Mini 2230: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night: Game Over

[Lukewarm]

To be real, it feels like A LOT of people are dismissing the plan, because not trying to kill scum today does not "feel right" and trying to vote out the scum does "feel right" without actually looking at the pros and cons of the plans.

Spoiler:

[Lukewarm]

And, like.... Captain America said that... right before they fucking lost to thanos.

And in the next movie, they actually win because both black widow and iron man do sacrifice themselves.

That kind of thematically proves my point lol.

[Lukewarm]

Don't really want to debate a movie in here.

But, when I see an option that is like way more +ev for us to win, not doing it because of the "principle" of it is very very not convincing to me

If you have a perfect solve, and we kill them today and tomorrow directly, then we win. If you have a perfect solve, and we do my plan, and then kill them tomorrow and the next day, we still win (EVEN IF MY PLAN FAILS BTW - like, if they have a roleblocker, it still works with a perfect solve today)

If you have the perfect solve, we win either way.

But if your solve is wrong, we lose with your plan. And if your solve is wrong, we get to try again with my plan.

So, I'm playing to my win condition by pushing it as hard as I can.

[Lukewarm]

Dunn and Medea? Every fiber of my being says that they are scum when I look over their isos from days 1 and 2, but dunn has seemed super town, and I just dont see how the mech could work on scum medea.

Could you reword? There's a clear contradiction between isoing Dun and Medea and thinking they're both scum days 1 and 2, but Dunn seeming super town, unless you're saying Dunn has only seemed super town this day phase.

Back.

-Bell

I tried to fix it later. The "they" was penguin and cabd.

[Lukewarm]

Then I think that unwnd MUST agree to shard you tonight.

It delays the first deshard by a night, assuming manatee is a backup desharder, and it adds a demonic to the count that otherwise wouldn't happen, but after night 5 we should be back to today's count hopefully.

This loses the game if we don't hit the corrupter today.

We are at 6 + 1 corrupted

If unwnd turns the dragons, and then the scum corrupt one and turn both, that is 9. We lose.

The only way for this plan to work we have to either: kill the scum corrupter directly or force a human townie to suicide on you. (And if we are forcing a human townie to suicide on you anyways, it should just be the dragons...)

Having unwnd shard the dragons feels like a bad plan. It also relies on trusting that both the dragons and unwnd are town. (To be fair, my plan requires trusting manatee to be town, but that feels safer to me)

[Lukewarm]

And like look at my pro / con post from last page x.x

[Lukewarm]

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

All plans involve finding our best guess for the scum team today, but then the different plans branch on how to go about killing them

------

Plan 1: Vote for the scum team directly this Day phase.

Spoiler:

If we are correct, we have killed scum today. Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have no miss shots)

If we are wrong, we lose. On the spot. They turn 2 people tonight using the corrupter, and then there are 8 demons and 2 scum tomorrow.

------

Plan 2: Try to get our top scum read to hammer the Fishes

Spoiler:

If we are correct, they just refuse to hammer. We then have to vote them out directly. We kill scum today, Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one. (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have 0 miss shots)

If we are wrong, then a townie hammers you, and tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose. If we do this plan, hit a townie today, and then successfully find scum tomorrow, but it is the non-corrupter tomorrow we lose.

Plan 3: Ask the dragons to hammer the Fishes (then killing our top scum reads starting tomorrow)

Spoiler:

If we do this plan, and we are right, we buy ourselves SO FUCKING MUCH Leway. Like, omg, we can miss like 3 times afterwards. And we are getting so much more info to solve with.

If we are wrong, then we still don't lose. It is the same as missing in plan 2: tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose.

-----

My plan has THE BEST upside if it works, hands down. No one is even arguing this, I don't think

But then it does not even have the worst downsides on being wrong (see plan 1)...

And there are still people out there advocating plan 1...



To be real, it feels like A LOT of people are dismissing the plan, because not trying to kill scum today does not "feel right" and trying to vote out the scum does "feel right" without actually looking at the pros and cons of the plans.

This one

[Lukewarm]

Yeah let’s have two townies purposefully kill each other instead of kill scum

That’s a great fucking idea how could this ever go wrong

But you are instead on board for unwnd to demonize someone else, and make it that much closer for the scum team to win?

[Lukewarm]

Yeah let’s have two townies purposefully kill each other instead of kill scum

That’s a great fucking idea how could this ever go wrong

But you are instead on board for unwnd to demonize someone else, and make it that much closer for the scum team to win?

The scum team are very clearly not trying to win by killing townies, they are trying to win by turning humans into demons.

Killing townies does not actually make them closer to winning. Passing out shards does...

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Snarky Fishes

FF signed off.

Dragons, hammer us.

-Bell

Do we direct manatee before we do this?

Or is it actually better to trust manatee to choose a demon to turn?

There are pros and cons to both. It is probably better to let her choose if we think she will live til tomorrow with medea and spiff both targeting her.

If we are worried about a strong man, then we might need to say who she is targeting in advance tho

[Lukewarm]

Noted,
Lukewarm, vote us.

-Bell

Would like the full plan ironed out first x.x

[Lukewarm]

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

All plans involve finding our best guess for the scum team today, but then the different plans branch on how to go about killing them

------

Plan 1: Vote for the scum team directly this Day phase.

Spoiler:

If we are correct, we have killed scum today. Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have no miss shots)

If we are wrong, we lose. On the spot. They turn 2 people tonight using the corrupter, and then there are 8 demons and 2 scum tomorrow.

------

Plan 2: Try to get our top scum read to hammer the Fishes

Spoiler:

If we are correct, they just refuse to hammer. We then have to vote them out directly. We kill scum today, Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one. (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have 0 miss shots)

If we are wrong, then a townie hammers you, and tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose. If we do this plan, hit a townie today, and then successfully find scum tomorrow, but it is the non-corrupter tomorrow we lose.

Plan 3: Ask the dragons to hammer the Fishes (then killing our top scum reads starting tomorrow)

Spoiler:

If we do this plan, and we are right, we buy ourselves SO FUCKING MUCH Leway. Like, omg, we can miss like 3 times afterwards. And we are getting so much more info to solve with.

If we are wrong, then we still don't lose. It is the same as missing in plan 2: tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose.

-----

My plan has THE BEST upside if it works, hands down. No one is even arguing this, I don't think

But then it does not even have the worst downsides on being wrong (see plan 1)...

And there are still people out there advocating plan 1...



To be real, it feels like A LOT of people are dismissing the plan, because not trying to kill scum today does not "feel right" and trying to vote out the scum does "feel right" without actually looking at the pros and cons of the plans.

This one

@spiff

Because shooting our top scum read directly is actually the least optimal way to try and win.

If enough people prefer aa9 to Annie, then aa9 can be the manatee target / our kill tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: fishes

E-3

[Lukewarm]

Has there been anymore evidence revealed that suggests Manatee will actually inherit HTBD powers or are is that just the hope at this point?

We have evidence now.

They flavor claimed, and manatees flavor is literally a back up to the dragons flavor.

The dragons flavor runs a shop where you can get rid of your unwanted shards. Later in the game,anatees flavor takes over that shop.

[Lukewarm]

If your aa9 solve is right, we will be killing her tomorrow, and you get that anyways.

The scum team dropped 3 nights worth of actions to try and win via alt win con. We need to drop today's elim to stop them.

We literally go back to Killin our top scum reads tomorrow.

If we kill aa9 today, and you are wrong, we lose the game on the spot. If we kill her tomorrow, we do not lose on the spot.

[Lukewarm]

I am perfectly fine with us waiting for Medea / aa9/ unwnd / Rhea to all weigh in.

I very much want this to be the plan we do, but I am not trying to push it through this minute

[Lukewarm]

there are currently 6 demons in play.

There are AT LEAST 6 demons in play

I think there probably are exactly 6, but this is yet another assumption that completely ruins "the plan" if it's not correct

The numbers work with 7 demons (although, tracking the shards 6 feels right)

If it is 8, then we have lost already

[Lukewarm]

I know spiff. I was actually surprised with his posts too. But you lumped me into that as well, when I actually said we should slow down lol

[Lukewarm]

My bad, I saw you posting in support of the plan a lot and assumed you and Bell were in it together

I am very much in support of the plan, so I have been arguing that it is a good plan. Not that it needs to be hammered immediately.

I made the plan

I ran the numbers.

It is ALWAYS better then shooting at our top scum read directly.

If you are RIGHT on our scum solve, we win either way - just shoot aa9 tomorrow.

But if you are wrong, and we shoot aa9 directly today. We lose. On the spot.

If you are wrong, and we shoot aa9 tomorrow. We don't lose. The entire plan is about buying us extra miselims.

[Lukewarm]

I'm not sure...

[Lukewarm]

Ceph, what do you want us to do?

[Lukewarm]

I'm not sure...

I think it puts us on medea's plan.

Or, we could choose to directly elim dragons. It doesn't stop N4 from being a 2-demonization night, but theoretically we get the deshard tonight instead of N5?

I can run the numbers. I'll be back.

[Lukewarm]

I'm not sure...

I think it puts us on medea's plan.

Or, we could choose to directly elim dragons. It doesn't stop N4 from being a 2-demonization night, but theoretically we get the deshard tonight instead of N5?

I can run the numbers. I'll be back.

Worst case scenario for Shooting CephTD directly ( and scum keep going for shards)

Spoiler:

Day 4: 6 demons 1 corrupted. We kill the dragons (2 dead humans)
Night 4: Manatee humanizes 1, the scum team corrupts and demonizes 2 players - 7 demons 0 corrupted
Day 5: We kill the desharded player - 7 demons (3 dead humans)
Night 5: Manatee humanizes 1, the scum team corrupts 1, and demonizes 1 - 7 demons 1 corrupt
Day 5: We kill the desharded player - 7 demons 1 corrupt (4 dead humans)
Night 6: Manatee humanizes 1, the scum team corrupts 1 and demonizes 2 - 9 demons.

The scum team wins the alt win con race if the corrupter unless like, aa9 is the corrupted.

[Lukewarm]

I see it Annie.

I think she should die today. I do however see some merit in using Snarky's ability to remove her. I get why it's a consideration at this point, at least.

Apparently Medea has a different plan? Excited to encounter that in my catch up.

