convinced of your "meta goodness" on Regfan. Given that you were one of Regfan's converters to Mafia in the Fringe game, it should have been evident to you that the meta you're using could be used to analyze how Regfan acts according toeitheralignment.
~ Zar.-
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As far as I can tell, this is the first thing you've had to say about Hyperion all game. Care to explain your vote?
In post 470, Dolorous Edd wrote:Pless is always more of an attacker as town
With the confidence you say this, I almost forget that you've only seen me play three games . (I also don't think I was much of "an attacker" in the First Law game -- my memory of that game is largely of me posting a couple of (incorrect) town reads, arguing about theory with people, and then being killed at night because the healer/doc decided to ignore the fact I kept posting "heal me" in large, friendly letters.)
In post 474, Minimum wrote:Nah, Pless. People can draw their own conclusions on Plum.
I know what I think about Plum. I wanted to know whatyouthink about Plum. I still do?
In post 494, SnowStorm wrote:I think this also explains why I haven't "contributed" much and my lack of suspects. I don't think there's a single subject that hasn't been touched by meta and I can't evaluate anything that is related to meta from a player I'm not familiar with.
Are you saying you plan to be this unhelpfulall game?
~ Pless-
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In post 500, Dolorous Edd wrote:Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum
Er. Right, so:
1) Regfan's early posts made you assume he was town.
2) When you read him in iso, you decided he was suspicious, because...
3) Posting summaries and reads of lots of players is something you tend to do as scum.
Since I actuallyhavereread Regfan recently, I'm finding this a bit hard to swallow. His very first post -- one of the posts that made you assume he was town -- is a big summary/read of lots of players. But apparently you find this sort of post suspicious .
In post 510, bvoigt wrote:Does MoS always play like this?
This is a good question. I'm sure I remember MoS from one of the earlier Eddard Stark modded games (Feast?) and this isn't how he seemed to play then .
In post 511, Regfan wrote:Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent
I didn't say it was old. I mean, I didn't skimthatmuch. It was still a newbie game though, and I'm not sure why we should give it more weight than recent big games. (I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree about Hyperion's day 1 play in the Fringe game, which I didn't think was good at all.)
In post 512, Lyanna Stark wrote:In post 462, Plessiezarus wrote:While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
Pless
He's been evil now three times as he's played it twice here. Here's a link to his most recent scum game that I know of. We were lover partners in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258
Right, I just meant "at Westeros". Thanks for the link - I'll look over it later today.
I read the underlined at "annoying" when I first looked at your post. And I was going to say that maybe Edd had a point .
In post 512, Lyanna Stark wrote:In post 475, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 474, Minimum wrote:Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."
Spoiler:
Could you expand on how you view any of that as sniping from the sidelines?
Ooh, I'll field this one for Arthur!
Spoiler:
In post 512, Lyanna Stark wrote:
Remember when I said you were going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur was giving your hydra? Yeah, you keep knocking off town notches. I don't know if it's because you're getting cocky because you finally won a scum game or you just think that insulting people for no reason makes you look town, but either way you might want to rethink your approach.
I can't remember what I was going to say in reply to thiswith Arthur as his co-head, it's not really surprising Alek would go for this approach, is it?
In post 514, mockingjaye wrote:Hyperion’s “placeholding” Quote Wall would have been better served being saved as a draft; posting it looks like he just wanted to get something that looked like there might be thought and substance behind it on the board before too much more of the game went by him. Also, I think it’s reeeally reaching to go to the sign-up thread and find a post made before anyone had role pms and use it to justify an attack.Third:Hyperion 305 wrote: It looks like you are already suggesting multiball, but then attack Feysal for suggesting ti [sic].
I can see where you're coming from with your other points against Hyperion (and can only point to the chorus of people saying "no, this is how he plays as town, honest"), but I don't get this. Edd was attacking somebody for assuming the game was multiball. It seems perfectly natural for Hyperion to point out that lots of people clearly assumed it was (going to be) multiball -- the fact the post he quotes is from the sign-up thread (before anyone, including Edd, had a role PM) just makes the contrast between that post and Edd's later "wow, who said it was multiball?" stance the more striking. Don't see anything wrong with going back to compare the two.
In post 514, mockingjaye wrote:Shadow: His snarky play reminds me very much of the last game, when he was scum.Fourth:
Could somebody who played in AFFC perhaps make a list of who was scum for me? As far as I can tell, it's not been revealed on the game thread, which currently only goes up to page 60 / the start of day 3 (I assume because of the board crash a while back?).
~ Pless-
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In post 395, StefanB wrote:Okay
Unchoose
Choose: Shadow
Will think later who is better to lynch, who to be our assasin (if we have to use this tactics. )
At the moment I am using this as 2 votes.
So Stefan, have you given this some thought yet? Who would you rather send to the wall?
In post 499, Dolorous Edd wrote:
As for you,I haven't played with Zar muchas he mods just about every game On Westeros..
Alek I don't remember us playing any games ever, so I don't know where/what you're basing your meta on me :S
89 (The R'hllor game) was your first mafia game, right? The only game I've played since is 91.5 (the Double handed Mafia Mini), which you did not play.
In post 501, SnowStorm wrote:
No, it means I'll be able to read them better once there's more than meta to work with, like a lynch...
Your passive stance is out of character though. Why aren't you questioning players? Isn't there anything that you have found odd this far in game?
~Zar.-
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In post 554, Tyene Sand wrote:Pless is indeed sniping from the sidelines. I don't know if this is a typical feature of his play, but for example, calling Arthur out on hypocrisy as he does in Post 355 is pretty pointless and reads like an unnecessary attempt to rile him up. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell.
Hypocrisy isn't automatically a scumtell, no. But when somebody is pressed to give reasons for a claimed town-read or scum-read, and can only offer arguments that are incredibly inconsistent with their prior stances or their own behavior, then thatissuspicious. I also have no idea why you'd classify my post 355 as "sniping from the sidelines" - Edd asked me a question, I replied and asked some questions of my own. If I was commenting on people who weren't talking to me, sure, you could call that "sniping from the sidelines" if you wanted. But saying slightly pointed things to people I was already involved in a dialogue with? . Hardly.
By the way, Edd, you're still free to answer those questions whenever you like.You can explain the inconsistency behind your suddenly acquired doubts about Regfan that I point out in Post 517, while you're at it.
In post 554, Tyene Sand wrote:Something else I'd like from Pless--follow-up on the reason you asked Regfan about his townread on me.
I asked Regfan about his town-read on you because Zar and I don't see it (we thought and think you look pretty bad). Since Regfan generally has good town-reads and we agreed with most of his others so far this game, we wanted to see if he could convince us we were wrong. He didn't.
In post 583, Dolorous Edd wrote:At this pointno onespeculated at anything relating to multiball, so coming off like that and saying it without saying something like "assuming" or something, yes, it's suspicious.
This is still a ridiculous reason to suspect anybody. The post you quote is not at all suspicious.
~ Pless-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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Arthur, stop fluffing the thread, would you? This is not The Thread That Never Ends.
