Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[NJAC]

@McStab - So the wagon on PMy is to make him somehow claim, right? Is there any other motivation under it? Do you actually think he's scummy?

McStab... IGMEOY.

VOTE: maenara

So, you did it again, you think someone is scummy but you vote another person, why is that?

[NJAC]

@EPM - Jun is an actual newb so his (her?) question about the setup is honest imo, In fact I've only played two newbie games and I do have some questions about this setup too.

[NJAC]

He (she?) did that in the early game in our last game: newbie 1269.

[NJAC]

@Hiraki - Why is Theomoaner scummy?

[NJAC]

Closed normal - the wiki has a list of roles considered normal. Any of them can appear with any applicable normal modifier. Setups are created by the mod, and approved for normalcy and usually balance by a small group of reviewers. There's no way to predict what might be in the game and trying to outguess the mod is generally a bad idea....

Thanks for the explanation, why exactly is that a bad idea?

[NJAC]

Jun's train of thought is terrible imo, but I'm gonna think for now that it doesn't make him (her?) scummy, he (she?) does some scummy things but I saw that kind of "reasoning" in her first newbie game (and she was town). And to answer a question from Theomoaner I'm not defending her, not now neither when you asked me, and I think it's pretty clear that I just told EPM that her question wasn't alignment indicative, and that kind of questions doesn't constitute a scumtell theirselves.

On another note I think EPM is being a little bit opportunistic with the Theomoaner wagon, he said he suddenly realized the Theomoaner's scummy actions and he just jumped on the wagon. Idk if theomoaner is scummy or not, I don't find him scummy enough for now, but it looks to me like some scums are jumping on his wagon, and EPM is suspect for me:

VOTE: evilpacman

[NJAC]

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in order to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I said I'm not defending Jun now, and I wasn't defending her before. You can think whatever you want about her, but I just share with you my impressions about her, taking in mind my last game with her. In that game I voted her on D1 mainly for the same reasons you are considering here, and she was town, so I don't want to do the same in this game. As I said she looks scummy and her arguments are terrible, but considering that last game it doesn't make her scummy, just maybe bad town.

You also think she's not scummy, cause you list her in your town list, may I think you are defending her? Your case is based on Jun flipping town, so I'll gain towncred, right? What exactly make you think she is town, because I'm thinking that based on my last game, but you don't care to explain about your thoughts on her.

Now, let's take a look over the facts:

Jun asked something like:

Now for a clarification question:
-Do we know anything about the roles in this setup except that they are balanced by the Normal Game Review Group? Should I expect something similar to a C9++ setup in which roles are determined based on a formula and thus the role list can be guessed at due to flips?

I don't think such a question is a scumtell, however EPM pointed it out as such:

Jun's post is bad because it goes like this
>FOS on someone he thinks is scummy
>makes contrived RVS vote after just saying someone is actually scummy
>

lulzy ignorant setup speculation on a closed normal. (I mean he knows what a C9++ is but doesn't know how a closed normal works? That's kinda bull don't you think? I don't even know what a C9++ is.)

So, I decide to clarify EPM on the bold part, not the whole case:

@EPM - Jun is an actual newb so his (her?) question about the setup is honest imo, In fact I've only played two newbie games and I do have some questions about this setup too.

Then Theomoaner asks why I'm defending her. I say meh! this is not a defense, I just think that's not a scumtell and I indeed have some doubts about the setup too. I must admit I thought of Theomoaner being scummy for that: casting suspicions on a newb like me for a very weak reason. But considering the case against him and the wagon started by Hiraki, I'm not sure that's a great case and I see him doing some scumhunt job, so I want to believe he is town for the moment. And with that premise I can think of some scum jumping on that wagon, so EPM looks to me like that scum.

I'll like you to elaborate a little more about your reads, maybe give a couple of arguments explaining about your town reads, cause I see you somehow explained about your scum reads.

[NJAC]

After ISO'ing EPM, I think he's not as scummy as I thought, I want to understand why the Theomoaner wagon went down and why Hiraki didn't push the wagon further:

@Hiraki - Do you still have Theomoaner as your top scum read?

I'm a litlle bit confused, don't understand why the wagons aren't being pushed enough. Is it possible that scums are not pushing neither of the wagons? I guess I need to read a couple f ISO's.

UNVOTE: evilpacman

[NJAC]

I decided to read Slandaar ISO and although I need to read others, I see Slandaar is just an one-liner who comes from time to time, throws a couple of questions and leaves. I think he hasn't contributed a lot, but he wants to look like he's scumhunting. Not sure if that's the right way to scumhunt, but I see he just states a (almost obvious) town read on Hiraki, and says Mollie is leaning town, but withouth caring to explain too much. Maybe his best contribution is with the triangulation thing, when he says it's not necessary to do that this early. However Mollie is somehow trying to count on Slandaar to try that triangulating thing

I'll try this for now and will follow with that ISO thing:

VOTE: Slandaar

[NJAC]

@Mollie - your suspicions on me are based on gut, or what exactly is the case?

@Smashbard - I'd want you to fix your quotes in 220. But let's suppose I'm defending Jun, so you think that makes me scummy and makes Jun scummy by association, right? How often do scums defend their scumpartners in such a blatant way, according to your experience?

[NJAC]

BTW @Slandaar - Is lurking scummy? because I understand that's your main case on PM, am I wrong?