It is basically the same plan, but has unwnd hammer the fishes instead of aa9

[Lukewarm]

i miss pooky and his pagetop counting

Be the hero you want to see in the world

[Lukewarm]

genuinely gobsmacked annie thinks lukewarms plan is an attempt at distraction the more i think about it

Yeah, I have steadily become more convinced that annie is just scum, but did not want to say it and make bell mad at me again

[Lukewarm]

Well, I think I can say that I tried my hardest to make the plan go through, and I can say I told you so in the post game. If the dragons refuse, then it can never ever happen, so

pedit: ohh

[Lukewarm]

I hate all these plans. I hate ALL these plans.

Why is Luke clear again? I forget, because I want to kill him

Well, my plan is dead anyways without the dragons, so I think you can stop worrying about it.

Why do you dislike having our target hammer the fishes?

Because, like, even if you want to kill me, that should probably happen that way

[Lukewarm]

Because, like, even if you want to kill me, that should

probably

definitely

happen that way

A direct elim on me (or any townie) is an instant loss.

If anyone hammers the fishes (and I mean anyone, me, another townie, the corrupter, the other scum) then there seems to be a 0% chance we lose on the spot.

[Lukewarm]

That plan works for me.

I would like to just say that I fucking hate this post.

Like, he did not even once stop to think about the ramifications of this plan. Just instantly on board for it.

And the plan he jumped for has a decent chance of making us lose the game faster...

[Lukewarm]

I figured it would be evident but it was “any plan that lets me kill scum and not send townies off the slaughter mill, works for me”

And that was enough for you to rubber stamp a plan to purposefully give out shards when we know the scum team is trying to win via shards?

No pause to consider if that was actively helping the scum team?

[Lukewarm]

You’re the one who wanted berserker, Luke

Strike first.

Strike hard.

No mercy.

I’m being decisive. I’ve been waffling around and giving up control all game. I finally get some footing, and all anyone wants to talk about is killing townies. So no. I didn’t give a second thought because I was relieved that it seemed like there’s even in a minuscule amount of sense left in this game.

This is not berserker.

[Lukewarm]

Not sure how to go about forcing a player to hammer us.

It seems like without the capability to arm-twist, we're stuck either (1) straight up elimming dragons or (2) having someone else who's human hammer us, and that player will almost certainly be town.

Neither option is as potentially effective as dragons hammering us, in terms of both (hopefully) activating a de-sharder and preventing our becoming a demon.

So which of those two options is most helpful to town in your opinion, and why?

Or, option 3 we can scumhunt and do our best to find the corrupter.

I don't think it's the case but the Anne claim could be a bork-crafted fake claim, in which case plans involving killing dragons could all be just about fatally flawed.

Yeah, I have accepted that it does not matter how many people we get on board with my plan, if the dragons wont agree the plan is dead.

Killing the dragons directly does not win the race against the scum team, and full stop the alt win con the way that having them hammer you would.

So, should only really be done if we think that the dragons might be scum. Killing the dragons, then killing our corrupter target is about the same as killing our corrupter target directly today. But I think that the dragons are town, so I don't think that it accomplishes anything other then making the dragons hate us in the post game x.x

[Lukewarm]

Not sure how to go about forcing a player to hammer us.

It seems like without the capability to arm-twist, we're stuck either (1) straight up elimming dragons or (2) having someone else who's human hammer us, and that player will almost certainly be town.

Neither option is as potentially effective as dragons hammering us, in terms of both (hopefully) activating a de-sharder and preventing our becoming a demon.

So which of those two options is most helpful to town in your opinion, and why?

Or, option 3 we can scumhunt and do our best to find the corrupter.

I don't think it's the case but the Anne claim could be a bork-

crafted fake claim, in which case plans involving killing dragons could all be just about fatally flawed.

Yeah, I have accepted that it does not matter how many people we get on board with my plan, if the dragons wont agree the plan is dead.

Killing the dragons directly does not win the race against the scum team, and full stop the alt win con the way that having them hammer you would.

So, should only really be done if we think that the dragons might be scum. Killing the dragons, then killing our corrupter target is about the same as killing our corrupter target directly today. But I think that the dragons are town, so I don't think that it accomplishes anything other then making the dragons hate us in the post game x.x

I think that it really boils down to:

Find our top corrupter target, and ask them to hammer you.

If they refuse, we speed elim them.

I don't see a better option if we cannot get the dragons on board

[Lukewarm]

Not sure how to go about forcing a player to hammer us.

It seems like without the capability to arm-twist, we're stuck either (1) straight up elimming dragons or (2) having someone else who's human hammer us, and that player will almost certainly be town.

Neither option is as potentially effective as dragons hammering us, in terms of both (hopefully) activating a de-sharder and preventing our becoming a demon.

So which of those two options is most helpful to town in your opinion, and why?

Or, option 3 we can scumhunt and do our best to find the corrupter.

I don't think it's the case but the Anne claim could be a bork-

crafted fake claim, in which case plans involving killing dragons could all be just about fatally flawed.

Yeah, I have accepted that it does not matter how many people we get on board with my plan, if the dragons wont agree the plan is dead.

Killing the dragons directly does not win the race against the scum team, and full stop the alt win con the way that having them hammer you would.

So, should only really be done if we think that the dragons might be scum. Killing the dragons, then killing our corrupter target is about the same as killing our corrupter target directly today. But I think that the dragons are town, so I don't think that it accomplishes anything other then making the dragons hate us in the post game x.x

I think that it really boils down to:

Find our top corrupter target, and ask them to hammer you.

If they refuse, we speed elim them.

I don't see a better option if we cannot get the dragons on board

And if that person is town, then we lose on the spot, and they actively threw the game. So, if you are town, and we have the votes to elim you, please don't refuse to hammer the fishes

[Lukewarm]

That aa9 post makes me feel lost and confused >.<

[Lukewarm]

I don't remember anyone talking about you being corrupted and luring town to vote? Who posted that? Can you give me a post number?

I think she meant to say "being the corrupter"

[Lukewarm]

My other point is that spiffeh is a TERRIBLE target choice. Like, I get that in a town him world it's his PR and his choice how to use it, but seriously, ouch.

I was coming into day 4 with scumreads on Spiffeh, unwnd, and maaaaybe AA9. Bell was stressing the fuck out about Spiffeh.

The choice wasn't terrible from my POV, though solo-me would probably have checked unwnd if I had a cop investigation at that point.

From my pov, scum!spiff would not have gone so hard on pooky, unless exactly the dragons were his partner (and I was leaning town on the dragons), so I did not think spiff was scum.

I would have checked unwnd. Annie put him being willing to go with a dragon vote to indicate that he was town, but imo, that looked more like scum to me. A town dragon flip day 2 would have almost always lead to a pooky flip day 3 I think, so sneaking in an extra miselim before the beloved princess went off seemed like it would actually be better then having the beloved princess go off on day 2 anyways.

[Lukewarm]

My other point is that spiffeh is a TERRIBLE target choice. Like, I get that in a town him world it's his PR and his choice how to use it, but seriously, ouch.

I was coming into day 4 with scumreads on Spiffeh, unwnd, and maaaaybe AA9. Bell was stressing the fuck out about Spiffeh.

The choice wasn't terrible from my POV, though solo-me would probably have checked unwnd if I had a cop investigation at that point.

I mean purely from optimal usage, it would be to check Dunn, which then confirms HIS info as accurate which in turn clears anyone else who cleared him AND proves your own role.

If we don't murder Unwnd today and the game is still going, he needs to shard an existing demon to "prove" himself as it were.

Clearly, I don't think optimally then. I wouldn't have checked Dunn. He was a strong townread (still is).

I would not have targetted dunn either :/

[Lukewarm]

I wish everyone was not shitting on my perfectly good plan, and we would just do that and win >.<

Spoiler:

I really wanted to move to Drury Lane. I already found a nice place and everything, I just needed the dragons to co-sign the lease with me

[Lukewarm]

It seems the game intends to bet everything on AA9 being the corrupter so Hito shrug.

Being a VT/VT myself makes me want to believe that she is one too.

Do you think that having 1 vt/vt would imply a second one existing? Or is there actually being exactly 1 vt/vt not as strange as it feels to me?

[Lukewarm]

From my pov, scum!spiff would not have gone so hard on pooky,

He was a beloved princess. Scum was all over his wagon

Pooky's ability had a dead line of day 3, so there was no reason to go THAT hard on day 2, if there was a perfectly good miselim alternative on the table.

If anything, I think that the longer went without activating pooky the better for them.

[Lukewarm]

aa9, at a glance, it looks like you put all of the people pushing the "aa9 is the corrupter" read as town in that list x.x

Your 2, unqualified "scum" listings, are the two people who have been most vocal about killing the dragons instead of you today.

[Lukewarm]

Not quite finished catching up but I want to say this now:

Do I see the merit in using Snarky to remove someone from the game? Yes.
Do I see why people think CephTD's role will transfer to Manatee based on claimed flavor? Yes.
Do I see the benefit in dwindling the potential pool of players to pick from and simultaneously locking scum out of the alternate WC? Yes.

But I still don't want to do this plan. Because in the next cycle of or two if we survive long enough, we will still be in Lim-Lo and I will still want to lim AA9. So I don't want to delay something that is going to be inevitable based on these (admittedly decent) hunches. The way I see it, the corruptor is either AA9 or Novice. It is a binary. If I lose the game missing the corruptor here than so be it, it's clear there are some issues with this setup mechanically and I can soothe my ego by hanging my hat on that. It's not worth jumping through all these hoops and waste more time to put us in a marginally better position of PoE-ing scum if limming AA9 is going to be the result anyway.

I am responding in spoilers, because I don't think it matters since the dragons are not going to agree anyways

Spoiler:

I don't think you fully grasped the plan.

We had to do the strange dragons/fishes stuff today, but we immediately start killing our top scum reads tomorrow. LONG before elo.

So, with my plan, we would literally kill our top scum read in the demon pool (and that could totally be AA9)
The next day, if you/medea keep manatee alive 1 night, then we would kill our top scum read. Period. From the demon pool or the human pool.

And THEN, if BOTH of those were wrong, we are at elo the following day BUT the alt win con is dead, AND we killed our top 2 scum reads.

My plan DID NOT just delay killing scum reads, and then we were in elo wanting to kill someone like AA9, and it was the same as just killing her today.

My plan said, WHO EVER we decide we want to kill. We kill them tomorrow. and the next day. And if we are WRONG, then we do not lose on the spot.

