Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[zMuffinMan]

Hello

If you haven't played in one of these before, I'd suggest familiarising yourself with the sorts of roles and abilities you'll likely see in this game. Touhou Upick 1 and Touhou Upick 2. This should at least give you a rough idea of what to expect in this game.

Also, if you have any sort of negative utility role (like the vote-sticking abilities from last game, or simply being hated or a miller or a hated-miller-gladiator), claim it in your first post.

It's probably a good idea to withhold from voting until everyone's posted just in case there is some mechanic like the vote-sticking from last game... Buuuuuttttttttttttttttt

Vote: Pieguy

I'm about 99% sure pieguy is scum in this game.

I've never shared the same alignment as him in a Touhou mafia game and I find it hard to believe that if a coin flips heads so many times in a row, it's going to suddenly flip tails the next time. That's not how probability works.

He is scum. And needs to be lynched immediately. I don't think I'll be moving my vote today... Unless he's willing to tell me who he's scum with in his first post, in which case I could see myself being lenient enough to let him live until D2. Yes, I am that nice a guy.

Also,

Multiple lynches in a Day Phase are legal if a player is able to hammer multiple wagons simultaneously.

I'm thinking double lynches are probably a good idea in this game if anyone has an ability that actually allows this. Maybe not necessarily D1, but it could be a good idea from D2 onwards (depending on what happens between now and then).

tl;dr

Help me lynch Pieguy, 4649

[zMuffinMan]

Negative-utility passives, don't care about active abilities that you can choose to use in whichever way you see fit.

[zMuffinMan]

r u scum gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

Does Gensokyo have an equivalent to the Fifth Amendment? If so, I invoke my right not to answer.

[zMuffinMan]

In all seriousness, like half the game has posted so far and we're still not close to a pieguy lynch. How many scum partners does he have? Holy shit.

[zMuffinMan]

It's not as useful D1 with the bare minimum of information, compared to potentially after N1.

Ergo, it is an idea I'm floating around for consideration down the line.

[zMuffinMan]

True story: I picked the giant catfish as my first choice, and FakeGod told me to redo my choices.

[zMuffinMan]

Serene's argument is very convincing and is making me want to bus SB.

[zMuffinMan]

I do think serene could be town though

I doubt it.

[zMuffinMan]

My answer to that depends heavily on whether you're a lie detector. Are you a lie detector?

[zMuffinMan]

Please quote (or summarise) for people too lazy to make an account there.

[zMuffinMan]

i forget, it it lily black or lily white?

both, i'd guess

[zMuffinMan]

I am what I am

[zMuffinMan]

that's racist

[zMuffinMan]

Is there a reason you're not acknowledging 49 and 65, Serene?

[zMuffinMan]

Well, I suppose you somewhat acknowledged 49, but you didn't really explain why town won't do it.

[zMuffinMan]

because and no

[zMuffinMan]

am i

[zMuffinMan]

you're talking in the same way you did in our previous games

how is it the same

why is gaiden town

[zMuffinMan]

we should d1 massclaim imo... set-up has wacky roles and no ITP and wasn't checked so it would probably break the game

i sincerely doubt the game could be broken via mass-claim (even if it wasn't reviewed, which i'm not 100% sure is the case)

that said, i have an idea of what the setup is going to look like here, so it wouldn't particularly bother me if a mass-claim occurred either today or tomorrow

[zMuffinMan]

what are your thoughts on the game?

You guys like a nice bunch of people and I like FakeGod as a mod.

you seem to suspect me based on #48 but your vote hasn't moved since your first post

That is correct and you are very observant.

If I ever feel like it's necessary to move my vote, I will.

[zMuffinMan]

I can't tell you, yet. Just pretend I have a really deep reason for being cryptic right now.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm usually partial to explaining things. Just not this early on in this particular game.

Though seeing as you're unwilling to talk about your Shadoweh vote, I don't really think you have any ground to stand on, criticising someone else for withholding something.

[zMuffinMan]

I want us to massclaim today whether each of us is going to use a spellcard tonight. it doesn't have to be right now, just anytime, and it only needs to be today. this is for *reasons* that I probably will not elaborate on unless it is convenient for me.

my spellcards are absolute horse shit but i'll probably use one tonight for shits and giggles

fakegod seems to take pleasure in giving me useless troll abilities in all his games

[zMuffinMan]

why are you asking me that if youre town?

[zMuffinMan]

Can someone give me the list of people who have played together on another site?

[zMuffinMan]

full list would be more helpful!

[zMuffinMan]

Also i'm currently thinking of what would be the most effective way to use my votes, just to seal spellcards or to vote, but then if you guys need a 2x hammer that'd be a problem.

Unless there are multiple multi-voters, a theoretical 2x hammer could only occur with everyone but you on two separate wagons with you off both of them (and only at odd numbers unless one of the wagons is hated). So theoretically, if we were using your votes for the purpose of multi-hammering, you would keep your votes off the main wagons.

[zMuffinMan]

town: zmuffin

What have I done in this game that I wouldn't do (or am less likely to do) as scum?

I wouldn't expect that kind of role interaction to be on most people's radars right at the start of the game; and even if it was, I think it's smth a town player would be more likely to be vocal about than a scum player (especially at the start of the game when they have nothing else to go on).

This is a really poor line of thinking. I mean, apart from the fact that it was in direct response to something I said, being open about negative utility stuff is a relatively easy way for scum to appear open and look vaguely town~ish in some people's eyes.

[zMuffinMan]

Just checking whether a person of interest to me was among those names.

[zMuffinMan]

I imagine neither do you

false, btw

i asked for a very specific reason that had almost everything to do with meta. it's not important right now, though.

[zMuffinMan]

Neighborhood constituency can't possibly carry alignment-indicative information, sakura.

this is true, btw. fakegod randomises alignments before assigning roles (unless he's changed his methodology or i'm remembering incorrectly), and would almost certainly assign the same neighbourhoods regardless of who's scum

so the likelihood that any neighbourhood/s contain scum is the likelihood they would via random chance.

can you walk me through why you think Serenes is scum?

he reminds me of you in the first touhou upick, actually. specifically for the traits that nati pointed out to me in that game. though i'd have liked to see more content from him before he disappeared today, but oh well.

[zMuffinMan]

i have a gut town read on relentless

[zMuffinMan]

iirc most of what Nati said about me that game was that my scum reads were forced, correct?

no it was more about trying too hard at the beginning of the game, the forced reads and votes stuff came later (though that, too, is partially why i found the shadoweh vote odd - like he didn't quite know what to do with his vote after "changing" his read on SB)

[zMuffinMan]

there was a lol RVS wagon going on Shadoweh at that point in the game, so I don't find it too out of the ordinary

Except "RVS" is clearly not why he voted Shadoweh. This is clearly evident by the fact he alluded to achieving something with his Shadoweh vote that had not yet been achieved because Shadoweh hadn't posted.

So what we have here is Serene voting SB for reasons that were pretty weak (granted, it was early times, but relative to how big a deal he was making out of it, the reasoning was rather weak). What I see here is someone attempting to look like they give more of a shit than they actually should at this point (which I've summarised as "trying too hard"). It's not that town can't ever try hard, but the way in which it came across with what was going on in the game at the time (a relatively light, joking atmosphere), it came across as really forced. You could argue that he wouldn't do this as scum because it would make him look bad, but I think that's rather silly. First, it's confusing what actually happened with what he thought would happen. Second, it's assuming he had the foresight to know he'd come across looking bad to the playerlist as a result (I've heard someone argue he would have known this because he's done it twice as town in the early stages of previous games and looked bad as a result, but this leads me to...). Third, it's assuming this wasn't done specifically for meta reasons (or because people who have played with him would expect something similar out of him as town).

I think more important than what was actually said was how it went down, though. It was a rather weak argument that was played up like it was stronger than it was, and it was almost immediately backed down from. And it was immediately followed by a relatively meaningless vote by comparison (Why go from attacking someone who has posted for what he apparently perceived to be valid reasoning to voting someone who hadn't posted? Why not pursue another active player?) which I took as him not really knowing where to go after backing down from SB. I'm interested in seeing what sort of reasoning he supposedly had for his Shadoweh vote.

Like I said in some other post I wrote, I would have liked to have seen more content from him before he disappeared today to flesh this out a little more, but most of the stuff he was writing was in defense of the SB vote (which I don't believe has been particularly well-justified) rather than elaborating on why he backed down (he talked a little about thinking SB was town because SB-scum is more careful or something, but meh... Why was it a good reason to vote in the first place if he already knows this?), why he's voting Shadoweh, and any other thoughts he may or may not have.

[zMuffinMan]

you seem to know most people in this game and have opinions, tell me the alignments of notscience, Sakura Hana & GuyInFreezer and !!explain why!! ( <- important) bc when people's posts are about obscure meta between each other I just glaze over them

I actually haven't formed a read on any of these players yet. I might have mentioned them if I had. I am having a far easier time forming reads on players I haven't played with before than players I have in this game.

I don't expect I'm going to form a solid read on any of them early on in this game. As someone else mentioned, notscience is the kind of player who can feign the enthusiasm he usually has in his town game for a while, but the longer the game goes, the harder it seems to be for him to keep up the act. Neither GIF or Sakura have produced any content worth reading so far, tbh. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, though.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't really agree with the suspicion of SP or relentless.

I don't have any particularly strong feelings about SP being town, but nothing he's done looks scummy to me. I don't understand what people thought was wrong with his vote on Serene. The logic is sound. Serene's initial vote on SB should never have happened if Serene's reasoning for backing off is to be believed (SB is town because he wouldn't be this "reckless" as scum; so why did Serene suspect SB in the first place?) and while SP's content hasn't been the a shining paragon of towniness, I don't really have any issues with what he's said or done thus far.

As for relentless, I think he's copping a lot more flak for 76 than is actually warranted. It's not a great post, I don't see how it's all that scummy, though. I think he's more likely to be town than scum, though I'm not particularly interested in fleshing this out at this point in time.

On the other hand, I still haven't seen anything from pieguy that has particularly wowed me. He's written the most words in the game so far (I think?) but a lot of it feels rather empty and/or weak. Granted, early days, but it somewhat feels like pieguy is making more of an effort to appear town than actually producing town-motivated content.

