Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[The Fonz]

Hi guys. Will get caught up tonight.

[The Fonz]

I'm as far as page 8, and I've got this to say...

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, SHEA, STOP SAYING EVERY SINGLE THING I THINK! It's making it very difficult to come up with an original point when every time I think 'that seems off' you point out that exact thing five or six posts later.

As of so far, Izzy's clear reluctance to comment on the single biggest event in the game is the biggest scumlead. I'm not doing the vote as you go along thing, though.

[The Fonz]

It was the dahill wagon. You then responded to it in your first post after Shea points this out. I certainly don't like your leaving your vote on a lurker who is obviously not going to be lynched this late in the day.

I have a strong scum feeling about Shanba. It strikes me that optimal scum play for a 'name' player would be to be in the Shea (ok not recently)/Korts/Cody group in terms of activity, but to slip in a little bit more IIoA than they are doing. He looks and sounds the part, but I don't get the feeling of a sincere attempt to find scum.

That said, if he's scum he could well be bussing (ksun not in significant danger for most of the time he's been sitting there, as a target he feels a little bit arbitrary) and ksun is a decent enough target on his own- he's at least as guilty as mipe of all the things you are on mipe for, but he's made less effort to draw everyone's attention to how bad he's been. So I think I'm going to endorse the only remotely viable counterwagon, and also state that anyone who's a lone vote, and leaves it there, is likely to shoot up my scumrankings. Endorse one or other please, even as a less worse option.

Vote: ksun482

[The Fonz]

*Note: the mipe wagon is a little bit poor imho, and likely has scum on it, but it's not nearly so horrible that i'd prefer a nolynch.

[The Fonz]

It was the dahill wagon. You then responded to it in your first post after Shea points this out. I certainly don't like your leaving your vote on a lurker who is obviously not going to be lynched this late in the day.

Would you prefer I wasn't voting for anybody?

Obviously not, and this is a silly strawman. If I'm suspicious of you for wasting your vote on something that's not going to cause a lynch, i'd be even more suspicious of you wasting your vote on something that by definition can't cause a lynch.

What I imagine the correct protown play to be, once you realised you weren't going to get SL lynched today, would have been to look at all the other votes anyone else was pushing, and see which one you could get behind and attempt to drum up a wagon for. By leaving it as a sole vote on a lurker, there's very little there to glean- you can't even interrogate her to provide info for future days, because she isn't here.

Same problem I had with Shanba- I'd expect a decent player such as him, when he realised he didn't like the leading wagon, to make a concerted effort to push a counterwagon, not just go, 'Oh, i guess i should be voting,' vote someone, and leave it there.

[The Fonz]

There's plenty of time left. There's no need to get desperate for a lynch yet. Thus, my vote is on the person I believe to be scummiest. If it wasn't on SL, it'd be on no lynch until we get desperate enough that any lynch will do.

Uh, Izzy, there's five days until deadline. You've spent a couple of weeks talking about how SpringLullaby needs to die. Not one person has joined you on that wagon. What you're doing here is hiding behind what ethicists call 'Integrity of the person' - that is, you're happy enough for mipe to go down, but you don't want to get your own hands dirty doing it. Therefore, you'll park your vote somewhere where it clearly isn't doing any good. Springlullaby has not posted in THREE WEEKS. That's clearly not lurking, that's 'She's gone inactive and is going to be replaced.'

Meanwhile, you'll wait it out until, in your own words, 'We're so desperate for a lynch that any lynch will do' and you can shift to mipe without anyone blaming you for it, because it's desperate and the alternative to mipe is nolynch.

What are you trying to achieve, Izzy? You're clearly on record as disapproving of SL's distaste for the low-information part of day one. You have the possibility of making a choice between two wagons, something which will lead to the generation of actual information. But you choose to, basically, active lurk instead. There's a stage between 'No time pressure at all, vote whoever you think is scummiest' and 'so desperate, any lynch will do.' That stage is 'vote the best viable wagon.'

@ Quag: as above, although at least your vote is, in itself, better than Izzy's. You've made your point. But you've convinced no-one in several weeks. There's no way you're going to convince nine people in five days.

[The Fonz]

What are you trying to achieve, Izzy?

A good lynch for the town.

If that's true, you've chosen a very ineffective way of going about it.

There's a stage between 'No time pressure at all, vote whoever you think is scummiest' and 'so desperate, any lynch will do.' That stage is 'vote the best viable wagon.'

No.[/quote]

Yes, yes, a million times yes.

I also think you case on Izzy is built on a house of cards.

How so? You said I was 'probably right' about a Korts lynch being unviable. An SL lynch is almost certainly even more unviable. Plus, Izzy left her vote there when it was obvious SL had flaked from the game and was going to be replaced. At which point, it makes little sense to leave a vote there (it can't create any pressure, and there's no reason to think that the replacement is going to lurk) unless you're unusually sure the target is scum. And yet, if that's the case, you don't immediately unvote the replacement.

If you have one big wagon, and several one-man wagons close to deadline, the big wagon is going to be a default lynch. Default lynches are one of the worst things that can happen on a day one in terms of settting the town up for the rest of the game.

I mean, am I completely off-base in thinking that leaving your vote on a wagon you know to be unviable is a form of active lurking? Town needs to compromise sometimes and be willing to take a good lynch rather than an optimal one. Otherwise, you get a bad one.

That said, Izzy's response feels like what I'd call 'huffy town.' It reminds me a lot of ShadowGirl's play in this game- a stubborn town player lacking empathy and completely unable to see why it is completely reasonable to characterise her behaviour as antitown.

@RichardGHP: You said 'Scum typically don't play like Korts.' In what ways does Korts' play differ from that of what you would expect scum to do here?

[The Fonz]

So I think I'm going to endorse the only remotely viable counterwagon

Pretty sure RichardGHP was and still is an equally viable counterwagon. I don't think it's a good wagon, but it does exist. You should probably acknowledge that.

Unvote, Vote: ksun

Best of some mediocre choices, I guess.

You're quite right. When I looked at the VC on replacing in, I thought it was mipe eight, ksun two, and all the rest were loners. But having checked, there were two on Richard as well, and since that's gathered a little steam I suppose it's viable as well.

Why do you dislike the Richard wagon?

@ Everyone on mipe: who is scummier- Richard or Ksun?

[The Fonz]

Don't you think it could be just as viable that Izzy firmly believes that SL is scum, and is too stubborn and proud about it to change her mind otherwise? What you're saying might be true if we're talking about anti-town ways to think about the game, but I really don't think a scum Izzy would be so adamant on lynching SL when she had a fairly decent case on him in the first place. In other words, she's a stubborn townie IMO.

I think 'proud and stubborn' is pretty much precisely what I mean when I say 'huffy town.' But even if you're dead set someone is scum, leaving a vote on an inactive is useless. I very much considered the possibility of tunnelling town. But Izzy's immediate unvote of Yos upon his entry does not, to me, say that she was utterly convinced his slot was scum.

Your problem is Fonz you tend to conflate anti-town and scummy, when they're two totally separate entities.

All antitown actions are at least slightly scummy, but that's a point we've been going at for years in MD and I don't expect anything i say here to change your view. Suffice to say, it isn't a problem, i just see it as obvious logic. If someone harms the town, there's always a chance they're doing it because

they're trying to harm the town.

To me, Izzy leaving her vote on the flaker is so obviously suboptimal it seems odd that its suboptimality would not occur to an Izzy trying to help the town.

Furthermore, if you believe antitown isn't scummy, then the obvious conclusion is that SL said she wouldn't respond to the thread until something interesting happened

because her personality/playstyle makes her particularly dislike the low-info stage.

A reasonable player would conclude that the likelihood of people wanting to lynch you for saying something so antitown would make it a very dangerous thing to do as a deliberate tactic, but the sort of thing that might well arise from personality- a strong dislike for/boredom with the early part of games. On the other hand, the early part of the game is probably the time when it least benefits scum to lurk. That's certainly my read- very antitown but in context of very limited scumminess.

In short, it ought to be the poster child for 'antitown but not scummy' if such a thing existed- its scumminess clearly lies in its antitownness. The fact that, in that situation, you think Izzy had a 'good case' raises certain red flags. (As does the fact that, in her last post, SL appears to have started playing, with a relevant comment and a vote).

And FYI of course you're off-base when you say that voting for someone you know won't get lynched is a form of active lurking. That's absurd.

It strikes me as the complete opposite of absurd- self-evident. By tunnelling on an inactive, you can avoid comment on other players, or involvement in an actual lynch that might make you look scummy.

[The Fonz]

Right, but in that case, why not unvote when it was obvious she was getting replaced, ie probably about ten days after she last posted? That still leaves 'leaving your vote on someone who had clearly flaked' which is what i have the problem with in the first place.

[The Fonz]

Part of the difficulty I'm having here is that all of mipe, FFFF, ksun and Richard are pretty raw newbies (I don't think any of them have more than one or two completed games) who could just have a bad playstyle/be playing badly. I policy lynch because I usually find it incredibly difficult to spot the one with the scum motivations from the ones who are just poor players. And here, there's not a lot between them, apart from that the mipe wagon just feels wrong and defaulty.

Now, the explanation I've owed Shanba for a while.

Fonz: you say I should have been pushing the next most viable wagon; which wagon might that be?

I said nothing of the sort in regard to you specifically. What I said was that I felt your choice of ksun was somewhat arbitrary, and that when you decided the mipe wagon was bad, you didn't bust a gut trying to convince people to leave it, and join you on ksun: you were very casual about it, hence:

Actually, there's no reason not to vote.

