Micro 447: Shameless Mafia -- Game Over!

[TierShift]

Hi guys
Due to past extremely negative experiences with ArcAngel, I've contemplated not playing this game, but in the end have decided on playing. I might replace out if I regret my decision, though. Jsyk.

VOTE: shos
U gon get rekt

[TierShift]

VOTE: Anene

inb4 they vig conftown. Lol

Link pls

[TierShift]

That was one of the most blatant crumbs I've ever seen, lol.
I hear anen's scumgame is good, though.

[TierShift]

I approve

[TierShift]

who sheeps who??

[TierShift]

lol can we lynch dodgy first?

[TierShift]

Is the thought process behind 23 contradictory to the thought process behind 21?

Find out next post!

[TierShift]

Yes

[TierShift]

This would have been 1000x better with actual pagetop

[TierShift]

So, what do you actually believe? That it is unreasonably unlikely for me to talk about a townie's scum meta in my scum QT or that it is what actually happened and that I'm admitting to it right now?

[TierShift]

Funny, you seemed to think I was admitting to being scum with dodgy before. Why would I want to see him lynched before me?

[TierShift]

VOTE: alchemist

[TierShift]

^Are you actually admitting to being scum with Dodgy?

You thinking that I'm admitting to being scum with dodgy contradicts you thinking I want him lynched because he's town.

[TierShift]

You're avoiding my question. Did you or did you not believe I was admitting to being scum with dodgy?

[TierShift]

Then why did you say you did in #23?

As for the answer to your question, long or short version?

[TierShift]

Then why did you say you did in #23?

As for the answer to your question, long or short version?

I didn't say you were; I asked if you were.

Long version should be a more detailed explanation, so let's go with that.

Actually, no, long version comes after anen responds. It's mostly theory talk, though.

If I get it right, you are saying that your vote in #24 wasn't because you were scumreading me for claiming scum with dodgy in #23?

[TierShift]

yeah so tier is likely scum.

Because?

[TierShift]

I used to be against flavourclaiming but as of recently I don't really care for it anymore either way.

[TierShift]

Do you believe I slipped being scum with dodgy? Why are you then not treating dodgy as scum?

[TierShift]

I also think Tiershift's avoiding answering Alchemist's posts and also misrepresents him. Eg. in 37 he posted "You're avoiding my question. Did you or did you not believe I was admitting to being scum with dodgy?" – however it was clear that Alchemist didn't believe that I'm right.

except in 23 and 24 he

does

imply that he's believing your story because of my post.

[TierShift]

I get that now. I thought he was voting me for what he said in 23, that I admitted to being scum with dodgy. That is why I thought he was scum; I thought he changed his story after first not believing you.

I know your scumgame is good because I saw it nominated for a scummy. I (closely) follow the nominations, as is evidenced by my egopost in that specific thread. That is the reason I knew it; it would be nonsensical to talk with a scumbuddy about every townie's scum meta.

[TierShift]

Alchemist is town, btw.

VOTE: dodgy
he probably isn't.
Come in and talk, boy.

[TierShift]

Alchemist, here is the explanation you wanted.
In this game (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=60039), I decided to progress RVS quicker by going along with the obvious gambit, essentially lying up to page 3/4. That turned out very well. I got some reads off it, RVS ended quickly and it was a perfect town win.

I was pretty content with how I played that RVS there and tried to do something as to elicit a reaction from anen. I was under the assumption anen's case would not be followed (as it is pretty ridiculous), so I felt safe to portray myself as 'caught scum', posting throwaway remarks instead of responding, in the hopes of egging anen on and seeing what would happen. From town-him, I'd expect outrage over how I obviously avoided his case. From scum (I don't say scum-him as I don't have meta on that), I'd rather expect a somewhat grumpy response as others laughed at his case (which incidentally is part of the reason I'm townreading you, alchemist).

In the end, it did not turn out this way, as I am being wagoned. I do think my 22 was fruitful, though; I'm reasonably confident in my townread on you and I've found probable scum awkwardly jumping on my wagon. I also feel somewhat happy about the guy with the weed avatar.

As for why I shouldn't be voted for my #22: I could have very, very easily just outright said why I heard anen's scumgame was good. Attracting attention to myself instead has no scum motivation.

Alchemist, will you join me on dodgy? He's quite dodgy.
P-edit: wow that's quite a lot hehe

[TierShift]

Anen, ask yourself this:
1. How likely is it that I talked with my scumbuddy about a random townie's scum meta pre-game?
If you're having trouble answering this, take a look at a few scum PT's and look what pre-game discussions entail.
2. How likely is it that I regularly check a thread that I proved I subscribed to?

[TierShift]

Btw add to #1 the chance that I actually drop something inthread that I learned in the current game's scum PT, lol. You can ask shos to assess this chance, he's played with scum-me.

[TierShift]

Shooooooos I want you in heeere

[TierShift]

The conversation between TierShift, Alchemist, dodgy56, and Aienen seems based on some meta reads?

Not really, actually. You should probably reread it. Do you get no reads out of it?

[TierShift]

thischristmas are you a whomping willow alt?

[TierShift]

Is that nomination in the 2014 thread or the 2015 thread?

I think it was 2015. Go check it if you don't believe me.

I hope you're still writing your response to my 63!

[TierShift]

Come vote with me!
Christmas feels relaxed, which is a decent towntell ime. Not a strong townread.
Anen is somewhat of a grey area. Me elaborating might lead to him changing his behaviour, so I'm not gonna. Atm.

[TierShift]

But you said you weren't satisfied with what dodgy has shown. Do something with your vote, at least.

[TierShift]

TierShift, seems a little scummy to me because of his reaction to Aneninen and Alchemist21 being too casual and all the required explanation

I did something with a plan behind it, that I explained afterwards. Why would doing something multilayered that advances the game make me scum?

Why do you think anen wouldn't attract attention to himself by making a case on another player as scum?

[TierShift]

I hope my other game starts soon. I post too much when I'm in nly one, lol.

Shos in here

[TierShift]

So far whenever I was scum, we discussed our knowledge about the other players.
As for your 2nd question, I don't know the answer. How on Gods' Green Earth would I know that?

Have you ever discussed about some townie's scumgame?

You don't think it's pretty likely that I regularly check a thread that I subscribed to for that specific intent?

Just take a step back and reevaluate. you're already doing associatives before a flip, which should show how far your head is up your arse.

[TierShift]

But... I'm thinking and...
...yes. What if my idea about the slip was wrong and Tiershift was telling the truth?
And there was a different kind of talk in the QT... not about my scumplay, but about my townplay...
between Tiershift and ALCHEMIST?
It's easy to imagine that Alchemist brought up Pick Your Chocolate Power, where I indeed mis-killed MathDino as a N3-Vig. It makes perfect sense to talk about others' townplay there!
In 8 Alchemist refers to that game, in 10 Tiershift asks back, the link arrives in 11 (10 minutes later, he says: "Not sure where the post is.") and in 12 Tiershift says "That was one of the most blatant crumbs I've ever seen, lol." – there was 12 minutes between those posts.
In this case it might have been a coincidence that Tiershift was hanging around in the nomination thread independently.

I don't even understand what you are saying. It took me 12 minutes to find the obvious crumb and write a response. How does that in any way showcase knowledge from the scum PT with alchemist?

[TierShift]

Don't ignore my other idea.
By the way, you started to discuss a townie's scumgame on Page1.

What is this supposed to mean? get your head out of your ass.

And I have f-cking no idea how often you check a subscribed topic, because I use the View your posts page for following everything.

That's what I mean by subscribing. I use egosearch myself. I visibly made an egosearch post in that thread, so I could follow it. Because most people use subscribe, I called it that.

[TierShift]

Look, all your points on me boil down to possible scumslips. There is no such thing as a possible scumslip; something is either a scumslip, or it isn't. If it can be proven a scumslip, lynch the fucker. If it cannot, you cannot use it as a scumtell. If it can be otherwise explained (in this case, by infinitely more likely causes), it just isn't a slip.

You even acknowledge that my behaviour isn't a real slip by providing an alternative explanation (that I'm scum with alchemist). I provided another. Only one can be true and it's not simply a 33-33-33% split between the three, so you cannot use the 2 out of 3 he's scum fallacy. Having got my knowledge elsewhere doesn't even make me town, frankly. You just need to either PROVE it's a slip or accept that it ISN'T.

[TierShift]

Tier, as much as I love you, why did you keep searching for me?

Because I like playing with you and anen was being poopyhead...

I do not understand how arcangel's 98 speaks your thoughts. You think anen is town and she thinks he's the opposite. Why do you townread her for it?

Why do you townread anen in the first place?