[NJAC]

Sorry about the absence, really need to reread the thread and some ISO's. I agree with the last post of dividizzle. Don't see the need to quicklynch Mollie. Of course I'll read her ISO and come with a read on her, but it's pro-town to think things and use our votes wisely, so if someone else is going to jump on that wagon, they better think it twice and reread before voting, even more considering some players have not posted enough (I'm one of them I know) or are going to be replaced.

[NJAC]

Hey people, I apology again for my absence. Unfortunately this week I'm in a RL event that have become very important, so I'll be reading and posting tomorrow.

[NJAC]

Ok I'm back now, RL stuff can be very absorbing sometimes. Now I'll go and read the thread, but before that:

UNVOTE

[NJAC]

Hey people I'm done with the RL stuff, now I can come back to the game. If I see I can't follow up again, then I'll ask for replacement but I think that wouldn't happen.

I'll go and read from somewhere close to page 10, if someone could please summarize the case against shinori it would be appreciated.

[NJAC]

Ok, I've already read (though I kinda skimmed a bit: this game is a little hard to read) and I'm sharing with you some thoughts the way they're coming now. Please tell me if I'm missing something:

With regards to Shinori and his wagon: I see Shinori is incredibly antitown and makes no effort to avoid being lynched. I don't know if this is enough to lynch him but I can understand why he's got all those votes. The problem is his case is not as strong as I expected, so I'm not leaning to join that wagon, what means I'm not sure he's scummy for those reasons.

I think Mollie had to stop posting that much, if I'm not wrong she posted in every single page, and she raised a lot of noise (like she said herself) around her. She was a perfect scapegoat, and I think there was at least one scum on her wagon.

I need to make several ISO's, so more incoming, but with the last posts I'm watching Eleison

[NJAC]

Oh well, I see Shinori is making an interesting case so I retire that part of: "...makes no effort to avoid being lynched". Meanwhile I read those ISO's I'll cast my vote on Eleison:

VOTE: Eleison

[NJAC]

@Hiraki.

If you're talking about me I hit submit at the very same time with you, because no preview was shown to me. And, do you want Eleison lycnhed or not, and if so what's the main reason?

[NJAC]

What exactly makes you think Eleison is town?

[NJAC]

Ok, I can buy the masons claim, so:

UNVOTE: Eleison

I'm not sure about Shinori, but if he's town then at least one scum being on his wagon makes sense to me. So, one (or even two) of Mae/Hiraki/numbers/buldermar/Rubik would be scum in a Sinori-flipping-town scenario. Of course it needs a flip and that's assuming there's no bussing here.


@Maenara:

Again, Why do you think there's a NK? IIRC there was only one NK, are you assuming there's a doc or something?

And, if I understand it well, I'm one of the 4 worth lynching players, right? Why is that, who are the other three according to your analysis, and why do you choose me?

[NJAC]

EWOP: ...Why do you think there's a SK?...

[NJAC]

Also, NJAC is still totally scum for doing nothing, reappearing at the most convenient of times, and being unwilling to do anything risky at all.

When are those convenient times and why are they exactly convenient for me? Did I mention I had RL stuff to deal with?

NJAC: Pick a target. All you've done on Day 2 is label Shinori as "incredibly anti-town" before backing off that claim in your very next post. Who should we lynch?

NJAC: Pick a target. All you've done on Day 2 is label Shinori as "incredibly anti-town" before backing off that claim in your very next post. Who should we lynch?

Easy man, I'm working on that. Here's what I've got until now:

First than all I was not "backing off that claim" as you say. I backed off that part of: "...makes no effort to avoid being lynched", as you can see in 729, because he was making an "interesting" case on Eleison. But it doesn't change the fact that he has been antitown the whole game.

Actually after masons claim I'm considering my sligthly town read on him. Now it's more null leaning scum, and definitely still antitown. In fact, if there's an hypothetical vig, as some of you said, he would still be a good target imo.

On another note your case on Maenara is sound. I myself was suspecting of her because she says I'm not scumhunting (that's actually true I must admit, and I'm also guilty of lurking because of RL stuff), but she herself hasn't donde a great scumhunting job, all I see is she's been supporting others cases and sheeping. That part of sheeping isn't scummy at all, but I have the sense she's a bit opportunistic jumping on the biggest wagons, and giving her own reasons pretending to be doing her scumhunting job.

I'm going to vote her, and I think masons should lead our actions, so I want to see more from them:

VOTE: Maenara

[NJAC]

P-edit: NJAC, the "masons" are confirmed as communicating outside this thread, not confirmed town (it's most probable they are but...). Don't follow them blindly.

I can believe their claim, just don't see them likely to be scums falseclaiming. If they're scum then their claim isn't a great move imho, if one of them dies (flipping scum) then the other is confirmed scum and they're lost, right? They're giving free info to scums, so now they have to deal with them. Maybe I'll suspect them if they don't become a NK target in a couple of nights.

Anyway for your tranquility I won't follow them blindly. I'll support them if their arguments make sense to me and they help us to win.

[NJAC]

@qwints:

While Telo is replaced I'd like to read your case on her being partner with Maenara. And if you could add something about the case on Thurhame/numbers it would be appreciated.

[NJAC]

I could certainly be persuaded to switch my vote to 10506670 or Telo since I think both of them have been scummy.

I see your point on Telo, but still think Mae is a better lynch. Actually without a replacement there's nothing we can get from Telo's slot, so I'm not sure a wagon makes sense here.