]mipe was the only badwagon of any size at that point; the dahill wagon had exaporated and no one else had more than one vote. I don't think it was unreasonable of me to start another wagon. Since it's now up to four in fairly short order, I'm not sure I needed to do more to push the wagon. I'm slightly aggrieved to be accused of information instead of analysis: can you point to specific instances of that in this game?

Oh, that's hokey. I expect players who are a) good [which you are] and b) town, when they don't like a wagon, to make a strong and sincere effort to talk people off of it. With you, I felt like you were going through the motions of trying to push an alternative wagon, without actually putting genuine pressure on those on it to move off, or those on lonewagons to join you. The fact that inHim and I joined the wagon subsequently because it appeared to be basically the only option does not retroactively excuse your earlier passivity.

As for IIoA: in particular, look at the third paragraph of your ISO 14, ISOs 15, 19, and 20. I'm not by any means saying your output lacks

any

content, or is

largely

IIoA- but there is some there, in comparison with, say, Quag, who appears fixated on scumhunting, attacking anything he finds slightly off, etc.

It's what I call differentiated scumhunting. Scum don't want to draw attention to themselves; they also don't want to be seen

trying

not to draw attention to themselves. Your activity level is such that most players wouldn't criticise you for it; but I don't feel that you've had the impact on the game you could have done if you really wanted to.

If Shea really is gone, then I'm absolutely furious about that. There were a number of things I wanted him to comment on and him in particular to comment on. Now I won't get that opportunity? Grrr.

Hear you on that. I replaced in here SPECIFICALLY because I wanted to play with Shea.

[The Fonz]

I'm thinking of a possible scum group effort to steer away from mipe's lynch.

Nuh-uh. You don't just sling mud at a large group of people like that. (Not to mention that, it's my instinct that if mipe were scum, he would probably have been bussed to death during the fairly long period when he looked like the only game in town, specifically after he claimed townie). WHO on the ksun wagon looks like they are trying to protect a buddy? Is the same true of the Richard wagon? If not, why not?

[The Fonz]

I don't think VaVa was "mudslinging" a large group of people. I read it as he wants us to play closer attention to the mipe wagon, and find individuals within that subset. I think this is an excellent, town-motivated idea.
.

Doing it yourself might be an 'excellent, town-motivated' idea. Telling other people to do it is not.

[The Fonz]

He's not talking about the mipewagon, he's accusing the ksun wagon as being an attempt to chainsaw defend mipe.

Incidentally, the whole chainsaw defence 'tell' remains retarded.

[The Fonz]

@Izzy: Who is optimal then? Yos2, or someone else?

ksun should claim if there's anything in his locker that might save him.

[The Fonz]

Richard, Yos' case against you isn't unreasonable. And your responses are basically 'nuh-ah.' If you want to be useful, try to get past the OMGUS instinct.

Still here, still want ksun dead.

[The Fonz]

Yos is clearly tunnelling, or faking tunnelling. I don't think his 'looks like a bus' argument is particularly compelling, since if you're the second wagon, self-preservation is always sufficient to make you want the leading one as far ahead of your own as possible. He's also ignoring something he usually picks up as town- being the main counterwagon to a scum lynch always makes you at least somewhat more likely to be town. That said, instinctively, this does not feel like Yosscum. Specifically, his forlorn cavalry charge to lynch Richard feels like the sort of thing town Yos does.

As for nightkill wifom, I do think the following:

A) I don't think the Korts kill was the work of a scum Quag. After all, most of the heat in the Quag-Korts exchange came from Quag's direction, and Korts only really started attacking Quag later in what looks like quite an instinctive countervote. I think the most plausible explanations are (A) Protect FFFF, etc and B) Frame Quag. C) Hunt for power is possible, since he was one, though I don't recall any obvious crumbs- then again, i wasn't on the lookout for 'em.

B) Sorasgoof is most likely the work of a pie disciple, SK trying to look like a vig, or rival scumteam attempting a crosskill.

I'm a lot more comfortable with Izzy now- her actions around the lynch really do feel like she preferred a mipe lynch to a ksun lynch, and genuinely considers richard townish.

Anon's first post today feels like the sort of thing I do a lot to open a day as town, so I'm fairly comfortable with him as well.

Now to go do my own VC mining and see if i can come up with a top susp.

[The Fonz]

I think I want to lynch within this group today: Vasude, Fefi, Paltry, inHim, IAAUN and possibily <Shea Replacement.>

My read on Shanba is a little muddled right now. He certainly started having a great impact on the game, and his wagon analysis at the time looks very good. But I can't entirely ignore the fact that it would, if it succeeded, derail the ksun wagon which HE STARTED, and which I thought looked like distancing rather than a sincere attempt to get a lynch when I entered. I think I need more time here.

I'm also really hoping mipe starts contributing- since i clearly don't think he's that likely scum, it's a bit pointless trying to 'pressure' him, as that will look obviously hollow. At least, unless he gets so antitown he starts pressing on my policy lynch nerve.

[The Fonz]

Yos: Are you referring to Ye Olde Tymes? That's the last game I was in with you, although I wouldn't say anything went horribly wrong there, what with us never mislynching and all.

[The Fonz]

The thing is, on my reading of the day, I see almost no one who really looks like they were pushing the Richardg wagon as a counterwagon to the ksun wagon. In fact, almost everyone on the Richard wagon was already on it when the ksun wagon got stated. I'm really not sure why you're calling the Richardg wagon a counterwagon; by any reasonable defintion of the word, it really wasn't.

Yos, this is just flat-out untrue. While the mipe wagon was technically in the lead for a very long time, it had kinda stalled at L-3 when I replaced in. Then inHim and I vote ksun, and ksun is the wagon with the momentum. No new arguments are being advanced in favor of a mipe lynch, no-one new is even thinking about joining the mipewagon, etc. Then you kick off the Richard wagon as an alternative counterwagon.

If you look at Mod ISO 13, mipe has fallen to third place, and the other two are tied, with IAAUN having jumped the ksun wagon, and Quag and Korts jumping the GHP wagon. At that point, clearly, the ksun wagons and Richard wagons are competing. After that, Anon votes ksun to put that wagon ahead (strongly protown timing) and then Richard does. When Richard votes ksun, ksun

is only one vote ahead of Richard

so your claim that he went later on when the lynch was basically decided is

factually inaccurate.

Izzy then votes ksun, and given her repeatedly stated conviction that Richard is town, and that mipe now appears to have fallen out of the running, that makes perfect sense. THEN Vasude and zoraster jump the ksun wagon, and those are the ones that really look like buses to me. I think one of those two is pretty damn likely to be scum.

After that, Shanba moves from ksun to Richard on the multiple-wagoning theory, and you do your damnedest to rally support for a GHP lynch. So at the very least, there's the pair of you who were clearly counterwagoning.

Also note: Yos, I did not say that tunnelling was a towntell for you, in general. What I said in this particular occasion I have a gut feeling you are town, based largely on the fact that your desperate, headlong and last minute rush to get a Richard lynch feels very much like the sort of thing a town Yos does, and very much not the sort of thing a Yos aligned with ksun would do, WIFOM acknowledged.

[The Fonz]

Firstly, about mipe and ksun having the same play? They didn't.
Mipe played the game and did more than vote initially (though stumbling). Ksun was mindless and just voted and parrotted. A Ksun-lynch was a response to some not liking the mipe lynch and stagnation in the game and has little to do with how he played. I'll admit I found him scummy initially... until it became obvious he didn't DO anything except vote. Then it became a matter of how could ANYONE know.

Well, there was a definite 'Any counterwagon is better than a default lynch' element, certainly. But, you know, he gave us no reason what so ever to believe he was trying to help the town at all, and the fact that he was clearly as bad or worse than mipe but getting much less heat for it indicates more likely scum.

Really, you got called out for tunnelling by Fonz, saw that he pointed at me and that there was a case elsewhere, and thought you'd join the club.

This is VERY weak.

Secondly, a mipe flip would tell us A HELL of a lot. We'd get information on nigh every person in the game I'd think (beyond Zoraster who replaced in for a nobody and has since done little).

Lynching for information = BAD BAD BAD.

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: Why is lynching for information bad? I know it isn't optimal play, but it's a good enough argument. That and it's a three in one combo since it's also a good policy lynch in this case and Paltry's case is legit to me(I find behavioral changes as tells too, I'm a psych major 8D) Mipe is as useless as ever and is probably NK-immune.

If lynching for information is an acceptable town action, then anyone on a given wagon can say they were lynching for information. That means you don't actually get any information, as opposed to where everyone is at least pretending to be lynching someone they find scummy. There's obvious cognitive dissonance involved in running someone up to lynch, then if they flip town claiming that whoever ELSE was pushing them, or whoever was pushing them PREVIOUSLY, was doing so from scummy motives.

If, on the other hand, a player flips scum, i suppose you could claim someone defending them was scummy. But I think you're more likely to get a scum flip, and therefore better information, by wagoning someone you think

is actually likely to be scum

.

By all means, attack based on Paltry's case if you wish (I think it's bad, and i'll elaborate on why after i've delivered my next batch of leaflets) but citing informational reasons just makes the attack look scummy- like you're trying to get him lynched without the inconvenience of giving a reason for him being scum.

Incidentally, FFFF is both scummier, and a better policy lynch, than mipe.

@Yos: You replaced in and hardcore tunneled Richard. That, to me, was ridiculously scummy.

Tunnelling is not, and never will be, scummy. It's optimal town play if you feel with a high degree of certainty you've caught scum.

[The Fonz]

The combo of scumhunting and personal vendetta present in the above post says town to me.

