Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[ItalianoVD]

Hello everyone!



VOTE: RLotus

[ItalianoVD]

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

State Farm jingle?

[ItalianoVD]

normally by this point I'd have a pretty solid read list but I only know three of your so that ain't gonna happen this time

You'd typically have a solid reads list by page 2?

yep, I have good gut reads

I’m a believer. Found me and my scum buddies on day one in Mini theme 2162. Still don’t know how you did that. It was great!

[ItalianoVD]

Hey i found u as scum d1 too in chosen maf 799

Oh yeah, which one were you? I had a lot of people on that quick wagon, lol.

Had elements played with you or your scum buddies before that game?

I don’t know about my partners, but he never played with me.

[ItalianoVD]

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

I’d say so. That was actually a funny/fun game. Players don’t expect to get wagoned/hammered that quick within RVS and I actually lol’d when it happened.

[ItalianoVD]

How often do you get yeeted D1 Italiano?

On this site, just that one time. My entire wolfgame career maybe twice. Why? You tryna see if I’ll be a good mislynch/nightkill?

[ItalianoVD]

So VP I’m not sure what you got or were trying to get out of the questions you asked me, but even if 58 is joking, I’m not taking a chance.

VOTE: VP Baltar

[ItalianoVD]

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

nah

I’d say so.

Care to elaborate what you’re thinking here?

[ItalianoVD]

however on the other hand your questions also feel a bit like filler that doesn't really bring too much on the table, but make you look engaged.

Uh oh... Mindmeld?

[ItalianoVD]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Uh uh. That’s not directly correlated. To me, I’m a bad scum player because I don’t like being scum and have a hard time lying and generally get caught in some way because of it.

[ItalianoVD]

Turns out Italiano maybe just had a bad game rather than it saying anything about elements.

They had those reads on page 1 that game, before anything even started.

[ItalianoVD]

I dislike Testarossa's post about VP. She comes out looking like she is trying extra hard, putting a lot of thought into the game, maybe an asset to town, but it's far too early in my opinion for any of those points against VP to have come from a genuine ping.

Okay, so are you townleaning VP?

However, I dislike Italiano's subsequent vote even more;

it feels opportunistic in its timing

, and the reason given ("not taking a chance" on whether or not "you caught me" is a joke) is terrible, as if he didn't want to admit he was piggybacking on Testa's post. I think I will keep my Harumi vote for now, but these two are both on my radar.

I posted 72 irt to my interaction with VP. Then I went and skimmed back over the page which is why I mentioned 73 and 74 after the fact.

Now I don’t have read on Tessaract yet. Mindmelding doesn’t exactly mean anything alignment wise, but I wanted to point it out to see how they responded to it.

[ItalianoVD]

Turns out Italiano maybe just had a bad game rather than it saying anything about elements.

They had those reads on page 1 that game, before anything even started.

Unless you're saying elements had psychic powers, something clearly pinged them

Well it sure felt like it. I can’t speak for what they actually and I doubt they’ll go into it, but I posted a couple of RVS style posts and neither of my partners had posted yet. I felt like he had the inside scoop. I did think it was awesome though.

Have you played with Duchess before?

Nah, can’t say that I have. I’m not sure where to place them yet, but if I had to say, their posts and takes have seemed townie.

[ItalianoVD]

Uh, I just isolated ItalianoVD and despite being relatively active they made like two substantial posts. For lack of any clearly better options, I'm going to VOTE: ItalianoVDVOTE: for now.

Okay. So we’re those substantial posts enough to not vote me and why not just discuss them? Probe me, try to find out what I’m thinking.

[ItalianoVD]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Where did you get that? I'm not sure I like or understand your line of questioning.

Where did I get that:

Did you read VD's post that I quoted?


Not sure you like or understand the line of questioning:

Neat. What goal did you have in trying to fence-sit (don't understand & "not sure" if like) undermine a line of questioning that just started?

Oh wow, I missed this. I actually didn't mind the questioning. I didn't think it was that big a deal. Note of a potential Duchess pocket.

[ItalianoVD]

So VP I’m not sure what you got or were trying to get out of the questions you asked me, but even if 58 is joking, I’m not taking a chance.

VOTE: VP Baltar

I dislike Testarossa's post about VP. She comes out looking like she is trying extra hard, putting a lot of thought into the game, maybe an asset to town, but it's far too early in my opinion for any of those points against VP to have come from a genuine ping.

Okay, so are you townleaning VP?

However, I dislike Italiano's subsequent vote even more;

it feels opportunistic in its timing

, and the reason given ("not taking a chance" on whether or not "you caught me" is a joke) is terrible, as if he didn't want to admit he was piggybacking on Testa's post. I think I will keep my Harumi vote for now, but these two are both on my radar.

I posted 72 irt to my interaction with VP. Then I went and skimmed back over the page which is why I mentioned 73 and 74 after the fact.

Now I don’t have read on Tessaract yet. Mindmelding doesn’t exactly mean anything alignment wise, but I wanted to point it out to see how they responded to it.

These are the two posts, not counting the one you just made.

I don't see anything particularly scummy about these but there's a high noise-to-signal ratio right now. I think the best way to resolve this issue is to make this ratio smaller.

I mean is it really that uncommon that on Day 1 within 5 pages that this won't be the case with the majority of players?

[ItalianoVD]

but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

That was a joke I mentioned to RTP, wasn't anything serious.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

@Duchess: I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning. Your defense of me pings me more than anything especially this early in the game. And it all seems weird given that I was a FoS for you as posted in 90

VOTE: Duchess

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

And just to clarify, my Baltar vote was a reaction test vote, it wasn't really my solidified vote. That there wasn't more reaction to it, ehh I don't know how to feel about it just yet.

