Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[Doombunny9]

Vote: Quar

For being neighbors with me. fuzzy is obv partner.

[Doombunny9]

I'm willing to beleive Nacho for now, if only for the reason that I have no reason to suspect him as scum at this point. Could he be scum? Yes, but until I have enough to go on to support a nacho lynch, I won't support it. The only issue with the claim is that in an endgame situation, he may choose to vote with the scum in order to save himself and win but if that's the case, we can easily vig him.

[Doombunny9]

Doom: I don't think you've thought it through, numberwise.

I don't see what you mean.

LYLO situation:
Scum: Let's kill <townie>
Nacho: I agree, let's kill someone who isn't me!

In an endgame situation, a survivor doesn't need to care who gets lynched as long as its not themselves.

Also, I'm all for a scumcore lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Seacore

[Doombunny9]

I was actually talking about you saying that it was fine if he sided with scum because "we could easily vig him" >_>

So then you purpose we vig nacho so that town loses?
Assume 3-3-1.
Vig shoots nacho.
3-3. Well damn.

I see what you mean now. I was thinking that if it looked like we were reaching a endgame situation but before we were there, we could get him vigged if it looked as if he might "switch sides" (This is all assuming we have a living vig at that point) but as Sea stated, this all doesn't matter too much until we get to that point so there's no use trying to plan out so far in advance.

[Doombunny9]

I think it's definitely the person who started the wagon, ie, the second vote. We should definitely lynch that guy.

I have to admit I just realized that and loled.

Unvote

I'd like to see Krypt answer Sea's questions.

[Doombunny9]

I'm getting bad vibes from Krypt right now and would be voting him if she wasn't already close to a lynch.

No, I wanted to see the way you answered. It was clearly a question that didn't have an answer, so I wanted to see if you panicked. Instead you answered flippantly and straight out suggested we should lynch you. I have not seen you play and this seemed like a good way to see how you play and how you respond to pressure.

This just reads as a poor excuse to me.

@Krypt- What would you have suspected scum would have done in this case? What do you mean by panicking? Do you think someone

wouldn't

have corrected you?

Anyway, Seacore, why did you change your tone? In the span of just a few posts you went from flippant to aggressive. What was behind this change?

As with your other one, what is the point of this question? I don't really see how aggressiveness or a sudden change in tone is all too scummy or tells much about the player.

Also, I'd have to agree with AV, its a bad idea to feed possible scum answers. If you really want to get in the discussion and voice your own opinion, at least wait until Krypt (or whoever the case may be) has answered.

[Doombunny9]

Vote: NS

I have no reason to not be voting someone at this point and since Krypt is at L-1, I'm going to have to go with my #2 suspect. Its rather early for someone to be put at L-1 methinks and NS hasn't really added anything new to the discussion, rather just a rehash of what everyone else has been saying.

I'm also confused as to why Jedo still has his vote on Krypt. It looks to me as if he voted him to keep discussion flowing and to push us further out of RVS.
@Jedo-Do you still think this is necessary? We're well enough out of RVS and there is enough discussion at this point that bandwagoning just for the sake of bandwagoning is pretty pointless. Methinks that Jedo is just trying to be with the rest of the crowd while having a reason not to be scummy because of it ("Oh, I was just doing it to bandwagon. I have no attention to see him lynched!").

[Doombunny9]

Thanks for for avoiding every question directed towards you, Krypt. Along with AV's question, here's what you missed:

@Krypt- What would you have suspected scum would have done in this case? What do you mean by panicking? Do you think someone wouldn't have corrected you?

Krypt wrote:Anyway, Seacore, why did you change your tone? In the span of just a few posts you went from flippant to aggressive. What was behind this change?

As with your other one, what is the point of this question? I don't really see how aggressiveness or a sudden change in tone is all too scummy or tells much about the player.

And as for what AV is saying which you either can't understand or are just unwilling to answer properly-Why did you unvote rather than keep your RVS vote? What harm does it cause to keep your RVS vote on someone? (And along the same line of reasoning, do you still not find anybody scummy enough to be deserving of a vote?)

Oh yeah. I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon.

Everyone have a good long look at this. How much more obvscum can you get rather than just admitting it? I don't see ANY pro-town reason for wagoning just for the sake of wagoning outside of the RVS, especially since you stated that you didn't think Krypt was scum.

Unvote, Vote: Jedo

[Doombunny9]

Secondly, thanks Doombunny for calling out Krypt on the "missing things" thing, except, wait -- you didn't mention my question that she also avoided. Trying to single me out for something?

1. Okay, firstly, IT IS NOT MY JOB TO SEARCH THROUGH THE THREAD LOOKING FOR EVERY QUESTION DIRECTED TOWARDS KRYPT when you ask him one. Pay attention, do something for yourself for once.
2. He already answered the question, he participated in the RVS to get discussion going and starting asking questions when he realized the RVS wasn't getting the job done.
3. You're case on me is because I missed your question? Come on, it may only be page four but you should be doing better than that.

And now I'm torn between three almost equally scummy people.

[Doombunny9]

Day 1 you've got crap all to go with, bouncing from wagon to wagon is a good way to generate information for later. I'm not calling it a town tell, it's null for me.

How exactly does it generate information for later when all Jedo's really doing is just sitting on Krypt and not putting any pressure on other than his vote? He even stated himself that he didn't think Krypt was scum and that he "understands where she's coming from". He also said that he wagoned to stimulate discussion and now that there's enough discussion, his only reasoning for not moving his vote is because "I don't want to start the unraveling of a perfectly decent wagon."

[Doombunny9]

New person I'm looking at: Packbat.

If you look at him in iso he just seems to be creating noise. He's posting enough to not be considered lurking but most of his posts are just fluff and he doesn't seem to be participating in much discussion. Rather than questioning people and he corrects people on mistakes they made.I'll have to remember to take a closer look at him as the game progresses.

Other than that, I still would like to hear a better explanation from NS about his case on me as "OMG you missed my question. Grrrrrr." Isn't cutting it.

[Doombunny9]

To people with him as a QT partner. Did he realise the game was in progress?

All he did in my QT was ask how I was doing so I can't really answer that.