[TierShift]

i believe his explanation for the original reason he posted his thoughts. that seems genuine. But i must be missing the explanation where he explains that his first reaction is just to push my lynch over his. Can someone quote that for me becuase i dont see that?

that's the main reason i think tier is scum. his intital reaction to the accusation, not the actual accusation itself

Have you actually been keeping up with this game?
Do you think that I admitted to being scum in that post, but wanting to lynch you over me? How does that make sense?

What do you think of the push on me itself?

[TierShift]

are you a whomping willow alt?

[TierShift]

shoooos answer me questionzz

[TierShift]

what questions then?

I askeed questions bout a.ene and stuffff

[TierShift]

Toon I don't really get why youare voting anen, can you summarisee in one sebtencee?

[TierShift]

How does answerinng these questions help you determine who's scum?

[TierShift]

@TS: It doesn't, he's just pretending he's scumhunting.

please don't answer questions not directed at you!

I voted anen because I didn't like his attitude, acting like he knew the entire game by page 3, and that town had to follow all his directions, voting and investigating where he pleased. I think he tried to stifle discussion and that is anti-town.

I like this.

It doesnt, it is a RQS ibstead of RVS.

same as to toon, lol.

Tier, what questions you want answerwd

110

[TierShift]

shos you ARE STILL NOT ANSWERING MINE

2. Best scum hunting moment in a finished game? Case on Nazerene in Olympians.

I was not in this game, so what lol

[TierShift]

only that? What do you think of the difference between her read on anen and yours?
you missed the question of why you were townreading anen in the first place.

[TierShift]

look shos, last time. Why are you townreading anen?

[TierShift]

Does anyone (including anen) want me to respond to anen's accusations?

[TierShift]

what is wrong with the dodgy wagon?

I'm still null on both of them, will probably be able to read shos later on if he becomes more involved. I take failure to do so as scummy.

[TierShift]

He's not just lurking. He's hopping onto a wagon without a good reason and just tacking on one later. That later explanation is completely useless and scummy; it shows that he hasn't even read the thread but is willing to commit to the most popular scumread at that moment for no reason at all.

[TierShift]

Has a death tunnel ever caught scum for you?

[TierShift]

ok what now

[TierShift]

As in seriously I know you are capable of thinking logically

[TierShift]

Did you read my posts?

[TierShift]

I'm actually mad because I wanted to /out of this game but thought playing with you would be severely cool

[TierShift]

Yeah that damn right is
Not the I'm town because AtE
But the read the game you moron type

[TierShift]

fine. Explain why 12 is a slip. And why the combination with anen's post was needed for it to be one.

[TierShift]

I get that now. I thought he was voting me for what he said in 23, that I admitted to being scum with dodgy. That is why I thought he was scum; I thought he changed his story after first not believing you.

I know your scumgame is good because I saw it nominated for a scummy. I (closely) follow the nominations, as is evidenced by my egopost in that specific thread. That is the reason I knew it; it would be nonsensical to talk with a scumbuddy about every townie's scum meta.

Anen, ask yourself this:
1. How likely is it that I talked with my scumbuddy about a random townie's scum meta pre-game?
If you're having trouble answering this, take a look at a few scum PT's and look what pre-game discussions entail.
2. How likely is it that I regularly check a thread that I proved I subscribed to?

Read quotes.
Why are you making yourself difficult to read on purpose?

[TierShift]

I really don't see both anen and shos being town but I haven't decided who's scum out of em yet. Dodgy is more or less a variable here that I'm not too sure of.

[TierShift]

VOTE: shos

[TierShift]

I'm going to read TF later and get back to you about that but your focus away from me makes me believe you don't actually think I slipped earlier and lied about that. I want feedback from you on this.

[TierShift]

So you don't believe it's a slip and you lied. Am I right?

[TierShift]

well nope. I did think it was a slip, but those explanation posts by you later in the game didn't sink in well enough at the time. so basically, you made me realize I didn't read the thread thoroughly enough.

why was your focus not on me at the start of your reread, then?

[TierShift]

TierShift, why suspicious of Shos?

Well, I initially voted him for sheeping a case based on smething that was obviously not a slip. Nevertheless, it was possible that he just didn't really read.

However, at this moment there's a discrepancy between his previous actions and his point of focus. If he actually thinks I slipped, as in really slipped, he would be sure I was scum. Completely sure. That's what a scumslip is, after all. He could do pre-flip associatives, or some other thing. At least his focus should actively be on me, not on other players like TF. He's just skipped me, like I'm some variable, while he was 100% I was scum. That doesn't line up and he's now ignoring me pointing it out to him.

Even if he's now realised it's not a slip, his focus should have been on me at the start of his reread, not on dodgy.
Do you get that?

[TierShift]

This bullshit evasive behaviour is exactly what scumshos does. Join the crusade and vote him!

[TierShift]

And you decided not to indicate that because?

[TierShift]

That answers that, I guess. Doesn't explain the evasiveness and I still have the feeling you're pushing some sort of agenda, although I can't really lay my finger on it atm. Continue ISOing, please. Will judge afterwards.

[TierShift]

shos is pretty good as scum, yeah. I'm positive I can catch him, though.

You playrd witg mr well enoughmate, yoy know that my scumgame is hyper.

Are we talking meta? Cause I love talking meta.

Your towngame is chaotic and hugely without a predetermined plan. Your pushes are often a tad extraordinary, but I always see something of town stubbornness in them, going against common thoughts or opinions. They have a core of truth in them a lot of the time and usually, somewhere in the back of my head, it goes like 'damn, he might be right, but it's not a push I'm interested in right now'. I don't see this kind of proactive thinking here. I think your pushes have been tame and you're not even voting the guy you have as scum. Now that I'm talking about the TF push, let me respond to that:

I don't think he has been that scummy. The only thing that is scummy about him is that he's faded away recently while having no pressure on himself. Suggesting flavourclaiming is not scummy. It just isn't. I agree that the dodgy vote is easy, but that doesn't make a scum. I personally liked the anen push, as a few people were townreading anen at that point, I believe.
That's not to say that I'm full-on townreading him, but I don't feel your push at all. I rather feel like you're bullshitting him like you did me in austin powers.

Your play has been chaotic, but not in the good sense. You're just throwing stuff around to see what sticks, of which the TF push is exemplaric. I feel that you're imitating your towngame, because you hope I will townread you for it and you know I will catch your level-headed scumgame.

I'm not yet sure what to make of your evasiveness, but I guess that can be lumped in under imitating your towngame.

So yeah, that's what I think about your 'hyper' scumgame. I think you're imitating your towngame and your continued references of how good your scumgame is fits in perfectly with that.

tl;dr vote shos he's imitating his towngame.

[TierShift]

Thatsimpressive but im just lazy.

^bullshit evasive behaviour

[TierShift]

nice

[TierShift]

He's not a whomping willow alt

[TierShift]

I agree that his lack of input is starting to get bothersome but his vote is in the right place sooooo....

[TierShift]

I think you're failing to read the thread, for the bazillionth time.

[TierShift]

TS what is your thoughts on This Christmas. Why?

A tad above null, I spose. On the one hand, he's pretty much useless, hasn't done any scumhunting. On the other hand, he's pretty relaxed, does what he likes and is not easily intimidated. If I had to guess, it would be a scum counterwagon to shos.

I can't say I've really studied him nto great detail. He's not the one I want lynched today, in any way. His flip would not tell us much because there's no opportunity for associative tells with his lack of stances and with the wagoners being like 'didn't do shit-->scum'. He seems like one of those players I can sort later by his stances.

Who is shos partner? Why?

I'm not very keen on associatives before the flip. Might be dodgy or TF or even christmas.

Why does it seem like petty squabbling between you and Shos rather then actual scum hunting?

I'm seeing stuff in shos's behaviour that I think is from scum-him. I've interacted with him to let him explain his actions, but his evasive crap hasn't done any of that.

Why did you think it looked like petty squabbling?

[TierShift]

Haiiiii

[TierShift]

I'm going to call TF town as I feel his 301 is exactly what my case would have been if I had bothered to write one up and if I'd never played with shos before.

You were evasive in the game you were scum in, austin powers. In another way, granted, but still evasive.

I'll go check if there's more I need to answer tonight.

[TierShift]

Whenever I presented anything you just talked around it.

[TierShift]

V/la till sunday evening

I will not have any possibility to post from 6 hours from now till sunday. If you can confirm yourself or anything, claim now.

Noted. ~insanity

[TierShift]

I don't think toon is scum.

Shos's claim doesn't do much for me, why does it for you?