[ItalianoVD]

theres a reason i think pearl fey is town but i wanna wait to reveal it to see if that wagon builds cuz i wanna see game state before i out it cuz i think its relatively strong of a reason to townread them.

I'm sorry, who is pearl fey?

[ItalianoVD]

Reaction from me or from other players?

Other players.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano. Please point to exactly where I have defended you.

Post 98 could be viewed as you trying to defend me fmpov or at the very least interfering with a player trying to sort a slot, which is just as bad. The same can be said for 138 since it piggybacked from 98. Then 141, then in 143 you said

“Italiano himself later explained there is no correlation in post 108

which to me read like you were defending me again, using my posts to help your argument. You mentioned me again in 166, again to help solidify your argument. Then again in 167 to justify your push onto Green. For someone not defending someone it sure seems like you are.

I'm surprised that even from your point of view

you are clinging to GC's false characterization of my push as a defense.

Why would you be surprised at someone else’s point of view? The (bolded) here is just wrong and not at all what I’m doing.

Your vantage point should make it abundantly clear that I have done absolutely nothing to defend your words or justify your actions.

See above.

So I'm curious about precisely where you are getting the feeling that I am stepping up to bat for you rather than attacking a scumread.

See above.

This early in the game, I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, except for scum.

I don’t know, you seemed pretty confident in your read, you even said so at the end of this post.

So if X looks to be setting up a scumpush against Y, I don't think for a damn second about what my read of Y is, because I have no reason to be so sure of anything that I would let those first impressions and assumptions of Y dictate my assessment of situation X.

My question is if I was a FoS, why would you be against a scum push onto me. Green would have been bussing me from your perspective, so what would it matter? For me it seems like you would’ve only done what you did if I was a townlean, otherwise you would have called out the theatre, (which would’ve been weak), but at least it’d be consistent.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

Can you elaborate on how exactly it makes you uncomfortable and why?
Why is it either theatre or town vs town?

I’ve explained why it makes me feel uncomfortable both in 169 and this post. And the thought crossed my mind that it was theatre because I didn’t feel like it was a real argument and had no real footing, but then I thought that maybe the communication is just that bad between you too, either way I wanted both of you to stop talking about it. And since it involved me I had the audacity to say so.

I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning.

So what? I'm not pushing GC for your benefit and I don't need your blessings or permission.

Well as I said since it involves me so I have the right to nip it in the bud.

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

This is a very strange question. I'm pushing a scumread, which is what you do in the game of mafia. I'll be either right or wrong in the end, but for now I'm quite confident.

Im asking under the mindset that you are defending me and I’m saying you’re push is not a good one because it’s being pushed under a false pretense.

[ItalianoVD]

And there goes the counterwagon.

[ItalianoVD]

Duly noted.

[ItalianoVD]

IIRC, Datisi, didn’t you start the wagon on Duchess? Why are you jumping off the wagon now? There was no indication (at least from your interaction with them) that you were townleaning/null them or null/scumreading me?

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano whats ur read on ppl piling onto u r,?

Datisi? 242. Lotus? Not sure.

[ItalianoVD]

i was the first vote on duchess, yes. i'm jumping off because i saw something else that i want to chase for now. i am not townreading them. and my scumping on you stems p much solely from your last wallpost.

So you disagree with it? Don't like the wording, etc.?

mind telling me about that counterwagon comment? i see you're "not sure" on lotus. think i'm scum?

What's there to say? You know what a counterwagon is. And yeah, you could be. My not sure on Lotus is because he doesn't have as much content and doesn't have many interactions, but he could very well be scum as well.

[ItalianoVD]

Let me take a chill pill for a minute. I read your 306 Duchess. I’ll respond it to it later. Same with you @Datisi wrt 272

UNVOTE: Duchess

[ItalianoVD]

@Duchess: I’m not gonna do another wall post because frankly I don’t like doing them, so I don’t know why I did it. I intertwined myself into something I shouldn’t have. 306 opened my eyes a bit. There were some good points that made me think. I had to take a step back and kinda chill. I was too invested and emotional and that’s not optimal town play imo.

@Datisi: I mentioned the counterwagon post because at the time I thought Duchess was scum, so when you and Lotus quickly jumped onto me I figured I was the counterwagon to one of you being scum and partners with Duchess. I’m in a different headspace now than I was then.

[ItalianoVD]

Let me take a chill pill for a minute. I read your 306 Duchess. I’ll respond it to it later. Same with you @Datisi wrt 272

UNVOTE: Duchess

What if Italiano really is just scum here?

I’m not though.

[ItalianoVD]

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

Let me read back over the game tomorrow and I’ll let you know.

[ItalianoVD]

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

I’ve reread the game

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

Everyone else is pretty null

So what I did irt to the Green/Duchess interaction is I read both sides as different alignments and Duchess was the most likely town between the two. In a t/s connection I couldn’t see Duchess as scum and Green as town. It could be a t/t connection, but after rereading the interaction multiple times, I feel like Duchess was more pure than Green was, so would town . It also isn’t that likely it’s a s/s bus connection on Day 1, so...

VOTE: Green Crayons

Although I’d be okay with anyone within my limpool.

[ItalianoVD]

I thought I was a reaction test for you, Italiano? I'm def scum now?

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool.

Why do you think tvs is more likely than tvt? Does your read of GC go beyond the relation between him and Duchess?

Tone. No.

[ItalianoVD]

Why is this uncomfortable to you? I think this happens relatively often in games, and this reads like an unnatural thought.

Here’s the sequence of events. Hopefully it’ll give everyone an idea of what was going on in my head at the time so I won’t have to explain it in depth again.