I put my vote down randomly

Can you expand on this? Moving from wagon to wagon isn't really random. Also, for further clarification, who do you find more scummy, twisted or Krypt? Finally, is your vote on Krypt more because you think he's scummy or because everyone else is wagoning?

Seriously look at Krypt in post #113. And then follow Glass's example.

I don't see anything too bad. Care to point it out for me?

my habit is to acknowledge and expand upon others' reasoning when I find that reasoning compelling enough to vote upon.

From looking at you in iso, I'm going to have to call bull.

[Doombunny9]

Translation: Hey, here's a bunch of sneaky rhetoric about different ways he can be scum, and while I'm at it, I'll throw some suspicion on you too, Seacore. But I realise that all this is baseless so I'll throw it all away with my final line. There, now I've muddied up the waters enough you can all continue to be suspicious of Jedo.

What I think Krypt was getting at was that Jedo could have blatantly just wagoned for plenty of reasons and that scum can do it too.

[Doombunny9]

If a vig is around at endgame. Also, your reasoning for lynching me kind of seems like an obvious way to treat everyone, regardless of claim. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

I was saying that as a survivior, you wouldn't care if town or the scumteam won so near endgame, it would make sense for you to quicklynch with scum in order to survive and win.

Why weren't you voting Seacore at this point if you read him to be scum?

Please take a look at what time period we were in. It was the RVS and I was joking about Sea in order to wagon him to try and get us out of the RVS quicker.

Doom's post #70 is testing the krypt bandwagon without jumping on it.

You would have preferred me putting Krypt at L-1 so early?

Why NS over Jedo? Jedo had contributed nothing at this point aswell.

NS was over Jedo because of my main point for voting him: He put Krypt at L-1 much too early in the game. At the time Jedo didn't confirm yet that he was just bandwagoning just for the hell of it.

Why do you suggest that Krypt's avoiding your question as opposed to simply missing it?

Seeing as how he missed two (That's right. I'm leaving you out again NS ) with one of them (AV) asking his question repetitively, I find it hard that he just missed them.

But instead she listed 5 options, 4 of which list him as scum, 1 of which throws me in the deep end with him. And on top of that she then undoes it all and basically says but they aren't all equal.
It just radiates scum to me.

And then there's the actual potential motivations she's listed
1) trying to take the heat off himself - what heat? he wasn't under much heat when he made the comment
2) he wants to create chaos and WIFOM - how is what he's doing creating chaos and WIFOM, there's little chaos, it's more like a spotlight on krypt, that's the opposite of chaos. and WIFOM only works if Krypt is his buddy. Is that what Krypt is admitting to here?
3) Thought up what strategy before hand? That he'd openly declare that he's bandwagoning for the sake of it? Or the strategy that I'd vote for somebody for doing something scummy? Brilliant strategy that.
4) What slip?
5) Yeah, of course he's maybe telling the truth.

I don't see anything wrong with providing examples and all of these reasons are valid to a point. I'm just going to write it off as a null tell until I have reason otherwise.

Anyway, nacho=pro-town and I'm going to beleive his survivor claim for the time being.

[Doombunny9]

Yes. If that was the only lead you have, you should have reread the game and found another suspect, or pushed krypt to L-1. An aggressive town is a victorious town.

And I did do that (see my vote on NS in my next post). I just wanted to stay on the safe side and avoid a quicklynch.

@Jedo-What makes your plan of riding out a wagon D1 better (As in, how well it helps to catch scum) than "normal" play? Why do you still do it when you know what's going to happen to you?

[Doombunny9]

The difference today is I haven't seen anything overtly scummy enough to move my vote elsewhere, nor anything convincingly townie enough to simply drop it.

And you believe that you will catch something? What is it that you hope to catch while wagoning that you haven't gotten yet?

Anyway, after looking through Jedo's iso, I am noticing a difference between the way he usually plays and the way he is now. For one, he seems to be more blatantly wagoning in this game more than any of his other ones and he scumhunts more in his other games than in this one. Something else I've found:

I do it because it gets results. Of the last few games I've played (some off-site), we have caught scum day 1 like this.

What do you mean by some because I assume that you mean all if you're even telling the truth. The recent games you've been in where scum was caught day 1 were: Lost: Season three where you were never even on the lynching wagon so if you did catch scum that way, you weren't a part of it, Sherlock Holmes where the scum in question was you, and an ongoing game where the same situation as Lost occurred. Care to explain?

[Doombunny9]

(Also, I'm not sure I understand neutral roles - when Nacho claimed he said he could win with the town. Is that even possible? By claiming he's aligning himself with us knowing he has to die before end game and then he'll just pretend he won? If he's really a neutral, isn't claiming that playing against his wincon?)

Nacho is a survivor meaning that as long as he survives until the end of the game he wins despite which faction wins. Nacho was pretty much saying "Keep me alive and I'll help the town to win."

@Jedo- I don't think you've understood my other question so let me rephrase it for you: What makes you think that you're going to catch scum from wagoning if you haven't caught one already? also, you've stated that you've been successful with this tactic on other sites, could you provide examples?

Also, when twisted gets back from V/LA he needs to post more content rather than the fluff he's been posting.

[Doombunny9]

The case on power does make sense but I still feel that it's fairly weak compared to the other candidates right now. Before I even consider switching to him I'd want to hear from both him and Jedo first.

@Sea-What makes you think that Power is a better lynch than Krypt (Or anyone else for that matter)?

[Doombunny9]

@Nacho: You're calling me lurker? Yes you announced V/LA until the 9th of April but when did your next post come after that? Four days later! And your calling me a lurker? Nice contradiction there

This post alone completely made me revise my thinking. For one, does Nacho's activity have any effect on yours? No, so post a defense rather than just saying "But-But-You're doing it too!" Secondly, his reasoning is more than just a lurker lynch, did you even read it? Meanwhile, your case on him is weak and seems more like OMGUS than anything else.

Unvote, Vote: Power

I was beginning to have to have second thoughts on Jedo anyway assuming what he said about playing to his meta is true.

[Doombunny9]

Doom: what's your take on Setael's case on Jedo? You've played with Jedo once before; plus his recent games are available on the site, as someone else has already proven. Why do you need to assume anything about his meta?