1) Pless asked you about yourSudden transformation into CESsilent vote on Hyperion and the reasons behind it.
2-3) Back in 355 we had some questions regarding your assessment on Benmage:
In post 355, Plessiezarus wrote:In post 354, D.Edd wrote:In post 344, Plessiezarus wrote:
Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer?
I wasn't asking to test him.
I was asking because he is very likely town, and I was trying to see why he was thinking what he was thinking, on certain people that I wouldn't necessarily have placed in the same spot at that moment.
1) Where did I say you were testing him? If you wanted to see what he was thinking, why did you not share your thoughts and explain why/if you disagreed?
2) Why is Benmage "very likely town"? Statements that are missing the why are so tedious to deal with, after all...
~ Pless
and, 4) While you're at it, would you please address the incongruence pointed in 517?
~Zar.-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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In post 615, SnowStorm wrote:Plessiezarus, besides me, who are your scum-reads?
You're still our top suspect. We're also feeling pretty suspicious of Tyene, redff and, after Post 535 and Post 538, bvoigt. (Those three are pretty much in order of how much we suspect them.) Mina's more recent posts have not done much, if anything, to allay our earlier doubts about Minimum, who we'd rank just below those four. To a lesser extent, we have bad feelings about greenknight (formerlysword), Feysal and Salamance.
* We're currently working on a post about Tyeneblame Zar if it's not finished soon.
* redFF spent the start of day 1 pushing what felt like a slightly dodgy case against Starbuck. After being V/LA for most of the week, he returns to the game to ... continue this argument with Starbuck? Ugh. Would like some signs of effort being made to scum-hunt.
* bvoigt's attack on Staeg for demanding Starbuck name-claim seems contrived. Either it's "anti-town" or it's "not dangerous" - it can't be both. (Also, "needing to reread" Edd seems like an excuse not to offer an opinion on a vocal player as much as anything else: seems implausible that one could 'not notice' somebody with so many posts.)
* Didn't like the fact that sword spent so much of his catch-up post (Post 342) rehashing the discussion about the correct way to use the choose mechanic. Seemed like a very safe topic to stay on. Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.
* While we don't find Feysal's implicit assumption of multiball suspicious, we get the sense that he's avoiding pushing any new ideas or suspects. He spends more time discussing past games or general theory than seems helpful.
* We already said that Salamence's vote in Post 56 looks bad. Don't like many of his later posts either (especially Post 393, which seems weirdly defensive). Also rather like MoI's point against him in Post 525.
On the other hand, we're pretty sure that Tammy, Pandora, Regfan, Starbuck and BBmolla are town (names in decreasing order of confidence). Fairly sure about all five, but especially of the first three. Think enough has been said about why already.
Much weaker town-reads on Amrun (really onpappum), Benmage, Jal, MagnaOfIllusion, Mockingjaye, Plum+Nacho, Shinori (really onHyperion), Staeg and Stefan. Note sure what we think about Shadow1psc (we can't come to a consensus at the moment, but we're debating it) or Edd (who veers between sounding incredibly townish and sounding ... well, not). And of course we're still waiting for Edd to answer our questions...
Why did you decide that now was a good time to unvote? Weren't you earlier saying there was no need to do this yet?
~ Pless (but this is much more of a proper hydra post than usual)-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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In post 622, Dolorous Edd wrote:"In a game with 2 evil factions, an evil player who knows he can be killed by the other team will tend to avoid a leadership position, and avoid showing himself to be among the best players, because he doesn't want to be killed. He'll be more under the radar - he doesn't have to be the quietest...he just needs to be less aggressive and less of a threat than some of the other players."
I'm pretty sure this doesn't work on MS (where, for one thing, multiball games are a lot more common; any easy way of spotting scum like this would have inevitably ceased to work after a while, if it ever did).
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's rubbish anyway, it's just that in Westeros games I don't want to say so .
Anyway, this is just yet more fluff. Your time would be better spentanswering people's questions. Please do.
~ Pless (unlike the last post, this is just me)-
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In post 628, greenknight wrote:In post 621, Plessiezarus wrote: Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.
That's simple enough... It's a 28p game which means a lot of inertia in terms of moving wagons to the point of being a serious lynch threat. Since my predecessor wasn't actually voting and catching up will take a while, it's correct play to place initial votes quickly imo.
This explanation doesn't make much sense to me. If you think it's hard to move wagons in a big game, adding your vote to the biggest wagon is surely not going to make it easier to pressure new people. And until you've caught up on the thread, how can you be confident that the most popular wagon in the middle of day 1 is also the best wagon?
Mina's reaction to this vote is more the sort of thing we were expecting to see from a town-Mina. Would have probably been more convinced by a non-edited version of Post 641 though (assuming such a non-edited version actually existed, of course).
In post 638, Mastermind of Sin wrote:I still don't like the Minimum wagon, so I'm going toUnvote, Vote: Shinorito give a little competition for a better option.
At the point you cast this vote Shinori and SnowStorm were tied on five votes each. What do you think of SnowStorm? Don't think you've mentioned him as a town-read, or ... well, at all, yet. Can't see that you mentioned Shinori before, either. Why Shinori over SnowStorm? For that matter, why not try voting for Tyene? (She's the only person you've really talked about suspecting to date.)
And yes, we promised a post about Tyene. Still working on it. Will respond to Edd's long post later too (just reading it was effort enough for now).
~ Pless-
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OK. Tyene first, then we'll respond to Edd's big post.
People have already pointed out that Post 247 is a bad post. There's no good reason to choose somebody you think is a bad lynch (and Tyene's stance on choosing had earlier been that you should choose people you'd want to lynch; see for instance Post 45). Her responses when challenged about this post (see Post 261-, Post 569) seem disingenuous - she spends a lot of time focusing on things other than the incongruity of choosing somebody you've just called "a bad lynch". And the oft-repeated "I'm just sheeping Regfan because the game's so hard to follow" excuse wears a bit thin; it seems to be something she brings up to defend odd looking votes, but ignores when she's promoting her own pro-town credentials (see for instance Post 414).
More generally we have the sense that Tyene cares more about what people think of her than she does about hunting scum. She actually has some good posts (we quite like the redFF vote as explained in Post 91, for instance) but things don't seem to fit together quite right.
* Don't like the repeated defense of Edd. This might be what Regfan called a town-tell for Tierce earlier (in Post 425) but to us it feels like more than defending a town-read. It feels like an attempt to buddy up to Edd. (The repeated remarks to the effect that she "could do worse than sheeping Regfan" also feel at times like an attempt to curry favour with Regfan.) It doesn't seem that Tyene has ever seriously wondered about Edd's alignment; she's just looking for a reason to call him town.
* Given that she's claimed to be sheeping Regfan because "there are walls that I have skimmed at most, and at this stage I'm following the game mostly by virtue of reading Regfan's posts.", it seems odd that she'd chide Shadow1psc for "wanting to stifle discussion" or berate MoS for daring to vote for somebody before reading them in iso. Yes, "hypocrisy is not a scum tell", but this sort of disconnect seems very strange. The posts aimed at Shadow1psc and MoS seem like attempts to gain town-credit by mouthing platitudes ("discussion is good", "town players should be careful and reread before voting"). They don't seem like the sort of things you'd say if you were finding it hard to keep up with the thread and needed to rely on another player's summary posts. But this is exactly what Tyene has claimed.
