Nightingale's Tale - [Game Over]

[Nachomamma8]

I would formally request that the scum leave me alive until Day 3. When Night 3 comes, you can kill me and I will harbor no ill will towards you for doing so, but please please please please let me live until then.

Thank you!
Your buddy Nacho

[Nachomamma8]

Bit meh on lala
Lala's reaction felt town
Rest of her posts suck

Eh.
I don't really read into the "darn I wish I was scum this game!!!" posts too much, they aren't particularly interesting. I agree that her reactions were decent to Gaiden's doublevote, and she did have the "why did Cho claim?" question that you had before you had it, which is additionally okay.

These reasons look weak
And none of these are scummy
This whole post is bad

I agree that the case isn't strong. I disagree that the push is scummy. Why is the push scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

Katsuki's is weird in that cho's directly trumps it. It would make especially little sense if he were scum, since then scum could quickhammer for an autowin only if they post before cho does.

Or, alternatively, they could quickhammer for an autowin if they shot Cho before Day 5.
In a game where different powers are activated on certain days, it makes sense to give scum the autowin opportunity at the first LyLo opportunity, especially with Cho's role existing (since acquiring that autowin safely requires both a perfect game and the identification of a town power role they presumably aren't informed about).

I also don't like how much of Katsuki's push on Cho is just nonsense (SCUMBIRDS), would be interested in hearing more about Captain America's townread there.

[Nachomamma8]

also i don't think cho really has 5 votes on d5

Why?

I agree with Muffin's reads, mostly. I don't think Katsuki is town. I have a townread on Kagami. I'm not scumreading lalala. I'm not scumreading farside.

Vote: Katsuki

[Nachomamma8]

Hi Sakura!

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with Muffin's reads, mostly. I don't think Katsuki is town. I have a townread on Kagami. I'm not scumreading lalala. I'm not scumreading farside.

Isn't that like half his reads... or more.

Out of 9 reads given, I agree with 6.
I'm not mad for Corpse Party. Again, the wagon on me was fair enough except for the BRO is scum for lurking bits.

[Nachomamma8]

Eh, i just thought your reactions were similar to those in Pick your poison, i said as much in the neighborhood which is why Mika switched gears, but anyway enough about that game.
Why do you townread Kagami?

I like that Kagami's approach to the game is very similar to mine thus far and I think the way she's approached the game thus far does feel like she's trying to solve the game. I don't think she's done anything unfakeable or anything that's ridiculously unlikely to be coming from scum, so she's not a level of townread that Cho or Brian would be.

this is super guttish, but I expected at least a passing shout-out/welcome/acknowledgement to me at game start since we just met up a few weeks ago I RVSed him and I've had substantial game presence and I'm excited to be playing with him and I feel he should reciprocate that.

I have a stronger tendency to reach out/be social when I have time to be properly integrated in the game. I don't think I'm any more/less likely to be friendly when scum, but that might be incorrect?

I feel like, even with my limited knowledge of Katsuki, I could find examples of him just going totally off the reservation as town on D1. I'm not saying that makes him town, but I feel like that's pretty null and especially null for him. My first reaction if I wanted to probe Katsuki would be more of a "the hell you on about with SCUMBIRDS?" (in fact, Katsuki, consider that question asked) rather than to say his push (if you can even really call it that) is scummy

The main reason I'm pushing him is because of how I expect his role would fit in on a scumteam and that role's interaction with Cho's (who I very strongly believe is telling the truth and is town). I agree that Katsuki sometimes says crazy shit as town, and, as a result, gets away with making pushes as scum that are very obviously scum-motivated. I see scum-motivation behind his push. I see why he would have the role he does as scum. He is my strongest scumread as a result.

[Nachomamma8]

also i don't really think "why scumbirds?" is a productive line of questioning
i agree with the sentiment behind the whole "d5 quintuple voter and d5 double voter are kind of weird as town together" line of reasoning, i just trust in cho-town more quickly than katsuki-town

[Nachomamma8]

Who should I vote?

I need to learn to play mafia again.

sheep captain america
you have a good hydra dynamic with him, i'm sure using him as your sounding board can only result in good things

[Nachomamma8]

The main reason I'm pushing him is because of how I expect his role would fit in on a scumteam and that role's interaction with Cho's (who I very strongly believe is telling the truth and is town). I agree that Katsuki sometimes says crazy shit as town, and, as a result, gets away with making pushes as scum that are very obviously scum-motivated. I see scum-motivation behind his push. I see why he would have the role he does as scum. He is my strongest scumread as a result.

Not digging it

VOTE: Nacho

You're basically saying that you're willing to make the most broad of assumptions to fit this read:

1) Cho being totally on the level with a day 1 unsolicited claim (motivation to claim here is ???)
2) Same for Katsuki for the counterclaim
3) Katsuki having/being considerably more likely to be scum if Cho is town with aforementioned role
4) Knowing nothing/very little about what roles are in the game that could temper things in one direction or another
5) Somewhat related -- there are a lot of other doublevoter claims going around. I count 4. That's probably pretty damn important and should make you think twice about whether or not what has been presented is what is indeed going on here.

Also you think Katsuki's plan as scum when he finds an imminent threat in a town PR is to loltunnel him with essentially all bark and no bite and hope town just piles on?
I don't.

p-edit: k

no.

[Nachomamma8]

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not. If Katsuki is not telling the truth about his role, he's probably scum so I'm not really making assumptions there. I don't care about other doublevoters (why should I?). Yes, katsuki as scum would take this path as scum because he has before.

[Nachomamma8]

And yeah there's a lot of unknowns in the push in katsuki. It's a theory. I expect to solidify the read further when I push him.

[Nachomamma8]

Mostly I'm frustrated because instead of critically thinking about how I've been approaching the game so far you're pushing me for an imperfect push in a stage of the game where no one has actually formed anything even remotely solid

and you're pushing me despite the signals that say DO NOT PUSH which already are much much louder than they should be

[Nachomamma8]

LOL IM SO SORRY THAT YOU DREW SCUM NACHO

Cho is probably some strong power role, Nacho is his buddy. Muffin you wanna get this nacho wagon going again, except this time forreals?

@GIF: Go read the flavor FG posted in the signup thread, that flavor directly correlates with SCUMBIRDS

Why do you think Cho and you can't both be town? Why do you think Cho would lie about quintuple voter when it's confirmable on Day 5?

[Nachomamma8]

Fakegod marry me please

[Nachomamma8]

I will be murdering the Prime Minister of Malaysia in the next 24 hours.
As such, my presence in this game will be limited. I deeply regret this fact, although I am fairly excited to kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia.

[Nachomamma8]

if you mean what i didn't like about your entrance, it's mostly the things you chose to comment on. for example, one thing that felt awkward about it was why you chose that specific post to quote - you quoted someone giving a bunch of reads and only commented on one. did you agree with the rest of the reads, or why did you specifically comment on the mac read? why didn't you address any mac posts directly? why did you vote sakura?

