Mini 2084: Pokemon Ruby Mafia - Game Over

[Pine]

Hiiii

Going to go make dinner, I'll read up after. It's likely short enough and slow enough to forego my usual I-don't-read replacement meta.

[Pine]

Hiiii

Going to go make dinner, I'll read up after. It's likely short enough and slow enough to forego my usual I-don't-read replacement meta.

Feeling fat and lazy from dinner. Putting off catchup until first thing in the morning.

[Pine]

Soooo I didn't get to this today. Will do so when it isn't 3:35 AM

[Pine]

I've heard from a friend who heard from a friend that Pine lurks as town and tryhards as scum. If that's true that puts him as town here. But maybe he knows that and would lurk as scum? Who knows. CC was towny though. Not sure why I'm posting all this but k.

Nah, my man. Your friend doesn't know what they're talking about. I lurk in games I'm not invested in and tryhard in games I care about. While I anticipate getting thoroughly into this, I simply haven't caught up yet.

Come on. I would think my reputation would preclude such a transparent difference between scum and Town metas.

Also, take thirdhand meta with about fifty grains of salt. If you want to know mine, ask me. I don't lie about past games and patterns. What's the point?

[Pine]

You want someone with a transparent meta? Try Creature. I just skimmed his ISO for the purpose of this point, and am very comfortable declaring that Creature is Town this game.

[Pine]

Interested to hear some thoughts from the following people:

u r a person 2
Lil Uzi Vert
Cinnamon
ClearlyClarity

Lurker scum can be pretty dangerous. These four haven't posted much yet.

I think this looks good though

Espresso can be town

Why can’t this post come from scum? I disagree with his take on lurker scum to be honest.

You disagree that lurker scum can be dangerous?? Please elaborate.

You are unable to mislead, misdirect, and manipulate consistently if you’re lurking.

It's also not possible to contribute, and lurker scum is consistently a problem, Civ Mafia is a prime example of that. It's very valid to let town eat themselves alive.

Oh right, Civ mafia was the scum lurking out worked game. Though, mostly because town themselves were pro-scum.

The entire scumteam lurking is like relying on town to eat themselves.

Oh come on. Civ Mafia keeps getting brought up for this and that, often as a contrast between lurking and tryhard. It was the biggest damn game ever, and moved so ridiculously fast because there was a high concentration of shitposters, multiposters, and arguing hydra heads that it was difficult to keep up.

In particular, I wasn’t *lurking* that game. Throughout most of it I was posting at least a couple of times a day. I just got drowned out and left behind. Civ Mafia is exactly why some of us formed the Geriatric group and ruleset.

Sorry, I still get a little triggered by that game, especially accusations that I lurked to victory. It’s a bad example of everything excess, yet gets cited all the time. Caesar doth protest.

I’ve decided to enact my replacement strategy after all. I’ll read since I replaced in, and that’s it, barring ISOs or going back to review something that becomes relevant.

I’ll stay current from here out.

[Pine]

Yeah but you were a late replacement, and 60% of the scumteam got replaced at least twice.

[Pine]

So is DP a no-go today?

This pings my scumdar hard.

[Pine]

Your approach to the game is a scum one.

Haha now everyone knows

Your approach to the game is a scum one.

Goddamnit.

The only way I can keep alts straight and not slip is to use different browsers for them and not bookmark across accounts. I use Firefox/Safari for Pine, Chrome for modding or hydra, and Edge for an alt I want to keep secret. I also use a different board style for secret accounts, just like PTs. Silver for Pine and public alts, Sepia for secrets. The icons for all three browsers are right next to each other, and I can stay logged in/remembered on them without having to constantly fumble with accounts. Just never check a secret alt's game on your main and you won't be tempted to kneejerk respond.

[Pine]

Case on URAP2? I'm not opposed to sheeping, but tell me why.

[Pine]

So is DP a no-go today?

This pings my scumdar hard.

Why?

I think it's mostly "what is this person's objective?" If EP is Town, then their objective is to lynch their scumreads. If they're scum, then their objective is to blend in. A classic newscum strategy is to just go along with the consensus, keep your hands clean. Making an unpopular stand on something is difficult, risky, and Townish. So the quoted line, taking the temperature of the consensus, being willing to equivocate...it strikes me as newscum. It's hardly an ironclad read, I'd need to do an ISO dive to get a better handle. New players are always the worst to get a read on.

Still give me the case on URAP2, but depending on the ISO I may follow my own advice and pursue this lead.

[Pine]

Well damn, that's a reasonably Townish post. I'll ISO you when I settle in for the evening.

[Pine]

Well damn, that's a reasonably Townish post.

Why?

Self-assuredness, confidence in one's own record.

The best way to defend yourself is to simply BE Town and do Townish things. EP here is asserting that I'll inevitably come to that conclusion if I just read his ISO. We'll see.

[Pine]

Does meta on you exist?

I'm not asking for you to give any or link games, I'm phone posting. If meta on you exists I'll deal with you very differently here.

The non-lazy way to do that is to link to this game, Menalque's only completed one on site. He was practically glow-in-the-dark Town there.

[Pine]

Oh shit. Growlithe’s here.

[Pine]

When am I ever trustworthy?

[Pine]

Well that’s your mistake I suppose.

In all seriousness, I’m less trustworthy than usual, because I’m a replacement too, and I’m still getting my bearings. It doesn’t help that no one in this game seems interested in my questions.

[Pine]

Hmmm

That reaction looks a good bit saltier than is justified

[Pine]

I calls em like I sees em

[Pine]

I have a big catchup post, but I'm away from my laptop. I'll post it when I get home.

[Pine]

Done got prodded.

I've been trying to keep up and have largely been failing. Unfortunately, the last ~10 days has been the toughest of the year for me, as we train 70 staff members and get ready for the summer camp season. Now that it's actually started, I'll still be hella busy, but I'll have a more regular schedule and can set aside time every day.

I could just dump my overnight catchup post and call it a day, but what I've seen so far D2 has made me question some of those reads. I will have more time this afternoon to update that catchup and give you the Pine you deserve.

This game has my highest priority, as I haven't been fair to it.

[Pine]

FINALLY at my computer for the first real time in ~36 hours.