* Although we suspect SnowStorm (and encourage more people to vote for him), we don't like the manner in which Tyene does so. We didn't find SnowStorm not unvoting Benmage all that suspicious. As Snowtorm says himself, there was no scum-motivation for him to keep his vote on Benmage while declaring him a town-read. Benmage was in no danger of being lynched. It's "odd", maybe, but surely notsuspicious. In Post 352 it seems to us that Tyene is just happy to have a found a vote that other people have explained for her. She's very careful to point out that she's just agreeing with Regfan and Lyanna here. This vote does not seem consistent with her Post 417 ("You should stop assuming stupid = scum") or her irritated response to MoS's "lazy" vote on her. The fact somebody's actions seem to make little sense shouldn't automatically lead you to assume they are scum.
* Something about the repeated RP also gets on our nerves. It feels slightly too self-aware, as if she knows people are going to gloss over it. (Certainly, the closing line of Post 93 - in which Tyene preemptively defends a possible mislynch of Feysal on the grounds he'd make a good vig-choice - seems like something that would have attracted more comment if it wasn't cloaked in RP language.)
Tyene: can you link to other games in which you've defended your town-reads (as town yourself, preferably)? Can you link to any theme games in which you've RPed in this way before, for that matter?
Why (and when) did Minimum go from being a scum-read (as late as Post 554) to being somebody whose survival you "would much appreciate"?
~ Pless (but really this is a proper hydra post)-
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In post 644, Dolorous Edd wrote:So it’s much better right now to create pressure than really having to believe in your vote. I’m not saying just bandwagon or something, but you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point. At least, that’s the way I see it, because otherwise, scum can easily slip by.
Ok. Fair enough. Now, can you tell me how did you intend your vote on Hyperion to cause pressure if you did not state any reasons for it?
In post 644, Dolorous Edd wrote:As I said, he started the game out strongly, jumped right in, wasn’t really cautious, and really started scumhunting at an early stage. I think the majority if not all of scum would start the game on a cautious note especially in a game this large. You know, if you put yourself in a scum shoes, would you just really come out and start posting a lot and interact and stuff, or would you lean more towards the side of cautious?
Can you point at the posts that make you feel this way?
In post 644, Dolorous Edd wrote:That’s why upon reading Regfan’s post first, my mind clicked right away “town”. Upon assessing it, however, it really didn’t strike me as town as it did the first time around, and I realized that someone can easily begin the game like that and look strong while merely just writing a lot of words summarizing and putting tiers and stuff.
Ok, so something in Regfan's post is rubbing you off wrong. Can you give me some insight at what you think is iffy about Regfan's summary post in this game as compared as what he's done in other games? Or, can you just tell me what you find off in his summary?
In post 644, Dolorous Edd wrote:Umm, not really sure. I really can’t speak for Alek, but for me, I really don’t take “I suck” or something along those lines as you’re not getting lynched. Sorry I can’t really expand on this. But me and Alek are really two different people <_<
This isn't addressed to us, but touches on a point that has been bugging Pless. You seem to assume that players should discern which Hydra head has said what? Not everyone here is familiar with either of you, andPlessiez can't distinguish you for his lifesome of us aren't that good at noticing posting quirks in people (unless you of course are Mina and CES, in which the difference inthe gargantuan verbosity of Mina is obviousposting style is rather evident, --well unless Mina takes vow of silence, which she could but it then would be boring and we'd be yelling at her for it?--). I would appreciate if from now on you would make clear which head is saying what, and, for the sake of everyone's sanity, at leasttryto start acting like a single slot. Also,this is why Hydras should sign their posts.
~Zar.-
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In post 659, Tyene Sand wrote:Why is Post 247 a bad post?The only people bringing it up have been MoS (for reasons he cannot keep up once questioned about it) and Hascow (who hasn't explained it yet). And yes, there are reasons for choosing someone you think is a bad lynch, namely that you're putting a vig choice in their hands. I've explained this, Regfan has explained this, this isn't rocket surgery.
The underlined isn't actually true (but I'm only saying this since sniping from the sidelines is so fun). In any case, the number of people bringing it up so far isn't really relevant to whether or not Zar and I find it to be a bad post.
In post 659, Tyene Sand wrote:As for defending townreads, Regfan has already touched on this. Yes, I defend townreads. A lot. Won't bother linking--basically, check any and all of my games. As I've said, I'm a better townhunter than scumhunter, so watching how people interact with my townreads and how they make points against them is a good way for me to get later reads.
This still doesn't quite feel like what you're doing with Edd though . (Had a skim through day 1 of Weather Mafia II and your town-defending in that game seems different to what you're doing here. Perhaps that's mainly because the person you seem to spend the most time defending in that game, BBmolla, is somebody you then flip completely on and push to be lynched .) I guess if enough people who've seen you play insist this fits your town meta I'll have to accept that I'm wrong, butI don't like admitting I'm wrongit's still bothering me for now.
Anyway, might have a longer response to this once I've had a chance to talk things over with Zar.
In post 660, Pandora wrote:Shinori and redFF: still doing nothing. Votes plz.
In post 662, Tyene Sand wrote:I agree with the Totally Anonymous Head of the furry critter re: Shinori and redFF. Town guns pointed this way please and thank you.
You aren't actually voting for either of them yourself though ...
We think that redFF is a much better choice to be lynched than Shinori. I don't know enough about him to know if he's a sensible choice to choose, though, and I'm still happiest with our vote on SnowStorm. If people think redFF is a poor person to give a strongman vig-shot to, I wouldn't mind voting for redFF and choosing SnowStorm. SnowStorm hasn't offered much in the way of reads, but I at least agree with the few town-reads he's come up with.
I also agree with people who are suggesting switching Shadow1psc and Minimum as lynch/choose options. I don't think either are ideal, but I'd trust either Mina or CES with a vig-shot more than Shadow1psc after reading Post 419.
In post 664, Jal wrote:@Minimum: I'd actually prefer to see more bitchiness and self-pitying instead of telling us how you could have/were going to be moreso. Being a bitch and sore about yourself can come across as very genuine and sometimes town-like.
... and in any case, those posts are always fun to read .-
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In post 672, Tyene Sand wrote:
I don't get this. You were criticizing me for my lynch/choosing theory (that is, youIn post 669, Plessiezarus wrote:I also agree with people who are suggesting switching Shadow1psc and Minimum as lynch/choose options. I don't think either are ideal, but I'd trust either Mina or CES with a vig-shot more than Shadow1psc after reading Post 419.pick a good player who is a scumread to get Chosen and Lynch the chaff) but now seem to have a similar logic. Whatisthe problem with Post 247, then?
The situations aren't symmetric. People who are good choices to be Chosen are a proper subset of people who are good choices to be lynched.