I agree that the post was strange in that it seemed like strange things to zero in on specifically, but it wasn't abnormal enough to send up a red flag nor did I really see any reason why that weirdness would come out as scum over town (although I didn't her reaction to being questioned on the Sakura vote by GiF).

if you mean what i didn't like about your reasoning for voting mac, it's mostly the lack of motivation analysis. the things you picked at aren't really scummy, even taking into account it's early times (aaand that second point doesn't even accurately describe the post you quoted soooo). like, why can't town scoff at a wagon? why is "defensiveness" scummy? how exactly do you address accusations without being defensive? why is calling something forced scummy?

I don't really see how failing to push for motivation analysis is scummy if the player doesn't generally do motivation analysis in general. I mean yes, I agree with you that the things farside brought up typically aren't things I look for when scumhunting, but I don't think farside would bring that type of stuff up unless she would also find it reasonable enough as town or she had a reason she could get away with it.

it is at least the biggest thing that's stood out to me so far although i'm kind of interested in why you disagree. what did you like about it?

I liked the aggressive tone, and I liked the shift from Sakura to Mac. The aggressiveness that I specifically liked was the bits added in #169 and #172, especially where Mac responds to one of her points, she acknowledges the validity of his rebuttal and then goes "You're still scum for X", which strikes me as something unlikely to be coming from scum early game. I liked the shift from Sakura to Mac just because the push on Sakura seemed like something farside would be more willing to let ride for a little while as scum; I generally assign an early game reads switch a minor amount of towncred just because it's generally inconvenient to form multiple fake pushes so early in the game.

i take it this means you believe cupcake's claim. do you think that actually fits cupcake-scum's style? coz i'm thinking either it's a fake claim or he's doing something totally different to how i'd expect him to play as scum here (which isn't outside the realm of possibility for cupcake-scum, i guess, especially if he read my thoughts on his scum game in the last touhou game neighborhood PT, but eh)

i kind of think his push on cho looks more like how he'd approach it as town, actually

I've recently come to terms with not being able to read Cupcake anywhere beyond "utterly terribly", but I'll read your thoughts on him in the neighborhood and get back to you on that.

What do you think of his more recent push on me? I don't think where he's coming from in his observation is unreasonable (last time I pushed him as town there was a considerably larger amount of energy behind the push), and it doesn't really feel like how he pushed me in Through The Looking Glass although, again, not really confident in my ability to read differences in his play based on recent failures.

why?

It didn't really seem like the normal, obvious-trolling fakeclaims that I've seen coming from him in the past.
Why do you think he's lying as town?

[Nachomamma8]

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not.

I guess I take umbrage at basing your biggest push on this and very little to do with anything Katsuki's really done (other than what I consider fluffposting). I don't know what claims are true and what ones aren't (as I said, I

partially

believe Cho's claim) but I feel that this is an incredibly rigid view of the gamestate given how much hypothetical-town-Nacho should actually know at this point, and this is coming from someone who likes to smell test claims for balance in general.

I'm backing off because you asked me to but it still bothers me after a night to think it over.

Show me what you mean when you say Katsuki's done this before.

The part that particularly doesn't make sense to me is that you have an issue with my biggest push having a lot to do with a prediction on how the setup is set up as opposed to play when we are very earlygame and no one has really done anything particularly alignment-indicative (at least during the point where I'm writing thing). I don't understand why you think I have a rigid view of the gamestate based on a push that I'm making based on current beliefs (which, contrary to popular belief, are not completely set in stone, they are just what I believe currently). It's not like I believe absolutely nothing else has a reasonable chance of being true. I don't understand why scum!me would have less information than I currently have, that actually doesn't make any sense.

As for the "done this before" comment, this is the style of push that I'm referring to. Katsuki makes a weak push, people start to pick up on it, Katsuki makes it a complete push. I fully believe that if Katsuki was scum and people followed him on his Cho suspicion, he would have pushed it a lot farther than he ended up pushing it.

I see typically a lot of town react to votes vs scum that non react or scoff at things.

Did you originally notice that Mac was talking about the wagon on himself? I thought your initial response to his rebuttal implied that you didn't.

Why would scum-brian claim D5 IC under very little pressure?

Dunno, but he clearly didn't read the OP, otherwise he'd have gone for a more credible fake claim.

I don't really understand this. Am I missing something obvious? :/

[Nachomamma8]

I sorta wanna call this town because for their first content post it's not that bad. I don't really agree with a lot of the reads and there's no reasoning there.

If you don't agree with the majority of the reads and you don't like the reasoning, why do you think it's "not that bad" for a first content post?

So notscience hasn't really impressed me at all and this is a pretty shit vote imo. Basically null leaning scum.

Calling the vote a shit vote seems like a pretty strong sentiment defending someone who really hasn't done anything yet. Why do you think Gaiden is town?

I don't think the push on Kagami for picking on posting etiquette is unreasonably at all; I would probably suspect Kagami if the push itself made it was more than just a feeler push.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami's frustration at the farside-Kagami argument in 323 feels very real.

@Mac: Agree; I'm guessing scum probably hopped on Nacho after my vote between (Katsuki, regular-Muffin, lala)

I have no real way to qualify that statement any further at this point; it's probably something to come back to later.

This post in particular reminded me that one of the things I don't like about Katsuki's push on me is that he's continuing pushing me despite the "don't push me" signals. He's seen my scum game and how I respond to pressure when scum, and that most definitely isn't it.

I give no fucks about 272 after that shit post that was 270. The premise of all his assumptions and subsequent conclusion of me being scum were construed piles of shit, and something that is more typical of NACHOSCUM. I've been pushed by both nachoTOWN and nachoSCUM before as town and I know the differences by now.

My premise that you-Cho's roles probably didn't both exist together on Day 5 was bullshit?
Because that's the main premise, and that's a premise that you originated.

Nacho treating my claim as if it's 100% guaranteed true is kind of... lol.

VOTE: Nacho

Normally I'd be squicked by the wagon speed, but I just tried that tactic to qualify my reads as scum, so I'll force myself not to be.

?

I think the Nacho wagon is pretty awful and Kats could be doing the same thing he got away with in the last Alice game.

It most certainly feels that way.

I think the Nacho wagon is pretty awful and Kats could be doing the same thing he got away with in the last Alice game.

lol have you read any of nachos posts and have you read mine? I don't know how you can draw any comparisons between the two.

When's the part where you get into specifics instead of just vaguely but confidently attacking my posts?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm saying town you wouldn't have a clear enough picture to make a push on setup spec right now.

I very often make pushes when I don't have a very clear picture because the pushes themselves create more information, setup spec or not. I still don't think that is an unreasonable approach.

And in a game with a ton of people you've played with before, you're just picking a really weird and mechanics oriented push. It lacks any confirmed basis in reality and I think its obvious that I think its weird, and instead of really engaging with me you're taking potshots at me and trying to drag me down into semantics when it should be really fucking obvious to you that I'm town.

And, again, you keep calling it a really weird and a really unreasonable mechanics oriented push that lacks no basis in reality when it is a push before any players have done anything particularly scummy. If it was mid-game, it was later in early game, if it was late game, you're correct, I wouldn't have aired my theory because it would be a small theory and I wouldn't have things to fall back on. But, since it was early game, since I was already seeing similarities in Katsuki's push on Cho to his push as scum elsewhere, I didn't think it was unreasonable as a starting point and you're still not trying to demonstrate or explain why you found it unreasonable as a starting point.