[Lukewarm]

It is taking everything in me to not explain all over again why voting her out directly is strictly worse then doing it via my plan >.<

But I am trying to fight the urge, because it is a futile battle. Convincing you does nothing. I think I have the votes needed to do the plan, but it never works unless the dragons agree

Spoiler:

5121

[Lukewarm]

I not a big fan of the plan of having unwnd target the demons. I am not looking at the numbers right this second, but I ran them before and I don't think it ever wins the race against the scum team.

I need to look at them again when I have a pc to see if it even buys us a miselim

[Lukewarm]

That was supposed to be "target the dragons"

[Lukewarm]

I not a big fan of the plan of having unwnd target the

dragons

. am not looking at the numbers right this second, but I ran them before and I don't think it ever wins the race against the scum team.

I need to look at them again when I have a pc to see if it even buys us a miselim

[Lukewarm]

is there an option where we all just vote to stop playing

Well, you know, my plan very much involves you voting to stop playing

[Lukewarm]

I still think that my plan is the best plan -- bangs drums, claps hands, points at it


But my scum reads are Annie and Unwnd. I like spiff's case on AA9, so I could see that too, but never with Annie

So I think my solve is either Annie+Unwnd or Unwnd +AA9

Annie is my stronger scum read, but unwnd is in both possibilites, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lukewarm]

Like literally look at Luke’s posting and he has consistently kept AA9 just out of his vote range

But like… that’s all kosher, scum has to be Annie

Fuck outta here lmao

I have repeatedly said that I would step back and let aa9 be the kill tomorrow in my plan. Its ay okay with me.

Hell, we can go kill aa9 tomorrow, kill unwnd the next day, kill me the following day.

alt win con is dead, and we have flipped all 3 of those people. if any of us are scum, that is scum down. if any of us are town, it pools us out of the suspect pool, and does not fucking lose the game

-------

No one, at any point, has really told me what is the scenario where going through my plan has a lower chance to win, then killing AA9, or annie, or WHOEVER is the consensus corrupter solve directly.

If manatee is not the back up? nah man. Still just as good. We killed the fishes, so we had the miselim.
Scum team has a roleblock? nah man, Still just as good. We killed the fishes, so we had the miselim.

-----

If we are RIGHT on our corrupter solve, then both paths kill the corrupter.

If we are WRONG on our corrupter solve, and that player is a townie, then

killing them directly loses the game on the spot

. If we are wrong on the corrupter solve with my plan, we dont.


Like, even if my plan falls apart because of a roleblock or something, the outcome is the same as killing directly.

-----

The real frustrating thing to me, is that no one is even arguing that my plan doesn't work. Just that they don't like it....

---

pedit: but with that bite me, I can see that the plan really is dead.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: annie

[Lukewarm]

imo, Bulge was super scummy when he was here, and then disappeared

Asking for a shard day 1, and then the scum team sharding them when they could have sharded any one else.

His complete turn around on AA9 coming the moment me and manatee found the flavor stuff to back up my plan.

Making the blatantly anti-win con statement that he would rather us vote him out directly, then to hammer the fishes. Which, from a town!annie perspective is the equivalent of saying "would rather lose right now, then to give the town an extra shot if they are wrong about me" which is pretty :/

[Lukewarm]

@luke- actions speak louder than words

Oh look, its little old me signing off on the plan for aa9 to be targeted by the vanillizer and humanizer, and her being killed tomorrow when I thought that it was actually happening because the fishes were on board

Spoiler:

Noted,
Lukewarm, vote us.

-Bell

Would like the full plan ironed out first x.x

aa9 goes tmrw. this is to ensure we have time and a method of combatting the alternate wincon

VOTE: fishes

E-3

If your aa9 solve is right, we will be killing her tomorrow, and you get that anyways.

The scum team dropped 3 nights worth of actions to try and win via alt win con. We need to drop today's elim to stop them.

We literally go back to Killin our top scum reads tomorrow.

If we kill aa9 today, and you are wrong, we lose the game on the spot. If we kill her tomorrow, we do not lose on the spot.

If the dragons had agreed in that moment, the day would have ended with that being the plan. Please explain the aa9-corrupter + luke-other scum plan out of this scenario.

My actions very much aligned with letting aa9 be targeted by manatee and promptly killed tomorrow.

[Lukewarm]

imo, Bulge was super scummy when he was here, and then disappeared

Asking for a shard day 1, and then the scum team sharding them

when they could have sharded any one else.

His complete turn around on AA9 coming the moment me and manatee found the flavor stuff to back up my plan.

Making the blatantly anti-win con statement that he would rather us vote him out directly, then to hammer the fishes. Which, from a town!annie perspective is the equivalent of saying "would rather lose right now, then to give the town an extra shot if they are wrong about me" which is pretty :/

That part's not true? with one shard already, they were able to shard 2 players the same night by using the corruption+1 shard on manatee.

It is true. He could be sitting at 1 shard, and you could be a demon.

But they chose to do it the other way. Even though he claimed day 1 to have a demon ability strong enough to ask for a shard.

[Lukewarm]

I would like to just draw attention to Annie's stances on AA9, in the context of Spiff's case on AA9 and also when me and manatee discovered proper evidence that she was a deshard back up

----

Annie was hard lock town for AA9 since Medea pointed out their old game.

Spiffeh made his case on AA9 being the corrupter in post 4199

Here is every post Annie made about AA9 prior to the flavor claim with manatee

Spoiler:

Hi spiffy, long time listener first time caller

Why does scum-AA9 claim receiving the shards in the first place

I’m chewing on it. I know I saw those parallels to the game Medea shared in her ISO, snd the only way I think scum her would know how to perfectly mirror 7 year old meta is if she somehow remembered it or was catering to it. I suppose there’s the old “well y’all just butt heads” argument, but it’s so similar it’s weird to think about.

I’d been mulling it through since I saw people claiming corrupted too.

Your theory does make sense, I’m just trying to reconcile it with my read.

AA9. (But manatee because I have way more tinfoil thoughts there)

I have a clear on Spiffeh and Medea doesn’t make sense as scum with Pooky.

To be clear, in post 4591, like 400 posts after the spiffeh case, Annie explicitly says that they think that MANATEE is more likely to be scum then AA9

-----

And then they do not mention AA9 for another like 200 posts.

Manatee and I discover the flavor evidence around post 4783

Annie, nearly immediately after this has an appifany that it is just AA9

Spoiler:

He said it’s POE.

I’m leaning towards AA9. I got hit with insomnia and spun out and reread some stuff. I think I want to trust the mouse. I think the novice discussion is a roundabout way to avoid the truth that she was demonized N1, she didn’t claim until after Rhea was outed. I’m going to think some more as the day goes on, but that’s where I’m at. We need to hit the corrupter. She makes the most sense.

It’s bordering the lines of what I can believe to think that she simultaneously knows nothing about the setup but had the awareness to claim receiving shards after Rhea did.

@medea you’re going to need to give me the hard sell. The only other elim I’d be okay with is unwnd.

Help me kill AA9, unwnd.

I’m not doing the desharder plan. We kill the corrupter. It’s our only way forward.

We kill AA9.

I want to kill the corrupter who I think is either aa9 or unwnd while heavily leaning the former.

Ffery what are your thoughts on spiffys Aa9 wall

Aa9 or bust.

The timing of that turn around from "I am just not sure that it can be AA9" to ready to bet the entire game on "AA9 or bust" is suspicious to me.


------

Just, side note, Annie was on and around when me and manatee went on our flavor journey.

Annie makes 4761 just before the discovery, weighing in on my covo with Unwnd. Annie also makes 4788 just after the discovery. And there is radio silence on the luke/manatee convo. He then comes back the next morning, with his reversal on AA9 (moving the conversation past the manatee flavor stuff)

@spiff

Re: his turn around on aa9

[Lukewarm]

Oh and I stand by the fact that scum!Annie has no reason to clear me today.

@Spiff again. that claim came after you were already cleared

Spoiler:

"Manatee was human as of night one"
"Dunn was human as of night two"
"Spiffeh was human as of night three"


I feel like that's clearing only for Spiffeh.

WTF, you think scum-mouse isn't demonic by now?

He's closer to clear than I am right now.

Having spiffeh in your scum pool at daystart is extremely shocking to me, even prior to his clear.

Right, I take that as fairly clearing, given I suspect scum wants to demonize themselves ASAP.

But even before that, the way he cased Pooky comes off as incredibly uninformed.

(^^) Medea talking about how clear spiff was from lld's clear, multiple times before (vv) Annie claiming a clear on Spiff

Spoiler:

We’re a one shot cop. We checked the mouse last night.

He is good.

I wanted it originally day 1 to check Medea but then it felt dumb to check Medea once they were tied to Dunn and the VCA after day 2 looked pretty clear wrt Medea and Dunn, and I spent four hours writing this wall about how rereading interactions spiffy seemed super sus and I was about to go all xeno 2 2.0 then Bork had to tell me he’s town snd im bad at this game

No I didn’t crumb it because *gestures everywhere*

[Lukewarm]

Oh and I stand by the fact that scum!Annie has no reason to clear me today.

@Spiff again. that claim came after you were already cleared

Spoiler:

"Manatee was human as of night one"
"Dunn was human as of night two"
"Spiffeh was human as of night three"


I feel like that's clearing only for Spiffeh.

WTF, you think scum-mouse isn't demonic by now?

He's closer to clear than I am right now.

Having spiffeh in your scum pool at daystart is extremely shocking to me, even prior to his clear.

Right, I take that as fairly clearing, given I suspect scum wants to demonize themselves ASAP.

But even before that, the way he cased Pooky comes off as incredibly uninformed.

(^^) Medea talking about how clear spiff was from lld's clear, multiple times before (vv) Annie claiming a clear on Spiff

Spoiler:

We’re a one shot cop. We checked the mouse last night.

He is good.

I wanted it originally day 1 to check Medea but then it felt dumb to check Medea once they were tied to Dunn and the VCA after day 2 looked pretty clear wrt Medea and Dunn, and I spent four hours writing this wall about how rereading interactions spiffy seemed super sus and I was about to go all xeno 2 2.0 then Bork had to tell me he’s town snd im bad at this game

No I didn’t crumb it because *gestures everywhere*

So Annie's claim is a 1 shot cop that targetted you. They made that claim after you were cleared by someone else AND because they are claiming 1 shot, they will never have to give results again.