Vote: Paltry

I'll give Yos2 his head on this one. I know I said I'd explain why Paltry's mipe arguments suck, but i'm gonna have to put it off again. Spending a lot of time on the UK election atm.

[The Fonz]

Right, why Paltry's argument is bad:

Essentially, you're arguing change of behaviour when under attack. That's not necessarily scummy. Nearly everyone becomes more defensive/less effective at scumhunting when attacked. Furthermore, players tend to spend more time on games they're actually enjoying. I know I can become less active in games if I'm being attacked with craplogic, or things become personal. mipe's behaviour took a noticeable turn for the better from the post when he claimed his other game had ended onwards: it may well be the case that he had overcommitted himself, and chose to prioritise the game reaching its conclusion over the one that was just starting.

Furthermore, that argument can be applied to so many people in this game. Yos used it against Richard: Y2 claimed that GHP was sitting back, and hoping mipe or ksun got lynched out of inertia. It can be applied to the players on the mipe wagon: when that wagon was contested, they didn't fight for it, they sat there lurking on the wagon, possibly hoping it would carry through without any effort on their part. It's also true of ksun, who sat back and let himself get lynched even when he had a roleclaim he must have known could have saved him. (I don't buy the Richard-buddy hypothesis: I think if we hadn't lynched ksun, he'd have had to be replaced).

Secondly: The mipe wagon absolutely stank of scum, and we said this at the time. It was bad enough we can pretty much know there was at least one more scum on it, besides ksun: we don't need to lynch mipe to find that out.

[The Fonz]

The above is a good case. I look forward with interest to the response. Meanwhile, an ISO of Paltry now makes me think, of all those on the mipewagon, he might be the most likely to actually have thought mipe scum. Need a rethink, but vote stays until i come up with a better candidate.

[The Fonz]

Mod: Why are you prodding someone who was banned weeks ago and hasn't returned from said ban yet?

Grrr, scumhunting time.

[The Fonz]

Right, scummy mipewagon.

Korts and Soras are dead, confirmed town.

Ksun is dead, confirmed scum. That leaves Paltry, Vasude, Richard, inHim, (Furcolow).


Paltry appears to be the one player who actually is convinced mipe is scum.

Furcolow appears town as a result of his own actions mitigating his predecessor's.

Richardwagon is horrible.

Vasude or inHim, then. Meh, both of them jumped the ksun wagon at times that looked unbuslike.

(SEE, this is why I'm struggling right now. The mipe wagon stank as a collective, and I'm convinced that there's at least one more scum there. But I see reason to think every player on that wagon, individually, has something which makes them appear town).

Vasude: Yos is right on the huge *BADTHEORY* vibes coming from him, but that doesn't mean he's town. I find it hard to see how having read lots of games fits with wanting to ride to claim repeatedly on day one, since presumably reading games would tell you that this is a bad idea. I mean, ISO 12 where he shamelessly proposes possibly the most antitown thing imaginable- he just feels, i dunno, guileless. Hard to read.

A fair bit of playing the newbie card on his own behalf, which I don't like. However, attacking the ksun wagon WHILST JOINING IT suggests scum if ksun had flipped town, however, since ksun flipped scum it looks noobtown. If he were bussing as scum, i'd expect him to sound a bit more enthusiastic about the vote.

InHim: Jumps mipe wagon at L-2 with no reasoning whatsoever, in a post where he attacks three or four other people. Directs a possible vig to a town player. His choice of ksun over Richard seems odd, since his list of five players he'd consider lynching didn't include ksun- in fact, he didn't mention him prior to this vote. His stated reason for staying on ksun after that is because 'A couple of people voted RGHP after [myself] and [he] put our votes on ksun. I'd kinda have expected him to have followed through on this today.

unvote, Vote: InHimShallIBe

@Everyone: What do you make of Quagmire's claim that he didn't notice ksun at all on day one?

[The Fonz]

I explained that in the post before, but basically, out of everyone one the mipewagon, he's the one who looked like he genuinely believed in it. Everyone else on it looked more cynical/opportunistic than he did.

[The Fonz]

Shanba: I was looking at those on the mipe wagon at its peak, as far as the VCs are concerned. I've written about you at length: I feel I need more time to get a read on you.

dahill's kinda an unknown quantity: Wagon was iffy, if not as stinky as the mipewagon, he demanded replacement ala anon for ksun,

- ksun could either be lazy scum or just a VI, i don't really know at this point. I think he should get replaced though.

-but also for mipe. On the other hand, he was on ksun early, and I don't get the distancing vibe off that vote as i did off yours.

[The Fonz]

I need to go back and look at R-Survival actually, since there, he felt scummy for some reason i couldn't really articulate, and was scum. Here, he feels town in the same way, but the case against him, on the face of it, is pretty good.

Damnit, I just can't read anyone here. Grrrrr.

[The Fonz]

Oh, scot, I'm happy to expand on my InHim vote (although not now, as i'm going to bed) but could you do me the favour of answering my question about Quagmire?

[The Fonz]

The question about not noticing ksun, fonz? Answered it right here.

Thanks, sorry, I think I missed that. Here's the elaboration on inHim.

InHim: Jumps mipe wagon at L-2 with no reasoning whatsoever, in a post where he attacks three or four other people.

To this point, InHim has not mentioned mipe, and he gives no reason for finding mipe scummy. He states in the same post that he thinks you are trying to play clean, and that he thinks Cody is a fool and probably a 'wolf,' presumably meaning scum though he's undoubtedly going to correct me on this if i'm wrong. The later post where he says 'You're actually scum' confirms this. He also talks about how his suspicion on scot is mostly gut.

Directs a possible vig to a town player.

ISO 14, asks vig to kill sorasgoof, who we now know is town. Directing vig generally bad as implies not-vig, though I've done it before.

His choice of ksun over Richard seems odd, since his list of five players he'd consider lynching didn't include ksun- in fact, he didn't mention him prior to this vote.

ISO 17 includes the following list of players 'He wouldn't mind lynching:' mipe, soras, Quag, GHP, dahill. In ISO21, he votes Richard, but then immediately withdraws this and switches to ksun who, again, he hadn't previously mentioned, after I put my vote on the latter.

His stated reason for staying on ksun after that is because 'A couple of people voted RGHP after [myself] and [he] put our votes on ksun. I'd kinda have expected him to have followed through on this today.

Given that inHim had the option to go to a wagon he himself said he found scummier, but didn't because he felt people piled on Richard in response to the two votes going on ksun- IE, implying that people were protecting ksun. Given that ksun actually flipped scum, if this had been what he genuinely felt, I'd expect him to be hammering this point home today, but he isn't really.

[The Fonz]

Furc- what part of 'Don't make reference to ongoing games' don't you get?

[The Fonz]

InHim, I think the issue is, if your fairly long 'comfortable with lynching' list was that if you included on it people you didn't particularly 'think' were scum, and it wasn't like it was a particularly short list, then you go and vote in quick succession for two players who weren't even on that list (without any reasoning), then it just looks like you're willing to vote for pretty much anyone.

[The Fonz]

and for whoever said my soft-claim was anti town: a soft-claim is not necessarily anti-town when you want to draw a hit due to you being a suckier player than those potentially going to get hit.

If you actually WANT to get hit, then there's no reason not to fullclaim and reveal your night actions, unless I suppose it's the kind of role that works best when scum doesn't know about it- but then, in that scenario i don't see how you'd want to get hit anyway. (Just a warning- I am going to go absolutely APESHIT if you're a mason).

inHim, let me try this again- if your 'comfortable' list includes players you don't even think are scum, that suggests you're uncomfortable lynching anyone else. Your subsequent willingness to vote two players not on that list just seems... odd. Also, why are you willing to explain your suspicions of pretty much everyone apart from the people you are actually voting?

Meh.

unvote

. I'm getting the nasty feeling I'm starting to play like Yos (not specifically in this game, how he plays generally). IE, voting by process of elimination for someone I really don't think sticks out as scummy on their own merits. On reflection, inHim's play is more confusing than scummy to me.

Vote: Anon

Let's turn the screw here.

[The Fonz]

Don't you just love it when a game stalls waiting on the 'I've been real busy, PROMISE I'll post tonight' guy to respond to his wagon?

[The Fonz]

Yeah, to be honest, Anon, claiming that your previous post should have allayed all suspicion of you doesn't really cut it for me. Especially since Iam's case has very little to do with why I'm voting you.

That said, I don't really see how ksun's early play could be characterised as 'dicking around' and mipe's not, especially considering mipe said this:

Shanba should know me well enough that if any of my actions make you think "is he serious?" the answer is "no"!

You went out of your way to make the mipe wagon look inevitable:

Do people really think, shanba et al, that there is another viable wagon besides mipe and that the voters are going to look even at it without a claim or a lynch?

And also said this:

He is basically a distraction that needs to be dealt asap

Which really does beg the question, why is this true only of mipe? Also, a certain amount of have your cake and eat it reasoning here:

Mipe is one of these players that will never replace out and has a stupid playstyle that requieres extreme decisions.

IE, his playstyle is so antitown he requires policy lynching

and yet

And since I think he is faking his easytargetness then I want this to be solved asap.

Well which is it? If he's just a terrible player with a horrible playstyle, that's one thing. If he's capable of playing better, but is playing like a walking newbie card, that's a completely different matter. And, as noted earlier, thinking that forced-replacement is the best way to deal with ksun, but death best for mipe is particularly scummy in the context of what we know.

Also, the idea that he suddenly became worse from ISO8 doesn't, I think, hold water: he appears to be dicking around plenty earlier on.