[zMuffinMan]

I know you haven't done anything yet. That was actually my point.

[zMuffinMan]

town!Shadoweh shrugging it off nonchalantly and scum!Shadoweh being more likely to show some sort of annoyance when trying to shrug it off because it brings unwanted attention to herself

Is this based on some sort of history with Shadoweh actually reacting like this as either alignment to RVS wagons?

Because I don't think (especially in a game where it's ten to lynch D1) anyone in the history of ever has been annoyed at a few RVS votes, particularly when it's obviously a joke of sorts.

saying SB was reckless when posting about bussing doesn't make sense, it could only be reckless if he was self-conscious about it and did it anyway, and he isn't self-conscious at all

I don't really follow this. You know that this is something he apparently does as either alignment (or so you've said) on his home site. You think he wouldn't do it on another site he's unfamiliar with. This would imply he is self-conscious about it, at least enough to know this is a thing he does that isn't acceptable elsewhere.

Also, I still don't really understand why you thought it couldn't come from a town mindset. I know you've mentioned being unfamiliar with a lot of the players (which clearly isn't true if half the playerlist comes from the same home site and, really, I often do inside jokes where I expect only a couple of people will understand the reference, so how many people will or won't get it seems irrelevant) but even if that were the case, so what? It was clearly a played-up joke based on my super-strong case on pieguy that most people ignored because they're awful at mafia and can't see undeniable logic when it's staring them in the face. And the fact that it was so obviously a joke is a lot of the reason your whole push on him bothered me. I mean... he could be scum, but even if he is, I sincerely doubt that was something that he wouldn't have written as town.

Also, I just think it was a silly point to get worked up about in general. Meh.

I keep looking back at the way you attacked him and the way you suddenly backed off, and it still looks off to me. But I'm not particularly interested in talking about this any further than I already have since I doubt there's anything you can say here that's going to make me think otherwise. So, meh.

Who exactly do you think is scum right now? I've read the entirety of your recent posts twice now and the closest I've seen you come to calling someone scummy is suggesting you would vote thd but you need GIF's approval for that.

[zMuffinMan]

also Sakura is probably scum

Why are you voting Rylai over Sakura?

Does sakura scum make sense given your negative utility aspect? (Yes/No/Irrelevant)

Why are you asking pieguy this? (Or rather, how would pieguy's thoughts on this matter compared to your own?)

But what actually happened is nothing. He had zero votes/people attacking him when he already backed down, it's not like he started the push not knowing it would make him look bad, and backed down after it happened, since he didn't expect that. He started getting heat because of the way he suddenly changed his mind, backed off and jumped on an other wagon.

My thoughts on this are basically (assuming he is scum): He started the attack thinking it would be a good way to come across like he was "scum hunting", didn't realise how forced it actually looked, starting realising he had no ground to stand on after a few posts and needed to back off somehow, did it in a really awkward way that he didn't realise was so awkward, and then was stuck not knowing what to do so threw his vote on Shadoweh so it looked like he was still doing something productive.

The alternative here is that he's town and thought he was legitimately onto something, despite it making almost zero sense (at least imo) and then backed down really quickly because his scum read had changed into a town read over the course of a couple posts, and voted Shadoweh for pressure reasons.

*shrug*

I think the former seems more likely. I think (if he is scum) he started the attack not realising how weak and awful-looking it actually was.

Why are you commenting on this in particular, though? Do you think Serene is town? How much of the game have you read?

I think he has a point on SF.

What do you think of Serene's recent posts?

[zMuffinMan]

remind me who you think is scum

[zMuffinMan]

It says in the rules there's no day chat.

[zMuffinMan]

Rylai's reads list (282) feels like he's just BS'ing reads, and there's no indication at all that he's trying to legitimately game solve so far. do you disagree?

no

[zMuffinMan]

in your original post I quoted it looked like you were making the point that he didn't know he'd look bad for the push, and had to back down when it happened

No, I was making the point that the argument someone had made at some point (maybe SB?) was that Serene wouldn't have done it in the first place as scum because it would make him look bad. I don't think that is the case.

In fact, what you quoted was in direct response to that and I don't think it was particularly ambiguous what I was referring to, either. *shrug*

I'm still interested in why you chose that of all things going on in the thread to make a response to. There may be a lot of meta-stuff and whatnot, but there's still plenty of other things you could choose to respond to.

For example, do you have no thoughts on relentless, SP and the wagons that have built up on them?

Do you have any reads at all?

[zMuffinMan]

It's not so much that you picked something I wrote (I would probably be asking the same question regardless of whose quote it was, though I would have less interest in talking about the actual content if it were someone else's quote). I want to know why, out of all the things you could be giving your thoughts on in the game, you chose to specifically comment on my thoughts on Serene. And why you're not commenting on anything else, despite apparently at least having thoughts on them.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, you did make an off-hand comment about Rylai's last post as well, so I guess it's not far to say you're not commenting on

anything

else, even if that comment was rather lacking in any real substance.

[zMuffinMan]

mr dan

are you still reading or are you done at 7 pages? is it because 7 is a magical number and you're superstitious about it? or is it because reading any more than 7 pages in a day can potentially cause irreversible damage?

[zMuffinMan]

if you think pieguyn is a better vote than Serenes than why are you putting so much more effort into convincing people to go after Serenes?

deep reasons

what are your thoughts on his Sky_Paladin vote?

it was weak (and no different to the several other weak justifications i've seen for voting sp)

[zMuffinMan]

Are you on board with me to super vote and double-hammer two people today?

I would prefer this didn't happen today, unless there's a popular desire to see two players in particular lynched. In another game, I might not care as much, but in a role madness game, I'd prefer not doing this until at least D2.

I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

What specifically was over-the-top about it? I didn't really agree with the point pieguy was making about singling out GIF, but I didn't feel it was over-the-top and I'm not seeing how this, out of all the things you could point out in pieguy's play, as scummy.

I actually agree with Drezi's overall assessment, although I don't endorse every single one of his points.

Heh. While I think Rylai is quite possibly scum (or at least has not done anything that looks town), I don't think Drezi's points are all that strong. In general, I'm not a fan of picking apart little things and trying to make them appear scummy (like the AD comment) and the only real comment Drezi wrote that I could potentially agree with is the last one (though I can also imagine a perfectly valid explanation for it).

I don't get where the town reads on thds are coming from

He seems townish. *shrug*


Anyway, I probably won't be around as much over the weekend.

[zMuffinMan]

A key difference would be that rylai has content and a vote i like

Also, this has been bothering me, since (as of page 7), this can only be referring to:

Vote Sky Palladium

Swift as the wolves of Icewrack! No, he's trying to be try hard while sitting in the back burner LYNCH THE SCUM

Apparently this counts as content.

Enough to warrant a town read.

Also would like to see AD flesh out the rest of his reads when (

read: if

) he catches up.

[zMuffinMan]

he was seeing basically what I saw (wrt the 1st/4th points)

You do realise the first point (and part of the second point) are almost entirely identical to the whole "why are you only mentioning GIF?!?!?!?" thing, right?

[zMuffinMan]

it looked like he believed it

Ignoring the possibility he could be scum with Rylai (ergo, not just believing it, but knowing it), I don't see really see this or how it makes him look town. (Not to mention he was setting up for that vote for since his previous post, which is part of why I think it sounds a little forced, e.g. the AD point)

[zMuffinMan]

stuff

I think you're reading too deeply into Drezi's post and seeing what you want to see, even though it's not actually there. And you're ascribing a town feeling to it because it agrees with your own conclusion about Rylai. But, honestly, it's all surface-scratching superficial stuff at best, and I don't really see a distinctively town thought process in it. Like Kilgy mentioned, Rylai isn't exactly the hardest target to go after either.

*shrug*

In short, it is the kind of post I could very easily see scum making and I think you're calling it town because it agrees with your read on Rylai.

If I were to force a lynch through on someone right now, it would be Drezi. Though I'm not really in the mood to do this right now.

[zMuffinMan]

Looks like you decided I was scum some time ago and you're just pushing suspicion here and there while parking your vote on pie

Yes. Though not through any fault of your own, I've been assuming you're scum since before role PMs were even distributed (though I have no intention of really elaborating on why at this point in time). But I've also been attempting to see a town point of view in your posts, and giving you the benefit of the doubt that the conclusion I came to could actually be wrong. I'm looking at your posts as objectively as possible, and not seeing any town motivation in the way you've approached this game.

keeping your options open

Other than the fact that nothing you quoted is actually me "keeping my options open" (in fact, both posts share the exact same sentiment), I've been quite clear on who I'm suspicious of for the most part (other than the suspicion of you, which I've been hinting at for a while, but haven't outright stated until just now).

All you're doing here is assuming a poisition of power and sending a message not only to me but everyone trying to oppose you in the future

Well I was both figuratively and literally saying I could force your lynch if I wanted to. Figuratively, because I'm confident I could get you lynched if I were to really pursue it. Literally, because I have a spell-card that would almost guarantee your lynch if I wanted to use it. Though I would prefer not using it because it's rather selfish, I've been considering using it just to show that I had it at my disposal and wasted it D1 instead of saving it for, say, a lylo situation.

Also, this attitude is fairly standard for me (especially when I'm town), so the confidence you're perceiving here is more of a personality trait than an alignment trait, for what it's worth. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

I don't really agree with much of Sky's wall, but I don't have a problem with where it's coming from.

Problem Slots

What does this actually mean?

I think he's way too hard on Serene, which is a lot of his content and doesn't like Rylai much

*shrug*

I don't think I've been that harsh on Serene, actually. I think I've been rather fair in my assessment, to be honest. If Serene's explanations weren't so full of inconsistencies (or things I perceive to be inconsistencies), I wouldn't have as much of an issue with him.

As for Rylai, meh. I don't like his content. It isn't necessarily coming from scum, but it doesn't look town.

I like Drezi!

y

he has some very good and valid points about SB and SF

What did you actually agree with?

[zMuffinMan]

Yes. I don't really see what's difficult to grasp about what thoughts there or why you think that counts as "keeping options open".

It would be like saying Sky is keeping his options open because he thinks both SB and Serene are scum, or really any other player in the game keeping their options open because they think two people are scum. That's not how keeping your options open works.