This is not a reason I am saying to scum read them. I am just pointing out that it is a bad reason to town bin them

fixed i hope but wow

[Lukewarm]

imo, Bulge was super scummy when he was here, and then disappeared

Asking for a shard day 1, and then the scum team sharding them

when they could have sharded any one else.

His complete turn around on AA9 coming the moment me and manatee found the flavor stuff to back up my plan.

Making the blatantly anti-win con statement that he would rather us vote him out directly, then to hammer the fishes. Which, from a town!annie perspective is the equivalent of saying "would rather lose right now, then to give the town an extra shot if they are wrong about me" which is pretty :/

That part's not true? with one shard already, they were able to shard 2 players the same night by using the corruption+1 shard on manatee.

It is true. He could be sitting at 1 shard, and you could be a demon.

But they chose to do it the other way. Even though he claimed day 1 to have a demon ability strong enough to ask for a shard.

Night 2 -- manatee gets corrupted and 1 shard. Annie gets 1 shard.

Anyone besides Annie would require TWO shards on N2 in order to be demonized. We got 2 demons N2 because Annie had a shard.

It points to either AA9 having a demon ability of corruptor OR the corruptor being Naive, but the reason 2 demons were possible was because of the manatee corruption+shard.

The way the scum team did it, resulted in 2 new demons night two and 1 new demon night three.

If they did not want to turn annie (which they shouldn't based on annie's day 1), then they would have made 1 new demon night two and 1 new demon night three.

Both paths result in the

exact same number of demons

, and

the exact same number of people 1 shard away from being demons

at the start of this day phase.

The scum team did not need to demonize Annie. So, either annie is scum (and they wanted their ability) OR the scum team blatantly misplayed.

[Lukewarm]

The way the scum team did it, resulted in 2 new demons night two and 1 new demon night three.

If they did not want to turn annie (which they shouldn't based on annie's day 1), then they would have made 1 new demon night two and

2 new demons

night three.

Both paths result in the exact same number of demons, and the exact same number of people 1 shard away from being demons at the start of this day phase.

The scum team did not need to demonize Annie. So, either annie is scum (and they wanted their ability) OR the scum team blatantly misplayed.

[Lukewarm]

Thank you bork. I was actually trying to fix it myself, but could not figure out what was broken >.<

[Lukewarm]

how does being human make you clear?

It actually doesn't anymore, now that the idea has been floated around that the corrupter had to stay human to have their ability.

But, at the start of the day, medea was working under the assumption that the scum team would prioritize demonizing themselves over giving out cool and shiny powers to the towns folk. So, the fact that spiff was not turned night 1 or night 2 was a good look for him, and was being treated as clearing at the time

[Lukewarm]

aa9 hammering you is a fine option imo.

[Lukewarm]

Can someone point me to where it's explained in the rules that scum can forego their night kill to give out shards instead? I can't find it for some reason.

It is in the sample mafia goon role pm in the op

[Lukewarm]

Probably because we are in semi-elo with 11 alive.

VOTE: fishes

Lets get aa9 to hammer, and if she is town we kill annie tomorrow

pedit: I think that unwnd should hand out shards to people who are already demons. If he can split the shards like the mafia, he should do that. Give 1 to maybe manatee, and 1 to maybe spiff?

[Lukewarm]

Probably because we are in semi-elo with 11 alive.

VOTE: fishes

Lets get aa9 to hammer, and if she is town we kill annie tomorrow

pedit: I think that unwnd should hand out shards to people who are already demons. If he can split the shards like the mafia, he should do that. Give 1 to maybe manatee, and 1 to maybe spiff?

Doesn't having a DEMON hammer fishies fuck your plan over and isntalose us if scum corrupted one of their own N1?

That was not actually something that I had considered. An unclaimed corrupted player. And this is the first I remember seeing you mention it.

I was working from the idea that we were at 6 demons 1 corrupted. So, anyone hammering the fishes would buy us one miselim, comparted to voting someone out directly

[Lukewarm]

I dont mind hammering snarky to prove myself town but what snarky says is true.. we are loosing two townies..

i am not saying no but i am telling you to calculate.

AA9 said she would hammer the fishes. Annie has already refused.

So, if there is a chance that one of the most scum read players will hammer the fishes, I think we take it, over straight eliming them if at all possible.

Maybe aa9 refuses, but I think we should at least try to use the fishes today

[Lukewarm]

I may.. have skimmed that

And my key take away was that we were thinking the same things about how to use the fishes.

Missed the difference there

[Lukewarm]

The only possibilities for scum-humans who are corrupted are unwnd and Lukewarm.

And in skimming, mixed up corrupter and corrupted.

Like, I read this conclusion "The only possibilities for scum-humans who are the corrupter are unwnd and Lukewarm"

[Lukewarm]

I'll probably give them to a townread.

If your ability is worded the same as the mafia goon ability, you can split your shards. and you can give it to 2 current demons

[Lukewarm]

I'll probably give them to a townread.

If

your ability is worded the same as the mafia goon ability, you can split your shards. and you can give it to 2 current demons

[Lukewarm]

If we decide to E-1 ourselves after one more vote, what's the probability that somebody not AA9 will hammer? Zero?

according to the last vote count, you are already self voting

[Lukewarm]

I don't think that you should be at e-1 until she is here.

[Lukewarm]

I think Spiff asked that you 2 leave a reads list before you go -- is that something you want to knock out before that happens

[Lukewarm]

Looks that way. So now no one else should vote for the fishes.

When aa9 is on, they can self e1 and she can hammer

[Lukewarm]

NGL the troll in me very much wants to steal the hammer just to release us from our suffering. But I didn't do it in Illicit and I won't do it here.

A town hammer on the fishes would not even end the game. It would just kill you guys, and then leave the rest of us to try and vote out the corrupter all over again tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

Hi.

Are we getting limed? Is It finally happening?

I knew hydra'ing with FF was a bad idea.

-Bell

I don't think I would count this one against you guys Bell. More like we are voting out aa9 in a creative way lol

[Lukewarm]

Lol, made the mafia scum title in one game.

Uh, has Cabd not come down hard on the idea of Annie scum yet? Does he not hard defend people? Or does he really think there's a possibility?

-Bell

He said he thinks that annie is scum

[Lukewarm]

Ffery, I legit think it's Annie here.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like we should kill Annie and then Kill Medea if he's wrong.
The chances of Cabd being wrong on an Annie read as town is very close to 0%

-Bell

If we eliminate annie directly, and they are town, we lose. On the spot.

And they have made it clear that they will never be willing to hammer you.

So I don't think that this works

[Lukewarm]

I would be clear, ffery is currently townreading notscience, correct?

Both heads were hard town reading not science until like 20 mins ago x.x

[Lukewarm]

Bell, why did you jump to us voting one out directly, and not to having one of them hammer you?

[Lukewarm]

Bell, why did you jump to us voting one out directly, and not to having one of them hammer you?

Because we're scum who claimed super saint because we're just brilliant like that.

-Bell

You sure can be difficult sometimes

[Lukewarm]

We all deal with this insane gamestate in our own ways.

I want to trust in bork that the alternate wincon isn't the behemoth it appears to be, but if town has a shard-giver and a shard-remover, we had the tools to shut the wincon down, we just haven't used them optimally and

for whatever reasons we're not going to course adjust for that.

I haven't seen many setups where town could lose by waiting until the third available day of dayplay to mass claim. Usually it's mass-claiming that gets punished.

I tried bell... I tried.

[Lukewarm]

We all deal with this insane gamestate in our own ways.

I want to trust in bork that the alternate wincon isn't the behemoth it appears to be, but if town has a shard-giver and a shard-remover, we had the tools to shut the wincon down, we just haven't used them optimally and

for whatever reasons we're not going to course adjust for that.

I haven't seen many setups where town could lose by waiting until the third available day of dayplay to mass claim. Usually it's mass-claiming that gets punished.

I tried bell... I tried.

Which, by the way

Annie was the loudest voice against course adjusting from what I have seen. That is also factoring into my own scum read of the slot.

[Lukewarm]

Oh sorry. Bell had posted several in a row, I did not realize you had joined x.x

[Lukewarm]

I think that it is -- Me, unwnd, medea, lld --that scum read annie. Maybe Manatee? I'd have to check their iso

Unwnd, the votes are not there

[Lukewarm]

I'm not upset with bork about the set up Bell.

I can see that he gave us the tools to fight off the alt win con. Between a desharder and a desharder back up.

It was just dumb luck that the scum team did not demonize the dragons, if that had happened we would be sitting pretty

And even now, we have a path out of this. We just can't convince the rest of the town to take it.

[Lukewarm]

the level of confidence and zero hesitation in this complete 180 is very concerning to me.

See me, concerned by Annie doing this exact same thing :/

[Lukewarm]

By my tally that puts us at 4/11 people self voting at some point in the day

We’re all doing fine .-.

VOTE: Lukewarm

[Lukewarm]

By my tally that puts us at 4/11 people self voting at some point in the day

We’re all doing fine .-.

VOTE: Lukewarm

VOTE: The fishes

[Lukewarm]

Humans:
Rhea--not targetable
Dunn--near-conf-town
Dragons--near-conf-town
Snarky fishes--corrupted N3

unwnd
Lukewarm

Luke technically speaking this at least locks two humans in your plan. What are your opinions in this regards?

The amount of human locking only matters if we ever reach 5 dead humans before they reach 9 demons. Which, we could do with my plan.

But with the dragons refusing, there is no scenario where we ever win the race, so it doesn't matter.

Killing the corrupted fishes matters to slow the scum down from reaching 9 by 1 day phase, but the demon/human status of the person who hammers them doesn't without the dragons

[Lukewarm]

Has to be luke's plan OR we have to correctly nail scum today.

JUST locking two humans does not suffice.

Yeah. You got there without me

[Lukewarm]

Why not make Dragons deshard a scumread in the demons as well.

The dragons cannot deshard...

It is a demon only abilty, and they are human.

The only chance we have of desharding is by convincing the dragons to suicide on the fishes, and activating manatee, so that she can start desharding

[Lukewarm]

And the dragons are strongly opposed

[Lukewarm]

Hey manatee, even if we lose today, you and I get to go down as having been on the right side of history

[Lukewarm]

Hey manatee, even if we lose today, you and I get to go down as having been on the right side of history

Well, minus the titus read, and the me read, and the other stuff.

Screw being wrong about a day 1 read.

Being the person who came up with the plan that could save town from the hole we are sitting in today puts me on the right side of history.