We're in our first week of summer camp with kids (last week was staff only) and my schedule is 18-hours-a-day nuts. Wednesday is my big day, where the theme week climaxes, and the second half of the week usually sees me in the office preparing all of the big stuff for the next week. In the office more = more time to spend here.

As requested, here is my unaltered N1 catchup. Only the vote at the end has been snipped, because I'm still ~18 pages behind. It likely won't change, though.

[Pine]

Okay, stream of consciousness overnight catch-up post...BEGIN.

Sorted through my ISO to find where I really started paying attention, hoping I can pick up that thread. Pithy entrance, empty promise to read back issues, quick check to clear Creature, ah.

So is DP a no-go today?

This pings my scumdar hard.

Let's start here. This remains valid. I don't know if DP is an alt, newbie, or what, but this pings me regardless. Town has reads or it doesn't. If it's not sure, it says so. Gaining and abandoning reads is normal. Seeking

permission

to pursue their reads is not Town.

502 to 507 come off kind of scummy from TG/RC. RC is way too experienced a player to really believe in a URAP2!flaking = URAP2!scum argument. It's a strawman against an undefended goal. Yeah, I know, it's RC, and loose cannon shite like this is kind of his forte, but I've seen tons of evidence that he takes advantage of his meta as scum to get away with things you wouldn't normally be able to do. Like this. Putting a pin in this, as it's too early to actually get rid of such a strong player without damning evidence.

In contrast, 501 on the same topic is the kind of rational consideration that makes Town!Creature so obvious.

517 - Blatant sheeping/buddying to the loudest leaders.
528 - TG/RC seeing Creature as a threat, then 529 jumping in a completely different direction
530 - Second empty sheeping I've seen from DP in as many pages
539 - THIS one feels like the scummy sheep, though. A naked sheep vote is bad, but an awfully-reasoned excuse to join the wagon is miles worse. Keeping an eye on Chemist
562 - A *third* quickfire example of DP mimicking TG/RC's reads without independent reasoning. I think this rules out a TG/DP scumteam, I don't think they scum theatre this badly
~Page 20 - 23 - ohfrz generally impressing me with Towniness. Asking good questions, isn't intimidated by TG/RC, displays independent reasoning. Unfazed by a flashwagon on him
574 - TG/RC immediately moves to discredit newbie replacement, par for the course.
~Page 23-24 - Menalque entrance strongly reminiscent of the Newbie game we played together where he was painfully obvTown
596 RC (just going to stop calling him Tim) again moves to discredit and silence alternate viewpoint. RC redflip strongly implicates GEmerald/Cinnamon.
~Page 25 - Menalque standing his ground remains Townish
615 - DP going after LUV slot starts the LUV/Firebringer wagon while the goal is undefended for godawful reasons. Solicits ohfrz teamup. At least the fourth baseless votehop in half a dozen pages.
632 - 634 - GEmerald reaction to Menalque's suspicion is bad.

>>>>At this point I am looking at {TG/RC, GEmerald, maybe DP or Chemist} as preliminary scumteam<<<<<

639 is Towny as fuck, Menalque practically takes the words out of my mouth here.
641 - RedPanda wall also Towny af
651 - Oh right Klick is in this. Haven't seen anything useful from them
>>>ISO skim<<<
---->Pushing RC and DP early on, asking solid questions, seems independently reasoned, need to see what 799 is all about when I get there. Conclusion: Nothing scummy apparent, plenty of Townpoints to be had, moving on

idk I have too many townreads at this moment I think. I need to prune that list.

I am gonna call scum rn as pinkball, ofrhz, and Pine. Why Pine? Idk. I want to townread pine and that is the only reason I want to say he is town so he must actually be scum.

my logic is flawless.

Awwww, flattered.

Everything I can see from Firebringer on page 27-28 looks like pugnacious Town. Cheap to say so after he's flipped, but this makes me want to scrutinize the upcoming wagon.

742 - Fourth blind-sheep from DP following RC, fifth empty vote. DP really developing into my prime suspect. RC could just be being RC, GEmerald not suspicious if RC!Town, Chemist too low content to case, but DP is scumming the hell out of this game right now.
746 - Is this a strawman? I'm not sure if that's the term for what's going on here, but DP is definitely making up a bullshit case. Probably not a DP/GEmerald team. Possible scumteams kind of dividing. {RC, GEmerald, (Chemist/EP)} vs {DP, (Chemist), (EP)}. So far evidence against DP/RC and DP/GEmerald

((Pause at page 30, half way break))
SOLID TOWNLIST
Creature
Klick
ofrhz

PROBABLY TOWN
RedPanda
Menalque
Pink Ball

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 1
RC/Tim
GEmerald

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 2
Detective Pikachu

POSSIBLY SCUM ON EITHER TEAM
Chemist
Espresso Patronum

UNKNOWN
Pink Ball

799 - Crap, Klick's "100% Town!" on Pink Ball was in jest. Back to zero with that read. as hoping that would help. Need to ISO now.
>>>ISO skim<<<
---->Mostly shitposting, interspersed with real reads, like 614. Upcoming 807 looks organic and spontaneous/genuine. I don't agree with many of his conclusions, but process seems fine. Can be Town until he does something to dissuade me. Looking ahead, posts until EOD follow similar pattern of shitposting/reading. Editing above readslist to properly reflext PB.
818 + 820 - First solidly Townish thing I've seen from GEmerald
822 + 824 + FB on Page 34 - Ughhhh I probably would have scumread Firebringer for this too. Hard to say after the fact, but he'd at least have ruined my incipient Townread on him.
825 -

Fifth

blatant sheep of RC by DP, and sixth low-content votehop in 14 pages
841 - Weirdly getting Town!RC vibes from this interaction. Might just be because I'm so intent on DP and have ruled out DP/RC team.
851 - First independent thought I've seen from EP, also first time I've seen him make any effort to stand up for himself
863 - 865 - Several more good EP posts. I don't see the positive value of lining up lynches when you know the first domino is going to flip green. EP might be Town after all, which blasts a hole in my suspected DP-anchored scumteam. Will revisit when I have time (read: prob never)
870 - First Menalque post that didn't bleed Town as far as I can recall. Also seems to be laying low now that the pressure's off. Big entrance, fights off wagon, disappears. HMMMMMMMM
901 - Reeeeeally don't like this L-2 by GEmerald. Looks a lot like scum casually increasing the pressure/pushing to EOD.
>>>Lots of shitposting going on here
926 - Really? A self L-1? In what world does that work to ratchet down pressure?
936 - Ummm a fucking SIXTH DP sheep of RC. Yeah, I know they were both already voting Firebringer, but at this point the only Town explanation for it is that he's got some kind of repressive post restriction that mandates he chain his vote to RC and not talk about it
940 - I don't blame this AT ALL after the last couple of pages
941 - No shit
949 - Yeah, Klick is Town. Scum!Klick takes the ball and runs with it, they don't get introspective.
986 - And that's flip.

