Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Harumi Ayasato

[Green Crayons]

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

[Green Crayons]

because you're the competing bandwagon

[Green Crayons]

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

[Green Crayons]

suss on Elements but not RTP?

[Green Crayons]

Elements, do you feel like you'll be able to speed read people you know?

does Elements know you?

[Green Crayons]

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

nah

I’d say so.

[Green Crayons]

Care to elaborate what you’re thinking here?

I think it's fairly obvious what I'm thinking, tbh, if simply because I'm not thinking Big Thoughts

nah he just got meme hammered

Players don’t expect to get wagoned/hammered that quick within RVS and I actually lol’d when it happened.

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

[Green Crayons]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Uh uh. That’s not directly correlated. To me, I’m a bad scum player because I don’t like being scum and have a hard time lying and generally get caught in some way because of it.

Word.

Have you played with Duchess before?

[Green Crayons]

I think I'll have to reread the game tomorrow, I'm in two because the first game was inactive, and I'm a little out of my depth right now. Maybe a reread of this game will help me regain my focus.

Uh, I just isolated ItalianoVD and despite being relatively active they made like two substantial posts. For lack of any clearly better options, I'm going to VOTE: ItalianoVDVOTE: for now.

Did you miss or are you ignoring or did I miss a response to:

suss on Elements but not RTP?

[Green Crayons]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Where did you get that? I'm not sure I like or understand your line of questioning.

Where did I get that:

Did you read VD's post that I quoted?


Not sure you like or understand the line of questioning:

Neat. What goal did you have in trying to fence-sit (don't understand & "not sure" if like) undermine a line of questioning that just started?

[Green Crayons]

I feel no need to defend my undermining of a clear strawman.

didn't understand but now thinks it was a clear strawman

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: GC, RTP, & VD

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

nah he just got meme hammered and then partner carried all the way to 3 way and won

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

I’d say so. That was actually a funny/fun game. Players don’t expect to get wagoned/hammered that quick within RVS and I actually lol’d when it happened.

Both RTP and VD correlated their answer about whether VD is bad at being scum with why he was quick-eliminated.

I asked about that because VD's post literally strings "I'm a bad scum player" with "I was quick-eliminated in RVS" in the span of three sentences.

That you first didn't understand this, but also didn't like it, and so felt the need to attack my question before it was even answered, but now think it was clearly strawmanning (?), and also a loaded question (?), looks like you're either actively defending VD or trying to find a reason to shade me or both.

[Green Crayons]

lol

I *know* what VD said in 101, because he explained himself—including clarifying that he was not linking his quality at being scum with his quick elim. Which is a big nothing and why I dropped it. Like I dropped all any line of Qs that are nothingburgers.

That you are contorting basic Q&A logic by saying *I’m* stawmanning and asking loaded Qs when both RTP and VD’s entire response to my Q contained a y/n and then what clearly appeared an explanation for that y/n by referring to the quick-elim (rather than assuming the reference to the quick elim was a non-sequitur, which is not how normal conversation operates) is so incredibly disingenuous, that your vote-and-attack by being gently pushed on this seems AI defensive.

VOTE: duchess

[Green Crayons]

Is GC bad at baseball?

Yes. He struck out the first time he went to the plate.

So GC is bad at baseball bc he struck out the first time you went to bat?


Trying to shade me for linking the yes/no longer to the immediately following observation, that I’m twisting words, is just so scummy.

Trying to shade me for connecting the

[Green Crayons]

Yes/no answer*

Phone posting so formatting errors too. Wheee.

[Green Crayons]

Green Crayons. You are characterizing my push on you as a response to your suspicion of me, which is a complete fabrication you seem to have pulled out of thin air for the sake of your argument. My trajectory is very clearly laid out. To call me defensive is nothing but more baseless projection.

Mischaracterization.

I said you were affirmatively defending VD and separately your attack on me when I questioned your defense of VD was suspicious. I have never said that you started pushing me solely in response to my suspicion of you, which is contradicted by my first engaging you based on your fence-sitting attack on my Q to VD. You first started pushing me to defend VD, and then started attacking me when I pressed you back.

I still entirely disagree with your interpretation of VD's response. The last two sentences are not full-on non-sequiturs, but they're not a justification for the first. I see them as Italiano adding his own thoughts to RTP's previous post. I am not interested in discussing theory of conversation or hearing your analogies, and I'm troubled by your refusal to address the post in question directly.

Lies.

I haven’t refused to address any post.

To the extent you think I’ve missed some brilliant point, rather than shading me even further you could point it out rather than nebulously referring to it.

Also, love how slippery you’re being:
- Dutchess: “GC’s question is -clearly strawmanning-”
- GC: “no, here is what his response was and basic Q&A construction and the English language connects those ideas”
- Dutchess: “I don’t want to talk about that, which undermines my shading of your Q”


To cut through this back and forth about how I interpreted VD’s post differently than you: I specifically squarely asked VD a Q to clarify his response, which nullifies your entire supposed premise for why my interaction with VD is suspect. You (supposedly) have no idea what VD was going to say—for example, he could’ve said “yeah, I’m a bad scum bc I shouldn’t have let myself get quick eliminated.” Your premature jump to defend is just so suspect, and your attack-as-a-defense just underscores it.

[Green Crayons]

I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

This post is screaming TMI

[Green Crayons]

Anyone play with Datisi before?

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: datisi

how come i'm the only "null" on that list?

ok

what does maybe town mean (i.e. how is it different from town) and what's giving you those vibes

Strike you out of the ordinary that he is this preoccupied with how others perceive him?

[Green Crayons]

Okay. Short of an official meta analysis, is him asking Qs re how others are reading him consistent with his personality or behavior from whatever games you’ve played with him, either scum or town or both?

Question is open to the floor for anyone whose played with Datisi, ofc.

[Green Crayons]

Short of an official meta analysis,

Like, I feel not wanting to dig up old cases, but presumably since you raised your hand you have some sense of his personality/style of play as either scum or town or both. Curious if this is consistent.

[Green Crayons]

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

I toyed with the idea of maybe s/s, but that post I was quoting specifically feels more like s/t. Also on the aggression scale my Q to VD was so benign that I don’t think a scum would have felt compelled to preemptively attack it on behalf of another scum who hadn’t yet responded. Couple that with VD-scum turning around to vote Dutchess-scum seems unlikely though not out of the realm of reasonable strategy (this doesn’t seem like a quick elim game, in terms of attitude and no players that I know of who will insta hammer).

[Green Crayons]

Datisi as town has asked me to justify my read on him a few times. I think he does it to guage genuine intentions vs. scum pulling reads out of their butts.

Cool, thanks.

[Green Crayons]

I *am* getting all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

[Green Crayons]

Post 229 is top notch. At first with the concessions ("I do understand what you're saying here", "That's true, you haven't refused, and that's my bad for the ambiguous choice of words") I thought I was maybe off base. But considering her points, it's clear to me that that tone presents a face of reasonableness to mask the lies she puts forward about my play to justify her vote.

I'm a bit torn because nobody reads long posts, or really likes in-the-weeds back and forth. I do try to avoid them. But 229 is truly top tier BS.

(I would spoiler but some of the quotes I'm using are also using spoilers, which messes up the formatting, so APOLOGIES but your scroll finger isn't broken).

1.

I know that contradicts, which is why I called it baseless and said you were pulling this out of thin air.

No, you don't get to just completely invent what I was saying to turn it around and say "of course it contradicts, that's why you're scummy." The "it" that contradicts is YOUR accusation, and it contradicts from reality. You said that I am "characterizing {Duchess's} push on {GC} as a response to {GC's} suspicion of {Duchess}" but I responded that that accusation is wrong and contradicts the fact that I first took issue with you attacking my Q to VD--which means your push on me was not a result of me suspecting you, but because you wanted to defend VD.