I'd like to see your case on Thurhame/numbers, is that the whole "scumslip/scumtell" thing?

[NJAC]

@Mae, I see you dodging my question, please answer it:

Also, NJAC is still totally scum for doing nothing, reappearing at the most convenient of times, and being unwilling to do anything risky at all.

When are those convenient times and why are they exactly convenient for me? Did I mention I had RL stuff to deal with?

Also, besides me who do you think is scummy right now?

[NJAC]

Yeah I saw 845 but:

1) You don't elaborate on them, and,

2) You said "some of them are very likely to change as you read on", that's way I ask you about your reads

right now

, because I suposse you're updating your reads constantly, aren't you?.

[NJAC]

Oh and do you think that being in two wagons is commiting, or risky or something townies do?

Also replace "careful" with "busy" in that line of: "You've been way too careful not to say anything". Fortunately I'm not that busy now, so if you have some questions or comments I'm here to answer.

[NJAC]

Not able to post too much on weekends, be posting asap.

[NJAC]

Reading now, be posting some responses to questions some of you did.

[NJAC]

They're so obviously a scum-team. Do you want me to do it on a post-by-post basis?

I do want

[NJAC]

FWIW and to make a quick response to a question tossed by someone before: I don't think Jun is scum, and her play is still consistent with her bad town play shown in the early phases of my last game with her. I still think her reasonings are a bit poor but she was determining in our victory in that game the last day.

I still support a Maenara or also a Shinori lynch. I'm not sure about the conections between Maenara and other players, I expect her to flip scum. If she flips town then I'll care about the analysis regarding to her interactions with others and scums pushing her wagon.

[NJAC]

I’m going to elaborate a bit more:

I think it was Theomoaner who asked me several pages ago about Jun. I already answered her play is consistent with the play on our mutual newbie game. I’ll just add to it that there’s something I like about her play: she uses to think by herself instead of just shipping. Neither sheeping nor not-sheeping is scummy, but I think that thinking by ourselves is something townies should also do, especially in the decisive phases of the game.

Just to conclude I’m not pretty damn sure as Hiraki about her towniness, so I’m not going to stop her lynch, even more considering the proximity of deadline, but I would really rather prefer a lynch on Maenara or Shinori. I’m also considering Enigma.

Next post: replying buldermar...

[NJAC]

Now to reply (I know it’s a bit outdated but I better answer) to buldermar:

NJAC:

NJAC did not vote Shinori on day 2. Instead, the first vote was on Elei.

And after the claim:

UNVOTE: Eleison
I'm not sure about Shinori, but if he's town then at least one scum being on his wagon makes sense to me. So, one (or even two) of Mae/Hiraki/numbers/buldermar/Rubik would be scum in a Sinori-flipping-town scenario. Of course it needs a flip and that's assuming there's no bussing here.

VOTE: Maenara

Q: Why do you think Mason should lead our actions? Would you be willing to lynch Shinori? What information are you hoping to gain from a Maenara lynch?

Notes: If Shinori flips town, that skews NJAC's alignment towards town (because of the absence of an opportunistic vote).

---

1) Well I see them as confirmed town, if we’re trying an agreement on whom we should lynch, then they must actively participate on that consensus. I also liked some of their reasonings so I think they can be very helpful to town and can lead us to victory. I feel it’s an advantage over scums to have claimed masons-confirmed townies, but as I said before I’m not going to follow ‘em blindly.

2) Yes.

3) As I said before I’m expecting her to flip scum and I’ll care to gain info after the flip. I’m also considering what you said in 1053: “

completely neglecting what can be derived from knowing that persons true alignment, is a fundamental mistake

”. I see what you did in 904 and what you’re trying to highlight, I also appreciate it because it’s a big effort from your part, and it really takes a lot of time to make that kind of posts.

However there’s something that bothers me a bit. You made your whole 904 post in response to theomoaner question: “Which scum-team permutations could we eliminate from a Shinori lynch?” I’m not going to quote the whole interaction but you said we’ll gain a “decent amount of information” lynching Shinori, and when asked you didn’t have the answer, even more you never gave a concise answer IIRC, you just went to look for walls of quotes to try to see the interactions and then threw a lot of questions everywhere, and that way you were somehow highlighting interesting interactions between everyone and Shinori.

Even more: you almost solved the whole game based on one flip. But your “notes” after the questions directed to players are mostly a lot of WIFOM, when you say someone will lean X when Shinori flips Y. I recognize your effort but don’t see it like the greatest post ever and I can imagine the exhausting of doing it. I tried something like that in my other games (time was never enough to make the posts I wanted), but I finally learned it’s better to be concise.

So, to conclude: I’ll take care of analyzing the interactions and wagon of a lynchee after their flip.

On another note: thanks for recalling that I wasn't on Shinori wagon, I saw qwints making an incoherent case against me... I'd also like to hear your "different reasons" for me being "the scummiest if Shino flips scum", as you said in 914.

And finally a couple of questions to you: Why exactly are you sure about Maenara's towniness at the point of calling her lynch "stupidity" from our part? Who can be completely sure about someone's scumminess or towniness?

[NJAC]

Sorry about the multipost, but I think it's better than a huge one. This one to Hiraki:

NJAC will be tomorrow's lynch, qwintz.