[TierShift]

How's your vanity wagon anen dear
Kisses

[TierShift]

Sees yesterday's VC

Cries

Will give this game my undivided attention sometime soon

[TierShift]

I have no idea what shos claimed but the surprise surprise I've been blocked makes me want to vote him

[TierShift]

You haven't read the game during the night?

I went hitchhiking to paris!

It feels weird to see a L-1 wagon arise right before deadline, not see it hammered and then see the guy leading the wagon vote someone else.

Why wasn't anen your vote yesterday, tf?

[TierShift]

Does this mean you are townreading me?

[TierShift]

This game is probably not breakable by flavour, but oh well. Let's do this so arcangel can go on after this.

I'm debbie gallagher.

I'll dive into the flavour when I do ISO's so I can see if something is up. Iso's coming today/tomorrow-ish.

[TierShift]

The only thing worse than flavour claims is discussion about flavourclaims

[TierShift]

I'm also pretty damn sure AA9 is scum.

because why

[TierShift]

The line of reasoning that some of the gallaghers are scum fakeclaims because they are all obviously town is as dumb as the original line of reasoning that all the gallaghers are town.

Anyway, the fact that you say that there is information to be had from flavourclaiming as some gallaghers HAVE to be scum (I don't agree) contradicts your statement that flavourclaiming is useless and only helps scum. Care to explain?

[TierShift]

brb visiting stuff I haven't read yet.

[TierShift]

long post incoming

Wellshyt, I think I dislike ToonFighter. Here are the reasons:

– 53: the nameclaim is null in itself, but it's weird, because in 133 he said that he hadn't had time for the game (yet he

had had

time for that claim) and he started reading at that time (136... It's okay if someone doesn't read anything but how could he miss a case which had started on Page1?

– 136: First part: TierShift and I could be scums together. (Lololol...) Next part, this:

"Even if you are correct in your theory, even if you had a 100% guilty read on those players, you'd need much stronger arguments to convince me to vote with you, to block and/or investigate you at night, and to basically follow you everywhere. [...] Anen, do you still believe town should follow everything you suggested here? Has your opinion changed in any point?"

Then finally, ends the post with a vote for me.
It's possible that he's scum with TierShift and wants to make a compromise read on me. But okay, let's forget about TierShift now.
He says that I'd need stronger arguments – but how those things after that (vote with me, block me, investigate me) add up at all? Also, he asks questions, but before getting any answers from me, votes. Whuttafuk?

– 145:

"I voted anen because I didn't like his attitude, acting like he knew the entire game by page 3" – since when has been an attitude-tell an alignment tell? By the way, the last sub-sentence is a kind of discrediting. (I must be wrong because it's only Page3...)

– 146: too defensive. Just check why ThisCristmas voted for him. ^_^

– 160: voting for Dodgy.

" Looking at it again, I think he is the most likely scum in the interaction, joining the TS bandwagon for bad reasons and overall being a dead weight in the game so far."

– at that point my wagon was not moving and Dodgy was the leading wagon.

– 198:

"There are usually 3-4 times more town than scum. And D1, with little information, favors scum a lot more than town. So, probability really"

– everyone knows that. But, posting this might be a "safe ground" for performing a mislynch later.

– 284: unvotes Dodgy because he replaced out. Or because that wagon was not moving...?

– 301: votes for Shos. Yet again, he ends up on the leading wagon!

– 310:

"That is why I was only considering the top wagons."

– oookaaaay but he was doing that all the time, regardless of the time we've left!

– 336: that was simply pigeon poop.


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Toon Fighter

Also,
(1) it's possible that he's scum with TierShift (first TS is "scum with me", next, when those wagons are not moving it's a "town-vs-town") and
(2) I really don't like those names on the Shos-wagon, as I said before.

I don't like this post. Anen feels the need to overly justify himself.

@ARCANGEL

Jimmy Steve Lishman

How the fuck am i still the leading wagon.

Im a gunsmith. Please can we proceed with lynching TF?
AA9 and those voting TS are automatically scumreads of mine if I disregard the game, btw, juat becauae they posted this close to DL and started anoyher vanity wagom. Scum benefit from NL.

Id like to be watched tpnight.

Gunsmith? Did you learn from Unbalanced mafia lol?
I was initially somewhat conflicted on this claim, since it, well, looks like you just copied it from unbalanced mafia. I'm somewhat happier with you a few pages further, as you'll see below.

no lynching is giving up a mislynch
lynching town is giving up a mislynch, but info is given with a flip

Estival, you were ALREADY voting TS(vanity wagon again btw,) so why did you feel the need to revote? Whyare you there anyway?

preach

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE USE THE DAY ONE MISLYNCH FOR INFO> POINT ME TO ONE GAME WHERE THAT INFO AS YOU CLAIM BROKE THE GAME> I AM SICK AND TIRED OF USELESS AND POINTLESS ARGUMENTS LIKE "Info"

GUESS WHAT ELSE GIVES US INFO? THE TOWN DEATH TONIGHT. NO NEED TO HELP SCUM.

Even though you are dead, this is common practice. I sometimes choose on who's townflip provides the most info.

I've just arrived home and haven't read the latest pages thoroughly but as far as I can see the Tiershift wagon is back, therefore

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TierShift

By the way, I'm Lip.

Anen continues behaviour of not doing shit and only tunnelling.

This town is a trainwreck

I call yhis game perfect scum win


Omfg

I can give you a dozen games where d1 lynch lead to maaaassive information. MASSIVE.
I cany believe Lip jusy claimed. Holy fuck

THERE IS AN EXAMPLE TOWN ROLE PM RIGHT THERE ONPAGEONE


SCUM KNOW THE TOWN WINCON

THAT IS WHY HE FAKECLAIMED CARL ASAP

why onearth otherwise would he do that
Omfg

OMFFFFFG

Im going to sleep

Wipl respond in dead thread

I feel genuine frustration in this post.

VOTE: Tiershift

I understand, but the lack of proactiveness and just choosing the big wagon makes me sick.

Im still awake somewhy

Estival, the most recent is inuyasha, but off thr top of my head the tpcky hprror show fits too

TF wluld fakeclaim because he is given a safeclaim so he uses it. It is both a "lool how town i am" and adds a perk of fooling othera to claim prematurely as well, which again, helps only scum.

What benefit have you got from knowing now who Lip is? Ateve? Carl? Mickey?

No brnefit at all
Lip is pronably some kind of joat; wanna bet he dies/os blpcked?

So scum got usefil info.
Town got uselessinfo, at best.

Also Carl doesnt even fit as a VT. Debs does. Carl is a criminal, he breaks his fathers leg, bullies everyone around, smokes, drinks, gets kicked outta school, and all this before age of 10. VT? Nah.

Scum probably got a "these roles are not in the game: carl, ____, ____," and not a full fakeclaim.

I like this post as this is geared towards expressing his anger and also his scumread towards TF rather than continuously egging people on to vote for him. This is a townmarker for shos.
(Which also maybe means you should work on your convincing as town, dear <3)

tier? maybe scum
talk to me tier : )
ill post more puppies
if you come in here and have fun with me

Hi, I'm here. You're continuing the absolute uselessness of your predecessor. Wanna change that?

[TierShift]

I'm mad because I was sure shos was imitating his towngame. ISO going nooooowwww

[TierShift]

So, done ISO.

The main thing that strikes me is the insistence on not flavourclaiming. It's a bit contradictory to what he says himself (some gallaghers gotta be scum) but it doesn't fit with my view of scumshos. Another thing that is evident is his lack of manipulation. Manipulation isn't a scumtell, but I do consider it to be one for shos; his scumgame is much more manipulative than his towngame. He just expresses anger a lot of the time rather than convincing people to vote where he votes.
And his stuff on me is really genuine.
I'm actually pretty confident in this townread. huh.

I need to take a look at how the wagon on you dissipated.

Btw add to #1 the chance that I actually drop something inthread that I learned in the current game's scum PT, lol. You can ask shos to assess this chance, he's played with scum-me.

I find this good. Scum do not usually refer to their scummeta while they're not playing like it; they need

others

to find that out and speak it out loud for them. I refer to my meta only as town, too.

wow, shos, you've addressed your meta in this game! You must be town!

Anen is somewhat of a grey area. Me elaborating might lead to him changing his behaviour, so I'm not gonna. Atm.

interesting, I had a townread on anen for a reason I did not disclose either. wonder if it's the same.

As we're quite a time in now, I will elaborate on this. I hope you can do the same.
I find early game tunnelling to be somewhat of a towntell. Scum like to play it safe in the early pages. However, when this behaviour lasts for the entire game, especially when based on a single post rather than play, it sends up all kinds of big red flags.
Everyone, even a tunneller, can evaluate other stuff. Anen obviously doesn't want to. I don't regard him very highly as a player, but based on previous games, I'd expect him to be able to evaluate a bit more objectively.