You claim your reason for supporting the ksun wagon is that 'the mipe wagon basically stank' but you make no reference to this until very late on. It didn't stink when you were pushing it right up to l-2. Or did it?

Also, you are misrepresenting your role on the ksun wagon. You claim this:

..I think this is an extremely important votecount, before I voted ksun and the wagon that lynched him grew inmediately.

ie, that you voted, then it grew rapidly after that. In fact, yours was the very last of four votes placed in quick succession: Izzy, Vasude, Richard, then you. Pretty much the definition of 'piling on.' Izzy votes at 12:02AM BST, Vasude at 12:54, Richard at 1:00, and you at 1:20.

[The Fonz]

I'm voting Anon, not inHim.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and nowNewbie 926 is done, I suggest at the very least those of you voting him go and look at it. Because, Izzy, 'he always plays this badly' is at least as appropriate a defence of Furc as it is of Richard.

[The Fonz]

Well, the constant ongoing game references are really annoying.

And I wouldn't call using SMM as meta evidence good, unless it was an inspired piece of situational mafia.

[The Fonz]

*situational mafia COMEDY.

[The Fonz]

Wtf? I check in nearly a full 24hr later and mine is STILL the last post!

[The Fonz]

How could anyone do anything with the minimal interactions there are in this game? I know I'm not the most active player on the roster but this is just terrible. >.>

There's 40 pages of interactions. We have a dead scum and multiple wagons to analyse. 'People are lurking, so i'll lurk' is a recipe for disaster. At the very least, if lurking is killing the town, you can pressure a lurker.

[The Fonz]

I think what reservations I do have about the Anon wagon are based on the fact it was instigated by IAAUN, who is massively undercontributing and could be under the radar scum.

That said, looking at how the votes piled on after you, Izzy, I'd be amazed if none of RGHP, Vasude and Anon are bussing scum.

[The Fonz]

Long post incoming

Unvote

Can you refrain from referencing an ongoing game?
Especially one we're both alive in. I think that's against the rules...

Again, I wasn't referencing an ongoing game.

Not scummy though. Stupid, since he's referenced said ongoing game twice, but not scummy.

Wouldn't it have been logical for ksun482 to be voting for Richard at the end? I know that it wouldn't change much, in that it would only put it at 7 in relation to 9, but 7 is a lot better than 4. I feel like ksun482 would have voted for Richard if Richard wasn't his mafia buddy.

I can not be held responsible for the voting trends other people created.

Yes, yes you can. What he's saying is that, if you weren't ksun's buddy, it would be an optimal move for ksun to vote you to save his own skin. The fact that he didn't suggests that he didn't want to because you were his buddy. Now, there are flaws in this argument (ksun was a VI, and had disappeared at the end) but it's not a point without validity, and it's evidence of scumhunting. Therefore, it's townish.

I don't understand how you can be 100% sure someone is scum based on a trivial matter such as votecounts. I'm not responsible for others' votes.

Again, here, you're doing something that scum often do- you're nitpicking on a minor detail, pointing out an oddity in Furc's phrasing, to try to invalidate his entire case. No, you can't ever be 100% sure. You also restate your utterly BS argument that 'you're not responsible for other people's votes' to try to make out like voting patterns aren't a great source of evidence.

Not exactly sure how that helps town.

How does disagreeing on whether a particular course of action helps the town make him scum?

He mentions that I am mafia in his eyes, nothing new here, but this time he declares shanba as scum after only a couple of sentences analysing ONE post. Calls inHim scum out of the blue, doesn't mention him again until two posts later, the next day.

Again. WHAT IS SCUMMY ABOUT THIS? How would you expect someone who has Furcolow's personality and playstyle, and a town alignment, to act differently here? Overreacting to individual posts is not a scumtell, it's a poor player tell.

OH LOOK ANOTHER TIE BETWEEN ANON AND RICHARD WHAT EVER SHALL WE DO

If you'll notice, I said prod OR replace the following players. Blatant misrep here, at the very least on me. Isolating ksun's name from the list is nothing short of word twisting. Not like I new ksun was scum. If I knew ksun was scum, I wouldn't have bothered listing him and voted for him earlier.

OMGUS and WIFOM. Protip: No-one ever thinks the case on them is good. Again, it's perfectly explicable by Furc not really thinking through things. That you have Anon down as town is relevant if he comes up scum, or you do.

Cites me as his major FoS, nothing new, but inHim is a mere FoS. Wait, what? Wasn't it you, my dear Furcolow, who stated inHim was mafia only 3 posts ago? The change from "..., inHim and ... are scum" to "FOS: inHimShallibe" is interesting. Anon is now receiving more attention.

More scummy nitpicking.

Richard is behaving differently than he has in the games I have him labeled as town.

Inane fluff. Until you have played with me and I have flipped before, you aren't in any position to make competent assessments about how I play what alignment.

Again, how's it scummy?

I could go on like this, but i think i've made my point, and this post is long enough. I don't think Furc's the best reasoner in the world, and i think it's entirely possible he's pushing a personal vendetta against you, but I don't think a single thing you have pointed out is actually scummy.

[The Fonz]

unvote

can be proven or vigged.

[The Fonz]

Bah,

unvote, vote: VasudeVa

I stand by what I said about at least one of the three being a bus, so I don't hate on the Richard wagon, but tbh I don't want to lynch one of the very few people clearly making an effort when there's a lurker who's as scummy.

[The Fonz]

Deadline was in three days when I replaced in and got ksun lynched, wasn't it? I think that this game might well die if we lynch an active player, and a couple of other actives die overnight. My big worry before the claim was that we'd end up with default wagon of anon followed by default wagon of Richard if he flipped town. Default wagons are bad, and rarely hit scum. Vasude is at least as scummy as Richard, and less useful if he's town.

Really, though, we shouldn't be required to lynch with half the town absent.

[The Fonz]

I'm not short of time over the next two days. If that's the only game in town, fine, but i think it being the only game in town is a disaster.

[The Fonz]

3) What do you perceive as optimum scum strategy given a large normal setting on day one?

Thank you.

3) Hide in large bandwagons. Too good to resist. Will be watching for that.

Vasude was on the dahill wagon, on the mipe wagon, and jumped the ksun wagon after it had become the largest wagon. Today, he has voted for both Richard and Anon.

I'm going to leave the *badtheory* part, since it's been done to death.

I wasn't convinced before, but I am now. He does try to get attention away from him(and does a bad job at it). I'm comfortable with the attention I have on me(Although I do piss poor job at posting my reactions to them), but he is trying to save his ass by getting mine lynched.

Vote dahil

BTW, thanks for the insightful posts.

OMGUS, and also the faint smell of 'too defensive.' Town under attack

should

still be scumhunting.

Finally, activity seems to be picking up. mipe's wagon is still legit. However Paltry seems promising. I am liking Anon's accusations so far: every accusation he has make sense and do not feel like accusations for the sake of accusation. I disagree with ksun, he seems more likely to be a VI rather than scum.

Vasude subsequently votes both ksun and Anon. Note that Vasude clearly indicates a preference for mipe over ksun here, but later switches to ksun with no reasoning. He also says he's fine with (in his own words) policy lynching FFFF, but defends ksun on the grounds that he's just a VI. Difference between ksun and FFFF; negligible, and what difference there was made ksun scummier.

I'm thinking of a possible scum group effort to steer away from mipe's lynch. Votals feel so chainsaw defense-ish. . Although, it really sucks that we know nothing of anyone's alignment so far, hence these theories are baseless.

This close to deadline though, I think I'll go with the wagon with the townier vibes.

vote: ksun

I pointed out the scummishness of this post before; having cake and eating it syndrome of calling the ksun wagon the 'one with townier vibes' at the same time as saying it feels like a chainsaw defence of mipe. Also, placing his vote on ksun on the first opportunity after it had become the leading wagon.

Yos is definitely scummy. His post here feels like it's grasping, and I disliked how he handled D1. Although, I still would like to know mipe's alignment, to further analyze the votals D1.

Today, more scummy wagon-for-information reasoning.

I like how Fur saw the connection between ksun/Anon/Richard with the requests for replacement though. Players don't PM mods for replacements, and town couldn't care less about ksun's shitty play. Scum do since ksun was a power role hence the requests. Good call, good call. Richard completely had me fooled though, he was a town read for me because I empathized with all the newbie bashing going his way but not anymore so I think I'mma ride the bandwagon thataway.

So, we have Vasude arguing that Yos' tunnelling is scummy, and voting the same player for similar reasons.

I can't help but feel that I'm a good choice for competing wagon so here's to discourage scum. Don't do it.

Why would he want to discourage SCUM? That's just weird. Not scummy, but seriously odd.

I cannot seem to get into this game as much as I would want to. But Anon lynch sounds pretty good right now. Mostly due to iamusername's case.

Vote:Anon

Person C.

Also, note the same thing you saw in Richard: anytime anyone puts particular effort into making a case, he goes along with it. Any time anyone confronts him over anything, he backs down or makes excuses.

[The Fonz]

Hey, CANDYMAN!

@Fonz: Is the reason why you are organizing a sudden deadline lynch on me

only

because I have been inactive and not posty?

Of course not, and no-one who's put one iota of effort into reading what I just said, or what i said earlier, could think so. My main reason for suspecting you is that you seemed to support policy lynches on all the lurkers EXCEPT FOR THE ONE WHO WAS SCUM, and then abruptly changed your mind when he became the leading wagon.

I'm town though. I think my involvement in what eventually lead the ksun lynch should have given me some town cred. Check it out. See here, Izzy votes and thus making ksun the top of the votals by one over mipe and Richard.