And I very much plan on telling any and all townies who shit on it "I told you so" in the post game. Not the scum. They were just trying to win. But the townie. Will be telling them to suck it when all has been revealed.

[Lukewarm]

If she's scum, she explicitly has to be scum WITH Dunn, or you have to think that "hider who also gets their next action blocked if they hide behind a demon" is somehow a scumrole in this game.

If that's what demonphobic means. It makes sense, but it could mean something different.

Maybe something like "not able to participate in the scum PT while there are demon scum".

I'm spitballing, I know. and we're probably wrong about Rhea, but if we're right I hope that becomes a hell of a lot more obvious before town loses.

One of my hopes is that scum have a finite number of shards and corruption shots, and that the corruption on us being wasted before we're demonized MAKES A DIFFERENCE in scum's ability to get there.

Remember how I claimed reflexive rolecop on day 2?

If Rhea's role had language alluding to not being able to do stuff in the scum pt, she wouldn't have targeted me

Didn't you say that you only got medea's ability names when you claimed it?

[Lukewarm]

Dunn, I was under the impression that you only got ability names since day 2.

They have the introverted modifier, and they are a doctor, and no other abilities. (I can't see factional stuff.)

Like, here you said "introverted modifier" instead of trying to describe what it did, so I assumed that that was all the info you had.

[Lukewarm]

unwnd, are you also refusing to hammer the fishes?

[Lukewarm]

Also, I am on board that aa9 is just town for that.

[Lukewarm]

Cabd said hammering Fishes doesn't lock them out so no

Hammering fishes does not lock the scum out of the win con.

But, it buys us a miselim.

So, if we decide to vote you out directly, and you are town, we lose. If you hammer the fishes, and you are town, tomorrow is elo

[Lukewarm]

Cabd said hammering Fishes doesn't lock them out so no

Hammering fishes does not lock the scum out of the win con.

But, it buys us a miselim.

So, if we decide to vote you out directly, and you are town, we lose. If you hammer the fishes, and you are town, tomorrow is elo

This assumes that there's not a corrupted scum running around because if there is one then it's just outright over if you do so

If the alternative is voting him out directly, then it loses no matter what.

[Lukewarm]

I would like lld to weigh in on aa9 ate as they are the resident expert of AtE.

Also, still wanna know what she meant with linking wiki and what that had to do with not giving a thing.

-bell

I’m a liar

I believe that she was saying that since she was no longer trying to just do yes/no/youtube she could just link her character outright

[Lukewarm]

I maybe wrong, but that it not what I gathered

[Lukewarm]

I would like to hear from the dragons what they thought about the not-hammer from aa9.

@dragons

Do you still think that aa9 is scum?
If no, then who?

If you are less sure, are you willing to reconsider The Plan?

[Lukewarm]

Annie+unwnd has been my best guess for the solve for a while

Penguin, can you tell me what makes it make more sense to force a human to hammer the fishes over having a demon hammer the fishes?

Like, from my pov, me hammering the fishes feels like it would have the same out come as a town demon hammering the fishes

[Lukewarm]

Annie+unwnd has been my best guess for the solve for a while

Penguin, can you tell me what makes it make more sense to force a human to hammer the fishes over having a demon hammer the fishes?

Like, from my pov, me hammering the fishes feels like it would have the same out come as a town demon hammering the fishes

Actually, this probably does not even matter, since annie has already said that they refuse to hammer the fishes, and both of the other people you are looking at are human anyways

[Lukewarm]

Annie+unwnd has been my best guess for the solve for a while

Penguin, can you tell me what makes it make more sense to force a human to hammer the fishes over having a demon hammer the fishes?

Like, from my pov, me hammering the fishes feels like it would have the same out come as a town demon hammering the fishes

for reals?

A lot of us have pretty solid scumreads on Annie, yes.

I feel like trying to get you to weigh them fully has been an uphill struggle.

That's not what the question is about. Being hammered by a town demon vs a town human are not the same at all in terms of the alternate wincon.

You've chiseled some cracks in the read.

I've already talked about this before. We never win the race to 5 dead humans before the scum team reaches 9 demons outside of The Plan.

So, killing humans does not matter, outside of The Plan. It never helps.

Killing you helps. Because it slows the demons down from reaching 9. But killing humans only matters if we are trying to reach 5 dead humans before they reach 9 demons.

[Lukewarm]

I ran the numbers for all of : The Plan, Voting the dragons out directly, having unwnd shard the dragons, voting scum out directly, having a human hammer you.

The only one that wins the race is The Plan.

So that is the only path that cares about how many humans we kill before the end of the game.

[Lukewarm]

But again

Actually, this probably does not even matter, since annie has already said that they refuse to hammer the fishes, and both of the other people you are looking at are human anyways

[Lukewarm]

So, it kinda feels weird that after seeing unwnd attack the wine club mentality this game, then when I looked back at an old game I saw him arguing that the wind club does not have any clique problems

Spoiler:

I think Tenet and this game are definitely a case of (perfect storm) and I don't feel it reflects on a cliquey mentality at all

There was just a lot of fucking tension overall

Don't throw away your work this game to spite the mod, there's other avenues postgame. We need you here.

I don't know what you would consider a clique if refusing to dialogue with anyone outside of it in good faith for literally a calendar month does not fit the bill, but given that you spent all of the end of day sucking up to notscience and Cabd I cannot say I am surprised that you disagree.

Yeah generally speaking I don't believe the behavior was fully intentional rather just circumstance and I feel your own grievances attest to that

I'm just offering you perspective

[Lukewarm]

I really don't want to make a mini case on Annie.

I can give you a complete dialogue of my thoughts and how they've accumulated. It will be messy but I will do my best to keep it coherent. How does that sound?

Throw in a super sugary frappachino and we've got a date.

Toss in how it works with Lukewarm-scum (or explain your Lukewarm-scum read simultaneously) and I'm listening.

--PA

I am pretty sure that he is town reading me?

[Lukewarm]

So, it kinda feels weird that after seeing unwnd attack the wine club mentality this game, then when I looked back at an old game I saw him arguing that the wind club does not have any clique problems

Spoiler:

I think Tenet and this game are definitely a case of (perfect storm) and I don't feel it reflects on a cliquey mentality at all

There was just a lot of fucking tension overall

Don't throw away your work this game to spite the mod, there's other avenues postgame. We need you here.

I don't know what you would consider a clique if refusing to dialogue with anyone outside of it in good faith for literally a calendar month does not fit the bill, but given that you spent all of the end of day sucking up to notscience and Cabd I cannot say I am surprised that you disagree.

Yeah generally speaking I don't believe the behavior was fully intentional rather just circumstance and I feel your own grievances attest to that

I'm just offering you perspective

I mean don't worry the irony of playing on an alt and talking about how they were NOT a part of the "Wine club" then being unwnd all along was not lost on me.

He continued that line after he swapped back to his main tho

[Lukewarm]

Annie+unwnd has been my best guess for the solve for a while

What sticks in my mind for this day phase is your work to get the 'activate possible backup desharder' plan into play. When asked you then say it's likely Annie-unwnd. What I'm asking is either a separate discussion of why you think they make sense as scum or a link to where you did that already because I'm old and forgetful and bad at reading ISOs sometimes. Pretend there's no backup desharder. What's your goal/reads then?

--PA

I have scum cased annie a bunch of times this day phase. Unwnd maybe less so. I'll grab links to my annie posts

[Lukewarm]

@Penguin

Spoiler:

I think I might want manatee to deshard Annie tho x.x

DEMON

1. Pooky (Start) (Dead)
2. Medea (Start)
3. ArcAngel9 (N1)
4. ManateeLass (N2)
5. Annie Edison (N2)
6. Spiffeh (N3)

Medea is mech locked out of being scum (despite me scum reading them for most of the game)

I don't think that aa9 is scum. All of the meta stuff + her day play being very non-strategic, when the scum teams day play has felt very purposeful since it feels like we are borderline losing atm

My plan revolves around manatee being town, so not in the Poe for the plan lol

That just leaves spiffeh and Annie. Spiffeh can never be scum unless with Annie. So, Annie would always have to flip before we would ever even consider looking at spiffeh.

----

I also had some paranoia on Annie from before this day phase started, and originally planned on bringing up after the mass claim. But currently more interested in the desharding plan, so did not start doing that yet.

I already mentioned that Annie was my top choice for manatee to deshard over night, but figured it was Step 1 -> convince people on the plan. Step 2 -> convince people on the target.

I would like to hear what the paranoia was about, because as is it looks like you’re calling it a paranoia read when it’s a PoE read and that feels weird :/

The paranoia was keeping you out of being tabled as a town read. The Poe pushed you to my top choice out of the demons.

Mostly buldge tbh. And the fact that he is basically not here, at all...

Over night I decided to talk to ffery today about how normal that is (and to also make sure that I am not just terrible at telling y'all's posts apart).

And also, when he was here, the vast majority of his posts seemed to be about either me or manatee. Both the 2 newest players on the player list and the two most concensisly scum read players day 1.

Because it’s not me disagreeing with the mech. It’s principle for me.

This "principle" sure does line up with scum deciding it is better to die directly, then to die AND lose the fishes demonization

I feel so sure Annie's town. And they're demonized, so their death doesn't help the alternate wincon.

Why are you pushing notsci to suicide on me again?

For me, it is more shock and confusion that he would rather be voted out directly then to take advantage of your role

Also, Luke, you said something about having planned to ask me about Bulge.

IME he's usually a very low activity player and I've seen him miselimmed in part due to that lack of activity in more than one game.

His activity level in the Annie hydra here looks about the same as in the Annie hydra's activity level in Tenet.

I feel like focusing on a read of him in the Annie hydra is kinda similar to focusing on a read of me in this hydra.

Outside of Annie, I have played 1 game with Notty and 2 games with the bulge. All 3 game, they were town and I was also town.

In this game looking at bulge's post, I had him leaning scum when I had him as town reads in both of the others games. So, on a Bulge stand point that is concerning to me.

In this game looking at just notty's post, I had him leaning town (all the way up to the recent couple pages about using your ability, which is not a good look imo), but definitely not as strongly as the other game that I played with him in even before that.

With that in mind, it still seems crazy to me that if the thread did decide to kill annie today, that a Town!annie would rather get voted out directly, and instantly lose the game for the town, then to vote you

I would like to just draw attention to Annie's stances on AA9, in the context of Spiff's case on AA9 and also when me and manatee discovered proper evidence that she was a deshard back up

----

Annie was hard lock town for AA9 since Medea pointed out their old game.