What I

have

said, repeatedly now, is that you acted suspiciously for two separate reasons: first because of your preemptive defense of VD, and second because of how you reacted to my pressing you on that defense. That's not baseless, not pulled out of thin air. It's based on your actions in this very thread.

2.

I do understand what you're saying here, though, but this is the last time I will say I was not ever defending Italiano as town.

I cannot believe that Duchess has never even heard of the concept of defending someone by attacking their attacker. That is what my suspicions were of her attacking my Q to VD, which is facially obvious, but she turns it around to say I'm mischaracterizing her play because she never

directly

defended VD.

3.

I mean to say your insistence on using theory and presenting examples rather than showing me exactly what words in that post led you to interpret it the way you did.

Just rewriting history here. I literally pointed to the exact words by quoting my, VD's, and RTP's posts and then explaining how I interpreted VD's response that led to my Q asking him to clarify:

Spoiler: GC, RTP, & VD

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

nah he just got meme hammered and then partner carried all the way to 3 way and won

so what i'm hearing is that VD is bad at being scum

I’d say so. That was actually a funny/fun game. Players don’t expect to get wagoned/hammered that quick within RVS and I actually lol’d when it happened.

Both RTP and VD correlated their answer about whether VD is bad at being scum with why he was quick-eliminated.

I asked about that because VD's post literally strings "I'm a bad scum player" with "I was quick-eliminated in RVS" in the span of three sentences.

That you first didn't understand this, but also didn't like it, and so felt the need to attack my question before it was even answered, but now think it was clearly strawmanning (?), and also a loaded question (?), looks like you're either actively defending VD or trying to find a reason to shade me or both.

4.

That said, these last two lines in tandem are funny to me. Nebulous references are exactly what was troubling me about your justification of that interpretation. This is the third or fourth time I have found you accusing me of doing something I have already mentioned about you, or something you are doing in the very same post. I'm not sure if I should believe that's a product of your alignment, or just your personality, but I'm keeping an eye out for it.

This is backed up by nothing (or a falsehood, see point 3 above), and is a great rhetorical tactic for someone who is being disingenuous. "Oh ho! that thing you accused me of actually you are doing as I said before!"

5.

Also, love how slippery you’re being:
- Dutchess: “GC’s question is -clearly strawmanning-”
- GC: “no, here is what his response was and basic Q&A construction and the English language connects those ideas”
- Dutchess: “I don’t want to talk about that, which undermines my shading of your Q”

I am not sure what to call these kinds of posts other than a textbook strawman. I very explicitly disagree with your interpretations of the English language. Here you are once again using lazy schoolyard tactics to discredit my suspicions.

First note discrediting jabs ("lazy schoolyard tactics"). Love it.

Second I was phone posting, so wasn't putting up direct quotes, but it's almost a word-for-word sequence of events that she's now characterizing as "strawman." Here's what I was pulling from:

Spoiler: GC & Duchess (my bolding added to posts)

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Where did you get that? I'm not sure I like or understand your line of questioning.

Where did I get that:

Did you read VD's post that I quoted?


Not sure you like or understand the line of questioning:

Neat. What goal did you have in trying to fence-sit (don't understand & "not sure" if like) undermine a line of questioning that just started?

I feel no need to defend my undermining of

a clear strawman

.

Both RTP and VD correlated their answer about whether VD is bad at being scum with why he was quick-eliminated.

I asked about that because

VD's post literally strings "I'm a bad scum player" with "I was quick-eliminated in RVS" in the span of three sentences

.

That you are contorting basic Q&A logic by saying *I’m* stawmanning and asking loaded Qs when both RTP and VD’s entire response to my Q contained a y/n and then what clearly appeared an explanation for that y/n by referring to the quick-elim

(rather than assuming the reference to the quick elim was a non-sequitur, which is not how normal conversation operates

) is so incredibly disingenuous, that your vote-and-attack by being gently pushed on this seems AI defensive.

Green Crayons. You are characterizing my push on you as a response to your suspicion of me, which is a complete fabrication you seem to have pulled out of thin air for the sake of your argument. My trajectory is very clearly laid out. To call me defensive is nothing but more baseless projection.

I still entirely disagree with your interpretation of VD's response. The last two sentences are not full-on non-sequiturs, but they're not a justification for the first. I see them as Italiano adding his own thoughts to RTP's previous post.

I am not interested in discussing theory of conversation or hearing your analogies

, and I'm troubled by your refusal to address the post in question directly.

To characterize my paraphrase of this very short interaction not just as inaccurate, but as some sort of disingenuous strawmanning, truly is something to see.

The only part of my paraphrasing that is not something Duchess said was ". . . which undermines my shading of your Q"--which, no shit, that was obviously me editorializing your reaction, which is facially obvious to anyone approaching this in good faith.

6.

To cut through this back and forth about how I interpreted VD’s post differently than you: I specifically squarely asked VD a Q to clarify his response, which nullifies your entire supposed premise for why my interaction with VD is suspect. You (supposedly) have no idea what VD was going to say—for example, he could’ve said “yeah, I’m a bad scum bc I shouldn’t have let myself get quick eliminated.” Your premature jump to defend is just so suspect, and your attack-as-a-defense just underscores it.

Italiano's response doesn't matter to me.

I think your question to him was scummy in a vacuum.

I care less about it now because I think your pushback to my suspicion is scummier.

The bolded isn't town perspective.

7.

I don't understand what this implies if it does not implicate you as my partner?

You know VD is town which is why you preemptively defended him against a threat level 1 question.

[Green Crayons]

*you* have played with datisi before.

my bad. what game?

[Green Crayons]

Harumi: do you think you suspected Elements and RTP differently for their same type of play? If so, why. If not, why not.

[Green Crayons]

Blep. Wish you answered my Q earlier. Now this is just a stale suspicion that's quite a dud.

Moving on.

Italiano: Still didn't do much useful, and

seems to have a fixation on arguing with Duchess

? Scum lean.

Curious how you see the bolded as AI, and what differentiates VD from me in terms of our interaction with Duchess.

[Green Crayons]

Curious how you see the bolded as AI

not in theory, but specifically as it relates to VD and Duchess

[Green Crayons]

If RTP is going to reveal his town tell for Harumi, can he also explain his thinking behind revealing the existence of a Top Secret reason to think she was town (which would seem to discourage additional votes on Harumi), but not revealing what that reason was because he wanted to see if the wagon would build:

theres a reason i think pearl fey is town but i wanna wait to reveal it to see if that wagon builds cuz i wanna see game state before i out it cuz i think its relatively strong of a reason to townread them.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Green Crayons]

heh, timing


I am seeing red with duchess, and am giving myself a few IRL days to distance and will revisit

[Green Crayons]

RTP, what do you think of Harumi's readslist? And are you able to share what your towntell was about earlier?

i honestly do not feel i will be much trusting harumi for reads rather than just a town mindset - but the tell I had noticed was they were clueless. Like overtly clueless. With newer/not as skilled/assertive players, coming off as brazenly clueless is a towntell.

If RTP is going to reveal his town tell for Harumi, can he also explain his thinking behind revealing the existence of a Top Secret reason to think she was town (which would seem to discourage additional votes on Harumi), but not revealing what that reason was because he wanted to see if the wagon would build:

[Green Crayons]

Elements, RTP, and Lunar are the only players who have given unexplained reads (though yes I see some explanations once pressed). Did I kiss anyone else with this style of play in this game?