I think you're town, but it doesn't mean I can't be frustrated with you not understanding my point when I've attempted to explain as clearly I could in several different ways. I don't understand why you're not understanding my point, and I have no idea how I'm supposed to fix it.

[Nachomamma8]

Also "no one has done anything alignment indicative" is like 100% not a thing I think you would say in any game ever

Nothing indicative of scum.

[Nachomamma8]

My reads are forming as I'm catching up, I'll make a readslist when I'm done.

[Nachomamma8]

391 by grapes feels town to me, good followup to the last post.

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not. If Katsuki is not telling the truth about his role, he's probably scum so I'm not really making assumptions there. I don't care about other doublevoters (why should I?). Yes, katsuki as scum would take this path as scum because he has before.

FTR, this was what I was seeing, too - scum making assumptions to qualify his reads?

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean.

The assumptions I'm making is that Cho is telling the truth and Katsuki's role as scum makes sense while both roles existing as town does not. If Katsuki is not telling the truth about his role, he's probably scum so I'm not really making assumptions there. I don't care about other doublevoters (why should I?). Yes, katsuki as scum would take this path as scum because he has before.

FTR, this was what I was seeing, too - scum explicitly making assumptions to qualify his reads?

You should put your vote back on Nacho.

I think this is the first time we've ever agreed on anything before.

I think you're scum now.

Funny, I had pretty much the opposite reaction. The posts Katsuki's made re:me on this page much more closely follow what I expect from Katsuki-town.

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

Actually if this is an onomatopoeia of me being blown away instead of what I thought it was then nvm its null

What did you think it was originally?

Hi.

Vote: notscience

These are currently my thoughts.
I don't feel great that this is currently my strongest and basically only scumread, but this is currently where I stand.

[Nachomamma8]

Cho scum trying to start a neighborhood purge early?

Do you honestly believe the words you're saying when you stare deep deep into your heart? To me, it seems beyond absolutely ridiculous that you would think that Cho-scum would seriously attempt to purge a neighborhood by going "oh, fakegod slipped and told me the exact composition of the neighborhood".

I dont like this

this feels like ate

this feels like trying to make him feel stupid for trying to get a better read on yo

this feels like scum

Do you think it's AtE because I expressed emotion or because you think where I'm coming from is unreasonable?

I don't like your suspicion on either me, Cho, or Kagami.

All three reads take one specific post out of an entire ISO and make it a read, which makes it seem like you're just digging up the bare minimum you need to justify reading someone whereas town-you's sorting process is generally much more organic and has a stronger tendency to reach out instead of just bullshitting an attack. I understand why you would specifically be looking for emotion in my posts and see it as Nacho!scum as a result, but it seems weird that you ignore the rest of my posts while doing that, and it seems weird that you ignored the context and avoided actually forming a push on me (the way you went about it felt like you were antagonizing the me/bork fight).

Your push on Cho is terrible terrible terrible because you ignored claims and pushes elsewhere, cherry picked a quote that seemed very obviously a joke, and used that to justify a vote down the road. I don't like the way you deal with his gifs toward you later. I understand where his side of it was coming from because picking on that joke and acting like he was using it as a scum tactic to purge a neighborhood is completely fucking ridiculous, but you shouldn't have been willing to let him just dodge that completely. In addition, why didn't you reach out to anyone else about that reasoning? Didn't you find it strange that FakeGod allegedly made such a ridiculous error and didn't acknowledge it at all in thread?

Your read on Kagami seems to be Kagami scumreading you for lurking and because she wanted more out of Natirasha but not out of me. That is also an absolutely terrible read, and is additionally another great example of you focusing in on one tiny part of a person's play in the game and using it to justify the read while ignoring everything else.

[Nachomamma8]

See

I tend to default nacho to scum >_>

I also intend to actually be good at this game!

I had hoped your response here would have some sort of followup ala "Nacho tends to show emotion more often as scum than town" or "his town meta is more aggressive than this". Your "I always scumread Nacho so Nacho is scum!" is usually a joke while calling me out for AtE is decidedly not that, so it doesn't make sense to respond to someone reaching out to you about a read with that old line.

Her posts came accross that way to me

This response is also pretty lacking.

As to why there were no comments from me about your post... did I even post in between your two walls?

[Nachomamma8]

talk to me about where you're at with nati, lala, grapes and fake-muffin

I'll talk about the other three happily, but I'd rather you talk about where you're at with nati first if that's OK.
Could you also look into Mac in depth? I've been mostly underwhelmed by him so far when I wasn't expecting to be, so I'd be interested in your thoughts there.

[Nachomamma8]

lala

If I was forced to read her play from this game and this game alone, would still probably toss my hands up. The moving away immediately after threatened with death reaction is still pretty scummy to me, but I generally find the trolling with wild abandon attitude to be mildly townish at least. Then, looking into other games here and here and here and I find a completely different player and suddenly I am beyond incredibly uncomfortable with the slot and would lynch the hell out of it despite a couple of vaguely townish things here and there.

[Nachomamma8]

See, what I did in Paradise Lost didn't work. Town lost. I've decided to do something different.

Nothing? You think you can improve chances of town winning by doing nothing?

[Nachomamma8]

I think grapes is mostly town. Amount of content provided thus far is pretty good, his push on Kagami is pretty well-developed and there's nothing that he's said so far that really stands out in a scummy way for me. I would like explanation of his reaction to notscience's vote on gaiden (because it could possibly be a weird partner interaction) but I don't think things like his FUCK THE ESTABLISHMENT attitude wrt your haikus that everyone loved is a particularly big deal or implies scum.

Fake-Muffin is playing differently than I'd expect him to as scum. In particular, the "scum are afraid of pushing me when I'm obvtown" and "JUST A GAME COMRADE" phrases seem more town than not. I'd also be interested in GiF's read here because a large part of the read on him has to do with how different he's playing from than he did in AngryPigeon's micro game.

[Nachomamma8]

the thing with nati is i expected nati-as-scum to come into this game and do certain things that she's not really doing at the moment; those things would include appealing to certain players (like myself) and trying to make herself seem useful (either via giving 'insight' on the claims and what she thinks of the setup or by... doing pretty much anything other than what she's currently doing). but now i'm thinking virtually the opposite; maybe the reason she's not doing these things is because she knows i'm going to immediately pick up on what she's doing and the reason she's playing like she's currently playing is because she's really not sure how to approach this game in a way that wouldn't give away her alignment. the other end of the spectrum here is that she could just be town who's completely not in the game, and i could maaaaaybe see this being the case given things we've talked about recently re: her enthusiasm with mafia in general, but eh. i'm kinda interested in what her 765 was about and i want her to start posting more because if she's town, i want her to show me that, and if she's scum, i don't want her coasting by on virtually zero content

The attitude seems genuine; I liked in particular how she responded to my suggestion that she sheep you in that I think she'd be amendable to at least something that resembled something vaguely townish as scum. I don't think that she's doing this because she doesn't think she can play in a way otherwise without being caught, but it's entirely possible because she isn't really doing anything.