-Baltar asks about Elements Day 1 reads
-Other people chime in about it
-I say his reads are good and talk about the game we played where I was scum and he was town and how he found me Day 1, etc.
-Then RTP mentions another game where I was scum and how they found me Day 1.
-Then Green asks “so what I’m hearing is VD is bad at scum?”
-RTP says “no he got lolhammered in RVS, but his partner solo’d to victory.”
-I respond to Green by saying “yeah I’d say I’m bad at scum. No one expects to be quickhammered in RVS...”
-He then surmises that I’m saying I’m bad at scum because I got eliminated in RVS.
-So then I clarify and say “no, the two don’t correlate. I’m bad at scum because of ..., etc.”
-Duchess then says they don’t like the line of questioning that Green is using.
-They start going back and forth and then it escalates. I felt I was in the middle of it and the spat was happening because of me.

What I should of done is just removed myself from the equation and let them sort each other out. I’m sure I was keeping the fire hot by staying involved.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool.

Why am I in your limpool if I'm not scum?

Already answered.

[ItalianoVD]

So I'm guessing you think the whole thing was overblown, and your reads on Duchess/Green Crayon are mostly unaffected? Why do you think they continued to 1v1, or do you have little read on that.

Yes. Also my thoughts about it were incorrect, it had nothing to do with me and they were gonna go at it regardless.

[ItalianoVD]

Where? Am I missing something?

Aww my bad you’re right. I meant to post this (bolded) in 435. This is what I had in my notes, just for got to include it in the original post. That’s why I thought I answered it.

I thought I was a reaction test for you, Italiano? I'm def scum now?

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool. It just means that I’m more comfortable eliminating within my limpool than the players in the other categories.

[ItalianoVD]

If you read his ISO carefully, Italiano has been going out of his way to not directly call anyone scum this entire game.

Okay and?

[ItalianoVD]

I have my reads the way I do because I do, just like everyone else has their reads.

Something just seems a bit off about you Baltar, I can’t pinpoint it. Interactions and posts, etc. I can say the same thing about Lotus and Lunar. Although Midwaybear has seemed pretty townie so far.

[ItalianoVD]

If you read his ISO carefully, Italiano has been going out of his way to not directly call anyone scum this entire game.

Okay and?

My votes speak for me.

[ItalianoVD]

Re: 451 & 452
Well, you know, it might be better to vote me out then cause it's apparent I'm not gonna be of help to the town. I've been lazy man. All that stuff I do as town, I just didn't/don't feel like doing it this game, especially on Day 1. I don't know why, I just don't. Slots have been pinging me, but I just don't really feel like going in depth with it, hoping that gutreads would be enough. I know that's bad and not helpful, however, information can still be gleaned from my flip.

Another thing is I feel like everything I do and say is getting scumread and everything I answer is not good enough , and it feels like I'm just digging my grave deeper and deeper the more I post and interact. It's part of the game so it's cool, but it's also exhausting. If/when I do get to E1, I definitely won't hammer. I'm not gonna cutoff the discussion like that. And I'm not scum, I'm just bad townie this game.

[ItalianoVD]

After being away from this game I gotta say it’s a little awkward coming back in Just to be clear though, I meant every word I wrote in my last post.

However I want to get back in the game and try to figure things out. Whether I’m scumread or not is not important anymore because I will be an asset to the town and my towniness will eventually shine through. Now anyone can ask me anything or they don’t have to.

[ItalianoVD]

I’d like to break down 415, but it’s late and I’ll do it tomorrow?

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, can you respond specifically to this contradiction Lotus has highlighted around your own views of your scum ability?

Uhh, I guess it’s an oxymoron. If someone asks me if I’m good at scum as partners (like RTP highlighted) I will say yes so they don’t have to worry about me being a liability. And all that means is I know how to play wolf/scum and have a lot of experience at it. But if someone asks if I’m bad at scum, I’m gonna say yes because of the reasons I’ve already stated. I know my history and myself better than anyone. I genuinely do have a hard time lying and manipulating and when I pull that red pm I’m always disappointed. I enjoy being villager 100x more than being wolf/scum. But you also have to take into account for mood, what’s going on in rl, time of day, etc. Just because I may be excited as scum or bored and uninterested as town doesn’t change my base feelings of both alignments. I hate being scum and love being town. That’s it.

My comment to you is you have been mainly highlighting my reactions as the reasons I’m scum to you, but reactions are nai. Can’t always go by reactions. Not always, but generally scum are trying to direct the game into a specific gamestate or onto specific people. Who has been directing? That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I’m not scum and you’ll eventually see this or you already know. Sooner or later this town will know my true intentions.

[ItalianoVD]

I def want to hear from Italiano and may switch my vote there soon ish.

Why do you wanna hear from me if you’re mind is already made up.

[ItalianoVD]

In 415 I mentioned everyone else is null... here’s my feelings on those slots.

Datisi

- Unreadable, but something feels odd. The tone of your posts feel almost like you’re thumbing your nose at us. Like you know something and are toying with us. But maybe that’s just your play style. Now a few of the players have played with you and the atmosphere around you is pretty split. I’ve never played with you so I placed you here based on what those people have said.

Dunnstral

- Is an unreadable players since you play the same as both alignments, which is why I have you as null. All I know is your town games.

Harumi

- As you know I’m currently playing two games with you. This one and the another one and I can’t read you, which is why I have you at null. Your play could come from both town and scum.

Tessa

- You’ve only posted several times and I’d say your posts weren’t bad, but not enough to get a real read on you. It’s why I placed you here.

Elements

- I literally don’t have a read for you. You may be like Dunn and play similar regardless of alignment, but I only have a town game for you and this could be that, but not having a scum game to compare, I can only place you here.

[ItalianoVD]

If these people are scum then bravo, but the tones of RTP and Andres have felt the most like town for me. Pocket or not, whatever, I don’t care, I’ve felt the best when reading your posts.

