Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Eleison]

Perhaps we should all try something here.

Vote: PMysterious

[Eleison]

Nothing drives a player to provide quality performance, opinions and information quite like being a small handful of votes from Lynching. I have another reason, but for the sake of obscurity, i'd feel more comfortable revealing that later.

[Eleison]

You know what, Mae? Just for that, I'll keep it to myself. Try thinking about it, instead of blindly assuming stupidity. That goes for anyone really.

Or better yet, don't. It doesn't matter.

[Eleison]

Lol at mechanics discussion. Loller at numbers discussion. Lollest at the amount of attempted logic up to page 3.

It's like watching children bicker over the rules in gym class freezetag. I see more arguing over meta and interpretation of post "sarcasm" than anything else.

In fact, I should ask for a raise of hands, for anyone who is actually trying right now.

[Eleison]

First off, I'm not one to jump into discussion of mechanics and explain the things that are easily researchable by simply reading past games.

Second, I am indeed doing things. I'm just saving myself from being trapped in the early game antitown discussion that is already happening.

My plan seems to have worked, and if no one noticed, I'd be kind of surprised. RVS has essentially ended now. Whoever said I wad reaction fishing was half right. The other half was attempting to create ACTUAL discussion about others reactions to reactions aimed at me. The goal was there, but obviously, I won't just go out and say "oh hey guys I wanna see how you react to my vote on someone who already has a vote, when I say the words, "I have a plan.""

Why are we applying no pressure, and analyzing meta from ppl with one/two shared games under their belt? Someone please explain the incredible validity that provides.

Who voted for who based on the assumption that X is scum, vs X can provide us with knowledge? Don't answer that aloud, just think about this to yourself.

And why is no one in serious consideration of an early Day1 wagon for informational purposes? Everyone I see, has generally played in a way that gaurentees that the first person with a wagon on him/her won't be lynched same day. It's stupid, to apply pressure, and take it off on the grounds that it's too early, not enough discussion, and empty threat. The old "no one would hammer them, and if they do they're scum" is a wasted argument because no one actually applies it to D1 info gathering. It's a waste of time to apply pressure and not follow through, and worse yet, it's common gameplay to pass off empty threats as legit scumhunting.

Quite frankly, I see it as a waste of time and effort. Voting for information and voting for scum are two different things.


ALL THAT BEING SAID!

Shinori, explain yourself and your crappily defended vote. FOS applied.

Mae and mollie, quit intown bickering.

[Eleison]

Well being as you had 2 whole posts for me to attempt to analyze prior to me posting my block of general concepts that is not being exhibited by anyone really, I'm not sure what you want exactly. My bitching on game mechanics that no one is doing is different from "oh I'll go to the wiki and look it up", and general meta analysis which as you said, tends to drive noobs to being lynched, regardless of their alignment. Bringing up role speculation and size of the scumteam is hardly indicative of learning anything town, which I'm sure you know, and I'm sure reading through two of a hundred games before this would clarify, since ppl always seem to ask that. Hell, the wiki even generally mentions it, but why openly say you are going to cite it, when you could just do it? Useless trash posts that accomplish nothing but generate offtopic posting, which is not related to actual scumhunting. I'm shocked that I need to point this out.

I also did ask a few questions on there, that I actually expect answers to. Not because I want in your heads, but because: One, it promotes discussion, and discussion is far from antitown. Two, discussion leads to reads, which is even further from antitown.

Why am I ignoring Smash? Read below, but replace the post counts with accurate numbers.

Why am I not voting you? Why am I ignoring your sarcastic jump from your second of four posts? Because I don't find you scummy, obviously, and I don't feel as though pressuring you at this moment will accomplish anything, as you are not carrying the most votes. However, discussing my reads on who I think is town is irrelevant, as it doesn't actually help find scum. I'll stick to primarily posting reads on scum, kicking a few heads to knock sense back into the picture, and voting for who I think is scum, or who I think will inevitably draw out scum.

[Eleison]

I strongly disagree with this, I think it is always good for town to find each other that is how town wins games by voting as a block.

what makes you think that maenara and I are both town.

Uhh, ok. Perhaps you want scum to know exactly what it is that you're thinking? If you're outing all your reads as to who is town as well as scum, you are giving scum exactly what they need in order to shift their gameplay to act more like those who you consider town, blend in, and be more successful in forcing mislynches while going along unnoticed.

Whereas, if you focus on finding scumtells from players, and highlight those instead of all the towntells that you and everyone else may have, then scum isn't at liberty to just start acting like the guy you and say, four others, designate as Town. They have to figure it out for themselves, which means they're more likely to shift their tone or shift their thought processes or make ridiculous leaps in logic in order to try to appear town.

Simply put: Point out that the "Bad guys" are "bad" by finding evidence against them, and voting for them/FOS'ing them (if more than one is evident). It's hard for bad guys to blend in when you're not pointing out why the "good guys" are "good". Just keep those thoughts to yourself. If it's that obvious to you, it's likely obvious to other players as well.

I think I've seen enough that I have a few suspicions as to who I believe is town, and who I believe is scum.

As for me thoughts on you and Mae being town? Let me restate what I've already said, in more of a little chart.

Who I will openly declare that I think is scum:
Telo (for #88 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4323911 and #93 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php? )p=4324085#p4324085
EvilPacman (for #78 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4323297

Who I used as a form of a scapegoat, to find scum:
PMysterious

Who I think is town:
None of your business.

[Eleison]

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

I don't necesarrily have a town read on them. I just want them to stop bickering as if they were. Because I really don't see it actually moving anything forward.

[Eleison]

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

I don't necesarrily have a town read on them. I just want them to stop bickering as if they were. Because I really don't see it actually moving anything forward.

wait a minute, I placed a vote on maenara how is that not moving the game forward

Tell me though, how is that helping to scumhunt?



Ok. Reread things. I've got some things to address.

This is effort.

I'll read stuff and post something later tonight.

UNVOTE
VOTE SHINORI

What are your thoughts so far?

[Eleison]

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

I don't necesarrily have a town read on them. I just want them to stop bickering as if they were. Because I really don't see it actually moving anything forward.

wait a minute, I placed a vote on maenara how is that not moving the game forward

Tell me though, how is that helping to scumhunt?

maybe you coud start by expaining why placing a vote on a player you find scummy is not scumhunting?

I am genuinely confused by this.

There are lots of reasons people vote for other people. People don't always vote just because they feel someone is scummy. Sometimes people's emotions get in the way, and they vote for another player simply because they aren't happy with X or Y at that given moment, or because of a "hunch".

However, you just answered my question within your question. I just wanted clarification is all.

[Eleison]

I get suspicious of vote trading. So I'm keeping an eye on maenara/pirate mollie and theomaoaner/jun.

This is so waffly. Why are you being so waffly. Do you have a serious opinion on either of them, or are you only going to "keep an eye" on them, and hop on a wagon and sheep when enough votes build up. This is extremely scummy to me.