Spiffeh made his case on AA9 being the corrupter in post 4199

Here is every post Annie made about AA9 prior to the flavor claim with manatee
[spoile/r=]

Hi spiffy, long time listener first time caller

Why does scum-AA9 claim receiving the shards in the first place

I’m chewing on it. I know I saw those parallels to the game Medea shared in her ISO, snd the only way I think scum her would know how to perfectly mirror 7 year old meta is if she somehow remembered it or was catering to it. I suppose there’s the old “well y’all just butt heads” argument, but it’s so similar it’s weird to think about.

I’d been mulling it through since I saw people claiming corrupted too.

Your theory does make sense, I’m just trying to reconcile it with my read.

AA9. (But manatee because I have way more tinfoil thoughts there)

I have a clear on Spiffeh and Medea doesn’t make sense as scum with Pooky.

[/sp/oiler]

To be clear, in post 4591, like 400 posts after the spiffeh case, Annie explicitly says that they think that MANATEE is more likely to be scum then AA9

-----

And then they do not mention AA9 for another like 200 posts.

Manatee and I discover the flavor evidence around post 4783

Annie, nearly immediately after this has an appifany that it is just AA9

[spo/iler=]

He said it’s POE.

I’m leaning towards AA9. I got hit with insomnia and spun out and reread some stuff. I think I want to trust the mouse. I think the novice discussion is a roundabout way to avoid the truth that she was demonized N1, she didn’t claim until after Rhea was outed. I’m going to think some more as the day goes on, but that’s where I’m at. We need to hit the corrupter. She makes the most sense.

It’s bordering the lines of what I can believe to think that she simultaneously knows nothing about the setup but had the awareness to claim receiving shards after Rhea did.

@medea you’re going to need to give me the hard sell. The only other elim I’d be okay with is unwnd.

Help me kill AA9, unwnd.

I’m not doing the desharder plan. We kill the corrupter. It’s our only way forward.

We kill AA9.

I want to kill the corrupter who I think is either aa9 or unwnd while heavily leaning the former.

Ffery what are your thoughts on spiffys Aa9 wall

Aa9 or bust.

[/spoi/ler]

The timing of that turn around from "I am just not sure that it can be AA9" to ready to bet the entire game on "AA9 or bust" is suspicious to me.


------

Just, side note, Annie was on and around when me and manatee went on our flavor journey.

Annie makes 4761 just before the discovery, weighing in on my covo with Unwnd. Annie also makes 4788 just after the discovery. And there is radio silence on the luke/manatee convo. He then comes back the next morning, with his reversal on AA9 (moving the conversation past the manatee flavor stuff)

genuinely gobsmacked annie thinks lukewarms plan is an attempt at distraction the more i think about it

Yeah, I have steadily become more convinced that annie is just scum, but did not want to say it and make bell mad at me again

That plan works for me.

I would like to just say that I fucking hate this post.

Like, he did not even once stop to think about the ramifications of this plan. Just instantly on board for it.

And the plan he jumped for has a decent chance of making us lose the game faster...

I figured it would be evident but it was “any plan that lets me kill scum and not send townies off the slaughter mill, works for me”

And that was enough for you to rubber stamp a plan to purposefully give out shards when we know the scum team is trying to win via shards?

No pause to consider if that was actively helping the scum team?

imo, Bulge was super scummy when he was here, and then disappeared

Asking for a shard day 1, and then the scum team sharding them when they could have sharded any one else.

His complete turn around on AA9 coming the moment me and manatee found the flavor stuff to back up my plan.

Making the blatantly anti-win con statement that he would rather us vote him out directly, then to hammer the fishes. Which, from a town!annie perspective is the equivalent of saying "would rather lose right now, then to give the town an extra shot if they are wrong about me" which is pretty :/

And also, I was scum reading bulge day 1, but leaning town on notty day 1, so that was fun

Spoiler:

I actually think that your slot has shaded me for 3 of the 4 above digs. So you guys are both attacking me for digging in, but also saying that I am not doing it at all. It feels like you are selectively reading my posts, and I think I would snap vote you right now if you were not sharing a slot with Notty

Even with that, you are making me doubt your slot. I would ask anyone to sift through annie's iso, and look for what bulge specifically has commented on. The only things I have seen him talk about were me and manatee. And there has been a lot more going on this game...

[/quote]

[Lukewarm]

Sounds like your PoV? I don't think Annie/Lukewarm would be a team here. Lukewarm doesn't have the stones to bus Annie, especially not with his claim in mind. Annie's partner (if he's scum) is one of his supporters.

YOU DON'T KNOW IF I KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A BUS OR NOT! lol

Spoiler:

It feels like every time unwnd gives me a town read, it feels like an insult. And not just this game. This is like the 3rd game in a row

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Unwnd this day phase feels exactly like he did in the guardians of the keep game to me.

His sleez posts felt very different, but the posts this day phase feel the same.

[Lukewarm]

Here are some of my thoughts about scum unwnd in that game, and I feel like a lot of them apply to this game too

Spoiler:

And it just feels like, if you are town, then you should have been focused on working with me and absinthe, but you weren't. Absinthe had to ask you multiple times to help her solve the Gate, and Ana also told you multiple times that you should focus on solving the game, and then you finally said you were going to, and then you came out with 1645. It is 5 paragraph's long, and like less then 1 of those paragraphs was actually trying to solve the Gate.


And you had so many posts in Day 2 before you spit that out. Like looking at your Iso numbers, that was your post 256, and actually your 110th post since the start of Day 2.

So from my PoV, town!Unwnd should have been thinking you your goals were to work with Absinthe to solve the gate and to convince Luke (maybe Dunn if you thought I was scum) that you are town. And if you could acomplish either of those, then you win! But then you spent 109 posts that don't feel like you are working towards either goal.

I am just trying to figure out your head space during those 100+ posts.

Like, I understand that them town reading you would make it easier. But reading through your iso 146 - 256, it justs, like there are SO many posts, but none of them feel like you are solving the Gate OR like you are trying to convince me you are town. Which is what I expected to see from you given the game state.

I feel like I am doing a bad job of explaining myself... Like it was not that you were upset that they were scumreading you, it is that that seemed to take up all of your posts. There were 100 straight posts of frustration at being scum read by catboi and ss + posts about being frustrated that I was considering Dunn + posts chatting with Birar and Ana about things that simply did not serve to help the town win.

I town read you all of Day 1, but then I flip to the Day 2 and suddenly the first 100+ posts of your iso does not feel like the iso of someone helping to solve either minigame.

Instead, all I saw was a lot of posts about how you were being put into a position to where you can't solve.

And you had things you could have done.

Like, talking to me more. You put so many posts out there talking ABOUT me, but none of your posts felt like you were talking TO me - the single most important person you should be trying to convince you are town.

And sure you might be hitting a road block asking catboi/ss questions directly, but absinthe was right there ASKING for your input. Couldn't you have given her some of the things you were thinking about, and then she could have asked. They could not really ignore her.

It just did not feel like you were trying to work with me and Absinthe. The people you should most be trying to work with.

And I cannot figure out if this is because you were scum and therefore trying to make lots of content without solving the gate, because you correctly solving the gate before you knew how Infinity was going to vote could be dangerous.

Or if you really were in such a defeatist mindset for some reason I don't understand.

And I was like, why is Absinthe having to ask Unwnd to be doing that? Shouldn't that be the thing he is most focused on doing, but then Absinthe had to ask him

.

And so, it looks like at the time that the posts were made, both you and Ana appeared to think Unwnd was not solving the Gate.

So then I read through Unwnd's iso specifically looking for it, and maybe I confirmation biased my self into it?

It just really felt to me like there was very little productivity within the sheer number of posts that he put up...

[Lukewarm]

You clearly value yourself more than a generic town asset as you're unwilling to be woodchippered to prevent the alt wincon trigger, so start giving fucks and playing the game because with your refusal we're in "have to hit corrupter" mode and you seem to straight up not care.

This.

I'm townreading you guys, but your reactions to the gamestate give me hives.

rt

[Lukewarm]

I guess it just feels like you should either be hardcore trying to solve OR willing to utilize mechanics to try and save the game.

So the fact that you are both abjectly refusing to go with the plan and you are "checked out" is a bit... :/

(and, btw The Plan involves the fishes also being willing to die to try and pull out the win for the town, and they are on board)

[Lukewarm]

I guess it just feels like you should either be hardcore trying to solve OR willing to utilize mechanics to try and save the game.

So the fact that you are both abjectly refusing to go with the plan and you are "checked out" is a bit... :/

(and, btw The Plan involves the fishes also being willing to die to try and pull out the win for the town, and they are on board)

i'm not going to make a play that i think sucks just because i'm tilted and having a bad time. playing to win condition is sacred. in sum, deal with it

If you look at like, any of the arguments around the plan, I am pretty sure that going through with the plan IS playing to your win condition.

5121

[Lukewarm]

He won't hammer us, which means focusing on other-scum today, but I won't be gritting my teeth in the dead thread over it if he's run up day 5.

Do you think any actual scum will hammer you? What's your recommendation if none of Annie/unwnd/Lukewarm will hammer you?

--PA

Run us up anyway. We can hammer ourselves if it comes to that.

I believe that unwnd has said they would consider hammering the fishes?

If both of the others refuse, I will do it, but :/

[Lukewarm]

Why? What is the scenario where voting for someone directly is better then my plan.

That is my biggest issue, is that it seems like you (and not just you, others too) dismiss the plan, but never actually explain why it is worse. Or why it is "playing against your win con" as you put it

[Lukewarm]

Why? What is the scenario where voting for someone directly is better then my plan.

That is my biggest issue, is that it seems like you (and not just you, others too) dismiss the plan, but never actually explain why it is worse. Or why it is "playing against your win con" as you put it

Like I have outlined repeatedly, if your solve it right, we win either way. EVEN IF MY PLAN FAILS.

But, if your solve is wrong, then voting for someone outright loses on the spot, but my plan gives us a chance to regroup.

Like, if you were to agree to the plan, you would be able to dictate the exact solve that we try to go with, if that is what it would take for you to get on board :/

[Lukewarm]

in my heart of hearts i really think it's just somehow medea and dunnstral so it's hard to get into anything else

please don't reiterate the mechanical reasons this is impossible at me i heard you

Hell, we could go with my plan, and if it works we kill medea tomorrow just to be sure.

