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FIRST

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Couple quick thoughts:

We should definitely be executing someone today, I don't think even a random kill can ever be a worse idea than the 1/4 chance there's a vortox in play and we lose the game.

Ideally we try and keep the number of nominations/number of people who vote today at a healthy split for the flower girl and town crier, dream scenario would be four of us vote and four of us nominate, but the chance of a witch being in play probably makes that worse and the optimal number of nominations probably becomes two or three.

We should also all give juggles at some point today regardless of role, it's just a freeroll and there's no reason not to help give cover.

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I also find that once per game roles using their abilities early tends to be pretty good, because it maximizes the chances of good info if philosopher wants to take one of those types of roles N2.

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Oh, wait, there is only one minion in the game. I don't know why I keep thinking there is 2. Nothing I said is WRONG but certainly "Minions know all other Minions" is...superfluous.

I'll buy this as a genuine dumbtell

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From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?

Yeah. Which makes me think at least the Demon and one Minion are next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.

Yeah I just checked this and there aren't chats other than the neighbor chats, and roles/role distribution is random, which means there's a 5/7 chance the evil team won't be able to privately communicate, which is wild

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Also, outsiders should be very cautious about claiming in case the demon is a fang gu.
And actually at the start of the game, without any additional info, from any individual outsider's POV, the chance is actually 50% that the demon is a fang gu because in the four possible worlds we're in, there are two fang gu outsiders, no vigormortis outsiders, and one each from the other two demons.

Figuring out who the demon is from the outsider count is probably going to be pretty relevant eventually but none of the outsiders are particularly great to randomly open claim early here to say the least.

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This one thinks that maneuvering around this game's roles and mechanics is going to kill it but here's to trying.

What do you mean?

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I don't think I understand the Vote vs Nominate function.

Can't I just VOTE: Player like usual?

Nominations are relevant for roles like town crier and witch, BOTC basically uses a form of voting designed for live play and not forums.

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For example: A reason someone might nominate without voting is if town suspects there is a flower girl in play and wants to get some nominations on the record to test for Minions. A few people might want to nominate a user you have no intention of voting for just to fuel that ability.

Yeah, I think there's a good chance we will want to do this at some point, depending on the current votes/nominations.

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Also relevant is that at the end of the day, if at least one nomination got half or more of the votes, whichever nominated player got the most number of votes gets executed, and if there's a tie for first, no one gets executed.

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So, to people who have played this kind of game before, keeping in mind the Flowergirl and Town Crier, is it better for more or less nominations and votes? I imagine we probably want different people to nominate every day and not everyone voting on the execution? Or am I reading this wrong?

Barring more relevant reasons, which definitely might come up, I think the best strategy for those roles is to try and split the yes/no groups as evenly as possible to maximize the minimum information we can get from it.
Witch complicates it a little because in that world we want to reduce the nomination count.

Having different people nominate each day doesn't matter as much as continuing to divide up the groups, and we definitely ideally want some people to not be voting on any nominations for the day.

But there's also a large amount to be said for just voting the way we want to instead of catering to roles that may not even be in play, so I'm treating this more as a good goal that we should try to not randomly fail for no good reason, and not a rule, particularly the voting aspect.

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If you kill Minion this way, they keep ability and one of closest Townsfolk to them in playerlist will be Poisoned.

this seems like not something scum would want to do yeah?

Let's let them decide

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If Demon created this way, deaths this night are arbitrary.

??

Arbitrary meaning the mod just decides who dies that night.

i assume this means the investigatives would get random results?

Not random, just false. So if you know there's a a Vortox in play you know that your info must not be true.

Also, mod can decide any number of players to die in a night of arbitrary deaths.

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i was thinking they could turn someone into vortox, but giving town a vig seems bad, evil twin could make sense though? idk how that would work

pedit: ? do they normally have multiple votes

Please stop answering infinity's questions about optimal demon strategy

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oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild

if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is useful

Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")

Wait, weren't you just saying that it would be random results? Or were you only talking about poison/drunk mechanic?

None of the results are random in the sense that they're randomly generated, but poison/drunk info can be whatever the mod chooses, and vortox info can be whatever the mod chooses as long as it's false.

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Is there anything we can rule out in terms of which roles scum have so far?

Not really, nothing public has happened yet so it's just private info stuff. A clockmaker who got a 15 or something can safely rule out a fang gu and vigormortis, but assuming non-absurd examples, I think these are the only ones:

-All outsiders know there is no vigormortis
-Good twin/cerenovus target know the minion type

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Oh yeah, if it's D1 now, did any night actions happen...???

Yeah I'm not sure I believe this one

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Nope, but I'm just looking at all the roles and seeing how they all counter act with each other

Any conclusions?

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oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild

if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is useful

Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")

Wait, weren't you just saying that it would be random results? Or were you only talking about poison/drunk mechanic?

None of the results are random in the sense that they're randomly generated, but poison/drunk info can be whatever the mod chooses, and vortox info can be whatever the mod chooses as long as it's false.

Doesn't it seem highly unlikely that a player could get poisoned or drunk, though?

Not even close to "highly unlikely"

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I like Nurse for attempting to make stuff happen, and Anix.
I dislike infinity and Erinys.

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How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?

That's basically what we have to figure out

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Yeah my reasons are the ones I've said in the thread already.

Thinking about it more though if you're a demon you wouldn't have done anything N0 right?
So it's a weird comment either way

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Yeah it's obvious Demon doesn't kill someone N1 because we're all still alive, but this one genuinely couldn't figure out if other roles get actions off? It seems so though based on how some roles have like "each night excluding the first" for their actions.

How much WW have you played before this game btw?

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OK, so I'm not really getting the results I wanted from my questions, so I'll end this charade right now. It's highly unlikely that I am either Drunk or Poisoned, so I'm calling it now.

I used my Artist ability at Day start and asked Enchant if Anix is working for the forces of Evil (I had to be very specific with my wording). To this Enchant replied "Yes." Therefore, unless the mod is lying to me or the tiny chance I'm Drunk or Poisoned, Anix is either the Minion or the Demon.

Ok, this is great!
This is fine to open claim.

Why did you choose Anix to ask about (specifically with him being your neighbor), given that one of the main ways your info is wrong is if you're sitting next to a no dashi?