[zMuffinMan]

not really, though you can keep asserting that's the case all you want, i guess

[zMuffinMan]

since you're around now anyway, can you talk about your reads and thoughts on the game outside of the 5 or so people you've mentioned in your posts this game?

like, i dunno, do you have a read on pieguy or sakura or relentless or sky or SB or anyone outside of rylai and apparently me now.

[zMuffinMan]

Nope, I'll continue to post as I see fit.

Are you an alt or have you played on a site other than mafiascum before? If the latter, can you link me to some of your town and scum games?

[zMuffinMan]

The problem is I don't have any basis for comparison to be absolutely certain that the way you're playing is more likely to come from you as scum, but everything you're doing feels really mechanical - like you're just picking things out and commenting on them in a perfunctory way because you're not actually interested in figuring out anyone's alignment, you're just interested in pushing an agenda and trying to appear like you're providing content here and there.

I think you're scum and nothing you're saying is changing my mind.

Vote: Drezi

[zMuffinMan]

I don't like this.

go on...

[zMuffinMan]

I wasn't expanding the question, I was pointing out why I asked.

I'm no seeing what you think I "bypassed". Are you saying you think there's some sort of contradiction in what I wrote?

[zMuffinMan]

You started by posting things to try to figure him out, then immediately after posted in a way that looks like you were already making your mind up

I had an exchange with him that ended with him refusing to talk about his reads. The question I asked him was specifically because he was around and I wanted to see how genuine he could be in his thoughts without time to manufacture a response, but he shrugged it off. I'd already made up my mind that he was scum at this point (and I think he shrugged it off because he does need time to manufacture his reads, and potentially also because he didn't want to possibly hinder his scum mates by giving rushed fake reads that could implicate them). I then asked for meta because I want to make sure that what I'm seeing as scummy in his posts isn't a playstyle thing. I then read over his ISO once more and posted what I posted with a vote.

[zMuffinMan]

I clearly told him I wouldn't force any reads that are still shaping up

Just to be clear... You're telling me that you don't actually have any other reads or thoughts, and this is why you aren't giving them?

waiting for further developments before deciding on a vote is something that's scummy only when done by me

That's not what I meant at all, though. I was explaining that the reason you added stuff that made it sound forced is because you were setting up for it. The AD point you brought up in particular felt like you were trying to mold the information to fit the conclusion (that you had been setting up for). The way I see it, you were waiting to see whether you could feasibly make a case out of Rylai's next post, and then you attempted to make everything he said look scummy. Which comes across as forcing the issue, rather than analysing the information before you.

I suppose you could argue that I have been doing the same, though you'd have to justify exactly where you think I'm forcing my reads.

[zMuffinMan]

I clearly told him I wouldn't force any reads that are still shaping up

Also this isn't actually what you said at all, and I just realised you never actually responded to what I said after that in 347

Ok i just went over Madoka and Medical Mafia again just to be sure, but Drezi's town.

Link

[zMuffinMan]

Skimming through those osu games, I don't see how you concluded he's town. Talk about it a bit, please.

[zMuffinMan]

Medical Mafia he seems way more passive, posts less, Madoka he looked more aggresive, posts more often (tho maybe that's biased since i was scum and he was onto me but w/e), it seems that he's treating you the same way he did to me on Madoka.

I think your meta assessment is incredibly weak.

Some differences I'm noticing in that town game, for example... He was more open and willing to give reads and talk about them. The comments he made were more relevant to assessing alignment. The cases he was making had more substance than mere nitpicking. The entire tone of his posts was different.

Just as a quick example, compare his first posts in that Madoka game with any of his posts here:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3372952
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3374660

I'm not going to claim to be a master of analysing meta, but what I was looking for in his town game was similarities to his play here, and I don't see it at all.

[zMuffinMan]

whereas in his scum game he spent a lot of time just sitting around not making many waves in the game

What "waves" do you think he'd have made this game, if not for my interaction with him forcing him to respond to something? A vote on Rylai that isn't exactly going against the grain?

[zMuffinMan]

what I'm seeing in Rylai's play

Oh, come on. A blind monkey could write a case against Rylai

[zMuffinMan]

I'm going to guess you mean something other than his very first post, unless you're referring to what appears to be a RVS vote?

[zMuffinMan]

his scum game had even _less_ than this. if you look through his ISO in the medical game Sakura linked, this is, quite literally, the only push he made that was based on logic as opposed to setup-related stuff.

I don't particularly care about that scum game since, from almost the very beginning, a lot of the discussion was based around the mechanics and usage of roles. It's not exactly a good basis for comparison. But what I do notice in that game is a lot of IIoA, and that is precisely what his posts in this game contain outside of the Rylai post (and recent posts in direct response to me). Though, rather than setup speculation IIoA, it's random commenting on stuff that isn't actually alignment-indicative IIoA (which, honestly, I think is worse than setup spec as a form of IIoA but whatever).

Do I have to break down every post he's made and walk you through them step by fucking step? How are you not seeing this?

Unless your argument is that this game is different because he made a case on fruit so low-hanging they had to dig a fucking 10-metre hole in the ground so it wouldn't actually touch the ground, therefore he's not the same as he was as scum and must be town.

In which case, I have nothing else to discuss with you.

what he's pushing Rylai over at least makes sense

Yes, because it is virtually impossible not to be able to make a case against Rylai. Even if you're saying, "oh but he saw the same thing I did!" this first of all assumes that scum can never do this (and believe me, I've won many games by convincing players like ffery that I've seen the same things she did before she made a comment about them), and second of all assumes that something like this for the content Rylai produced is even difficult to do.

Like, regardless of his alignment, anyone could have written the same things he wrote about Rylai. You aren't a special snowflake because you noticed certain things were off about Rylai's post.

given that kind of attitude, I would hazard a guess that he's the kind of player who would go out of his way to not antagonize anyone as scum. which even if you explicitly pulled him into interacting with you, is the opposite of what he did with you.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, but I'm going to assume it has no bearing on anything that's actually happened here. I'm assuming you're also suggesting that he wouldn't argue against someone who thinks he's scum as scum, which is a very sensible stance to take!

he's taken at least a stance on SP earlier.

Yes, ignoring the fact that you think it's an awful stance to take, he did make an off-hand comment about how SP's wall gave him a "town feeling". Wow, sorry Drezi. No need to give the rest of your reads, I already have all the content I need. You're definitely town with that wealth of information.

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler: PIEGUY, I WAS WRONG AND BEG FORGIVENESS

You could argue that he wouldn't do this [referencing the forced "trying too hard" part] as scum because it would make him look bad, but I think that's rather silly. First, it's confusing what actually happened with what he thought would happen. Second, it's assuming he had the foresight to know he'd come across looking bad to the playerlist as a result

But what actually happened is nothing. He had zero votes/people attacking him when he already backed down, it's not like he started the push not knowing it would make him look bad, and backed down after it happened, since he didn't expect that. He started getting heat because of the way he suddenly changed his mind, backed off and jumped on an other wagon.

All in all to me it looks like he thought he was onto something and decided to put it to use to move the game forward from fluff RVS fooling around (which I think is good), but realized he was wrong soon after so he backed down and proceeded with the same mindset trying to get reads and reactions with the wagonbuilding. I don't see the apparent contradiction between his reason for voting SB, and backing down.

also I just realized I townslipped earlier but I am gonna let somebody else point it out cuz otherwise nobody will take it seriously ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

you just pointed out the fact that you think it's there which kinda defeats the purpose of an "unaware" townslip being noticed by someone else.

PEDIT: oh wow a whole page just happened in the meantime.

Tell me what content you see in this post? Where are these waves he's creating? Where are these pointed questions he's asking 12 pages into the game?

My thoughts on this are basically (assuming he is scum): He started the attack thinking it would be a good way to come across like he was "scum hunting", didn't realise how forced it actually looked, starting realising he had no ground to stand on after a few posts and needed to back off somehow, did it in a really awkward way that he didn't realise was so awkward, and then was stuck not knowing what to do so threw his vote on Shadoweh so it looked like he was still doing something productive.

Well that's a possible scenario of coruse, it's that in your original post I quoted it looked like you were making the point that he didn't know he'd look bad for the push, and had to back down when it happened, and that looked off as there have been no visible signs of that from others at that point.

It's not so much that I'm townreading him, as much as I don't think he's scum for doing that. Other than this Serenes stuff there has been lots of this half jokingly giving out town/scumreads stuff, meta reading each other or referencing past games and I can't do much regarding that.

I kinda agree about Rylai's post, he did say it was 4 AM and was going to sleep though, not sure about that as an excuse for it, we'll see how he follows it up I guess.

SO MANY POINTED QUESTIONS, IT'S HARD TO KEEP TRACK OF THEM ALL.

Oh, and a non-committal comment about Rylai. The town-posting is strong in this one!

No, I was making the point that the argument someone had made at some point (maybe SB?) was that Serene wouldn't have done it in the first place as scum because it would make him look bad. I don't think that is the case.

In fact, what you quoted was in direct response to that and I don't think it was particularly ambiguous what I was referring to, either. *shrug*

I'm still interested in why you chose that of all things going on in the thread to make a response to. There may be a lot of meta-stuff and whatnot, but there's still plenty of other things you could choose to respond to.

Why are you so concerned with me picking on something you wrote? You're misunderstanding me anyway, it's the order of events I was referring to as in making a push -> looking bad -> backing down vs making a push -> backing down -> looking bad due to this. I decided to address this that's that.

For example, do you have no thoughts on relentless, SP and the wagons that have built up on them?

Do you have any reads at all?

Thoughts obviously, as for reads leaning either way I've yet to decide on that, and I won't tryhard it either until I do.

Is this an example of the pointed questions you think he's asking pieguy? A single question to me in direct response to me asking him about something?

Should I feel poked by his very pointy question, pieguy?

VOTE: Rylai

So we have more of this quick thoughts before sleep again.

Anka: Literally forgot existed, some reads would be nice

Notscience: Actually I have no idea what his reads are completely, at least GIF provides something if not much of anything, and I think I'll stick my vote here while waiting for stuff

Seems like you picked people off the top of your head to ask for reads, also as for notsci "I have no idea what his reads are

completely

" while that could be said for a bunch of other players just as easily.