It buys us the miselims to check for something like that x.x

[Lukewarm]

Why? What is the scenario where voting for someone directly is better then my plan.

That is my biggest issue, is that it seems like you (and not just you, others too) dismiss the plan, but never actually explain why it is worse. Or why it is "playing against your win con" as you put it

Like I have outlined repeatedly, if your solve it right, we win either way. EVEN IF MY PLAN FAILS.

But, if your solve is wrong, then voting for someone outright loses on the spot, but my plan gives us a chance to regroup.

Like, if you were to agree to the plan, you would be able to dictate the exact solve that we try to go with, if that is what it would take for you to get on board :/

i am fine with snarky and scum dying, but i'm not scum and scum won't hammer them, so like who cares

This response did not engage with the point. Like at all.

[Lukewarm]

Why? What is the scenario where voting for someone directly is better then my plan.

That is my biggest issue, is that it seems like you (and not just you, others too) dismiss the plan, but never actually explain why it is worse. Or why it is "playing against your win con" as you put it

Like I have outlined repeatedly, if your solve it right, we win either way. EVEN IF MY PLAN FAILS.

But, if your solve is wrong, then voting for someone outright loses on the spot, but my plan gives us a chance to regroup.

Like, if you were to agree to the plan, you would be able to dictate the exact solve that we try to go with, if that is what it would take for you to get on board :/

i am fine with snarky and scum dying, but i'm not scum and scum won't hammer them, so like who cares

This response did not engage with the point. Like at all.

Like, okay. "scum will never hammer the fishes" -- you are probably right on that. So, scum hammering fishes is likely not happening.

So. I am comparing the other two options:

Town hammering fishes.

We elim ANYONE outright.

If town! "anyone who is not the dragons" hammers fishes,

then tomorrow is ELO.

If town!dragons hammer the fishes, AND THE PLAN FAILS,

then tomorrow is ELO

If we vote someone out directly,

then TODAY is ELO

If you hammer the fishes, and the plan WORKS,

then we have like 3 miselims available to us.

----

And I just can't understand why you, or anyone would be sitting here suggesting we go for the worst possible option right now :/

[Lukewarm]

Like it is a failure of the game design if Snarky hammering themselves is more beneficial than actually trying to hit scum here, I refuse to believe that’s the case. Ideally we could leverage their lim by also removing a universal scum read, or catch scum refusing to hammer and instead turning the lim around on them. At this point Luke pretty transparently Town and the only one I want to take the hammer is unwnd. The Snarky wagon was always going to be a tool for me to find scum and not something I ever expected to result in a hammer from scum.

We got our info that AA9 is likely not scum (although I will still “I told you so” at the end of the game if she played us here) now it’s time for a universal scum read to hammer Snarky, or switch the lim to someone else (unwnd).

There is at least a few people still floating around the possibility of scum me, so snarky self hammering is never gonna happen

[Lukewarm]

Medea, I am sitting here trying to reason with them. That post never helps :/

[Lukewarm]

Ceph. Please talk to me.

You guys town read me when everyone else was scum reading me, and I town read you when everyone else was scum reading you. Like, we found each other.

Do you see my 5951.

The fishes are willing to take a dive if it helps town win. If you refuse, then I am getting the feeling that I am going to be the one taking a dive to help town win.

I am not asking you to do something that Ffery, Bell, and myself have all agreed to do. Because that is the best path to victory.

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE:

[Lukewarm]

damn :/

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE:

why did you unvote?

Because I was reaching out the dragons repeatedly, and I was hoping I could get them to talk to me, and did not want you to be sitting at e-1 when unwnd was ready to hammer.

But, now I don't know what to do :/

[Lukewarm]

Is there ever a world where the dragons really are just scum? And that is why they won't work with us?

Right now, it looks like we can kill all of [me, unwnd, and annie] with either of me or unwnd hammering the fishes, and pray both scum are in there or we lose.

I looked back at the numbers from before, and voting out the dragons would buy us the equivalent of the fishes dying. Meaning we can kill all of [the dragons, unwnd, and annie] and pray both scum are in there or we lose.

I know that from my pov, that is strictly better. But it would depend on how many people think I am more or less likely to be scum then the dragons?

[Lukewarm]

when you start thinking anyone who disagrees with you is necessarily scum, it may be time to reconsider.

I mean, thats not the only reason. There is also everyone scum reading you earlier, when I felt like I was the only one town reading you.

And then the fishes saying that your flavor could make sense as a scum.

And then there is the "not willing to engage with the pro-town plan" while simultaneously not coming up with a solve that you are pushing. Like I said before, I would be expecting you to do one or the other. But you are doing neither. And there is definitely scum motivation to do neither


And to be real, the "vote you out plan" is better in every world where you are more likely to be scum then me. So, from my pov, always.

[Lukewarm]

@Fishes. Would you rather us put you back at e-1, and then either unwnd or myself hammer or would you rather us elim the dragons?

Activating manatee would allow her to deshard someone, which is functionally the same as making sure that you die this day phase.

At this point, I don't really care, and am ready to hammer you if unwnd refuses. This day needs to end

[Lukewarm]

I use mafia black

[Lukewarm]

I don't think you understand how much my own post 6040 has left me in a laughing fit.

I really am my own target audience

[Lukewarm]

And I must thank you annie. You gave me a perfect set up.

It was a team effort to give me a laughing fit that lasted long enough that someone asked me if I am okay.

Spoiler:

And I might also be running on too little sleep. You+me+sleep deprivation make a hell of a team

[Lukewarm]

Hello. I was corrupted and given 1 shard, so I am a demon now

[Lukewarm]

Now you want to work around the alt win con x.x

[Lukewarm]

DEMON

1. Pooky (Start) (Dead)
2. Medea (Start)
3. ArcAngel9 (N1)
4. ManateeLass (N2)
5. Annie Edison (N2)
6. Spiffeh (N3)

7. Lukewarm (N4)

HUMAN

1. Titus (Dead)
2. LLD
3. unwnd

(dead)

4. Snarky

(dead)

5. Lukewarm

6. Dragons
7. Dunnstral

(1 shard)

[Lukewarm]

Well this sure is a mafia game

Hi

Can I get your opinion on why I wasgiven a shard by the corruptor, giving me info, instead of a different member of the town

The only options were me, you, lld, or the dragons.

LLD was untargetable

And the dragons are the desharder?

So, they targetted you and me

[Lukewarm]

Who are the remaining humans?

Just LLD, Dunn, and CephTD? Couldn’t we just lim CephTD today and LLD hides behind someone to be untargetable? Then scum can’t complete the alternate WC? Someone check my math

This might could work? Maybe?

@LLD did you hide behind a demon last night? Can you hide again tonight?

[Lukewarm]

I will let manatee answer that first, but I am considering voting there too

[Lukewarm]

Humans are : the dragons, lld, and dunn

[Lukewarm]

I will let manatee answer that first, but I am considering voting there too

Ceph is 100% town. Why would you vote there?

I am not sure that he is 100% town. More like 75%.

Although, I want to run the numbers when I get some time to sit down at my pc. But, in none of my calculations for The Plan, did I take into account that you cannot be turned into a demon tonight.

Just, off the top of my head, I think that we can still stop the alt win con if we Kill the dragons (4 dead humans). You hide behind dunn. Dunn becomes a demon. (8 demons) Manatee deshards someone (7 demons). Tomorrow we kill who ever manatee deshards (5 dead humans) - alt win con dead.

-----

Alternatively, I am considering voting Annie. but my issue there is that I think that Annie is scum, but I am less sure why they must be the corrupter, and killing the non-corrupter scum is a loss :/

[Lukewarm]

If the dragons are dead, and the only humans are dunn and lld, they cannot turn 2 humans into demons tonight, because lld will be hiding. They cannot turn her tomorrow either, because she will be hiding again.

They won't be able to turn her until the following day.

I really need a pc to look at all of the numbers x.x

[Lukewarm]

6172 feels like it means that killing the dragons today

First, they might flip as scum

but, if they do flip town, then tomorrow we can kill either scum, without it HAVING to be the corrupter.

(And possibly we kill the alt win con if manatee can deshard, but even if not, being able to kill either scum feels like a plus??)

[Lukewarm]

I am in front of a computer. Will be doing simulations. See you on the other side.

[Lukewarm]

There is 1 dead demon and 3 dead humans currently

The demons:
Annie Edison
ArcAngel9
Lukewarm
ManateeGal
Medea the Alien
Spiffeh

The humans:
Dunnstral
Here There Be Dragons
Lady Lambdadelta

-------

The million dollar question : what happens if we kill the dragons?

Option 1: They are scum-corrupter. Yay!!!!

Option 2: They are town. Manatee DOES Become the desharder

Spoiler:

EOD 5: There are 4 dead humans, and 11 total alive

Night 5: LLD hides behind dunn, the scum turn Dunn. Manatee deshards someone they think is scum.

Day 6: We kill the person manatee turned into a human. There are 5 dead humans. The alt win con is dead. 10 total alive

Night 6: Scum team start killing. 9 total alive

Day 7:

There are 9 alive, and either 1 or 2 scum

, dependent on if our day 6 elim was scum or town.

(Way better then current situation)

Option 3: They are town. Manatee does NOT become the desharder

Spoiler:

EOD 5: There are 4 dead humans, and 11 total alive

Night 5: LLD hides behind dunn, and scum turn Dunn

Day 6: We can kill our top suspect.

Elo for either scum - does not matter if corrupter or not

(better then current situation)

Night 6: LLD hides behind a demon. Scum holster

Day 7: We kill our top suspect. Elo for last scum.

If we miss, they turn LLD on Night 7 and win.

Option 4: They are scum, non-corrupter

Spoiler:

This option defaults back to option 2 and option 3, just will less scum alive. So better.

-----
The only leap of faith needed for the above simulations is that LLD is town.

VOTE: CephTD

I think there is a chance that they might be scum (and I still don't understand why LLD said they were 100% town). If they are town, they are the only shot that does not lose on the spot.

[Lukewarm]

Well, it sounds like you know something I don't. Because, with all of the information that I have, the the dragons are the best vote.

[Lukewarm]

Well, it sounds like you know something I don't. Because, with all of the information that I have, the the dragons are the best vote.

God you do know, don't you. You asked the mod the same question I did, and got the answer and that's why you're so confident.

???