Yes, I saw that. Did you miss the bit when I said 'I am basically certain that at least one of Richard, Anon and Vasude is bussing?' On the basis that all of you piled on immediately after ksun became the leading wagon with little or no reasoning. The reason you would do it as scum is obvious- PRECISELY because you thought it would give you town cred.

Now, if I were scum, why would I make one of the decisive votes that led to ksun's eventual lynch? More over, why would I bus my partner who would probably be replaced soon anyway? Unless of course, the scum team is {mipe, Richard, me, ksun}(lol, worst scumteam ever), there was no reason to bus this early.

I think this has given me enough town cred to last me this day at the very least(more probably, due to the activity level of this game >.>).[/quote]

Craplogic. Your partner was in the lead, was the wagon with most momentum, and deadline was impending. He might have been in line for replacement, but it wasn't going to be before the deadline, and there were other players in line to be replaced before him.

Further questions?

Can you please read the motherloving case?

[The Fonz]

Also, @Fonz:

I really don't think a Vas counterwagon is going to gain too much steam at this point, and while I appreciate someone making a counterwagon, IMO I'm kinda doubtful it will happen today.

You're forgetting something very important.

[The Fonz]

Sooo, I can't change my mind if I'm town? And that was one post. Eventually, I changed my mind. Plus, ksun was the VI-iest of the lurkers(has the least posts and the least intelligent ones too). In fact, I was surprised he flipped scum.

Of course you can change your mind. Nothing changed in between those two posts, though, other than ksun looking like a likely, rather than longshot, lynch. I don't

think

either of mipe and ksun even posted. The cases were the same, and you'd indicated a preference for mipe. I'd expect you to fight for the mipe wagon, if what you had said about him before was true.

...at the cost of a Mafia power role at D1? Uh, okay. I still hold that I am one of the more decisive votes that lead to the lynch though.

Well, you could have run him up expecting his claim to save him. Or believed that he was going to be lynched anyway, and you might as well get some distancing in. It's unusual for a scum to be lynched with absolutely no bussing. And those three votes (no good reason, after he became the leading wagon) look the most likely candidates. Do you dispute this?

Craplogic. Your partner was in the lead, was the wagon with most momentum, and deadline was impending. He might have been in line for replacement, but it wasn't going to be before the deadline, and there were other players in line to be replaced before him.

What do you mean 'craplogic'?

You're making it look like your vote was this massive, crucial thing in getting ksun lynched. In fact, you voted him at precisely the point where it looked like he became more likely than not to be lynched, irrespective of your efforts. The mipe wagon was dying- no-one new was going to join it. So the only other option was to try to counterwagon Richard, which was a very risky path to take- odds were against it working, and if it didn't, it looks really bad. Even if it does, ksun was going to die and come up scum sooner rather than later.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, do you really think Vasu is a better lynch that Richard in terms of contribution to the game?

Yes. Richard has been clearly making an effort, Vas has lurked and then shown up when he's under suspicion (which cicero calls the candyman scumtell, hence the reference in my earlier post).

[The Fonz]

Paltry still looks to me like the least scummy person on mipe due to actually finding him scummy.

[The Fonz]

Fonz isn't confusing anything.

[The Fonz]

Well, the mipe wagon looked opportunistic and scum driven. But i think the person who started it and appears to believe mipe scum is less scummy than those who piled on.

[The Fonz]

Mr. Chaos, this is what I was hinting at earlier. It was always entirely possible Richard would claim power as well- indeed, if he's scum, it was certain. Do bear in mind town even-night tracker is pretty the weakest power role there is- I feel Richard is actually more likely scum for having made this claim. Also note we've seen the existence of scum power roles.

We can't just keep letting off anyone who claims power, because then we're basically guaranteeing a mislynch, because the only people who will claim vanilla are those who genuinely are.

You have basically three real options:

1) Lynch Richard anyway
2) Join me on Vasude
3) Lynch a lurker/flaker who was on mipe- Paltry, Quag, or Zoraster. My preference of these would be Zoraster since neither player in that slot has contributed. I've got reasons to think the other two town- I've never seen an actual scum state a willingness to bet money someone else is scum, and with Paltry, I've explained above.

[The Fonz]

Vote: Shanba

Checking support. Richard's claim makes his ISO a special kind of scummy. The D2 deadline lynch kind.

"Oh look! I'm voting ksun!"(ISO 17) and then the ksun wagon picks up... "WAIT, Richard's where it's at!, look at my gigantic wall of text as to why! But I'm only voting for him because I think he's linked with inHim and Ksun! So, instead of voting for ksun, Imma counterwagon richard instead!"(ISO 28). Riight.

Hey, Vava? You know when you were saying there were no interactions to look at? All these things you are talking about here had already happened at that point. Why are you only bringing this up when the possibility of your lynch has raised its head?

[The Fonz]

Vote: Shanba

Checking support. Richard's claim makes his ISO a special kind of scummy. The D2 deadline lynch kind.

"Oh look! I'm voting ksun!"(ISO 17) and then the ksun wagon picks up... "WAIT, Richard's where it's at!, look at my gigantic wall of text as to why! But I'm only voting for him because I think he's linked with inHim and Ksun! So, instead of voting for ksun, Imma counterwagon richard instead!"(ISO 28). Riight.

Hey, Vava? You know when you were saying there were no interactions to look at? All these things you are talking about here had already happened at that point. Why are you only bringing this up when the possibility of your lynch has raised its head?

[The Fonz]

Stupid forum issues.

Also, when PRECISELY is deadline?

I stand by my earlier statement that I would be astounded if none of Richard, Anon and VasudeVa is a scum busser.

[The Fonz]

There's nothing to clear him, no. It's just that there's nothing that incriminating against him either. He hasn't been uberwagonny, he's been on one bad wagon which he gave every indication of believing in, and acted exactly as one would expect someone who genuinely thought mipe was scum to act. Pretty much everyone else on that wagon looks scummier.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, Anon, your case... I don't see it. It's all bits of 'Well I don't like the tone of that post' and saying things feel 'forced' or 'contrived' when I don't get that impression at all.

[The Fonz]

@Shanba: Cool. Oh, may I point out that I like to ignore scumposting? I still hold to my belief that votes > explanations(since I'm a pretty gullible person IRL) and no matter how hard I look at it, I see a scummy vote. Someone who is not scum please defend him, so I'll go ahead and read your post. Scumbuddies do try too, so we know who to lynch tomorrow.

The irony of this post is that Shanba came to the conclusion that Richard was more likely scum based on a similar kind of analysis to the one VV is doing here. He looked at the voting patterns, and concluded that all the scummiest players seemed to want ksun rather than Richard dead. To be honest, the case on Richard was pretty strong- I was strongly tempted to join that wagon, but figured that there was no good reason to want to keep ksun alive.
_________________
The thing about Shanba from my perspective is that there are so many layers of wifom to it. On the surface, his argument for why Richard looked more likely scum than ksun is very good. Below that, you've got the fact that distancing early then defending late is a very common scumbuddy pattern. Below that, you've got the fact that's a particularly unsubtle and blatant scumtactic more commonly employed by scum much less skilled than Shanba. Below that, the possibility that Shanba knew this, but felt that his argument on Richard was solid enough that it would stand up to scrutiny. Underneath this is the question of whether Shanba's efforts were likely enough to swing the lynch that it would be worth the effort and extra scrutiny it would bring once the alignments were known (if Richard is indeed town).
______________
TL/DR version: I'm far from sure that VV is right about Shanba, but this is a conversation worth having.

VV, if not you, then who on the ksun wagon is the most likely busser? Actually, that's a pretty good question for everyone.

@Anon: My read on Zoraster? Apart from vaguely recalling that he was on the mipe wagon, I can remember literally nothing this player slot has done all game. Lurking + one mildly scummy action = decent enough lynch.

Interesting that VasudeVa basically admits knowingly lurking in contrast to his town meta, then starting to contribute when a case was made against him. Actually, my gut says this is SKish rather than scummy.

[The Fonz]

Shanba, can you elaborate your misgivings on the VaVa wagon? Specifically, do you think, as he contends, his vote on the ksun wagon was particularly unbuslike?

[The Fonz]

The thing is, Shanba, none of those players you identified as uberwagonny, and probably scum, in justifying your move to the Richard wagon, could be described as 'good players.' So there's an issue in telling the scummy from the incompetent with all of them, and you you definitely were claiming to think that that group of players was scummy.

Note to self: Have completely forgotten about IAAUN and scot. Neither was particularly town.

[The Fonz]

Well, I did find Anon scummier than VaVa. But there's that pesky matter of him having made a claim that's suicidal for scum. I don't get 'raw newbie' from VaVa, as with Richard I get 'other site meta.' His playing of the newbie card on his own behalf feels cynical (as does his repeated use of the phrase 'town cred'- as if achieving town cred was the aim of his play). I get much more 'just a poor player' from Richard than from VaVa. Broadly, though, it's similar to the ksun/mipe dichotomy- they've been broadly similar, but Richard's copped a lot more heat for it.

[The Fonz]

I do find the Scot attack on VaVa interesting, as he seems to be entirely ignoring the reasons why Va is legitimately scummy in favour of the things which can be explained easily enough by his newness.

[The Fonz]

How utterly convenient.

[The Fonz]

Well, the danger of course is that with his V/LA running past the deadline, he won't have chance to claim.