Jedo stated that he often wagons to catch scum however, the only game where I can find a good example of this is ongoing. However, he did say he uses this strategy in a few other sites which makes me want to verify if what he says is the truth.

Other than that I still don't have much to say until Jedo or Power come back.

[Doombunny9]

@krypt:

Nobody Special
In ISO 3 and 4, he's doing a pretty huge overreaction deal about that he didn't announce that his vote in ISO 2 put Krypt a L-1

Twistedspoon
His behavior seems a bit to... how should I say it... random in order to be town behavior.

Thanks for ignoring well... Just about everyone else. Can you explain your case on Nacho a bit further and give a defense this time rather than just OMGUSing this time?

Also, going on what twisted said, is this the best you can do? Krypt asked for two reasons EACH and these cases are just as weak as your Nacho one. We have nine pages of content. Surely you can find more than this.

[Doombunny9]

What sort of behavior prior to LyLo do you think would indicate that he was planning to switch sides? Personally, I can't really think of anything.

Let me clarify. It's not a question of *if* he's going to switch sides but *when*. During a lylo situation, Nacho is going to want to quicklynch the first person he can (unless its him) which is why of we're nearing a lylo/mylo situation, we're going to have to vig him (Or if we don't have one, lynch him).

Why the unvote? Also, why not vote Kryptinen here? Your previous vote had been what looks like a bandwagon vote: the third vote on the Seacore bandwagon and if you had switched your vote to Kryptinen, it would've been, at the time, the third vote on a bandwagon which actually had serious reasoning behind it.

I was on Sea for RVS. When it was clear that we were moving out of RVS, there was no reason to keep my vote on anymore and to switch it as quickly as possible. Krypt was beginning to look scummy at that point but I wanted to give her a chance to explain herself before I was sure.

[Doombunny9]

Did you find Jedo's original vote for kryptinen in post 60 to be suspicious? If so, why no mention of it in this post?

I didn't find his vote to be suspicious at first. At first, it just looked like Jedo was bandwagoning to ensure that we keep discussion going and that we didn't stop which was ok at first. It was only when he confirmed that he was just bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning that I began to find him scummy.

Jedo the Jedi said it was simply a bandwagon vote in post 60. Why not acknowledge that until now?

See above.

[Doombunny9]

Why would you have written this? Did anything in the question suggest you would be able to speak for packbat? Packbat's not Nacho's other neighbour, so even that possible explanation doesn't make sense.

That comment is just really really out of place and pings my scumdar something shocking.

Now that's great and all but what would the scum motivation be for saying this because I can't think of anything.

[Doombunny9]

@Twistedspoon: Any reason you complaining about me missing arguments but you holding back one yourself?

Can you expand some more on this? Also, I do believe I (And others) asked you a question that you still haven't answered. Less ignoring of that would be nice. Just because you move your vote doesn't make you safe from answering.

You say here that we could get him vigged if it looked as if he might "switch sides". What could Nachomamma8 say or do to make it look as if he might "switch sides" ? Am I missing something?

That was an error on my part. I was meaning that we should vig him if he was probably going to switch sides soon. (meaning: MYLO/LYLO)

Makes sense, but I have a follow-up question: do you think there was any good reason not to vote kryptinen at this stage?

Hmm, probably not but I figured there wasn't really a point to voting her either.

You didn't realize that Jedo the Jedi was bandwagoning just for the sake of bandwagoning even when he said he thought kryptinen was town:

In the same post you quoted Jedo said his reasoning was to "keep the steam going" at the time, I assumed that just meant that he was still trying to milk as much discussion out of the town as quickly as he could.

[Doombunny9]

Due to a mixture of time constraints and laziness, I'm going to have to skim through some of these larger posts for the time being.

Power's reasoning is still poor. He should be trying harder. We have 11 pages worth of content and he could only come up with one reason for his top pick? It's not even that good of one.

@Me voting nacho earlier: That vote was done in anger... That'd all I can give you on that.

When approximately did you start having second thoughts about Nacho and realized that you were just angervoting him?

@Everybody - What do you think of my points against Powerrox, Glass, Quaroath, and Packbat?

I have to say that your cases defiantly brought new light on these players and I have to agree with what you said about the four of them, Pack and Power in particular. While I may not think the other two be as scummy as some other players though, I'm definatly going to take a closer look at them as we keep playing and a reread in iso later.

I suspect ox now

Who now?

[Doombunny9]

@Pack- This has been going on for while. Any reason you've waited until now to vote Jedo for it? What makes it more scummy now? Also, if he's not at the top of your scum list, why are you voting him?

[Doombunny9]

For whatever reason I appear to have read the boled part of your post with a Vote: in front of it XD

Anyhow, you say that Jedo is no longer at the top of your scumlist. Do you still find him scummy or has he lost that read? Who is currently at the top? What will your opinion on Jedo be if he does move his vote? If he doesn't?

[Doombunny9]

Claim watcher that couldn't do anything N0

I wouldn't mind testing keeping him alive to see if he's telling the truth. I think we should keep him alive tomorrow and before we do anything else, get his report and see if it checks out.

Unvote, Vote: Quar

He and Pack have been going through the day posting little new opinions and information which makes me suspicious of them. The votes he made on others are just weaker forms of other peoples cases and just seem a little opportunistic to me as if he's jumping from potential lynch to potential lynch to get town lynched without any work. The only reason Quar is more deserving of my vote than Pack is because as Pack showed in his recent post, he can at least come up with new opinions for the people he finds scummy (I still want him to take a stance on someone and put down a vote)

[Doombunny9]

*Pokes Pack* Are you done with those iso readings yet and ready to post a vote? From your timestamps, you've been looking over them for a little more over 12 hours. Also, what are your opinions on Quar and Twisted?

Anyways, as a whole, we had better come up with a decision relatively quick since we have a little less than a week and for some people, it may be hard for people to post due to Easter coming around.

[Doombunny9]

I've only been keeping up with the latest posts - I haven't even gone back to look at anyone else. Bug me again if I haven't posted at least one more in twelve hours.

Words words words

Thoughts on this?

I can agree on this for the most part but there are somethings I have to disagree with.