Somebody who is a bad lynch is (surely by definition?) somebody you want to keep in the game for now. Such a person is, necessarily, also a bad choice to be Chosen. However, somebody can be a bad choice to Choose even if they are a good lynch. If player A and player B both look scummy then they are both good lynch choices. But if player A has repeatedly claimed that if Chosen they'll vig somebody I consider a strong town player, they are a bad choice to be Chosen.
I was not criticising you for the underlined, above. There's nothing wrong with Choosing a good player who is also a scum-read. My problem with the implicit logic of Post 247 is that by saying Minimum is a bad lynch you suggest youdon'thave a strong scum-read on them. Otherwise, how are they not a good lynch? And if Minimum is a bad lynch, you should not Choose them.
Preview-edit: Or, yeah, what Jal says.
~ Pless-
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Mina, I have a question for you, regarding the evolution of your Plum read.
Back in 455 you said you could see Plum as competent scum in your wagon, but expressed some doubt on your confidence on that statement.
but by 461 your opinion changed to:
In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...82586#p4282586]post 461[/url], Minimum wrote:
Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.
Which both Pless and I interpreted as you implying that you thought Nacho-Plum looked bad.
Thus, I'm kind of lost with your comments about them on 553, where you seem to have a slight-town read on the slot, since we had understood your previous comments about them somewhat differently.
Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination? Or can you walk me through it?
~ Zar.-
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In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...90849#p4290849]post 694[/url], Minimum wrote:In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...90798#p4290798]post 691[/url], Plessiezarus wrote:Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination?
Yes.
#458 is totes townish (although I remember thinking it was bad before, probably a first impression type deal, that, which might go some way to explaining the miscommunication).
Thanks CES?. Or did Mina really take that vow of silence ? If you didn'tand that was just CES trying to take you out of the limelightcan you (Mina) walk us through your train of thought, though? I mean, seems only fair since you took from us the joy of reading your breakdown.
~Zar.-
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In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...90396#p4290396]post 668[/url], Regfan wrote:their attempt to get me to explain my town read on Tierce and then progression to continue to think she's mafia elaborating on their reasoning is very townie even though I think they're wrong on her (Like really really wrong,Zar you should trust me on this readand her defending town-reads is her town-meta). Simiarily I like the way they're trying to get more out of Edd but fairly sure he's town too (His explanation over his paranoia about me actually makes quite a bit of sense so I think you're pushing a dead end now).
You know Regfan, given my history with you, I'd like to say I would want to trust your read, but tbh there's a part of me that doesn't. Not because I've withdrawn my opnion on you being town (I don't find any of your contributions so far suspicious, and find many of my thoughts mirrored in yours, plus your continued attempt to get us both to reconsider our reads based on what you've exposed so far only reinforces my townish read on you), but it's mostly because of experiences I've had in games we've both been somehow involved in. Setting aside the disastrous astray of the town in the WoT game in Westeros, I've seen you defend reads you deem strong for weak reasoning before. Back in the Scummies you had Gaoth/Magua build up suspicion around me based on you knowing I prefer playing Scum over Town. I kept following your case on obvTown Johhog on the TM Mountainous: it spun around a comment from Isa -from outside game- in which he had mentioned he was excited about playing the White Flag (and then you coming to find Johhog in his stead). So yeah, when I find that we either don't agree or we're not following along with your reasoning to a read, I prefer asking for an explanation to see where the difference is coming from, and then do my own discernment.
As far as Edd goes, the heads behind that Hydra are somewhat erractic and their logic is not normally straightforward, regardless of alignment. I'd advise you (and others) not to automatically shelve them as town just because the hydra is talkative and posting a lot. Arthur and Alek are both always chatty/high activity, overeager players and Alek has actually been lying comparatively low in this game. Him not having stepped up to the playground even when Arthur has claimed indefinite V/LA, and has done little to engage in the hunt leaving the bulk to Arthur is uncharacteristic of him.
~Zar.-
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Hmm. Shinori, when did you start suspecting SnowStorm, exactly?
Went back to look at you in iso. Here's the only post so far in which you've talked about who you suspect.
In post 636, Shinori wrote:So after ISO'ing minimum, I'll state that I think he's most likely scum or lazy ass town. His first part of the game doesn't help at all. Starbucks vote wasn't that good, neither was the snowstorm vote that was then swapped in his next post to salamence who he appears to have been on all game. After he voted on salamence his posts seem small and not too helpful and he doesn't do much till about post #323 where mina specifically posts and then again at #446 and #455 where I guess he started to feel pressured by the votes to do something. I don't like the majority of his responses to players though.
Just from the timing of his votes and for how long he's been on salamence if he were to flip scum sal would most likely be town and BVO should be looked at. [...]
Shadows seems decently scummy, he had a fair amount of posts that didn't really defend him all that well and some posts where he would just quote one of his previous posts as his answer. He also stated that he would most likely shoot MoI or hascow for basically revenge reasons which seems stupid and not that helpful. [...]
From this, I can see where your scum-reads on Minimum and Shadow come from. And sort of where your scum-read on BVoigt comes from, I guess. But you say nothing about suspecting SnowStorm, nor have you mentioned him in any other post. In fact, you implicitly defend SnowStorm above (because you say Minimum's vote for him "wasn't that good").
I'd ask "what has SnowStorm done since Post 636 that makes him look scummy?" but ... well, SnowStorm doesn't haveany postsbetween Post 636 and Post 750. What are we missing here? Did you go back to reread SnowStorm at some point? What made you do that?
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In post 756, greenknight wrote:In post 755, Plums Yo Mamma wrote:Greenknight. You continue to be incredibly disingenuous and obvious scum. Just so you know.
Your case is idiotic. Just so you know.
What do you think of Plum's case on BVoigt?
~ Pless-
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In post 779, Pandora wrote:On the other hand this Shinori wagon disintegrating is depressing. Looking back at the current voters, Beyond Staeg's vote he never mentions HyperShinori again. He's also still on his original choose on Starbuck.Droopy dogMolla isn't much better. asdfkg Edd does the same thing am I the only person on this wagon actually reading the fucking posts of the person I'm voting for instead of getting comfy while having wall arguments with everyone else? No wonder this isn't happening. If someone were to put a gun to my head right now and make me choose I'd go for SnowStorm but I was wondering if maybe the multiple people who mentioned HyperShinori looks scummy could look at him and vote him for being scum? -.-
We think Shinori is lookingmuchworse than he ("they" now, I guess) did before his last few posts (and we originally thought that Hyperion looked okay). (When asked when and why he's decided SnowStorm looks scummy he posts a wall of quotes, glosses them with a couple of slightly disingenuous sentences, and then votes for him? Really?)
But SnowStorm is still the better option, we think. Sorry.
In post 794, Dolorous Edd wrote:Jal is totally scum. Seriously. No jokes. Go ISO him in Newbie 1237 and go look at this. In 1237 he was so town it hurt by like mid-day1. His overall tone and everything feels so off this time.
Plus also, this way you don't need to respond to his(?) questions or criticisms in Post 664? We have Jal as something of a town-read, ourselves.
You're going to have to spell out the huge difference between Jal's play so far in this game and in Newbie 1237, because I'm not seeing it. Also, since you've interacted with Jal (and even brought up Newbie 1237) before this, why is it only now you're so suspicious?