GIF: If you say you only townread, then I could let that slide for now. And not for long.

It looks pretty hypocritical (and as an attempt at appearing to be on top of things) to address GIF with that threatening "I could let that slide for now" tone, while you yourself haven't been doing much.
Still you call out Anka saying "you even forgot they existed" (what about me or Gaiden for example for that matter?). What makes the lack of reads from notscience different than the rest you didn't even mention, so that it makes you vote him for?

Actiondan: Cool with since he's actually posting (I also like what he's posting so)

He gave you an early townread, and you like his posts well, ok.

Thdgk: Updated reads on Serene and anybody else you think might be scum would be nice

And this feels just as random, like Lily has been focusing on burning down the forest in most of their posts, latest ones included, and even voiced who else might be scum according to them in 253 278 and 280 so ???

I shouldn't need to go over this yet again, but so many scum hunting, guess this can't be scum.

Who else but a town player could have come up with such a rock-solid argument that completely goes against the common consensus that Rylai's posts were a beacon of towniness?

Oh my god. No one is going to read that.

Can you sum it up for me? I'm not reading it either.

I didn't read SkyP's post! though skimming it it seems like moonlogic was employed!

I'm kind of baffled by this attitude. I'd understand it if it was Sky walling constantly failing to compress his thoughts and by the third or at least second wall he ends up like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and you just sigh and skip/skim his content. That is not the case here however and some people like pie have written a lot more words so far, and you have no problem reading that apparently. Is the fact that for Sky it's under a single post such a concern?



All in all I'm getting a townie feel out of Sky's post, also I like how he went to check plenty of games for the validity of SB's casual claims.

Points I could find issue with:

Some of the "Why -> because you are scum" conclusions when put that way feel like outright disregarding other possible explanations.

"Why are you confused about why you voted?" -> Because you are scum.

Here I don't even get where the "pie is confused about why they voted" comes from.

I don't like Sky_Paladin's push on Serenes very much ... the point about being "reckless" is more of a straw man than an actual point.

I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning

This looks quite consistent to me.

That is why it was, frankly, bizarre that Rylai/Kilga/Pie were voting me for challenging Serene, and argued semantics over reckless-or-not-reckless. It was always about "Why did you change your vote?"

I like semantics, and usually I find it to be a valid point, since if you take it lightly it's very easy to (even unintentionally) strawman someone, or get strawmanned yourself. However in this particular case the explanation of inquiring for a more elaborate answer to "why did you change for vote" being the main focus makes sense, regardless of the reckless thing.

Also we can't check the games from SM without registering, but I don't think he'd fake that, as it's quite easy to check. I did not register to do so though, could an other SM player verify the references perhaps?

I CAN JUST FEEL THE POINTINESS, PIEGUY.

SO MANY POINTY QUESTIONS.

SO MUCH CONTENT. CAN YOU SEE HOW HE ASKED ALL THOSE PLAYERS WHAT THEY WERE DOING? I CAN FEEL THE SCUM HUNTING INTENT.

I like the analysis brought up by SP, But one thing that i don't get is if SP thinks both SF and SB are scum

Meh, it's been brought up before but this SP SB SF is making things harder to read unnecesarily, could we perhaps stick to Serene/Forest, SB and Sky or something along these lines?

SO MUCH TOWN CONTENT. IT'S ALMOST BLINDING.

I'VE SEEN THE ERROR OF MY WAYS, PIEGUY. YOU WERE RIGHT. TOWNIEST FUCKING ISO I'VE EVER READ.

[zMuffinMan]

muffin, can you tell me your thoughts on SkyPal, Relentless, SB and Serenes?

More likely town than scum, probably town, haven't seen enough content, haven't liked any of his content (his recent stuff hasn't changed my opinion on him, really)

I've talked about all of these except for SB, fwiw, who I'm leaving to the side because nothing he's written has swayed me either way on him yet.

[zMuffinMan]

I mean, re:Serene. I didn't mind 499 as a post, it just didn't strike me as particularly town-looking. Mostly because it was obviously formulated and carefully considered, so it doesn't strike me as something scum couldn't write. I don't really agree with the Kagami suspicion (especially the part about explaining after voting, because meh... It's honestly not that difficult to include the reasons when you vote if you really want to, so I don't understand how this is even a point). Kagami's virtually null for me so far.

I don't have that much of an issue with his suspicion of you, I guess, in that I could potentially see him-as-town thinking your play is bad (and scummy), but the reasoning here isn't particularly hard to fake if he wanted to as scum.

[zMuffinMan]

You and I have very different ideas about what constitutes content, I guess. Granted, it could be argued that suggesting an argument isn't valid counts as content, I guess, but I don't see assessing the validity of an argument as a form of scum hunting so I don't really count it as content by itself.

[zMuffinMan]

@AD, also I don't believe that he was the first one to voice that opinion (if it even matters who was first). For example, a lot of the case against Sky at the time was based on the logic in that second paragraph being apparently invalid.

It's cool that you like IIoA as much as you apparently do, Muffin, because just glancing at Kagami's ISO should provide you with enough to last you for a couple of years!

I don't think you quite understand what IIoA implies. It implies more talk about stuff that isn't related to scum hunting than actual scum hunting. I did just glance at Kagami's ISO, and while there is talk about setup related stuff (which I'd expect from Kagami because that's the kind of player Kagami is), the ISO isn't dominated by a lack of scum hunting material.

[zMuffinMan]

I can actually see a town player thinking most of these things and thinking they make sense

There is literally no scum hunting in those posts. Literally. None. Suggesting an argument is invalid is not a form of scum hunting (especially when you go on to say you don't even have a read on said player). Outside of the Rylai case, he's asked a grand total of like 1 question this whole game. 1 whole question. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. And offered like two opinions outside of his back-and-forth with me (one of those being the Rylai suspicion and the other being a town feeling about Sky's wall).

You're right. I can argue that they aren't difficult posts to make as scum. Because they aren't.

There's no scum hunting so calling it genuine is like, what the fuck? How can you not be genuine in posts void of anything resembling an opinion, pieguy? Is that even possible?

what I'm saying is: Drezi's scum game featured a complete lack of anything controversial whatsoever. even accounting for the fact they spent a lot of time talking about the setup, there were a fuckton of neutral posts. and when we did get a post that wasn't neutral, it was weak as fuck and still wasn't overly controversial/antagonistic.

So... Exactly what happened in this game before I started calling him scum?

Like, yay, he called someone scum (he had to eventually). If this is all the evidence you're using to suggest this is unlike his scum game, then that's laughable. Do you honestly think if he rolled scum, he'd go through the entire game not calling anyone scum? Or are you saying that his suspicion of Rylai, fruit so low it could actually be a potato that's been mistaken for a fruit, was somehow controversial?

that doesn't strike you as a firm stance?

No. It strikes me as someone realising they're being suspected. Duh.

Oh I do, and setupspec and modmeta shenanigans don't constitute scumhunting in any scenario where there are yet any night results to go by.

What point are you trying to make here?

You literally quoted the definition according to the wiki. Tell me how that applies here.

[zMuffinMan]

Do I have to also quote his entire "push" on me?

Spoiler:

and seeing what you want to see

That's quite ironic for you to say when it's exactly what you're doing. Looks like you decided I was scum some time ago and you're just pushing suspicion here and there while parking your vote on pie, and simply labeling everything I do as "something you could see scum doing" superficial etc. while keeping your options open with stuff like:

While I think Rylai is quite possibly scum (or at least has not done anything that looks town), I don't think Drezi's points are all that strong.

Ignoring the possibility he could be scum with Rylai

---

Though I'm not really in the mood to do this [force a lynch] right now.

How generous of you. All you're doing here is assuming a poisition of power and sending a message not only to me but everyone trying to oppose you in the future.

I'm not liking the muffin one bit so far.

All he's literally saying here is that I shouldn't be suspecting him because semantics that make no sense and he isn't even brave enough to take a proper stance on me being scum.

The next couple posts he makes are responses to me pointing out he had no ground to stand on.

The question I asked him was specifically because he was around and I wanted to see how genuine he could be in his thoughts without time to manufacture a response ... and I think he shrugged it off because he does need time to manufacture his reads

Oh no, this is being so disingenuous.

We've already had a

very

similar exchange in 342 & 346, and I clearly told him I wouldn't force any reads that are still shaping up, yet he once again pushed that question, only to use it to further his case on me.

I think you're scum and nothing you're saying is changing my mind.

Vote: Drezi

Yeah, the wolf has been going around me in circles of a while, and now is jumping at my throat at last, but for some reason that's ok for him to do, while he's holding this against me:

(Not to mention he was setting up for that vote for since his previous post, which is part of why I think it sounds a little forced

I clearly said that I'd wait and see in 341, I guess waiting for further developments before deciding on a vote is something that's scummy only when done by me.

I don't feel my vote is in a wrong place atm, but definitely

FoS muffin

.

He calls me disingenuous. And talks about how I'm going after him. And then FoSes me but clarifies he thinks I could be town but I also could be scum.

Wow.

Such a firm stance, pieguy. So. Firm.

Really. Where in these posts do you see something that couldn't come from scum? Where?

He's only confronting me because I'm getting louder about my suspicion of him. Have you ever heard of an uncommon, not-so-well-known term called "OMGUS"?

[zMuffinMan]

Hey Gaiden, nice to see you contributing. See you again tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

No, it's not frequently engaging in setup spec, it's when your play is dominated by a lack of scum hunting in favour of stuff like setup spec.

Even if you disregard the fact that Kagami is the sort of player who likes setup spec in general, Kagami's ISO isn't dominated by it. Do you want me to break down Kagami's ISO, too, or are you going to keep asserting that Kagami isn't scum hunting because lol-there's-some-setup-spec-in-there!

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy

gaiden has done more scum hunting than Drezi

think about that

gaiden
has
done
more
scum
hunting

[zMuffinMan]

youve given opinions on more players and asked more questions

youve done more scum hunting by default

[zMuffinMan]

as a specific example, with his post to SP

The fact that he supposedly read Sky's wall, yet hasn't been able to form an opinion on the rest of the content in this game, doesn't strike you as odd in any way?

No, because he broke down some things he didn't like about a post, some things that aren't informative in any way except to show that he can break down a post and not provide any opinions.