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Well, it is more likely we have a Vortox since there is a 1/4 chance of that and would impact everyone, which isn't really that "tiny". But poison or drunk could also be in play:

Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:

Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist. No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.

Sweetheart is out, we haven't had a death to trigger it yet. Ditto Vigormortis.

Vortox is a contender, as I previously mentioned.

No Dashii is also a contender, although that puts more suspicion on me as a neighbor AND an info flip. Who is your other neighbor, Nurse?

I think we should see if anyone else got weird info (you don't need to mention this info) that would indicate Vortox. Otherwise, I think I'm a pretty strong contender for town's kill today, to take me off the board as a distraction. Then, if people still aren't getting a Vortox feel after results tomorrow, the next logical person to investigate should be Nurse's other neighbor (if anyone has any investigation roles, that'd a solid choice tonight)

Not quite from your pov, if you're good Nurse can just be evil and lying about the claim (or good and lying about the claim in some weird world.
If you're both good, vortox world Def most likely.

I think any philosopher who took artist should just claim ASAP, ask a question right now, and confirm that isn't true, and if that doesn't happen, we can just live in the world where that isn't a thing.

My info so far does not point either direction in favor of / against a vortox world btw.

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Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

N1 target?

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Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:

Do you have some information that proves Random Nurse is town? Assuming you are town, I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that Random Nurse is simply lying.

Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist.

No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.

What do you mean by this?

Agree with your first paragraph.

Re your second paragraph, there's no value in a philosopher who chose artist not just open claiming now, since they can both do all the info their role can possibly do before they get NKed, and clear up info now

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Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

If that's really the case, I'm gonna be pretty mad at the mod after this game...

@Mod has a modding mistake been made?

Outsiders could possibly reasonably be construed (not imo) as working for evil, if any townsfolk role registers a positive as "working for evil" I will lose to that

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OK, so I'm not really getting the results I wanted from my questions, so I'll end this charade right now. It's highly unlikely that I am either Drunk or Poisoned, so I'm calling it now.

I used my Artist ability at Day start and asked Enchant if Anix is working for the forces of Evil (I had to be very specific with my wording). To this Enchant replied "Yes." Therefore, unless the mod is lying to me or the tiny chance I'm Drunk or Poisoned, Anix is either the Minion or the Demon.

Ok, this is great!
This is fine to open claim.

Why did you choose Anix to ask about (specifically with him being your neighbor), given that one of the main ways your info is wrong is if you're sitting next to a no dashi?

I did not look at what a No Dashi is. I did open all the role PM spoiler lists and searched "drunk" and "poison" and only saw few options that could have possibly affected the result I'd get from using Artist.

I chose Anix because he's an experienced player and, if I can get a Guilty on him I'd rather take that opportunity.

Fair enough

I think it ultimately doesn't matter since if Anix is No Dachi, there's a very high chance you would have gotten the opposite result

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My biggest scum read was on Nurse, but I don't think claiming and voting Ani would be from scum. My next biggest sus reads are Ani and Infinity, so I'm fine with Ani execution. The only one I'm leaning town on so far is Erinys, though Hu Tao is giving me good vibes.

I'd still like to get some more nominations and votes for the sake of info tonight.

Also, in case there's a Juggler:

Infinity324 is Evil Twin
atsi is Witch
Vanderscamp is Cerenovus
AniX is Snake Charmer
Random Nurse is Artist

I don't think Ani has sounded scum at all tbh

Can you explain your erynis town read plus not thinking Nurse would make this kind of claim as scum?

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Can you explain your erynis town read plus not thinking Nurse would make this kind of claim as scum?

My reads are all off vibes, Erinys has a very town vibe and hasn't said anything to ping my suspicions, nothing much more to it than that and I can't say the same for anyone else yet.

As for Nurse, I just think this would be a really stupid thing to do if you weren't town, and Nurse doesn't seem like a stupid person, ergo, I believe that Nurse believes he's telling the truth.

I don't agree with the Nurse read but I believe both you and nurse believe it.

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Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.

N1 target?

I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.

Yeah that makes sense, no difference between doing nothing and self-targetting

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i'm surprised people don't think scum would fakeclaim in a game with no flips; regardless, nurse was a super strong townread of mine so i'm happy limming anix.

Yeah I do agree with this, it's not obvious to me at all that Nurse's claim is real, although just from math it probably is.
But I'm not especially happy limming Anix because I think they've sounded pretty good and more okay with dying than I would expect from evil.
I actually have Nurse more likely evil than Anix here but I feel like the most likely scenario is that they're both good and the info is somehow being messed with.

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why is swapping alignments so bad for town? the person who was previously a demon can claim, so we know what happened right? and yeah they get poisoned, but if you're not going to use your ability anyway that doesn't seem like a big deal.

this is a strange claim to make as scum, but it's also strange as town, so.

It's good for town, but it's pretty bad for snake charmer.

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An awkwardness in converting BotC to Mafia is the increased wincon burden. BotC is not designed to be played competitively in the way we do Mafia and as such, while you obviously aren't supposed to deliberately sabotage your team, playing Snake Charmer as a sort of "I am going to play this neutral because at any time I could switch teams" is a valid playstyle. The rules of competitive mafia, and particularly the rules of the site, make that sort of playstyle a bit murkier. I am currently town. Me converting to Demon does not help town, which I am obligated to help to the fullest of my ability right now.

What are the rules usually like here for conversion games?
Because I do think it helps town a lot if you convert and the old demon gives us the news, especially since you've already claimed snake charmer and we would know exactly who the current demon is.
But surely the rules are just about helping your own wincon and not the wincon of your current team, right?

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how would we know who the current demon is

Because it would obviously be Anix since they already claimed snake charmer. So if they swap with the demon then Anix is the demon.

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I'm not voting for Anix, I understand why people are doing it but I feel like Anix is fairly obviously town here and I'm not worried about a claimed snake charmer.

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how would we know who the current demon is

Because it would obviously be Anix since they already claimed snake charmer. So if they swap with the demon then Anix is the demon.

but before anix claimed we wouldn't know, which is what anix was talking about

now i'm wondering why it's not correct to claim snake charmer at the start of the game under that mindset? i think you have to play to winning the game not just your current wincon cause yeah

Snake charmer should basically just claim at the point they've decided they never want to use their ability.
Snake charmer using the ability is imo an interesting ev decision where it's probably good to do it initially and then there comes a point where it's pretty bad. Getting demon clears is great but flipping is probably always -ev.
I haven't seen snake charmer win too many games where they flip alignments because usually the confusion that Anix is talking about is outweighed by the demon coming clean with a lot of info and being able to have a pretty narrow pool of who the snake charmer could be.