In your post before this one you said I was leaning null, I really don’t follow you and you don’t care to elaborate at all, anyway I’ll ask you: Do you still believe this and if so, why am I tomorrow’s lynch?

[NJAC]

@Buldermar: Deal. No lynch would be terrible:

UNVOTE: Maenara
VOTE: Shinori

[NJAC]

@Maenara: I still want to see your PbPA with regards to the "obviously scum-team" of Jun, Dividizzle and Enigma

[NJAC]

@buldemar regarding post addressed to me. What do you mean what use is it? Do you want me to make up a firm view when I'm not that confident. I'm sorry, I won't do that. You are telling me that you are 100% sure about the alignment of every player in this game? If I had to decide now I would say he's town but obviously I'm not sure, I apologize if my lack of omniscience inconveniences you. By the way treat this post as if it came before his most recent potential scumslip, which I haven't thought through.

I had your very same problem with that fence-sitting thing, it's impossible to be sure about your reads but you need to take a stance, it's up to you to hunt the scums and you need to decide by yourself who to lynch, who is town and who is scum, so take the stance and go for it. Maybe your initial logic will be wrong but it could be useful later, and if we stay on the said fence then how are we going to win when lynching is our only weapon?

[NJAC]

Honestly, looking at post 914 I don't currently recall what reasons I had in mind (I think you're the first to ask, and post 914 was quite a long time ago). I think I could remember by reading my previous posts, but I'd rather not spend time reading them again just for that. If it is important to you, or if you can't trust that I had different reasons, let me know and I'll do my best to recall it.

Let's wait for the flip and we'll see...

[NJAC]

Because the guy whose lynch I didn't advocate, but which I compromised on, turned out to be town? Because the guy who constantly tunneled on me D2 was killed during the night?

Look, there's such a thing as scum creating WIFOM, but I wouldn't be stupid enough to highlight it in the very first post of D3, posted 17 minutes after the day started, if I'd been the one to kill him.

Now can we please kill the obvious scum of obviousness?

Maybe you're smart enough to be WIFOMing us with all the "scums wouldn't do that" thing.

And I just don't think Maenara is scummy.

Man, you're going to need to explain why do you think she's not scummy.

[NJAC]

@Eleison: what are your thoughts so far?

[NJAC]

Too much WIFOM involved here. I'm taking a stance:

VOTE: Maenara

I still want to hear more about your case as you promised yesterday...

[NJAC]

Are Maenara and Buldermar town reads to you?

[NJAC]

Yeah some would say you're rolefishing but I agree with you here. We need more info to stop mislynching, I was also going to suggest PRs to share some info today, but considering we still have a day to get to mylo I suppose they must decide for theirselves what's better.

You didn't answer my question Smashbard: Are Buldermar and Maenara town reads for you? If so why is that?

[NJAC]

Also, for everyone: if you're a townie going to be lynched STOP the I'm-fine-with-lynching-me attitude. It's also pro-town to defend ourselves from being mislynched...

[NJAC]

Here, some questions to help me clarify my reads :

@Maenara: what happened with your case on Jun? why to pick dividizzle instead? and what do you think about the Masons?

@Eleison: I would really like to hear more from you, care to elaborate about your case on CE?

@numbers: you didn't answer why you think Maenara is town, care to answer?

@Hiraki: what do you think about the Masons and Jun? I'd also like to hear your read on me.

@TBM: you need to take a stance. What do you think about the Masons and Maenara? What have you found after rereading the Shinori's wagon you also supported?

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

@Buldermar: you were very pro-town yesterday but you have not done enough today imo. Any comments about the Shinori wagon you led? Also I'm expecting you to elaborate about your sheeping Maenara with the Divid wagon.

@Jun: you ramble a lot, but I still see you as town. Take a stance on this: Masons claim is true or false?

@Dividizzle I see you took a stance, but why Jun instead of CE, even more when you said something like: "...that could easily be a scumslip especially considering the implicit gloating"?

@Enigma: Care to elaborate about your case on Masons fakeclaiming? and why to choose Smashbard instead of Eleison?

@Smashbard: sorry, no questions for you yet

[NJAC]

Lol I just saw the video. Maybe we should lynch Jun just to see this guy eating that hat...

[NJAC]

Just to clarify I was not serious about your lynch and you should ignore the video if it annoys you...

[NJAC]

I was also going to suggest something like buldermar just suggested (that's why I asked nearly everyone their thoughts about the masons), but I didn't because my first impression was that it was a bad idea. Now I considered it again and it makes sense at some degree. I mean: we need more info to remove all the WIFOM we've got here, if PRs have not claimed they have their reasons (maybe they haven't got any definite info) and Smash insisting in their claim is bad, Eleison has done nothing, and having a confirmed mason (in case the lynchee flips so) instead of two wifomish unconfirmed, looks better.

I think lynching one of them pays the risk, we can mislynch anyway and will be still in mylo with no info (unless scums NK one of them). If we agree about advocating a "mason" lynch I think Eleison would be our lynch, but we still need to take our time, start pressing more, and in general scumhunt a lot.

I see buldermar hasn't gave up and that's good. Also:

@Smash: is you're a true mason please don't give up because we've mislynched, and be more confident about yourself because I agree with Theo here that Eleison isn't exactly the "godlike scum catcher".

@Eleison: you really need to give us more...

More incoming...

[NJAC]

Yeah, I must recognize I agree in this with Maenara.

@Theo: what is it so bad to lynch one of them?