OK.

[zMuffinMan]

I mean, yay, it shows that he can break down a post and point out things that aren't necessarily 100% correct. Such a town mindset. Oh my god. I've never seen scum do that before.

I mean, other than like every time I've ever played scum or seen someone play scum.

But yeah, other than that, I've never seen scum do that.

[zMuffinMan]

No he's calling my posts GreyIce posts and saying I'm not being kind to my fellow players. Or something.

[zMuffinMan]

Go read your own ISO in, say, Serum and Steel (or even any of your older games, like, I dunno, the first touhou upick) and tell me whether it's a town ISO, pieguy

Breaking down postss and giving opinions on them without providing actual content isn't difficult to do.

I am still a bit curious why you think scum-Drezi would have just entirely ignored you saying you had a card that would ensure he gets lynched.

Other than the fact it's entirely possible he missed what I was saying, it's also possible he either didn't believe me or didn't believe I would actually do it.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and I'm still considering actually using the card. FYI, it's a modified gladiator ability that lets me choose two people that aren't necessarily myself (though I can also choose myself if I so wish). If I really want him lynched, I'm going to pit him against, say, thd - a fight he's going to lose (basically ensuring his lynch). But I'm currently considering just pitting him against another scum read of mine and letting things play out. Depends how selfish I wanna be.

I do wanna use this though, partially just to use it up in case of any card-stealing shenanigans or the like, and partially to prove I had it at my disposal and chose not to save it for a lylo situation (though this would involve people believing I could use it in a lylo situation, so *shrug*)

[zMuffinMan]

@Serene,

Who exactly do you think I insulted? Unless you think me calling Rylai low-hanging fruit, which he is in this game, is an insult?

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin tldr me whats happened since I last posted I wont be reading for a bit tonight

Drezi claimed scum. Pieguy doesn't wanna lynch him. I'm being mean to people. Gaiden wrote content (lol jk). Not much else to speak of.

[zMuffinMan]

my impression of this was that he was somewhat similar to me in that his town game contains a large amount of pointed questioning/tone and him pushing people, whereas in his scum game he spent a lot of time just sitting around not making many waves in the game

By the way, pieguy, you've gone from suggesting these are what you perceive to be traits of his town and scum games, to defending the waves he hasn't been making by calling it town anyway.

*shrug*

I may have pretty much already made up my mind about him, but I'm not changing my opinions as it suits me to fit the read. I suppose you could say, "who cares about meta?" but whatever...

[zMuffinMan]

Well you did say I insulted him, actually, but I also think you have a pretty warped definition of treating someone badly if it extends so far that it counts calling someone "low-hanging fruit" or pointing out their arguments are inane. I suppose I could be nicer in doing this, but I don't quite know a polite way to say "low-hanging fruit". Perhaps a delicious food that isn't so high that it cannot be touched? I'm open to suggestions, but I think that would just make me sound like more of a patronising dick than I already do!

[zMuffinMan]

Also I can't technically take it to PMs until you've actually replaced out (since it's technically a breach of communicating during ongoing game rules, just fyi)

[zMuffinMan]

...?

[zMuffinMan]

That would entirely depend on who I choose, and it seems you're suggesting that the only information that can ever be gained is from a wagon that goes to lynch naturally? In which case, I'm just going to say no.

[zMuffinMan]

Although I will admit that using the card is partially out of my selfish desire to get my preferred lynch and I could care less if you think that deprives you of information (even if it actually doesn't, really).

Please stop telling my friends that I invited for this game that they're bad at mafia.

I'm... not?

Unless you're talking about Rylai. Whose play could be called objectively bad. Whether it's partially due to time constraints or whatever doesn't change anything. I'm not calling him a bad player. Most people have bad games.

[zMuffinMan]

Admiting to it being out of your selfish desire instead at least is better than saying that it doesnt remove possible information to be gained from a lynch.

How certain are you on Drezi scum?

It technically removes one form of information and replaces it with another. Not to mention, who votes who isn't the only decisive way to gain information (and probably isn't even the best, given how inconsistent VCA can actually be).

I would be surprised if he's town. If he character claims, and he is who I think he is, that will reinforce the theory I have going about him and make me fairly certain he's scum via play and setup. If he's not who I think he is, the theory is moot but I still think he's very likely scum via play. If you don't know why I think this, you aren't reading. If you're simply asking to ascertain just how certain I am, then you should know I never claim to be very certain of any lynch I ever push, regardless of how much I think it to be a scum lynch.

No, I'm talking about you mocking Serene trying to read Kagami who he's not familiar with.

Really?

After a snarky line in 542, he literally quoted the definition of IIoA, which clearly states "

more

than they ask for other players' reasoning" and acted like I didn't know what I was talking about, while suggesting that just because someone does some setup spec, it counts as IIoA...

What the fuck am I meant to say to this?

I didn't even mock him, I just pointed out how utterly wrong he is about this.

[zMuffinMan]

er?

*shrug*

it feels like you've gone from saying he has a similar playstyle to you, to saying it doesn't matter if his playstyle isn't what you initially thought it was because his posts are town anyway. and it feels like your justification for this is stretching (and not really analysing the town and scum motivation so much as looking at it as possibly coming from town and sticking with your original read).

muffin i think you're low hanging fruit

Just so you know, I'll find out where you live and I'll make you pay for this. Also, reported your post. Enjoy your ban.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, I forgot Shadoweh was hydra'd with Tammy in that Serum&Steel game. That was a good game. Spend entirety of D1 claiming scum. Get night killed by different scum teams on consecutive nights even though I was obviously metal. *sigh*

In all honesty though, I'm leaving Kagami alone because, while I know the play here isn't all that different from Serum&Steel, it's also not all that different from town games I've seen (like Xenosaga, where Kagami was mislynched D2 for it). And although I also mentioned this in Serum&Steel as an excuse to let Kagami float for a couple days, meh. Point is that Kagami's play is what it is and could be coming from town or scum but it's too early to say for sure, IMO. You're free to disagree if you feel strongly otherwise.

Btw I'm pretty sure the definition of that isn't just setup spec, it also refers to just talking about what people have said in the game instead of your personal opinion of what they've said.

Well, yeah, but that's why I told him to substantiate the claim instead of continually asserting it to be true...

[zMuffinMan]

I don't *have* to use it. I also said I was still considering whether I would (I would like to get rid of it at some point, though, just in case).

I was just acknowledging that if I did use it, it would be for purely selfish reasons and I don't much care that this is the case.

[zMuffinMan]

In all honesty, any time Tammy hydras with someone, it's Tammy and .... that other one that doesn't post as much.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, first of all, I don't think the point about SB joking about bussing is strong at all. If it's not something he does as scum more often than he does as town, then it's an alignment-neutral thing, but this is something that's both rather obscure and has such a small sample size that I don't think it's useful to consider.

Also, I don't know whether he "lied" about his recent game history, but just based on the fact that it's a rather silly thing to lie about (seeing as it's very easily verifiable with how many players there are from your site), I'm going to suggest that, if anything, it was selective memory (some games are just less memorable than others). Also, he said you neglected to mention his most recent game (which was apparently a scum game?) and I have no means to actually check this.

I'm going to put it out there that I've seen this sort of thing a few times (suggesting someone is lying about their past games) and it's never actually led to a scum lynch, but this is also just based off my memory (I know I've actually seen it, I just cannot recall for certain if it's ever led to a scum lynch or suspicion on someone that was scum doing this maliciously) so if someone were to actually check my games for it, they might find something different. *shrug*

I think you're over-analysing SB's "defense" of Serene. It's the kind of argument where, yes, he could be scum who is defending a partner (and if he flips scum, you could revisit this), but it also makes sense coming from town defending a town read.

I do agree that his pieguy vote had rather weak justification, but I could see time constraints playing a part here. If I were giving him the benefit of the doubt here, it looks like the kind of vote he could have made because, after skimming through recent pages, he made a mental note about a couple things he felt were off in pieguy's play (which would explain, for example, how vague the "around 170 iirc" thing was). It could also just be an incredibly lazy scum vote, but meh.

I don't have much of an issue with your point about his vote on you, either. It's just not so compelling that it makes me think he's scum.

Like I may have mentioned in recent posts, I'm waiting for him to produce more content because so far nothing he's done has really swayed me either way.

[zMuffinMan]

except for the bit where he was scumreading Ryel since before the game began

Drezi*

I should mention it's not that I was scum reading him, just that I had a theory in which it made a lot of sense for him to be scum based on my own assumptions prior to this game starting, so I have been paying careful attention to how he approached the game. It's not particularly fruitful for me to talk about this at this point in time since the less he can guess about this, the less he can potentially lie to obscure things. I mentioned it because, well, I have been a bit biased towards the idea of him being scum, so he was technically right that I haven't given him the same fair chance I might have given others (though I do think I've been trying to assess things as objectively as possible, and even if I didn't have any bias here, his play so far is the sort of play I think is more likely to come from scum).

[zMuffinMan]

Someone trustworthy

drezi claimed scum with rylai and ooba's predecessor

they haven't said who the fourth scum is yet

I should add that I'm lynchproof and possibly bulletproof~

me too!

[zMuffinMan]

i'm keeping my options open and being hypocritical, i think

[zMuffinMan]

general question for anyone that actually reads 655, what do you think of it? both in terms of its content and what it says about drezi's alignment?

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't make you read anything

but it's nice to know i have that power over you

i surely won't abuse it!

[zMuffinMan]

also, since i know pieguy is going to say something along the lines of, "i don't think he'd be confrontational" and mention borkgame again, if this plays into your read, i'd like to hear what you think he would do differently as scum here, given the stances he's taken this game and the pressure i've been applying?

i actually haven't had a chance to read it in full yet, and probably won't read/respond to it til later, but from a brief skim through it i'm seeing a lot of semantics and false parallels

[zMuffinMan]

re: 655

I don't think you're "low-hanging fruit", but the discussion I was having with pieguy wasn't that you're scum because you're pushing Rylai, but that this is the only thing you'd done in the game that could be argued as scum hunting. I don't think pushing someone who is an easy lynch by itself is necessarily scummy (sometimes they are scum, it's just a fact).