In post 794, Dolorous Edd wrote:Plus his Snowstorm vote is crap. In the same post where he votes, he simply says that he is getting "slight scum vibes" from Snowstorm and he doesn't think his posts are "completely" genuine. This kind of ambiguous statments feel forced as hell and he looks like he is trying to justify bandwagoning Snow.
Didn't you spend ages in Post 664 and Post 701 attempting to explain why you thought it was fine to vote for somebody you didn't have a strong-scum read on? Or was it a different hydra-head who told us that "you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point"? Why did you not react to Jal's "crap" vote when it was cast? You've made plenty of posts since then.Other than Snow recently voting for Jal, what's changed to make you reconsider it?
What do you think about Snow, by the way? Is he still null? For that matter, did you ever explainwhySnowStorm was null? You failed to answer the question in Post 470 ... did you ever come back to it?
In post 804, DCLXVI wrote:Ok, I have finally skimmed through enough of this to make some sense out of what is happening.
Things I think I know:
-Dolorous is town. From the posts of hers I skimmed its clear she is active and definitely scum hunting which is good.
Dolorous Edd is male. (Didn't somebody else have this same confusion earlier?) I'm not sure how skimming can tell you somebody is "definitely scum hunting", but okay. You can definitely pick better people to sheep though.
In post 804, DCLXVI wrote:
-I think MoI and shadow are also town.The selfvote from MoIand the sarcasm from shadowseem to show more of a town mindset, scum generally don't play that loosely. (at least from my experience)
-Not liking benmage much
Didn't Benmage also self-Choose? Why is it a town-tell for MoI and not for anybody else?
In post 804, DCLXVI wrote:
and yes, I'm aware I'm joining two of the bigger wagons. It's not my fault they got caught before I joined.
What an odd thing to say. Jal only had two votes when you posted this. SnowStorm, Minimum, Salamance, and even Shinori were all bigger wagons at that point. If anything, you seem to beavoidingsaying anything about the "bigger wagons".
~ Pless-
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I'll let Plesscontinue to aggraviate youhandle the other things in this post.
In post 813, Dolorous Edd wrote:
In post 807, Plessiezarus wrote: What do you think about Snow, by the way? Is he still null? For that matter, did you ever explainwhySnowStorm was null? You failed to answer the question in Post 470 ... did you ever come back to it?
You want me to explain...whyhe's null?!?!
Yea. Okay.
Sure we do?
You and SnowStorm have a similar sign-in date to Soph's board, and have been in basically every game played there since (looking back at the records, SS's first game was 82.75, and yours was 83). Given the many games you've played together,somethingin his play must be striking you as off to warrant a null? Right? What is it? (Here's an altless one for the curious). How are SS's reactions even remotely similar to what he normally plays like?
~Zar.-
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In post 813, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 807, Plessiezarus wrote: Didn't you spend ages in Post 664 and Post 701 attempting to explain why you thought it was fine to vote for somebody you didn't have a strong-scum read on? Or was it a different hydra-head who told us that "you don’t really necessarily have to believe with all your soul and heart that someone is scum to be voting/choosing them at this point"? Why did you not react to Jal's "crap" vote when it was cast? You've made plenty of posts since then.Other than Snow recently voting for Jal, what's changed to make you reconsider it?
Umm, are you planning to aggrivate me on purpose? But I'll play your little game.
Plessasksfor why Arthur votes Hyper (nevermind like 2 days after).
Arthur answers him.
Unfortunately, Arthur is a very non-static person.
So while PlessZar is on the satellite delay, Arthur has already moved past that, and has found a better place to move his vote, esp considering he doesn't think THAT VOTE IS DOING MUCH THERE ANYMORE.
If you're going to jump on every little move and need ever little idea that forms in my head, then I'm sorry, but this is becoming both mentally exhausting and ditracting.
Kind of baffled by this reaction, to be honest . We're not trying to aggravate you for the sake of it at all -- we're asking you questions about your votes and your reads because, apparently unlike several other people, we're not convinced that you're town yet and want to get a better handle on what you're saying.
We're not trying to focus unduly on you or single you out in any way -- you're not even one of top scum reads (in fact, if forced to choose at gunpoint we'd probably guess you were town). But you have more posts than most people playing, so (inevitably, I think) we probably find more questions to ask you than we do, say, redFF. If we're really upsetting you for some reason, then we can only apologise: this isn't a deliberate strategy on our part, and it's not how we want to play the game. (Though, really, we're not quite sure whybeing asked to explain your opinions of other playersin a game of mafia should prompt this sort of anguished response .)
For the record, I first asked you to explain your Hyperion vote the same day you cast it (I'm pretty sure I asked as soon as I'd read it, in fact, though Zar may have posted a couple of times before that). You might have taken days to answer, but that's hardly a result ofusfailing to keep up.
But more importantly, you seem to have (unintentionally?) completely missed the point of Post 807. I wasn't saying "why did you move your vote off Hyperion?", which is the question you seem to be answering. I was saying "if Jal's vote for SnowStorm looks so bad, why did you not comment on it at the time?".
... honestly, if it's only going to irritate you to answer this, feel free to not bother. Seems pretty obvious you're not getting Chosen or lynched today, and we have better suspects to push and question before deadline. Happy enough to listen to Regfan and leave you alone for now (at least for the Day).
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In post 845, Dolorous Edd wrote:
Anyways, of course I'll answer your question If I go off on anyone/anything (again), just know that it was was prob 99% because of something that happened IRL or something, so nothing personal or game-related at all.
Hey! I want an answer to my question too!
~ Zar.-
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Feeling a bit under the weather, so don't expect me around. This is a full Zar post.
In post 881, DCLXVI wrote:
I like what you're doing here Reg. You went and placed high expectations on me. (Must have reads on everyone and know the context of the game,) and of course being that I had just replaced in there's no chance I would meet either of those so you get an easy way to call me scum. I'm sure their is a name for this logicall fallacy you are promoting but I can't think of it now.
In saying I had two few reads you conveniently missed the part where I said I would be giving more later. In fact I'm find adding Regfan to my scumlist. His attack on me is very terrible and quite frankly a bit opportunistic.
My biggest problem with DCL's 881 is not his hyperbolic reactionper se, but the way that Regfan's comments on DCL were chainsawed to use against him. Feels manipulative.
@ the Stark-Girl:
We have a fairly strong read on both ScumStorm & MiniScum (I've been wanting to use that name for a bit xD), the former being in the OMG-SO-SCUM tier for both of us, while the latter I have a weaker confidence about (mostly because Mina's annoyance reads as legit to me, and I don't feel confident about hypo-MinaScum going about poking MoI as much; my opinion on CES' remains unchanged, though). Anyway, your comment "still can't get to town on SnowStorm" in 710, seems to imply there's something about him making you hesitant about considering him obvscum here. What is it?
~.Zar-
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I really picked the wrong day to take off from the game . Still need to properly catch-up, but since I've seen the claim...
UNVOTE: SnowStorm
Will probably switch to bvoigt (almost certainly, in fact) but I need to talk it over with Zar first.