I was sort of uncomfortable with your "be more town" interactions with her earlier because I thought you'd be more aggressive in making her readable, but I see where you're coming from a bit better now.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: lalaladucks

i think this is probably the play for the day based on the "town lost in paradise lost" comment alone.
i still think notscience is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd like Mac to talk more about reads and things, but I don't particularly think he's scum after a skim there. I'm not sure where else I'm looking for scum, but I'll figure that out later.

[Nachomamma8]

That's nice.

Why are you voting Sakura?
Why don't you have any responses to what I brought up about your first wall?

[Nachomamma8]

See, what I did in Paradise Lost didn't work. Town lost. I've decided to do something different.

Nothing? You think you can improve chances of town winning by doing nothing?

@Lala: I know the wording of the questioning was harsh, but it seems odd to go from a productive playstyle to not really doing anything at all. I find it odd you would change your playstyle completely for this game because the tend of drive you had in figuring out the game in other completed games seems hard to lose completely.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I told her to stop and she didn't, and I'm not in the mood for this bullshit anymore.

Because my reads this game are entirely surface level? I'm in this space where I'm trying not to get emotionally attached to the game and it's making it difficult to actually /do/ things. Of course, this is entirely an excuse and will just be viewed as AtE, but frankly I have nothing really to say that isn't surface level. Yeah my reads are weak.

so, instead of voting someone for a reason that isn't alignment indicative in anyway whatsoever, why not just sheep me?

[Nachomamma8]

@Lala: I know the wording of the questioning was harsh, but it seems odd to go from a productive playstyle to not really doing anything at all. I find it odd you would change your playstyle completely for this game because the tend of drive you had in figuring out the game in other completed games seems hard to lose completely.

The motivation to try harder will probably increase if I survive until the next Day.
If I'm gonna be lynched anyway, there's no point putting in heaps of effort now.

The question I'm asking you is why you think your current playstyle gives town a better chance to win the game.
I don't yet care about you putting in work now (although that's a pretty bad attitude to have). I'm currently asking you to explain the work you've put in so far.

[Nachomamma8]

so, instead of voting someone for a reason that isn't alignment indicative in anyway whatsoever, why not just sheep me?

Because she needs to stop?

and so,
instead of discussing how her behavior offends and bothers you and promoting a useful discussion that might even help your interactions,
you are voting her
because that is a better line of action

[Nachomamma8]

i don't think you'll be allowed to self-target
and that makes me happy

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Notscience

Drunk revelations. With me, Muffinman!

[Nachomamma8]

I'm still not really comfortable unvoting notscience. What he's shown he's capable of doing as scum is writing a lot of words in a wall and tell people to vote whoever he's decided to scum read, which is essentially what he's done this game. I don't like that his read on Cho is "Cho said at one point of the game that he was going to town block and then he didn't describe his town reads" plus some filler crap based on the interaction with Bork and I don't like how the entirety of his posts after the wall are simply "I'm town" and "vote Cho" aaand not much of anything else. Notscience's game has improved beyond the point where things like these are towntells for him and I really don't see anything in his ISO that makes me think town. Why do you think he's more town than not, muffin?

[Nachomamma8]

Yea seeing him post elsewhere on days he is online and not posting here looks super town.
Wtf was I thinking.

On Friday I posted in this game.
On Saturday I posted in this game.
On Sunday I didn't post on site.

[Nachomamma8]

I would vote Nati if I was directed there by Muffin because I still trust his ability to read her more than I trust mine and I don't think there any any things in her play that I'm seeing that he just isn't.

Gun to my head, I'd still lean on the side of Nati being town, though.

[Nachomamma8]

When lalala ended up seeming town after she brought up the whole "I am only playing this way because my play doesn't make an impact on the game as a whole" and after her actual reads list wall and attacks directed towards you is because the only reason I could see her playing the way she played the game earlier as scum would be because she actually just couldn't fake the things in her town game normally, but then her play after that point showed a wide range of things she could fake as scum if scum here, so unless she suddenly found inspiration for some fantastic scum game that was in her heart along, I don't think she'd approach a scum game quite like this

[Nachomamma8]

i disagree with the notion that she could (or rather, would) have done it all along, but i mostly agree with the conclusion

i've got to leave for work in a little bit but i'll phone post when i'm on breaks

in the mean time, i wanna know where your head is at with other reads

Going underground, will post more when I have service

[Nachomamma8]

I will hammer! I want to catch up with some stuff right quick first.

[Nachomamma8]

Since I know FakeGod is going to be on the whole thread locking thing.

[Nachomamma8]

do you think the attitude he's displaying in this game is how he plays as scum?

Yes, very much so. I think that notscience as scum tends to latch onto something that he finds pretty pushable and then push it as hard as he can, which is what he attempted to do with Cho earlier in the game. I think that his thought processes tend to come out a lot less organically than they do as town and instead usually just dwell in his big walls while the rest of his posts are fluffing or asking people for votes, which also matches up with his play here.

do you think the attitude he's displaying in this game is how he plays as scum when being wagoned?

Also, yes. I don't think notscience is deathly afraid of being wagoned, I think that the reason he flagged so much in the game you linked was because two of his scumpartners (including friend Sakura) were lynched and he was under suspicion and suddenly chances of going deep in the game dropped considerably. I do think it takes a lot of effort for him to post in scumgames (hence why his scumgame is easier to pick out than others), and he probably decided that it just wasn't worth putting in the effort.

actually, what i most liked about the wall he made wasn't so much the cho argument but a lot of the other stuff he was saying

Like what? The other thing I remembered from his wall was his read on me/Katsuki which was "one of these could be scum but maybe not" which I also absolutely hated, but I can't say I remember anything other than that.

[Nachomamma8]

1241

[Nachomamma8]

Like what?

[Nachomamma8]

Katsuki- Don't think hes scum with nacho, both could be town

Nacho- ^ but swap nacho for katsuki

mmmmmm

[Nachomamma8]

he also keeps making references to PvZ, which isn't something I've yet seen him do as town but he's doing here and he did in the scumgame you linked

[Nachomamma8]

and, in the wall, specific points I didn't like:

There's also 266, where she ask's bork's opinion on her claim. I don't see why town-her would care let alone highlight a claim and ask if people believe it. It looks like scum testing the waters.

Cho already claimed.
I don't see how Cho already claiming and getting people to comment on said claim could possibly qualify as "testing the waters".

I liked reaching out to Nati, I like the constant reachouts and that he's willing to give Nacho space when asked (whereas scum-him has no incentive, he could just keep pushing nacho). I like his vote on me (wat) in that it was telegraphed. It wasn't like he was pushing someone and that got shut down hard, he called me out on not being productive and when I still continued he voted me and he has games to back up his stance.