[Green Crayons]

Hunh. Miss.

[Green Crayons]

Going to go and look and see if that’s how y’all usually play.

[Green Crayons]

I don’t really care why you’re doing it. I think it’s a perfectly acceptable style of play and I can usually glean where the reads come from via game context. Just also want to see that everyone that’s pulling this style has done it before, as I’ve never been in a game where it’s been more than one or maybe two players.

[Green Crayons]

Going to go and look and see if that’s how y’all usually play.

If we don't normally play that way you'd assume we are Mafia?

No I would not make that assumption.

[Green Crayons]

You’re asking if I’d assume. I wouldn’t assume anything. If someone is playing differently than usual I’d certainly start asking Qs.

[Green Crayons]

RTP you got prior games you want to own up to?

[Green Crayons]

Fair enough.

Want to help me out with Post 287?

[Green Crayons]

For anyone who cares, Elements did very similar no-explanation reads list in two games I saw when he was town.

What's the point in this meta check then?

I skipped over active games.

Do you think your play here is consistent with your recent play in other games?

I think it's sufficiently close to be a non-issue, but your reaction seems jumpy about a quick meta check.

[Green Crayons]

not compelling to me either, because there was nothing there. just struck me as weird that two players had this style, and then you also joined in with a very similar style that I think scum might see as easy to emulate.

I thought there was someone else who did it as well but i did a quick skim of the thread and didnt see it so I guess not.

[Green Crayons]

Personally I'm more interested in Dunnstral and whether he always is this lurky and fluffy.

I'm down to wagon GC.

Do you need something?

Why are you posting regularly in other games but not here?

Why did you ignore my request for some reads?

Because I didn't see it.

This game isn't interesting right now

Reads: Green Crayons, Reformed Toxic Player for town

Scumreads: Not really sure, Elements was/is being weird, Testarossa I understand little of what is going on in her head despite her posts and it feels like she's said less than she has

VOTE: Testarossa

am i being trolled?

[Green Crayons]

at the same time, it's the exact same feeling i was getting the last game. hell.

what is this referring to?

[Green Crayons]

and keep my vote on Italiano for now

Italiano: Still didn't do much useful, and

seems to have a fixation on arguing with Duchess

? Scum lean.

Curious how you see the bolded as AI, and what differentiates VD from me in terms of our interaction with Duchess.

[Green Crayons]

Tess is weirdly avoiding this game too, yeah?

Active elsewhere?

Is she usually an active player?

[Green Crayons]

^^^ or something else? Clarify "weirdly"

[Green Crayons]

It's interesting how three people decided to reply in some form to VPB's friendly neighbor comment. In general, I would expect scum to be more motivated to engage with that. It's still page 1, so it's possible it was just RVS fun but it is still a thought.

Can you explain this?

[Green Crayons]

talk to me about your vote on dunn?

palate cleanser. felt getting sucked into a duchess vortex and wanted to break my vote away to force my attention away.

Baltar had just mentioned something about Dunn acting like lurker scum from prior scum game, which is a good enough to vote for me rn bc 1. voting lurkers is good for the soul, 2. Baltar pings me town, 3. i assume the meta analysis isn't wrong otherwise Dunn would say so, and 4. it wasn't Duchess.

[Green Crayons]

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

I only see you explain why I'm in here. Want to explain the other three?

[Green Crayons]

do you have anyone that actively pings you scum? (other than maybe duchess, i guess.)

I'm going to revisit Duchess, probably IRL tomorrow.

I'm getting scum pings from RTP and Harumi. Not sure if they are tied together, but they have both repeatedly ignored my direct inquiries; even though they have starkly different activity levels, it feels like they have contributed the same in terms of pushing the game forward; and RTP's preemptive claim of a secret town tell for Harumi doesn't sit right with me (particularly bc he refuses to engage on it).

[Green Crayons]

it feels like they have contributed the same in terms of pushing the game forward

to clarify: I don't think either has pushed the game forward.

[Green Crayons]

i've seen dunn lurk as either alignment, but he definitely hasn't impressed so far.

after being called out by Baltar, it was like pulling teeth to get him to engage and provide any sort of content. tbh not entirely sure which way that cuts in terms of alignment, setting aside whatever meta argument about Dunn and activity levels, but it certainly isn't pro-town even if it doesn't qualify as scum, so atm I'm happy to keep my vote here

[Green Crayons]

midway, andres, baltar

kiiiinda elements but more like not seeing a reason why he's scum bc his play here is pretty spot on with prior town games; so not really town points but more like the absence of scum points

[Green Crayons]

RTP, what do you think of Harumi's readslist? And are you able to share what your towntell was about earlier?

i honestly do not feel i will be much trusting harumi for reads rather than just a town mindset - but the tell I had noticed was they were clueless. Like overtly clueless. With newer/not as skilled/assertive players, coming off as brazenly clueless is a towntell.

If RTP is going to reveal his town tell for Harumi, can he also explain his thinking behind revealing the existence of a Top Secret reason to think she was town (which would seem to discourage additional votes on Harumi), but not revealing what that reason was because he wanted to see if the wagon would build:

[Green Crayons]

And whats scummy about the actions youve stated, i.e. whats the scum motivation?

ignoring direct inquiries means not having to explain your actions/reads

not pushing game forward means not potentially taking heat by pushing town vote, like lurker or active lurker status

your town tell with Harumi tbd I want to hear your response first

[Green Crayons]

I already revealed it.

I'll quote it when im not at work
But discred me more will ya?

I think imma do trustfalls when i get home and analyze isos

......

what the fuck is with people not reading my posts

[Green Crayons]

I *know* you revealed the town tell

that's not what I asked you for

JFC this game

[Green Crayons]

because first duchess and now you are lying about my play and it's bullshit

[Green Crayons]

Can you identify which posts of mine are not attempting to push the game forward?

i'll do the opposite

your datisi and duchess lines of convo struck me as good, but that was early on, and since then you havent pushed

[Green Crayons]

utterly confident attitude

I don't hate this interpretation.

[Green Crayons]

RTP's preemptive claim of a secret town tell for Harumi doesn't sit right with me (particularly bc he refuses to engage on it).

Do you think this is something a Partner would do as Scum? Because I seriously doubt it.

dissuading people to join the wagon could be s/s or s/t (or, yes, t/t)

that early on in the game, though, i'd say unlikely to be s/s (getting flashes of duchess/VD here)

also, not sure which way the mixed messages about others joining a Harumi-wagon cuts (s/s, s/t, or t/t). part of why i wanted to talk through with RTP and get his mindset

[Green Crayons]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

would like to hear from VD some delicious ~self-meta~ about whether he agrees this is how he plays when scumread as town

[Green Crayons]

im still wary of being pocketed

just from people calling you town or something else?

[Green Crayons]

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

I only see you explain why I'm in here. Want to explain the other three?

In 415 I mentioned everyone else is null... here’s my feelings on those slots.

Datisi

- Unreadable, but something feels odd. The tone of your posts feel almost like you’re thumbing your nose at us. Like you know something and are toying with us. But maybe that’s just your play style. Now a few of the players have played with you and the atmosphere around you is pretty split. I’ve never played with you so I placed you here based on what those people have said.

Dunnstral

- Is an unreadable players since you play the same as both alignments, which is why I have you as null. All I know is your town games.

Harumi

- As you know I’m currently playing two games with you. This one and the another one and I can’t read you, which is why I have you at null. Your play could come from both town and scum.

Tessa

- You’ve only posted several times and I’d say your posts weren’t bad, but not enough to get a real read on you. It’s why I placed you here.