In post 998, Lyanna Stark wrote:Re: Greenknight - I remember thinking he was scum during the beginning of day one in the game we played together, and he's kind of reminding me of that here. As I said before, I'm not a big fan of his posts, but I'm not reading him as scum either.
Link? I've only seen greenknight in Feast... we're pretty confident in that scum-read.
Obviously.
(That was pretty smug, right? I was going for smug.)
In post 984, Tyene Sand wrote:I still want a partner claim, but there's no point in stalling this and give time for one of my town reads to get wagoned.
If you're SnowStorm's mason buddy, this is your time to claim. Otherwise your Frey friend eats rope.
This makes no sense though. Unless the game isn't multiball (and not even Edd is pretending to think it isn't), a mason claim this early means SnowStorm has definitely ensured his own death, whether he's town or scum. No need for a partner claim today at all.
In post 998, Lyanna Stark wrote:
In post 905, Plessiezarus wrote:
@ the Stark-Girl:
We have a fairly strong read on both ScumStorm & MiniScum (I've been wanting to use that name for a bit xD), the former being in the OMG-SO-SCUM tier for both of us, while the latter I have a weaker confidence about (mostly because Mina's annoyance reads as legit to me, and I don't feel confident about hypo-MinaScum going about poking MoI as much; my opinion on CES' remains unchanged, though). Anyway, your comment "still can't get to town on SnowStorm" in 710, seems to imply there's something about him making you hesitant about considering him obvscum here. What is it?
~.Zar
Nothing I can put my finger on and if his claim is a real claim then hmm... There are several reasons why I could tell you why he's scum, but there are little flashes of the SnowStorm Post 484 that I know who gets intimidated and tends not to contribute much at times and becomes easy lynch bait. He hasn't given me any good reason to think he's town, but I also get caught up on calling him scum, and it could just be as simple as him seeming genuinely baffled that people think he's scum. By logic he's scum, but it just feels too easy somehow.
I know that it's past this question, but what do you think about his mason claim?
First instinct is to doubt it, but ... meh. Might be enough to explain his slightly off behaviour, I guess (town-mason SnowStorm would want to avoid giving away his connections to a partner for the same reasons scum SnowStorm would).
Anyway, more to follow later.
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In post 1009, Dolorous Edd wrote:*And I think the Choose has to be locked in before the lynch, or am I wrong? If a lynch happens before a choice, does it automatically go to the highest choice wagon?
The "why is everyone else so dense?" attitude you and Alek have decided to affect in this game would be more convincing (though hardly less irritating) if you actually bothered to read the thread.
In post 4, Eddard Stark wrote:A simple majority will lock in an assassin, however if there is no majority then the person with the most votes shall be chosen. Should two or more people have the same number of votesthen they will all die and become assassins...no wait that'd be terriblethen an assassin will be randomly determined.
Somebody will be Chosen when the day ends, majority or no majority.
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In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...97489#p4297489]post 929[/url], SnowStorm wrote:In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p...93990#p4293990]post 814[/url], Plessiezarus wrote:I
You and SnowStorm have a similar sign-in date to Soph's board, and have been in basically every game played there since (looking back at the records, SS's first game was 82.75, and yours was 83). Given the many games you've played together,somethingin his play must be striking you as off to warrant a null? Right? What is it? (Here's an altless one for the curious). How are SS's reactions even remotely similar to what he normally plays like?
~Zar.
Ok, Zar, how are my reactions in this game different from the others and how does that make me scum? What scum tells have you on me?
My first game was your first game also and we've played some games together since then, but I've played more games with Arthur than with you, who modded most of them. What makes you think your read on me is more accurate than Arthur's?
And don't compare this game to games like the one you just linked to. It's completely incomparable.
Stuff like this post. Mostly. (For the record, my first game was 82.5, not 82.75).
Ever since Game 86 you seem to have made an effort into improving your game, which I'm not seeing here. As Tammy pointed out, most of the time you are playing, even when you do not have a suspect, you're in the discussion asking questions and being engaged in the discernment of alignment of players by expressing opinions or sharing thoughts.
Modding a game is evidently very different from playing one, which gives me a different perspective from the unspoiled one I get as a regular player. As a mod, already knowing your aligment, I get to see how you go about approaching the game and engaging the other players.
The way you seem to be pressing the few cases you made seems uncommitted and un-explanatory, coming from you. You aren't going over posts or being proactive. Except for calling Tammy town in 560 you weren't even invested the least in identifying players that you thought were town until called out for it. This is behavior I find disparing from somebody who's played more than 20 games (if my count is right).
I do not think you could be overwhelmed by the volume of posts in this thread. You've participated in large Westerosi games that require much more attention than this one, yet you strike me as trying to ride the wave here.
Now that you've claimed Mason, do you not accept you might have been acting differently from the way you usually do?
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This is part of a much longer proper Hydra post Plessiez and I have been working on, butPless is a terrible flake and Zar had to keep pestering him to do itbeen fairly busy.
Obviously the mason-claim means SnowStorm is off the table today. We're not entirely convinced by it though. Think our earlier reasons for suspecting him are still pretty compelling, and they're only partly explained by the idea he was acting differently because of his Mason role. Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.
Ignoring SnowStorm for now. We'll get back to you with our cases and our vote.
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Gah. Been pretty terrible at keeping up with this. Kind of bad timing for both me and Zar over the last few days; I do expect this to improve though.
In post 1200, Jal wrote:I've given up trying to fully catch-up to the weekday play. Makes me want to get my own hydra slave to do the work for me and make notes.
Sadly (as Zar can confirm), this doesn't work quite so well in practice as it does in theory ...
(I've also more or less given up on fully catching up at this point; I've skimmed the last few pages and will go back to read properly later.)
In post 1200, Jal wrote:@Plessiezarus:
In post 1187, Plessiezarus wrote:Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.
Okay, I'm relatively new to closed or theme games here. I've read up safenames on the wiki, but I wasn't aware of mods giving out saferole claims. Is this common?
I might have been understanding that wrong . I was under the impression that in previous Eddard Stark modded games, scum were handed (on request) safe fake claims, not just safe fake names. Should go back and recheck this, I guess (or somebody with actual experience can correct me).
In post 1218, greenknight wrote:Claim: I am snow's mason partner, he can confirm
Oh, bloody hell.
UNCHOOSE
In post 1219, Dolorous Edd wrote:For fucks sake, what the fuck is it up with us targetting masons, unless anyone who is about to get lynched claims mason (or this is some grand master plan by Snow and greenknight)
I'm certainly inclined to view the fact that two (out of four) of our (that is mine and Zar's) top suspects have claimed Mason buddies as a point against the claims. I'd have felt a lot better if SnowStorm had at some point claimed his partner was somebody we had a town-read on, for instance. But this is irrelevant, for now. Obviously we're not lynching either claimed Mason.
In post 1222, Tyene Sand wrote:greenknight has been defending a townread on SnowStorm from the beginning and was one of seven slots I had down as having never voiced a [playerslot] --> SnowStorm scumread of any kind.