I feel like Duchess is actually trying to solve the game. Like it doesn’t feel like you’re informed and just doing stuff, but uninformed and trying to figure things out.

Sorry midway as much as you’ve looked like town, you’ve replaced into a slot that I feel/felt is scum. Lunar was playing very different than the two games I played with him. As a townie, even on day one, way more involved and none of those goofy one liners and short answers.

[ItalianoVD]

And don’t question my feelings and guts because that’s all everyone has been doing. No one has a strong case so don’t @ me. You know who you are.

[ItalianoVD]

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

You don’t seem to be giving me this same benefit of the doubt, but you want people to just do this for you. Hmm

[ItalianoVD]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

would like to hear from VD some delicious ~self-meta~ about whether he agrees this is how he plays when scumread as town

When I'm scumread for something that is legitimate or something that I myself would scumread I just play on and eventually that person or people should see my towniness come through but when I get scumread for something stupid or faulty I admit it throws me off and my goal is to disprove that nonsense, which in effect makes me look scummier ~ala Mini Number 2195.

[ItalianoVD]

So am i correct that you haven't explained why the other three are in your elimination pool, or did I miss that?

I explained why it's Lunar/midway in 577. The other two I haven't played with but Lotus has a feel like Datisi. Baltar interaction with everyone hasn't necessarily been scummy, even his interaction with me, so as I'm writing this perhaps I could move him down him in the nullrange. But I'm wondering why it feels like their mind is made up with me. Like no matter what happens I'll be where they vote today, I don't know maybe it's just me.

[ItalianoVD]

So what I'm reading is that defeatism isn't a VD-town play to being suspected, or is that part of "just play(ing) on"?

Well not necessarily. I mean I've given up before. It usually happens when every attempt to give my thoughts and explain the reasons I've done X or Y have fallen on deaf ears. At that point I'm frustrated and it's futile. That's what I've felt like in this game. But sure read what you want from that, I don't care really.

[ItalianoVD]

To be clear being suspected or even pressured is nothing to me, I take it in stride, but these are different circumstances and in different situations I will obviously react differently.

[ItalianoVD]

Here's a post where I am very clearly torn about you:

I hate that my gut says Italiano is town and every word out of his mouth is scummy.

I still want to yeet Dunn.

I really hate that you keep saying "VP has already made his mind up" because it reaches a point where if I ever *do* decide to vote you, you can easily be like: "SEE TOLD YOU VP BIASED AF"

My bad, I did miss that.

[ItalianoVD]

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

You don’t seem to be giving me this same benefit of the doubt, but you want people to just do this for you. Hmm

lol excuse me what? what kinda benefit of the doubt am i supposed to be giving you here?

@italiano, i'd like this answered.

I've pretty much said and done the same thing you said you do in 565. It's almost word for word my sentiments, thoughts, and reactions to the whole Duchess/Green thing. And multiple people scumread it. You voted me for it. I was writing out my thoughts and the reasons I said what I said and why I was reacting to certain things the way I did, etc. and people were like "Nah bruh, that's scummy and I'm voting for you, so when I saw your comment, it made me do a double take, which is why I commented on it.

The issue with the comment is not that you scumread me for my comment, but that you were using that as a reason to pushback against Andres' suspicion on you. In any other scenario I would have agreed with it/you 100%.

[ItalianoVD]

I def want to hear from Italiano and may switch my vote there soon ish.

Why do you wanna hear from me if you’re mind is already made up.

Where did I say my mind was made up? I explicitly said the opposite of that...

The tone of the wording here makes it seem like hearing from me is just a formality. The "and may switch my vote there soon ish" is the part that makes it seem this way. If that's not what you mean my bad, but that's what it sounded like to me.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm willing to look like a fool if I'm wrong.

So you gonna change your name or your profile pic?

[ItalianoVD]

[ItalianoVD]

What’s stopping you from eliminating me? If you’re that confident push it through.

[ItalianoVD]

Don't imply OGI please. You know that's against the rules.

Seems I’m breaking rules every game I play. What is OGI?

[ItalianoVD]

I know you only have one vote, but if you’re confident I’ll flip red as then push it through.

[ItalianoVD]

Unless you agree to a death pact.

[ItalianoVD]

I didn’t do that, did I? Lotus said he’s willing to look like a fool and I offered that he change his name or profile pic into something foolish. If that’s what that was then my bad, wasn’t my intention.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm taking note that Italiano seems to be somewhat confrontational this game.

I am confrontational this game because I’ve been annoyed this game.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm taking note that Italiano seems to be somewhat confrontational this game.

I am confrontational this game because I’ve been annoyed this game.

whats been annoying you?

1. The fact that I can’t figure out this game. It’s stalled and I don’t know why.
2. I know there is at least one scum on me at the present and I can’t figure it out.
3. Trying to figure it out seems moot because my credibility is shot currently.
4. Being scumread for being transparent.
5. The fact that this game is dead, oh did I mention that already.

This is why I’m annoyed. It ain’t just one thing. And I ain’t replacing out; that’s not what I do, I wouldn’t want anyone coming into this slot anyway, wouldn’t be fair to them. Gotta try my best to clean it up.

[ItalianoVD]

598 - It seems like RLotus and I view Italiano's play this game differently. I actually do see some "bite", but I don't know if it is necessarily town indicative for him (the promises to obvtown, calling out people, ...).

When have I ever had bite, to this level, as scum? Come on man.

[ItalianoVD]

thanks. it was an important question - i wanted to see if you had any particular reasoning which does help me sort you.
also my apologies I was distracted as I am usually so.

Yeah those were the main reasons. And I didn't mean to seem short with you.