Initially, the questions I asked you were designed to extract more information out of you and understand your intentions. And yes, perhaps my bias shone through in the way I phrased questions to you, but I don't see what the point you're trying to make about the way I phrased my posts to you is.

I think you tried to quote me forcing my reads or something at some point. Just to clarify, when I use the term "forcing reads", I mean picking on things that aren't actually scummy and suggesting they are to fit your reads. This happens sometimes with, for example, people who do PBPA. But it also happens when someone breaks down every minor point in a post and suggests there's scum intent in everything, regardless of the actual content. It isn't necessarily a scum trait (since sometimes overzealous town can do this), but given this was the only thing you'd done in the game that could constitute scum hunting, it came across as forced. What you quoted is me thinking you're scum. Nothing more.

It looks like you pulled up a scum game of mine and you're trying to suggest that me looking at your meta is scummy because I've done it in a scum game once before. *shrug*

The discussion I was having with pieguy was because he suggested your town meta is like his (asking questions, being aggressive) and your scum meta is more passive. I pointed out that you weren't asking questions and you weren't forming opinions or scum hunting in any way (outside of arguably the Rylai post you made). If you're unsure why I think this is more likely to come from you as scum, then I don't know what to say.

The point I was making about you FoSing me but then saying I could still be an overzealous townie is that it wasn't the "firm" stance pieguy was suggesting it was, since you left a caveat that would potentially allow you to back out of it later if you so chose and not seem inconsistent.

I'm not quite sure what you think is similar about that final quote from The Wire and #534. A small note, though; I was intentionally being emotionally manipulative in that game because it was {a} not something I'd ever done to that extent as scum before (and I was building my game around certain people who were very aware of how I play as scum), and {b} I felt it was absolutely necessary given the very poor position my predecessor had put me in that game. For the record, I detailed a lot of my thoughts about my play in that game in the scum QT, and this is what I wrote about it:

apologies to bbmolla in advance

as unethical as it may be, that was a staged experiment with a couple of ideas mixed into it that required me looking like i was getting angry at someone in the game

also sorry toasty if i may have broken any rules or anything (i'm not going to do it again, it was a one-time thing, if it didn't have the intended effect, then there is no point in repeating it anyway)

But again, I'm not quite sure what you see as similar about that post.

[zMuffinMan]

I can kind of see the points that Drezi is making on Muffin

What specifically?

If muffin is accurately describing his role, which is easily demonstrable, he's town.

I am, but I wouldn't hand out town reads for stuff like this (especially since you can't technically know whether my ability has limitations on it). If FakeGod took anything on board from the last Touhou Upick (apart from the stuff about godfathers and spies), it's that it's not a good idea to give town roles that *seem* like they could only be town while not giving scum anything of the like (e.g. last game, the Kaguya-Mokou thing, the evolving multi-voter, the human-only vig, etc). I'm expecting this game not to be so easily breakable (even if we did end up getting a few of those lynched somehow).

-Weaker scummy impression: Kagami, Shadoweh

Would it count as putting unfair pressure on you if I ask you to talk about these?

What gave you the prior for drezi-scum, muffin?

Seeing as Shadoweh declared intent to hammer and asked for a claim, I'll talk about it immediately after this happens.

Hey muffin what do you think of SB

Same as before. "Meh".

I'd like to see him talk about stuff that isn't sky_paladin in the near future, if this is at all possible. Again, I don't want to come across like I'm a big, mean bully asking for something as unreasonable as thoughts on the game.

[zMuffinMan]

SB

[zMuffinMan]

If we've decided on a lynch happening today and someone is about to hammer, I could use it just for the sake of using it (but it would reset the votecount).

Otherwise, it's me limiting the lynchpool, which I'm perfectly fine with but others seem to think isn't that great an idea. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

I'll use it if a lynchpool has been decided upon (I'd also prefer waiting til after claims happen).

It would help if people start consolidating on lynches that will *actually* happen today rather than vanity wagons.

Also,

@ooba, if I were to choose you as a gladiator candidate (which would technically involve declaring you as a target), would anything negative happen to me?

[zMuffinMan]

For those that are regulars here, is Sprinkled Delight a Katsuki alt?

Yes (cupcake quoted it because it was an alt slip, which is generally required on MS when someone alt-slips).

[zMuffinMan]

you pick two people who are good lynches if you do

that would be the idea, though my opinion of who is or isn't a good lynch seems to vastly differ from some other people's opinions, so again it would help if people started consolidating rather than forming vanity wagons!

[zMuffinMan]

I would like zMuffin to explain if what he thought was off about Drezi's role is there in what he claimed

My theory is most likely wrong, but I'll talk about it anyway since it was the initial reason I was wary of Drezi.

It has to do with this piece of information:

There may be abilities/spellcards that skip Day and/or Night Phases. Beware!

I know FakeGod is the kind of mod to include this sort of information because he doesn't like blindsiding town (especially after the last Touhou Upick where he was heavily criticised for this), which means whoever has this ability is almost certainly scum.

I also knew that, given my list of choices, if I were to be in a neighbourhood this game, there would be a decent chance I'd be paired with one of the only characters for which is makes sense (flavour-wise) that they could do this. There simply aren't a whole lot of powers in the Touhou universe where manipulation of day/night fits.

Obviously nothing here is rock solid, which is why I've been assessing his play as objectively as possible (or attempting to). It's not a major factor in my scum read of him, but it definitely was the catalyst for how I approached him in this game. However, I don't think it makes much sense that Tewi is the one who can do this, so if Drezi's character claim is to be believed, my theory about this is probably wrong.

I'm currently considering the possibility of lynching elsewhere (mostly because it is theoretically sound to leave an investigative claim alive at least one night), but I'm still not feeling his play looks town.

[zMuffinMan]

as for Kagami, if I had to force myself to point at something, it probably would be the way Kagami seems to be clinging onto you 181 660 674 707 (and 50 198 maybe)

Two of the posts you just listed came after you gave your read on Kagami (and one was immediately before it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this made it fresh in your mind or something).

Is there a reason you've completely ignored my response to your wall?

yes, I'm not going to go about and point useless questions at people (which seems to be the pinnacle of towniness here) because of my gut impressions right away, I'll wait and see and post when there's stuff I actually want them to answer to

Also pieguy already commented on this, but I find it hard to believe there's absolutely nothing you've wanted anyone to answer in this game. I think you've asked me maybe two questions over the course of the game (I can only remember one) and outside of that, the only game-relevant questions have been in that Rylai post you made (which seemed less about gaining information, and more about making a point).

Especially since you were/are apparently having difficulty forming reads on people in this game, how did you not have questions?

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy, i'm not interested in breaking down your case bit by bit, but i will say i don't think many of the points you make have any validity to them

as a quick example (just because it seems to be your shortest point)

this is a pretty big contradiction. he's claiming that a town player can think that not all of their scum reads are scum, but completely ignores the fact that Kilga is doing the exact same thing and instead calls him scum for what is equivalent to having a lot of scum reads.

you're misinterpreting this. the question sky asked SB ("You mean like when Kilga voted five players?") was to point out that SB attacking him for it makes no sense unless it's also useless for Kilga to do something similar.

anyway, i think some of your points are either misinterpretations or misguided, and others just seem rather weak to me. i don't think it's anything similar to what drezi was doing (and certainly nothing along the lines of what i was talking about with "forcing reads").

i don't have strong feelings about sky being town (i'm still undecided on what i think about his reaction to what he apparently thought was a day-vig and i haven't read his recent posts yet) but i don't think your case holds water.

[zMuffinMan]

read his justifications for me being scum

*shrug*

i've seen shittier logic employed by both town and scum

i've had people tell me that because i claimed to be an innocent child and in fact wasn't an innocent child i must be scum

that sort of stuff doesn't actually bother me

[zMuffinMan]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5652797

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5653080
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5653113

[zMuffinMan]

(i also had scum vote me for that in that game)

the SB point he makes is also rather weak given relentless was obviously trolling and was definitely from shrine maiden but pretending not to be - it doesn't say anything about his (your) alignment, but for the sticklers who think "omg lie = scum" i can see why it could bother them.

[zMuffinMan]

I wanted to put Gaiden as scum because I feel like they don't exist this game and I can't remember ever seeing them vote. So that normally would be enough for me to put them in the scum wagon, but Muffin thinks he is town and I trust muffin

For the record, while I do think gaiden is a bit more likely to be town than scum here, it is not a read I'm massively confident about.

I had a dream last night that I woke up to a post by gaiden that contained content.

I get the impression they are a mason pair. I don't really have a solid feeling about GiF but I have a good feeling about Thkgdms so GiF gets a clear by association.

Also, this is the Xth time I've seen this, and until I explicitly see one of them confirm that they're masons, I'm just assuming they aren't but I'm not interested in pursuing either of them at this point in time. (And seeing as this game doesn't have role flips, if they are masons - which everyone seems to be assuming - I don't want people clearing one because the other flips town unless this is verified.)

Without considering possible roles, I'd be assuming GIF is scum right now.

[zMuffinMan]

did you not read the other reasonings behind his post?

It literally was

"I had some justification for you being scum but I realized thats not right, so I'll use this instead. oh btw did I mention that I didn't have a scumread on the previous player?"

jesus do I have to lurk through this game while stuff like this gets purged before I start playing?

i read it

it didn't strike me as all that scummy, actually

more honest than anything

could also be scum too lazy to give a shit about making up a better excuse but eh

[zMuffinMan]

I think the main problem in your line of thinking is that you're assuming competence.

that's a bad habit of mine that i've been trying to fix

it's a work in progress

[zMuffinMan]

feigned belief that he had been vigged

mm... i have mixed opinions about this

just to be clear, are you referring solely to the reads list post or his whole reaction?

[zMuffinMan]

can you describe what specifically you don't like about the reads list post?

[zMuffinMan]

Posting a reads list is a stereotypical thing you do when you believe you've been killed, which is well known

this is the main thing i'm internally debating at the moment

whether it is likely he is scum who thought "oh, in case it's a fake day vig, i'll do this because that's what's expected"

or whether he's town who thought it was productive (or expected)

and i'm trying to figure out whether i think it's likely he really thought he may have been vig killed

to be honest, the rest of his reactions to what he may have thought was a day vig don't look that bad to me

[zMuffinMan]

thought it was productive (or expected)

(or routine)

[zMuffinMan]

scum probably had pre-game chat. i asked fakegod why neighbours don't, he said it's because of scum accidentally claiming scum pre-game in a neighbourhood QT, so he just disallows it by default now.