UNCHOOSE: greenknight
CHOOSE: DCLXVI
We agree with the suspicion of DCLXVI - this was supposed to be part of the subject of the hydra post I kept telling Zar I'd help work on .
VOTE: bvoigt
CHOOSE: DCLXVI
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Okay, quickly salvaging what we were working on in the attempted hydra catch-up post, here's why we think DCLXVI is a much better choice than Feysal.
* We thought and still think that redFF looked pretty bad. He did nothing all game except tunnel on Starbuck. That would perhaps be excusable if all his posts were really early in the day, but even after he returned from V/LA he had nothing better to do except argue with her.
* DCL's posts on entry are bad, as is the fact he immediately suspects people like Tyene and Regfan who call him on them. Just don't understand why a town player would get caught up in what seems like (putting our diplomatic hats on) an obvious clash of playstyles between Tyene and MoI that has no bearing on anybody's alignment.
* His self-consciousness when voting for Jal (in Post 804) is also very odd: "yes, I'm aware I'm joining two of the bigger wagons. It's not my fault they got caught before I joined." Very defensive sounding, especially since Jal had all of two votes on at this point. In the meantime, his catch-up post conveniently avoids coming to a conclusion about any of the genuinely big wagons.
* His defensiveness continues beyond this point - he looks pretty bad with his exchanges with Regfan, we think, and Post 1053 especially seems more like annoyed scum ("you called me useless, but see, I'm not!") than any sort of town-reaction.
He'd definitely have our vote if there was more time left in the day. For reasons we've already discussed, bvoigt is also a suspect, but we think DCLXVI is a better bet for being scum. But since somebody is getting chosen whatever happens (and we're nothugelyopposed to Feysal), choosing DCLXVI seems like a decent compromise.
In post 1218, greenknight wrote:Claim: I am snow's mason partner, he can confirm
Do you have a nameclaim? (Not that everybody who's familiar with the books hasn't guessed what it should be.)
In post 1226, Saporerint wrote:DCL is RedFF, I think, and I have a town read on RedFF
Please explain your town read on redFF.
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Current reads (almost current, anyway - Zar is catching up on recent developments a bit, so these might be Pless-heavy).
STRONG TOWN READS
Tammy, Pandora, Regfan, BBmolla, Plum+Nacho, Jal
WEAK TOWN READS
Stefan, Staeg, Edd, MoS, kortul, Starbuck, Benmage, Mockingjaye,
NULL
Albert B Rampage, MagnaOfIllusion, Amrun, Shadow1psc
WEAK SCUM READS
Shinori, Sapororerint, Feysal, Tierce,
STRONG SCUM READS
DCLXVI, bvoigt, Minimum
---
CLAIMED MASONS
SnowStorm, greenknight
We're kind of sceptical of the mason claim, to be honest. As I said earlier, the fact greenknight -- one of the other big day 1 suspects -- is SnowStorm's claimed partner seems to make a fake claim much more plausible. It's more likely Scum-SnowStorm claims Mason if greenknight is his (only?) partner than it is Scum-SnowStorm claims Mason if his partner is in a much stronger position, surely. But still, can leave these two for a bit and see if the problem solves itself.
In post 1377, Lyanna Stark wrote:Meh. Okay Regfan. I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote.
VOTE: stefanb
I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?
In post 1380, StefanB wrote:Not much to defend myself. Not much to claim either. (No PR and I am pretty sure from the crumps I used now and then you can last halway guess the direction of the character)
If you go back and reread Stefan, it's pretty clear what character he is softclaiming here. Which is a bit weird, since that character seems a rather unlikely member of the Lannister Alliance (in this book).
As above, we have (have had) a weakish town read on Stefan for a bit, but this softclaim seems odd. Still feel like bvoigt is a better lynch for today though.
In post 1390, Saporerint wrote:Lynching StefanB is objectively the best play at this point. I think Bvoight's town, and I don't want another claim.
Stefan is "objectively" the best lynch because you "think" Bvoigt is town? I'm not sure words work this way...
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In post 1399, Shadow1psc wrote:we need to lock in our choose
No we don't?
As long as DCLXVI has more votes to be Chosen than anybody else when the day ends, he will be Chosen.
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In post 1373, Dolorous Edd wrote:I'm not posting for the rest of the day (game-time) for the benefit of my health.
But I had more questions! Well, one more question, really ...
This is your latest lot of reads.
In post 1346, Dolorous Edd wrote:Re-arranging reads.
TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan
LEANING TOWN:SnowStorm, greenknight, Starbuck, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, Shadow1psc, kortul
NULL:Minimum, Salamence20, Shinori, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion
LEANING SCUM:Mastermind of Sin
IS SCUM:Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt
There are only 26 names on it. Do you really havenoopinion on us anymore? We're not even null? Since my ego was piqued (I'm notdull, am I?) I went back to look at your previous reads.
In post 1015, Dolorous Edd wrote:
TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan
LEANING TOWN (S->W):SnowStorm, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, Starbuck, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun
NULL:Minimum, kortul
LEANING SCUM (S->W):greenknight, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, Salamence20, Shinori
IS SCUM:Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt
No mention of our slot .
In post 940, Dolorous Edd wrote:TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:Lyanna Stark, Tyene Sand, Regfan, Benmage, Pandora, BBmolla
LEANING TOWN:Staeg, MagnaofIllusion(Alek - scum), DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Starbuck, SnowStorm, StefanB
NULL:Minimum(Alek - town), kortul, Plum's Yo Mamma, Shadow1psc(Alek - slight scum), Amrun, greenknight, Bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin
LEANING SCUM:Shinori(Alek - leaning town), Salamence20
IS SCUM:Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal
And still no mention .
Why do you not want to give a read on us? Have you just been copying and pasting your reads or something and not noticed?
(If the purpose was to hurt our feelings, mission accomplished :p).
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In post 1431, Saporerint wrote:In post 1428, Lyanna Stark wrote:I'm not seeing the evidence for him soft claiming Tyrion.
I posted the crumbs directly. Tyrion is short (a dwarf). Cersei thinks Tyrion is fated to kill her or ruin her queenship or something (can't recall details).
I also thought Stefan was (rather obviously) breadcrumbing Tyrion (hence my earlier comment about it being a strange role to claim). Zar told me it could be High Septon instead, though, so credit to him, I guess.
In post 1437, Minimum wrote:InA Clash of Kings, he made Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish townies (where town were the Starks), and Tyrion Lannister Mafia. (He also made Melisandre a fakeclaim.) But more likely,he fucking gives scum fakeclaims.So Stefan's softclaim is null at absolute best.EVERY SINGLE GAME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
I really don't like most of the votes for Stefan. Because, yeah, this. If anything, nameclaiming a character who sounds evil is a town-tell, given past games.
Even without that, though, I still think Stefan sounds (and has sounded) town.
In post 1461, bvoigt wrote:I'm Roose Bolton, Odd Night Vigilante.
Meh.UNVOTE. This is yet another claim I don't really believe, but ...
In post 1476, Minimum wrote:My gut feeling is that bvoigt is lying about his claim, but it's poor play to risk it on D1.