V/LA isn't scummy in itself of course (though the consequences of this one are nonetheless beneficial to scum and harmful to town) but you can sometimes detect a difference between townish V/LA (I'm going, better get my vote in the place where it can do most good before i leave) and scummy V/LA (screw you guys, I'm going home). I mean, Yos posting two days after his wedding when he could easily have gotten away with waiting longer I think is a town sign.

[The Fonz]

I concur. And I think zoraster's constant voting on the basis a wagon is inevitable is scummy. But I think the thing to do is to put heavy pressure on zoraster when he returns, if he's still alive. The more I think about it, the more i'm inclined to think we need to deal with the situation we have, rather than acting out our frustration that we don't have a better one.

So, Vava, Richard, or paltry. Hmmm. Still leaning VaVa.

[The Fonz]

So lynch me if that's really what you want to do, but I will not be posting in here again before I am done with the paper, so I'm not sure what you hope to gain unless you actually think I'm scummy. In which case go to town (no pun intended).

Zoraster- that's precisely the point. You ARE scummy, one of two or three most obviously scummy people, on the basis of your late jump onto the ksun wagon, and your 'piling on' to Anon and Richard solely on the basis of inevitability, rather than desirability, of their lynches, plus lurking. You've not really given any opinions on day two. So you deserve to be a major candidate for lynch.

And when someone who is scummy in that manner declares V/LA right before deadline in a manner which suggests they won't be around to claim, it's very frustrating for us, and, yes, convenient for you (in terms of this game- obviously, in terms of real life, deadlines are a pain), since it helps to ward off your lynch without you having to do anything protown at all.

Those people who are voting you are doing so because, despite the dangers of lynching a V/LA player, they feel that the alternative wagons are worse.

Though personally, the number of people willing to play the newbie card on Vasude's behalf gives me the creeps. I think he knows EXACTLY what he's doing.

[The Fonz]

Izzy, since you're stubborn yourself, playing avocatus diaboli... he could easily just be pissed off that we have the balls to suspect him while he's V/LA. Is he even the leading wagon? I lose track.

[The Fonz]

Fourth time.

THAT GAME IS ONGOING!

[The Fonz]

The case, such as it is, rests on two things:

a) He's that one guy you could barely remember was in the game
b) He was last on ksun, and today hopped on the Anon and Richard wagons for seemingly no other reason than they looked like they were going to succeed.

[The Fonz]

Well, a couple of RL days into the new day, and I see VV has added unnecessary role leakage and OMGUS to his list of stereotypical dumb n00b behaviours. Guess we're just waiting for him to selfvote now and we'll have the set.

That said, my suspicion of him is fairly strongly allayed by the following:

A) He has ended up on scum on both days
B) He is now pretty much certainly not SK
c) Having caught one ksun busser, that makes anyone else on that wagon significantly townier

He reasons on a very simplistic level, but that's just an irritation rather than scummy.

I'm pretty much uninterested in lynching anyone who was on both dead scum, at least for the moment. There's probably one scum at most there.

inHim criticism is terrible, seems mostly predicated on his playstyle which is heavy on wagons and light on explanations. Neither of these are necessarily scummy in themselves, which also goes some way towards explaining why I hate Cove's contributions so far in general. Scum don't care who's lynched

as long as it's not one of them

, but none of those he cites give the appearance of being in any way reluctant to vote scum. Not seeming to care who gets lynched AT ALL is not scummy.

Incidentally, listing Izzy as being 'on' the VV wagon is disengenuous- she was voting him for only so long as he was the main rival to Richard, and the defining feature of Izzy's play in this game is that she prefers pretty much any other lynch to a Richard lynch.

I wanna

vote: Scot

because I remember him as being fairly strident as town, and he's not at all here. Even allowing for exams, he's undercontributing relative to his meta, plus he was on RGHP over ksun, and VV over zoraster (with a bad reason to be on VV, and no comment on zoraster at all). There's also some kinda half-assed attacking of Scot that Zoraster did early on, then completely forgot about.

[The Fonz]

Well, yes, it does. You're what Yos calls the 'scummy looking lurker.' You've barely done anything, and those few things you've done have benefited scum. And no, I'm not basing this solely on Tree Stump, since i'm pretty sure i've read a few of your other games in the dim and distant past.

VV wasn't 'rolefishing-' he was openly advocating getting several people to claim early on. All the *badtheory* stuff is easily, and in fact best explained by being an extremely raw newbie with next to no concept of how we play on this site. The self-conscious playing of the newbie card, I'd agree, is scummy, (saying 'I did it because I'm a newbie' is not a valid defence, since presumably his thought process wasn't 'Hey, I'm a newbie! I know, I'll do something stupid!') and his vote on ksun looked a lot like a bus. But honing in on the badtheory just seems like you were looking for a quick and easy excuse to vote the counterwagon to zoraster.

[The Fonz]

Scot: I don't think 'lurk, push counterwagon to scum, rinse, repeat' is a lacklustre case at all. As for vava, if he were aware that such behaviour was considered antitown on this site, he'd be aware that such behaviour was, well, considered antitown on this site, and therefore likely not to work and to draw attention to himself. So clearly, he's either lying about his experience, which is a stupid move if you're PLANNING to hide behind the newbie card, or he's not really understood what he's read, or the othersitemeta is so ingrained in him that it doesn't matter.

[The Fonz]

Hang on, you're right- I had you down as jumping on Vasude at the end of yesterday, whereas you actually just sat on Richard all day. No, wait, the mod's votecounts are wrong.... AAAAAARGH! How the heck did the mod manage to miss Scot's vote when he got the Zoraster one IN THE VERY NEXT POST?

Right. You may have voted vava at a point when Zoraster had 'only' two votes on him, but NO-ONE other than VaVa and zoraster had votes, apart from the dying Richard and Anon wagons. It seems utterly obvious to me at that point that it was likely to be VaVa or Zoraster, and I'm not sure how any reasonable person could come to any other conclusion. In any case, you just threw your vote on the biggest wagon with deadline approaching. At best, it's not protown.

In any case, given that you wouldn't be able to post again till after deadline, voting the biggest non-dying (due to PR claim), non-scum wagon is EXACTLY what I'd expect a buddy to do there. I know I'm town, Zoraster is the dead scum in question, Shanba is dead town... so if any of Zoraster's buddies came to his aid, it has to be you. And it seems pretty likely to me that one of them would, given how tough it would be to come back from 2 dead scum in the first two days.

If you expect a 'better' case from the 'calibre' of me, who do you expect me to make it ON? I don't think mipe is scum because of the crapwagon on him. I don't think Paltry was scum because he was the one player on said wagon to really believe in it. I'm not sure on Yos, but my gut leans town simply from the effort he's putting in. Quag I've already stated, the thing about betting money is not something i've seen scum do, but i've definitely seen scum do it.

There is NOTHING scummy about Quag/Cove that doesn't also apply to you. So you've got all the negatives, but no mitigating factors. In addition, there's the whole Zoraster having you as no1 suspect on day one and then completely forgetting about you D2 thing. Sure, you can talk about schoolwork, but so did Zoraster.

[The Fonz]

*Definitely seen TOWN do it.

[The Fonz]

Meh. Perform all the verbal gymastics you want scot, you still lurked and took the action most beneficial to scum at basically every juncture. All your focussing in on the minutiae and excuse-making isn't going to make you suddenly have done anything protown in this game. And you have done literally nothing protown all game, with the possible exception of opposing the mipewagon, but even then, you didn't really make any effort to stop it or corral people into counterwagoning one of the wagoners. So that even looks like a 'good cop' scum move.

Your assessment of the case on you as poor doesn't seem to be based on anything other than it being on you. I've invited you to come up with a better one. Be my guest. If I'm wrong on you, that means either I'm wrong about being on the scumwagons being a towntell, or i'm wrong about my reasons for thinking the others offwagon are more likely town than you, or i've completely forgotten someone. Your call.

[The Fonz]

@Yos: Had you returned to the game yesterday at deadline in time to vote, would you actually have gone with the Zoraster lynch? Would you have preferred the VV wagon? Or would you have stuck to PE?

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Don_Johnson.

Not good enough, please try again.

[The Fonz]

While I don't think fonz's case on me was good at all, I do agree with him that we should look at those that were not on either of the scum wagons.

I love how, in this post, Scot basically follows the exact same thought process I did, except that he eliminates himself for obvious reasons rather than eliminating Cove because PE's push on mipe looked genuine, and then concludes that my case is terrible.

says the ksun lynch was for policy reasons which is why he stayed off of it, while he himself advocated policy lynching mipe in this post:

@Quag: Do you want to carry a player like mipe until later? His early game, before anyone really pointed a finger, was just bandwagon for the sake of bandwagon. Now he's recently become increasingly oblivious to how mafia is to be played.

Now, this is a pretty good reason to be voting Cove. The defence, I suppose, since Paltry isn't here to offer one himself, would be that he was not advocating policy lynching mipe; he claimed to find mipe scummy for his change in behaviour under pressure. The whole 'do you really to carry a player like mipe' thing could be seen as just an addendum.

His initial vote for mipe is based on this:

Scum-tactic 1: Get town lynched.
Scum-tactic 2: Emulate your town play.
Scum-tactic 3: Distance yourself from mislynches.
I don't have any meta on anyone, however I see mipe doing #1 and #3 possibly.

[quote="PaltryExcuse"The unhelpfulness after #9 is a null-tell due to his complacency and lack of effort, but before that we have a player who was clearly anti-town and unrepentantly jumping on the largest bandwagon.

the case on mipe isn't foolproof, it's based on anti-town bandwagon-y behaviour and then the sudden change in attitude once he's being pressure. I think he's scum, but 'proof' will never be there.