@Hiraki: why are not we lynching one of them?

[NJAC]

@Maenara: I admit I've been tunneling a lot with you. One of the main reasons for this is because you've jumped/supported/advocated convenient wagons, and you're doing it again with the masons, so still suspicious about you... But I want to think you do that because of self-preservation or some other reasons.

Take a stance on the masons then and tell me who we should lynch today and exactly why. If you can develop a little about the info we'll get with their flip, and why that's a better lynch than whoever, then I'll start believing you're leaning a bit less scum...

I mean: say you're town, and we depend of you, it's your decision which will make us win or lose, who will you vote and why? Also how are you going to convince us to vote with you?

P-Edit: who are we lynching then?

[NJAC]

2) Depending on me is stupid. Depend on Buldermar or Theo, depending on which side you lean to. Duh.

What do you mean here?

[NJAC]

@Smashbard: do you realize that every "town" read you've got, with the exception of Buldermar, are the people who rejected the idea of lynching a mason. Have you ever thought that one of them could be scum being quite sure you're town, and trying to gain town cred by refusing to join a wagon on a mason?

In the other hand, and I tell you this because I've been expected a lot from Eleison and you, you need to admit that it's difficult at this point to blindly trust your claim, with all the WIFOM involved, and it's not like you're helping a lot to clear our doubts.

Is it bad or antitown that I ask questions to people to see what reactions we can get and try to catch scums?

[NJAC]

Actually, now that I think more about it claiming masons as scum would almost always be suboptimal, and I think Eleison especially realizes this. Currently I'm leaning towards not lynching and hoping that an investigator will investigate one of them and claim.

smashbard, would you elaborate on your current scumreads?

Why exactly claiming masons as scum is suboptimal?

[NJAC]

If you are to lynch a mason, which is a horrible idea, then I volunteer. After I flip, I will be sorely be dissapointed in you guys if Elieson dies tonight as a confirmed mason and no protective role tries to save him.

I explicitly said: STOP THE I'M-FINE-WITH-LYNCHING-ME ATTITUDE.

Jesus, if you're actually town why do you agree with lynching you, just like PM and Shinori did?

[NJAC]

@Eleison: Welcome back. Eager to see what you have to say...

[NJAC]

Why can't you do CE Hiraki?

P-Edit: Majiffy: Glad to have you here I really hope you're town, and from now on I'll assume that because Buldermar has a decent point with the investigative role about the masons. Welcome!

BTW: why CE instead of Maenara?

[NJAC]

Also Majiffy: what do you think about the Smash' mason play, and was it a good move to claim masons that early?

[NJAC]

@Majiffy: Do you think a CE lynch will lead us to victory? I mean are you expecting him to flip scum or his flip will more likely give us definite info? I also wonder about that "light" a CE flip will "shed"... e.g.: CE flipping scum makes Mae obv. scum?

And @Theo: a bit outdated but I didn't fully understand your post 1314. While I'm not refusing your points about the masons, because as I said buldermar already explained why falseclaiming masons as scums is suboptimal, I'd like you to clarify your odds.

I mean with two confirmed masons, it's 10 players left, 4 scums (I'm still wondering where you all get this but let's suppose it's likely) and 6 townies. That gives us a 4/10 (or 2/5) chance of not mislynching, right? Even if an hypothetical investigative role confirms two more townies, we would be in a 50/50 scenario (1/2 chance of mislynching) I guess...

[NJAC]

Isn't he just bad town? I somehow associate his play to Shinori's bad play or bad newbie play. Is that the whole hat "scumslip" thing? If it's the fencesitting I see a better case on dividizzle and if it's the apathy definitely a better case on TBM being scum...

[NJAC]

@Jun and I think @all: the problem with the CE wagon is that I just don't simply understand how is it different than the wagon on PM and Shinori. I can also imagine scums doing the same and using this wagon as a scapegoat, once more.

I see the two confirmed townies and you are on that wagon, but that doesn't mean you're right about CE. IIRC you and the two masons were on the PM wagon, and Smash was also on Shinori's. So why aren't you just wrong again? You're town, no doubt (especially the masons) but that doesn't mean you're "godlike scum catchers".

However I have no evidence to think CE is town either. I'm being considering the posibility of join the frikkin wagon, but I want to understand better the reasons behind it. And CE doesn't help at all just like PM and Shinori did.

@CE: if you remotely care about this game you need to do something pro-town, otherwise face death and be responsible with the other bad players about our lost.

P-Edit: That's right: Mae is very scummy, and she's the opportunistic scum we can't let go.

[NJAC]

@Hiraki: you're disconcerting to me. Your defense on CE is gut and meta?

You don't like the wagon but you'll consider hammering if deadline gets closer?

[NJAC]

@Smashbard: wrt 1418: How exactly have I been fencesitting? and how more than dividizzle?

[NJAC]

@Mae: there was a question to you here:

2) Depending on me is stupid. Depend on Buldermar or Theo, depending on which side you lean to. Duh.

What do you mean here?

Answer my question and I'll answer yours...

P-Edit: let Majiffy decide if that was an insulting post to him please.

[NJAC]

1) I meant that I'm a new player playing sorta poorly, in case you hadn't noticed. "Depending" on me is stupid; you should listen to my opinion, and weigh my arguments, but depending on me is out of the question, and hence a lousy hypothetical.