@RTP I think there’s Scum pushing Italiano. I don’t think this frustration/defeatism is coming from Scum, but honestly, I have revealed this to be a bit of a weak spot for me. I obviously think midwaybear’s seeming POE for today is rubbish, and I need you to look a bit closer there. I also don’t like Datisi’s 618 (seems like Scum sidelining a player that is maybe an easy push here). However, this whole thing is a bit binary. If they’re right about Italiano, then I expect {Green Crayons / Datisi / midwaybear} and to a lesser extent VPB to come out looking stronger for it. If Italiano is Town, then it’ll make it more obvious that we’re in part being led astray by Scum.

There's really nothing else to say here. These are my sentiments exactly.

Is there a reason you're voting GC over RL?
You're saying you don't know which person on your wagon is scum, but have only one of them in your limpool and townlean another one, why not try to figure out which one is scum?

If Lotus was scum, he knows I'm town and while scum can/do tunnel townies I don't know how common it is, so while I'd like to think he's scum, I don't know how likely it is. I am gonna look at that.

I feel better here right now.

VOTE: midwaybear

[ItalianoVD]

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

The fact that it doesn't at least somewhat frustrate you or allow you to understand why someone else would be frustrated by it is telling to me.

2. where are you trying to figure it out? like this seems more like complaining about being voted than actually, idk... genuinely sorting anyone? like you have 3/4 people that are pushing you as confusing/null/weird.

Have you read my iso? I've pretty much given all my thoughts up to this point.

also i feel like you're trying your best to ignore me while throwing sideways shade at me and i Do Not Like It

I am not ignoring you, but your takes to my responses are one of the things that have been annoying me. So I try to leave and then come back so I can give you a better less annoyed response, unless you want the unfiltered versions.

[ItalianoVD]

Stalling is not useful for the game state and sometimes tstbs is actually just flail scum.

I'm not the greatest at scum, but come on man, I don't flail as scum. And tstbs is

At the very least, a flip of Italiano gives info and progression.

What?! No it doesn't, because you can try to actually find scum to flip instead. This is careless fmpov

Battle Mage replaces Testarossa

Nice! Hopefully you're town buddy. Come help me out.

I'm taking note that Italiano seems to be somewhat confrontational this game.

I am confrontational this game because I’ve been annoyed this game.

whats been annoying you?

1. The fact that I can’t figure out this game. It’s stalled and I don’t know why.
2. I know there is at least one scum on me at the present and I can’t figure it out.
3. Trying to figure it out seems moot because my credibility is shot currently.
4. Being scumread for being transparent.
5. The fact that this game is dead, oh did I mention that already.

This is why I’m annoyed. It ain’t just one thing. And I ain’t replacing out; that’s not what I do, I wouldn’t want anyone coming into this slot anyway, wouldn’t be fair to them. Gotta try my best to clean it up.

i got u fam

Pssh, let's go.

[ItalianoVD]

Re: 451 & 452
Well, you know, it might be better to vote me out then cause it's apparent I'm not gonna be of help to the town. I've been lazy man. All that stuff I do as town, I just didn't/don't feel like doing it this game, especially on Day 1. I don't know why, I just don't. Slots have been pinging me, but I just don't really feel like going in depth with it, hoping that gutreads would be enough. I know that's bad and not helpful, however, information can still be gleaned from my flip.

Another thing is I feel like everything I do and say is getting scumread and everything I answer is not good enough , and it feels like I'm just digging my grave deeper and deeper the more I post and interact. It's part of the game so it's cool, but it's also exhausting. If/when I do get to E1, I definitely won't hammer. I'm not gonna cutoff the discussion like that. And I'm not scum, I'm just bad townie this game.

definitely feel the emotion here. happy to assume Italiano is locktown - I think Italiano-scum has more self-respect than to run this as a gambit.

Where this is one time your assumptions won't get you killed.

[ItalianoVD]

what's the case on Dunn?

he bein' kinda lurky and not towny

my townreads be votin' there

i'm a sheep

the game has kinda not done much in the past 2-3 days

Dunn is always lurky. I think I've played lots of games with him but he normally stays pretty quiet so hard to remember. We're 27 pages deep though, so let's make something happen.

VOTE: Dunnstral

How do you sort it then? Just vca?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm curious to how this translates to GC/Elements scum. The reads on them seemed cool, why the scumreads?

Spoiler:

Harumi Ayasato
-Assertive behavior early on, puts themselves on the spot with a push
-Attacks multiple people, when voting Italiano has a clear reasoning for it
-reads list in 245 well written
-Has specific reasoning for their pushes when prodded for it
-Overall feels uninformed

Green Crayons
-69 post count at the time of making this(nice) (also joke)
-points out the contradiction wrt harumi’s read, leans town for me
-defensive about being misrepped
-is trying to work with others

Votato(yuck)/midwaybear(<3)
-lack of care for how they are perceived
-posing good questions to others that clearly lead to conclusions
-337 feels very towny with the contrarian thing
-their read on andres looks fluid, when they locktown them and are not afraid to change that after a reread
-on replace in, quickly gives thoughts
-generally towny vibe, feels like town midway(gut)


Reformed toxic user
-thats me
-im town as fuck
-if you disagree you’re wrong as fuck
-literally never wrong
-not toxic btw


Testarossa/Battle Mage
-gun to head i’d say town? But theres not enough content to say i would use as reasons to townread them

Andres
-is taking stances, solid ones
-good analysis on other players, wiling to clear them from PoE
-seems to have naturally figured out who I was - something i think that would be more likely if they were in a scum pt with 2 others, as 1 other person here knew who i was
-im tending to agree with their pushes/points which is town-indicative for me
-is willing to townread me despite my consistent scumread on them.