That's why I scumread him. Why do you disagree? What is the stuff you don't want to disclose?

Blocked, and surprise surprise.

What a stupid day 1 that was

booo blocked blocked card
be glad I think you're town because I would totally demolish your PR claim otherwise

It only makes sense that i get blocked instead of killed
This makes use of both kill and block whereas killing me may waste the block on a VT.

Scum 101.

The pm I sent the mod was mad, I was bursting too

TF. Its gonna be a long tunnel

Prepare

VOTE: AA9.

I'll give you a list of some vital characters.

Deb
Carl
Ian
Lip
Fyona
Frank
Sammy
Liam
Vivian
Kevin
Mickey
Mandy
Karen
Karen's mom
their sex adddict boyfriend
Steve/Jimmy
Gus


who is scum?

What happened between these two posts? I don't really get your scumread on AA9. Why are the two players focused on collecting flavourclaims scum?

[TierShift]

hey there's activity in this thread
#happy

[TierShift]

The line of reasoning that some of the gallaghers are scum fakeclaims because they are all obviously town is as dumb as the original line of reasoning that all the gallaghers are town.

Anyway, the fact that you say that there is information to be had from flavourclaiming as some gallaghers HAVE to be scum (I don't agree) contradicts your statement that flavourclaiming is useless and only helps scum. Care to explain?

The difference is as following.

1. why this doesn't give info to town:
because there are six gallaghars. there are 9 people in the game, which means most likely 2 scum, meaning 7 town, which are not the gallaghars. while some gallaghars may be in play, I think it is likely that at least one is a scum fakeclaim *cough*AA9/TF*cough*. This does not help town because we're not just going to lyncht hem on the assumption that gallaghar is scum, and because lol that is too big of a pool to work with PoE.
Also, we have absolutely no idea what's going on regarding which flavor is scum. for all we know, Frank gallaghar can be scum - the wincon is gallaghar KIDS - this means that Fyona, Frank, and Sammy are out. Frank can be scum or town; Karen, Steve - they can all be both scum and town. WE HAVE NO INFORMATION HERE.

2. why this hurts town by giving info to scum:
we already know by now that roles are connected to the flavor(E.G. me, gunmaster Mickey is a gunsmith) and as such, any scum with even the slightest understanding of the show will know that nightkilling Liam is a stupid decision when you can kill Fyona.

I did not realise that mickey was a gunsmith. I thought flavour would not be related to roles. This is bad. I think.
I think a well-designed setup, especially one that was advertised as "flavour knowledge not required to play" shouldn't have important characters as PR's. I thought that was the case. Not so sure now.

@TS 526: you do realize I was town in both unbalanced mafia games, right? lol. *keeps reading*

yeah, why does that matter?

[TierShift]

re: anen
I'm not sure I understand your question to me; but meanwhile, no, I cannot explain my early townread on Anen. Lately it's been going down though, I'll say that, although the Lip claim gives me gut of town, because as a mod I would *totally* include him in town as the most awesomest person in the show.

Why can you not explain? You have already fullclaimed. Is it due to ~ongoing~?

re: AA9 and the tunnel
The thing that happened is these two posted. While TF posted with reason, AA9 proved to me that he skims the game and ignores my posts almost altogether if not entirely.

I don't get this.

Skimming your wagon tells me that this christmas's vote switch to TF is weird, as if he's completely on the other side of the argument all of a sudden. Talk to me about this, christmas.

[TierShift]

Dunno, it felt like you were explaining why you are scumreading me, despite townreading me, so you said I acted like something that was done when I was town(twice) and therefore scum....ors omething..

uh-huh

[TierShift]

tier
do you suspect anen becaues anen is tunneling
or becaue anen is tunneling

you

I suspect anen because he's not able to evaluate outside of his tunnel. It's not the tunnel itself, nor the person it's on.

because right now you accuse anen
in the same post
of reaching to vote somebody whos not you
but tunneling in his vote on you

I'm not accusing him of reaching. Please read again.

[TierShift]

The only thing worse than flavour claims is discussion about flavourclaims

FFS guys

[TierShift]

TierShift, 534 – are you fence-sitting here, as for your Shos read? Also, you wrote this: Everyone, even a tunneller, can evaluate other stuff. Anen obviously doesn't want to. I don't regard him very highly as a player, but based on previous games, I'd expect him to be able to evaluate a bit more objectively. – aaand you posted on Page1 "I hear anen's scumgame is good, though."... sooooo, putting these two things together it means... you know that I'm town. Because of...

I did hear that. That doesn't mean that

I

think your scumgame is good.

Why don't you believe in your slip story anymore?

[TierShift]

And this is exactly why I didn't give my anen read earlier; he would change his behaviour. By hopping on the biggest wagon.

[TierShift]

I don't like townblocks a whole lot anymore, only when I have super strong reads. Why would you want droog out of all people to be in it? He's been useless and hasn't shown the littlest resemblance of his town game.

[TierShift]

If my earlier townread on AA9 will stand the test of time, I'm gonna say that at least one of anen/alchemist gotta be scum.
I'll have some time for ISO's today/tomorrow as I'll be at the beach without a worry in the world!

[TierShift]

Why did I think arcangel is town again? Gotta look back through my ISO, hers is empty as shit.

Buuuuuut, anen and alchemist's votes are so incredibly bad, especially alchemist's.

[TierShift]

Okay, I like arcangel's early game anen push and that's about it. The ISO is a tad more empty than I expected it to be.

Let me check the wagon on her next.

[TierShift]

(3) There's one thing which suggests me that Shos is not scum. I'd be dead by now.

I don't get this. Please explain.

[TierShift]

Well, everyone had access to that information. As scum, he would just have been lying about being a gunsmith, meaning roles probably AREN'T related to flavour. Then he would have had no reason to kill you.

[TierShift]

Please summarise in two sentences why you are voting AA9, alch.

[TierShift]

Why would she not volunteer her own nameclaim if she was scum?

[TierShift]

I FUCKING HATE DISCUSSION ABOUT FLAVOURCLAIMS BECAUSE I CAN'T FIGURE OUT IF PEOPLE ARE DENSE OR SCUM

[TierShift]

aaaaaargh
Flavour discussion is really the stupidest thing in mafia and nothing ever good comes of it

[TierShift]

She's been pushing this nameclaiming business the whole time, but for some reason didn't bother volunteering her own nameclaim. Hell, it's almost like she's certain the game can be broken by flavor, because I don't see other methods of scumhunting from her. Who else but scum could be certain of a thing like that?

Okay, here I am again, one read later.

I absolutely hate arcangel's continued use of only nameclaims to scumhunt. I gave my flavour asap and most (or all?) of the people have by now. I did this in the hopes she would turn towards real scumhunting instead of being hung up over this. This has not happened, but she

says

she scumhunts while using flavour as a complement, but this is simply not true. She only uses flavour and doesn't even know what to do with it. Despite that, she keeps using it. It reeks of scum motivation and avoiding saying something useful, while making yourself 'conftown' because of claim.

So, consider this an intent to hammer, which will only happen after I finish my reading. Please claim, arc.

[TierShift]

Okay, so here's my alchemist read:
I had him as strong town day 1, due to his 21 and his knack for resolving arguments. I especially like 319.
But his day 2 consists of doing pretty much nothing. He first sheeps shos and then comes to arcangel with a pretty weak vote. I do like that his reads change without him really explaining every step inbetween (trajectory, I can elaborate on this if someone wants).

All in all, town, but with *some* reservations. Can I see some reads out of ya, alch?

[TierShift]

How does droog have so many posts @@

Uhm, okay, I'm not even going to pretend I read all of his posts since I absolutely cannot read through his posting style (might want to change that?). Anyway, he's doing that thing he does as town where he keeps asking questions and not really push people based off of it. Stuff like 482 and 549 make me think he's town.
I'm not gonna do more research and call this town for now

[TierShift]

This christmas
I like that he is drawing his own plan. That's about it. His reads are somewhat stale. uhhhhh, I really thought I'd have more to say about this slot. Can you talk to me about your reads?

[TierShift]

Toon Fighter ISO just screams town. Do not ever lynch this, please. I gotta look why he was wagoned ever

[TierShift]

Ah, yes. Anen and arcangel just jump on it as soon as it gains traction and jump off as soon as it loses just thst without saying anything. Feeling preeeeettttty good about this.

[TierShift]

God, reading the anen ISO makes me mad that he's not dead yet. You DO NOT STILL THINK SOMEONE SLIPPED AND THUS IS 100% SCUM AND NOT PURSUE THAT.