===============================

OKAY

I think the above readslist can stand. It's got some complications, like some late-day doubts on the Menalque and EP reads, but it's a solid start.

DP is my chief suspect going into D2, with that flip determining whether I go after RC/GEmerald or dive into the Chemist, EP, Menalque morass.

<<<Vote on DP removed until I can finish catch-up>>>

[Pine]

At the time? It was inspired by my scum!RC read.

Menalque (whom I TR) comes in, points a finger at you. RC attacks the shit out of Menalque. On that evidence, little things supported the read.

It is, obviously, obsolete. This is one of the big reasons I didn't want to post the overnight catchup unaltered.

[Pine]

818 and 820 were counter-evidence for the read, but your vote on Firebringer still looks scummy as hell. With an RC greenflip, it puts you into a kind of neutral limbo that needs to be sorted.

The fact that you seem to not be interested in any of the nuanced things I had to say, including all of the above, and jumped only to "what's he think about me" does you no favors.

[Pine]

Anyway, thoughts on my ideas I've proposed recently?

I'm not there yet.

I've had approximately zero time since the first campers of the season arrived ~54 hours ago.

(For those interested, I am the Program Director. I answer directly to the overall Camp Director, and my job primarily deals with the design, logistics, and execution of all major activities. I also oversee all of the program staff, like lifeguards, boating, archery, arts and crafts, nature, and our ropes course. That's on top of general responsibilities as one of the senior leadership staffers who might get asked to cover nearly any area or group of kids at a moment's notice, and the fact that I'm the on-duty evening EMT. The second half of the week is better. Robin Hood will have defeated the Sheriff of Nottingham after the tournament tomorrow, the problem with our Nature director's lesson plan that ate up most of my Tuesday has been resolved, and it's mostly resolution-phase story elements and office work prepping next week for me now.)

So it's 12:20 AM and I'm in the dining hall wifi. I have a big day tomorrow, until after the big campwide activity in the early afternoon. The downhill side of my week is pretty relaxed, my job is mostly frontloaded. I'm going to bed now, I expect tomorrow I can get current.

[Pine]

Maybe you missed where I wrote that post before daystart. I know it’s outdated.

[Pine]

Yeah, bullshit there's no turning back. A) We're not lynching until I've had my say and B) If I decide he's Town after all I'll fight you on it.

Hold your damn horses. There's no rush.

[Pine]

"Big Cool Post" number ONE. It only covered pages 19-40. I've got 19 more to go. My primary reason for suspecting GEmerald has evaporated, so I'll be re-evaluating him. Come this evening I may either defend him or hammer him myself.

[Pine]

I'd greatly prefer we not lynch Gamma before I finish catching up this evening. At present, I don't think I'd be on board with it over better options, but we'll see.

The DP loyal recruitment changes things, and I'll need to take a long look at that too.

[Pine]

Seriously, go read Menalque’s Newbie game. He died N1 with the entire player base TRing him. I replaced into a screwed scumslot, and thought going after him was suicidal.

His behavior here is almost identical.

[Pine]

Here’s his ISO from Newbie 1934: viewtopic.php?t=79718&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Pine]

I'm curious about Gamma's reasoning and thought process though.

...fair. Didn’t think you were coming from that direction. *smoke bomb*

[Pine]

what is that possiible in games with night?

I don’t love that RP has changed his vote off and gone to “reread the game” based on what I thought was some not particularly deep interaction with klick, where klick wasn’t even particularly eating his game solve ability. I still think he’s p town but if gamma flips scum then that pings me.

I have to reread. I've been playing the game not knowing about daytalk.

I’m not sure I buy this. Daytalk has been common for ages, and fake “there’s daytalk?” Townslips are practically a tradition.

This shakes my TR of Red Panda, I’ll need to re-evaluate him as I finish my D2 catchup this morning

[Pine]

I don't think I need to fake a townslip to be townread and also fwiw I think my gameplay is better than relying on shit like that.

That's...fair. Sorry. I forgot for a second who you were. You are indeed better than that.

That said, I also don't think a double-fake is beyond your experience and ability, even if it is rather more far-fetched. I've done that kind of thing myself, where you do something blatant, then use experience as a shield, so.......it's NAI, I suppose. I'll still be reviewing my earlier Townread, but I won't hold this against you. Fair?

Also, fwiw, I'm sitting down right now to go through D2. I've got about an hour uncontested, that should get me through ~half of D2.

[Pine]

Cinnamon and Ep are not scum/scum.

Explain this? They're both on my list.

[Pine]

Wow, rude

Playing the game is not rude. C'mon.

[Pine]

Implying that I'm scum is rude. C'mon.

Talking about playing, what are you doing right now, Pine?

Getting ready for the big Thursday night closing campfire. The Sheriff of Nottingham is going to show up and demand a firelighting tax...of one shilling. "Oh hey that isn't so unreasonable..." "I wasn't finished! One shilling...from every camper bwahahahaha!" He'll then up it to two when we say we aren't paying, then douse the torch in a conveniently-placed fire bucket. He'll be booed off stage, and I'll get the campers chanting "Robin Hood, Robin Hood" etc. Robin Hood won't show (the staff member had to go home unexpectedly tonight) but I've arranged for a "magic" fire to light, seemingly without assistance. Just how this works is a closely-guarded secret

In other words, I'm current from ~page 60, but still have a good bit of D2 to read. Our Waterfront Director had an interview today, and the Assistant Camp Director went home sick, so I didn't get the free time I was expecting. I'll sit down at my laptop in an hour or two, three at most.