1. If he gets a report saying that no one visited someone, he should out it. Even if scum lies and said they visited someone, we know that they're scum when power flips. A 1 for 1 tradeoff is pretty good in my book.
2. If he catches scum he should out his report for obvious reasons.

Power getting killed may be a problem as well but that's something to decide later.

Check out this one by doombunny voting his second suspect for putting his first suspect at L-1. Makes me think he is lying about his reads as he is attacking someone for voting what he says is his strongest scum read. Even if he is trying to make a bussing accusation, Krypt would need to flip scum first.

What bussing accusation? At that point, I thought it was way too early to put ANYONE at L-1, regardless of whether or not I think they're scum.

Also, The "If Jedo is town then Doom must be scum and vice versa" seems off to me. Almost as if he's trying to set up lynches ("Oh, so Doom flipped town? DIE JEDO DIE!")

I also like how he's isn't explaining his reasoning. Apparently AV is scummy but no one knows why but him. Oh well.

[Doombunny9]

I've only been keeping up with the latest posts - I haven't even gone back to look at anyone else. Bug me again if I haven't posted at least one more in twelve hours.

/bug

fix'd

[Doombunny9]

I haven't heard a convincing reason given by anyone who unvoted him.

Have you been reading the thread? Power claimed watcher. Watchers are easily confirmable. Now put two and two together.

[Doombunny9]

Read my post again. "Him" in what you quoted is referring to Jedo, not Power.

And no, I'm not caught up. As I stated.

Alright, I suppose that makes sense. Anyways, the reason for my unvote was that it seems to match up with his meta somewhat (Not perfectly but still enough to give it a pass) and it seems to work sometimes. The only issue I'm having with him now is that he kept it on for so long.

Llama continues to give little explaination for his reads but ah well, he's still rereading which I suppose is acceptable, just as long as we get more reasoning when he's finished.

[Doombunny9]

I don't like this - that first of all he feels he needs to give a reason for unvoting Jedo (I think scum who are bussing would be more likely to do this) and second that it's such a weak reason and he's just assuming about the meta.

How is it weak? If someone was playing overly well except for on thing that was part of his meta, would you still find them (as) scummy? Sure I still don't like that he kept his BW vote on for so long and I'm still looking closely at him but other than that, he seems to be playing pretty town-like. Secondly, from some games on here, he already proved (to a point) that it was his meta that caused him to bus.

Doombunny votes Quaroth saying he's choosing between Pack and Quar for posting few opinions or new info. Doesn't mention Jedo at all. Based on his post when switching, Doom would've been the most likely to re-vote Jedo after the watcher claim. Not mentioning Jedo at all here is suspect.

I don't find him so scummy anymore. Sue me.

@Set- Other than the long bandwagon on Krypt, do you have any other reasons for thinking Jedo is scum?

I know that its a joke, but something seems off about his begging for Jedo votes. Eh, its probably nothing.

[Doombunny9]

Please elaborate. What do you find town-like about his posts?

His posts seem to come from a pro-town stance. His defenses of himself are complete and do make sense and more recently, he is beginning to do more and more scumhunting sch as his case on Twisted that is full and detailed (Which is more than I can say about some people) and he seems to be wanting and trying to catch scum rather than just sitting out in the background hiding from any more pressure.

@Quar- Who are your top 3 scumreads and why? Have you noticed anything in the thread that was interesting that no one has caught on to yet?

[Doombunny9]

@Llama- I assume with your last post that you're done rereading. If so, me and Wicked asked you some questions that you still haven't answered.

[Doombunny9]

That means by your own logic, that NS is bussing Krypt.

When I have a scumlist, I put it in order from most scummy to least scummy, not whoever is likely or unlikely to be scum with each other. Why the hell would I assume Krypt is scum before she flips and vote her "buddy"? You're currently voting for Jedo right now but think I'm scum. Does that mean you think me and Jedo are partners? What about us all together with AV?

Why is it too early to put a top scum read at L-1?

L-1 usually means claim-time and I don't want to see too many people claiming before we get enough information that points to them being scum. Its also possible for scum or a VI to quicklynch which=bad.

What is the 'right' time?

When there's been enough information to support a lynch of the person then I'd say its the right time.

#24 – Doom hems and haws, mentions a vig we could easily not have vigging NS if he’s alive later on in the game. This post rubs me wrong.

I thought I said that for this situation, I was assuming we had a vig in that post or at least a bit later. Ah, that's right, the post after my next (42)

#34 Doombuny – 4 votes on seacore

Bandwagoning during RVS is scummy now? What?

#42 OHRLY? Stating the obvious is Doom.

Responding to questions is scummy now? What is this I don't even.

#70 Doombunny - I don’t want to push the wagon, but if it sticks around, I just might hop on!

As stated above, I don't want to put anyone at L-1 early in the game.

I just skimmed through the rest since I didn't fel the need to respond to any more of it and because I'm Lazy/Somewhat in a time constraint due to Easter.

[Doombunny9]

No I out power on l-1 because he was playing poorly and I wanted him under pressure so he'd respond. It was a calculated risk. I didn't think he'd get hammered at that point so I was comfortable pushing him to l-1. I wouldn't day I didn't want him lynched t that point. I did. I just didn't think it'd happen without alot more discussion.

Earlier you said that you didn't like the Krypt wagon because it reached L-1 too fast. What was the difference between that wagon and the power one? What made you think that Power would get hammered? Did you think that Krypt might have gotten hammered?

Quar's last post also gives me bad vibes. I understand where she's coming from by saying that at this point it would make the most amount of sense to be voting Jedo but the part I don't like is that Quar seems to be catering to both the people who want to see Jedo lynched and the ones that want to see him live. She says that she thinks Jedo is scum but also that there are others she'd rather lynch if she had the chance which just looks to me as if she's trying to win over both crowds.

[Doombunny9]

I didn't say I thought Power would get hammered, I pretty implicitly said I didn't think Power would get hammered.

That was me not thinking when I posted. I meant to say: What made you think Power wouldn't get hammered (And yes, I do want an answer to that still)

Krypt raises another point- Did you think that Power wouldn't claim when you put him at L-1? Was your pressure vote really worth it? Also, why did you feel the need to put more pressure on him; Did you think he wouldn't have responded to the pressure already on him?