He also keeps trying to make sure I don't just hide in the lurkmass, which shows more "town trying to pidgeonhole a scumread" instead of "scum trying to shove a lynch on a lurker"

these are all very easy observations to make, but there are still problems in a few of them (why is bork giving me space when asked a town thing? does scum-bork really think attacking town-nacho after he softclaims a PR is something that's going to end well for him?). he "voted for me for not being productive and had games to back up his stance" is also a ridiculously ridiculously shallow observation and not how I see town-notsci approaching a vote on him at all. The lurkmass reason is also nebulous and reasonless.

the rest of his wall follows that.
he calls Brian town for "centering his game around core reads", which means nothing. he calls gif maybe town for not letting Sakura run wild and then calls Oversoul maybe scum for leading a wagon near deadline.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't know what the significance of that is but a quick ctrl+f of his most recent completed town games shows he mentioned it in both

in that scumgame he mentioned it as an awkward self-conscious thing, as in "oh I did this in PvZ oh no" whereas those two references weren't that
i wasn't aware he constantly talked about that game though, just something i noticed

[Nachomamma8]

but
just some things to think about if you survive the night and i don't

i don't really have any other special special reads i feel good about

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nati

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not overly attached to the noddy read but i think you're seeing things that aren't necessarily there

okay!

[Nachomamma8]

Do you have no other game thoughts other than notscience, nacho?

i have no other game thoughts that i have the drive to put in the thread right now when i have other games i need to catch up on

[Nachomamma8]

I would be willing to bet the kill was more motivated by Cephrir's inheriting of the slot.

Ehhh what? Bork was universally townread. I'm willing to be that's why the slot was killed

True, but I think it goes deeper than that. In the neighborhood PT, Cephrir said something to the effect that he would be able to quickly and accurately read ooba.

Ooba isn't normally a difficult read to make.
It seems strange that Cephrir would be killed because of his ability to read him, and more likely that the slot was killed because universally town read + error.

[Nachomamma8]

So a lot of things happened. Don't have computer access so not gonna do a formal catch up until probably after the weekend but I'm pretty up to date on things.

Gonna shamelessly reverse my kagami and notscience reads to firmtown and nulltown respectively. My town read on gaiden has more or less drifted to null.

I think lynching between mac/ooba/brian/katsuki in order from 'yes plz' to 'maaaybish' is what I wanna do today.

Why do you have a town read on notscience?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: notscience

[Nachomamma8]

do you think nati was bussing him or how does this play into your read?

I do think Nati would bus there. I don't think Nati would be shy about placing an early vote on a scumpartner, and I don't think she would be comfortable when taking it off once notscience got a bit of pressure. I really dislike that notscience continues to do jack shit (which, again, is alignment indicative), and I hate that he's just letting me get away with pushing him the way he is.

It makes me sad you and Kagami disagree with this read. I can't see myself pushing or caring about anything else until as long as notscience breathes and continues not to be town.

[Nachomamma8]

I still think Notty and Oversoul are most likely town.

you know that i'm going to ask you why you have a townread on notscience, right?

[Nachomamma8]

vanilliaizer sucks big time
but it makes sense

[Nachomamma8]

also, i don't think i like nacho

why?
i very much needed a jumping off point to interact with you and lo and behold, i found it

[Nachomamma8]

i think your sole focusing on notty and not on anyone or anything else is detrimental to the town and not really coming from a town mindset. you don't seem to be scumhunting, all you seem to be doing is trying your best to ensure notty ends up with rope around his neck. that doesn't feel like town!nacho to me, it's not the nacho I know and love

who ever it was who said *crosses fingers* when nati was hammered might be scum. checking back, it was oversoul. which doesn't surprise me. it felt fake as fuck, like "look how town I am hoping for a scum lynch!"

i'm focusing on notty as much as i am because i'm one of the only people scumreading him, i think that notty-scum plays worse when all the focus is put on him, and i think it's going to take a while to eat away at notscience townreads and so me constantly popping up and reminding everyone that hey, he's still scum and he's still not doing shit is going to be fairly important if i ever want to get him lynched. I also think that he, as town, has very town responses to pressure (and the more pressure, the townier the response).

[Nachomamma8]

time

[Nachomamma8]

why is my focus on ns "detrimental to the town"?

[Nachomamma8]

when have you ever needed a 'jumping off point' to interact with me?

not very often, if ever

[Nachomamma8]

why did you need one here

the underwhelmed without really knowing why feeling
why does needing one make me scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Seemed to me that ns was under significant pressure as the leading wagon heading to deadline. You don't think his behavior was town-indicative?

a bit, yeah

[Nachomamma8]

I'm interested in the ooba slot as well, I'm not overly impressed by his entrance.

[Nachomamma8]

If BS is telling the truth about being vanilla-ized, I'd be extremely surprised at FG if nacho were scum.

(not explaining why)

See I have no idea what you're getting at here but reasons like these make me think town in addition to good production this game

[Nachomamma8]

And I'm not used to having you as one of my strongest town reads, but, here you are!

[Nachomamma8]

I'm having flashbacks to when sakura used to replace out when being wagoned and people would just run her up to see what she did

So that's kinda making me think this is town-nacho but at the same time its getting rather old.

ok ok ok so maybe my push was incorrect but I will point out that I deal with "X isn't doing enough" a hell of a lot more than you do

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho

When you're around, tell me what you currently think of cupcake

You know I love you
But I don't have anything insightful to say about cupcake. I see that he forgot about his scum read on me. I see a pretty opportunistic hop on still more likely than not town. I see a reason for someone to vanillaize Brian. I lost a scum suspect recently and he was middling/not that town earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm glad the TTH wagon disappeared, it kinda sucked.
I'm disappointed it disappeared in favor of another wagon that also sucks.

I'm going my own way again!

Vote: grapes

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know if I'm still drunk or if every post I read today is just weird as fuck

[Nachomamma8]

I don't have a strong preference for either wagon, and I don't have a particularly strong read either way (surprising, right???). As it stands, I'm going to vote Katsuki. If Katsuki is a confirmable town role, I will stop voting Katsuki.

Vote: Katsuki

[Nachomamma8]

Some bullshit to not fullclaim when you claimed IC and youre probably dead.

Why would he fullclaim?

[Nachomamma8]

Well time to claim Nightingale.

Obviously I'm not claiming my role ability.

I doubt this very much for role related reasons. Probably scum hoping for a counterclaim.

If you actually have information, claim it.

[Nachomamma8]

People that are IC's who dont do anything but lurk because they are conftown are dumb.

P-edit: Baiting a CC.

Why would he fullclaim?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Salamence

[Nachomamma8]

Hes on the lynching block and even if you switched wagons to me and lynched me, scum would most likely kill Kats tonight

So?

[Nachomamma8]

Well time to claim Nightingale.

Obviously I'm not claiming my role ability.

I doubt this very much for role related reasons. Probably scum hoping for a counterclaim.

If you actually have information, claim it.

I am in a neighborhood thread titled "birds" and katsuki is not a member of my PT.

This isn't good enough to mean we still don't need a counterclaim

[Nachomamma8]

You seriously want someone to CC IC if there is one!?!?