Elements

- I literally don’t have a read for you. You may be like Dunn and play similar regardless of alignment, but I only have a town game for you and this could be that, but not having a scum game to compare, I can only place you here.

So am i correct that you haven't explained why the other three are in your elimination pool, or did I miss that?

[Green Crayons]

So what I'm reading is that defeatism isn't a VD-town play to being suspected, or is that part of "just play(ing) on"?

[Green Crayons]

Hm. Hm. Hm.

I don't care about the self-meta for it's own substance. Like maybe VD's defeatist when town or maybe not. I don't care rn.

I was curious if VD was going to try to use his self-meta to justify his play this game. Sort of a (strong attempt to fight meta = null or suspicious) vs. (accept meta doesn't clear him/might implicate him = townish) --> from theory that scum are less inclined to say "yeah my meta would suggest I'm scum this game BUT..." as that's a difficult starting position to make a defense.


What VD gave was... a bit of a muddled inbetween? Like, he started out explaining his meta might suggest he's not acting town here (an anti-scum thing to do), but then sort-of reversed course when I asked him to clarify on that point ("well not necessarily"; which is probably a null bc I explicitly called out an understanding of his prior explanation that would say he's suspicious via meta reasons). So that's a wash.


That said, 605/606 don't strike me as inauthentic frustration(?), for lack of a better term. Maybe acceptance? Doesn't seem like an ATE because it's pretty lo-fi. And I don't see the scum benefit of just giving up when he's sitting at E-4 on D-1. I hadn't really had settled thoughts on VD, and sort of ignored him after I stepped away from Duchess and until I saw he threw a vote my way, but I'm leaning against an elimination.

[Green Crayons]

BM only you have my heart

[Green Crayons]

I thought elements bare-bones reads list was consistent with their town play in prior games, so was null or at least didn't point to scum. Chewing over whether I think this some-what meaty (in comparison) but still minimal reads list is sufficiently different to be AI.

It just seemed a bit like doing something townies do, and

because they promised it early

, but not really having their heart in solving like that.

I missed this. Where did you see this?

[Green Crayons]

what's the case on Dunn?

also where even are elements and dunnstral??

Exactly.

[Green Crayons]

I accept Dunn is lurker regardless of alignment, but rn I'm content with lurker votes. We've got time to whip up activity.

[Green Crayons]

It just seemed a bit like doing something townies do, and

because they promised it early

, but not really having their heart in solving like that.

I missed this. Where did you see this?

Oh you're saying 31 was a promise for a reads list?

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE:

Y'all spewed 10-some-odd pages since yesterday afternoon and work threw up some emergencies on me. I'll start reviewing tonight.

(It better be a fun read.)

[Green Crayons]

hellooooooooooooooo i'm here do i really have to read 12 pages?

someone give me cliff notes. who are we wagoning?

[Green Crayons]

I guess I'll just hit highlights.

Post 696 is Effort Posting. Not AI in terms of delivering content.

I'm assuming this is a bunch of ISO reads. at first glance i was unimpressed bc it mostly looked like observational statements, but doing more than skimming i suppose there's actual positions and AI assessment involved. some town points for staking positions, which is more than RTP was doing earlier.

but it's just a bunch of town reads that ends with some scum claims. the Post 701 "reeval" doesn't make much sense if 696 is an ISO review, because wouldn't that reevaluation show up in the ISO review?

[Green Crayons]

^^^ strongly considering I was slotted as scum by RTP because he got touchy that I questioned him earlier

[Green Crayons]

Post 705 - maybe i'm predisposed to midway's style, but I don't see anything wrong with this post or midway generally. i liked his entrance to this game and this seems aligned with that in terms of thoughtful posting.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: elements
it'll do no such thing!

would vote based on this alone

[Green Crayons]

you need to read through your iso to answer this question? I'd
To illustrate - for me, I tend to lurk more often as scum. So when I'm town and not lurking, I'll roll out that legit meta. But obviously if I'm scum and lurking, and someone asks my meta, I'd need to come up with something slightly different. If you were scum here, making high quality sorting posts, how would you self-meta?

BM: why this?

[Green Crayons]

quote got messed up. just starting from the "To illustrate" point is what I'm asking why about.

[Green Crayons]

didn't you say you had too many scumreads earlier?

also ok, but how are you coming to partnered / associate reads then?

Their interactions with each other suggest it, even recently GC outted an unsubstantiated townread on elements

[Green Crayons]

i can't do reasonably sized images, not sorry

[Green Crayons]

I'd argue your play here much more closely resembles your depiction of your scum-meta than your town-meta. One might suggest you put in lots of effort early, until you realised you could get away with less.

Agree with this take-away about Element's play aligning with self-proclaimed scum meta.

Would Elements!scum knowingly do that to make himself less suspicious by purposefully framing himself as more suspicious?

Anything's possible I suppose. But it relies on some hopes and contingencies that scum might not want to trust. But also is town really going to go "ah hah, you have outted yourself as scum via meta, let's elim!" Prob not. Teeny tiny town points for Elements.

[Green Crayons]

I feel as though if i am right on elements/GC then datisi/vp contain last maf based on how quick they both reacted to my fos on those 2 - please sheep this if both elements and GC indeed flip scum.

Oh and BM was also weird around it. I forgot about them lol

how many scum do you think there are?

[Green Crayons]

Wow, so many new posts.
UNVOTE: Dunnstral
I guess Lunar was voting here? Don't want this today.

you really didn't remove Lunar's vote until now?

i'm gonna keep my eye on you, sunshine!

VOTE: midwaybear

oh i just saw this post quoted, which reminded me:


BM do you still do smilies when you're scum?

[Green Crayons]

page 33 is boring. why are VD and Datisi arguing? is one pushing a case on the other? Both? please advise (with something interesting).

[Green Crayons]

BM’s vote on RTP I’m pretty sure wasn’t meant to be going for an elim or apart of a scum read, but rather hold them accountable for the question he asked. That’s why you and Datisi going onto that wagon looks opportunistic.

can you explain this more because wouldn't BM's lead onto RTP be fickle and so the opportunity would vanish once RTP answered the Q?

i thought the quick one-two RTP votes seemed weird on first pass, but looking at them i don't see anything weird with them themselves, so figured it's just because we don't have a bunch of vote hops/wagons happening yet in this game

[Green Crayons]

Post 871 is interesting. I think it favors RLotus town. he's openly musing about whether two other players already know each other's alignment.

if RL!scum, then he knows their alignment and presumably they are not s/s (otherwise... just why point that out?). So maybe he's trying to push suspicion for interactions without a flip? But that should rightly go nowhere until a flip, and then (presuming t/t) would definitely go nowhere. plus we all get to yell at him for trying to make associative calls before a flip, and his reads might take a hit in credibility. bad for RL!scum.

Now if Baltar/Datisi is s/t, maybe it's a long-term backup strat if the s gets flipped? Maybe.

My other thought is that maybe RL!scum would be trying to signal to scum a potential t/t connection (mason, etc.)--but all PTs have daytalk, so no need to signal in thread.


not impossible for RL!scum to make 871, but think it more likely points to town just because I don't know what it gets RL!scum and seems to be more negative.

[Green Crayons]

i'm going to stop at p 35, goodnight you heathens.

[Green Crayons]

why do you townread elements?

not sure where you get that i'm townreading elements, but i think on balance his play points away from scum

kiiiinda elements but more like not seeing a reason why he's scum bc his play here is pretty spot on with prior town games; so not really town points but more like the absence of scum points

I'd argue your play here much more closely resembles your depiction of your scum-meta than your town-meta. One might suggest you put in lots of effort early, until you realised you could get away with less.