I'm finding Jun, Telo and Pirate scummy at the moment. I will elaborate more when I'm off work. PMysterious, its page 6. You better have some reads.

fos this. you are going after low hanging fruit.

I am new, telo is new (saw her in intros) and jun kind of reads as fairly new. do you seriously think that the gm would have 3 newbs as scum against a wall of experienced town? while I generally think that reverse engineering the gm's brain leads to madness, it looks like you are trying to stack your options for a future lynch with a possible bus somewhere in there.

will be interesting to see what you come up with.

working on my own wot.

I think it's ridiculous for you to assume that the Host would not do that. Are you absolutely sure that it's a tailor'd community where newbs aren't scum on their first game? I think that's a bold assumption to make, especially as a defense for yourself and other players.

Noviceness is not indicative of alignment. Ever.

What are your thoughts so far?

Who I think is town:
None of your business.

You have

ABSOLUTELY

no right to pressure someone with possibly concealing information considering that you're actively flaunting that you're concealing it.

It's Eleison, not Elesion. I know what you meant though.

Not quite. You're saying i'm concealing information, but you neglected to quote my entire post, which included my thoughts on scum. You don't need to jump on me for only acknowledging a part of my post, when other parts of my post were of a related matter. I can requote my post that shows me outting some information too, if you would like?

[Eleison]

I'm really having trouble getting any reads on quite a few of the players here. However, after doing a few Isos in a feeble attempt to be able to do anything at all, here's what I've got.

Spoiler: Town (Strongest to weakest)

Hikari
evilpacman18
Slandaar
McStab
Smashbard
Telo
Thurhame
Jun

Spoiler: Scum (Strongest to weakest)

NJAC
Eleison
pirate mollie
Jun
Theomoaner

Spoiler: Needs more activity

Dividizzle
Shinori
PMysterious

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand, she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in Uuorder to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I genuinely like this quality of post, and find it to be accurate and holding a fair stance on opinions, and backing up a vote with good logic, in a,nonaggressive way. And tbh, you have me convinced on NJAC. While my thoughts are aimed at intentionally inactive Shinori, and pretty much anyone who uses novicedom as an excuse for innocence (as I've called out before), I am drawn to your accurate argument on the ever-so defensive vote of NJAC.

Mae made probably the best Quality post of this game thus far. I'd post far more like this, but the amount if oversensitivity combined with inactivity in the this game irked me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

On the flipside; Mae, I really don't understand how you think me, or anyone for that matter, would crumb a role within the first page of the game, unless it was an antitownrole (in which, it would be wiser to out that on d1 asap, imo). When I said plan, it was in regards to reaction fishing and ending RVS more quickly, and at the time, it was simple RVS for a small collective of the players here. Heck, it was meant to draw attention and speculation yes, but in a way that a bulldozer blasts through a grocery store wall. In an effort to draw attention, discussion was generated towards me, which led to responses, and our game built off of that. Perhaps it was not the best way to kill rvs before it started, but you can't deny that I failed in my goal.

[Eleison]

Nope, buddying won't work.

Also, your arguments against you breadcrumbing a role on P1 is based on the assumption that you are not, in fact, an idiot. The arguments for you doing so are based on empirical evidence.

Not really in to joining games like this to make myself look stupid by looking at only one side of the coin, forever.

And anyone could've posted like that. Thing is, you did. I acknowledged it and praised good explainations.

Ironically, you think I'm scum, whereas I don't think the same of you. And I admit I'm human, and can adapt to what happens around me. My reads actually changed. It's not sone marvel concept, it's genuine human logic. Sometimes, things change. In court, new evidence is brought up by a testimonial of a witness or third party. Minds change. Are you saying that the above isn't possible without ulterior motives and deception?

And even moreso, if I'm this "idiot" that you say I am, I may as well be role hinting, buddying, sheeping, roleclaiming, RVS'ing still, and votehopping after every other post without the slightest bit of justification, then not defending myself and ignoring any attention directed towards me, and finally, using a newbie card as means to justify innocence. That's an idiot.

Stop looking at this like players either "are or are not, therefore will forever be or not be" idiots.

--

I'm open to contiuing my defense for why RVS is better off ignored, and why outting mass town reads early game, especially without scumreads is poor play.

I'm also open to argue that the noob card, D1role speculation and setup decision, posts that promise activity and aren't followed with any, and AtE, all as anti town (because promoting offtopic/anti town conversation is distracting town from actual scumhunting). These are scumtells. And who are primary victims of this, in this game so far? In order of severity (and thus, scumminess)

:::Most
NJAC
Telo
Shinori
Pmyst
:::Middling
Pirate
Theo
Jun
:::Least

No one cares about Shinori wasting our time by giving us promises to break, so I pulled my vote for him and voted for NJAC, who voted badly. However, upon ISO'ING, Telo and his lovely Jun RVS, has yet to give a reason to it. I pull my vote to Telo, for being active, and yet still contributing nothing towards actual scumhunting. By actively posting, but not contributing any real opinions and hovering on a weakly argued RVS from days ago, (s)he is pretty easily getting away with doing nothing. Antitown? Cheque. Scummy? Cheque.

UNVOTE
VOTE: TELO

[Eleison]

And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

Thanks for the clarification on your gender. I won't mistake that anymore. But to business.

So, you still have no major opinions on possible scum, and prefer to camp on your RVS vote that, by now, could have an attempted justification?

I'm not calling out that it was weakly argued RVS. RVS isn't really a strong argument. I'm calling out that your RVS is still your only vote, and you've managed to kinda sorta maybe point a finger at a few people. After 9 pages of activity. To add to that, you STILL have your vote on Jun, which at this point, has yet to be explained why. Why do you still have your RVS vote on Jun? Has nothing happened to this point that makes you want to shift your vote around? If you still think Jun is the scummiest person around, or at least is 100% worth your vote, could you at least say so? You haven't mentioned a notable case against Jun, so it's hard to really read your vote as justified when other players are easily able to form hard cases and justifiable reasoning. If anything, you camping on Jun since RVS indicates to me either apathy (antitown / scum), you know something we don't (scum), skimreading (antitown / scum), inactivity (null tell) or noviceness (null tell). I could go on, but I think you get my point.

[Eleison]

Unvote
Vote: Eleison

Sorry if this has already been mentioned as I read a little bit briefly while catching up but I am suspicious of Eleison's firm approval of Maenara's scum, town, inactivity list, given the fact that he is listed as number two on that list.

@Eleison: if you like those lists, how do you explain you appearing as scum to him?

First off, I brought back my post to highlight that I think the quality of the post is the strong point. I pointed out that his understanding of me being scum was presumptuous, and I put my thoughts up against both points which were made against me, and designated me as scum. I don't know how to make it more clear; maybe I could say it like "i am not scum. Your reasons, while argued well and holding proper grammar, are still flawed in the mind of the person you are accusing". If I look like scum because my very first post on page 1 appeared to have rolecrumbs in it, then I dunno...I'd really consider the likelyhood and legit possibility of that even occurring.