As per my last post, welllllp. I'm not sure how voting Jedo caters to people that want Jedo to live.

You said that there were some people you would rather lynch than Jedo which just looks like you're trying to please the people that didn't want to see Jedo lynched/Want to see someone else lynched instead.

I'm here, and I don't have much more to say.

Bull. Plenty has happened in the game and I doubt you don't have much to say about it. Try again.

[Doombunny9]

@Llama-Why did you ask for a claim from Quar when he was only at L-2? Why didn't you ask for a claim from Jedo since at the time, he had the same amount of votes?

Deadline is just around the corner so someone should hammer pretty soon here.

Sea seems pretty eager to get Jedo lynched over Quar. Whether this is because he just really, really wants Jedo lynched (See: Tunneling) or he's Quars buddy I'm unsure of.

[Doombunny9]

The latter is not an answer to the former?

Huh?

Because you are counting wrong.

According to the last vote count Jedo has 5 votes (L-2) and Quar had 4 plus Set who then voted right before you=5. How is this incorrect?

I would rather a JJ lynch by far.

Because That's what I was asking

Yes, I'm either tunnelling or scum, these are the only two possibilities Doom, good scumhunting.

I understand these are not the only two possibilities but your hard pushing for a Jedo lynch just looks kind of like begging to me which signify those two. I say beggigng because rather than try to convince people to move their votes, you're just asking people to which doesn't look to me like anything other than you desperate for a Jedo lynch.

[Doombunny9]

Upon looking back at the votecount, I forgot that Set was formerly on Jedo which accounts for why my counting was off. All that does is change the last question to: Why not ask for a claim from Jedo when he was at L-2 (When he asked from Quar)

[Doombunny9]

If anyone has visited Set, please claim now.

@Sea- Yesterday you seemed sure that Jedo was scum over Quar and tried to pull people over to the Jedo wagon. However, you also said

I don't find Jedo that scummy. I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

And then nothing about Jedo until you started voting for him because "Quar looked genuine". What made you change your mind about Jedo or if you still think he's not that scummy, what made Quar seem so town-like and genuine to you?

Don't like Llama or Twisted's posts. Llama seems too focused on one thing when it comes to Twisted and doesn't come up with any new info whereas Llama's reasoning for voting Llama is weak and seem to be more OMGUS and NK oriented than anything else.

Want to hear who these people find scummy and why: AV, Pack, Power, Sea

Will reread more later and make up my mind then.

[Doombunny9]

@Llama- Is your reasoning for voting Jedo the same as yesterday or have you seen anything new that makes you want to vote him?

@Twisted- I meant other than Power. The whole reason I asked is so that we can confirm him (Well, as best as we can at least).

Sea's vote seems off to me especially since he just confirmed that unless Set is is scumbuddy, he doesn't really think that Jedo is scum. Lynches for information alone are also generally limited to D1 so I'm not entirely sure what to make of his vote. @Sea- What made the time when Jedo's wagon fell apart a bad time? What would you consider to be an ok time for it to fall apart?

[Doombunny9]

@Pack- Why ignore the people in your QTs (Or at least Krypt)? According to your posting history, you've been online during the night phase so I see no reason for you to have ignored the people in your QTs.

Nice misrep Doom. I said that Set is less scummy if Jedo is innocent, not the other way around.

Eh, I just assumed it went both ways. Ah well, I probably shouldn't have made that assumption anyway.

@Sea- I think I may just me missing some but could you point out the people who said would vote Jedo at deadline? I only count two-One of whom is confirmed town. If so, it doesn't seem much to build a case on.

[Doombunny9]

@Sea- I think I may just me missing some but

could you point out the people who said would vote Jedo at deadline?

I only count two-One of whom is confirmed town. If so, it doesn't seem much to build a case on.

[Doombunny9]

Weird, through a fairly quick skim, the only person I can find saying that they'd switch back to Jedo to avoid the deadline is Set,

Doom. which two are you counting? And who is confirmed town???

I counted Set and Quar (Who is conf town for obvious reasons)

Anyhow, if you did count only Set then why state

Jedo was established towards the end of the day as the "default lynch" with

multiple people

saying they'd vote for him at deadline if necessary. Most of these people then went and voted for an unlikely wagon.

and

Combined with this, there were

a bunch of people

(and I'll search through the list and find them later) that said "I'll vote for Jedo at deadline" and none of that happened.

lolwut?

[Doombunny9]

It's a reason to post N0, definitely - and N0 I did. N1 I didn't have anything to comment on, so I didn't bother. Obviously if I was in a situation where I needed to make sure my thoughts were heard in the morning, I'd tell my neighbors.

I think you're missing the whole concept of what a neighbor is for Hint: Its free conversation. At night. When you have the information of yesterdays flip.

Sea's vote for Jedo still seems odd to me. His reasoning being that it fell apart when it shouldn't have (But that is somewhat untrue as the only person who made it "fall apart" was Set) and that he'd get more information from a Jedo lynch...About Set. His other posts as well suggest to me that he really wants to see Set lynched instead of Jedo so I'm unsure as to why he's not voting Set?

@Sea- What other information do you hope to get from a Jedo lynch that would help you out?

[Doombunny9]

I'm having mixed feelings about Power. On the one hand, it seems really convenient to have told us just now but on the other hand, like Set pointed out, I don't really see much of a scum motivation for it.

@Power- When did you "remember" your restriction? Why didn't you tell us about it in ISO post 19 when you said you watched Set?
@AV+Pack- If Power is scum, why do you think he chose to make up a restriction rather than just make up a reason why he chose Set?

[Doombunny9]

He'd have to come up with reasons for every visit he ever does.

It's not really harder than "I think X is town. therefore I watched him". Making up this restriction is way more elaborate than any of his reasons would have to be.

2: I wasn't sure how the players would react

So you just decided not to say anything and keep information from the town? Even if you're not scum, you're playing very anti-town right now. However, since Llama (And Sea somewhat) confirmed that you are probably telling the truth about only being able to target neighbors, I wouldn't mind letting you live another day or two.

@Sea- What other information do you hope to get from a Jedo lynch that would help you out?

