Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[Skelda]

Hiya everyone. I'm Skelda. Amy, I think "because he can" is his reasoning, but it also kind of strikes me as a bit arbitrary.

[Skelda]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

Well, I think farside's opinion on replacements is very wrong and I'm not even following how someone responding or not responding to the mod makes a lick of different. But I still think he is Town because he really seems to genuinely believe it. And I'm giving scumpoints to Beli and Chaos since farside would be such an easy wagon to join for scum. Is it an absolutely rubbish case? Yes. Is it scummy? I don't think so. And I don't want to give Blond too much credit for that, it isn't exactly hard to defend yourself against a case that you have no way of defending yourself against.

[Skelda]

Why are you turning this into argumentum ad absurdum by changing the argument to involve all replacements, requested or not?

Because I'm not. Those links were two games where the mod specifically stated replacement was requested, and one where a pregame replacement occurred without sufficient delay to gamestart for it to be anything

but

a request.

"Active elsewhere" is not relevant; there is no cause and effect relationship between replace-out requests and activity elsewhere. What's next, are we going to limit the criteria to a specific moon phase, making it even more impossible to get a sufficient sample size to be meaningful? How about only looking at replacements who are dog owners?

Oh yuck. That is kind of twisty isn't it? Look, I get that farside's thing sucked, but at the same time, you can't try to feign completely not understanding his point. Active elsewhere isn't entirely irrelevant in his mind because he thinks that some players just don't like playing scum and are liable to replace out if they get a scum role, but just replacing out because you are a Newbie is completely null. Now, that isn't entirely accurate obviously, because some players just realize they signed up for too many games and don't have the time to devote to all of them, so they choose. And it isn't fair to assume that someone is scum based on something pregame that they had nothing to do with and can't make a case against. But you at least have to see why farside thinks what he does. It isn't that hard to figure out. But you try and pound the nails in the coffin and make him seem much worse than he is by comparing something that obviously have some minor level of relevance to something with NO relevance. This really isn't a good post.

VOTE: Beli There we go.

[Skelda]

Chaos' post,

Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

I do find scummy, but in the past I've found it to be a stronger associative tell than a flat out. A scum coming in to defend their buddy sort of way. Two votes on a buddy may look more dire than it is. I can especially see this with a newer player. I suppose it could be a scum Chaos busing a scum farside and overexagerrating a wagon but I find it less likely.

I like this post.

I think the tone of the post reinforces the defensive aspect. It's a slight example of more reductio ad absurdum, whereby chaos is suggesting that the phrase 'let's dance' was the cause of a 'wagon'. Some specific wording in the post like 'no real evidence' for example, also give off a scummy vibe.

I really like you Amy. I really hope you aren't scum because I'm just writing you off as Town in my head. Probably shouldn't do that, but I don't like thinking that people who agree with me are scum.

Anyway, with Chaos, I do agree that his single post was scummy, but he is a newer player and I'm kind of just giving him a pass and letting him redeem himself. There is confusion in that post, and I think the confusion is genuine whether he is Town or scum. Meep, I could see him going either way.

[Skelda]

I have no idea what's going on.

UNVOTE:

I'll give this a try tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Towntell. I know I definitely felt this way just before my posts in this game. Would scum be less likely to say that they were confused? I dunno, I feel like Town are more open about how they are feeling.

[Skelda]

Concerning Beli,

Beli, please tone down the sarcasm just a tad as it's not necessary and does nothing to aid the conversation.

I'm afraid I'm going to go ahead and reject that unfounded stipulation -- and, by the transitive property, the demand premised by it.

I look at this and go, would scum be so flippant?

I assumed that Beli would just be like that regardless of alignment. But that kind of brashness does seem town in general, so I dunno.

[Skelda]

And who's scum-reading me, and for what reason?

Not a fan of this post.

On a different note, instead of bickering over some GD issue and asking scummy questions, how do you feel about actually participating? Y'know, post your opinions about others, ask questions, take a look at posts that other people have found scummy/townish and throw in your opinion. You've seen the other people playing do this, it's your turn now.

I'm not sure who WOULD be a fan of that post.

Which of course begs the question of if scum would do something so blatantly scummy. He is new, and based on what he has given us so far, he just seems like an easy target to me. There is, of course, the off chance that he actually is scum, I don't think his play would be much different. But I don't think we have quite enough to make that decision yet. And most people seem to agree with me and have him as null. I think having him as anything else is scummy.

It is interesting how quickly the Chaos wagon is taking off. What is Chaos guilty of that Beli isn't other than not being around?

[Skelda]

I look at this and go, would scum be so flippant?

Yep!

God I loved that game.

UNVOTE:

You are clearly talented scum, so we should keep our eyes on you, but this is too Townie to ignore.

My top scumread is probably Chaos, but he has a lot of votes and so I'm not sure I want to join the horde. My top townreads are A.F.F. and NJ. A.F.F. because she is just town and Naked for his unique reads.