It's just not fucking possible.
That is all.
VOTE: anen
My intent to hammer on arcangel still stands; they're probably the scumteam. I'm much more confident in anen though, because read this post. Can we get an anen wagon going?

[TierShift]

Okay. Let me try this again with a question.

I am town and I am 100% sure someone is scum by virtue of scumslip. Other players don't see this. What do I do:
A. Ignore the slip and vote the biggest wagons
B. Keep pushing until I get the player lynched

Next question:
I am scum and fake a scumslip on a certain player. Other people don't see this and it will be hard for me to get the player lynched. What do I do:
A. Ignore the slip and vote the biggest wagons
B. Keep pushing until I get the player lynched

[TierShift]

Toon Fighter ISO just screams town. Do not ever lynch this, please. I gotta look why he was wagoned ever

Can you elaborate here please? I'm having trouble reading him because I don't get a feel one way or the other from his posts.

A few highlights: early game push against anen, having the same reasoning as me for voting arcangel (608). What do you see that makes him scum?

[TierShift]

The fact that he's still arguing with me while he "knows" I'm scum only seals the deal.

[TierShift]

Respond to me re: anen

[TierShift]

so you're saying that my slip wasn't, in fact, a slip.

[TierShift]

I wasn't saying

why

you were joining the biggest wagons, just that you were doing so. You are in fact ignoring me and voting the biggest wagons. It's a fact, with nothing to change about it. That is not what a false dilemma is.

[TierShift]

Look, all your points on me boil down to possible scumslips. There is no such thing as a possible scumslip; something is either a scumslip, or it isn't. If it can be proven a scumslip, lynch the fucker. If it cannot, you cannot use it as a scumtell. If it can be otherwise explained (in this case, by infinitely more likely causes), it just isn't a slip.

You don't think I slipped following this definition.

[TierShift]

He's still scumreading you, which makes sense from the POV if him thinking you slipped.

No, you push the one that slipped relentlessly until he dies. THAT makes sense.

[TierShift]

Anen is 100% sure (or very close) I'm scum
Anen pushes elsewhere
Tell me how it makes sense from a town perspective.

[TierShift]

You've got to be kidding me.

[TierShift]

I simply do not understnad your anen townread
I disagree with your arcangel townread
And I have no idea why you're voting alchemist

[TierShift]

I did read your posts; just not all of them.

[TierShift]

I do not like the way this is going.
I feel pretty confident in my reads and also pretty confident that droog is on the wrong track. Anen is already buttering him up in the hopes of a counterwagon that is NOT on his buddy.

VOTE: arcangel
If I die tonight, anen tomorrow. Pretty pretty please.

[TierShift]

Should arc flip town I'm going to hunt your ass so hard for this comment

[TierShift]

Hi guys, we're NOT no lynching today. We are doing massclaim today, as I have important results to share AND I might be able to trap scum in a fakeclaim, if we get lucky.

I do not particularly care about the order of the massclaim but would really like to have anen start it off.

[TierShift]

Wa-wa-waaaaaaiiiting

[TierShift]

Hint: stfu guys until after massclaim

[TierShift]

I'm a voyeur. I've targeted shos both night one and night two. He was blocked for both of those nights. Nothing else happened to him.

Shos is confirmed town, by virtue of that.

Flavour is babysitting so I can see what happens to the kids.

So, I could check if anen's claim is true, I think? Let me check the wiki. If he hasn't used his shot, at least.

Anyway, I think confirming that he has the ability doesn't do much. It might be a fakeclaim for an ascetic or if he does not have the ability he might just say he already used it.

So I'm in favour of lynching today.

[TierShift]

Uh wait, scum have a RB. I can't confirm shit.

[TierShift]

Uh who's the second conftown?

But yeah I agree

[TierShift]

Shos who do you currently think the scumteam is?

[TierShift]

The only way shos can be scum is if he's scum with me, remember? You really think that's the case?

[TierShift]

From my POV it's really stupid to just throw a confirmed town away, you get that?

[TierShift]

What about alch?
What do you mean sth else for tf?

[TierShift]

Describe it

[TierShift]

Who is that? Tf or alch?

[TierShift]

I'm a voyeur. I've targeted shos both night one and night two. He was blocked for both of those nights. Nothing else happened to him.

Shos is confirmed town, by virtue of that.

That doesn't confirm anything. These are also possible:
(1) TierShift is Mafia Goon and his partner is a Roleblocker, blocking Shos twice.
(2) Both TierShift and Shos are scum (with any PRs) and they're both faking.

yeah, that's what I said. The only way shos is scum is if I'm scum with him. Scenario 1 does comply with what I said.

So, I could check if anen's claim is true, I think? Let me check the wiki. If he hasn't used his shot, at least.

No, you can't. You could see if anyone targets me but that's all.

There's something that I don't like.
If all claims are real, it'd mean that the town has (1) a 1–shot Tracker (confirmed), (2) a Voyeur, (3) a Gunsmith and (4) a 1–shot Commuter.

The scums have in this case a Roleblocker.

Wouldn't it be a bit unbalanced?

How the shit do you know scum only have a RB?

Something is not right here.

Why do we have a Gunsmith instead of a Cop?
A Voyeur can confirm the action of the 1–shot Tracker or the Gunsmith, but that's all.

Either TierShift or Shos is lying. Aren't both of them telling that we should choose lynching Today instead of NoLynch?

Look, shos is not lying. I'm not either. Why do you say either of us is lying?

Almost....voting....

[TierShift]

There's also
(3) TierShift is mafia trying to buddybuddy me.

Shhh don't tell anen

That's (1) btw

And anen, let me try this again. Why do you think gunsmith-voyeur-1xtracker-1xcommute. Vs RB is unbalanced?

[TierShift]

Yeah no I don't vote early in my/lylo

Ever seen my play in lylo
It's glorious

You'll see when I have time and break the fuck out of the scums

[TierShift]

you think both scum necessarily were on my wagon?

[TierShift]

I don't think TF is scum but I obviously need to revisit.

[TierShift]

Oh that spoiler looks terribly incriminating

I really gotta read soon!

[TierShift]

TC, what do you think the scum plan was? Relentlessly bus to (almost) a lynch, then have my partner claim a strong PR? Later confirm him with a delay in the hope town can't meddle with it in any way?

Next to that, town would have a 1-shot tracker and a 1-shot commuter as only PR's, which is ridiculous from a balanve perspective.

So no, TC. Just no.

[TierShift]

1xtracker+1xcommute +VT's against 2 goons is balanced, yes or no? @tC

[TierShift]

Sooooo
I researched Anen and she does all that as both alignments. HOWEVER, I did find the thing that made me think she was town and I didn't tell you all about, and I need to check that out more to be 100%. I researched anen's last 8 games and was correct in 100% of the times.

Pls tell already

[TierShift]

Tier I don't know if that's balanced. Scum and town both seem weak

Let me tell you: it's not. Town are severely underpowered.

Generally considered balanced is:
6 VT
1 cop
2 goons

Now compare the cop to a 1-shot tracker and a 1-shot commuter. A tracker is a muuuuch weaker cop; it can only detect one of the scums and does not have reliable innocent results. On top of that, it's 1-shot. A 1-shot commuter is totally useless; it can evade a NK once, which turns the game into evens, which doesn't do shit.

So basically, town have a 1 in 8 chance to catch scum with their tracker. That is almost nothing. Compare it to the balanced cop setup I just gave you; there the cop gets innocents AND has a much bigger chance of catching scum, I'd say close to 1 in 2.

Do you believe insanity has an unbalanced setup?

Btw shos stop asking active people to replace out. That's a dick move.

[TierShift]

oh wait, I missed how the super secret tell made anen scum.

WHAT IS GOING ON PLS TELL

[TierShift]

I believe Anen's claim (as you said, not a decent scum claim, etc)

What is wrong with claiming 1-shot commuter as scum? It's the safest fakeclaim possible, especially when you don't tell if you've used your shot. It also nets you some townpoints, because it always fits into a setup (really, think of a moment it doesn't fit!) and it's different from a VT claim.

I'm not saying anen is scum for claiming that, but it certainly does not make him town.

[TierShift]

starting reread.

[TierShift]

That was one of the most blatant crumbs I've ever seen, lol.
I hear anen's scumgame is good, though.

As if noone else had done shytty things in the history of MafiaScum.
By the way, calm down there, I'm not a Vig this time.

VOTE: Toon Fighter
All of his posts have been blatantly scummy so far.

why didn't you immediately call me scum here, anen?

I hear anen's scumgame is good, though.