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i guess i'm just not sure what you think anix's out would be if not sounding ok with dying.

Probably claiming something other than snake charmer

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well the point is, while you're the snake charmer you're town, so you want town to win even if you flip alignments and end up losing. i think that was anix's mindset?

Yeah, I think doing it that way is a wild way of enforcing "trying to win" but I'm not too familiar with the site rules on conversion games.

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i guess i'm just not sure what you think anix's out would be if not sounding ok with dying.

Probably claiming something other than snake charmer

what claim would actually help anix here

Snake charmer seems like the literal worst choice of the townsfolk roles

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Like the mechanical argument to kill Anix is pretty strong so I'm not going to start flaming people if Anix dies here, but my read on the situation is that Anix is extremely likely to be a miskill

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This one definitely sees where you're coming from VS it just thinks it's the safer choice here.

Yeah that's understandable.

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Oh majority required, interesting

In normal BOTC it's half or more, I'm not even sure if this change is good or bad

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Do we have anyone that can flip him to confirm he's working for Evil?

Oracle, kind of, but there's no real way to fully confirm it.

Do you believe he's evil?

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If you were reading my posts you'd know I'm the Artist that got a guilty on Anix.

I understand that, you saying that probably means that you're not reading mine.

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Great, I'm mostly interested if you have any reads from anything he's said or done other than just pure math.

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I think one or two more noms are fine

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Btw,

My juggler guess:
Anix is the snake charmer
Nurse is the artist
atsi is the fang gu
Atsi is the No dashi
Atsi is the vigormortis

I encourage everyone to also make a guess, there's no downside to doing so as something other than juggler and it gives cover to a juggler if there is one.

I'm not super confident on optimal juggler guess strategy, I don't especially feel that atsi is demon, I picked him mostly at random as a non-neighbouring player, but if I'm juggler this will give some info on whether or not atsi is demon.
I'm pretty sure doing the three non-vortox demon choices will give the best info, if for example I eventually discover I'm right about my first two choices and atsi is the demon, my result would never produce a 2, but that's not the case if I include vortox as an option or if I have the chance of sitting next to a no dashi.

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To clarify, this is not a juggler claim, this is something that I think everyone should be doing (barring people who have already claimed not juggler)

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why hasn't day ended?

Nominations/votes for town crier/flower girl, plus juggler ability and juggler cover

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My opinion has changed from "thats pretty good" to "the fog of war makes this kinda useless"

Somewhere in between

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I think we should probably get one or two more noms in before EOD

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Yeah good call

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It's CONFIRMED a vortox game.


I'm the oracle and I was told one dead player is evil.
I know this isn't the case because I was also told that infinity is the evil twin.
Anix isn't a minion and if they were the demon, there wouldn't have been a kill last night.


I didn't share this yesterday because I wanted to freeroll the chance that either I would die in the night, or it was a vigormortis game and they would kill infinity in the night, both of which are great outcomes.

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HPE should probably claim.

Fun fact my ass literally doesn't have a choice. This one is Klutz and it is now everyone's problem. Let's get down to business.

Do you have to pick an alive player?
If you don't, Anix is conf town from my POV and soon to be everyone's POV unless infinity wants to deny being a twin.

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Jesus Random for someone who complained about me not reading your posts it seems like you have literally not read a single post this game



From my POV it's CONFIRMED that Anix is good.
I think it's also confirmed a vortox game because otherwise there is too much false info.

I think you're probably good.


Do you know what a vortox is?
Because it seems like you don't.

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With all due respect Random there is a bar for what you need to do to try to understand how the game works in order to try and make your team win

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HPE should probably claim.

Fun fact my ass literally doesn't have a choice. This one is Klutz and it is now everyone's problem. Let's get down to business.

Do you have to pick an alive player?
If you don't, Anix is conf town from my POV and soon to be everyone's POV unless infinity wants to deny being a twin.

This one does.

Then pick is probably actually Random if you don't want to choose me

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Do you know what a Vortox is?

Have you read anything other than your own role PM?

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I'm not going to spell it out for you because it should be obvious to anyone who is even vaguely paying attention what I think

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Sorry if this is BM but I think you're probably good and am pretty irritated you've just nommed and voted me because you can't be bothered actually trying to learn what any of the roles in this game do past "I am good and I don't think I was lied to"

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Open discussion for people who are willing to read rules:

I'm trying to think of ways that there isn't a vortox this game and struggling.

From my seat it's confirmed that Anix is good now.
The only option for my info to be correct, barring cases that have been ruled out by lack of claims like sweetheart drunk, is if HPE was fang gu and tried to kill an outsider last night, and converted. But Random would be necessarily good in this world and would have to be lying about the Anix hit. The only possible way that would make sense is if he was the mutant yesterday, lied about some random townsfolk claim, and is now actually evil and we would never get confirmation of that. But I don't believe that's ever a world because there's a big difference between needing to pretend not to be an outsider, and doing what Random would have had to have done in railroading a kill on some random player, so I don't believe this world is a thing.

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Then yeah please target me HPE.

Don't. We have 4 days to decide. Wait until we have more info.

Agreed

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Vigormortis makes no sense as a demon because I know the minion wasn't killed in the night, so my info would have to be correct, which makes no sense.

No dashi doesn't make sense as a demon because there's no demon that could exist where my info is poisoned, that doesn't also involve Random being good with non-poisoned info.



So I think from my seat it's literally confirmed we have a vortox, barring absurdly poor town play not worth considering

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I believe Random is probably town and the demon is between atsi/Hu Tao/Piggy, with not much discernible difference between the three atm, although I think atsi is the towniest among them.

At six alive with two evils alive if we kill incorrectly today we lose, so I'd just like to kill infinity today and move on

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Infinity isn't even claiming to be the good twin, which seems very strange.

I assumed #320 was them acknowledging it but who knows

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@Vabderscamp could AniX or PiggyGal back you up on the twin claim? You never claimed publicly yesterday.

Nope, I didn't claim to either of them.
If one of them is demon it's very very bad to let them know both that the minion is the evil twin and that I'm the good twin, particularly since infinity is seated far away from me and neither of them would have otherwise known.