[Pine]

I really don’t like how hard the push has been to divert away from gamma towards ofhrz/chemist (clearly increasingly ofhrz)

On the contrary, I'm surprised by how little attention ofhrz has received all day up until this point. Even now there's an alarming amount of fighting this wagon with hardly anyone expressing a townread on him.

My ofhrz TR is pretty strong.

[Pine]

I really don’t like how hard the push has been to divert away from gamma towards ofhrz/chemist (clearly increasingly ofhrz)

On the contrary, I'm surprised by how little attention ofhrz has received all day up until this point. Even now there's an alarming amount of fighting this wagon with hardly anyone expressing a townread on him.

My ofhrz TR is pretty strong.

Can you spell out how you got such a strong TR on ofrhz? I tried looking for the answer, but a Ctrl+F of ofrhz in your ISO yields two results.

Well, part of that is that I pretty frequently misspell his damn name. The other part is that in my stream of consciousness in 1422 I made heavy use of the

post

tag to make it easier to read than if I'd used the

quote

tag. I tried to remember to use the person's name in my comment, but it didn't always happen, and I definitely misspelled it at least once (at a glance). Given that that post is where I developed and explained my ofrhz TR...*shrug*

Pages 20-23 in particular put Town!ofhrz on display. To adapt what I said in 1422, he was asking good questions, wasn't intimidated by Tim/RC pushing him, and displayed independent reasoning. He was unfazed by a flashwagon on him, and stayed focused on his own reads. Any one of those things looks Townish to me, and together they form a strong read.

Awww fuck it. I said like six hours I'd sit down with this in three, and it didn't happen. I'm not holding up the game any more. Come hell or high water, I'm not sleeping until I'm caught up.

[Pine]

new readslist

DP
RP
EP
pine
ofhrz
klick
chemist

creature
pink
gamma

Menalque et al, can you label your lists more cogently? I have no idea how to read this.

Most people simple do a rank-ordered scummiest to towniest or the inverse, or else put people into labeled categories.

[Pine]

Activity tell? I'm unfamiliar.

Oh right you're not 2018 generation.

Okay, but without labels and an odd gap in the middle, that's hard to tell. I've been reading Menalque, so I could intuit that GEmerald was the bottom, but lacking that it's confusing.

Up to page 52. Probably done within half an hour.

[Pine]

Fell asleep at my desk. Never mind, finish in the morning.

[Pine]

Harrumph, I'm here.

Mario's mustache won't stay on, Luigi forgot to bring a green shirt, and the paint on Bowser's turtle shell is taking forever to dry.

Peach's dress is on fleek though.

[Pine]

It’s Super Mario Week at camp.

C’mon, man, keep up.

Also, I think this is officially my only active game.

[Pine]

Wait never mind. It’s not.

[Pine]

You can quote your post if you live

This post concerns me more than pretty much any other Gamma has posted.

[Pine]

Are we giving pine too much power here with two possible hammers?

I'm not sure I back either lynch right now.

At 9:16 I'm sitting down at my laptop, probably for the rest of the night. There's a massive thunderstorm predicted for tomorrow, so the huge campwide game I had planned just went in the bin. We're scaling back to an indoor skits-and-songs thing with appearances by costumed characters to be staged at the end. I still need to finish the Bowser costume, but Mario, Luigi, and Peach are ready to go.

The upshot is that, while I have to go make a new write-up so that our staff know the plan, I have a bunch of unexpected time tonight.

I'll make my decision on whether to back one of those two options or push through a flashwagon within an hour or two.

[Pine]

Meanwhile, over in PB's iso....

Let's lynch Gamma boys. Even if we're wrong, we lynch ofrhz tomorrow. This VC seems to be that we have a scum wagon and a counterwagon, so let's do it

Can I get a promise from all the ofrhz voters to vote Gamma tomorrow if ofrhz flips town?

ofrhz will you hate me if I hammer you?

Now, I know that this posts will look awful if ofrhz flips scum, but whatever

I won't lynch ofrhz yet 'cause maybe Pine and Elements join us and Gamma gets lynched

These quotes are all internally consistent. Your push on PB doesn't make any sense.

Further, when you're as Town as PB is, you can afford to play a bit looser.

[Pine]

Those don't look like town reads on ofhrz. They're admittedly cherry-picked quotes, but I don't see how PB can say he's not at least a little bit on the fence about this.

Even if he wants Gamma gone, he's happy with ofrhz tomorrow.

Don't cherry pick as Town, and don't admit to doing it as scum unless called on it (and then only in a shame-faced kind of way). Cherry-picking means intentionally ignoring contrary evidence, which is distinctly not Town.

[Pine]

Are you legit telling me to focus on defense over scumhunting? Honestly that makes you more towny because scum do what you're telling me to do which makes me think you believe your hype.

Scumhunting IS defense.

[Pine]

Please, for the love of mith, don't.

This thread does not need a continued rehashing of your bickering.

It needs a decision. Give me some breathing room and you'll have it.

[Pine]

Boys

Retreat to your corners or be sent to your rooms

[Pine]

Oh my god stop arguing.

You are NOT going to convince one another at this point.

[Pine]

Like you've

actually

hurt my feeling here.

This is an agonizing way to play mafia.

[Pine]

I seriously toyed with lolhammering GEmerald last night to end the argument, but that was an emotional urge rather than a rational one.

[Pine]

I don't think it matters anymore, as I'm current on the gamestate, but here's my aborted 40-60 catchup post.

[Pine]

Arright. Starting a new stream-of-consciousness read-through.

First, ofc, is re-evaluating old reads in light of the flip.

SOLID TOWNLIST
Creature
Klick

ofrhz

PROBABLY TOWN

RedPanda

?
Menalque
Pink Ball

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 1

RC/Tim

GEmerald

?

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 2

Detective Pikachu

POSSIBLY SCUM ON EITHER TEAM
Chemist
Espresso Patronum
==================
Tim flipping Town has me going 'meh'. RC at his best is frustrating to read. This is great for his scumgame, where he can be a loose cannon and just blame his meta, but it's awful for fellow Townies, who are hopeless to read his erratic behavior and have to step lightly around him. He's good, but it's often his way or the highway. I haven't

technically

gotten there yet, but I know DP is about to get cleared too, so I have to cross him off. This doesn't vindicate GEmerald, but it does remove the most damning piece of evidence against him. That leaves me with Chemist and Espresso Patronum, the latter of whom I was having doubts about. While it's nice to consolidate, it does deflate my working theories a bit. Recent events make me want to take another look at GEmerald, RP, and ofhrz, too.