Elements
-is honest about them not outting an early reads list with good reasoning
-reads lists later on has good looking reasoning
-is pushing people to make reads on them, which is attention grabbing

ItalianoVD
-is open about their scumgame early on
-very relaxed energy!
-during player v player fight(duchess/GC), goes after the person whos townreading them
-makes statements that can be backed up
-is willing to reeval rather than deathtunnel duchess
-outs their thought process, and admits fault in being in the middle of the fight and helping instigate it
-overall the way they are reaching conclusions feel organic and honest
-when asked why they are annoyed, they had a good list in response


sup sorry

i have to get ready for work

i have been getting distracted working on this constantly - im releasing what i have so far because i already have a conclusion where I have 2 scumreads based on my readings.

VOTE: Green Crayons

I think italiano is town here now.

andres is town should this flip scum every time.

harumi i feel is not as towny as i initially thought - i still think scum!GC implies town!harumi

also likley partner for GC = Elements.

i wanted to post this now so we can get some reactions based on this. I'm fairly confident on thsi at this point.

Wanna get people's thoughts. I think last scum I'll find in the people ive yet to go through.

[ItalianoVD]

Like I'm not questioning it, it's just that what you said about them didn't match with the vote.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano is scum

You're wrong dude. Read my iso with me as a townread. If you come back and still scumread then fair enough, but I don't fell like you've done that.

[ItalianoVD]

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

This is garbage. Why didn't you say anything?

[ItalianoVD]

It doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do this as town.

The fact is it doesn't make sense for me to do this as scum and if you were being honest you'd know this.

Like, why doesn't he say yeah you're right about my meta but I'm town.

My gosh, I've said I'm town so many times and in different ways and you still scumread me, so this is just nonsense.

He's trying to explain away why he hasn't been solvy and lacks his usual town fire, while also trying to survive with AtE (which I've noticed you tend to be susceptible to).

Well I'm usually in way more active games that allow me utilize my usual town fire. I feel like I'm repeating myself, which I have been.

No backbone that I normally see from him when he's town. He's just rolling over and dying.

I've already explained multiple times why I've felt the way I felt but you refuse to accept it so I'm done trying.

[ItalianoVD]

Defeatism isn't towny. Yall are letting him off way too easily. At most that post should be NAI.

There's context here man. Context! I just feel like you aren't playing this game honestly. I've said you are probably just townie tunneling townie, but I'm not so sure anymore.

[ItalianoVD]

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

You're trolling at this point right?

[ItalianoVD]

RLotus - a quicker ask - who is scum besides Italiano?

I've really got no clue past Italiano

And you don't think that's a problem?

[ItalianoVD]

There’s a couple of things that are bugging me:

ok let me try something
VOTE: italiano

What were you trying to do here?

I don’t like 696. Why do you have favorable reads for players you scumread.

I went back and read 659 again as I didn’t catch it the first time. Maybe I’m townleaning the wrong slot.

Also what was your goal in 541? Is this why you voted me? If so, doesn’t make sense for you to be townreading me now.

[ItalianoVD]

that post in 696 was an exercise in finding reasons to townread ppl.

So why did you scumread people after doing it?

why shouldn't I townread you? are you not town?

Your progression feels weird. You townread me by gut which is fine, then I assume you scumread me when you voted for me, and now you townread me for seemingly something you scumread me for?? I have no clue really because you never said why you voted me.

And you didn’t answer all my questions.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m catching up and I’m more than likely gonna be updating my reads.

@Datisi, I still don’t know what to think of you. Baltar is somewhat clearing you, but I’m not gonna place you both at town just yet. For all I know you’re partners. Just thinking about it most likely not, if anything it’s a t/s connection I don’t know so you stay null. You scumreading me for your reasons are goofy to me, but I’m not gonna change your mind and I’m not gonna try to, I’m gonna move on. Like I told Lotus run my iso back, which gives all my thoughts and reads. If you run it back and still think I’m scum then do your thing.

VOTE: RLotus

[ItalianoVD]

Something doesn’t seem right from RTP from my last interaction.

[ItalianoVD]

Anyway I’ll be on page 39

[ItalianoVD]

Because they didn't come out as towny enough??

bruh?

why are u asking me to restate shit ive already gone over.

Frankly none of it makes sense.

[ItalianoVD]

i already stated i had voted u for the contradiction from our scum pt in 799 and what u said in this game

So if that was your reason for voting me what changed? Doing a reeval makes no sense since you had already been townleaning me and if the so called contradiction was the thing you voted me for that didn’t change, so it doesn’t make sense to townread me. I feel like you were just doing things to do things imo, especially that readslist.

[ItalianoVD]

page 33 is boring. why are VD and Datisi arguing? is one pushing a case on the other? Both? please advise (with something interesting).

Im crying. Datisi is scumreading. Par for the course.

[ItalianoVD]

That progression by Elements on Baltar on page 42 is very poor. Like yikes, at first I was gonna say that it was interesting how RTP was the one to catch it, but that was pretty blatant.

That kinda shot you up the list. I’m on Lotus right now cause frankly I feel better there, but that’s very ugly.

[ItalianoVD]

i am interested in
@italiano, do you have a read on me here yet? also like, any opinion/change on lotus/rtp?

This is what I was referring to when I addressed you in 1188

[ItalianoVD]

not sure where you get that i'm townreading elements, but i think on balance his play points away from scum

Sorry if you answered this already, but what did you think of their progression on Baltar from the Baltar/Duchess discussion?

[ItalianoVD]

i've got a plan
let's vote me out to prove all your speculations about me being scum wrong
VOTE: elements

I got a soft spot for this, so not the best judge for this.

[ItalianoVD]

if there somehow isn't scum in <RTP, GC, VB> mafia are having a field day

Without knowing Elements three tone and wording of this pushes him up slightly back into null.