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE:

I am gonna ask the mod

[Lukewarm]

Just pm'ed bork -- but the answer is very much that someone said you could not be targetted by the shards. I think it was Dunn? And I believed them lol

[Lukewarm]

Well. I can prove that I did not know that and that the scum team could not have know that until you just told them lld.

Bork told me that he will not answer the question, because I do not have the hider role, and he would only clarify for the person with the role.

Anyone else can ask to confirm that.

[Lukewarm]

LLD being untargetable is something I overlooked

Yeah. It was dunn

[Lukewarm]

Whether or not the scum team would have known directly is irrelevant, compared to both of your reactions.

You're point was that I presented the "vote out the dragons plan" because I already knew that you could be sharded.

But, I am saying that the mod would not have told me that, and that I presented the plan under the impression that you could not be sharded.

So, pretty sure that it is relevant

[Lukewarm]

LLD...

If you look through my iso, you can actually watch me be informed that you cannot be sharded, and even adjust my play accordingly. That is like, the reason I dropped my "pretend to be a vig" plan

Actually, I missed that they cannot shard lld. One sec

HUMAN

1. Titus (Dead)
2. LLD
3. unwnd
4. Snarky
5. Lukewarm
6. Dragons
7. Dunnstral

LLD cannot be sharded.
Unwnd becomes a vt when sharded
Snaky dies today
(I am me)
The dragons will never be sharded in a million years with their claim
Dunn being sharded does not matter at this point.

------

So, there is actually no strategic value for me to withhold my claim, actually.

I have been pretty blatantly softing that I turn into a vig when I am demonized, mainly because I was trying to scare the scum team from ever sharding me, and to hopefully result in shards going somewhere that would actually help the town. That actually can't happen at this point?

So, yeah. I am actually a VT/VT, and was just trying to make sure I was never given shards.

Which, btw Spiff - is part of the reason why I started believing AA9's claim. Having exactly 1 VT feels off (which Dunn pointed out), so from my pov, she was more likely to be town since otherwise I would be the only VT/VT

[Lukewarm]

Okay... but now you know that I had no way to be certain that you could not hide from the shards. So my presented plan was actually a hell of a gamble to make as scum.

I had been told that you could not be sharded by a player that I trusted, and that was the corner stone of the plan.

I was trying really hard to save the town here with the info that I had.

[Lukewarm]

Aa9

Who do you think is the scum team?

[Lukewarm]

I looked back over the options.

Annie Edison, ArcAngel9, Dunnstral, Here There Be Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta, Spiffeh, Lukewarm, Medea the Alien, ManateeGal

Dunn is town. That means that none of Medea, LLD, or Spiff can be the Corrupter

Annie Edison, ArcAngel9, Here There Be Dragons, ManateeGal

Annie - was demonized on night 2. So, if they are the corrupter, their ability had to work regardless of demon status. Scum read.

AA9- was demonized night 1, which lines up with the corruption starting night 2. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Read

Dragons - Still human. Would make them a human corrupter / demon desharder. Which, I like the idea, but it would mean that town had no way to deshard prior to their death, which is :/ . Town Lean

Manatee - Turn demon night 2, so if they are the corrupter, their ability had to work regardless of demon status. Also, they flavor claim feels perfect for the deshard back up. Town read.


So, I guess I want to kill either Annie or AA9. AA9 makes more sense mechanically, but Annie is a stronger scum read.

[Lukewarm]

No, that is "who is the corrupter" which is the only thing that matters today :/

[Lukewarm]

i dont like the leaps in logic here. there's a tonne of possibilities between "lines up with corruption starting night 2" and "their ability had to work regardless of demon status" that are just being glanced over for some reason?

luke what do you think of the novice corrupter theory?

Both you and manatee were demonized on night 2. But someone was corrupted night 2. Which means someone was corrupted when you were human (night 2) and people continued to be corrupted after you were made demons.

So, for either one of you, you would need to be able to corrupt people both while human and while demon, right?

[Lukewarm]

Both of those options would imply a human novice corrupter / demon novice corrupter I think

[Lukewarm]

AA9- was demonized night 1, which lines up with the corruption starting night 2.

For the last time. I am not corrupted. I am just demonized.

The fact that you're being ignorant to truth tells me what you're scum.

VOTE: Lukewarm

You misunderstood my post.

I never said you were corrupted.

I said that the corruption started

after

you were demonized. Which, mechanically lines up with someone who is the corrupter but could not use their ability whioe human.

This is factually correct. So you are in my "could be the corrupter pool"

[Lukewarm]

I can be on either an Annie or an aa9 wagon if needed to get one through. But for now I think I would rather

VOTE: Annie

[Lukewarm]

The above post gives me weird feelings

That's just me being lost. Thanks

Like, I feel like it has to be one of them. But I am not sure which :/

So, I could move to aa9 if you change your mind and you would rather go there

[Lukewarm]

The fact that Annie and AA9 are the two leading wagons, and have been the two people being considered for most of the day, but neither one of them voting for the other feels weird.

@Annie, why are you not on the AA9 wagon?

@AA9, what do you think about the Annie wagon? It was the bigger wagon today, until you voted for yourself...

[Lukewarm]

I am still trying to figure out why AA9 saw Annie with 3 votes, and herself with 2 votes, and decided to self vote instead of just joining the Annie wagon

@AA9. Wanna talk?

[Lukewarm]

I really hoped that AA9 would talk to me.

AA9's feels more like scum as time goes one. To the point that I think that she is scum.

But the repeated self votes feels like maybe she is the non-corrupter scum ?

Is it possible that we live in a Annie+AA9 world, and that is why AA9 decided self voting was better then joining the Annie wagon?

That was my concern, and why I wanted to see if AA9 would talk about the Annie wagon, but she appears to have dipped :/

[Lukewarm]

Notty graduated.

Also, I am sorry for giving people a hard time on the Annie read. My bad.

You told me you were going to be mad at me in the post game if Notty was scum. So why are you apologizing. Where is that anger? lol jk

[Lukewarm]

@Bork, I liked the shard mechanic in theory, I think that the only thing we really needed was a town desharder, and it would have felt more like we had a way to fight against it. I actually think that that one change would have made the difference in how it felt.

And a town desharded would not have been so much that the scum team could not win, given that the scum team were essentially giving out 3 shards a day (counting the corruption) vs a desharder removing 1 shard a day.

[Lukewarm]

And spiff, I am not mad at you either. Annie played a really good game, and frankly AA9 wasn't really giving us a very townie showing there at the end. So, I don't fault you for it.

[Lukewarm]

it did have a town desharder - manatee was what you all thought manatee migiht be, but was gated behind removing one of the scum to "buy time" via the scum elim so to speak.

it was inelegant but i thought it would work.

Flashbacks to me desperately trying to make that happen day 4

[Lukewarm]

Like for real I think after this game I'm gonna make a pact to vote-park any player that self-votes in all of my future games because it was really ridiculous this game.

This still holds true

Very much so. Unwnd self voting in a scenario that a direct elim on him was a lose, and then AA9 also selfvoting in Elo were both pretty frustrating :/

[Lukewarm]

Oh, @Titus, if you check in. I'm sorry :/

[Lukewarm]

Subject: Bloodstained: Garden Observation Deck (Spectator / Dead PT)

"Do we have a <main antagonist of the game>?"
gl w that luke

First of all, they did claim it lol

Secondly, I did not know (until this very moment) that that was the main antag. I thought they were a exorsist/shop keep lmao

[Lukewarm]

Subject: Bloodstained: Garden Observation Deck (Spectator / Dead PT)

Iconic Moments in Bloodstained History:

lmao pooky

[Lukewarm]

Is there ever a world where the dragons really are just scum? And that is why they won't work with us?

Right now, it looks like we can kill all of [me, unwnd, and annie] with either of me or unwnd hammering the fishes, and pray both scum are in there or we lose.

I looked back at the numbers from before, and voting out the dragons would buy us the equivalent of the fishes dying. Meaning we can kill all of [the dragons, unwnd, and annie] and pray both scum are in there or we lose.

I know that from my pov, that is strictly better. But it would depend on how many people think I am more or less likely to be scum then the dragons?

Ahh, if I had just pushed this more -- we were so close !!

[Lukewarm]

anyway i forgot to post this but here's how i feel about using the mechanics i developed here in future games

I hard disagree with this Bork,

The idea behind the mechanics were super fucking cool, even if it did not work out perfectly this game

[Lukewarm]

The mechanics were really cool, it just seemed like it was slightly off balanced with how quickly they could reach it. Like done said, the corrupter combined with the beloved princess just pushed it like a single notch too fast imo

[Lukewarm]

Like, random thing

I keep thinking about day 1 when we were all changing our avatars to pirates and posting sea shanties. That was wild imo

Is that the kind of thing that the "Kodak moment" scummy is for? Was thinking about nominating it for that, but I have never done that before >.<

[Lukewarm]

I did it!

[Lukewarm]

Horrible town play award goes tooo ^

Pretty sure that I would give it to you actually. Your self vote is like The Reason we lost this game. Self voting in Elo is playing against your win condition, and incredibly frustrating to play with.

And like, AA9. You self voted when 2 people were voting for you. 1 of them was scum. So, a SINGLE TOWNIE voted for you, and you decided that town was terrible and deserved to lose. Which to be frank, earns you the horrible town play award...

[Lukewarm]

Horrible town play award goes tooo ^

Pretty sure that I would give it to you actually. Your self vote is like The Reason we lost this game. Self voting in Elo is playing against your win condition, and incredibly frustrating to play with.

And like, AA9. You self voted when 2 people were voting for you. 1 of them was scum. So, a SINGLE TOWNIE voted for you, and you decided that town was terrible and deserved to lose. Which to be frank, earns you the horrible town play award...

And you logged on and there were THREE townies voting for Scum!Annie and ONE townie voting for you. And you decided to throw the game over it.

I really was not planning to say anything, but don't come in here and shit talk someone else after you pulled something like that

[Lukewarm]

@AA9. I don't want to really go into a back and forth with you.

But from my PoV, Spiff had a single bad read. And you decided to purposefully play against your win condition. I know which one upsets me more...

In the future, if you are ever so fed up with a game that you want make your team lose, please replace out. Thanks

[Lukewarm]

You got scum read when you were town... It happens... That's the game...

I was probably the number 1 scum read day 1, and at no point did I think that meant I should play againsty win condition. Which is actually against the site rules...