THIS IS FUCKING BAITING

that would be the optimal play, yes

[Nachomamma8]

tth Avon has iter garbagey, no

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: grapes

hell
yes
grapes

[Nachomamma8]

TTH, you can sit all day on a muffin wagon that really really isn't going to happen, or you could talk with me and we could compromise and we could make something good happen during our time. Today is not the day to be stubborn, especially when you only have to convince one person to create a super viable wagon

[Nachomamma8]

But why are you revealing it Cho, if it's true? Will scum not kill you before D5 now?

Because I'm town.

And, assuming Brian is telling the truth (as he should know that this town should absolutely not settle for "oh I just didn't want to get ML'ed" if he's actually choosing to fakeclaim a role like Innocent Child as scum), if scum doesn't think they can sell me as part of a small scumteam that needs an extra kill or something outlandish like that, then it'll be good to lock in two obvious nightkill choices and see how the game plays out based on who they decide needs to die more.

Muffin, sorry if I make you repeat a bunch of stuff you already said about TTH, I will look back and maybe find what I'm looking for later, but do you really think this claim was scum-motivated? This one seemed like the really obvious trying to bait a nightkill type claim whereas Brian's "oh I was vanillaized" day after claiming D5 Innocent Child or confirmable role or whatever (after nightingale and two D5 vigs became confirmed to exist) is a hell of a lot sketchier, don't you think?

[Nachomamma8]

i sincerely fucking doubt she's town. it looks more like she's trying to do something akin to what sakura did earlier this game to alleviate the pressure

It's obvious this was her intent from her very first post. Just because she's not holding up a purple and pink sign saying "HEY GUYS I'M CHANGING MY PLAYSTYLE AND ALSO MY FEELINGS ARE FRAGILE SO DON'T SCUMREAD ME" doesn't mean it's not still right in front of you.

Fuck you fuck you fuck you muff if you're town because if you are you know you're fucking better than this and you need to step the fuck back from this stupid-ass push. If you're scum just keep digging the pit because my vote is not changing unless you give me something even close to remotely acceptable wrt Sakura and why I'm somehow supposed to be townreading her.

I see Cho being an ass for essentially no reason at all as something that comes from her town game more often, unfortunately. I think pushing you as scum for pushing a "you should know better" read isn't a bad way to read you.

[Nachomamma8]

also, if you think TTH is town, tell me who you think the most likely scum candidate is on this wagon

grapes and Brian Skies!

[Nachomamma8]

literally nothing she's written so far has wowed me in any way, shape or form. she's given a combined total of two whole scum reads (unless i'm forgetting something somewhere) and talked about only two people in this player list (the scum reads) in depth (and i'm not even really sure if she still thinks one of them is scum). i don't think those pushes are all that great, either

This assertion is 100% correct, unfortunately. I don't think this is a strong scumtell for her (can't talk about why), I think Cho-posting before Cho disappeared down the old dusty trail was town, I think Cho-claim was town, and I think TTH's frustration and weird speculation makes her more likely town than not.

[Nachomamma8]

So I think I don't really want to lynch outside of grapes/Gaiden/Mac/Brian. TTH, what do you think of that?

[Nachomamma8]

to be clear, do you think he's scum with that role or do you think he's scum who just made up the entire thing?

At first I thought he was making it up, but FakeGod doing that thing before says likely the truth and if he was scum with that role he would have to had a buddy who vanillaized him which is a gigantic stretch so meh

[Nachomamma8]

also didn't really like the fact he was pushing that angle yet refusing to explain what exactly he thought was town about lala's play at the time. at the time, lala had done virtually nothing; pushing the "you should know better" angle felt like a load of shit, tbh

I don't think unwillingness to explain anything is indicative of anything other than Cho approaching the game with a shitty attitude, which I think is reflected in the notscience responses and the responses to you and the eventual replace-out.

[Nachomamma8]

i also don't really think brian's playing like scum

and on that note, i do think TTH is playing like scum who's pretty much accepted she's not making it to endgame and is trying to give as little information as possible

i could also see grapes as scum with TTH so i'm not entirely opposed to that wagon but meh

I'd expect TTH-scum to play like she did here if she was resigned to death in the near future. I think you would have been shot last night if she were actually scum.

[Nachomamma8]

And, I mean, it is my birthday today.
Can't you follow me into grapes for my birthday???

[Nachomamma8]

And not just me, but word on the street is Kagami also endorsed this wagon

[Nachomamma8]

katsuki is confirmed town btw

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you want to lynch TTH?
Why do you want to lynch Captain America?

[Nachomamma8]

Dude. No.

[Nachomamma8]

by the way, with all the softing you'd done early this game, i'm rather disappointed it was solely for a double-vote

I'm sorry!
I was going to do a bunch of hilarious crumbing and then claim that I was a king and then vote in giant rainbow text but then it turns out I wasn't as special as I thought it was and the wind went out of my sails.

I still have a double vote though!!!

why are you interested lynching the un cc'd nightingale?

He thought Katsuki retracting the claim was significant.

come on nacho

where's the hate you promised?

What are you expecting? My case on you is about as good as the case you have on me.
I can go "rawr rawr I have a gut read" but nothing more than that.

[Nachomamma8]

quack quack
i am not the eaglet

(wink wink)

[Nachomamma8]

Haven't read anything (yeah, yeah I'm awful) but I did see the claim. Flavor speculation (which the Queen of Hearts flipping town should tell you is bunk) aside, why is Oversoul of all people really loving the claim? He's one of the people who were yelling the loudest about the vanillaizer being scum and he thinks a roleblocker claim is just dandy?

this doesn't make any sense

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: TTH

Although I dint really know why you voted her here

[Nachomamma8]

You either, Lord oversoul.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and you talking about Natirasha. I can't tell if it was trying to set up for something in the future or if it was genuine suspicion of Natirasha.

We were the only two players with a significant interaction with Natirasha, yes. Why do you think that one of us has to be scum as a result? Don't you think Natirasha would make an effort to interact with both of us regardless of respective alignments since we are the people she knows best?

[Nachomamma8]

Don't really know why we are voting the roleblocker right now... Probably the only way to stop the kill.

I don't feel particularly strongly about the vote on grapes anymore. I don't know where I want to move it, either.

[Nachomamma8]

I want to lynch muffin but I cant tel if its because he has a grating personality or I think hes scum. I particularly dont like his gaidne/me stances

I don't think his gaiden stance is unreasonable. I don't know his stance on you, but a scum read on you also doesn't seem particularly unreasonable at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Big Mac,

What do you think of grapes after hearing his claim?
Who do you think is scum in our neighborhood? Why?
What do you think about TTH?
What do you think about lala?

[Nachomamma8]

and chirp tweet quack, you guys

remember XXXX?

(wink wink)

so the XXXX thing isn't happening then I guess

way to carry out Kag's dying wish guys

sigh

sorry I'm too lazy to go back to private topic and see what you're talking about

[Nachomamma8]

sad quack

[Nachomamma8]

Okay I know now! Don't you think it's a little late for that?

[Nachomamma8]

I voted TTH for the indirect attack on grapes/accusatory intent against me in the post I quoted.