I was planning on claiming to AniX after he was executed but forgot that the chats disappear when you die.

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That's part of why I was pretty convinced Anix was good yesterday btw, although I feel like I would have thought that was the case even with no extra knowledge, but who knows.

I knew Anix had to be either good or the demon, and it seemed extremely unlikely that the demon would play that way.

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Seems like Vortox would make sense then, if we're confirmed to have an evil twin? I got 1 correct from:

Infinity324 is No Dashii
Infinity324 is Vigormortis
Hu Tao is No Dashii
AniX is Snake Charmer
Random Nurse is Artist

Which if we have a Vortox, means it could be anything

but

only 1 correct, right? So either there's none correct, or more probably that both Ani and Nurse were telling the truth?

The first three are impossible and the fourth one is correct.
So your info actually confirms Random as artist.
Either you're telling the truth and Random has to be good, or you're the demon and Random had to be good in that world too.

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Do we have to vote someone out today BTW? Can we no vote and get more info? That way there will 5 tomorrow

If we do that evil wins, but we can kill an already dead player. That might be fine depending on claims

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Tempted to just pick now because this one feels very good about VS and if it's wrong and VS is evil then we were kinda fucked anyway?

Obviously not going to say no to you doing that!
If you're feeling more risk-averse, unless Piggy is good and doing some kind of really weird bluff, Random is also definitely good so you can always choose there.

I'm not too worried about losing to your ability given the state of the game.

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Yeah Vortox being in the game is not fantastic to say the least but the good news is that we know it's the case, so we don't have to worry about the other demon abilities

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I'm still not sure exactly why vanderscamp claimed, but I would like to make it clear that there does not have to be a vortox here if vanderscamp is scum

I'm assuming this is the reason Infinity is denying being a twin here

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wait if you lim me and the game doesn't end isn't vander confirmed lying? i assume the evil twin info isn't affected by vortox

LOL

The game will not end because you're the evil twin.
If I get limmed the game is over.

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Yeah this one isn't sure about VS right now and it's best to get this out of the way now and see if we survive my choice, so...

KLUTZ PICK: Random Nurse

Unless Piggy has thrown, there's no world in which this loses.
I don't think this is the case if I'm evil but I haven't thought too hard about those worlds

[Vanderscamp]

I didn't realize the Hood locked down after the other player died, even though they can still post here.

Me neither, I learned it at some point and then forgot.

[Vanderscamp]

So does the game mod confirm it in the thread?

So is it like an IC?

You won't technically be IC, because Enchant won't say something like "Nurse is town so the game continues," the message is just going to be something like "the game continues" and we won't know why.
It could be that HPE is lying about being the klutz, HPE is actually the klutz but is also drunk/poisoned, or the most obvious scenario.

But I don't think anything other than HPE being klutz and you being good is mechanically possible at this point even before Enchant confirms it, barring the scenarios where a good is playing against their wincon.

[Vanderscamp]

Hu Tao/atsi, claims?
At must kill I think we should have all info on the table

[Vanderscamp]

I genuinely can't tell if Infinity doesn't know how the roles work, or if he's deliberately saying wrong info to confuse town?

Infinity is 100% lying, they know they're an evil twin and are lying about it presumably to try and create uncertainty about what the demon is.
I'm pretty happy with infinity taking this line tbh because I'm pretty sure there's a strong chance I become proven good when all the info comes out.

[Vanderscamp]

Like, the worlds are so polarized at this point

[Vanderscamp]

So does the game mod confirm it in the thread?

So is it like an IC?

You won't technically be IC, because Enchant won't say something like "Nurse is town so the game continues," the message is just going to be something like "the game continues" and we won't know why.
It could be that HPE is lying about being the klutz, HPE is actually the klutz but is also drunk/poisoned, or the most obvious scenario.

But I don't think anything other than HPE being klutz and you being good is mechanically possible at this point even before Enchant confirms it, barring the scenarios where a good is playing against their wincon.

But if HPE is Klutz but Drunk/Poisoned and targets me (Town) that wouldn't result in the Town/Outsider faction losing, right?

Yeah, but it also wouldn't if you were scum.

[Vanderscamp]

Nice so we have a confirmed town in RN. Hopefully this game becomes more clear. I'll post more in thr morning

I know I'm Town, but as VS mentioned if there's interference it could mess with the actual result?

Yes, but I also don't think it's possible for that to have happened.

Infinity is the evil twin and there's a living vortox, and none of those things mess with the klutz power.
I guess it's possible philosopher chose klutz if they can choose outsiders?
But that seems insane.
Either way you're already confirmed good for me from piggy's info; there's no way piggy got the number they did unless you're good.

[Vanderscamp]

Confirmed things from my POV:

AniX is the snake charmer
HPE is the klutz
Nurse is the artist
Infinity is the evil twin
I'm the oracle


The demon is a vortox and it's one of the three of the remaining players.
Logic for these things is all outlined in my previous posts.

[Vanderscamp]

Hu Tao/atsi, claims?
At must kill I think we should have all info on the table

Mathematician. First night I got a 0, second night a 1. I think this means that the demon is either No Dashii or Vortox.

Unless I'm missing something, the ways that abilities can work abnormally is:

• No Dashii. Their town neighbours would have to be one that used their ability D1 or N2, and one that hasn't been affected by the poison yet, for my 1 to make sense.

• Vortox. I don't think I can rule this out mechanically with the info we have now, but since AniX is so scummy, this seems a lot less likely than No Dashii in my mind.

• Vigormortis killing their minion. That would make Erinys the minion, and Infinity would be poisoned. This can be ruled out, since this would mean AniX wasn't the minion and Random Nurse is lying, and Vanderscamp would be lying about being twin. Erinys/Nurse/Vanderscamp can't all be scum and I don't think there's a reason for one to lie as town.

• Snake Charmer hitting the demon. Ruled out since if AniX did become the demon N1, there wouldn't have been a kill on N2.

• Philosopher choosing a role that's in the game. Hu Tau has told me her role and it isn't Philosopher, and everyone else has claimed publicly, so for a Philosopher to exist there has to be a Cerenovus making someone Mad about being another town role. This means AniX wasn't the minion since Cerenovus would have to still be alive, and that means Random Nurse info is false and my 1 doesn't make sense. So I think this can be ruled out.