Just to clarify: are Buldermar and Theo obv. town? and when you said "depending on which

side

you lean to", what do you exactly refer to with "side" and how it relates to Buldermar and Theo, who of them is in the good side?

Now, just because you're a newb it doesn't mean you can't understand the game and be confident about yourself, right? Buldermar led the Shinori's wagon and he was wrong, he's not been in the site much longer than you, but he was confident about his read and tried to lead town where he thought was the best lynch. Think about it and tell me why town couldn't depend on you at any moment, just like it could depend on any of us...

Your play is harmful for town as you just point out some "scummy" things but you're not confident about it (and don't even care to press your scummy read enough) and spread your votes everywhere when there's a chance. If your wagons don't gain the "traction" you expect, maybe it's because you're not pushing enough, so you, in an OPPORTUNISTIC way, simply goes over someone who has gained that "traction".

This play of you is making you look very scummy and that's why my bet is on you...

[NJAC]

@Smash: Stop your frustrated attitude. Man it's a game sometimes you win, sometimes you just don't. Why do you give up at this point, when there's still so much to try and we need you cause you're one of the two confirmed townies?

If you truly believe someone is scum, go ahead and push his lynch with all you have. If you're not that sure, generate content that helps you decide, and also listen to the other players who are actually interested in the scumhunt. You, Majiffy and Jun should join us...

[NJAC]

Wow, don't take it personally Jun. There's a lot of frustration here so you may understand why the tone is getting like that. Remember: it's just a game.

And @all: calm down, take it easy and be tolerant wit those who think different than you...

[NJAC]

I'm off now, will come later to see what's going on...

[NJAC]

1) CE you're idiot, you should have claimed or tried something to avoid being lynched.

2)

I nominate us collectively for the Worst Town Award for the 2012 Scummies.

You're not a good leader.

3) I also hate you all for lynching CE instead of Maescum.

4) I don't see any breadcrumbs from CE or Theo, if someone sees something let us know.

5) Ok Majiffy CE was lynched, what's next?

6) Welcome pappums rat, eager to see what you have to say...

[NJAC]

Oh! and of course:

VOTE: Maenara

Can we get rid of scums please?

[NJAC]

1) With four hypothetical scums it's not lylo, it's mylo, what means we could still no lynch and have another chance to win tomorrow, right? But I think that's not our best move because:

2) I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Maenara is scum because a quicklynch hasn't happened, or, as dividizzle said, there's not a fourth scum, so we're not in mylo. Our best move is lynching Maenara.

With that in mind I'm not sure about how good is the massclaim at this point, but considering the facts in the game until now, why not try it? So:

VT here

[NJAC]

Actually I agree with you about Buldermar:

VOTE: Buldermar

If someone has some info or something to offer, this would be a good moment.

[NJAC]

@Mod: has numbers been prodded during night or something? if not a prod would be a good idea

[NJAC]

Fucking.

Lynch.

Hikari.

Stop fucking running up the circle derps and fucking listen.

Ok, I'm listening you, what's the deal with Hiraki?

[NJAC]

Also, why did you quickhammer Mae?

[NJAC]

You hammered Mae even when your top suspected scum Hiraki was voting her, why is that?

Also, your ISO doesn't say too much, you say something about Hiraki not reading the game and not explaining about the change on his read on Maenara, but I don't see it exactly like a case, if you could elaborate a bit more it would be helpful.

You need to make a bigger effort in order to lead our actions if you're town, do you realize you also supported every mislynch in this game since you replaced into?

[NJAC]

@TBM and @Buldermar, do you realize Smash is confirmed mason? Attacking him as town makes no sense. Also he hasn't been wrong alone, we ALL have been wrong with the lynches, so stop ignoring/attacking him and answer his (and other's) questions. Also a claim from your part would be nice...

[NJAC]

NJAC, since you are here what is your opinion on TBM's hammer yesterday?

His VC looks bad, as I said he supported every mislynch since he replaced in. He also put CE at L-1, and his hammer on Mae was just not necessary as deadline was far enough to get more discussion going on. Also he hammered a player whose top suspected scum was voting for, so it makes no sense at all. I agree he could have tried to push Hiraki lynch instead of hammering to avoid discussion.

Telo's play is also suspect imo, she tunneled CE and voted Mae IIRC.

I don't know what you all think but imho this guy is obvscum. I just don't want to get a quickhammer until we discuss what we've got here, so I'm not voting him yet, but know that I support his lynch.

In other news: what do you think about buldermar?

[NJAC]

@TBM and @Buldermar, do you realize Smash is confirmed mason? Attacking him as town makes no sense. Also he hasn't been wrong alone, we ALL have been wrong with the lynches, so stop ignoring/attacking him and answer his (and other's) questions. Also a claim from your part would be nice...

I'm not attacking him

per se

, I'm pointing out all the retarded things he is saying, some of which is aimed directly at me. Tell me - what questions do I need to answer?

Actually I think the whole thing he was asking was about TBM's "case" on Hiraki, and I realize now there were no questions to you.

But here, some questions to you:

1) Why do you think scums have not NK'ed you when you've been very pro-town and have been in almost everyone's townreads?

2) WRT 1636: I think it's clearly TBM instead of Jun/rat. You choose numbers over Hiraki, and you vote numbers. I'm not sure about dividizzle, he's more null leaning town to me atm. Q: what happened with your case on numbers, do you still think he's scum?