[Doombunny9]

I don't really like how Grey is saying that he

is

town but both him and Jedo haven't done all too much that suggests to me that he's scummy so I'd be willing to say he's just cocky town.

he's seeing plots in kryptinen's posts that would never work outside a nineteenth century adventure novel, and basing his entire case on them.

But-but, in post 47 you said he was making good points and voted Krypt for the same reasoning.

Contrast with his response to my case on him at #144, which he opens with: "Packbat's case on me is stupid though."

What about this?

Look at the way he talks about Jedo the Jedi. He both finds JJ scummy (#144 again) and doesn't (#173) and "that looks like a contradiction, but it isn't really" (#187).

This sounds familiar... Almost like what I was geting at this whole time... Why only just now mention it?

Also, a few things I noticed in his post before this one:

You're saying I'm scum ... because I didn't post in the QT? After saying I wouldn't post in the QT?

Woah, woah, woah... When did this happen? You never said you wouldn't post in your QTs. Care to point out where you did?

On a night when Jedo the Jedi didn't post in the QT either, at all?

And Jedo has to do with your lack of QT posting how...?

I think I've been putting off voting long enough and Pack seems to be a good candidate. Other than this (^), he hasn't been contributing to his QTs, has been coasting most of D1, and a lot of his cases on people borrow heavily from other people's scumhunting.

Vote: Pack

[Doombunny9]

Pace Setael, I was wagoning to get out of RVS. That frequently means accepting poor reasoning.

You said word for word "I think Seacore has a good point". That doesn't look like you thought his reasoning was all that poor. I smell a contradiction!

...in the QT. GreyICE said this.

You posted something lame about not wanting to talk in the QT N0 and posted NOTHING last night.

I may just be misunderstanding your post here. when you said "After saying I wouldn't post in the QT?" does this mean that in the thread you said you wouldn't post anything that night or you said "I won't post" (Or something similar) in your QT with him.

He's saying, "this thing you did is a scummy thing to do" when his slot did the same thing. If he's town, that rather implies that town does the same thing - undermining his point.

Please notice that Jedo replaced out. Does this not suggest that he couldn't post in the QT due to other reasons?

I'm swish with a seacore lynch
had a small gut read of mafioso since he self voted first post

Major scum-points here. Twisted is continuing with his tradition of fluffy posts and a lack of contributions but this post is looking really bad. The only reasoning he provides is "He self voted during RVS" which really isn't all too scummy. He also hasn't even mentioned Sea in a long time so I'm forced to assume that his read on Sea is still just a small gut read. This really just looks like a bandwagon vote with no reason behind it than anything else.

I had a long thought-process, and I'm not even gonna aptemt to explain it.

Oh, please do. I'm interested and keeping information from the rest of the town isn't really all that good.

[Doombunny9]

'Good' means 'worth prying at', not 'unquestionable proof'. In retrospect, I don't think it holds up.

Even if it were just wroth a look at, it still must not be absolutely poor reasoning if you were willing to go along with it. Why didn't you call it out then for being poor reasoning?

Sea's vote still looks odd. Other than some reads that he "can't really explain", it just looks like he's trying to get information on Set and finds Set really scummy. How a Jedo/Grey lynch would give him more information about Set than a Set lynch is beyond me. He just looks like he's trying to get on the easy wagon (Since it had a good amount of people on it yesterday) than the person he really wants to lynch. This would also give him a good excuse in the future if Grey gets lynched as he'd be able to pull off the "Oh, I just wanted information. I didn't even find him scummy!" move. At this point I'd be fine with either a Sea or a Pack lynch.

[Doombunny9]

I find Jedo/GI a suitable lynch on it's own. I really think it'll flip scum.

What happened to "I didn't find Jedo that scummy on his own"? Where did your opinion on the Jedo slot change from "Voting him to get information" to "Voting him because he's scummy"?

There's a difference between "poor" and "absolutely poor", and there's a difference between RVS wagon votes and serious votes. On a scale from 1 to 10, it counted as a 2 or 3, which was pretty good compared to the other wagons available.

Tell me Pack, if Sea's vote was better than other ones at the time, what makes it so bad now? If his case was better than any other ones at the time and was the one most worth pursuing, how is that scummy?

[Doombunny9]

This is the most understandable version I can give you:
Since a question like "Why did you watch XXX" would most likely come up anyway, my gut told me to not do it directly

This is terribad. I can see NO protown reason for this at all, gut or otherwise. I can safely say your role is the only thing keeping me from voting you at this time.

@Sea- Other than 'The Jedo wagon "fell apart"' (Because apparently 1 person not voting when he said he would automatically makes it fall apart) you haven't really given much of a case on Jedo. Based off of D1 information-Is this all you have on him?

What makes it become scummy is the duration - he didn't unvote until #171

Other people have kept their votes on Krypt for a long amount of time as well (Glass/Llama, AV, Jedo) Yet you didn't really mention any of these people. Why is that?

[Doombunny9]

Could you link me to where Seacore said this?

In Sea iso #34 he votes Jedo because the Jedo wagon "fell apart" when it shouldn't have and because it would give more information (Which is flimsy at best). When asked about the information he was going to get he says in post 40 that the information he was going to get was a) Things he couldn't talk about because they'd be ruined and b) Information about Set. Since getting information about Set was one of the larger parts of why he was voting Jedo, I saw no reason he would vote Jedo over Set since a Set lynch would give more information about Set.

And you wouldn't be fine with a Set/Nacho/Llama/krypt/AV/Icey/Spoon/Powerrox lynch?

If the people there were the only choices I'd be fine with them. Its better than a NL. What I meant to say was that as of right now, I would like to see either Pack or Sea as the lynch today.

I actually can completely see Sea-Set pairing at this point given the convo that I had with Sea last night.

Why is this just now being mentioned? Please tell us about it.

[Doombunny9]

L-2 for Sea.

@Pack- Can you explain what you mean by a reasonable play? What makes Sea's case unreasonable compared to everyone elses?

@Set- What changed in between this post and your last that made you want to vote Sea? Oh that's right. Nothing except that Sea has more votes on him now. His newest "reasoning" on Grey in this last post is full of OMGUS it's hilarious. Rather than actually push a case on Grey or Sea he just calls them obvscum.