And while I don't agree with all of her points, as I said, I agree with the point against NJAC. While my vote was sitting on Shinori, Mae came up with an argument that was more than half-assed, !!and made sense!! (big one here), so I voted. I later realized that telo was acting more like what I'd expect scum to act like, so I moved my vote. I haven't given up on NJAC, and unless something changes, d2 will have my vote parked on him.

Here, read below, now that I restated my thoughts on Mae's post.

I'm really having trouble getting any reads on quite a few of the players here. However, after doing a few Isos in a feeble attempt to be able to do anything at all, here's what I've got.

Spoiler: Town (Strongest to weakest)

Hikari
evilpacman18
Slandaar
McStab
Smashbard
Telo
Thurhame
Jun

Spoiler: Scum (Strongest to weakest)

NJAC
Eleison
pirate mollie
Jun
Theomoaner

Spoiler: Needs more activity

Dividizzle
Shinori
PMysterious

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand, she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in Uuorder to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I genuinely like this quality of post, and find it to be accurate and holding a fair stance on opinions, and backing up a vote with good logic, in a,nonaggressive way. And tbh, you have me convinced on NJAC. While my thoughts are aimed at intentionally inactive Shinori, and pretty much anyone who uses novicedom as an excuse for innocence (as I've called out before), I am drawn to your accurate argument on the ever-so defensive vote of NJAC.

Mae made probably the best Quality post of this game thus far. I'd post far more like this, but the amount if oversensitivity combined with inactivity in the this game irked me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

On the flipside; Mae, I really don't understand how you think me, or anyone for that matter, would crumb a role within the first page of the game, unless it was an antitownrole (in which, it would be wiser to out that on d1 asap, imo). When I said plan, it was in regards to reaction fishing and ending RVS more quickly, and at the time, it was simple RVS for a small collective of the players here. Heck, it was meant to draw attention and speculation yes, but in a way that a bulldozer blasts through a grocery store wall. In an effort to draw attention, discussion was generated towards me, which led to responses, and our game built off of that. Perhaps it was not the best way to kill rvs before it started, but you can't deny that I failed in my goal.

Do you see now, upon rereading, that I didn't just go "oh mae, Uu are so beautiful and you are so smart, I agree with everything you said about everyone"?

[Eleison]

Can you say a tad bit more than nothing from now on?

IMPOSSIBRUUUU

And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

Thanks for the clarification on your gender. I won't mistake that anymore. But to business.

So, you still have no major opinions on possible scum, and prefer to camp on your RVS vote that, by now, could have an attempted justification?

I'm not calling out that it was weakly argued RVS. RVS isn't really a strong argument. I'm calling out that your RVS is still your only vote, and you've managed to kinda sorta maybe point a finger at a few people. After 9 pages of activity. To add to that, you STILL have your vote on Jun, which at this point, has yet to be explained why. Why do you still have your RVS vote on Jun? Has nothing happened to this point that makes you want to shift your vote around? If you still think Jun is the scummiest person around, or at least is 100% worth your vote, could you at least say so? You haven't mentioned a notable case against Jun, so it's hard to really read your vote as justified when other players are easily able to form hard cases and justifiable reasoning. If anything, you camping on Jun since RVS indicates to me either apathy (antitown / scum), you know something we don't (scum), skimreading (antitown / scum), inactivity (null tell) or noviceness (null tell). I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Why did you ignore me Elie? You're off on your town meta and you are defintely being a lot more aggresive. Something about you seems off. Part of it is gut feeling.

However after ISOing you I find this wierd. You voted: Pm(RVS) - Me(Wanting me to say stuff) - NJAC(You said Mae had you convinced on this, feels like just sheeping) - SIX POSTS LATER you swap to TELO(You are supposedly voting because their only vote is RVS which I don't see as the best vote. Why not me in that situation? I've been less active and really don't have any sort of viable vote with reasoning down.)

Yeah. Your vote hop from NJAC to TELO is terrible and you defintely have my attention. I don't like it.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Eleison

I'm fine with this vote now and other people should hop onto this.

Hey look who made it to the party. Can you tell I'm on my phone, from the annoyingly long quote strings?

Ok so let me get this straight. My.first vote was ok in your mind.. Even my second, on you, was ok to you (scumslip anyone?) But my vote on you, the scummiest player I saw at the time, had gained ZERO ground, being changed to NJAC based on a compelling argument, is scummy? I really disagree with that. Then the move to Telo, who had contributed as much as you and still openly admits to not even trying to with on anything, is MORE SCUMMY? You find voting for a player, who reacts by reaffirming their lack of contribution, scummy? Look, your reactions were empty promises (which appear to no longer be empty now), his were utter nothingness (well, declaring v/la is fine I guess).

You can call me sheepy or w/e, if it helps you sleep at night, because of my initial njac vote (which I made PRIOR to iso'ing anyone). But tell me now, had I stayed on NJAC, would you have any opinions of him?

Please Shinori, c'mon. You say I'm off my meta. Where is your infamous beligerance that almost got you modkilled in our last game? Or...did you maybe decide to play a little bit more seriously? You have 14 other playerslots to look at. Do me a favor and acknowledge a few of them, before you jump down my throat for scumhunting "differently" or however you are interpreting my play.

[Eleison]

Can you say a tad bit more than nothing from now on?

IMPOSSIBRUUUU

And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

Thanks for the clarification on your gender. I won't mistake that anymore. But to business.

So, you still have no major opinions on possible scum, and prefer to camp on your RVS vote that, by now, could have an attempted justification?

I'm not calling out that it was weakly argued RVS. RVS isn't really a strong argument. I'm calling out that your RVS is still your only vote, and you've managed to kinda sorta maybe point a finger at a few people. After 9 pages of activity. To add to that, you STILL have your vote on Jun, which at this point, has yet to be explained why. Why do you still have your RVS vote on Jun? Has nothing happened to this point that makes you want to shift your vote around? If you still think Jun is the scummiest person around, or at least is 100% worth your vote, could you at least say so? You haven't mentioned a notable case against Jun, so it's hard to really read your vote as justified when other players are easily able to form hard cases and justifiable reasoning. If anything, you camping on Jun since RVS indicates to me either apathy (antitown / scum), you know something we don't (scum), skimreading (antitown / scum), inactivity (null tell) or noviceness (null tell). I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Why did you ignore me Elie? You're off on your town meta and you are defintely being a lot more aggresive. Something about you seems off. Part of it is gut feeling.

However after ISOing you I find this wierd. You voted: Pm(RVS) - Me(Wanting me to say stuff) - NJAC(You said Mae had you convinced on this, feels like just sheeping) - SIX POSTS LATER you swap to TELO(You are supposedly voting because their only vote is RVS which I don't see as the best vote. Why not me in that situation? I've been less active and really don't have any sort of viable vote with reasoning down.)