Tiershift saw my town-play twice. Why would he have meta-ed my scumgames on Page1, when I had only one single post?

So, someone must have told that to Tiershift.

I've never played with these players before: Toon Fighter, shos, This Christmas, estival.
Alchemist saw my

town

game, he even linked it. (I'm afraid I'll be even title-fairied because of that shytty move lol.)
ArcAngel saw two of my scum games; one of them was very,

very

far from good (Street Racers: London), the other one was fine (Open 573: C9++), but it wasn't good enough for winning the game.
I met Dodgy in Open 583 JK9++. I was scum and our team did a great job indeed.
I was scum in a Newbie too, I did it well, I think, but none of these players were there.

That's four games, two of them are good: one is maybe okay, one is terrible. My scum-meta doesn't show that I'd be a remarkably good player as scum. In addition, I'm neither a famous, nor a particularly significant player at all.

The only player who could have told Tiershift that I was good as scum is Dodgy. The one who has direct meta only on my best scumgame so far.
The only place it could have happened is the scum QT.

Tiershift slipped. This was unfortunate; had that sentence had been posted about a player with more completed games, it would have been much harder to backtrace the information listed above.

Tiershift and Dodgy are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tiershift

We've talked about this for a long time. I do not think this makes him town. What I do think, is that if he's scum, he's got to be confident in his own ability. Let's see how that matches up with the rest of his play.

Why would anyone have been talking about your scum meta in the scum PT if you're not scum?

Alch looks really town for this and his way of explaining on page 2.

Also, Tiershift's wagon seems a bit too big for the size of the game. Will abstain from voting for now because RVS seems over and I don't know where to put my vote for now.

I like

Do you believe I slipped being scum with dodgy? Why are you then not treating dodgy as scum?

@Anen: did you really believe dodgy was scum with me and would just bus me and hope he'd make endgame? That's totally ridiculous. Why would he do that?

My problem is that I simply can't ignore your 12, and I don't think I'll ever be able to drop the idea that it was a slip. So I examine all of your posts assuming that you're scum.
For example this one. Yes, we were nominated, I was in an excellent team (Wicked and Heartless). It

is

possible that you saw that but if so, you would have mentioned it

right after

my post about your slip.

So, everyone: here's my idea.
I can't imagine anyone as scum but Tiershift and Dodgy. Because of this, I don't think I can do anything useful Today.
So, let's lynch Tiershift. (Eg. Alchemist thinks that my read about the slip is wrong but Tieshift is scum because of his other posts.)

If he flips town, it's clear that my reads were wrong (and I'm really sorry, of course).

But

in this case you may think that I'm scum who has set up a clever mislynch and it would be risky with an unconfirmed-me in the town. (I'm town but I can't proove it.) So, fire away any kind of investigation you have on me at Night1. (Yes, I might have some kind of immunity, eg. Ninja, but because I have no idea about the Setup I can't have immunity against everything. Jailkeeper doesn't work, it would proove nothing, I suppose. Even a town-Vig shot would be useful, I think.)

'Oh, I'm not going to do anything useful today. I'm going to tunnel on town and when they flip town, I'm going to be surprised. Oh, and I'm going to roleblock any investigatives!'

ToonFighter, I've only seen one episode but mass claiming is probably not the best idea. Why did you suggest it?

The conversation between TierShift, Alchemist, dodgy56, and Aienen seems based on some meta reads?

I can see why scum would talk about another players scum meta if they were to set them up for a lynch but it seems a bit reaching?

hold up there yo, why those questions in that passive voice

scum are talking the talk
walking the walk

This christmas is avoiding the central topic at that moment: anen vs me.

[TierShift]

Shooooooos I want you in heeere

<3

good new is aneninen is town

ok plz share nao

Ok after really reading the game for the first time I have some remarks to do, topped off with a nice vote. Here it goes:
VOTE: Aneninen

I like this. It shows independent thought process.

I don't agree with your reasoning. I think you are grasping at straws with TS. As I said, post 12 doesn't seem like a slip, it was explained later. Post 54 doesn't look like anything. Post 63 looks like it comes after all your insistence. He did look a bit *shifty* at the beginning, and I think he could be scum, but I cannot understand how you have this blind faith that he is scum. I can see you being scum and producing all this case , but the more I see your posts the more I doubt myself.

Alternatively, you vs TS can be town-town, and scum are the ones taking advantage of the wagons and trying a quicklynch of TS, for example. In this category I place dodgy. Looking at it again, I think he is the most likely scum in the interaction, joining the TS bandwagon for bad reasons and overall being a dead weight in the game so far. I'm mor ecomfortable placing my vote there.

unvote, vote: dodgy

There is no reason for scum-tf to switch votes, I don't think.

TC continues to be worth absolutely nothing.

[TierShift]

Can we just lynch shos?

I hadn't noticed the claim. Still, it doesn't make him $100% confirmed town

This looks bad. still think this is town, though. Especially because he starts a new wagon when he's being deadline wagoned.

Wellshyt, I think I dislike ToonFighter. Here are the reasons:

– 53: the nameclaim is null in itself, but it's weird, because in 133 he said that he hadn't had time for the game (yet he

had had

time for that claim) and he started reading at that time (136... It's okay if someone doesn't read anything but how could he miss a case which had started on Page1?

– 136: First part: TierShift and I could be scums together. (Lololol...) Next part, this:

"Even if you are correct in your theory, even if you had a 100% guilty read on those players, you'd need much stronger arguments to convince me to vote with you, to block and/or investigate you at night, and to basically follow you everywhere. [...] Anen, do you still believe town should follow everything you suggested here? Has your opinion changed in any point?"

Then finally, ends the post with a vote for me.
It's possible that he's scum with TierShift and wants to make a compromise read on me. But okay, let's forget about TierShift now.
He says that I'd need stronger arguments – but how those things after that (vote with me, block me, investigate me) add up at all? Also, he asks questions, but before getting any answers from me, votes. Whuttafuk?

– 145:

"I voted anen because I didn't like his attitude, acting like he knew the entire game by page 3" – since when has been an attitude-tell an alignment tell? By the way, the last sub-sentence is a kind of discrediting. (I must be wrong because it's only Page3...)

– 146: too defensive. Just check why ThisCristmas voted for him. ^_^

– 160: voting for Dodgy.

" Looking at it again, I think he is the most likely scum in the interaction, joining the TS bandwagon for bad reasons and overall being a dead weight in the game so far."

– at that point my wagon was not moving and Dodgy was the leading wagon.

– 198:

"There are usually 3-4 times more town than scum. And D1, with little information, favors scum a lot more than town. So, probability really"

– everyone knows that. But, posting this might be a "safe ground" for performing a mislynch later.

– 284: unvotes Dodgy because he replaced out. Or because that wagon was not moving...?

– 301: votes for Shos. Yet again, he ends up on the leading wagon!

– 310:

"That is why I was only considering the top wagons."

– oookaaaay but he was doing that all the time, regardless of the time we've left!

– 336: that was simply pigeon poop.


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Toon Fighter

Also,
(1) it's possible that he's scum with TierShift (first TS is "scum with me", next, when those wagons are not moving it's a "town-vs-town") and
(2) I really don't like those names on the Shos-wagon, as I said before.

The incredible overjustification for voting a secondary scumread I talked about before. Blegh.

what is up with wagons that aren't even possible being this close to deadline? that awakens the sleeping enthusiast in me

seriously!!!!

VOTE: Toon Fighter

and estival (the bad alt slipper who keeps posting as 'elusive') - seriously - is "revoting" tiershift when that still is L-3

Lynch -2

ehhhhhh this seems particularly easy

[TierShift]

(1) Both ToonFighter and Shos were at L–1 after VC1.13. (After my 353)

Shos Wagon: Alchemist21, TierShift, This Christmas, Toon Fighter
ToonFighter wagon: shos, estival, ArcAngel9, Aneninen

(2) The sequence of events from that point.
– Estival unvoted. (Estival is confirmed townie)
– ArcAngel unvoted.
– Estival re-opened the TierShift wagon.
– VC1.14: Shos at L–1 (unchanged), ToonFighter with 2 votes, TierShift with 1 vote. The VC said

less than 12 hours

.
– ToonFighter voted for Aneninen. (Estival voted for TierShift but she had already been voting for TierShift at that time.)
– ThisChristmas votes for ToonFighter. (Both Shos and ToonFighter are at L–2, 3–3 votes.)
– ToonFighter votes for TierShift.
– Aneninen votes for TierShift.
– Estival unvotes.
– ThisCristmas votes for TierShift.
– Druuge votes for ToonFighter but he votes for TierShift in his next post. TierShift is at L–1.
– Day ends.