My strategy day 1 as town: Find someone who doesn't appear to be helping town in the slightest, aka appears to be coasting. Coasting, as you might agree, is a sign of scumittude. Throw my vote at them and see how they react. Depending on if I think it is a scummy reaction or not, I keep my vote there.

PE is VERY consistent about his reasons for wanting to lynch mipe, and it isn't a policy lynch. When I mean 'he looks genuine' what I'm getting at is that he is the one player that consistently defends the mipe wagon, and insists that mipe is scum, even when the wind is blowing the other way and he's coming under some pressure for it.

However I'm not seeing where this mipewagon hate has come from. Why is someone so anti-town a bad wagon?

mipe wagon

ksun

- He's done nothing all game which gives me a null tell read on the guy. He's voted on wagons... and that's about it. I find his wagon to be a mixture of policy / deadline lynching.

However, I still struggle to see where mipe is antitown and ksun is not. The only thing I can muster is that Paltry thinks mipe is being

deliberately

unhelpful because he's been suspected, whereas ksun is just a VI. However, then I'm surprised he says antitown rather than scummy.

See Paltry's ISO 22 for his big defence of this basic point.

He still suspects mipe on D2, saying that he can't see mipe's change in behaviour coming from a town pov. This, imho, is townish, since clearly it was going to be very hard to convince anyone to lynch mipe on D2 after the ksun town flip.

Short version of this:

Paltry's behaviour around mipe, and the arguments he uses most of the time, definitely don't look like a policy lynch, and his overall 'I'm not voting a policy lynch when I see scum elsewhere' attitude seems like it could well come from town. Other people seemed to have less reason to be on mipe in the first place, and also jumped off when the momentum didn't seem to be with it anymore, whilst Paltry stays true to his stated read.

However, he clearly DOES appropriate policy-ynchesque language on a couple of occasions to try to convince people onto mipe.

________________________________________________________

Onto Cove vs Scot, and I HATE HATE HATE Cove's OMGUS accusation. Could be panicking scum, could just be n00b. Scot votes for a player slot, based around finding a wagon scummy that he said was bad at the time, and one of many who were voting him (a genuine omgus would have been more likely to hit me) and the omgus accusation- I just don't understand how anyone could really come to that conclusion. If he's town, Scot genuinely suspects Cove, and if he's scum, he sees Cove as a player on whom he can push a reasonable-sounding wagon likely to garner support. OMGUS is simply unnecessary to explain Scot's actions either way.

It doesn't, however, escape my notice that this is the first bit of proper scumhunting Scot has done all game. It still particularly sticks in my craw that Scot criticised the mipewagon but didn't expend the effort I think he could have done to attack specific players on it and try to develop a counterwagon- so it continues to look to me like he was trying to keep his nose clean.

So yeah, neither is a bad wagon, but don_johnson's attitude continues to stink, and posting solely to avoid prods is a scumtell, so the vote's sticking at least for now.

[The Fonz]

EBWOP to split out my actual opening comment, which seems to have got caught inside the quote box:

says the ksun lynch was for policy reasons which is why he stayed off of it, while he himself advocated policy lynching mipe in this post:

:
@Quag: Do you want to carry a player like mipe until later? His early game, before anyone really pointed a finger, was just bandwagon for the sake of bandwagon. Now he's recently become increasingly oblivious to how mafia is to be played.

Now, this is a pretty good reason to be voting Cove. The defence, I suppose, since Paltry isn't here to offer one himself, would be that he was not advocating policy lynching mipe; he claimed to find mipe scummy for his change in behaviour under pressure. The whole 'do you really to carry a player like mipe' thing could be seen as just an addendum.

[The Fonz]

So, yeah, stuff is cool.

[The Fonz]

With the OMGUS accusation, I was getting at the fact that less than 24 hours after my vote on scot, he decided to ISO PE for the first time (which I'm saying lead him to find someone he could try and push a lynch on, more on this later). I really don't think this is out of the realm of what OMGUS really stands for (I know it's not full blown OMGUS, which is why I didn't say it was full blown. I think I used the term slight but I can't check because the site takes 10mins to load a page right now). It is possible that it is coincidence, but I'm not so sure. One thing I know is that you don't have to be a noob, or be nervous scum, to get the impression that if a person decides to build a case against you very shortly after you vote them, there could very well be a hint of retaliation in there.

Yeah, but, y'know... get over yourself. If Scot wanted to OMGUS, I'm the logical target. Most of those who had posted were voting Scot... is he supposed to avoid voting any of them for the purposes of not looking like OMGUS? Suspicion of you is entirely consistent with what he was saying on days one and two.

As for 'suddenly ISOing PE for the first time the day after I vote him,' well, the thing is, he hadn't really scumhunted before that. So anyone he attacks as a result of starting scumhunting, he's not really going to have attacked before, with the possible exception of Richard.

As for 'going for a convenient scapegoat to save his skin' I see little distinction between his play with regards to you, and your play with regards to him. Both of you, if town, are easy cases for scum to make- that is because both of you are

significantly scummy.

[The Fonz]

With the OMGUS accusation, I was getting at the fact that less than 24 hours after my vote on scot, he decided to ISO PE for the first time (which I'm saying lead him to find someone he could try and push a lynch on, more on this later). I really don't think this is out of the realm of what OMGUS really stands for (I know it's not full blown OMGUS, which is why I didn't say it was full blown. I think I used the term slight but I can't check because the site takes 10mins to load a page right now). It is possible that it is coincidence, but I'm not so sure. One thing I know is that you don't have to be a noob, or be nervous scum, to get the impression that if a person decides to build a case against you very shortly after you vote them, there could very well be a hint of retaliation in there.

Yeah, but, y'know... get over yourself. If Scot wanted to OMGUS, I'm the logical target. Most of those who had posted were voting Scot... is he supposed to avoid voting any of them for the purposes of not looking like OMGUS? Suspicion of you is entirely consistent with what he was saying on days one and two.

As for 'suddenly ISOing PE for the first time the day after I vote him,' well, the thing is, he hadn't really scumhunted before that. So anyone he attacks as a result of starting scumhunting, he's not really going to have attacked before, with the possible exception of Richard.

As for 'going for a convenient scapegoat to save his skin' I see little distinction between his play with regards to you, and your play with regards to him. Both of you, if town, are easy cases for scum to make- that is because both of you are

significantly scummy.

[The Fonz]

I claimed the Fonz's case on me to be weak for his analysis of my vote on Vas, which I strongly disagreed with, and his focus on me lurking.

Except that, y'know, both of these were fairly minor points: and I don't think I ever used the word 'lurking' to describe why I'm suspicious of you. My case on you, now as then, is that I expect a significant concentration of scum within those who were on neither scum wagon; everyone else in that category has given me some reason, however slight, to think they are town; a town-aiding action, an appearance of sincerity, etc. I see absolutely nothing from you that is better than a null-tell.

Basically, I'm concluding with regard to you is: you are someone who has some actions which look like scum might do them if they can get away with them, and you have fairly decent explanations of these. However what I don't see is any town-tells whatsoever, and some potentially scum-helping actions combined with reasonable-sounding explanations and no towntells says decent scum to me.

What I see of you is someone who criticised the mipe wagon, but didn't do any analysis of it; someone who, when offered the chance to join dahill and shanba in pushing ksun as a counterwagon to mipe, did not do so;

What you have done is try to make the argument about the precise timing of this or that vote, and focus in on the minutiae to try to discredit a case that's fairly broad, and simple: Your actions vis-a-vis mipe look like distancing from, rather than genuinely opposing, the wagon, Zoraster's attack on you and subsequently completely forgetting all about it looks like bussing, both times when you had an opportunity to vote for a scum with a reasonable chance of causing their lynch, you went for an alternative candidate.

Let's look at your posts while the mipewagon was rolling:

Yeah, I'm not liking the mipe wagon. Just seems like he is a player that doesn't really care, and that is not mutually exclusive with scum.

I propose we look for scum. Not policy lynch someone who everyone is disappointed in. As quag has said, the goal is to find scum.

Why do you think mipe is town?

Why do you think [mipe] is scum? Burden of proof lies on those trying to lynch him.

There's a lot of 'Yeah, this wagon is bad.' In fact, there's a lot of it throughout. Not 'this wagon is scumdriven' or 'Hey guys, how is this [mipe's actions] in any way as scummy as [other player's actions?] No 'I think X is opportunistic scum in his vote for mipe.'

There's also a fair bit of asking questions, and not really following through with them, which can be a sign of scum trying to appear active.

[The Fonz]

Hate to DP, but I will anyway:

Scot, when I use the term 'scummy-looking lurker' what I mean is, someone who's got few significant actions, a substantial proportion of which hurt town or help scum.

@Cove: PE may not have been around for the Zoraster lynch, but that's not the point. It's not that his non-presence on the wagon is scummy per se; it's that being on it is townish. The absence of towntells is scummy.

[The Fonz]

Covewagon smells like a scum wagon(Yes, any wagon I'm not on is a scumwagon.) don vote is a blatant attempt at a counter wagon. We lynch him tomorrow.

If you think I'm voting don to try to counterwagon Cove, who you supposedly think is scum, why would you want to lynch him tomorrow? *Sigh* so newbie. Not to mention, who made the flippin' case on Scot in the first place... I want to pressure Don because his current level of contribution is unacceptable, and a wagon is the best way to force someone to make a game more of a priority. (This game isn't THAT long, btw). Although I have something of a town read on Quag, it's not strong enough that I'm unwilling to
lynch Don if he keeps giving excuses rather than opinions.

zoraster's scot vote feels more like 'Hey scumbuddy~ I'm voting for you, *nudge nudge wink wink*. You aren't in any danger of being lynched any time soon anyway and this will make people like Amished think I am bussing prematurely incase I die for some reason!'.