3) You don't vote TBM because Smash was voting him. Q: Was that your true and sole reason to refuse voting TBM or there was another motivation, even when you considered him one of the scums?

4) Why are you following one of your suspected scums (namely TBM) with the Hiraki wagon?

5) What's YOUR case on Hiraki?

[NJAC]

Well I wouldn't mind if you explain a little more about the case on dividizzle and how it relates to TBM.

I think there's only one mason so you must try to convince us the remaining townies instead, and the mason of course, who fortunately has decided to stop arguing with you.

I'm also interested in the hypothetical protective role, I think if there's one then they have useful info for us... But I agree with what you said in 1636 about it's likely there's no other PR in the game, because three scums are too few I think, so your response to my first question is not enough in that case.

[NJAC]

Now that I think it better the protective role has no info and it's pointless in your response, because he has not succeeded... what means mafia has simply not targeted you for some reason, right?

[NJAC]

Ehmmm... stating intend to hammer... someone disagree?

[NJAC]

Ok, time to decide...

After rereading some ISO's and considering what we've got until now I think this guy is obvscum.

If I'm wrong, well... gg scums, but I'm pretty sure this time we're right:

VOTE: TBM

[NJAC]

if you're truly town then I agree we still need to learn, but then you also need to behave PROTOWN next game. Jesus, you saw all these bad players behaving antitown as hell and you decided not to elaborate enough on your "case", attacking pro-town players, and blaming us for our mislynches when you also supported them. No man this doesn't work like that, you need to be clear in order to lead the townies the right way.

Also your overall play in this game is far from protown, and you made no effort to avoid being lynched, not even a claim or something.

Seriously, are you town?

[NJAC]

Can someone please explain me why the game isn't over yet? Are only two scums... 2 between 16?

[NJAC]

Ok, I think I need to reread a bit but at first glance I'm saying definitely Buldermar and one between numbers and Hiraki/greygnarl/TheLocomotion, with numbers leaning more scum than TLM.

On another note: ideas about the setup? it's just two scums vs town compound by vanillas and two blockers? Is that even balanced?

[NJAC]

How so? How does the blocker affect scums?

Three scums, six players... it's autowin for them, no?

P-Edit: So, if you're town you're just giving up? I'm letting you know, I'll lynch you.

[NJAC]

Wait a min... again, why is buldermar clear?

[NJAC]

Dividizzle was obvtown when he didn't hammer, right? But now, the reasons for what he was obvtown are pointless, because they were based on the assumption that there were three scum and we were in mylo, right? Anyway killing a conftown is not a bad move for scums, is it? So I don't see why buldermar wouldn't kill him.

[NJAC]

You're right dividizzle became obvtown for everybody after TBM's flip because he didn't hammer, so read that like "Dividizzle was obvtown when he didn't hammer AND TBM FLIPPED TOWN". And I hammered because I was pretty sure TBM was scum, but looking it in hindsight it's obvious that numbers and/or TLM were pushing his lynch. Also, I suspected TBM even more when bulder was with him. Bulder voting him looked to me like bussing.

Off now, brb later... still think Bulder is scum and bulder/numbers or bulder/TLM makes sense, though bulder voting for Hiraki and TLM voting for Bulder looks a bit unnecessary for a scumpair (it's not like scums need to bus like that at this point I think), and considering greygnarl is kinda newb, I'm leaning more for bulder/numbers.

[NJAC]

And NJAC:

Ok, I think I need to reread a bit but at first glance I'm saying definitely Buldermar and one between numbers and

Hiraki/greygnarl/TheLocomotion

, with numbers leaning more scum than TLM.

On another note: ideas about the setup? it's just two scums vs town compound by vanillas and two blockers? Is that even balanced?

Isn't it quite perculiar that they both were on the TBM wagon, they both were so certain of TBM being scum, and they are now both so certain about ME being scum. In the meantime,

they don't find each other even remotedly suspicious

. I'm completely fine with lynching TheLocomotion and I'm strongly reconsidering my initial read of NJAC.

I think the very same post you're quoting explicitly says I also suspect TheLocomotion, and I didn't even vote you because I'm not as sure about my reads now as I was about TBM and maybe Maenara. So it's false that I don't find TLM "remotedly" suspicious, and wrt my reads I think that's the reason to why I'm still alive, just like buldermar, because I've been wrong and you can use that to your favor like you're doing it right now.

[NJAC]

EBWOP: ...I think that's the reason to why I'm still alive, just like SMASHBARD, because I've been wrong...

[NJAC]

I'm actually liking Numbers, he sounds like a townie jsut trying to come clean.

Who are you? Hiraki or greygnarl? Are you agree now about your reads? what do you have to say about TBM's case on you regarding to you not reading the game and just wanting to lynch? What's your read on me? What's your read on rat?

[NJAC]

Ok right, that's L-1 and Hiraki never claimed IIRC, so I'm demanding you to claim, what means I'll consider hammer if you don't give me a good reason.

Also, and just to take our time to discuss, YOU SHOULD UNVOTE RAT because I think numbers could hammer and we'll lose.

[NJAC]

rat? r u there? Fine, some of you, smash, rat or even bulder at this point, should unvote until we discuss this better. I'm not saying TLM is town, but I have my doubts and you should have them too. So.... UNVOTE BEFORE NUMBERS HAMMERS, because with two scums we're in mylo, if we're wrong there's no more chance to win, right?