Conclusion #1. Estival's vote moving seems as if he'd been trying to sabotage the Lynch. Assuming that a NoLynch is bad for the town, it was very scummy – yet he was Nightkilled!

He must have done or said something which was detrimental to the scums!

(3) Between VC1.14 and VC1.16 (final), so, in the last 12 hours the following players were here:
– ArcAngel, ThisChristmas, Estival, Shos, ToonFighter, Alchemist, Druuge, Aneninen
(In the order of appearance; last post closest the Deadline comes Last.)
corresponding TimeTags are

Mar 06, 2015 11:27 pm

and

Mar 07, 2015 11:09 am

; CET

– before ToonFighter's vote for Aneninen (386) the Shos-wagon was L–1.
Conclusion#2: if Shos's scum, ToonFighter derailed his wagon. Although he could have done so earlier too.


(4) All-around site activity of players getting close to Deadline (only the fact that they were posting somewhere, without mentioning anything about the certain posts, games or whatever) – we get no new info here. Everyone'd been active in this thread for the last time before the Deadline.

Conclusion#3: I can see no players directly sabotaging the Lynch, it could have been an unfortunate coincidence as well.

I like this post. I like that the conclusions logically follow from his observations.

I will only be able to disclose the reason I have a townread on anen late in the game

PLZ

I bet there will be no TierShift wagon now...

ToonFighter: I've never watched Shameless "thoroughly" but I've seen some episodes, so the story isn't a "complete one" in my mind. (I usually watch series while doing housework, playing Mafia, etc. you know.)

So, I'm examining Estival's reads now. (In order of appearance.)

TierShift kind of lean scum but town later.
Votes for This Christmas, 233.
Townreading Shos, 230.
Disliking This Christmas and Druuge because of trolling.
Voting for ToonFighter, 335, because he didn't read Shos's claim.
Unvotes in 359.
Scumreading TierShift in Aneninen, voting for Tiershift in 374.
Saying that This Christmas slipped, in 405.
Townreading ToonFighter and ArcAngel in 415. Lean town on Shos (419).
Saying that he wants to lynch Druuge in 433

________

These players may have gained something by silencing her: This Christmas, Druuge, TierShift, (Aneninen)
These players may have lost something by silencing her: ArcAngel, ToonFighter, (Shos)
No read on: Alchemist
(Less significant-looking names in brackets.)

Is there anyone else who thinks ThisChristmas slipped?

Even though he might be scum wifoming, this is another post I somewhat like. :/

TierShift, 534 – are you fence-sitting here, as for your Shos read? Also, you wrote this:

Everyone, even a tunneller, can evaluate other stuff. Anen obviously doesn't want to.

I don't regard him very highly as a player

, but based on previous games, I'd expect him to be able to evaluate a bit more objectively.

– aaand you posted on Page1

"I hear anen's scumgame is good, though."

... sooooo, putting these two things together it means... you know that I'm town. Because of...
....
VOTE: ArcAngel9

This is weird. He basically accuses me of being scum here but votes arc.

I'm fine with a vote on AA9. Looking back all she's done is make pushes based on nameclaiming (which she originally opposed). It doesn't look good that she just now character claimed after pushing for it so much earlier. If you though nameclaiming was such a good idea why didn't you do it before demanding claims from other players?

VOTE: ArcAngel9

L-1

this vote is very easy

All in all, anen comes in as a whole new person day 2. His tunnel on me is gone and he has a few good points. I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, it doesn't make much sense he would just let go of his tunnel as town and it does make sense to think his partner has had a say in that, on the other hand he could just have stopped being a moron.
And of course there's the fact that he 'knows' I'm scum but votes elsewhere. That doesn't fit with stopping being a moron. so....
hm...

[TierShift]

Alchemist and shos

VOTE: alchemist

was going to say that this makes christmas-alchemist team unlikely, until I saw the next post. Maybe it is likely with the desire to get shos removed first.

VOTE: shos

Scumbag

Respond to me re: anen

Is this @me? Tbh his tunnel isn't out of the ordinary imo. I argue with my scumreads a lot when I'm in tunnel mode. Actually, looking at how he has cased TF and been voting elsewhere, I'd say he's been lighter about tunneling than I usually am when I tunnel. As far as the perceived slip goes, he hasn't really been contradictory about it. Yeah, he thinks you slipped, but that doesn't mean he'll get others to see it that way (and he probably won't unless one of you actually flips scum because it's a highly contextual point). He's still scumreading you, which makes sense from the POV if him thinking you slipped.

@Anen, I do feel I need to point this out though. The only way what Tier said was a slip is if he's scum with the Dodgy/Droog slot. You're considering AA9 and TF scum possibilities, so you already have some belief that you could be wrong. I need you to take a step back, clear your head, and ask yourself if you can still keep pushing your point against TierShift knowing that the slip only makes sense in a highly specific situation. Remember how I deathtunnled Siv in our last game together? I feel like you're doing the same thing to TierShift, and it could potentially be just as damaging to the Town.

Gonna say it's not anen+alch.

Arcs effort to methodically figure out the game and its flavor felt natural
I don't feel good about this lynch.

The way the lynch was being rammed down does not look good

why does this come only after the lynch? You have not once tried to defend arc.

Mobilpost. I'm on my way to a birthday party of a friend of mine. If ArcAngel flips town Tiershift and Alchemist are scum.
Partly because of the hammervote partly because it happened after druuges case. And I had this idea before.

Of course if ArcAngel flips scum ignore that part above.

Why must everyone finish a Day when Im fcking not here lol

I think it speaks in anen's favour that he has not yet tried to ram through an alch-me scumteam.

[TierShift]

Okay, so what I want is for shos to explain his tell. Now. I can help researching, even.

I'm pretty sure this christmas is scum, with either anen or alch. I think TF is town. Gonna do associatives right now.

[TierShift]

okay, anen and christmas have close to zero interaction.
Christmas first fencesits on anen vs me. Then there is this:

I bet there will be no TierShift wagon now...

ToonFighter: I've never watched Shameless "thoroughly" but I've seen some episodes, so the story isn't a "complete one" in my mind. (I usually watch series while doing housework, playing Mafia, etc. you know.)

So, I'm examining Estival's reads now. (In order of appearance.)

TierShift kind of lean scum but town later.
Votes for This Christmas, 233.
Townreading Shos, 230.
Disliking This Christmas and Druuge because of trolling.
Voting for ToonFighter, 335, because he didn't read Shos's claim.
Unvotes in 359.
Scumreading TierShift in Aneninen, voting for Tiershift in 374.
Saying that This Christmas slipped, in 405.
Townreading ToonFighter and ArcAngel in 415. Lean town on Shos (419).
Saying that he wants to lynch Druuge in 433

________

These players may have gained something by silencing her: This Christmas, Druuge, TierShift, (Aneninen)
These players may have lost something by silencing her: ArcAngel, ToonFighter, (Shos)
No read on: Alchemist
(Less significant-looking names in brackets.)

Is there anyone else who thinks ThisChristmas slipped?

in which anen fencesits on TC's slip. As no one responds, he quickly stops talking about the slip (go check).

Town - arc, droog

Tiershift

Anen
Toon

Scum - shos, alchemist

and here is the obvious readslist where anen is in the middle and he does no effort to figure anen out.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

There's something that I don't like.
If all claims are real, it'd mean that the town has (1) a 1–shot Tracker (confirmed), (2) a Voyeur, (3) a Gunsmith and (4) a 1–shot Commuter. The scums have in this case a Roleblocker.
Wouldn't it be a bit unbalanced?

who suggested there's a roleblocker?

anen i dont like that comment

then there is this which is ignored by anen and quickly forgotten afterwards by TC.

Well.
investigation shows that by mi soopir sikrit tell, Aneninen is actually scum.
..which means I'm going to have to go through ALL his games to make sure I'm correct.

WTF?!?
I'm not scum.

Are you freaking out

No. I simply don't understand it at all.

And this is another shitty interaction.

P-P-P-Pretty sure I found the scumteam. They completely avoid each other and fencesit alllll the fucking time.

[TierShift]

yeah so alch-this christmas makes less sense. christmas wants alchemist gone and they interact about meaningful stuff early game, even though it is little. Most of all, I'm missing the awful fencesitting that TC shows with anen.

TC and Anen are scum, gg.
I'm just waiting for shos's tell and I'll give the scumteam 24 hours to defend themselves

[TierShift]

And the discrediting begins

you're also free to address my points.

[TierShift]

for the record, this is against site rules, so it's ok that it's not 100% lol

It's not against site rules if he doesn't do it on purpose.

TF, alch, feedback on tc and anenscum? Who do you think scum is?