Yeah. Your vote hop from NJAC to TELO is terrible and you defintely have my attention. I don't like it.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Eleison

I'm fine with this vote now and other people should hop onto this.

Hey look who made it to the party. Can you tell I'm on my phone, from the annoyingly long quote strings?

Ok so let me get this straight. My.first vote was ok in your mind.. Even my second, on you, was ok to you (scumslip anyone?) But my vote on you, the scummiest player I saw at the time, had gained ZERO ground, being changed to NJAC based on a compelling argument, is scummy? I really disagree with that. Then the move to Telo, who had contributed as much as you and still openly admits to not even trying to with on anything, is MORE SCUMMY? You find voting for a player, who reacts by reaffirming their lack of contribution, scummy? Look, your reactions were empty promises (which appear to no longer be empty now), his were utter nothingness (well, declaring v/la is fine I guess).

You can call me sheepy or w/e, if it helps you sleep at night, because of my initial njac vote (which I made PRIOR to iso'ing anyone). But tell me now, had I stayed on NJAC, would you have any opinions of him?

Please Shinori, c'mon. You say I'm off my meta. Where is your infamous beligerance that almost got you modkilled in our last game? Or...did you maybe decide to play a little bit more seriously? You have 14 other playerslots to look at. Do me a favor and acknowledge a few of them, before you jump down my throat for scumhunting "differently" or however you are interpreting my play.

To further this, I can't really even tell if you are voting me for my meta. However, if my meta is affecting your opinion of me that much, then that's just a lazy reasoning backing your vote on me.

[Eleison]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.p ... opic=34918

A game where Elie was scum, played pretty aggressive brought attention to himself and got lynched day one.

Read it.

I was also scum in said game and lurked most of it cause had no interest in it for most of the game and other reasoning's.

He didn't mention that in this game above, he trolled emotions and threatened to ragequit, to nearly a point of being modkilled. He was pretty much bitched at by everyone to not be so argumentative and pushy. And my arguments in that game generally were flawed, because my attempts to be "aggressive" were forced, therefore weak.

Http://www.serenesforest.net/forums/ind ... 3724&st=40

A game where I actually dropped roleloaves d1. Drew attention to myself. I died that night. I was town.


Http://www.serenesforest.net/forums/ind ... 3294&st=40

A game where I tried to stop RVS early on, by drawing immense negative attention to myself. I was town.


Shinori, you are still reading me based on meta from one single game, when we have many to go from. I could link all the games where you are reamed out in postgame for reasons I'm sure you remember, and iirc, few of them are complimentary.

You are digging Shinori. You are desperate to find a flaw to jump on, and since you have no reads on other players, (as scum don't actually have reads, since they know who is scum by default), you are forcing yourself to find anything you can to draw attention away from yourself and on to someone else. So you picked me, for switching votes. Worse, you are backing it up with shitty logic.

I am not impressed.

[Eleison]

I could self meta but that would be pointless and stupid. Not even gonna get into that.

It might make you look less closed minded

No meta is not my only argument but it has been an argument that works on you specifically a fair amount of the time.

I still like my vote on you.

"Specifically a fair amount of the time". Ok sure. Specifically when? You mean the one time you are referring to? How often has meta pointed me out to be anything?

Why should it even matter? What have I actually done to merit a vote from you? You just acknowledged that meta is your primary reason, as it's "effective". It's effectively lazy. I'm not trying to defend myself from you. I'm trying to get you to stay taking this seriously.

Oh yeah you said i don't have other reads even though I do and I've stated I want mcstab lynched but that guy doesn't even have a vote on him anymore so eff it. You just give me plenty of ammo to throw at you. Like your over defensiveness towards me in your past few posts directed at me.

"I don't like you. So far you also seem scummy" is not a real argument for mcstab, especially on page 1. Meta is not a real argument for anyone. Not sure what made you think they were.

Get off your high horse and start actually playing the game.

[Eleison]

My apologies. Weekend projects, and frustration with my wife and kids and work all combined made me unable to focus and dedicate time to this game. But I'm back on the weekday grind, so I can muster up the effort and give this game my second wind.

To start. ##UNVOTE (Telo)

Yes, I still think Telo is scummy. No, I don't think Telo is the priority.

Shinori:

I never once said I was joking. I just had a joking manner because I felt like joking around. I never said it was an RVS or a joke vote though, you just made an assumption.

Well, if you had clarified this at any point, we wouldn't have had to waste time and effort prodding you to show enthusiasm and actually explain yourself (which you did here in 2 sentences, and could've done at any point).

Fine lynch me. I don't care.

Cool. Anti-town. How the hell is this supposed to give us a good read of you, and a stronger read of whoever it is that you're attacking, (in this case, me)? If you can't bother to want to keep yourself in the game, then obviously your motivation is lacking, or you're preparing to throw in the towel. Either way, it's not helping anybody.

It's meta from the only site that I know of that Elieson has played on where I play each day in mafia games with Elieson and have played with him there for months.

Therefore it's accurate.

Still no interest in this game because half of the logic stated between people isn't that good. Mine included because I'm too lazy to actually type up something to say why your scummy.

Nope. Still hanging on meta. Then not interested in working up more logic (though you do when prodded).

I dunno, I can't really tell at this point whether you're just the most anti-town player I've ever seen, or one of the scum players in the game

Jun:

Just did an ISO of this game. I'll reread it non-iso'ed later. For now this will have to do.

My reads (in no particular order):

Scum:

Eleison

– early/mid posts are completely devoid of content. I don’t like how he also won’t post his town reads because I think that it’s important to see if we can come to a consensus on some confirmed town for the triangulation. Votes what I consider a low hanging lurker fruit (Telo) who is already going to be V/LA until after the weekend. Very defensive about getting called out about his meta by Shinori.


I think Eleison is my largest suspect for now, and his flip would give town the most information, imo. I don't like how PMysterious is lurking so much, but I'll drop it for now since he is gone and my vote there obviously isn't doing anything.

Like I said, I'd rather not out my town reads unless they're on the chopping block. It gives the mafia a better idea of who's not going to be mislynched (in other words, who to kill early).


Dividizzle:

Considered following the theme of ISO'ing you, since other players are doing so, and I agree. Posting more will give us the opportunity to look at you as though you are more town or scum, but not posting as much (like you are), has blessed you with the ability to be relatively ignored. Being a wallflower does not make you town. Right now you're not really contributing. You're defending yourself. Scumhunt please.


Pirate Mollie:

Here we go.

anyways it was just an idea, I like to start on d1 cos on some sites I am nked very early and I like to try to maximise the amount of info that I can get for my team. this is a team game after all.

Did you really post this? Are you really getting info for your "team"?

lol. circling the wagon.

I bet scum win more games on here than town. vt btw bet it is glaringly apparent!

voting for someone you believe is town just cos you don't like them maenara is just flat out anti-town. I think especially in an untimed game. wondering if maybe I was right with my first post as to who stood out which would be ironic cos the whole reason I joined this site and wanted to play in a completely different environment was cos I wanted to get past things like second guessing myself!!!!1!

it has been a long time since I have been the d1 lynch but the last time I was it was in an untimed game too and the reason was similar cos there was a bottlenose of info provided at the time in the game thread.

but anyway, good luck town!