Agree with this take-away about Element's play aligning with self-proclaimed scum meta.

Would Elements!scum knowingly do that to make himself less suspicious by purposefully framing himself as more suspicious?

Anything's possible I suppose. But it relies on some hopes and contingencies that scum might not want to trust. But also is town really going to go "ah hah, you have outted yourself as scum via meta, let's elim!" Prob not. Teeny tiny town points for Elements.

[Green Crayons]

GC, who are your townreads outside of elements btw?

midway, andres, Baltar, RL. I think elements is on the town side of the ledger for reasons ID'd above. BM had a great entrance with burst of activity + bringing thegame back to life, which also suggests town.

[Green Crayons]

I still don't like VPB's vote there, because it seems to be a repeating pattern in how he has been playing.

I'm going to go back and pick up from 35 after I catch up with these last few pages, so I'm quoting this to remind myself to pick up this line of convo.

[Green Crayons]

he has a good chance of being scum

is this because of VD's defeatism/ATE or something else? link me if you've already made this point before, sorry in advance

[Green Crayons]

can i get shotgun reads from you next time you're here?

GC, who are your townreads outside of elements btw?

midway, andres, Baltar, RL. I think elements is on the town side of the ledger for reasons ID'd above. BM had a great entrance with burst of activity + bringing thegame back to life, which also suggests town.

Oh I forgot VD. I'm thinking town side of the ledger.


I'd be okay with eliminating Harumi/maxwell, RTP, Dunn.................. maybe duchess but i have been avoiding that read bc I was not having fun with this game when that was happening

[Green Crayons]

You having me somehow below them is also funny - what cause i fos you?

Ah yes that is... precisely the exact opposite of how this game happened.

I'm getting scum pings from RTP and Harumi.

Im starting to understand the foses on you

you suspected me because I said you were suspicious. thank you for projecting.

[Green Crayons]

Ur stuck on this like null read bc u dont wanna be forced to vote them or take a stance on them

"GC/elements scum bc GC townreads elements"

oh wait


"GC/elements scum bc GC nullreads elements"

[Green Crayons]

for reference, so you can't go "nuh UH I didn't ACTUALLY say those EXACT WORDS":

didn't you say you had too many scumreads earlier?

also ok, but how are you coming to partnered / associate reads then?

Their interactions with each other suggest it, even recently GC outted an unsubstantiated townread on elements

Ur stuck on this like null read bc u dont wanna be forced to vote them or take a stance on them

[Green Crayons]

i've got a plan
let's vote me out to prove all your speculations about me being scum wrong
VOTE: elements

are you triggering me on purpose?

[Green Crayons]

Ur own words you walked your townread back saying it was a null read

[Green Crayons]

You having me somehow below them is also funny - what cause i fos you?

Ah yes that is... precisely the exact opposite of how this game happened.

I'm getting scum pings from RTP and Harumi.

Im starting to understand the foses on you

you suspected me because I said you were suspicious. thank you for projecting.

No it was not the reason - it was the way you were presenting your reads that i was understanding.

oh yes your suspicion was clearly a process problem, you clearly weren't suspecting me because i suspected you:

I already revealed it.

I'll quote it when im not at work
But discred me more will ya?

I think imma do trustfalls when i get home and analyze isos

And whats scummy about the actions youve stated, i.e. whats the scum motivation?

ignoring direct inquiries means not having to explain your actions/reads

not pushing game forward means not potentially taking heat by pushing town vote, like lurker or active lurker status

your town tell with Harumi tbd I want to hear your response first

Can you identify which posts of mine are not attempting to push the game forward?
Because you are going to look silly when i prove you wrong

I mean you are going to be looking silly when i prove your points about ne wrong because i know youre fudging them.

Im starting to understand the foses on you

[Green Crayons]

you didnt even press the point then -> i say these kinds of offhand comments just to see what ppl will or will not reply to. I find it amusing you are trying to bring up those same comments as suspicious now that its convenient.

lol

you have ignored me c o n s t a n t l y this game

when i pushed you on it, you said that you had already answered it (you hadn't), and called me suspicious for trying to discredit you

[Green Crayons]

also it's not that i'm bringing them up now because now it's convenient

i'm bringing it up now because your past comments show when your current comments are bs

the "convenience" is just showing the lack of validity in your present comments based on your past play

[Green Crayons]

Like youre not even responding to the accusation that i said thay youre trying to widen poe -> you outted a bunch of ppl yousay you would be "unopposed" to eliminating. Like u threw in a bunch of inactive slots and added me and called it a day.

i dont understand what that means but also i dont care about how you envision how i should play so i have no inclination to respond to your characterization of my play

[Green Crayons]

If you did push me on it then you'd have quoted it.

it's literally right there beside the posts i quoted

[Green Crayons]

Like youre not even responding to the accusation that i said thay youre trying to widen poe -> you outted a bunch of ppl yousay you would be "unopposed" to eliminating. Like u threw in a bunch of inactive slots and added me and called it a day.

i dont understand what that means but also i dont care about how you envision how i should play so i have no inclination to respond to your characterization of my play

you do know what it means u just wanna waste conversation to fluff and ignore it.

VOTE: RTP

[Green Crayons]

no idea what the fuck "widen poe" means so thanks for your bad faith argument and your bs suspicions that are literally because i suspected you

[Green Crayons]

i suspected you, i asked you to answer the Q you were ignoring, you said "why is this scummy", said you had answered the Q (you hadn't) and I was misrepping you, i explained why scummy, you said my reasons were BS and that you understood the FOSes on me.

all starts from Post 464 and takes like 10 posts for you to go "you suspect me?" to "you're suspicious"

[Green Crayons]

Post 462*

[Green Crayons]

What I'm noticing with VPB is that he seems to be sitting by and looking for mis elims where he can get them, whilst being non committal to his reads (except Dunn), as if to avoid looking bad when they flip town.

There are certainly a couple of posts that are gauging interest on different players (not all of them, i'm not sure why you grouped some of these posts with others), but isn't your theory scum AI only if all of those players are actually town? So I'm not sure how you get that point at this stage.

Also,

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Yeah I’m feeling VPB today

VOTE: VPB

What changed here?

[Green Crayons]

oh lol i misread the IVD as VPB in 875

[Green Crayons]

Umm I suppose he could throw one of his partners in there as well. The behavior looks bad + his lack of solving effort. I'm not necessarily trying to put the whole puzzle together at this point, as it were.

fair enough on not trying to solve, but it was an initial problem that came to mind when i read his posts with my Baltar!scum goggles on

i'm not seeing the AI that can be gleaned from taking these posts altogether. several posts are him having conversations about game events/players, which is productive even if not in itself AI. there's a couple of "what do you think about X" posts, which isn't damming but certainly would be if that was the majority of his play.

i hear you on him not really leading the charge on folks outside of Dunn, but i'm not seeing how that's AI when he's got these side conversations about other players/events. doesn't seem to be a lack of solving effort in my view, just that you read his effort as suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

I'm curious: did you have problems with Baltar's play before his RTP vote, and that was the last straw and so you laid out this case against Baltar, or did his RTP vote bother you so you went to go back and look to see if there was something suspicious about his play, and that's when you saw these problems that led to your long post?

[Green Crayons]

i'm rereading 869

then i'm rereading this page

and i'm wondering if lotus is town here, for the sole reason of "is scum really *this* tone-deaf?"

can you explain this reaction to 869?

[Green Crayons]

hellooooooooooooooo i'm here do i really have to read 12 pages?

someone give me cliff notes. who are we wagoning?