Okay, getting started on Page 40.

+I don't like RP's daystart. His push on Menalque seems I don't know, empty? I haven't seen any really good reasons for it, and none of them original to RP iirc.
1017 - Okay, I'm going to level with you all. When I got to this post, DP's declaration of being inducted into the Hood, I had a mini-epiphany, and thought HOLY SHIT THIS COULD BE FAKE. Practically everyone had posted, no one else had claimed the hood, and the action failing is entirely possible if Tim/RC targeted scum. It'd be free clearance. Hell, I did something similar in DC Universe Mafia back in the day, where I waited to be the last player to post D1 and fakeclaimed Miller in my post 1. It worked flawlessly. So I grabbed a pad and started scribbling, crossing off names. When DP posted, only Chemist, Klick, ofrhz, and DP himself hadn't posted at least once. With at least one of those likely scum, it's not an *insane* risk, but still improbable, especially with the level of detail in the alleged Hood conversation. So never mind, he's probably telling the truth. Thought I had something there for a sec
1026 - Chemist brings up VCA of the lynchwagon. Three confirmed Townies on it, incl Firebringer himself. Chemist bringing this up makes me immediately suspicious - it's SUPER early to try VCA, and that makes me think it might make the incipient VCA misleading/disingenuous. However, I've got three suspects on it (EP, GEmerald, RP) so I'll keep it in mind.
1032 - 1040 - Creature continues to obvtown, saying a lot of what I just said. 1033 is particularly insightful, I probably shouldn't give RP a pass on the hammer.
1042 - Go home, Klick, you're drunk. Creature just analyzed the VCA like a fucking champ.
1047 + 1047 - GEmerald downplaying the VCA. What are you afraid of?
1059 - 1064 - Ewwww. RedPanda trying to mayor the Townbloc is really slimy here.
1066 + 1068 - Menalque's walls here make me think of a conspiracy theorist and their little shrine of evidence about a topic no one else cares that deeply about. As far as I'm considered, that's hyperTownie. I don't think it's nearly as compelling as Menalque does, but HE finds it compelling, and that's sufficient to reaffirm my TR on Menalque.
1080 - Oh fuck yeah, Chemist is scum. Not even really trying to hide it, is he? Just openwolfing onto the GEmerald wagon. Can't dismiss this as a poorly-executed bus, though.
+Pages 44-46 start with Creature spouting some very nice wisdom about how off-topic discussion ruins games and Town of Salem sucks, then engaging in a 2.5-page rant off-topic. Bad form, my man. Made for easy 2AM reading before it veered back on topic though.

Mafia has turned into a activity oligarchy since then.

FUCKING PREACH. Activity tells are absolute trash.
1188 - PB nails why Chemist is scum. Chemist is trying to look like he's trying, and failing at it.
>>>>Bottom of page 50 pause. Yeah, not many posts called out lately, but a lot if it is because ~60% of the 40s was Creature talking to himself. The back half of the 40s was like 80%. RedPanda is looking worse, Chemist is openwolfing. I'm a bit annoyed that Creature was on Chemist and seems to have talked himself out of it, but it is what it is. Current scumteam looks like {Chemist, two of RP/GE/EP}. Come to think of it, EP's been super quiet.<<<<<
1258 - Nice, I didn't catch that.
1260 - I don't buy this response from RP.

[Pine]

So yeah, my read says Chemist/RP team. Third is likely in {GEmerald/EP}.

[Pine]

Umm.

Holding off on a RP vote because he's at L-1 already. Need to give possible investigatives a chance to check in at bare minimum.

[Pine]

Apologies for multipost. Packing for an annual family trip for the next ~36 hours to the St. Lawrence River. I get 4G service there most of the time, but as the Canadian border is RIGHT THERE it sometimes thinks I'm roaming and wants to charge me extra.

Consider this intent to hammer, pending check-ins. I want a claim from Red Panda.

PE: Yes, Creature. I actually reference it in the post you didn't apparently read.

[Pine]

1017 - Okay, I'm going to level with you all. When I got to this post, DP's declaration of being inducted into the Hood, I had a mini-epiphany, and thought HOLY SHIT THIS COULD BE FAKE. Practically everyone had posted, no one else had claimed the hood, and the action failing is entirely possible if Tim/RC targeted scum. It'd be free clearance. Hell, I did something similar in DC Universe Mafia back in the day, where I waited to be the last player to post D1 and fakeclaimed Miller in my post 1. It worked flawlessly. So I grabbed a pad and started scribbling, crossing off names. When DP posted, only Chemist, Klick, ofrhz, and DP himself hadn't posted at least once. With at least one of those likely scum, it's not an *insane* risk, but still improbable, especially with the level of detail in the alleged Hood conversation. So never mind, he's probably telling the truth. Thought I had something there for a sec

Probably not, but I think it's valuable to post my mindset/thought process. The bulk of that catchup was written the night I fell asleep at my desk.

[Pine]

He’s confirmed Town

[Pine]

Mislynching DP is gonna be way more embarrassing than losing to scum!DP.

Yeah, this. I considered whether it was fake, but the only way there isn’t a CC is if RC targeted scum, which is an enormously risky/ballsy move with so many people not having posted at D2 start.

If it WAS a lucky gamble, he deserves the win.

[Pine]

No. That’s what I was checking for. Several people hadn’t posted, and there’s a good chance the theoretical other neighbor wouldn’t have claimed yet. Scum!DP would have been taking an enormous unnecessary risk.

[Pine]

Like I said, that wall was written around a week ago and never really finished. When I got to the neighborized claim, I had an excited moment of epiphany, but the evidence actually backed up the claim rather than refuting it.

I swear to god, I’ve said all of this before. Read my damn posts.

[Pine]

@Pine I remember that now but bear in mind I had 48 hours where I was focusing on other games

No excuses, play like a champion.