• Sweetheart dying. For Sweetheart to exist, there also has to be a Cerenovus alive. So this can be ruled out the same way as the Philosopher case.

I have thoughts on this that I'll share after hu tao claims

[Vanderscamp]

@Mod I have some mechanics questions:

1. If an ability isn't working due to poison/drunkness, but they receive true information anyway, would this still count as their ability working abnormally?
   
2. Is the Juggler allowed to change their guesses during the day?

1. I need context to answer this one.
2. Yes.

Example: A Juggler is poisoned from being next to a No Dashii, and makes one correct guess on the first day. At night they are told "1". Would this still count as abnormal for Mathematician?

I did a BOTC quiz about a month ago, I'm not sure what Enchant's ruling is for this game but in general the answer is no, if a poisoned/drunk player gets correct info that doesn't count for mathematician.

[Vanderscamp]

I have thoughts on this that I'll share after hu tao claims

Why wait until Hu Tao claims?

I will tell you after they claim

[Vanderscamp]

I guess things don't really add up if Vanderscamp is No Dashii. If both PiggyGal and Random Nurse are poisoned, I would have gotten a 2 unless Random Nurse got true info despite being poisoned. And if AniX is town and got poisoned that means Random Nurse also got poisoned or drunk somehow?

Artist is a day ability and would never show up for a mathematician.

I think the only way I'm no dachi is if Anix is minion and Random got true information about Anix despite being poisoned, which is possible but I'd argue very unlikely

[Vanderscamp]

I guess things don't really add up if Vanderscamp is No Dashii. If both PiggyGal and Random Nurse are poisoned, I would have gotten a 2 unless Random Nurse got true info despite being poisoned. And if AniX is town and got poisoned that means Random Nurse also got poisoned or drunk somehow?

Artist is a day ability and would never show up for a mathematician.

I think the only way I'm no dachi is if Anix is minion and Random got true information about Anix despite being poisoned, which is possible but I'd argue very unlikely

Wait, this doesn't work either because in this world Piggy's info would actually also be correct because the only correct role pick would be that Random is the artist, meaning that 1 is a true result, which doesn't work because you would be good and got a result of 1 N1, and in this world your result should be 0.

And Anix always has to be the minion in that world because infinity would be oracle with a 1, so Anix being good doesn't work.

[Vanderscamp]

Oh, you're right, whoops.
I don't think that changes anything though

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: infinity

Anyone object to this?

This is a kill that needs to happen for us to win the game, and on top of infinity being evil, then dying will give relevant mathematician info for number of players getting incorrect results each night and help confirm the dichotomy.

[Vanderscamp]

Something in my gut tells me my Artist ability on Anix was correct.

It feels like was just, like, barely any reaction from Anix in response to my result.

Perhaps I am biased, but wouldn't a Town/Outsider fight back like Hell against a false/manipulated claim?

This game is all sorts of confusions, the dead are talking, and I still have NO flips so NO actual information.

You are biased, you've been tunneled on your info being correct all game.
I think I can literally mechanically clear Anix for you, so please actually read my next post and tell me if you have problems with my logic.

[Vanderscamp]

From my POV, Anix is confirmed good.

I know this because I'm the good twin and I know infinity is the evil twin.
So for Anix to be evil, they have to be the demon specifically, because the minion is already accounted for, but this is not possible because there was a kill last night.



So if Anix is evil, I'm also evil, everyone else is confirmed good, and I would have to be the demon.

If I'm the demon, I have to be no dashi or vortox based on atsi's mathematician info because no one has claimed a power that drunks people (according to what atsi has said about hu tao) and fang gu and vigormortis don't have the ability to poison people. Vigormortis does, but I obviously didn't kill my minion last night so this is impossible.


Vortox can be ruled out because multiple townsfolk (all townsfolk?) are getting correct information about the evil team.


So I would have to be specifically no dashi, but this doesn't work from the mathematician info either based on my previous post.

[Vanderscamp]

Actually there might be some window where I can be no dachi depending on what hu Tao is that might still work with the mathematician info, if hu Tao was literally the only player who received incorrect information last night.
So I think technically with current claims this can't be ruled out.

But this world also involves both of my townsfolk neighbors getting correct info despite being poisoned, which particularly in your (Random) case would be a very strange mod decision.

[Vanderscamp]

Vanderscamp do you think there's a point in Hu Tao claiming now vs tomorrow? If not, I guess it's best to give scum as little info as possible.

It's must kill and hu tao is in a very small pool of possible demons, I don't think there's any advantage to not claiming now.

[Vanderscamp]

if there does have to be a vortox, that means anix is town then right? i don't see why that's not the world we live in

i do think I have to be limmed today cause of Occam's razor, which is a bit frustrating because there's no way to know for sure that vander is lying, but I don't see what else we can do

@random nurse I'm pretty sure barring extreme circumstances anix has to be town

That I don't know.

Is it not possible he could be the Minion and lying?

Maybe one day you will read my posts

[Vanderscamp]

Does it make sense to go for the demon today instead of Infinity? If we ml today then we still get another shot at the demon tomorrow.

We are 6 alive now, so after ml and night kill we're 4 tomorrow. If we get the demon tomorrow there's no night kill and we are 3 the day after because no night kill.

If we instead get Infinity then we are 4 tomorrow, but we won't have an ml then since demon will kill someone.

Seems fine, downside is that 4 alive with 2 evils is not a great spot to be in, but it's not the end of the world

[Vanderscamp]

From my POV, Anix is confirmed good.

I know this because I'm the good twin and I know infinity is the evil twin.
So for Anix to be evil, they have to be the demon specifically, because the minion is already accounted for, but this is not possible because there was a kill last night.



So if Anix is evil, I'm also evil, everyone else is confirmed good, and I would have to be the demon.

If I'm the demon, I have to be no dashi or vortox based on atsi's mathematician info because no one has claimed a power that drunks people (according to what atsi has said about hu tao) and fang gu and vigormortis don't have the ability to poison people. Vigormortis does, but I obviously didn't kill my minion last night so this is impossible.

Vortox can be ruled out because multiple townsfolk (all townsfolk?) are getting correct information about the evil team.


So I would have to be specifically no dashi, but this doesn't work from the mathematician info either based on my previous post.