Unvote, Vote: Set

Packs latest posting is good anyway and I was getting less of a scumread on him... If only he would do more scumhunting.

[Doombunny9]

What are you talking about Doom? Seacore is scum and Grey is scum. Seacore is more likely to be lynched today, so I'm voting him. What's so hard to understand about that?

I understand it just fine. However, this play of yours (And Sea too) doesn't look pro-town to me, rather opportunistic scum. Both of you are just jumping on whatever large wagon you agree while pushing for no single person in particular.

Please point out what you are calling omgus. Grey's slot is scum independent of his suspicion of me.

I found your latest revelation to have an element of OMGUS when you said "You're just trying to dismiss my case against Jedo, but calling me a bitch and telling everyone my posts are worthless does not make them go away. Your slot is scum and that doesn't change just because you replace in." which just looks to me as if you're calling him scum because he doesn't like your posts. It may be a bit of a stretch on its own but with the rest of the information on you, it fits right in.

[Doombunny9]

@Sea- You build a case on the person you most want lynched and vote them. For example, from your posts I can tell that your strongest read was on Set yet you continued to vote Jedo because he was the largest wagon. If you wanted a Set wagon to form, wouldn't it make the most sense to be voting him?

@Set-Who do you currently find more scummy, the Grey/Jedo slot or the Sea slot? When did you start finding Sea "obvscum"?

Unvote

Need to read Sea and Set in iso later.

[Doombunny9]

@AV- I know that there are more than one scum but there is also the chance (A really good one in fact) that someones scumreads have some town in there. Unless Set/Sea are 100% sure that they've nailed two scum (Which is either a) A lucky investigative role on at least D3 or b) A tunneler) then they should be voting their main suspect rather than just whoever (There are exceptions such as if someone needs a hammer or it is close to deadline but I see none of these happening at this point). Sure someone can be pushing a case on 2+ people but I don't think town should just be throwing their votes down on anyone with a large enough wagon.

@Twisted- Amazing contribution (Not). Now, two questions for you (One of which someone asked before and you haven't answered):

1. Can you make a case on why you think Sea is scummy other than "He voted himself and I wanted to jump on a bandwagon to pull off a mislynch herp derp"?
2. Why do you think Set is town?

Vote: Twisted

This guy really needs to post more content.

[Doombunny9]

^ AV=Krypt

[Doombunny9]

This is blatantly false. I have been pushing for a lynch of Jedo or Seacore. A wagon on anyone else would not interest me nearly as much.

I see what you mean. I should have been more clear when I said "Watever large wagon you agree with"

What is "the rest of the information" you are referring to, because yeah. That's a huge stretch.

I was talking about the rest of the case on you and why the people think you're scummy. Alone it's a weak point to make but its defiantly worth a look with all of the other stuff on you.

It's not like I all of a sudden found Sea obvscum. I suspected Seacore from the start of the Krypt wagon, as I stated upon replacing in. I started becoming more sure about him based on his weird play re: Jedo, particularly this:

I understand this but about where (Not looking for an exact place, a range of posts would be fine) did you find him to be obvscum rather than just a suspicious person?

[Doombunny9]

I, for one, would like to see you elaborate on "all the other stuff". You still haven't told us what this stuff is - at the very least you could post links.

It begins near the end of D1/beginning of D2 where he and Sea start heavily voicing their feelings that each other is scummy at close times. However, other than a short time near the end of D1 where Set votes Sea for a short time and recently, they seem to ignore voting each other and instead just throw things back and forth between them. (Actually, I've missed something in here until now which I will address at the end of this case). None of them really push the Jedo case either except in a few select areas and instead focus on each other, possibly setting up a case where if Jedo got mislynched, they could say "Oh, but what I

really

wanted was for Set/Sea to get lynched, not Jedo!". Overall, their points on Jedo just seem like a place to park their votes while they try and bus or cast suspicion on each other. other than that, Set doesn't seem to be doing any solid scumhunting. Other than responding to other peoples posts directed toward him, he just seems to be passivly participating in the game, not doing much of his own scumhunting.

Anyway, the question I wanted to ask set was- In ISO post #10 you state "there was a possibility for Seacore momentum if other people besides me were finding him scummy but hadn't thought a wagon on him was a possibility." Why is this the case on D1 but not now?

That's a distinction rather akin to that between "he shot a man" and "he shot a man charging at him with a knife".

I would agree with you but then I decided to take back everything I've said when I saw Sea's post in which he does exactly what I said.

I guess I've been more confident he's scum ever since these posts and his crappy explanation of it:

This still isn't really what I was looking for. Let me try something else. How scummy did you find Sea in these periods:

-When you replaced in
-Near the end of D1
-Near the beginning of D2
-Now

[Doombunny9]

What happened to those rereads...?

I've done them. I haven't found anything new that I haven't already talked about except that if I were to choose between the two, it would have to be Sea.

[Doombunny9]

Why?

His reasoning for wanting to see a Jedo lynch is much, much crappier than Set's. His main reasons, if you recall are 1) To find more information (On Set mostly), and 2) Because the Jedo wagon "fell apart" (See: One person didn't vote him when he said he would. That person being Set). This case on Jedo wasn't even really a case on Jedo, it was on Set yet he parked his vote on Jedo anyway without pushing for it but rather pushing for a Set lynch. His even posts are even worse, especially the one on Pack where he doesn't even seem to make an attempt to hide the fact that he's just following everyone else.

(a) the odd comment about vigging Nacho and (b) not seeming to realize that LyLo is too late to kill the claimed Survivor.

I could have sworn someone already questioned me about this. At the time (And I beleive I said so in the next post or somewhere close. Ah well, too lazy to check ATM) I was assuming we had a vig for simplicities sake and a lynch would be just as fine. I also beleive I stated that we'd need to do it close to an endgame situation, not during an endgame situation.

[Doombunny9]

@Set- Was your growing suspicions on Sea fairly steady or were there certain events/posts that really stuck out and made him jump out?

@Twisted- I could have sworn I've asked you some questions? Feel like answering them? I'm beginning to doubt that you're even reading the thread.

[Doombunny9]

I'm lost for words over how terrible this post is.