[ItalianoVD]

Unless Elements is just scum and RTP is good or bussing their partner again.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like to point out that GC's been extremely vague about reasoning and cannot ellaborate when pushed on and starts talking in circles or just reverts to other points, or just points out shallow things

This feels very agenda’y’

[ItalianoVD]

you know im scumreading u... right?

ooh look at mx pre-flip associatives over here

have you considered that I'm town?
It's worth a try. Then you'll be right on at least one person.
But seriously, from my POV scum!GC has 0 reason to not scum me

More pings towards the townside.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like to point out that GC's been extremely vague about reasoning and cannot ellaborate when pushed on and starts talking in circles or just reverts to other points, or just points out shallow things

This feels very agenda’y’

I think this is a bit of a reach actually.

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree here.

[ItalianoVD]

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

You tried this on me and you were/are wrong there. I’m thinking you’re wrong here as well.

[ItalianoVD]

But, you keep Dunn as one of your top scum you can't get it through your head it seems.

Good point though.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I’m done. It’s late and my eyes are crossing. Will hit 47+ tomorrow.

[ItalianoVD]

yeah i did take a leap of faith when voting you to see what would happen. and? whats your point? townlean by no means means im going to stop examining your play and poke at suspicious stuff.

I don’t have a problem with that, but to me it just seems like a performance. It feels like that with a lot of your recent reads.

italiano ily but im sadly just not following what youre saying but it feels towny ur just thoughtspewing so keep it up bud

Eh

I'd like to point out that GC's been extremely vague about reasoning and cannot ellaborate when pushed on and starts talking in circles or just reverts to other points, or just points out shallow things

This feels very agenda’y’

I think this is a bit of a reach actually.

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree here.

before I go - please try to explain how you think it was agenda-y in the context, like whats my agenda. (or maybe you just think its scummy, and are using bad words?? bc idk what u mean there) are u townreading GC is that why?

That whole post read like a scummy agenda. Like you’re trying to direct the traffic. In fact your play today has felt that.

Italiano, I got the impression you were scumreading VP earlier or were suspicious of him at least. What changed for you?

I never really scumread VP like I said earlier in the game, but at the time I felt like he could possibly be scum. Ironically his interactions and posts didn’t actually feel like it. Felt like I was trying to force something that wasn’t quite there. Though I haven’t worked out how I feel about the interaction between you two yet.

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

You tried this on me and you were/are wrong there. I’m thinking you’re wrong here as well.

That's a pretty shallow reason to think I'm wrong. But you're right it wouldn't be the first time I am wrong when I am hard pushing someone.

You were/are so certain I was scum and fmpov I know you’re wrong so it’s not frivolous for me to think you’re doing it again.

[ItalianoVD]

also like, why are connecting my alignment to baltar? i get we're townreading each other, but i'm my own slot here.

Well that’s what I do when I can’t read a player. Other people’s input on slots are valuable to me.

[ItalianoVD]

is "directing traffic" scummy? yeah i like to exert control over the game state. so what?

Not in general terms, but it’s the way you’ve been directing traffic this game. Throwing things out and seeing what happens then changing when it doesn’t go where you want it, etc. It’s nai, but in the context of this game it feels scummy.

[ItalianoVD]

It’s nai, but in the context of this game it feels scummy.

Just clarify, directing traffic is nai, not jumping around.

Yeah I’m going here today.
VOTE: RTP

[ItalianoVD]

italiano, you saw how active i was in scumchat and directing stuff, you saw how i told you to pretend to omgus you. you should freaking know.

To be honest after I got eliminated from that game I rarely even checked on it. I came in a couple times to check the vote count and that was it so I have nothing in that aspect. And even if I did meta is trash and only goes so far, especially with experienced players.

italiano looks rly bad with their momentum vote onto me btw -> pulling me up to a major wagon is a scummy move to me considering the way they reached their conclusion.

Well my progression on you was fair actually. At first I townread you because you felt towny, interactions, posts, etc., then you naked voted me which pinged me a bit but wasn't that crazy, but then you posted that weird readslist and overall your play today has been strange. And then your responses to my inquiries didn't really make me feel better so now I'm comfortable voting for you. You can try to discredit it all you want but this is where I'm at and it's where I'm staying.

im like not as sure on GC anymore it might just be their posting style and theyre just omgusing me bc of a clash of personality

Yeah sure, that's what it is. You were pretty sure GC was scum earlier and even put them in your solve poe. And like I mentioned already when pushes don't work you don't push there anymore and you either backpedal like you are doing here or you move somewhere else like with myself and/or Elements.

- and the reasons ive been in so much shit this game is bc ive been fosing mostly town and scum have been content to just do nothing and let it pile on.

Let's be honest you've really placed yourself in a bad spot because of your jumping around. And if anybody is scum in your poe. And please don't come up with some narrative that I'm mad that you bussed me in 799, lol, which seems like you would here, because as I've said already I actually had fun that game but really couldn't careless about it.

[ItalianoVD]

I've been keeping up with thread off and on today. I'd like for us to be able to end this day ASAP because I think we all need a break. I feel like I've caught on to something with RTP and feel like maybe there was possibly some theatre involved, but then again maybe I'm being unreasonable. I don't really feel like it right now, but I'll look at your iso and interactions again. But it looks like a lot of people can/will compromise for midway. Midway is a slot I haven't felt good about since he replaced in. I don't know about Elements, I'ma bit torn there, I can hammer if it gets to that point. Anything to end this day, but I generally feel the best about eliminating midway.

VOTE: midwaybear

I'm off to bed. I'll holla at y'all later.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh my bad, I mixed up midway with maxwell. I think people were compromising on maxwell not midway. But come on, we keep disintegrating these wagons just to run up another one to do it again.

[ItalianoVD]

what made you not feel good about midway. how did you feel about lunar martian?