(He said, having made abundant valid excuses this game)

[Pine]

If the speed with which the RP wagon built was concerning, the speed with which it fell apart should be alarming.

[Pine]

Let’s go with Chemist, then.

VOTE: Chemist

[Pine]

As much as I appreciate the whiteknighting, relax. Creature is Town.

I could see an EP lynch too. His views seem super flexible, and almost eagerly conforming.

[Pine]

+I don't like RP's daystart. His push on Menalque seems I don't know, empty? I haven't seen any really good reasons for it, and none of them original to RP iirc.

and this what does this mean? I never pushed for menalque?

I checked my notes. I conflated Gamma and Menalque. Your Gamma vote felt inorganic.

The error is immaterial, the important stuff was later on.

[Pine]

And the fact of the matter is that I didn’t like the way you were prosecuting it.

[Pine]

It felt faked

I believe I’ve been clear on this

[Pine]

Faking one Towny wall is easy. You don’t get to coast on it the rest of the game

[Pine]

Because he bleeds Town

[Pine]

Creature’s meta is well-established. He lurks and snipes as scum, is active and takes hard stances as Town. While there is some evidence of this meta evolving in the intervening year or so since I last played with him, I’ve kept an eye out for some details I’d rather not divulge. Some trade secrets need to stay secret.

I do not support a Creature wagon or lynch. RP or Chemist are my preferred for today. I think the third is in {GEmerald, EP} and I’m starting to lean towards EP.

[Pine]

This is a very inactive game. Could mean scum are happy with where it's headed and we need to seriously rethink everything

I do not support a Creature wagon or lynch. RP or Chemist are my preferred for today. I think the third is in {GEmerald, EP} and I’m starting to lean towards EP.

@Pine, how do respond to Elements' observation? Do you think the RP and Chemist wagons are too easy?

I don't know that "too easy" is a thing in the midgame. I think they accumulated a lot of votes quickly because they're widely perceived as scummy, not because of some kind of coordinated plot.

If you squint hard enough, you can find scum motivation in whatever you want. RP and Chemist are getting wagoned for good reasons.

[Pine]

Creature’s meta is well-established. He lurks and snipes as scum, is active and takes hard stances as Town. While there is some evidence of this meta evolving in the intervening year or so since I last played with him, I’ve kept an eye out for some details I’d rather not divulge. Some trade secrets need to stay secret.

I do not support a Creature wagon or lynch. RP or Chemist are my preferred for today. I think the third is in {GEmerald, EP} and I’m starting to lean towards EP.

Literally do I have to say this every single game?

There. Is. No. Reason. Why. Meta. Can’t. Evolve. In. This. Game.

It is very simple

Creature has not been doing p much anything

From a strong player (by rep seemingly) that’s antitown play

Yeah, you can bite me. I've been playing with Creature for a couple of years now, and you've known him for about five minutes.

Further, "Creature isn't doing anything" is YOUR interpretation. He's not being an asshole about it, but he's definitely got reads, and they've been evolving in a logical manner. The guy doesn't have to throw himself into the meat grinder of Pink Ball vs GEmerald to "do something," he just has to be scumhunting - and he is.

[Pine]

How many times do I have to ask you why creature is town before you answer me

Approximately negative five times at this point. Just because the explanation wasn't to your liking isn't my problem. That's your own confirmation bias talking, kid.

[Pine]

Non-presence? Really? Mr I've done dick with my IC status?

[Pine]

I was getting ready to refute the vote tally thing but...hunh. I guess I haven’t voted before now.

It’s kind of immaterial, as I’ve been pushing Chemist since at least D2. I was also prepared to vote DP and RP at various points, but did not for good reasons.

The problem is that I’ve been behind and outdated for a while. As for having never seen someone post outdated reads...get out more. It’s unusual, but hardly original.

[Pine]

I’m missing a few pages in the 50s but am effectively caught up. It was my intention (after the night I fell asleep at my desk) to finish those pages and post the complete thing, but it didn’t happen, so I dumped the now-outdated work in progress into the thread.

Thought process and insight are always valuable, even if outdated. I’m not sure what bug is up your ass about this, or if you’re just being obstreperous.

[Pine]

Also don’t think I like pine ignoring me about creature

Ignoring you about fucking what? I explained myself, you just didn’t understand.

[Pine]

I’ve gotten really apathetic about this game.

Every time we get momentum, we pussyfoot away from it

In hindsight I ought to have hammered RP when I had the chance

This Town is afraid of success

Have the balls to stick to your guns

RedPanda + Chemist + EP

The fact that two of those have flipped on me since daystart should really be evidence in favor of that solve

[Pine]

I have literally no idea why chemist is not lynched yet

Because he’s scum, and they’re not bussing

[Pine]

In hindsight I ought to have hammered RP when I had the chance

caught pine in a contradiction and now he regrets.

What fucking contradiction? I stated intent to hammer after everyone had checked in, then the rest of the wagon chickened out

I’m still fully on board

VOTE: Red Panda

Flail more

[Pine]

With loyal neighborizor dead I don't see how we are expecting more hard clears. Maybe, maybe not? If someone had two innos, that might be worth claiming, but I'm not assuming we have anthing left that can generate innos so I'm not sure what the point in massclaiming today would be other than telling scum where to shoot

Well, we should have atleast two town PRs through the remaining players. We'd get a clear on them I guess.

This is, frankly, the first thing that has made me worried about Creature!scum

This is exactly the kind of thing I’d say to set up a PR scumbuddy to get falsely cleared

[Pine]

I hadn’t contradicted myself about Creature until post 2425

Quote the contradiction. I fucking dare you

[Pine]

Pine - "Creature meta is he lurks and snipes as scum."

Creature lurked most of day2. When I led on ofhrz and tried to get creature involved he disappeared prod dodged multiple times. "ofrhz" was supposed to be creatures scum read.

That’s cherry picking one line from a munch longer statement

Forget Chemist. Lynch this blatant scumfuck now

[Pine]

This really feels like something scum!you would say.

Of course I say that as scum. I say it as any alignment - internal consistency is like, a basic part of the game.

PE: God damn it Creature this is why we can’t have nice things.

[Pine]

Wished we could lynch the two people we (mostly) all agree are scum.

Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda? Anyone? Bueller?