[zMuffinMan]

i think relentless was from the same forum as them, and pretending not to be. that seems rather obvious

the question is whether this has any meaning to his (katsuki's) alignment, and i don't think it does

[zMuffinMan]

i'm going to sleep on it and think about who i want to lynch tomorrow

i'm not that fond of ooba's entrance, but i'll wait til he's caught up

and rylai has all but disappeared

[zMuffinMan]

it'd be just repeating ourselves all over if I started replying there

not really, since all your points are essentially nonsensical (as i pointed out in the response).

the arguments you're making either come from misinterpretations (i'm still deciding whether i think this was deliberate or not) or from false parallels to a scum game of mine (and, even if you don't address the misinterpretations, i would still like to know what exactly the point of bringing up the scum game was and how exactly you think my play here is like that - the meta point aside, since it looks like you're just suggesting me discussing meta makes me scum because i've done it as scum...)

I agreed with the point that the amount of posts you spent trying to deconstruct a single townread that was unlikely to influence the game was strange

i see... so what do you do when someone is calling your scum read town? it seems counter-intuitive not to do this

little things like deleting the numbers from the C&P of the playerlist

note: if you just drag your cursor along the list and copy it, it doesn't add numbers

not that this is overly important


also i'm pretty sure i have an idea of exactly what drezi is claiming, and i have mixed opinions about how to interpret the way he claimed it and the way he's being vague about it. could come from town trying to keep scum guessing, or it could come from scum trying to sound more important than he actually is

either way, if we are keeping him alive today, it shouldn't be because of what he's claimed

i could see myself moving to ooba today if drezi doesn't happen

i would like it if someone were to vig rylai tonight, or at least strongly consider it before deciding, "nah, i do what i want" and shooting a strong town role. thanks in advance

[zMuffinMan]

i don't have any time to read through the walls right now. will be around in 9 hours or so maybe.

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: ooba

[zMuffinMan]

you are misinterpreting several things, pieguy. i just don't have the time or energy to point them out right now, so it'll have to wait until later if i can be bothered at all

though the fact that you're misinterpreting things doesn't necessarily make sky not scum, it just makes your arguments invalid

also, lately i've been thinking katsuki could be scum but this is not that important to talk about right now so i won't

[zMuffinMan]

there's 2 days with 10 to lynch and that puts it at 6-5.

2 days is like a billion years almost

[zMuffinMan]

I am vehemently against an ooba lynch.

why? (pronounced: hwy?)

[zMuffinMan]

well i still haven't read the last couple pages in full (i'll be back in about an hour, hour and a half~ish) but unless something's changed i wasn't all that enthusiastic about the sky lynch and everyone seems to have gone off drezi because of the vague role claim

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

This is such bullshit how are you possibly not enthused about this lynch such that you'd want to lynch ooba of all players D1 after a single post?

it's not ooba's post/s i care about, really, it's more his predecessor

also are you aware that noddy called you muffincat and you ignored it?

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote

i need to read and think about something but not having good day today

i'll be back in a few hours

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not gonna use the gladiate today, mainly because i left it too late (my fault) and i'm waffling on who i actually want to see lynched plus there's a lack of claims on the table to ease this decision. if i'm still alive tomorrow, i can do it then

[zMuffinMan]

i'll live on in your hearts

his claim of unlimited investigator

that's not what he's claiming, fyi

like i said in some other post (or maybe i just thought it, i dunno), he's either town being deliberately vague because that's what people do, or he's scum pretending to be far more important than he actually is to play on the fears of people who don't like lynching investigative claims

his play still makes me think scum

[zMuffinMan]

i'm gonna do a bit of reading

i'm still not particularly thrilled with the idea of a sky lynch (which is gonna make me look pretty dumb if he turns out to be scum, but eh)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not gonna use the gladiate today, mainly because i left it too late (my fault) and i'm waffling on who i actually want to see lynched plus there's a lack of claims on the table to ease this decision. if i'm still alive tomorrow, i can do it then

You have plenty of time.

i guess... but i'm undecided on who i want to lynch right now, which is why i'm reading over stuff again

if it were my decision and my decision alone, i would say fuck it and just pick two people who aren't sky. but i have a feeling that would make some people not very happy

so in the interests of fairness, i suppose i should include him as a candidate, even if i don't think the likelihood he's scum is all that high

and i would like to see his claim before i do this

i'm undecided whether i feel more like ooba or drezi is a better lynch today, which is why i'm rereading stuff at the moment

[zMuffinMan]

also there is the matter of my ability causing everyone to unvote, and requiring fakegod to be on to actually formally verify i'm doing what i'm saying i'm doing and not being a troll and whatnot. which i'm not, but, you know, maybe i am!?!? (i'm not, though. for real. or am i!?!?)

[zMuffinMan]

lynching nacho is always justice, though (except when he claims cop d1)

[zMuffinMan]

Who cares about upsetting people and fairness?

i do. i'm a nice and likeable guy

lol jk

Vote: Drezi

still reading (or saying i'm reading so it seems like i am being productive while i'm browsing youtube)

[zMuffinMan]

sky should just full-claim in his next post since that seems to be where the general consensus is headed.

preferably without leaving stuff really vague because you think it's important for scum not to know details about your role or something like that.

[zMuffinMan]

in other news, someone break it down for me in really easy-to-understand terms why sky is so scummy

spoon-feed me like i'm an idiot who doesn't see how scummy sky is

[zMuffinMan]

someone other than pieguy, please! unless he has new, better points

i need you to break it down like "he did X, and this benefits scum because..."

[zMuffinMan]

hey ooba,

what happened to kagami between 737 and 899?

is your SB read entirely dependent on sky being scum? (if so, why is SB+Drezi one of your suggested lynches?) why was SB a town lean in 737?

i'd like to hear more on your sky read (specifically what you think was scummy and what these 'too scummy to be scum' markers are)

also, don't agree a dual lynch is necessary today even if it would provide more information heading into the night. and seeing as we're having a hard enough time deciding on a single lynch, i don't see us deciding on two.

though in all honesty, if sky is getting lynched today, i wouldn't mind seeing a second lynch used on drezi

[zMuffinMan]

my iso

paraphrasing here, tell me if i missed something:

"HEY MUFFIN LOOK AT THIS SCUMFUCK"
"LOOK HOW SCUMFUCKY HE IS"
"SEE THIS SCUMFUCKERY? IT'S SCUMFUCKTASTIC"

tell me if i missed parts of your case

[zMuffinMan]

I could theoretically do that in the neighbourhood (assuming you don't get lynched today) and trust you to convey the message to everyone!

But I don't think my reads are so important that I need to do that.

Either I will be around tomorrow or I won't, and if I'm not, then my opinions aren't any more or less valid than the rest of the game's.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, theoretically, you should think any list I include would not be worth following (seeing as I think you're scum and all)

[zMuffinMan]

since Muffin has called for it

i called for it to make potential decisions easier

and because i believe unnecessarily keeping claims hidden is useless

when you're getting run up and likely to be lynched, it's probably a good idea to not leave claims to the last minute, especially if you think you have something important to share with the class

[zMuffinMan]

I asked Drezi to clarify if his role was unlimited shot investigator and he was vague about it.

i know. that could be because he's scum being deliberately vague to play up the value of his role and seem important (so as not to get lynched). or it could be town being deliberately vague to keep scum guessing.

it's rather annoying, imo, but i can't force him to reveal his role and, by itself, it's not necessarily scum- or town-motivated

*shrug*

i think he's scum and i don't mind seeing him lynched today

[zMuffinMan]

I want to clarify that I have not lied in my claim in any shape or form

also i chuckled at this line because i believe this to be true

[zMuffinMan]

i should also admit that i have vested interest in seeing drezi lynched today

fakegod told me to lynch him because then we can spend the rest of the game alone together in the neighbourhood PT. initially, i was taken aback and didn't know if he was serious, but he caressed my cheek and whispered sweet nothings into my ear and i agreed because i would do anything for him. he's just so dreamy

[zMuffinMan]

i suppose that doesn't aid my cause

ignore everything i just said

i only want to lynch drezi because i think he's scum

[zMuffinMan]

dunno. there's at least 3 hoods but only 2 have claimed all its members

sakura+SB+pieguy+noddy
me+drezi
kagami+MYSTERYPERSON

[zMuffinMan]

I am half human/half youkai

Before I forget, does your race specifically contain the word "youkai"?

(This question isn't overly important in any way I can currently figure out. It's just role PMs in this game are formatted differently to the last two games FakeGod ran and I'm making minor notes of any differences in case I somehow reach an epiphany somewhere down the line.)

[zMuffinMan]

a sakura wagon isn't happening today

neither is a SB wagon

neither is a kagami wagon

and i am pretty sure my wagon isn't going to go through before the deadline, but drezi is free to keep pushing it, i guess!

[zMuffinMan]

and there's still so many people not voting, holy shit

[zMuffinMan]

gaiden, how the fuck have you gone through this entire day phase without voting once?

[zMuffinMan]

sky,

you have 14 hours to convince 8 people your case on sakura makes her a better lynch than other candidates available - and get a claim (unless we're hammering without a claim)

while it's nice you went through all that effort, that's the kind of thing that should be looked at tomorrow, not today

even if you are right and sakura is scum, i don't like last-minute rush wagons in general

pedit: what kilgy said

[zMuffinMan]

gaiden, how the fuck have you gone through this entire day phase without voting once?

I have no clue.

can you stop being useless? tia

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, why do you still want Drezi dead? didn't he claim some sort of investigative?
Or is it because the claim was too vague?

He claimed some sort of investigative, and I believe it, but I don't think it's anything powerful. If I had to guess, it'd either be something like, say, the race cop I had as Tewi in the first game or some other weak investigative role. So unlike, say, a full cop claim, I'm less inclined to leave it alive for the purposes of getting an investigative result.

I still think his play points very heavily towards him being scum. I think he's tapered off since the claim because the suspicion on him was at least somewhat alleviated when people started unvoting because of the claim - yes, I'm aware he claims to lack motivation because of walls or something like that now, but I don't believe this is the reason. He's not answering simple questions. And, more importantly, he's still not making any effort to find scum.