Giving up at L-5? What is it with this game and antitown maneuvers? If I had a nickel, seriously. If anything, you should be policy lynched (or shot by a hypothetical Vig) for throwing in the white towel so early in the phase.

Between you and Shinori, I've seen enough of this anti-town behavior. I'm voting for you over him though because while he's gradually progressing from obvscum to possible antitown, you're doing the opposite. You're suggesting "triangulation", an easily backfire-able plan, filling the thread with posts that make sense only about half the time, and dropping crumbs left and right.

VOTE: PIRATE MOLLIE

[Eleison]

trying this again.

UNVOTE: TELO

VOTE: PIRATE MOLLIE

[Eleison]

Fuck. I'l poor. My internet has been shut off at my house & I'm using a computer at my job for the time being. It got shut off on Tuesday, so much fun yay.

I'll have it resolved tomorrow (i plan on it anyway). Then i'll be back and able to focus.

Life sucks when you are a grown up.

Though, gamerelated (i dunno when I can respond), what does this mean, Jun? Can your please clarify this, as the only way anyone should have another player confirmed as town is after a successful scan, flip, or if you are scum (in which case, you know who is town by default).

Guys, Thurhame is town.

Still down for lynching mollie, as nothing else of legitimatly scummy activity has occured on the past 2 pages, other than insults, calls for this lynch, and calls at inactivity.

Jun, plz answer. It's all I got right now.

[Eleison]

McStab is losing town points to me for posting in other threads but not contributing in this one.

and @ everyone thinking my belief and trust in Thurhame means that I am scum:
Thurhame and NJAC seem very town to me. I read them as scum while they were town in our newbie game, and I think in light of that it's very likely that they're town as well in this game. I really have no reason to believe otherwise until we get to the point at which it becomes obvious I made an erroneous assumption (but I do not think that would happen). mollie is scummy for simply giving up at L-5 and PMysterious is suspicious for lurking so much.

Although I have to say everyone here is lurking a lot, too. Come on town, step it up. Even if I don't have much to say I still try to say something to help move things along.

Yes I saw this too btw.

And by my question, I mean, for what reason other than "i played with them once, they acted like this, so they must be town"? Like, what specifically citable from this thread have they done to convince you that they are town?

ok, leaving work. Should be able to respond in the morning.

[Eleison]

I think at this point, I'd be stupid to miss the slip of the century.

UNVOTE (MOLLIE)
VOTE: ########

I'd like to hear mollie before he gets lynched, but based on the mild activity and such, not sure if I'll get my wish.

Still homenet btw. Suddenlink resolves today, but reconnects tomorrow.

[Eleison]

Mollie all of a sudden votes numbe

when numbers is the center of attention.

Either you back up numbers statement and support that we overlook scumslips, or you call him out on his antitown & scummy behavior.

Sorry no home internet, though I found a ramshackle way to connect using my son's laptop while hardwired into my phone and using it like a locked hotspot.

Vote stays on Numbers, but Mollie isn't helping her case. Especially trying to defend herself with meta.

[Eleison]

Edit: mollie has her vote on Shinori. Which is why?

Dunno why i said numbers.

[Eleison]

^ holy cow. I am at a point where I could go for an eleison lynch.

eleison I no longer think shinori is super scummy I have my vote on them cos I simply haven't moved it yet.

Then that's called apathy (antitown), or laziness (nulltell).

Because you just admitted to voting for someone you found scummy, but now that you think he is not scummy, you couldn't even unvote him, even you have obviously been here.

Is that why I'm lynchworthy, in your opinion? For pointing out your flaws in logic, your lack of actual voting (as you don't have reads right now I guess?), and calling your "self-defense position by use of off-site meta" a joke?

[Eleison]

moaner is one of your scum tactics to quotemine someone to the point where they want to commit mafia suicide by going all emo and self voting cos I must admit it is highly effective I want to slit my wrists right now. <---this is my sense of humour btw before you get all fumey over it. no but seriously. quotemining is a huge scumtell and you have been doing it like crazy hence why I think you are scum.

Thinks Theomoaner is scun. Doesn't unvote Shinori/vote Theo.

I was going to put myself out there to hammer numbers person when we were ready to move the day forward since I am not concerned with how I look. he had reached 8 at one point but then someone unvoted.

Would vote to hammer Numbers, bur doesn't believe him to be scum.

the trouble I am having is the whole scum slip thing that slaandar made up and I am not the only one. if we are going to lynch him I would rather it be for thurhame's neutral (too many neutral looking posts point to scum IMO, cos they are ebing super duper careful about how they post and their win condition is based on survival) posting and the numbers person non-existant case on me. like, let's lynch him for scummy behaviour and not over his confusion of his use of a term.

More interested in lynching someone like Thurhame/Slaandar, than Numbers. Does not change vote yet.

Not to mention "not being concerned with how you look", contradicting your stance on yourself from one page (mere hours) ago.

Seriously. The line between antitown and scum is thin, and you have a foot on both sides of that line.

[Eleison]

Mollie.

Stop with the antitown bullshit.

The only reason you would do your side any good with a selfvote is if you are scumsided, and a selfhammer deprives town of discussion time, which benefits scum only.

Your general posting habits seem to include offers to vote opportunistically and self hammer and self defense. Neither of these are scumhunting.

And in reference to.your block letter bullshit. If you don't want to support retarded TOWN play, and want to do things for the right reasons, then do things for your reasons, and justify them. If X is scummy because Y, and everyone else uses bad reason Z, you not voting for him with Y is hurting town.

I'm tired of this. I'm tired of being distracted from other reads because you chime in with illogical reasoning and contradictions that scream "distract town from scumhunting!"

UNVOTE (NUMBERS)
VOTE: MOLLIE

[Eleison]

Might as well continue where we left off.

VOTE: SHINORI

Bad case of tunnelling, backed with at best iffy logic, and anti-town behavior for most, if not all of Day 1.

[Eleison]

As far as I'm concerned, selfvoting is pretty ineffective at garnering town points. Mollie didn't help her case very much with her arguments, and just fell apart toward the end of day1.

at work btw.

[Eleison]

Still feel like something is off. When I get home from work, gonna find slandaar interactions from d1. There had to be some clue.

[Eleison]

On the topic of scumhunting (or lack thereof).

I said it once then proceeded to not say it.

I genuinely though mollie was scum, and obviously 8 other players in the game did cause otherwise I couldn't have hammered.

Also I didn't know I was hammering MAH B.

You might wanna go back and look at shit also, after I voted someone else did and they had the intent to hammer.

I recommend looking for the players who DEFENDED mollie. I'm willing to bet they were scum trying to gain town cred.

Anywhooo...