[Pine]

I was put at L-1 today. I think you could glean a lot of info on my wagon if you townread me.

...
Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda?
...

The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved. Seeing Chemist flip would help sort that, in addition to the other benefits of a Chemist lynch (lylo liability, bandwagoning, ellitell)

I don't see scum bussing so early in the day. If Chemist flips scum, RP is likely town.

Whoa hold up. Your assertion is blatantly bullshit. It discounts the possibility of a planned bus, which is nonsense.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I think I want to see this flip. All due respect to GEmerald, I’ve heard one too many things I can’t justify from an honest Town perspective

[Pine]

I was put at L-1 today. I think you could glean a lot of info on my wagon if you townread me.

...
Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda?
...

The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved. Seeing Chemist flip would help sort that, in addition to the other benefits of a Chemist lynch (lylo liability, bandwagoning, ellitell)

I don't see scum bussing so early in the day. If Chemist flips scum, RP is likely town.

Whoa hold up. Your assertion is blatantly bullshit. It discounts the possibility of a planned bus, which is nonsense.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I think I want to see this flip. All due respect to GEmerald, I’ve heard one too many things I can’t justify from an honest Town perspective

So you're telling me scum planned to bus RP and leave him at a hammer for almost an hour? Assuming what you're saying is true, that means both scum were on the wagon... that leaves scum!RP vulnerable to the whims of every other town.

That's an incredibly risky plan for very little reward. Your call-out doesn't make sense.

That is an incredibly bullshit interpretation of what I said.

Your version is that RP’s wagon must be entirely TvS, while ignoring the possibility that one of the votes might be a planned bus. There is in fact a middle ground between “everyone on RP is Town” and “the entire scumteam bussed”

See, this kind of nonsense opinion doesn’t come from Town

[Pine]

VOTE: Chemist

Finally

[Pine]

It’s been like herding cats in this damn game.

[Pine]

Yeah, no. Menalque is still Town.

Creature, your flip-flopping and unwillingness to focus threatened put us in LYLO today. I was telling you from daystart to go Chemist.

Menalque

Detective Pikachu

Gamma Emerald

RedPanda

Creature

EspressoPatronum

Pine

Firebringer

(7) -

Pink Ball, Tim Goodman, Detective Pikachu,

EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald,

Firebringer

, RedPanda

ofrhz

(6) - RedPanda,

Chemist1422,

Gamma Emerald, Creature, EspressoPatronum,

Pink Ball

Chemist1422

(5) -

Detective Pikachu

, EspressoPatronum, Red Panda, Creature,

Pine

You know what I see? I see Gamma Emerald on both Town lynches and avoiding the scum lynch like the plague. I see Menalque off of both easy Townlynches. I see EP and RP on every lynch. The only people I see acting like uninformed majority are DP, Creature, Menalque, and I.

This leads me to suspect I was wrong about GEmerald. It also explains hi defense of me D3 - he's trying to pocket me. GEmerald is my preferred lynch today.

As for RP and EP, the VCA suggests scum between them. I don't think they can BOTH be scum though, because I don't think they both bus Chemist.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

PE: DP, I could also be willing to talk about EP, but I'd rather get rid of GEmerald first, then go into D4 with some slack to figure out which of them it is.

[Pine]

GEmerald!scum also explains the weird EOD on D2. They were already all in ofrhz, the counterwagon to one of their own. The day stalled because Town was uncertain and scum was already fully invested.

[Pine]

@DP - We seem to be thinking in parallel w/r/t one in {EP|RP}.

Guessing wrong about them puts us in 3:2 LYLO, which is really risky.

Let's talk about {GE|Menalque}

[Pine]

Menalque is Town, Creature. Pull your head out of your adorable, Totodile cloaca.

[Pine]

I think there's scum offwagon so one of them must be scum.

Explain in greater detail?

Menalque is Town, Creature. Pull your head out of your adorable, Totodile cloaca.

Can you be less cringey, please?

I'm in a mood.

[Pine]

Everyone has evidently forgotten how scummy Pine was yesterday

Oh yeah, I forgot. Pushing a successful scum lynch for two days makes me scummy these days.

Please. You only started scumreading me when I got serious about suspecting you.

[Pine]

actually maybe we should check EP today

My only concern with that is that I think the EP|RP dichotomy is real. The frustrating part of it is that they're both really scummy, and I'm not sure which one's guilty.

[Pine]

I think there's scum offwagon so one of them must be scum.

Explain in greater detail?

Wagonomics

Really, though. Which wagon are you talking about? There have been three successful lynches so far.

[Pine]

Which wagon are you talking about?

Chemist's wagon.

If both Mena and Gamma are town, it means two scum have bussed Chemist.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm that's a fair point. Chemist was kind of a liability, though, and the possibility of a double-bus shouldn't be discounted.

Even so, I'll go over Menalque's iso again.

PE: Up until it got serious? I pushed Chemist for two gamedays, then hammered him. Fuck off.

[Pine]

Chemist was kind of a liability, though, and the possibility of a double-bus shouldn't be discounted.

If we're both town, then EP + RP would be double bussing.

Right - but you were suggesting one on/one off. I was disputing the ironclad nature of the assertion.

[Pine]

Yes, we are.

VOTE: EP

[Pine]

should I vote EP? why does this game feel zz

Yes

Gamma Emerald is also a good vote. Vote there and I’ll hammer

[Pine]

What? I’ve been pushing you all day.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

DP, be my guest and hammer this scumfuck

[Pine]

Awful? I’ve been rather clear and have fully explained myself.

[Pine]

DP, I could also be willing to talk about EP, but I'd rather get rid of GEmerald first, then go into D4 with some slack to figure out which of them it is.

All of this is still valid.

GEmerald first, then we sort EP|RP while we’re not in LYLO

[Pine]

Y tho

[Pine]

So?

[Pine]

Tim’s did

Yours isn’t Tim’s

[Pine]

Further, the existence of a Town Loyal Neighborizer makes a scum disloyal neighborizer like...practically poetry, from a design perspective. You could also easily be GEmerald’s partner, trying a last-ditch effort to save him. Fakeclaiming Masons with your buddy under pressure is a time-honored strategy because it works.

Are you the alleged neighborizer, or is Gamma?