It's a fast read. There is some thread spam you can move quickly through

alright, caught up to this point and just want to say


Baltar lies

[Green Crayons]

the vibe i'm getting from duchess' 989 is town who gets super fixated on things that are important to them, then gets frustrated when other people don't see it that way / don't pay attention to same details and mistake that for scum

how are you slotting this as town rather than NAI?

[Green Crayons]

is there a reason why you're town on lotus that's not about that one post?

That post pushed it over into a comfortable town read just because I think it's a low likelihood for scum to post that sort of thing. Before that, I was toying with town because of his tunnel on VD. He saw some early play that he thought looked scummy, and then stuck with it in a way that I find myself doing when convinced I've got scum. His openness about the fact he was tunneling doesn't do him any favors, so I don't see the "scum tunnel so they can be lazy" theory fitting.

[Green Crayons]

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

I'm curious: did you have problems with Baltar's play before his RTP vote, and that was the last straw and so you laid out this case against Baltar, or did his RTP vote bother you so you went to go back and look to see if there was something suspicious about his play, and that's when you saw these problems that led to your long post?

Initially, I read these side questions/him pushing people from the side as towny. It wasn't until his interactions with BM did I realize that he kept poking at slots without trying to solve them.

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

This series of posts in particular

Seeing these again, I agree that these three posts you quoted here *are* weird. I can see the theory that this is Baltar!scum trying to gin up a mis-elim by making someone else (BM) take the lead.**

But I don't see that in his earlier play, including the other posts you have quoted. So I don't agree that there's a unified presentation of Baltar!scum play in trying to get others to take the lead to a mis-elim.

**BM came into this game as super-town, though. And BM doesn't really get controlled, so I doubt Baltar was going to nudge BM somewhere he didn't want to go. So I'm not too hot on this theory actually fitting this situation.

[Green Crayons]

is there a reason why you're town on lotus that's not about that one post?

That post pushed it over into a comfortable town read just because I think it's a low likelihood for scum to post that sort of thing. Before that, I was toying with town because of his tunnel on VD. He saw some early play that he thought looked scummy, and then stuck with it in a way that I find myself doing when convinced I've got scum. His openness about the fact he was tunneling doesn't do him any favors, so I don't see the "scum tunnel so they can be lazy" theory fitting.

thanks for the townread on me here

okay

grass is blue and sky is green

[Green Crayons]

@mod:

I'm not voting myself.

<<Woops! Had your name on there twice. Fixed.>>

[Green Crayons]

you haven't tunneled on a player, you've jumped around a lot.

[Green Crayons]

not sure where you get that i'm townreading elements, but i think on balance his play points away from scum

Sorry if you answered this already, but what did you think of their progression on Baltar from the Baltar/Duchess discussion?

I couldn't quite follow what Elements was finding suspicious, as the (Duchess claimed to have caught Elements lurking) versus (Duchess claimed to have caught Elements while they were online) distinction seemed to be both accurate. I don't know why Baltar focusing on one and not the other was a misrep, as Elements was saying.

Pushing that sort of thinnest of split hairs as a basis for suspicion would be suspicious if Elements stuck to it imo. But that Elements took a moment, reflected, and then backed away while also undermining the line of suspicion (so they weren't just planting it out there for someone else to pick up) seems town on a surface level.

I also think it's plausible that Elements!scum thought they had something, realized it wouldn't really stick, and fessed up--which gives them points for being reasonable while also abandoning a difficult line of suspicion to push.

So in a vacuum: town vibes. But, in context of the rest of Elements play: I'd feel more comfortable with a town takeaway if the rest of Elements play was a strong town read. But they're not strong town, so it doesn't move the needle for me much.

[Green Crayons]

First thing that struck me was very early on, where 133 appeared to take the least charitable interpretation of duchess's post by accusing them of fence-sitting for a rhetorical device "not sure I like your line of questioning" that isn't really fence-sitty.

couching an attack as "don't understand" + "not sure I like" = fence sitting. it isn't a full commitment to the attack.

this is a weird thing to bring up. did Duchess and I even argue over it? I don't recall doing so.

1076 is responding to RTP asking why they are below elements in GC's reads, and GC turns it into a "well, ACTUALLY you are suspecting me because I suspect you" argument,

uh my Elements and RTP reads aren't gradations of the same alignment. i'm reading Elements as on the town side of the alignment line, RTP on the scum side. so RTP asking why he is "below" elements = RTP asking why he's being scumread.

And i (1) answered that by linking to Post 462, which started my prior explanation for why i was reading RTP as scum--so, yes, I didn't repeat my reasons but I linked to them, and (2) simultaneously noted RTP's inaccurate projection of his own suspicious play onto my play (the notion that I was scumreading him only bc he FOS'd me)

"well, ACTUALLY you are suspecting me because I suspect you" argument

where the reason RTP was "starting to understand the foses on [Green Crayons]" was because they disagreed with GC's accusation that they were not "pushing the game forawrd"

these are the same thing

[Green Crayons]

honestly the ATE spew in the past couple of pages has made me questioned

but it seems to originate from BM treating RTP sort of shitty

Like I think RTP is in the right in terms of BM playing a bit disrespectful here, so I think the ATE stemming from that point feels right bc it is right

toying around what that means for RTP's play more generally

[Green Crayons]

I don't see their play

speaking of their play, RTP's comment yesterday about how my read of Lotus's tunneling activity = townish means that I should also read RTP as town has also got me thinking.

i think they have reevaluated their reads something like three or four times just in D1? want to iso but this is basically the exact opposite of a tunnel. it does suggest flexibility and freedom, but i believe there was some self-meta discussion about how RTP is purposefully acting this way to avoid his past meta or something like that? like i said i need to iso and review

[Green Crayons]

to avoid their past meta*

apologies

[Green Crayons]

i'm referring to your misuse of pronouns, which happened a couple of times even after they asked

[Green Crayons]

My argument would be that you could certainly shift wildly as a scum tactic, but it really feels uncomfortable because you know you're making it up and there is inherent risk someone calls you on it. Town players don't feel that risk.

rtp strikes me as having the personality as feeling like they could pull it off

[Green Crayons]

trying to get me and rtp to clash again because potentially we are both town and it means a scum elim is less likely.

slimy tactics, but GC plays to win no matter what.

[Green Crayons]

BM-to-English translation:

1. you were already voting RTP so i don't need to encourage you to vote. also i was explaining why i was seeing RTP's emotional response as NAI, because his frustration seemed genuine about a non-game issue, so i don't know how that leads to whatever you're saying.

2. that's mean.

[Green Crayons]

BM, my guy. i was responding to Baltar asking me about RTP's emotional response to you. I would prefer that you and RTP don't keep it up.

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

[Green Crayons]

BM, my guy. i was responding to Baltar asking me about RTP's emotional response to you. I would prefer that you and RTP don't keep it up.

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

this post doesn't make sense to me here -> are you trying to claim maxwell/me are SvT? or what? bc you're implying im getting pocketed by maxwell by this, yet I moved off of you so im not following that path rn.

yes implying s/t here, not pocketing bc you already called his slot obvtown a million years ago so just playing to keep that read

forgot you had unvoted me so theory is a little less valid.

[Green Crayons]

:

lmao maybe i could but thatd be like a play for a game i really really wanted to win as scum not just like a one off normal for me where i'd go with my more comfortable plays that have worked for me.

i missed this earlier.

how should i go about determining whether this is a game where you really want to win as scum or a game where this is you're pursuing your more comfortable plays?