Sorry but I'm not sure I understand this part. How can we rule out you being the Vortox?

Because multiple townsfolk would be getting correct info.

This is trying (unsuccessfully) to explain to Random why Anix can't be scum.
It could be possible I can be vortox with a different minion, I haven't delved into that.

[Vanderscamp]

Kind of? Even if we do execute the demon today instead, we still can't win and there won't be any confirmation that we killed the demon (other than oracle getting a "no" instead? Would there be any other ways to confirm that don't involve relying on one of the twins?)

There would be no more night kills if we execute the demon.

if we eliminate the demon we win

Yeah but that's only fypov. If there are twins we'd have to execute the Evil Twin also in order to win.

This is actually a pretty exciting way to confirm me as real, if we kill the demon and get mech info that it was correct, infinity becomes outed

[Vanderscamp]

I'm happy killing into the demon pool today, I selfishly am also happy going for the sure thing in infinity today.
If we're going for demon candidates today, Hu Tao claiming is absolutely mandatory IMO

[Vanderscamp]

lol vander said hu tao claimed to them in the pt

I think you're thinking of atsi

[Vanderscamp]

Infinity passed the vibe check, Anix did not. I'm Savant

0/2 reads there

Savant info?

[Vanderscamp]

Do people not know what vibe check means?

Pretty sure I do, what do you think it means?

[Vanderscamp]

Day 1
1. AniX is poisoned
2. There is a Mutant in the play.

Day 2
1. Everyone read their Role PM correctly
2. Demon are Vigormortis

This is consistent, biggest piece of info from this is that someone didn't read their role PM correctly haha

[Vanderscamp]

Day 1
1. AniX is poisoned
2. There is a Mutant in the play.

Day 2
1. Everyone read their Role PM correctly
2. Demon are Vigormortis

If it's Vortox, would that make all of this incorrect? How would a Vortox affect the Savant?

Correct

[Vanderscamp]

Vibe check has nothing to do with reads. it's a saying

I've always heard it used in the context of reads in someone passing the vibe check, but sure!

[Vanderscamp]

Day 1
1. AniX is poisoned
2. There is a Mutant in the play.

Day 2
1. Everyone read their Role PM correctly
2. Demon are Vigormortis

If it's Vortox, would that make all of this incorrect? How would a Vortox affect the Savant?

I haven't gotten clarification on that yet. Still waiting

All we have to do here is look at your first day's info:

There's no room for either of those things to be true, even if I'm evil.
Mutant can only be in play with a fang gu, which is too much misinformation currently around to be true, and Anix can only be poisoned if there's a no dachi neighbor, which makes no sense in combination with the oracle views alone, let alone everything else

[Vanderscamp]

Also, it's possible I'm missing something, but I don't believe the mathematician info can be correct?

Atsi claimed a 0 on the first night, but as far as I know there isn't a single other player in the game who was given N0 info, so this is the correct number and therefore impossible since we have a vortox.

Right?

Am I missing something?

[Vanderscamp]

N0 abilities that worked abnormally:

1. HighPrincessErinys - no
2. Infinity324 - no
3. atsi - excluded (also a 0 would be a correct result if everyone else is no)
4. Hu Tao - no
5. PiggyGal15 - no
6. Vanderscamp - no
7. AniX - no
8. Random Nurse - no



So assuming the demon is a vortox, which it is, this outs atsi

[Vanderscamp]

Can anyone come up with a realistic world where the demon is not a vortox?
I'm pretty certain it's objectively impossible.

[Vanderscamp]

Can anyone come up with a world that is not

1. HighPrincessErinys - klutz (1 outsider)
2. Infinity324 - evil twin (1 minion)
3. atsi - vortox (1 demon)
4. Hu Tao - savant
5. PiggyGal15 - juggler
6. Vanderscamp - oracle
7. AniX - snake charmer
8. Random Nurse - artist


that works with all the info?

[Vanderscamp]

All info:

1. HighPrincessErinys - klutz
D2: Random Nurse is good

2. Infinity324 - oracle
N1: 1 evil is dead

3. atsi - mathematician
N0: 0 abilities worked incorrectly
N1: 1 ability worked incorrectly

4. Hu Tao - savant
D1:
1. AniX is poisoned
2. There is a Mutant in the play.

D2:
1. Everyone read their Role PM correctly
2. Demon are Vigormortis

5. PiggyGal15 - juggler
N1: 1 correct of the following statements:
Infinity324 is No Dashii
Infinity324 is Vigormortis
Hu Tao is No Dashii
AniX is Snake Charmer
Random Nurse is Artist

6. Vanderscamp - oracle AND good twin
Infinity is evil twin
N1: 1 evil is dead

7. AniX - snake charmer

8. Random Nurse - artist
D1: AniX is evil

[Vanderscamp]

I've just received news from the mod that mathematician's ability DOES affect themselves btw, which is not what I thought, but I'm not sure if that changes anything.
If your ability was the only one affected, and you got a 0, doesn't that still make your result accurate?

[Vanderscamp]

So there has to be another town role that got info N0 for my 0 to make sense with a Vortox? That would only be possible with a Cerenovus making that role Mad, and would mean that fmpov Vanderscamp is scum since there would be no twins.

I also don't see a world where your info can be correct, unless I'm misunderstanding the mathematician role.

[Vanderscamp]

I feel like because ny own ability would give false info with a Vortox, being told a 0 is therefore false?

Ok I've just confirmed with the mod and you're correct, this is possible.

So you're not outed evil

[Vanderscamp]

Lol

[Vanderscamp]

Back to one vortox between atsi/hu tao/piggy

Gut lean is piggy

[Vanderscamp]

1. HighPrincessErinys - klutz
D2: Random Nurse is good

It should be noted that this (and possibly Infinity being evil twin) are the only two pieces of information that would not be impacted by Vortox.

Yeah, this is pretty relevant and I should have distinguished.

And I checked this, vortox says "townsfolk abilities yield false info," but me learning that infinity was evil twin was part of a minion ability, not a townsfolk ability.

[Vanderscamp]

That makes sense

[Vanderscamp]

The problem is that it's unconfirmable since evils can lie about getting their role PM wrong

[Vanderscamp]

I think voting in the 50/50 is better

patently false on many levels

This statement is patently false, there are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.
The reasons it might be better to do the 50/50 are that I think it's pretty obvious, while the demon pool isn't obvious. Killing infinity might also help provide info on who the demon is based on subsequent info.
I don't feel super strongly about either side being better

[Vanderscamp]

We honestly should just ignore the 50/50 and demonhunt because reminder that town instantly wins if we nail the demon, no need to bother with the minion.