PE: lolno. Paraphrasing a role PM (or neighborhood status) takes a minute, crafting a good fakeclaim takes forever

Noooooope. Even more inclined to think this is a variant on the fake!Mason claim

[Pine]

Which

Of

You

Is

The

Neighborizer

[Pine]

If I’m going to give this the time of day we need fullclaims in EP and GE’s next posts.

[Pine]

Because I'd like to finish Ep before starting anyone new

idk about you tbh

But I know Pine looks bad here

VOTE: Pine

Am I going to actually have to demonstrate to you how Pine's ISO isn't a scum!Pine ISO?

You notice how GEmerald’s solid Townread on me evaporated as soon as I started suspecting him?

I'm still doing my Ep read through but I do have a question for Menalque: my predecessor Cinnamon used the term "right now" a lot. Now you claim a lot of experience with Cinnamon, so I want you to take a page out of the scumhunting book of a player called Ellibereth: which alignment does Cinnamon use it more as?

And btw that's something you should take seriously because reading through EP gives me a chance to look over some of your stuff and I'm kinda coming to a scumread on you

These are not the posts of someone to whom EP is known to be Town

[Pine]

Hmmmmm that’s a good point

UNVOTE:

Waiting for EP fullclaim

[Pine]

Oh fucking nonsense.

Two unrestricted loyal Neighborizers is unbalanced. Even taking into account odd/even night, that’s way too much investigative power.

Loyal Neighborizers essentially create Masonries. If they were 1-shot I’d buy it, but no restrictions? If Tim we’re alive we’d have five ICs, six by N4.

Fucking no.

Mafia disloyal Neighborizer, final answer. It’s the ONLY way this is balanced

[Pine]

Also, questioning your claim isn’t “discrediting,” gtfo with that shit. That’s called being sensibly suspicious.

[Pine]

Making the Neighborizers odd/even does not solve the balance problem. You still have two effective Masonizers balanced only by a 2-shot rolecop. I know, we haven’t see the other scum flip, but I don’t think a setup with two robust scum PRs passes review.

There is also a flavor component. Having a Magma Admin and two Goons makes sense, two named roles and one goon does not

EP, claim your flavor in your next post

[Pine]

VOTE: EP

Scum Neighborizer

I know, I just saw the flaw in my logic w/r/t two scum PRs, but it’s the only plausible solution to my eyes, barring them both being scum together. Maybe it’s Leader Maxie, Admin whatshername, and a Goon

[Pine]

Scum would need a lot of power to balance that, and there’s been no evidence that reviewers are inclined in that direction lately.

[Pine]

Aqua is good in Ruby and vice versa. They’re both bad and competing in Emerald

There’s no evidence that Aqua is involved afaik

[Pine]

Leaving him accomplishes nothing, I think? He recruits someone N4, and we still don’t know if he’s loyal or not

More insidious, if we let him go, mislynch me, he claims to have failed to recruit someone N4. That’s an alleged guilty in LYLO. Way easy to get a quick scum win

[Pine]

If I go mod spec, I'd say it's one admin with two-shot rolecop and two grunts for scum.

That was my thought too. I’d say odd loyal Neighborizer + unrestricted BG vs 2-shot RC is balanced

Honestly the fake Mason gambit is kind of the simplest solution here

[Pine]

I mean why would they wait to claim if this were real? GEmerald’s skepticism of EP post-recruitment and the lack of an earlier claim doesn’t smell right

[Pine]

If EP is scum, do you think he would've pulled that claim by himself?

If not, who most likely would've?

It’s not a hard fakeclaim. We’d already seen a Loyal Neighborizer this game

PE: Loyal Neighborizers aren’t semi-cops, they’re closer to Masonizers. They get a straight into or guilty, then a hood with their target. The loyal modifier is nuts

The role is way more powerful than you give it credit for. I could see the original setup being one LN and a BG, and Micc getting a suggestion to hobble it with odd-night.

Having two just makes the power more durable. With two, scum have two separate powerful investigatives to pin down. At the very least, the Rolecop wouldn’t have been limited

[Pine]

Yes...it’s outright disbelief. I don’t think you are what you claim

[Pine]

Is that where Gamma Emerald comes from?

[Pine]

Postgame

I’d rather you not distract from the important work we’re doing here

[Pine]

I pointed out your interactions post SOD immediately, but spotted more relevant counterexamples rather than what fits your narrative.

Cherry picking to retroactively support your story is easy. Not making errors in the first place is hard.

[Pine]

Your refutation amounts to “nuh-uh”

You expressed doubt and suspicion of EP

after

he was allegedly Town to you

[Pine]

comeon pine. that gamma read on ep sounds like he's trying to not suddenly show an unnatural and sudden EP town read.

No, it doesn’t

[Pine]

I die secure in the knowledge that this game is a lock. Everything else is mere formality.

For Team Magma!

[Pine]

I killed him because he was easily the most dynamic and influential of you. When in doubt, kill the leader.

[Pine]

I made my balance rant here and elsewhere, but I hold no grudges. This was a great game, and I have no regrets.

Well played all

[Pine]

I made my balance rant here and elsewhere, but I hold no grudges. This was a great game, and I have no regrets.

Well played all

Except Creature, screw that guy. Just awful.



(Srsly tho you leveled up a bunch over the last year)

[Pine]

Sorry RC. You’re always high on my default kill list because you have a really strong tendency to completely screw any attempt at subtly controlling the conversation. You’re a threat regardless of your reads simply because I can’t out-alpha you.

[Pine]

'sok.

I felt bad mislynching you right after LLD mislynched you so we can call this even.

K

[Pine]

Krazy stop making likeable alts for fucks sake

Disagree

That said...what the ever-loving fuck were you doing with all of those sheepy vote hops? I’d have nailed your ass to the wall if you hadn’t been confirmed Town

Also, that big catchup that practically everyone Townread me for...I wrote that like, a week after daystart. Right before I posted it.

The second one I really did fall asleep at my desk for though. A summer camp schedule is grueling.

[Pine]

Reviewer here

How did the game turn out? Was it too townsided?

Three Town investigatives and a protective vs a 2-shot rolecop

A bit

[Pine]

1-shot the neighborizers and cut the tracker