Spoiler:

Sorry midway as much as you’ve looked like town, you’ve replaced into a slot that I feel/felt is scum. Lunar was playing very different than the two games I played with him. As a townie, even on day one, way more involved and none of those goofy one liners and short answers.

[ItalianoVD]

btw i dont mean this as a "i think you're scum" kinda question - i mean it as a "hey lets dissect your thought process bc I disagree" kinda question.

Where should I be voting then? Get someone, anyone to E-1 and I'll hammer. Is that okay?

[ItalianoVD]

^That's not a troll, that's serious.

[ItalianoVD]

I don't see how lunar has been scummy - can you explain?

I did

Spoiler:

Lunar was playing very different than the two games I played with him. As a townie, even on day one, way more involved and none of those goofy one liners and short answers.

[ItalianoVD]

why do you keep spoilering your quotes?

It looks better for me. Is it messing something up for you? I'll stop if it is.

[ItalianoVD]

I have a certain confidence in reading that player - and midway has done nothing that pings me.

also i dont think thats an effective way of reading votato?? ur talking to someone whos played more games with the person in question - as they were a bypassing banned user.

What if I'm covering your blind spot. How many times have you thought you knew someone and/or how they played only to find out, "oh crap they were a wolf" I know I've experienced it on many occasion.

[ItalianoVD]

if I had to have a PoE right now: italiano, dunn, andres(something doesnt feel right here), duchess, elements(just based on them falling off and my flip on my GC read here)

if im like 0/5 literally deleting this account LOL

Well you're 0 for 1 with me so you may wanna jump on someone else.

[ItalianoVD]

@Elements @BM might as well just vote me. We can end this day and you guys can catch the scum that’s on my wagon.

[ItalianoVD]

Why those two specifically?

They were the last two to post. Andres can do it. I don't care.

[ItalianoVD]

I might want to ISO there and figure out bottom line what I think is going to happen.

You don’t have to waste your time bro. You can just vote. If you’re town you’ll figure it out on Day 2

[ItalianoVD]

I’m just going to say that I am free to use my free time however I want haha

Okay fair enough. Just figured you wanna just get the day done quicker.

[ItalianoVD]

So are you suspecting midway, max, both, or neither? What is with this whiplash.

Why are you asking a question you already have the answer to?

[ItalianoVD]

room-temperature take: italiano is hoping that the "i give up" ate makes townies defend him / reconsider

Yeah, uhh not at all. I actually just want the day to end. If the ones who really feel I’m scum are actually town then my green flip will do more than just prove them wrong, but should give some insight onto who wasn’t on me.

[ItalianoVD]

Benefits of a Dunn wagon: he has contributed nothing despite me trying to prompt interaction from him several times. He may be following the thread and just not posting. When he does post, they are mostly just prod dodge type posts. There is no guarantee he is going to suddenly become useful later in the game.

Downside: if he flips scum, there isn't a lot of info to go on.

Maybe something to look at/pursue Day 2.

[ItalianoVD]

Nope, my position is pretty much the same now as it was then, but time is short and that seems to be where people have moved.

So let’s get that vote up then yes?

[ItalianoVD]

But I don’t think those two are scum.

[ItalianoVD]

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

[ItalianoVD]

then surely you're actually thinking about who tf is the scum on your wagon. and i'm trying to get it out of him, like i'm trying to provoke him into actually giving a response.

Who I think is scum, no one else does so I’m spinning my wheels.

[ItalianoVD]

Well if we’re going tot night let me get out my final thoughts.

[ItalianoVD]

midwaybear:

Spoiler:

midwaybear has stated on a couple of occasions 640, 1362 who he’d be willing to compromise for. However he only actually subscribed to my wagon even though the people he said he’d compromise for all had wagons he could have joined.

Midway’s whole iso is him telling us who he’s

going

to vote for, but never actually voting. He even unvoted Dunn and never really pursued that slot.

Fmpov this E-2 vote is extremely opportunistic.

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

But it’s not only suspicious because it’s a vote on me. He never voted for anyone. He said he’d vote for GC, Harumi, myself, RLotus,

On another note this awkward comment in 410:

I read through Lunar's iso before I replaced and he seemed townie enough.

If you replaced into a town slot there’s no need to say this imo, there’s no need to mention it at all really, just come in and play. It’s not major, but I thought it was weird and something I don’t think a townie would go out of their way to mention.

In 1362, midway said he’d vote for Lotus or GC. but in votecount 1.09 1370 He doesn’t vote. Lotus is the leading wagon and Green Crayons is right up there as well.

Official Vote Count 1.09

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate someone.

RLotus (3): VP Baltar, Andresvmb, ItalianoVD
Green Crayons (2): Reformed Toxic Player, RLotus
Reformed Toxic Player (2): Battle Mage, Green Crayons
Elements (1): Dunnstral
ItalianoVD (1): maxwell
VP Baltar (1): Duchess

Not Voting

(3): Datisi, Elements, midwaybear[/area]

midway/lotus: scum partners??
midway/gc: scum partners??

TL;DR: didn’t vote, weird progression on me, and not living up to his word.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve already given my thoughts on RTP. Nothing much has changed there and someone I’d pursue had I survived. I’m also slightly suspicious of Datisi.

Townleaning:
Baltar
Andres
Battle Mage
Elements
Duchess

Null:
maxwell
Dunnstral
Green Crayons

Suspicious:
Datisi

Scum:
midway
Lotus
RTP

[ItalianoVD]

Aight I’m done. Make it happen max, so I can finally end this day.

[ItalianoVD]

if he had something to claim, he would have already.

Not claiming.

[ItalianoVD]

It’s been real my peeps. Appreciate all you do.

VOTE: ItalianoVD