##Vote: Elieson

I do that in posts sometimes when I'm perty sure someone is scum.

Whether I'm hammering or not, it just means I'm most likely not gonna move my vote from said person.

It would probably take me forever to find another time I did it though because it's generally rare.

Also I don't even remember the questions you asked supposedly about my vote on you, that was like some odd number of pages ago.

Remind me what they are scum?

Feel like, I dunno, doing something other than defending yourself?

You seem to have quite a lack of reads (something indicative of scum).

[Eleison]

Not like i could find much with an analysis, but all I got from Slandaar's D1 activity was #404, pointing his finger at Numberscum (like so many others).

[Eleison]

With reference to trying to find more scum than just Scumnori, I mean.

I'm pretty sure that based on what's happened so far, Enigma should be able to at least come up with a sensible post as to why he's voting for Shinori. Not like it's a hard choice at this point, but still, if you're town, you should be outting reasons and thought processes to pretty much everything you do, not just mindlessly sheeping.

[Eleison]

I think it's best you calm down, before instigating another subout request [Smash].

Although Telo, you are looking for respect in a place where we are trying to find (what may as well be) criminals. Mind games are always going to be in the venue of these games, so expecting peace and civility at all times is a little naive.

[Eleison]

Telo.

Why aren't you voting Shinori again? He isn't the scummiest in your eyes, but is he scummy at all to you?

[Eleison]

He's at L-1 right now, if my math is correct?

Telo, would like an answer before you leave please.

[Eleison]

Same goes for anyone why hadn't actually voted for him yet. Primarily, Jun and Theo. I'd really like a concise explanation as to why you are voting for others over obvscum.

Because scum distancing is evident

[Eleison]

Maybe someone else can point out to me where this scumhunting from Shinori is?

If it is hidden among his constant self-defense posts, like the other generico logic posts he claims to be making, then I'm not impressed.

How about his using meta as a "firm" basis for half of his arguments? Or mcstab subbing as his other?

His hammer on Mollie did happen, and whether that in itself is scummy or not, a quick iso shows OMGUS from him directed at Mollie for voting him, and Shinori jumping down her throat for posting her top 3 was bigger than expected.

[Eleison]

As far as I'm concerned, Shinori is antitown and scum.

Fine lynch me. I don't care

He actually said this.

[Eleison]

Shinori, this doesn't fly.

I won't hammer myself. Keep talking.

Try making a case for us not to lynch you. Or if you are indeed town, as you say, then give us a case for a valid Day3 lynch.

[Eleison]

Hi shino.

If you forget, I had (albeit shortlived) cases on Telo and Numbers, as well as Mollie.

Also, Shinori's logic of "Elieson is acting different than how I know him to act" STILL CONTINUES.

Shino, to answer you're question, I'm essentially a single dad of 2, got my home internet back setup on Thursday, and I've been working a bunch of extra hours due to medical crisis at one job. Not to mention that we just began Day2, where all of jack shit has happened other than your accumulating votes. More subbing (not really that paramount), and not much else. You can't say ink the one who built a wagon on you all by myself, because obv other people think you are scummy, since you got to L-1 pretty quickly.

Also, look who showed up when I called him out.

I think this game has fallen to users only reappearing from their hidey holes upon receiving attention, (which I totally had a ton of, amirite ppl?), or waiting for something to happen.

And honestly Shinori, if your case on McStab was strong as you say it was, then you are just throwing your arms in a tantrum when you say no one listened to you.

I'd still.like to hear why my tunnelling on antitown turned obvscum is a bad thing.

[Eleison]

Bouncing back to Theo, no one bothered to stand up and explain a case that I summarized in my first day2 post.

Yep yep. Early game was terrible, he's trying to fly under the radar

Breaking earlygame sluggishness is hard fir most. Early game was terrible for most. Mollie was certainly no exception, but she got lynched over it, and we were apparently wrong. If all scummy ppl were decided as scum simply due to early game, then scum.would outnumber town by the end of Day 1.

And I'm not trying to fly under the radar. I really would rather be in the spotlight, as I demonstrated in Early Day1. If I was, would I be pushing this hard for a lynch that to me, has been building in validity since midDay1? Someone who has coasted through the entire game would be more easy to read as flying under the radar. And since most coasters have since subbed out, that leaves Shinori.

I am confident that I found scum, and have been for a while. I'll need more than a post from my #1 suspect that is challenging my meta to be convinced otherwise.

[Eleison]

Are you magically off of Shinori now for good? Your jump looks unexpected and unclarified tbh.

[Eleison]

Referring to Hiraki in the above post

[Eleison]

It was never a real push.

Don't quite see the logic in there. You aided in Shinori racing to L-1 for...nothing? Sounds really sheepish to me, and that's all it sounds like.

[Eleison]

On the topic of a sheep wagon, be more interested in looking at the herd. b ehind me

[Eleison]

Ok I wasn't expecting that.

This is serious bananas.

I'm outing, because my partner drew attention to me and himself, before even completing our backup plan.

I'm a mason, as is Smash. We are the only two (as far as we know...I've yet to see a game with multiple mason groups). No recruiter in our masonry.

If you analyze our D2 posts, the first letter in each of our consecutive posts spells out "MasonWithSmashbard" and "MasonWithElieson". We did this in a plan to prove the other as themm other mason, in case of a flip (night kill, lynch, vig, whatever). If I died, nothing could stop say, scum!Theo, from saying he is amongst us, as Smash couldn't possibly prove otherwise.

[Eleison]

Posting from my phone results in constant failure. Adding to the above.

One of us could call attention to the other's D2 post history, and confirm ourselves as town. It's the best we can do, as far as confirming eachother as town and not getting anyone else to try to claim Mason and screw over town in the process.

That being said, my vote stays on Shinori.

Let's analyze his posts for a moment.

I said it once then proceeded to not say it.

I genuinely though mollie was scum, and obviously 8 other players in the game did cause otherwise I couldn't have hammered.

Also I didn't know I was hammering MAH B.

You might wanna go back and look at shit also, after I voted someone else did and they had the intent to hammer.

I recommend looking for the players who DEFENDED mollie. I'm willing to bet they were scum trying to gain town cred.

Anywhooo...

##Vote: Elieson

Interpretations, line by line:

Self Defense.

Self Defense.

Self Defense.

Look over there.

Look over that way too.

I do that in posts sometimes when I'm perty sure someone is scum.

Whether I'm hammering or not, it just means I'm most likely not gonna move my vote from said person.

It would probably take me forever to find another time I did it though because it's generally rare.

Also I don't even remember the questions you asked supposedly about my vote on you, that was like some odd number of pages ago.

Remind me what they are scum?

If you're that certain of yourself, then why are your arguments for your vote targets generally so weak? If you're focusing on your mad intuition, then please at least explain where this intuition is coming from, (Specifically, from here, and not the past/other locations).

As far as the questions, I believe Smash has already addressed that quite adequately.