I don't understand how either of these are scummy.
Because they weren't direct?

[Nachomamma8]

?

[Nachomamma8]

I can't give a proper answer to TTH's committing or lack of committing because I have no idea what her point was.
I thought you suspected zMuffinMan. Why follow him now?

Katsuki is confirmed town :/

[Nachomamma8]

I think Muffin is pretty town.
I'm most disappointed in the other muffin today, it was supposed to be my birthday today and he hasn't done jack shit.

[Nachomamma8]

Still don't really think he's scum, though. Contemplating a TTH vote despite townreading the slot because of a frustrating absence.

[Nachomamma8]

Contemplating a Mac vote for similar reasons, but also because that's the read in my heart that just won't quit.

[Nachomamma8]

Could also vote Gaiden, don't have confidence in it.

[Nachomamma8]

Not really townreading grapes.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: TTH

Vote Mac with me.

[Nachomamma8]

Alternatively, do something town that the rest of the game can see.

[Nachomamma8]

Eaglet, with me!

[Nachomamma8]

if tth flips scum that makes me super town right?

[Nachomamma8]

^.^

[Nachomamma8]

I'm still suspicious of grapes.
I'm still kind of suspicious of Mac.

[Nachomamma8]

Notscience flipping scum this game will make posting I'm this game much, much easier. I don't think town power is weak enough to justify 3 scum in the game. I have a lot of trouble seeing Muffin making last night's kill.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh actually gaiden-scum is a pretty solid choice for scum,

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a good quack!

[Nachomamma8]

Brian: what day were you vanillized

2?

Vote: Notscience

[Nachomamma8]

So what's the goss on the no kill?

Grapes!
Hopefully.

[Nachomamma8]

Grapes?

[Nachomamma8]

I love you. I'm sorry for all the pain I have ever caused you.

Vote: Mac

[Nachomamma8]

I agree!

[Nachomamma8]

Makes more sense numbers wise.

You should also claim who you're roleblocking so they can be confirmed town/strongman in the event of your death.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a day 3 doublevoter!

[Nachomamma8]

oversoul isn't a

bad

block

[Nachomamma8]

yeah

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Oversoul

[Nachomamma8]

oh hold on

just remembered that he led Nati's wagon

looool

UNVOTE:

Nati's wagon was counter wagon to not science's.

[Nachomamma8]

Although as soon as I make that vote, I'm not really sure it's a good one: two scum out of the neighborhoods with farside's rolecop mean that she has a 33% chance of hitting scum once neighborhoods are outed, which isn't ridiculous, but.

[Nachomamma8]

It's possible balance for that is the whole non-consecutive thing (it doesn't make sense to nerd the investigative if the only scum she can find is not science) since she can't really confirm anyone by role.

[Nachomamma8]

If there is scum in the neighborhoods still, it's Gaiden.

[Nachomamma8]

let's hear the impeccable logic that lead to that conclusion.

?

[Nachomamma8]

yeah I said that

[Nachomamma8]

People living from neighborhoods in me, you, Lala.
I don't really think Lala is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

no.

[Nachomamma8]

?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think there is only one scum left.

[Nachomamma8]

and i suppose sure maybe i can vote somewhere else just in case there's only one scum left but i haven't liked your play for a while

[Nachomamma8]

you've felt incredibly town in all games that i've played with you recently, just in this one, not at all

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think there is only one scum left.

That would mean 4 scum with two of them potentially having a way to add to their nightkills + a vanilla maker.

Yeah. No. Need to work on your instincts for design balance.

V/LA until next week (Wednesday)

Family wedding so I am traveling
It's the main reason I've been awol so much the past few weeks

A way to add to their nightkills that requires them to live until Night 5 and a vanillaizer that is linked with the neighborizer.

[Nachomamma8]

I agree scum need to have a backup.
I don't think the backup is in the neighborhoods because duh.

[Nachomamma8]

actually, wait.

Oversoul can't be the backup because blocked on Night 5.
I doubt Muffin is the backup because of claim.
Brian can't be backup because he was confirmed vanillaized N2.
Grapes has to be the person who doublekilled.

Vote: grapes

[Nachomamma8]

Scum no kill also makes much more sense with grapes-scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, not confirmed, but it seems pretty likely considering the neighborizer-vanillaizer flip + Brian claiming the neighborhood + vanillaize.

[Nachomamma8]

What makes you believe that it's unlikely to have happened?

[Nachomamma8]

was the conversation Brian posted (between him) and notty paraphrased?

think it'd have to be if it was legitimate but Brian didn't say... were we supposed to assume it was paraphrased

the thing

It was paraphrased, yes.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, not confirmed, but it seems pretty likely considering the neighborizer-vanillaizer flip + Brian claiming the neighborhood + vanillaize.

is that not easy to arrange in the scum PT at night though

Same question to you that I directed to Gaiden: why do you think it's unlikely that Brian is telling the truth?

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you feel the backup couldn't also be a neighbor? At the risk of sounding dumb I'll ask anyway, given the 'duh' you ended on you must have some pretty compelling reason why. Nati and Kagami both flipped N5 vig. Both were in a hood.

N5 vig was their only role. Every other town player has Day specific doublevoter as their only role. I think that doublevoter scum in the neighborhood will follow the same trend.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't get how you think I could be the back up vig or whatever and also blocked oversoul. You're also taking muffin and brian's claims at face value which is kinda :/

Muffin's claim can be proven pretty easily, hence taking it at face value.

For Brian's claim: why do you find it unlikely that he's telling the truth?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't get how you think I could be the back up vig or whatever and also blocked oversoul.

If you didn't block oversoul, you are scum.

[Nachomamma8]

They essentially get a free day because most likely we're lynching who I targeted if they don't get blocked and if they get blocked they're fucked anyway.

This logic doesn't apply if there are more than one scum remaining, which is what I'm currently working with.

[Nachomamma8]

Brian you're being as bad as nacho to try and justify yourself into an Oversoul lynch
Where are these suspicions coming from?

And if I'm seriously the only Vt in this game I'm gonna be so upset

They're probably coming from you not doing anything except talking about yourself :/

[Nachomamma8]

Like there's a pretty compelling towncase to be made for me anyway. I'm just waiting for someone with a town role PM to hop off their ass and make it because if I end up having to do it, you'll just discredit me to hell and back anyway because 'confbias.'

If it's good logic, I'd be happy to listen.

[Nachomamma8]

Either way, me being is almost 100% town guaranteed seeing as I was blocked by grapes and there were two kills last night. No matter how you slice it, how you envision the composition of the scum team, I cannot be scum and the game have two kills last night.

You can be scum if there is scum in the doublevoters that have an additional ability to just doublevoting, and you can be scum if there aren't scum in the doublevoters, as long as there are two scum.

Who do you think was responsible for the double kill?

[Nachomamma8]

Why would I bus Nati when there were so many viable options that day?

You might have thought that one of the townwagons were going to go through and thought that the Nati wagon was going to stall.
You might have bussed Nati instead of town because of the reason people normally bus.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean I'm not super familiar with fruit vendors. That's what he claimed right? Or something similar. I'm just not 100% sure confirming that he is that role would mean he's town. Was what I was getting at. I worded my post kinda weird there to be fair.