Also, I thought that post to me was rather weird unless it was meant to be somehow ironic or sarcastic or something, given I suspect him and he supposedly suspects me.

[zMuffinMan]

zmuffin, what do you think about Dan/notsci atm?

Dunno. They're both in my "meh, I'll wait til later to sort" pile. noddy has just been lazy and I've been kind of giving him a free pass for today. AD's just been... there. I know he's written a decent amount of content, at least in comparison to some others, but I'm struggling to remember any posts of his that I think were definitively town. I don't think he looks scummy (even if his reads continue to be the complete opposite of mine), but I don't find him all that town-looking.

[zMuffinMan]

Why are you feeling apathetic? Outside of perhaps Sky_Paladin's recent walls (which no one is forcing you to read), the volume of walls has probably decreased overall as of late. So I don't believe this is the cause.

If it's just because you're being suspected, the pressure on you almost entirely evaporated after your claim, but you still made no effort to do anything. So I don't think that's the reason, either.

[zMuffinMan]

Also what was the point of 955 if you think I'm scum and I think you're scum?

[zMuffinMan]

Based from the last two FG games I've replaced into, gaiden was town both times and he went entire days without voting once. Even when we mislynched him last game.

I'm full aware he prides himself on being relatively detrimental. I just don't understand why he does it.

[zMuffinMan]

Purely for consolidation

Could you remind me who your scum reads are, if you'd only vote one of these wagons for consolidation reasons?

I thought mafia players would pick up on the not even subtle signs hinting it should not be taken literally.

OK. That doesn't really explain the point of it but whatever. I'm still not seeing what made you apathetic about this game, seeing as your wagon almost dissipated after your claim and you were given room to participate in this game however you wanted to.

Even I partially backed off from you initially after the claim.

[zMuffinMan]

sounds kinky

[zMuffinMan]

his attitude is in stark contrast with mine, I think town is kinda more likely to resign and accept that town gets mislynched D1 duh

btw, Drezi, this attitude sucks (unless you're scum, going for some sort of attempted appeal here, in which case it's not particularly swaying).

I may have had bias towards you being scum here, but the reason I waited so long to vote you is because I was trying to objectively assess your play. I was asking you questions to understand your motivations and get a better idea for your thoughts on the game - yes, because I thought it was likely you could be scum (based on a false theory I'd built up), but in no way had I made up my mind that you had to be scum because of it. There's a severe lack of scum hunting coming from you in this game, both before and after this supposed drop in motivation you're claiming has affected you the past couple days.

If you happen to be town, I'll probably feel a little bad for the way I approached you in this game, but I do not think the way I approached you should have affected your ability to actually scum hunt here.

You weren't guaranteed to be lynched at any point in this game (and even at this late hour, you aren't the only viable wagon). People backed off of you after your claim and gave you plenty of room to participate. I don't see where this apathetic attitude is coming from if you're town.

[zMuffinMan]

Like, honestly, I've been trying to get you to produce something that looks town for a while now, and you refuse to.

I gave you a response to that wall you wrote on me, explaining each of the issues you apparently have with me in as clear a way as possible, and you ignored it. But you didn't ignore it in favour of doing something productive, you just ignored it because it would bog the game down if you responded or something. What I was looking for here was whether I'd made my perspective clear; it was essentially a reach-out to you to perhaps either better explain the reasons you think I'm scum or at least acknowledge that some of your thinking may have been wrong...

And I don't think you were anywhere close to being a lynch candidate after your claim up until I revoted you just recently. So this idea that you're demotivated because you were resigned to being a mislynch doesn't read genuine at all.

I think you're trying some sort of ill-thought-out scum appeal here, but in the event you're actually town, I suppose what I'm trying to get across to you is that I don't like the attitude you've shown this game. I don't think you're a bad player (regardless of your alignment), but your play in this particular game has been lacking if you're town.

[zMuffinMan]

His vig is the shot that fails on humans

[zMuffinMan]

OK, I don't really see a point in posting a deconstruction of that whole thing this late in the day (it's not that productive this close to the deadline), but I'll talk about a couple key things.

A lack of scum hunting isn't null - it indicates a scum mindset.

I do think the AD point was you trying to make Rylai look scummier (you weren't directly calling it scummy but the way it was phrased was obviously meant to imply Rylai is only townreading AD because AD was townreading Rylai).

This aside, you'd be better off sharing your thoughts on the game as a whole than responding to me this late in the day. I brought up my response to you because it was a reach-out that you ignored at the time. I'm more interested in hearing your other thoughts on the game at the moment.

[zMuffinMan]

but your play in this particular game has been lacking if you're town.

Sure, I'll give that to you, even though it looks more like a way of making excuses for yourself, since you know i'm town. In the Madoka game where scum Sakura tried to bullshit a scumread on me, I reacted the exact same way as I reacted to you here, and even though it was impossible for her to get me lynched there, I couldn't get her lynched either, got fed up and replaced out eventually just like here so whatever.

Well, that would explain what you're trying to emulate here, regardless of your alignment.

Actually, I read over the exchange you had with Sakura in that game and it was vastly different to the way you approached me here (just as a quick example, the way you were thoroughly questioning Sakura to discern her motivations was entirely different from your approach to me this game, which has involved very little questioning at all), and your entire approach to that game in general (how open you were with reads, how you were questioning different players, the sorts of arguments you were making) were also vastly different. This is actually the point I was trying to make to pieguy (and Sakura) when we were discussing this. And this also played a minor part in why I don't believe they were right about the meta arguments they were making.

[zMuffinMan]

INVESTIGATIVE AND PROTECTIVE ROLES SHOULD

NOT

TARGET ME TONIGHT

i'm taking that as an invitation to target you with troll roles

[zMuffinMan]

Except tactically replacing out is bannable afaik, and I wouldn't ever replace out of a game I still want to play anyway, but I guess you'd just have to take my word for that.

It is, but the threat to do so without actually replacing out is not bannable.

(Also, tactical replacements are a grey area since it's hard to prove you're doing it because you're genuinely fed up with the game - regardless of your alignment - or because you're hoping to give whoever replaces you an advantage... The only bans that have been handed out for it are when it's happened multiple times as a sort of trust tell for one alignment. Or when someone has admitted it.)

[zMuffinMan]

not everyone has the same amount of spell cards and abilities

[zMuffinMan]

That is not a full claim.

You have three spell cards and an ability.

I'm actually thinking this post was an unintentional town slip, given FakeGod posts role PMs in the scum PT and I find it highly unlikely he's scum who hasn't read his team's role PMs (or that scum all have exactly three spell cards and an ability).

The alternative here is he forgot or overlooked this.

[zMuffinMan]

Drezi,

Can you talk about your current reads?

If that unofficial VC is correct, even now your lynch isn't set in stone.

[zMuffinMan]

It's not clear that those are separate abilities since they're tied together.

[zMuffinMan]

hello ad,

i missed it if you answered it, but could you respond to this:

Purely for consolidation

Could you remind me who your scum reads are, if you'd only vote one of these wagons for consolidation reasons?

also what do you think of 1099, given scum almost certainly have a list of their team's role PMs in their PT and it's highly unlikely they all have 1 ability + 3 spellcards?

[zMuffinMan]

You're certain your spellcard won't extend the day, muffin?

It didn't occur to me to ask, but it doesn't explicitly state it. The wording is such that all I'd expect is all votes to be removed from all current wagons. I'll clarify anyway.

[zMuffinMan]

You're certain your spellcard won't extend the day, muffin?

It didn't occur to me to ask, but it doesn't explicitly state it. The wording is such that all I'd expect is all votes to be removed from all current wagons. I'll clarify anyway.

It won't affect the deadline.

[zMuffinMan]

i think it was fakeclaiming something so different in nature but similiar in tricking people in the sense "there's no way scum sky would say that!".

Mm, this is slightly different to that, I think.

There's actually a progression I can follow with him not believing the claim, for starters. But also this isn't a clear, black-and-white thing you'd think of as a town tell, especially since it's not even noticeable as a town tell unless people know scum know their team's role PMs.

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

i'm actually considering the possibility of moving to ooba, but i'm not 100% comfortable lynching without a claim

[zMuffinMan]

spellcard visits aren't tracked

[zMuffinMan]

(this was specifically clarified in the PM FakeGod sent to everyone pre-game)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm tossing up how likely it is that fakegod included a red herring "this is too weak to be a scum role" scum role in this game (i know he likely included one, i just don't know if this would be it, it's almost too weak)

i think there's a decent chance drezi, scum or town, is telling the truth about what his role is

[zMuffinMan]

it really would have been nice to have more time to think about the claims than a few hours before the deadline when there aren't more viable wagons

[zMuffinMan]

that role wasn't actually that weak, it just had conditions attached to it

the role drezi is claiming is legitimately weak.

the only thing i can liken it to with any previous scum roles is varsoon's role in the last game but he was a godfather, so meh

[zMuffinMan]

when i talk about weak, i mean in the sense of what he's actually able to claim

generally you'd claim as much as you can while leaving out stuff like "oh and i can't nightkill, doesn't that suck?" - the idea being that you want town to think you're beneficial to keep around (unless you're going for a simple claim that will leave you with no strings attached because you can talk your way out of a lynch - which is what i prefer doing)

anyway, not overly important since it depends on whether or not drezi is being entirely honest here

i dunno, i suppose im just getting cold feet because i feel like i'm missing major pieces of the puzzle here and i need to reassess something

[zMuffinMan]

also whenever people start agreeing with me, i tend to thing i'm on the wrong track

[zMuffinMan]

well, outside of D1 in Saki mafia, i think my reads were right for the rest of the game and nobody listened to me

so that holds true there as well

[zMuffinMan]

actually, in most of my more recent town games, i've had absolutely atrocious D1 reads that i completely reversed from d2 onwards. that happened in xenosaga as well with pieguy and others D1.

i suppose i should have mentioned that before people started saying they agree with stuff im writing!

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

i would suggest not broadcasting your action and making the decision yourself without the influence of other players

if you die copping, you die

if you choose to vig instead, so be it

[zMuffinMan]

scum likely have a ninja ability to get around the global track (just saying)