1) not easily. No. Gut maybe

Is Sea really your best read right now? Who are the top two people you find scummy right now (As in, actually scummy, ignoring gut-reads), why are they your top scumpicks, and why is Sea a better lynch than them?

2) I've played with set before. Set played similarly

Have you ever played in or seen a game where Set was scum? Did he play the same way then?

wicked convinced me not to. He had a very strong town read on JJ

How did Wicked convince you not to? Was it due to a case he made in Jedo's favor or just due to his list where he put Jedo near the town spectrum?

[Doombunny9]

@Twisted- I asked you three questions. You ignored each of them. Feel like answering?

no, but wicked's reads are probably better than mine, or the scum wouldn't have killed him

Can we lynch this guy yet?

who do i think is scum? I'm not sure.

Then I recommend you start reading. If you only have one suspect in 26 pages, we got some problems.

[Doombunny9]

I am currently unwilling to hammer Sea unless something happens that makes him look scummier to me than Twisted or if his wagon is still going and its close to deadline.

Doom and Llama, I'd be cool with a TS lynch, as I've said, but I'd prefer a Set lynch, any reason why you guys aren't for it?

Set is currently my #3 scum read behind you (2) and Twisted (1). I'd be fine with a Set lynch but I'd much rather see a Twisted lynch.

[Doombunny9]

What's your feelings on Pack, doom?

I have mixed feelings about him but overall he's still fairly scummy. His defenses when I was questioning him and others were talking to him seem like they're coming from a pro-town mindset but at the same time, he seems to be actively avoiding to post content until Nacho put pressure on him long enough and even then it took much too long and he seemed to be ignoring Nacho in places. He has plenty of time to post yet when Nacho kept asking him to give a reread, he didn't. Finally, he seems to be passively scumhunting meaning, he just picks up on what other people are doing and calls them scummy for it rather than actually questioning and putting pressure on people. Sure he may do it at times but not enough for my liking.

[Doombunny9]

Grey, you do realize that Set and Sea AREN'T scum together, right?

Now I'm curious. Why is this?

As for why the seacore wagon is as scary as it gets:

Packbat, Twistedspoon, AurorusVox, Setael, Powerrox93

Oh god, I see what you mean now.

good to know we're only up against one scum :/

Good to know your only reasoning is still only "Slight gut read". Unless I see some more participation from you, I'm going to ask for a full reread of the game and your top two suspects with solid reasoning behind it. Heck, at this point I'd be happy if you only reread Sea's ISO and came up with a case for him.

[Doombunny9]

Why are you concerned about my reads when your strongest is a slight gut read?

This^ Surely you've seen SOMETHING scummy enough to comment on. Pretty please?

@Llama- Is your case on AV the same as last time or is there any new information you have?

[Doombunny9]

Are you going to commit to any scum reads besides my RVS vote?

This right here ^

Actually, I'd be happy to vote Sea/Set since TS is more vigbait anything else (Any vigs out there, you'd better get the picture)

Unvote, Vote: Set

seeing as how the people on the Sea wagon are overall scummy. (L-2 I think)

[Doombunny9]

That vote was scumtastic.

Oh really now? Care to explain? This just looks like OMGUS to me which makes me even more sure of my vote.

Please provide your reasoning for your scum reads on Packbat, Twistedspoon, AurorusVox, Powerrox93 and myself.

Three of the five I've already done so you can just reread. Power I've talked about a bit yesterday and would be pretty scummy if I didn't believe his claim. AV hasn't been doing much scumhunting wise and has mainly been using other peoples cases and voting where everyone else is. Her vote on Power earlier today just seemed like she was trying to lynch the easy target despite what information there is. His Krypt case which he jumped onto when the Power one wasn't getting any speed was crap and consisted of mostly D1 stuff which he admitted could be from tunneling and "OMG you misrep!". When the Sea wagon grew he suddenly got a scumread on him and voted him with no real case other than what others have been saying. Even in his latest post he just jumps on the latest wagon gaining speed (See: Bussing) with no case other than "Setael is a good vote". Its also amazing how he forgot to mention that he'd prefer a Set lynch over a Sea lynch until this point.

Actually, AV is more scummy than I even remembered him as.

Anyway, I think it's claim time.

[Doombunny9]

There is good reason for distrusting Powerrox, thanks to the awful nature of his claim AS I'VE EXPLAINED MULTIPLE TIMES and as you've consistently failed to engage with in any real way.

I understand this but it seems rather opportunistic especially since, with time, his role can be easily confirmed.

My Krypt case is based on his overall play, as should be patently obvious to anyone who reads my posts about him.

Fair enough I suppose.

I said in my last post before I went V/LA that Set and Seacore were EQUALLY scummy for doing the same thing; I can't have said Set makes a better lynch than Seacore until now because I didn't think it until I came back. Can you explain why that's scummy?

Because I think it would have to be pretty lucky for you to have changed your reads out of nowhere to where Set is more scummy than sea right when his wagon was building. Why did you just recently find Set to be a better lynch rather than notice all of what you've said before?

@Set- Like set said, are you a neighbor doctor or normal? Also, why protect Power over anyone else? Also, way to ignore my question.

[Doombunny9]

Because all the stuff that makes him a better lynch has only happened AFTER I went V/LA so this was the first point I could say anything about it?

Alright. I suppose I forgot about your V/LA (Derp).

your vote is scummy because instead of giving reasons for thinking I'm scum, you vote me because you suspect those on the Seacore wagon.

Didn't I already give reasons in a post before? Read the thread moar. You and Sea were close in my suspicions with Sea just winning out scumhunting wise. However, when the majority of the people I found scummy (You, Pack, TS), I think its easy to see why I chose you.

[Doombunny9]

Uh no. I didn't recall you ever stating you were suspicious of me, so ISO'd you and I still don't see anything. Care to link to it if I'm missing it? As far as I can see you went from no comment on me to voting me because you are suspicious of all the Seacore voters (which is also sheeping Grey btw).

ISO #63 is where I made my case on you. Thanks for the misrep.

@Nacho- Thank you for your full and detailed case on me.

[Doombunny9]

I'm sorry I have to do this but due to things out of my control, I won't be able to dedicate as much time to this game as I probably should and it would be best for me if I replace out.