Incorrect

[Vanderscamp]

I'm ok with going outside the 50/50, but vander is likely to be the demon if scum.

This should not be an if from your pov

[Vanderscamp]

I'm ok with going outside the 50/50, but vander is likely to be the demon if scum.

This should not be an if from your pov

So isn't this a slip from him? that's why I was confused why he said if

Yep

[Vanderscamp]

Also. Is there ANY possible way that both Vander and infinity is scum and this is a gambit? Or is that mechanically impossible?

It is mechanically possible but I'd argue it's pretty absurd

[Vanderscamp]

Okay then I'd personally like to go in the confirmed scum pool of 2 then.

I think I've already explained why I think this is a bad idea and I'm just repeating myself here but:

Infinity is pretty much confirmed to not be the demon. And if there are twins, it's much better to deal with that after we've deal with the demon. If we vote Infinity now we only have one shot at voting the demon tomorrow, whereas if we go for the demon we have 2 attempts before we have to deal with the twins.

Vanderscamp is the better option of the two, but since we lose immediately if we are wrong on that, I think we should only consider that tomorrow when it's lylo.

Can you explain why I'm the better option?
I think I'm the worse option even without my own POV

[Vanderscamp]

I think voting in the 50/50 is better

patently false on many levels

This statement is patently false, there are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.
The reasons it might be better to do the 50/50 are that I think it's pretty obvious, while the demon pool isn't obvious. Killing infinity might also help provide info on who the demon is based on subsequent info.
I don't feel super strongly about either side being better

I feel like from your point of view the ideal thing to do would be to take two shots at the demon and then vote Infinity, rather than vote Infinity now and then only have one shot? The advantages of going with Infinity here seems pretty minor compared to the massive disadvantage of shortening the game by a day.

I agree, if I know for a fact that infinity's dying late game then going for demons first is better, although there is some good chance that infinity dying first will give us info that will make up for on average half of a kill or something.
The reason I don't think it's super strong in that direction is that I've been burned many times by making mechanical kills only to have town mess it up in end game.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: PiggyGal15

Still leaning this way

[Vanderscamp]

We should be pretty conservative with dead votes here btw, we shouldn't use any if we can help it; if we miss today then being at 2 vs 2 is going to make it impossible to make majority without at least one dead vote, and we really want to be saving them as much as possible

[Vanderscamp]

In a vacuum piggy is probably the best kill since they're the only role that won't keep providing info, and my reads of players don't do anything to change that

[Vanderscamp]

I feel pretty good about our chances of having hit the demon there

[Vanderscamp]

Even if we hit demon we still have to deal with a 50/50 ughhhhhhh

Yes, but I'd argue it's a pretty weighted 50/50!

[Vanderscamp]

if this is a demon there's no more nks so y'all can just lim me and vander and win right?

This is a slip btw

[Vanderscamp]

We hit the demon

I got a 0

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: infinity


GG

[Vanderscamp]

I got a 1. Since it counts the previous day, this would make sense if Hu Tao is Savant. So my info neither confirms or denies a possible nokill gambit.

Pretty sure this objectively confirms hu tao as good

[Vanderscamp]

Sorry, I did get a 1, when I read the PM I registered it in my head as "this means the demon is dead" and then forgot what the actual number was.
I know that sounds terrible and I might have fucked it but that's what happened

[Vanderscamp]

The demon does not have to kill.

The demon does have to kill btw but they can kill an already dead player

[Vanderscamp]

I am so confused with this game right now.

Vanderscamp, how does your ability work and can we be certain it's a clear guilty on Infinity?

I know infinity is evil because I was told at the start of the game infinity is the evil twin (and they are claiming my role) but that's not related to my role ability.

[Vanderscamp]

I assumed going into this that our info would help us confirm whether we killed the demon but it seems like it really doesn't


I think there's a very high chance piggy was the demon though both from the eod vote onto random, and the fact that there was no kill at night

I don't understand why any demon would deliberately sink a kill and give us an extra kill.

[Vanderscamp]

I guess it doesn't necessarily gain a kill if we were to kill the demon today at 4, because we would still have a final three

[Vanderscamp]

Piggy, can you explain why you voted Random at eod?

[Vanderscamp]

Sorry, I did get a 1, when I read the PM I registered it in my head as "this means the demon is dead" and then forgot what the actual number was.
I know that sounds terrible and I might have fucked it but that's what happened

Could you maybe elaborate on this? You forgot what the actual number was, so you just made one up instead of going back to check the PM again? Where is this 0 coming from?

No, I misremembered what the number was.
I saw the PM in my emails like an hour before I posted and had it in my head (incorrectly) that it confirmed piggy was the demon.

[Vanderscamp]

Ok, I don't care if it makes no sense because it's what happened.

At the time I thought a 1 meant that the demon had died and I was getting true info, and that's what I remembered from the PM.
When I posted in thread I'd forgotten which way the truth/lie of my info had flipped so in my mind my result was piggy was the demon = 0, and then I saw your post and checked it and realized I'd gotten it wrong.

[Vanderscamp]

I guess the argument is he mentally was doing the calculation in the reverse direction: "There are 0 demons left alive"

Huuuuuuuuuuh?

Oracle counts dead scum, not alive demons. So Vanderscamp not only forgot the number they got in their PM, but also what their role does, while also somehow having incorrectly concluded that PiggyGal must be demon from their pov?

I didn't forget what my role does.

I woke up and looked at my emails and saw a result that in my mind thought made piggy the demon, which was wrong.

About an hour later I posted in the thread and since during N1 I got a 1 result that confirmed Anix was NOT the demon, I had it in my mind that the numbers were flipped and I had gotten a 0.
I didn't remember what the number was but I remembered what I thought it had meant.

[Vanderscamp]

Like I can understand not liking that, I know I fucked up by not checking, but instead of voting me I want you to tell me what you think my evil team is.

[Vanderscamp]

Also, if I'm evil, there's no evil twin in play and there's some other minion, right?

What do you think the minion is, and why would an evil team that includes me sink a kill last night?