... right.
In post 1474, Minimum wrote:Ugh, I'm tempted to vote Sapo, but not willing to force yet another claim.
I would much prefer to vote for Sap than for Stefan, at this point. It's not so much the risk of another claim that stops me, but the lack of time.
In post 1492, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Why would you bother to confirm a Mason claim given that it would be wasting the Role-block element of your role?
Have I misunderstood how the Torturer role works? Isn't "mason" a passive ability? How could Shadow possibly confirm it?
--
Talking things over with Zar in the QT now. Will have a vote soon (if needed).
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In post 1510, Minimum wrote:Pless, your interactions with me today have kind of bugged me. It seems like you keep listing us as a top scum read, but then interacting with me as though you don't actually suspect me.
Your last few posts have been very sensible and you've said things I wanted to say before I did? That doesn't mean we don't suspect you. (Do I really have to start any sentence in which I agree with you with "Even though I think Minimum is probably scum ..."? That's tedious.)
In post 1510, Minimum wrote:(Never mind that you went from being mixed on our slot, to saying you found us scummybecause"Mina didn't do anything to assuage our suspicions of that slot, tothen defending my reaction, to then calling us a strong scumread anyway. It seems like it's come completely out of nowhere.)
Um. No? This is a pretty obviously wrong interpretation of how we've interacted this game.
We didn't suspect your slot "because" of Mina's posts. We suspected you for a while. I said that I'd read most of your slot's posts as CES so far, and that our impression might change after some later more-obviously-Mina posts. It didn't. But those Mina posts weren'twhywe suspected you. At best, they were a slight contributing factor. But it was more that Mina's posts failed to change our mind than anything else.
We also didn't "defend your reaction". We certainly didn't defend any reaction you'd had before our Post 601. After that post, you had a few more "typically town-Mina" sounding posts (I'm thinking of 641 and 643 in particular). But while noting this, we pointed out they didn't sound that convincing: "Mina's reaction to this vote is more the sort of thing we were expecting to see from a town-Mina. Would have probably been more convinced by a non-edited version of Post 641 though (assuming such a non-edited version actually existed, of course)". If you took that as a defense, sorry to disappoint you?
We stopped talking much about you when your wagon collapsedbecause you were no longer around to interact with. But just as asking Edd a lot of questions doesn't mean we think he's scum (and we don't), ignoring you doesn't mean we think you're town (and we don't). We didn't stop suspecting you -- see our (Zar's) 905, for example.
In post 1513, Dolorous Edd wrote:In post 1461, bvoigt wrote:I'm Roose Bolton, Odd Night Vigilante. Flavor says I'm the killer of Robb Stark and Warden of the North, but I still have a lot of things I need to accomplish. I'm looking for immediate glory for House Bolton. The ability name is I'm gonna leech your face.
Hi. This is a fake-claim. Please don't derp it up and believe him. Trust me.
Weren't you not going to be here? Please respond to my question.
In post 1516, SnowStorm wrote:Yeah, I'm not very convinced by that claim either... How often are there Odd/Even Night Vigs here?
It's pretty standard, according to the wiki? (I mean, it's certainly standard enough to be used in normal games.)
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In post 1516, SnowStorm wrote:So I kind of still want to lynch bvoigt, but if Shadow uses his role on him tonight, he'll know if the claim is true and he'll also block him. That could save us from lynching an innocent bvoigt or from an evil role use. I don't know who else I'd lynch though. Maybe Shinori or Feysal.
I don't understand why you (or MoI, for that matter) thinks this is the best way to go. Vig is already a provable role. We'll likely know if bvoigt is lying or not tomorrow, if he uses his kill. If Shadow blocks him, then we'll only know that Shadowclaims thatbvoigt is a Vig. And if bvoigt is a (town-aligned) Vig, we'll have missed out on a chance to shoot scum.
I really don't want to test one claim I doubt by having to rely on the word of a second player whose claim I'm also not inclined to believe.
Have you commented on Shadow's claim yet? Oh, right, no. Have you commented onanythingsince your alleged Mason partner claimed? Any thoughts on the people who were voting for him? Why has the fact you've (apparently) stopped hiding your role made youeven less talkative or helpful?
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In post 1531, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Um so a Vig is absolutely proveable if bvoigt claims a kill uncontested?
No? I don't remember using the word "absolutely". Do you thinking "claiming a kill uncontested" is the only way bvoigt can demonstrate he is a vig? Do you think Shadow claiming to have tortured bvoigt tomorrow and discovered that he is a vig will "absolutely prove" that this is true?
In post 1531, MagnaofIllusion wrote:1. How does bvoigt claiming a successful kill assure that he's a Vig as opposed to another role (such as SK or member of a Mafia group) that has killing capacity.
Obviously it doesn't. (But if there are more than the expected number of kills, it certainly suggests it.) But for that matter, how does bvoigt being a Vig ensure he's pro-town? (I mean, Storm had ascum-aligned day vig-- merely being a vig isn't proof of alignment.)
In post 1531, MagnaofIllusion wrote:2. Say that tomorrow bvoigt claims to have shot player Y and player Y is not dead. What information are we sporting from that?
Quite a lot, obviously?
In post 1531, MagnaofIllusion wrote:3. Do you think bvoigt and Shadow are scum together?
I certainly don't think it's impossible. (And of course, they don't even have to be scumtogetherfor Shadow to potentially lie about the role.)
Do you think a plan that relies on Shadow being town-aligned, not role-blocked and surviving the night is a sure-fire approach?
In post 1531, MagnaofIllusion wrote:4. We are apparently missing out on our chance to lynch scum today. Why is confirming (potentially) bvoigts' role more damaging than that?
Deliberately not lynching today is also a bad idea. (But I don't actually understand why you've asked this question - I have not compared the two ideas.)
~ Pless-
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Plessiezarus Goon
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In post 1510, Minimum wrote:The point of lynching is to narrow the suspect pool, get a flip, and use a shot to get scum.
Even though I still think Tyene is quite likely to be scumI agree with Tyene about this. Just as important as what you've listed is the chance to analyze the wagons afterwards. The unblockable vig-kill (assuming DCLXVI is even town) is not an alternative to a proper lynch.
In post 1510, Minimum wrote:Right now there is no chance that Stefan is scum.
"No chance"? Seriously? I mean, yes, I think he's probably town, butno chance?
In post 1510, Minimum wrote:If he is not lynched today, I'm willing to bet he will not be lynched for the rest of the game.
I think a lot of people are voting for Stefan for dubious, weak reasons (like "I don't want another claim") but reading 1336 hardly makes me think Regfan, for one, is going to drop this tomorrow. What has Stefan donethat he hadn't already donethat will prevent him from being lynched "for the rest of the game"?
In post 1510, Minimum wrote:We're already getting at least two flips: DC's and his vig target.
DCLXVI's vig-target won't tell us much except for who DCL suspected. And he'll be dead, as you note. So it won't tell us much of anything.
On the other hand, some people claim to suspect Stefan and some claim to think he is definitely town. If nothing else, lynching Stefan will tell us which of them are right.
~ Pless