[Skelda]

What about the number of votes on him makes you not want to vote?

Well two things.

One is that I instinctively try to avoid wagons with large numbers of people on them early in the game since at that point it really isn't adding much more pressure. The first few votes have large amounts of pressure, but as people keep voting the significance of each individual vote goes down.

And secondly, large D1 wagons are often scum-driven and that often makes me townread the person being wagoned. So it makes me actually doubt that he is scum because of how easily votes are coming in. My scumread would be stronger if there wasn't a wagon on him.

[Skelda]

I think the first few big wagons of the day are just as likely to be scum driven as town driven. There is incentive to to be driving or helping drive a wagon as well as not being on it. I also don't think 4/8 is very many people on him.

Are you reading Chaos as more likely to be town because of his wagon? Is where anyone on Chaos you are suspicious of?

I would have a higher degree of suspicion on Chaos if he didn't have a wagon because, although his first posts were scummy, they weren't scummy enough for all of those people to feel the need to vote for him.

Of the people on Chaos, however, I am feeling like Snugglyduckling and acryon are Town. So, if there are scum on him, I'd say they are in Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde.

[Skelda]

VOTE: RoyalApe is a good vote I think.

[Skelda]

[quote="In

I still haven't decided which one of you to vote though.

I'll go with

VOTE: RoyalApe
because of the obscene quoting stacks

If you had put the vote for me based on the reason you stated earlier in regards to my thoughts on Acryon and Duckling, I would accept the vote and move on. But using this as your reason to vote for me is just silly. We're not in RVS anymore.

This post is super scummy. There is no reason to assume that the reason he stated was the sole thing influencing his vote. Reasoning is stackable. Your defensive reasoning seems like scum to me.

[Skelda]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

Because I bothered to count. Sue me.

I'm not sure why everybody is in a tizzy about my question. Especially as I've never stated that I thought it was scummy to count votes yourself.

I simply found it interesting enough to ask the question. That's what this game is about isn't it, looking for peculiarities and investigating them?

Except that is completely irrelevant to everything. It was a stupid question and phrased like you thought her actions were scummy.

[Skelda]

[quote="In

I still haven't decided which one of you to vote though.

I'll go with

VOTE: RoyalApe
because of the obscene quoting stacks

If you had put the vote for me based on the reason you stated earlier in regards to my thoughts on Acryon and Duckling, I would accept the vote and move on. But using this as your reason to vote for me is just silly. We're not in RVS anymore.

This post is super scummy. There is no reason to assume that the reason he stated was the sole thing influencing his vote. Reasoning is stackable. Your defensive reasoning seems like scum to me.

Reasoning is certainly stackable, I can buy that. But couldn't you let Jogger defend his own vote?

Jogger still can defend his own vote.

[Skelda]

Okay so I finally read through everything and this is my first comment on the wagon against me. Although looking back now, I can see how my vote and my reasoning can seem scummy I think the speed of my wagon and the lack of people questioning the idea of my one post proving rather or not I'm scum is actually a legitimate way to look at things is pretty bad. I definitely think that scum is on my wagon and are influencing it although to who is exactly scum I'm not quite sure. I'm going to post a reads list after my next class tonight and will go from there. Also, if there are certain questions I have missed please direct them towards me and I will do my best to answer.

Lack of people questioning "rather" your first post is a legitimate way of looking at things?

I mean, your wagon is four people, right? It isn't like you are at L-1 or anything. And I think a lot of us, including you, have acknowledged that your first post was scummy. But, since we aren't all voting for yoh, not exactly sure what your point is.

But you are the sort of person who is incapable of not being scummy. That's the impression I get, at least. And you might be scum and play exactly as you do as Town and still get lynched becaus you are just so lynchable. But I think I'm retracting my scumread on you, oddly enough, and putting you as null. Sure, your posts are horrible. But after reading more of them, I feel like they are going to be horrible no matter what alignment you happen to have. But being like that also makes you pretttyhard to townread or read at all.

What is your opinion on RoyalApe?

[Skelda]

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

[Skelda]

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

its CKD (so no one is confused)

it is not your town reads I have a problem with...it is the fact they were provide out of no where.

at what point did the Chaos wagon become a scummy place to be?

what is your assessment of my entry into the game? other than my read on you, any of my other observations stick out to you, why or why not?

Sorry about your name, not sure where that came from.

My townreads definitely weren't out of nowhere. It isn't like I'm pulling names out of a hat and choosing people to be town. What I'm doing is looking at people's posts and trying to see if the person who posts really thinks what they post. When Town post, they believe everything that they are saying is true even if it is awful. That's why I'm starting to think people like NakedJogger and Chaos are Town, because even though they don't always make the most sense they always seem to completely believe the things that they say.