What's gonna be funny is when I die and flip town who was just useless. Also not everyone voting me said they thought I was the most scummy player.

I'm also gonna laugh if my scum reads are right.

OMG U GAIS WILL BE SORRY IF YUO VOTE FOR ME!

No really. You openly call people out on not voting you for being scummy. That's cool. Then, you pursue it....wait, no you didn't pursue it. In reality, this isn't worth the paper it could've been written on.

I won't hammer myself. Keep talking.

The most Town thing I've seen from you thus far. You aren't willing to kill discussion for the phase and limit our ability to find more scum, because you:

A:) Aren't willing to self-hammer, in an effort to not be lynched. (Neutral motivation, survival instinct)
B:) Striving to actively find scum in an effort to demonstrate your value to town as a contributor and scumhunter (Town motivation, must find scum)
C:) Convinced that scum on this wagon will simply unvote you in due time. (Scum motivation, know you won't be lynched)

I honestly don't know which of those three could be the possible truth, but it at least got me considering "what if"

Going to sleep because I'm super tired now. =X

I also think anyone who wasn't voting me/wasn't gonna hammer me is most likely town, because scum would have hammered me with the excuse of policy lynch/scummy behavior, which means scum could most likely be found in just the people voting for me.

Elieson, you vanished, only came back when you were pressured and have only come back to try and apply pressure to me it seems, you are nowhere near as active as you were early game, Why is that? And I also took that previous statement back and also that was stated a pretty long time ago.

You say I'm anti-town and scum, yet a bit ago you didn't seem to think I was obv scum, what changed your mind? The fact that everyone else was fine with lynching me? Seems to me like early game you were being crazy and scummy and got called out on it. Afterwards you drastically dropped in activity and have been fading into the background, sheeping behind other players and only making easy decisions.

This last one in 2 parts.

First off, was I actually pressured? I don't recall being anywhere close to lynched by votes on me. In fact, I don't remember being even halfway to lynching. Where this "pressure" came from, I dunno. I got back when I could.

The entire town dropped into the background. You never really stepped out from it. Not following your point here. My thoughts on you being Anti-Town and/or Obvscum? Well hell, you could easily bounce back and forth between the two. Actively coming across as Antitown is well, Anti Town. Actively coming across as scummy is Anti Town as well as scummy. The two can be interchanged, depending on the case. In your case, willing to be lynched at one point and not willing to self hammer at another simply add to the confusion it is that is called a "Read on Shinori". Exactly who/which side are you trying to benefit?

You are not playing the Town Elie I know. Seems like you're tunneling me.

I still think you are the best lynch target. And the mcstab scumhunting was a long time ago when i first said mcstab was scum, quoted his stuff and everything and I asked EVERYONE how that player could be town, then everyone chose to ignore me. You can't ignore me when I scum hunt and then be pissed when I don't scum hunt. Shit doesn't fly like that and it annoys me that that is what happened. The scum hunting I have done in this game has been overlooked and ignored by most players saying I'm just a bad worthless town player or people saying I'm scum, or just completely ignored by people saying I'm tunneling.

EVERYONE was saying Elieson looked scummy early game, and no one seems to care about the fact that he changed his attitude? Someone said that if he was scum, his scum buddies would be yelling at him telling him to stop, maybe that happened, because otherwise he would have kept playing how he had been, playing scummy and aggresive, yet he changed, I want an explanation for that.

Like seriously, I say lynch elieson. Kill it with fire. I'm leaving my vote here.

Die.

ONCE AGAIN, analyzing me by my post quality from another website, another set of games, et al. OF COURSE I am focused on you. You're using horrible logic, and should either snap back to reality and start analyzing my posts for the actual content in them, as opposed to constantly calling back to off site history that you are familiar with.

Thus, the scumhunting you've offered has been overlooked because the majority of what you have done is either voted for me or voted for someone else, with weak reasoning, with your hand on standby ready to switch to me at a moment's notice. You tunneling into me not only presented you as unwilling to contribute, it made you look unsupportive to the town cause in general. And now it's Day 2, and you're looking at this like it's the same thing. Oh Eleiscum, because

You are not playing the Town Elie I know.

is STILL your primary backing reason.

[Eleison]

Let's look at votes now, shall we? First we have:

votecount

shinori (6): eleison, combinatorialEnigma, buldermar, smashbard, maenara, hiraki
combinatorialEnigma (1): Telo
eleison (1): shinori
telo (1): theomoaner
evilpacman (1): jun

not voting (4): evilpacman, 10506670, NJAC, dividizzle

With 14 players it is 8 to lynch (7 to no lynch)

Deadline is on the 13th of october

Numbers jumped on Shinori too, so for all intents and purposes, we'll assume he's on there.

Shortly after;

votecount

shinori (4): eleison, buldermar, smashbard, 10506670
eleison (4): shinori, hiraki, NJAC, maenara
combinatorialEnigma (2): Telo, jun

not voting (4): evilpacman, dividizzle, theomoaner, combinatorialEnigma

With 14 players it is 8 to lynch (7 to no lynch)

Deadline is on the 13th of october

Mae and Hiraki are so moved by Shinori's poetic approach to scumhunting, (and i'd assume me calling him out on it with my analysis of his performance), that they switch over to voting for me. I'm willing to bet actual $ that one of Mae/Hiraki are scum, just for that easy-as-pie switch off.

Shinori, being at L-2, never seems to feel enough pressure to need to claim or do anything mega town like out his reads on the potential scum in the game (well, there is his read on me, but I just went over that).

Enigma drops off of the wagon, to analyze what's going on. Not sure what to make of that yet.

Still considering Numbers as scum too, simply because of his openly crap vote.

Do you guys always /ignore me or something...?

Anyways, I think most of us can agree to PL Shinori... I honestly don't see the lynch of anyone else happening.

We're in big trouble if this keeps up though. Anti-town behavior is distracting us from any real scum discussion. Hoping that we can move past that next day.

VOTE: Shinori
[/quote.

This vote is bringing Shinori to L-1, where anyone could quickhammer and come over as town, even scum (assuming there's scum that hasn't already voted for him). This sheepish and weak vote stands out to me most of all, because he doesn't actually think Shinori is scum, but just hops on the wagon anyway and tries to cruise along.

After Shinori, I'm taking a stronger look at Numbers of being the next in line scum.

[Eleison]

In honesty I had tunneled you all early game for a reaction, got a reaction I didn't like and decided to keep my eye on you. You in response have tunneled me, you don't tunnel, like, ever. When you do tunnel sometimes you still look at other players and you dont super push for a lynch . Yes that is meta, but your reactions to me tunneling you have basically been an OMGUS tunnel back onto me. What about that seems town at all? Seriously. And what I said in that post about the people voting me is most likely true. Scum have no reason to not hammer really, so that means they can't hammer, as in they already have all their members most likely voting me. When I flip town that will prove that. If you two are actually masons then that would also narrow down who was left that was scum on my wagon. Think about it Elie. Reference anony draft R:2 that you hosted recently. I SELF HAMMERED THEN. Also reference ICBINSFMM3, I Hammered another player riskily who was my own scumbuddy. When I'm scum, you should know I would self hammer. What reason do I have not to self hammer? I want you to find a legit, logical reason, that I would not self hammer as scum. Seriously. You won't find one.