[Vanderscamp]

I think if the demon isn't piggy it's atsi because I don't think I buy reading me as scum here

[Vanderscamp]

I woke up and looked at my emails and saw a result that in my mind thought made piggy the demon, which was wrong.

Could you explain the thought process that lead you to that conclusion?

I've already tried as hard as I can to.

Can you answer my questions?

[Vanderscamp]

I think if the demon isn't piggy it's atsi because I don't think I buy reading me as scum here

Your information literally confirms you as scum, and then upon realizing this you try to change it. Forgetting a single digit number that can only be a 0 or a 1 after just an hour just seems very unlikely to me.

Believe it or not I wasn't spending that entire hour thinking about the game.

I also don't see a number and think "ok wow that's an interesting number, I remember this because that's the number", I remember it because of the information that it gives me from the number and what that means, and I had it wrong.

Also, if I'm evil, there's no evil twin in play and there's some other minion, right?

What do you think the minion is, and why would an evil team that includes me sink a kill last night?

Answer this please

[Vanderscamp]

I think the fact that there was no kill last night should be borderline clearing for me because if I'm evil, it gains town a kill, but it doesn't necessarily with me being real.

[Vanderscamp]

It's five alive today so there's no mylo the next day.

Who do you think the demon is, and who and what do you think the minion is, and why is going for a sunk kill a better play?

I want you to give me an actual world because you pushing on only this without giving a cohesive team is extremely scummy

[Vanderscamp]

Like, I agree with you that me giving the wrong number SHOULD be scummy.

If it were Random taking this line and not focusing on anything else that's one thing but I expect differently from you.

[Vanderscamp]

Oh boy. I have a juicy savant today.

1. There is four Townsfolk alive.
2. Atsi and Random Nurse are not aligned

Ok, interesting.


If vortox is still alive:

1. There is four Townsfolk alive. FALSE
2. Atsi and Random Nurse are not aligned FALSE

This means the minion is also alive and Atsi/Random are the same alignment, which is necessarily good.

So atsi is now confirmed good.



If vortox is not alive:

1. There is four Townsfolk alive.
2. Atsi and Random Nurse are not aligned

I'm confirmed good since the game isn't over, infinity is confirmed evil, there are four townsfolk alive, and Atsi and Random are aligned so 1) is true and 2) is false.


That fits.



You could still be the demon lying about their info, but this at least confirms atsi as good (and not demon)

[Vanderscamp]

If infinity does not end the game I'll be shocked btw

I don't see any world where hu tao sinks a kill and then confirms the only other demon candidate from my pov as town

[Vanderscamp]

I really don't think it's Hu Tao, so I guess I'm fine with executing Infinity now and then Vanderscamp tomorrow if the game hasn't ended.

I agree, I think the game just ends with infinity.

Not just because of a town read on hu tao, but also because piggy has been independently scummy.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Infinity324

[Vanderscamp]

gonna be real with you guys this game makes no fucking sense anymore lmao

THIS.

I am SO confused. I've got NO flips, the dead are talking, I've got NOTHING but my result on Anix, and apparently that may or may not be reliable due to other abilities in play.

FFS I just need something tangible to work with here. Otherwise it's Day 1 all fucking game.

It's not D1 for the people that are aware of what's going on.

How can we format the information to you in a way that you will read it?

[Vanderscamp]

I'm not lost, the game is pretty easy from my POV.

The minion is infinity the evil twin.

The demon is either piggy or hu tao, and I suspect it was piggy because of both reads and the fact that there was no death last night.
Everyone else is good.


The other worlds don't make a lot of sense IMO but the actual possibilities from my pov are pretty straightforward.

[Vanderscamp]

With your savant info today specifically, your second statement about atsi is definitely false (making him good) and the other thing could go either way depending on if vortox is alive (although if that's the case, from my pov it now has to be you and it's not actually "info")

[Vanderscamp]

So does anyone have a problem with the "vote Infinity today, Vanderscamp tomorrow" plan? I think from everyone's pov the only way we lose with that plan is if Hu Tao is the demon and Vanderscamp is a minion other than Evil Twin.

I obviously don't like the "lim me for the loss" part of the plan.

And this isn't accurate, Hu Tao demon / infinity evil twin is a possible world and the true world if infinity doesn't end it.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: end the day

[Vanderscamp]

Oh boy. I have a juicy savant today.

1. There is four Townsfolk alive.
2. Atsi and Random Nurse are not aligned

If both these are false doesn't that mean there is 3 town alive?

Yeah, what your first piece of info basically says is that if the demon is alive, the minion is too.
Which isn't helpful from my pov but does help objectively eliminate some worlds.

There's no world where the 2nd piece of info can be true either way.

[Vanderscamp]

Oh nevermind Demon is forced to kill. They can't no kill. And if vortox is dead one has to be true.

They can kill a dead player.

[Vanderscamp]

I'm pretty set on killing infinity here

[Vanderscamp]

Infinity is not town though.

You can read me however you want but it doesn't make any sense for a team of HT/me to sink a kill last night and then clear Atsi.

[Vanderscamp]

That's where I'm at too

[Vanderscamp]

I mean from a kill count pov it doesn't really matter, but if the game continues after infinity then it's proven that the demon is still alive regardless.

[Vanderscamp]

Kinda worried that scum will tie the vote. So I will wait until it's 4/5 before voting to end day.

Hu Tao, vote infinity?

[Vanderscamp]

Kinda worried that scum will tie the vote. So I will wait until it's 4/5 before voting to end day.

Hu tao is the only person who can win this way from my pov, if piggy was vortox then the win the game with no kill thing is no longer in effect.
So if hu Tao votes infinity there's no way for scum to game it

[Vanderscamp]

It's also preventable by forcing the possible scum to be the ones to initially vote to end the day I suppose

[Vanderscamp]

GG

Sorry town that the game was impossible to solve since the correct evil team became mechanically impossible.

Sorry piggy for my horrendous oracle number slip!

[Vanderscamp]

Also, the possibility of two evils being able to snipe two votes somewhere end of day and win via tie is just super super strong. I guess it's not game breaking if goods work around it but it also feels very hard to kill evils if you need a three vote buffer

[Vanderscamp]

Thanks for running Enchant!

[Vanderscamp]

You've never played in games with godfathers?

[Vanderscamp]

Maybe bus drivers are not a thing either