[Green Crayons]

green, i don't think you answered my q in 1127?

you aren't null, you're mid-tier town

[Green Crayons]

:

lmao maybe i could but thatd be like a play for a game i really really wanted to win as scum not just like a one off normal for me where i'd go with my more comfortable plays that have worked for me.

i missed this earlier.

how should i go about determining whether this is a game where you really want to win as scum or a game where this is you're pursuing your more comfortable plays?

and to sort-of cut to the chase: i'm asking this in the context of folks (you also?) describing your play as chaotic in this game, which was not something they saw as usual for you (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE:

[Green Crayons]

:

lmao maybe i could but thatd be like a play for a game i really really wanted to win as scum not just like a one off normal for me where i'd go with my more comfortable plays that have worked for me.

i missed this earlier.

how should i go about determining whether this is a game where you really want to win as scum or a game where this is you're pursuing your more comfortable plays?

and to sort-of cut to the chase: i'm asking this in the context of folks (you also?) describing your play as chaotic in this game, which was not something they saw as usual for you (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

[Green Crayons]

if it's elements vs. VD why are people picking VD? they are equally townish but VD has actually been participating recently. plus I agree with his reads so I'm biased but also reflects potential of coming from town mindset.

[Green Crayons]

I think VPB has been irritable/solvey and they’re not backing from a fight (say for example, with Green Crayons)

i don't remember fighting with Baltar so what's this?

So, if you look at the game with those slots as Town, I’m starting to think that {Green Crayons, RLotus, Dunnstral} and to a lesser extent midwaybear all make sense as potential executions.

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

[Green Crayons]

i'm jiuggling work and childcare otday so will try to catch up and vote soon

[Green Crayons]

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

Uhm, I have definitely tried to place everyone in my head and express a read. I have a whole silly pyramid I built with literally everybody’s name on it. So I’m not sure where this is coming from. I made one adjustment after the pyramid I posted which is to switch you with midway (and I’m partly influenced by RTP you could say on that one).

Yeah I saw your pyramid in 1536 but your big substance post of narrowing down your elim pool was in 1535 and 1535 didn’t mention harumi/max. Just wanted to know basis for your read on the slot. If you put it somewhere I missed it so just link me to it and call me dumb.

[Green Crayons]

Oh my bad, I mixed up midway with maxwell. I think people were compromising on maxwell not midway. But come on, we keep disintegrating these wagons just to run up another one to do it again.

I've been keeping up with thread off and on today. I'd like for us to be able to end this day ASAP because I think we all need a break. I feel like I've caught on to something with RTP and feel like maybe there was possibly some theatre involved, but then again maybe I'm being unreasonable. I don't really feel like it right now, but I'll look at your iso and interactions again. But it looks like a lot of people can/will compromise for midway. Midway is a slot I haven't felt good about since he replaced in. I don't know about Elements, I'ma bit torn there, I can hammer if it gets to that point. Anything to end this day, but I generally feel the best about eliminating midway.

VOTE: midwaybear

I'm off to bed. I'll holla at y'all later.

Oh my bad, I mixed up midway with maxwell. I think people were compromising on maxwell not midway. But come on, we keep disintegrating these wagons just to run up another one to do it again.

So are you suspecting midway, max, both, or neither? What is with this whiplash.

[Green Crayons]

cool, why?

Your play has been fairly transparent + your interactions with others is natural, doesn’t seem like it’s angling for a position, but also isn’t make work but looks like trying to sort players

[Green Crayons]

@Elements @BM might as well just vote me. We can end this day and you guys can catch the scum that’s on my wagon.

So that ATE I mentioned before as being lo-fi just got cranked to 11. Not sure what this is supposed to accomplish from town POV?

[Green Crayons]

I think VPB has been irritable/solvey and they’re not backing from a fight (say for example, with Green Crayons)

i don't remember fighting with Baltar so what's this?

So, if you look at the game with those slots as Town, I’m starting to think that {Green Crayons, RLotus, Dunnstral} and to a lesser extent midwaybear all make sense as potential executions.

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

Uhm, I have definitely tried to place everyone in my head and express a read. I have a whole silly pyramid I built with literally everybody’s name on it. So I’m not sure where this is coming from. I made one adjustment after the pyramid I posted which is to switch you with midway (and I’m partly influenced by RTP you could say on that one).

Yeah I saw your pyramid in 1536 but your big substance post of narrowing down your elim pool was in 1535 and 1535 didn’t mention harumi/max. Just wanted to know basis for your read on the slot. If you put it somewhere I missed it so just link me to it and call me dumb.

1608

And it’s obviously not dumb since VPB also asked it.

ty should probably catch up before asking Qs

I guess I can’t blame you for the read, but blah.

I find when people voice similar suspicions as me then they are on a town wavelength and I give them town points. Not just the alignment read itself (bc scum can do that with 100% accuracy).

For maxwell, is it both of those or just the latter (I’m referring to the quote where I think he had same town block as you)?

[Green Crayons]

So are you suspecting midway, max, both, or neither? What is with this whiplash.

Why are you asking a question you already have the answer to?

Is 1550 about midway or maxwell? That’s my confusion bc of 1551.

The “neither” was sarcasm.

[Green Crayons]

I thought 1550 was about midway but then you mention Whoops maxwell in 1551 so we’re you intending 1550 to be about maxwell or is 1550 supposed to be about midway and you just thought folks were looking there. If the latter, do you suspect maxwell?

[Green Crayons]

Yeah I mean that’s what bothered me but why I asked for his explanation re town POV.

[Green Crayons]

Not the bus part I haven’t gotten that far

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: maxwell want to trust my gut

Prefer this over VD and elements atm

[Green Crayons]

[Green Crayons]

So I can’t compel anyone with the maxwell flash wagon hunh?

[Green Crayons]

Psst VD

[Green Crayons]

If 1550/1551 means you suspect max

[Green Crayons]

Psst elements and Datisi

[Green Crayons]

Yeah i mean the only thing he’s done that’s suspicious since I last assessed was going into full give up mode but not sure which way that cuts

[Green Crayons]

+ balanced with his articulated suspicions I’m still reading on town side of the line

[Green Crayons]

Post 1378 and Post 1429 echoed suspicions i had about RTP at the time.

i've put a pause on my RTP suspicions for reasons, so this is a "other player voiced reasons to suspect RTP that mirrored my own reasons" read

[Green Crayons]

Scum afraid to vote lol

what's this mean?

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Dunn

Works for me.

[Green Crayons]

I'm also happy with a maxwell vote, especially with the RTP town flip.

Looking forward to Cookie's thoughts to help me sort the slot divorced from my Duchess interactions.

[Green Crayons]

i preferred elements over VD, but still had them both on town side of the line. i would've voted either to avoid no elim, obviously.

[Green Crayons]

Post 1378 and Post 1429 echoed suspicions i had about RTP at the time.

i've put a pause on my RTP suspicions for reasons, so this is a "other player voiced reasons to suspect RTP that mirrored my own reasons" read

And once Italiano becomes a near certainty, this comes out? And you’re not suspicious?

this was in reference to RTP backing off of his GC vote

I thought he had spotted something in the thread which i think is obvious

[Green Crayons]

I'm also happy with a maxwell vote, especially with the RTP town flip.

This, btw, is gross and nonsensical

yup, actually. i was only looking at the RTP flip, forgot to consider that RTP was probably scum killed.

[Green Crayons]

well, yup on the nonsensical. not the gross part.

[Green Crayons]

i preferred elements over VD, but still had them both on town side of the line. i would've voted either to avoid no elim, obviously.