[NJAC]

Oh my... well I'm off now, I hope you see this before numbers and unvote, I mean we're somehow agreeing about him being scum and we're letting him hammer , gg town...

[NJAC]

Though I admit I somehow saw you like a PR throughout the game, especially the first days, I think it would be pretty unbalanced to have a town compound by 11 vanillas, 2 blockers and 1 1-shot dayvig vs two simple scum

How does your power exactly work? maybe you could paraphrase your role.

On another note: It's clear at this point that if TLM is town then numbers can't be scum, right? However if he's scum it doesn't inmediately means numbers is scum because that would also apply to me , but it would be very likely, though the scumpartner bussing also becomes a possibility.

On a related note: If TLM is not lying, is it possible for the setup to have a third party role or another mafia team with no factional kill? I also imagine a third party with limited capabilities or something, because there has been only one kill per night, or it could be an incredible coincidence that the mafia team and this other role have chosen the same target for the NK for more than one day

[NJAC]

Actually it would be 9 vanillas, 2 masons, 2 blockers and 1 1-shot dayvig vs two simple scum... I definitely don't believe your claim.

[NJAC]

@NJAC: how do you know the scum dont have power roles?

I don't know it. What kind of PRs for scum would make it balanced? I can imagine an investigative role for them or something (they NK'ed a blocker) but still think that's not enough. But you're right about there's a lot of possibilities not considered yet, so maybe his claim is not that false.

I also agree that we must vote about who should be killed in case TLM is saying the true. Day would be over after the kill?

[NJAC]

@Mod: Would day be over after TLM's kill?

[NJAC]

Ok, I'm a bit confused but I'll share my thoughts the way they're coming:

I'm not completely sure about TLM's claim tbh. And after reading buldermar's latest posts I think there's a slight chance he's not scum. From my perspective these are the two possibilities:

1) TLM is lying and numbers is his partner.

2) TLM is saying the true, numbers is town, bulder and rat are the scumpair.

What would I suggest?

We should demand TLM to kill numbers, if he refuses to do it or simply the kill is not performed (because he's not a dayvig as he says) then we're confirming both as scum. If TLM kills numbers and he flips scum, I'll be more confused about TLM's alignment and be wondering a lot about why numbers didn't hammer, but we'll finally get rid of one scum. If TLM kills numbers and he flips town, then TLM's claim will be confirmed and the obvious scumpair will be bulder and rat.

Please tell me if I'm missing something.

[NJAC]

LocoMotion, from your perspective this means that, given you actually ARE a dayvig as you claim, you need to kill one of NJAC and numbers. These are your only two logical options.

How in this world would these be his logical options? If he's town as he says he would not kill those who didn't hammer him. In that case the logical options are those who were in his wagon (namely you and rat).

[NJAC]

I don't understand this epidemic of townspeople not defending themselves, I think that's why scum took that advantage in the game; numbers could have tried to defend himself . However his sacrifice is worthwhile and now the puzzle is solved.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point who the scum are. Bulder and rat was going for a flawless victory and we almost mislynched TLM, but they didn't count with him being a dayvig .

Smashbard and TLM, our only way to win this is if we three vote in block, so you MUST sheep me in order to win:

VOTE: buldermar

[NJAC]

@buldermar, so you say you're available to answer questions, maybe you could explain why scumNJAC wouldn't hammer TLM when it would be scumwin... Meh! I think the evidence is irrefutable, and now it becomes clear how you played to fool us all.

I mean, you were in almost every mislynch, you advocated the mislynch on Shinori (even a no lynch was better for town but not for you), you tried to get towncred by refusing to be in CE's wagon and you were sure about his innocence because only a scum could have been sure about it, you jumped on TBM's wagon when had the chance... you even tried to bring the idea of lynching a mason, and then gained towncred by explaining how it was suboptimal to falseclaim masons as scum...

You're scum, no doubt, and you're lost.

[NJAC]

And wrt why I asked rat specifically in 1837, I think it's too obvious but I'll explain you: rat posted between my posts, so he was online. In fact looking in hindsight he refusing to unvote when I explicitly asked him makes him your partner.

He also persuaded me to hammer TBM. I saw his slot as town because of meta reasons (Jun played this game similar to my other game with her being town), but I see now it was all a strategy. You trying to bus your partner now won't save your skin...

[NJAC]

Nah, you don't need to apologize, it's like you said: this game was full of antitown newbs, and that made it easy for us. The hard part was the latest days I think.

I didn't understand why Hiraki didn't want to use his unlimited power of daykill, but I respected his decisions. Good game Hiraki.

I also think, greygnarl, you made a great move by claiming, otherwise you could have been lynched.

[NJAC]

Yeah, buldermar solved it all in a row of posts, but he wasn't sure about it

[NJAC]

Or didn't push enough...

[NJAC]

Sure, why not? Scum QT

[NJAC]

Could've sworn it was a one-shot

Oh well!

I also asked you this in the QT and I thought it was perfectly clear for you.

[NJAC]

And yeah, TBM was right, but fortunately for us he didn't get too much leverage.

And Mollie, maybe you should post a bit less next game.

[NJAC]

And yeah, TBM was right, but fortunately for us he didn't get too much leverage.

And Mollie, maybe you should post a bit less next game.

[NJAC]

How did that double post happen?

Anyway good game everyone and thank you myko, nice flavor.

[NJAC]

How did that double post happen?

Anyway good game everyone and thank you myko, nice flavor.