Agree with this.

Lynch scot, lynch don the next day = town victory yay! I think 4 is a safe number for scum in a 20 player game(or is it now? Not sure~). We got already got two, so yeah.

See you in a week or whenever I feel like posting in this slow game. D:

The game's slow because people aren't posting. It's a vicious cycle.

[The Fonz]

*If you think I'm trying to counterwagon

Scot

.

[The Fonz]

Cove: I see. Fair enough.

[The Fonz]

@iamusername: Why no vote?

What the hell? Maybe because he flaked about a month ago?

@Nacho: Could you explain why you are

strongly

opposed to a scot lynch? I can see why you could find other people scummier, but I find it tricky to see how anyone could find scot especially

townish.

Likewise, Anon, what are the obvious reasons?

[The Fonz]

PLEASE, no-one hammer until dj finishes his much vaunted readthrough.

[The Fonz]

Shenanigans. You didn't apply the same logic to mipe when you found yourself in the same position dahill's in here. I also don't believe you're a lyncher of premature townie claimants. A vanilla claim shouldn't sway anyone off a wagon, but it isn't going to force someone who hates the wagon onto it.

[The Fonz]

Meh.

unvote, vote scotmany

. Not in specific response to what he just said, but because my attempt to rally people to pressure dj into contributing clearly hasn't worked, and i want to make my stand on scot vs cove. The cove wagon just doesn't feel like it's on scum.

[The Fonz]

Unvote, vote scotmany12

Posting on phone is tricky.

[The Fonz]

Anon, both docs are a) dead and b) scum. If, as i expect, cove flips town, we need a long look at yos tomorrow. If he flips scum, well, 3 straight scumlynches can make a whole lotta crow palatable.

[The Fonz]

Mafia played bad. Pretty bad. Though when the majority of the group gets replaced out its tough. Probably should have killed anon instead of fonz. Really disliked the setup, I wouldn't qualify this as a normal game.

Plus, the mod who originally flaked (thanks for taking over farside) refused to tell the mafia who our scum buddies were for quite a while.

Only until we all asked in the quicktopic did he finally give us a list.

That was terrible modding, tbh. This game also could have been broken by D1 massclaim, which is usually the sign of modfail. I don't have a problem with a big scumgroup with a significant problem (having to protect the murderers). Too many confirmable town definitely was a problem. Of course, there were the scum doctors. Scum shot themselves in the foot completely by not fakeclaiming (though, I suppose Zoraster probably had reason to believe his V/LA would protect him better than a claim).

Might have helped, but as you can see from the QT, I'd have been going after Don all guns blazing the next morning had I lived (I re-read overnight and the one big thing that came up was that Quag's D1 Richard vote was scummy as hell), and then gone for you when he flipped scum.

Amished, you played really good, but that "tell" on paltry/cove you used isn't a tell at all. You have got lucky the other times you used it, but that isn't a scumtell.

I think you're being obstinate here. It clearly makes sense. There are explanations for the behaviour other than scum-ness, and you can't expect it to go on working every time, because no tell is that good, but it's worth going with.

Also, Anon, while I was legit scummy, and knew you were going to kill me, that "he's scum because he asked for my reasoning," is not a legit reason to think someone is scum.

Yeah, I agree here.

Woot, town win, yay.

Now is as good a time as any to tell you that my D5 report was faked.

Yeah, and everyone suspected as such, because it seemed clear only the designated murderers could kill. That was a truly horrible, horrible thing to do, and was more likely to get you lynched than almost anything else you could have done. What was the actual case? You forgot to submit one?

As for Scot's argument about Zoraster, I couldn't disagree more. Town has every right to express frustration at a very scummy player, and the leading candidate for lynching, claiming a V/LA which happens to run to the day after the deadline, even if it is entirely true. We didn't 'attack him' for being V/LA at all. Pissant just means annoying. Zoraster's attempt to strawman the wagon on him didn't help his cause.

[The Fonz]

Was there a dead QT?
__________________________

I faked the report because I didn't get to request one that night and I figured it made sense, from a logical standpoint, for a godfather to have the ability to kill as well as the murderers. I suppose I was hoping it would go unnoticed. Please don't berate me too heavily for it. Mistakes, learning from them, moving on and so on.

But that's just it- you made an obvious lie, that didn't make sense (it wasn't logical for the godfather to be able to kill, and also, it would have required you to be protected, which NO-ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would have done). And for no real benefit, too. Believe it or not Richard, a lot of people look for individuals whose actions make absolutely no sense as town as primary scum candidates.

As I noted in the dead QT, it was funny how basically every replacement immediately honed in on Richard and Vasude. The obvious lesson from this game: wagoning isn't a scumtell, lurking definitely is.

[The Fonz]

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/7u5F5pGhE7N35

Only me and Shanba really posted at all.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and sharing my big post from immediately after I died:

Hatesagi, Korts may have been a cop, but the rest of us aren't. Thanks for blowing most of the remaining suspense from the game.

Further proof, mind, that posting JUST to avoid prods IS scummy... something YThill said in the Dead QT for Mendo- lurking town will lurk badly enough to get prodded. Players who are constantly near the prod threshold but don't get prodded are usually scum. Although, of course, ksun lurked badly enough to get prodded, too.

Yos is being overly harsh on Amished. His tell is actually good, and makes sense, I just didn't think it was infallible (people who readthrough before getting their role might also make a comment like that). PE came across as much more genuine in his suspicion of mipe than every other player on the wagon, as I said when I was alive- he looked like he believed in it, everyone else looked a scummy opportunist.

The one thing I really picked up on with my overnight re-read, and would have pushed today if I were alive, is that, going back over day one, Quag voting with Korts really deserved a lot more attention than it got at the time. Voting with Korts, with no reason given for actually suspecting Richard, only a justification that he hadn't noticed ksun (OK... read him now, then!) was the most obviously counterwagon-looking vote made... well, all game, pretty much.

If there's a fifth scum, and there probably is, I still think it's Scot... his defence of Quag as 'just a lazy player' stands out. Depending on numbers of scum, the whole 'counterwagon to scum' towntell kinda loses its power when you've already lynched a LOAD of scum and there aren't enough left to push a wagon in any significant number.

I really don't think, given day one and the 'He was an SK' bit, that dahill is scum. I'd definitely have said the same as Anon if I were alive... in fact, I'd agree with pretty much everything he's said until he went off the deep end with the whole 'Scot is scum for asking me to explain my case.' Scot may well be scum; not because of that, though.

If there's a fifth scum, and it's not Scot, I'd then look at Yos, the vacant IAUN slot (surely GOT to be Anon's target tonight) and maybe... I dunno, inHim?

This is a funny game, because pretty much every single replacement who comes in notices Vasude and Richard's wagoning, and immediately thinks they're scum. It kinda makes it weird to do any wagon analysis when the second anyone makes a remotely plausible sounding case, those two will jump on it.

[The Fonz]

Fonz: funny you should say that. Do you remember my day 1 voting analysis thing? I picked out ksun, inhim and ricky in red. Hah, and then I went after ricky. Inhim was the worst wagonner of the lot, he just sometimes chose to wagon on scum.

Well, so did Richard and Vasude. That's part of why I didn't really think Richard was scum (though, I have to admit, Yos was AWFULLY close to convincing me to switch at the death on day one- your point that Richard looked like he was making out that whoever was the biggest wagon at the time was the one he sincerely believed was the scummiest, was a good one) and I went away from suspecting Vasude (that and the 'Well duh, I don't have a night action' which was so noobtown it was incredible). The fail of Cove's wagoning analysis, apart from y'know him being scum, was he gave scumpoints for wagoning town, and completely ignored wagons on scum. If a player wagons a lot, but is indiscriminate between town and scum, it tends to mean they're just a wagony player. Obv, if a player jumps from town wagon to town wagon but conspicuously avoids scumwagons, you've got something there.

I think this game points up the importance of contrasting scumhunting styles too; I was right about Don, ksun, Zora (yeah, I didn't vote him, largely because of the V/LA: I was still the first one to suggest that a Zora wagon was a good idea) and Scot, but completely wrong on Cove and InHim, was able to resist (just) the siren call of the Richard wagon, but found Vasude incredibly scummy, at least for the first two days. Yos was right on Cove, but wrong on ksun, Zora, and Richard. Amished was right on InHim and Cove, but wrong on Dahill, Scot, and Mr.Chaos. Anon had Scot and Don, but missed on InHim, etc.

As for power roles, a scum odd night tracker might have been useful. That said, again, the two scum doctors had something they obviously could claim, probably buying one more mislynch, and conspicuously failed to do so. Another facet of my thought that Cove was town was that I 100% did not expect a third scum, given the opportunity to fakeclaim, and having seen two team-mates go down without doing so, not to take the opportunity to fakeclaim himself. Even if it was just to out the even night cop. Failure to fakeclaim facing lynch just KILLS scumteams.

[The Fonz]

I didn't see inHim post thoughts on other people and push for their lynch. To magically hop on and find scum to that degree without many thoughts of your own is a null tell.

You weren't around at the same time as BabyJesus, were you? Hehe, I've seen Jack come under attack for exactly that (being right a lot without making cases etc) repeatedly as town. I think there's a folk prejudice against those who don't explain everything that makes them easy targets. That said, I do think you have a point about being on all of them- none of the actual town players was on EVERY scum wagon. Mind you, beware too townie...

Is the Scum QT available?