It would mean he's not the double-killer, which was the point I was trying to make.

1)assuming the number of scum left

I assume that there are 4 scum left because 3 scum means town could have mislynched twice and lynched scum once and they would have been in the same position of a mini normal who lynched scum D1, which seems kind of stupid to me even if town power is on the low end.

2)assuming there's one scum hooded one scum not(basically making your best guess at the setup(which, admittedly isn't too bad an idea, like, it kinda makes sense to me on paper as well))

I'm not necessarily assuming this.

3)and using that alone to push for my lynch

That's not why I'm pushing for your lynch.

The logic that has led me to pushing for your lynch is this:
1) The double-killer is not in the double-voters. I believe this because all of the town voters have had doublevoters and no other power, and there was already proven to be a bit of scum/town symmetry in the neighborhoods with the double N5 vigs.
2) Brian is unlikely to be the double-killer because of the interaction with NS. It makes sense for scum to target him with a vanillaize when he softclaimed PR in thread plenty.
3) Muffin is unlikely to be the double-killer because of the claim. I don't think Muffin claims a provable role as scum that he cannot claim because that's a very large risk and a very unnecessary one (since proving his role doesn't make him town).
4) Oversoul cannot be the doublekiller because he was blocked when the doublekiller acted, and circumventing that requires A) you being scum, which mean that the vote on you is fine anyways, or B) him being a super scum backup, which is something I would call a conspiracy theory at this point in time.

As a result, you are the most realistic person who could be the doublekiller.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm also having doubts on lala myself; Mac and I had an especially strong that there was scum in the neighborhood based on Kagami's death and then fake-Muffin's, and she's the only one left :/

I also sort of liked Gaiden's response to my earlier suspicion, but that's not like a crazy compelling point or anything.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm still thinking about some things since this game has taken some really weird turns recently. I'm still convinced Muffin is town, and he seems to think Nacho is town, so I'm just like, 'ok, whatever, Nacho can be town until I reread some things,' but I'm still paranoid about him. I've been wanting to lynch Lala for a while, but I'm a little concerned about Gaiden and I don't know why we should blindly follow anything Grapes says since he's probably not even town, especially since his "results" haven't done jack shit for us. Also, that Oversoul scumbag claimed VT and I don't know how much I want to believe FakeGod decided to include a single random vanilla role in a role heavy game. And I currently have this theory that he isn't one and that the extra kill isn't the result of N5 vig or scum backup, but that scum probably have a PGO or something and Farside accidentally suicided herself onto him.

I love you, I'm still mostly townreading you, but this post sucks monkey nuts.

Why do you think Muffin is town?
Why are you paranoid of me?
Why do you want to lynch Lala, and why does concern of Gaiden make you want to lynch her less?
Who is following grapes?

The vanilla point is bad, it's been done plenty and everywhere and there's no actual reason why it couldn't have been done here.

[Nachomamma8]

Either way, me being is almost 100% town guaranteed seeing as I was blocked by grapes and there were two kills last night. No matter how you slice it, how you envision the composition of the scum team, I cannot be scum and the game have two kills last night.

You can be scum if there is scum in the doublevoters that have an additional ability to just doublevoting, and you can be scum if there aren't scum in the doublevoters, as long as there are two scum.

Who do you think was responsible for the double kill?

Please write out what you think the composition of the last scum is (are) in your opinion.
It doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it.

GRAPES (scum goon)-OVERSOUL (scum backup)
BRIAN SKIES (backup)-OVERSOUL (goon)
ZMUFFINMAN (backup) -OVERSOUL (goon)

GAIDEN (D1 Doublevoter, N5 Backup) - OVERSOUL (goon)
LALALA (D1 Doublevoter, N5 Backup) - OVERSOUL (goon)

[Nachomamma8]

I really have no idea how this is so hard to understand.

[Nachomamma8]

Or why you somehow lack the ability to answer my question.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho. I am confirmed to be not the backup or else there couldn't be two kills last night.

Unless grapes is scum.
I've been saying this the entire time.

[Nachomamma8]

I think one of the double voters has to be a backup. No way that all double voters are town.

So you believe there are three scum? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

so yeah

[Nachomamma8]

i can't say i understand what scum have been doing for most of the game

[Nachomamma8]

which is what turns me off pretty strongly from muffinman scum

[Nachomamma8]

nacho who do you think is scum?

i really should have an answer to this
i really don't

[Nachomamma8]

no lynch isn't a bad idea actually

[Nachomamma8]

forces mafia to clear someone else

[Nachomamma8]

we have 2 lynches to work with + information gained from grapes
no lynching now forces a grapes kill or gives extra information

i'm happy with either

[Nachomamma8]

i'll play chicken, i don't give a fuck

[Nachomamma8]

i will make scum give me more info if i have to

[Nachomamma8]

and i need two more people following me to make it happen aka gaiden and brian?
l

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: No Lynch

thank you!

[Nachomamma8]

yeah i just wanted to be #1 on the wagon

[Nachomamma8]

i just don't give a fuck anymore about trying to figure out what's been going on with the kills this game so fuck it, i don't actually care

amen brother
amen

[Nachomamma8]

"There is scum in the double voters" is an assertion that came out of nowhere and is supported by nothing. It is dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

His Lala townread felt more like avoiding the wagon, and I found it interesting that when pressed on his reasons for thinking she was probably town, he didn't actually point to anything that made me think he actually felt that way.

How did my Lala town read feel like avoiding the wagon and what does that even mean? Do you really think I can't fake a town case on a townie as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

He also didn't remove his Grapes vote when he was supposedly considering that Lala could be scum.

I don't even know why this is supposed to be a scumtell.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, his behavior here in response to my interest in no killing seems rather cooperative and I was expecting a reaction similar to yours or Toothy's in that not everything might be as it seems, or in your case, that I'm scum trying to take advantage of this opportunity and get more kills.

This additionally makes absolutely no sense. You think it's unreasonable for me to agree with your no kill because paranoia is the only acceptable response? I lack direction. Forcing additional information via no lynching seems like a good idea.

Accusing me of uncharacteristic lack of direction when everyone else lacks direction is additionally bleh.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't really understand where you're coming from in your case. on me at all and I wonder why it's a weird paranoia that's centered on me specifically.

[Nachomamma8]

Grapes, I'd definitely consider Muffin over Gaiden for reblock, considering the whole fruit thing.

[Nachomamma8]

Gaiden still seems like a shitty lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

And no lynch still seems like a far superior action when no one has any actual cases.

[Nachomamma8]

Or reasons, really.

Oversoul's recent vote is essentially him tossing his hands up and going "good enough!". That type of apathy is how towns get steamrolled by garbage.

[Nachomamma8]

No lunches are just as shitty for apathy though.

When they are trying to get a lynch by deadline and not quite making it, sure. I disagree that no lynch would be bad in this particular scenario; I think a no lynch is equivalent to some good old fashioned rest and relaxation that this thread so sorely needs. And also another clear!