So who is Scum to you then?

i was riding high on my maxwell theory until about five minutes ago

Dunn and Duchess slot still in my elim pool

I'll reread Lotus's, midway's, and Elements' ISOs later today, as i think they were on the lower end of my town reads, but i might be confusing midway and andre

[Green Crayons]

I'll reread Lotus's, midway's, and Elements' ISOs later today, as i think they were on the lower end of my town reads, but i might be confusing midway and andre

I'll be interested to see what conclusions you draw from this rather

i had too much to drink so im going to do this tomorrow i'll start with youuuuu <3

[Green Crayons]

Elements, what happened to your Lotus focus from D1?

His iso being stagnant with reads the entire game, then when this is pointed out he comes back and starts being active in a way that to me seems like scum panic to put out good town stuff.

an interesting thought has crossed my mind. What if RL is scum, sort of just bobbing along because his scum buddies are inactive; let's say Testarossa and Dunn, then battle mage replaces one of them. Suddenly there's a turnaround in activity from both slots who co-ordinate a back and forth to make both look more towny.

VOTE: RLotus

people are generally ambivalent towards you. you're sort of sitting there in the middle of game impact. No one's pushed for you. You're towny enough that scum haven't bothered to push you but not so towny they need to try discredit you. Idk I'm spouting nonsense, vibes.

VOTE: RLotus

[Green Crayons]

Why is RLotus being wagoned? Looking at the votecount, I could vote GC, Italiano, and RLotus if people sell me on it.

was the "if people sell me on it" referring to all three of those players, or just Lotus?

[Green Crayons]

Admittedly, my explanations for voting Italiano weren't the greatest, but it just seems like maxwell got just enough to throw a vote on me and then dipped.

do you have anything to add about your VD vote that you think maxwell should have explored before re-voting you?

[Green Crayons]

@midway: do you think your play has shifted from when you replaced in/were catching up, to now? Spoiler: I do. I hate to just say ~it's vibes~ because that's unhelpful, frankly, so trying to be a bit more concrete: you seemed to dive a bit more in-depth with others' posting earlier on, but now you seem more like you're just bobbing along with where ever the thread's current takes you. What's with the shift?

[Green Crayons]

Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

after elements explains why they think Cookie is obvscum, i'd like to hear why you think Cookie is LHF

[Green Crayons]

So for what reason am I still the leading wagon?

what's your usual trajectory for lurking as town v scum?

say, specifically, with regard to beginning of d2

[Green Crayons]

Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

after elements explains why they think Cookie is obvscum, i'd like to hear why you think Cookie is LHF

oh lol Elements answered at the page top

so, i'd like to hear why you think Cookie is LHF

[Green Crayons]

I'm not really sure what you're asking

I haven't been lurking on day 2

that was my point

you were lurkfest d1

came out of the d2 gate like a gunshot

the sudden 180 caught my attention and i wanted to know what your ~*~self meta~*~ is on your tapering off of lurk play, as everyone in this game has a chorus of "dunn lurks as both alignments"

[Green Crayons]

1921 from GC feels like a weird way to present a question
To answer it, I should be playing the same as long as my motivation is here. I was not really into the game for a lot of D1.
VOTE: Green Crayons

that's... not really an answer.

anyway, i thought your catch up posts in your early d1 game looked solidly town

but then you dropped off

i think replacing in can be super powerful for scum, because scum can use catch-up posts to look really solid town. (i also think town can benefit from replacing in for this same reason.)

your sudden drop off in activity suggests that something happened to change your posts. not having the ability to reap the benefit of "catching up" town posts comes to mind, which suggests AI.

[Green Crayons]

came out of the d2 gate like a gunshot

are we reading the same game

relative to d1

dunn had a whole back and forth with mom, it was incredible. i think it lasted something like 5 posts

[Green Crayons]

Admittedly, my explanations for voting Italiano weren't the greatest, but it just seems like maxwell got just enough to throw a vote on me and then dipped.

do you have anything to add about your VD vote that you think maxwell should have explored before re-voting you?

[Green Crayons]

came out of the d2 gate like a gunshot

are we reading the same game

relative to d1

dunn had a whole back and forth with mom, it was incredible. i think it lasted something like 5 posts

and it was a back and forth that went nowhere and said nothing so like idek

what's your current read on dunn again?

on his best day his play null this game, poe suggests scum, and at this point i think a flip either way would be informative

[Green Crayons]

So then what are you even saying about maxwell?

[Green Crayons]

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

Yeah I’m going to insist. The fact that they backed off at the end after they probably decided to just shoot RTP really brings the point home.

I am going to strongly suggest that GC is Scum here. In fact my read has only hardened after ISO’ing there, and I would like to encourage all of you to read there carefully.

I’ve already addressed this.

Post 1378 and Post 1429 echoed suspicions i had about RTP at the time.

i've put a pause on my RTP suspicions for reasons, so this is a "other player voiced reasons to suspect RTP that mirrored my own reasons" read

And once Italiano becomes a near certainty, this comes out? And you’re not suspicious?

this was in reference to RTP backing off of his GC vote

I thought he had spotted something in the thread which i think is obvious

Rtp was rereading the entire game repeatedly yesterday.

I thought that they had finally saw my claim when they mysteriously unvoted me and told others to back off.

[Green Crayons]

ind it difficult to beleive that a person entirely forgets a tell they used to use once upon a time BUT I guess I could give you the benefit of the doubt

What’s exactly your theory here of why VP!scum would be lying?

[Green Crayons]

lol it's on the first page

[Green Crayons]

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

[Green Crayons]

you're vomiting confbias on my dutchess suspicions. that's just scumhunting my guy.

[Green Crayons]

at minimum it requires dutchess to be town, which i don't think she is. i stepped away from pushing her because she flagrantly lied about my play, twice, and nobody gave a shit and it was going to give me an aneurysm

[Green Crayons]

okay

[Green Crayons]

why would Baltar need to know that there was a neighborizer? what is even your thought process.

I saw Baltar's post and thought either he was just shooting the breeze, and it was worth putting out a crumb, or maybe similar to a game i just played (I believe with Baltar) where there were multiple folks of the same role (here, neighborizers) and he was trying to see if there was a similar situation

[Green Crayons]

okay

[Green Crayons]

ah yes, let me divulge who i neighborized while sitting at e-2 when you're already convinced that i'm scum and have said my role doesn't sway you otherwise

no thank you

[Green Crayons]

ah yes, let me divulge who i neighborized while sitting at e-2 when you're already convinced that i'm scum and have said my role doesn't sway you otherwise

no thank you

This is a Scum claim.

You’ve effectively confirmed for everybody that you’re a Neighborizer. Revealing who you targeted has no impact other than allow that player to confirm your role. You declining to do so is a horrible look.

i can recruit multiple times and i'd like for the scum to not know who my selectively curated townblock is

[Green Crayons]

well that just goes to show i didn't read your mind

[Green Crayons]

how does it not make sense? i can recruit multiple times. i will recruit people i think are town. we will further suss out our alignments in neighborhood pt, or find out if one is scum. it's like a masonhood where you have to actually work for it.

[Green Crayons]

nooooo shiiiiiiit

we will further suss out our alignments in neighborhood pt,

or find out if one is scum

lol

[Green Crayons]

the whole benefit of the neighborhood pt is the intense, small-circle discussion to help vet those in the pt

[Green Crayons]

i didn't claim PR umprompted, it explains why i stopped pushing RTP & why RTP stopped pushing me

[Green Crayons]

or rather, why i think RTP stopped pushing me. if not then idk what they were on about

[Green Crayons]

okay

[Green Crayons]

if you think i said at the end of D1 that i'm not pushing RTP "for reasons" but then had reasons other than I think that they saw my crumb then i'd love to hear em but that is what it is