I won't find one? I won't find logic as to not self-hammer? I dunno what the scum wincon is, but since it's a Normal game, I'm assuming that it's similar to a town's wincon, and that's to hit parity/outnumber town. It's really hard to outnumber town if you throw your life away, especially in a scenario where you don't know for a fact that you're going to be hammered.

I don't care what you did in other places. I'm looking at what you have done here, specifically here. In this thread. As if you're a player that's new to me, like the other 14 players (well, 12 now) here in this game that I've never met before, and as far as I know, haven't met you before. And here, you didn't self-hammer. How is what you did in 2+ other places consistent with what you are doing in a new venue? You're demanding that I look at you just as through we're back in our usual setting, and that's not right. You're under the delusion that players in a game like this always do the same thing, every time, even if it's a new game or a new setting. That's something that you need to accept as untrue. And I'd rather debate specific events outside of the game. Meta on what you did or I did elsewhere isn't indicative to finding scum right here and now.

What I'm concerned with is you trying to survive, as most scum would be expected to do. I'm also looking at you as though you're Shinori, scum from Mafia 158: Titanium, not Shinori from ICBINSFMM3 or any other game.

[Eleison]

Note to above. I meant to say "that's for scum to hit parity/outnumber town"

[Eleison]

I agree that meta shouldn't be the only thing you pay attention to and it also shouldn't be a majority of your arguments, but it also should not be ignored completely.

I have a hard time believing this, since it's pretty much all you've been preaching about me since the moment you decided no matter what, you would never find me as anything but town.

[Eleison]

Replace the word Town with Scum, at the end. I obviously wasn't thinking clearly when I typed that (a trend I seem to have today) You shouldn't find me as anything other than

scum

specifically simply because of meta. I'll restate my thoughts in different words.

I have a hard time believing this, because your arguments on me being scum sided seemed unmovable, since you asserted your suspicions on me being scum by adding "Die" to the end of your vote, which i have outlined here.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Pirate Mollie.

Die.

I do that in posts sometimes when I'm perty sure someone is scum.

Whether I'm hammering or not, it just means I'm most likely not gonna move my vote from said person.

Like seriously, I say lynch elieson. Kill it with fire. I'm leaving my vote here.

Die.

[Eleison]

Noobtown or Noobscum. noobscum tends to be a bit more....wordy, like uses more words, in attempts to blend in more, but also post a bit less frequently. Noobtown tend not to say much period (in my experiences anyway).

I can't really say at this point.

[Eleison]

That's the thing. Apparently, I'm the only one who really believes him to be scum (and smash, as we discussed it last night). Meaning the other halfish voters that were on him until the switch off.

It's odd..I'd like Buldermar to appear, divdizzle to follow through more, etc etc.

UNVOTE

I'll bite for now. I've slept on it, and had a pretty horrible day yesterday. Also, I have V/LA in 48 hours (though I'll still be able to post from my phone, just 0 PC access for 7 days).

[Eleison]

When I posted that, I thought Shinori and Mae, or Shinori and Hiraki, were scum. Note that my vote was remaining on the only common player between those two groups

[Eleison]

Burder, look at Mae and Hiraki's posts where they switched off of Shinori, then look at Shinori's bigger post. How much did it take to make them drop.Shinori? Not a lot. hiraki clearly didn't explain himself. Lol at "thank you for giving a damn". Is that serious? Sarcastic?

[Eleison]

Mae, assuming a doc in the setup is one thing, but assuming 3/4 preset innocents & an SK, on top of 4 lynchworthy (implying scum)... That's half the game setup you just called out.

What on earth makes your so certain that there is an SK among us, and that there is a third+ "innocent" out there?

[Eleison]

Sry mae, misread the part on self-confirmation.

Divdizzle, smash dropped hints on day2 as well as day1, "being sure that eleison is town". I didn't expect it, but they happened. To deal with it, I clarified those hints before they get called out, rather than after. Because a claim of masonry after I hit L-2 or L-1 looks more like a panic gambit, imo anyway.

[Eleison]

Also, why would we do that setup? First off, claiming mason isn't an instant towntell, especially when under pressure. Second, if we claimed, there is nothing stopping scum from claiming mason themselves. Furthermore, if I died, then I've flip mason. Ppl would ask, who is the other mason, and smash wouldn't be able to prove under normal circumstances, that he is the only other mason, so he puts himself at risk for being nightkilled, while someone else could chance the benefits of claiming mason, and claim doc'd or something.

There is no way for us to confirm ourselves as town to you our anyone else, as it's easy to claim mason.

[Eleison]

Thank you for actually giving a damn.

Unvote, Vote: Elesion

[Eleison]

Pretty sure Hiraki is more laid-back town than opportunistic scum; just a hunch.

Buldermar, I'm gaining a scum read on now.

Mae though, I can dig.

Everyone can see that it's virtually guaranteed there'd be at least 4 anti-town players, and I'm guessing that there's a SK or similar because I find that most 16-man games would probably have some sort of 3rd party.

Yeah, I've been sheeping, but that's because this town needs a bit more cohesion.

Inspire us.

VOTE: MAENARA

[Eleison]

Fyi, I actually spelled my own name wrong when making this account. It actually is Elieson.

[Eleison]

Guys, I'm apologizing for my lack of posting for the past few days. I took my kids to Disney (we flew out here this past Friday, and we return home this coming Friday. I never announced my V/LA, by sheer accident of being an overwhelmed parent keeping track of 2 children for disney. I am keeping up though, so when I can access a pc, or get time to dedicate to here, I will.
sorry again everyone.

[Eleison]

Hey all, I'm back from Disney! Trip was fantastic, and my kids had a blast!

Anywat, I'm not here to brag about a trip.

One, I'm livid that Shinori flipped as Vanilla Town. Based on his play, I was beginning to assume that he might be a PR trying to lay low. My reads of hin were completely off, and it frustates me knowing I wasted all that time on town.

Second. My thoughts on Mae are leaning scum, due to the recent defenses. Pinning yourself as an unlucky partner with X, Y, and Z isn't helping the case, but the defense is there, and it's either desperate scum survival, or desperate town survival.

Third, Smash called out something really big on Enigma, and right now, we need to take what we can get.

VOTE: ENIGMA

[Eleison]

Hey guys, I'm back from vacation again.

Found out my wife is deathly allergic to Naproxen (found in things like Aleve, Bayer, Aspirin, etc).

It's all resolved, and she's fine now. Got her a medical alert bracelet, so she's all set.

Reading thread. I left off right after watching a hat and a fork on video.

Current thoughts: Jun x Mae scumteam. Give me a bit to catch up and form more logic behind what's in my head.