[TierShift]

Anen, I asked you two questions in 826.

[TierShift]

Then respond to what I said about anen-TC interactions. What do you think of the other ponts I made on anen?

[TierShift]

Stop talking about the pigeon thing, btw. It's obviously a shit tell and it might make anen post pigeon pics. I DON'T WANT THAT

[TierShift]

I'll need to read back on the TC slip thing.

Do that. He just lets his concerns go when there's no response.

TC's reads also has Toon in the middle with Anen. On that point TF could also be TC's buddy.

yeah, but that's not a buddy tell in itself. It's that combined with the lack of interaction and the lack of finding him out. Nullreads happen. Why do you think TF is scum?

What do you think is bad about those other 2 interactions at the end?

It's talking just for the talking; there's nothing to find in them. Not really a genuine question by TC, just a quick answer by anen. It all means nothing. It's just talking for the talking, not for furthering the gamestate or figuring the other out.

Btw anen, what's your read on TC?

[TierShift]

I know scum often lack interactions with townies. I'm not talking about the lack of interaction between anen and TC; I'm talking about the meanngful interaction: there has been none. It's all fencesitting and empty questions without follow-up. But, I'll do a TF-TC iso and see what I can find.

[TierShift]

Uh okay so TC voting TF right before deadline but when TF's lynch was not going to happen anymore really looks like distancing and the rest of their ISO doesn't look that good, especially the beginning. But I still don't think TF is scum and no one has put forth anything to make me think otherwise.

Tf, what I want from you is how TC-alch interactions make more sense than TC-anen interactions.

[TierShift]

dis shite be crazy
I have a pot o' gold in {TC, Anen, TF} and I dunno which one is town.

Shos let me look up my lylo record as town for the past year.

[TierShift]

Uh, my lylo record is not as great as I thought. At least in the last two lylos I was in, I completely rocked! I don't live to many Lylos nowadays

[TierShift]

The moral of the story is: just leave it to me shosss imma figure this out

I'm not dead set on my scumteam but close

[TierShift]

or he has a fakeclaim, js

[TierShift]

I dun like AtE's...who do you think is scum, TC?

[TierShift]

Yeah, I'm ready for this to go down. TC obviously isn't even going to try to defend himself or solve the game. Anen has the knee-jerk reaction of discrediting me and basically says he's pretty sure I'm scum and that the case is soon to follow, but two days later, he admits he hasn't even read the game.

VOTE: anen

[TierShift]

ugghhhh shos you are the one not talking about my suspicions

[TierShift]

PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT YOUR CONSIDERATIONS SHOS THEN I'LL CONVINCE YOU OF THE SCUMTEAM AFTERWARDS

[TierShift]

TF, why am I in a bad light here? Who do you think is scum? Why do you think anen is NOT scum?

[TierShift]

Look, I know you guys all think TC is scum. He probably is. But I'm much more sure in anen atm as he fits the profile of caught scum EXACTLY. He just comes into this MyLo doing absolute shit and when I appears in my scumreads, he throws out a passive-aggressive remark (you only need one more mislynch, don't you). That's panicking scum. He follows up by promising a (ready) case on me, while later saying 'he missed quite a lot of things'. That means he does not have his case on me ready and was just handling out of instinct. I cannot see how you guys cannot see it.

TC just looks like he's giving up. That does nothing to change my read, as it is still a scumread and I'm pretty sure he's scum with anen. Nevertheless, it might be that I'm just looking at this really awkwardly and it's alch or even TF.

Why do you guys not see how anen's reaction is typical caught scum?

[TierShift]

Like why didn't anyone fucking respond to my long strain of posting 2 pages ago?

[TierShift]

I have to say that TF is getting better lately and TC, Anen looks like a scumteam to me, but I still can't let go of the TF scumread and I'm a titbit too reluctant to vote anen.

TS, have you see TC-anen connections?

Yeah, did you read my fucking posts?

Find out on the following page!

Pre-edit Goddammit fuck this ninjA

The answer is nl

[TierShift]

I meant no :/

[TierShift]

That does not point why anen is more scummy than TC if anything, and also, his 477 is a good post for scum..

I really did explain just that.


Alch, read my catchup again 2 pages ago and see if you need more explanation.

[TierShift]

(1) He acts as if there had been only the Page1 slip about him. He's been posting many times things like

"either you think it was a slip or not and if not, you have nothing against me"

. This, in this form hasn't been true for a long time.

I cannot remember doing this. I also can't remember you putting up any sort of other case earlier. Only if both these things are true, it's a valid point. I need quotes.

(2) He keeps misrepresenting me, I pointed out it eg. in my last post.

This is bullshit. You said you missed a lot of things and I took that as not being caught up, which it IS.

(3) As I explained a couple of days ago, he can be scum with our without Shos.

That's not a reason to think I'm scum.

(4) He launches a Setup speculation. Scums usually do that.

This is the biggest line of bullshit I ever heard. everyone does setup spec. I do setup spec. Scumme does setup spec. Townme does setup spec.

(5) Despite he said many times that I was scumhunting by finding the team before getting a scumflip, he's been doing the same with ThisChristmas and me.

It's mylo, you NEED to do that in MyLo.

(6) His style. I saw that in a game where he was scum. He's much more "grumpy", eg. suggesting ThisChristmas to replace out.

uh, no, shos did that. I asked him to stay.

Any more shit you wanna throw up against me?

[TierShift]

Coz I'm all gonna break it down down dowwwnn baby

[TierShift]

TierShift, I was just thinking about your claim. Why did you target shos N1?

Well, it was really the only way I could see my PR being put to use. I've seen too many a scum just claim 'I was blocked, of course' and then living a long time.

[TierShift]

btw alch I haven't forgotten about your request, I just haven't got to it yet. Not sure if I will soon.

[TierShift]

Shos, that was my crumb. Really?

[TierShift]

Read it. It says that I want to vote you, but I don't vote you. If I hadn't got my result, I'd have voted you there.
Then I hold a plea to keep away people from voting you, in which I was succesful.

[TierShift]

1) shos had recently claimed D1. There was no indication of any scum RB (or lack thereof).. The only claims were me (VT) and shos (gunsmith). Why would you assume he would be RB and claim he was roleblocked? Why not check a shos target (me for example, as he suspected me during D1, or any other suspicious player) and then catch shos contradiction he that person hadn't been 'gunsmithed'?

Shos would either die, be blocked, redirected, or any weird kind of other action or nothing could have happened to him (and thus needed to get a result or I'd confirm him as a liar). That's much better than getting the 1 in 8 chance he targets who I target. Which I still wouldn't be able to see if he got blocked.

2) shos had already been blocked N1. Nothing had changed about that by N2. There were no more claims D2, only AA9 died, and she was a tracker. shos would very likely be blocked again or die that night. Why did you target shos again? What were you expecting to see? Wasn't he already conftown in your eyes by then? With AA9's tracker flip it was possible some other player had a similar 1-shot ability. Why didn't you target anyone else to confirm/catch someone contradicting themselves? These details of your claim don't fully convince me yet.

After AA9's flip I thought I and shos were the only remaining town PR's. I targeted him for the slim chance of something like a town RB that stopped targeting him. I really didn't know who to use it on otherwise.

[TierShift]

That was my first posting strain of the day. I indicated that I normally would have voted you for the fact that you claimed you were blocked.

How is it not a crumb?

Btw, I crumbed again, wanna see it?

I usually don't crumb obviously but I try to make my results obvious. Anyone could deduce that I voyeured you if I ever were NK'd. Look at my behaviour before N1. Look at my behaviour afterwards.

Don't be an idiot here, shos.

[TierShift]

You really wouldn't notice that I tried really hard to get you lynched day 1 and then started day 2 doing everything I could to make you town to everyone?

Why the fuck would I do that if I didn't have an inno on you? Why would I focus like crazy on you otherwise?

[TierShift]

Where have I seen you conftown btw?

[TierShift]

Shos, I want others to believe you're town. How do I do that?

You're asking for a lengthy story about self-meta and crumbs and why my crumbing behaviour is town WITH PROOF. Do you want that?
You'll get it free with an unvote, I get the creeps when I'm voted in mylo. Especially when it's by town.

[TierShift]

Coupled with that I wanted to see your ISO and know where I went wrong. How much time does it take to write down my thoughts during that?

[TierShift]

I really want you to unvote. Afterwards you'll get the whole shtick I can give you.

Yes, I ISO'd you afterwards. I want to be able to read you. I like playing with you. I thought I had a good grip on your play. I didn't. What's so hard.

Just saying you're town after attacking you all day is going to raise a ton of questions. I didn't want that.