The Chaos wagon became a scummy place to be when it became clear that Chaos was going to be easy to lynch. He is an easy target and he will be more than scummy enough to get well-meaning townies to vote for him. I wish we had a town game of his that I could go to, because I recognize him as someone who is going to be scummy no matter what his alignment is. And yes, it is easy to vote for her. There are plenty of reasons you can put and make your posts make perfect sense and once he flips scum, everyone won't hold it against you because he did act scummy. But I think there is a difference between acting scummy and being scum and if he isn't scum, he sure is an easy person for scum to mislynch Day 1.

Other than your posts about me, I completely agree with your first post. Your comments about Toby and Dry were very convincing, and then I read down a little and your comments about me were very convincing. I actually am going to give you a townread because heck, most of these people are town and there is nothing wrong with having a lot of townreads. You don't seem like someone trying to frame me, you seem like someone who actually believes I am scum.

Anyway, we don't have that many days left. We need to get some sort of wagon going pretty soon.

I'll do a VOTE: Toby.

[Skelda]

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

Town reads are valuable, but yours didn't seemed to be based on much.

Which of my townreads aren't based on much?

[Skelda]

@Skelda

, can you give a more definite moment when you believed Chaos was going to be an easy lynch? Also, what points about dry-fit and Toby (me) that CKD made that you agree with and what does it mean to you? CKD didn't mention either of us much so I want to see what you got out of it.

Definitive moment? Hmmmph. Well, I mean, it was a horrible first post and I'm not trying to dispute that, but right off the bat it isn't a post from someone who is difficult to lynch. It is a post from a new player who is unable to not be scummy and if those players aren't scum they are easy scum targets. So I guess I probably started thinking he was easy to lynch after seeing all of the votes on him and reading his first post over again, honestly. It definitely wasn't until after the wagon was there, I initially was in the camp who didn't like him I believe.

He just pointed out your poor reasons for casting serious votes early in the game. I think with you it was your "Lots of people self-voted" post, because it was kind of twisting actions into something they weren't. It wasn't really a huge thing on my mind, since the vast majority of his post was him suspecting me. But given that both of you are among the few people who haven't been particularly Townie this game, I just thought it was worth mentioning, especially since he asked me about what I thought of his entrance other than the part about myself.

[Skelda]

I'm rethinking my Toby scum read.
Sometime I think she's just asking questions to look productive, then I read this page and I wonder if she just doesn't post thoughts all the time.

Skelda: why did you vote for Toby?

She was just someone who I didn't get particularly Town vibes from and I really didn't like the people who had votes. I am really not confident that she is scum, though.

Of the people with votes, I am most likely to go back to Beli. I really do not think that Chaos is scum. I guess I could see acryon, not really sure. But I am not in the mood to die Day 1 again.

[Skelda]

Do you not think AFF is just Town? I mean, her posts just exude Town. She's pretty much a universal townread at this point, there is no point in giving a better reason.

As for Jogger, I feel like if he were scum he would be putting more effort into following what is going on and not admitting that he doesn't know what is happening. That just doesn't seem like a scum thing to do. And scum don't believe what they are saying. Scum no what they are saying is false and say it anyway. There is definitely a difference there.

And look, I get why my play doesn't agree with you. Maybe I'm throwing out townreads based on gut and my whims and maybe I'm changing my mind about reads or getting my reads all murky. Whatever. But there is a difference between disagreeing with the way I'm playing and thinking I'm scum.

I don't really expect you to change your mind about me and I'm probably getting lynched at some point regardless, so I'm not even sure why I'm trying to convince you.

[Skelda]

I still think RoyalApe is scum. That never changed. You are exactly correct, I abandoned that wagon because it was proving to not be fruitful. If a whole bunch of people suddenly switched and said, "Ooo, RoyalApe, scummy." then I would be very happy to put my vote back there. But my Toby vote was just a compromise lynch of sorts.

And the whole thing about defensive being scummy...I think it is pretty normal for Town to want to defend themselves when they are being attacked. I get why doing that excessively is scummy, though. Gah, I am going to be lynched at some point in this game most likely. I just wish I wasn't so freaking suspicious all of the time.

And CKD, I didn't think I was buddying, I was just saying what I thought. How are you supposed to present townreads without seeming like you are buddying? If I have a feeling that someone is Town am I supposed to keep that to myself?

[Skelda]

VOTE: Beli I guess. I dunno, if I'm going to be lynched I guess I wouldn't have a huge objection to it being today. What I do not want to do is survive by a thread and then hang around as an easy mislynch for the rest of the game.

CKD, I'm sorry I don't act Town enough for you then. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking at the time of that post, but I was just addressing his points and not paying attention to whether or not he was scum. And I mean, that's horrible obviously. That's just poor play on my part. I really hate when you have a case built up against you that has plenty of valid points, if it weren't for the fact that you were Town.

But like I said, I really see myself being lynched at some point anyway. I'm really glad I wasn't scum this game because then you would have been right.

[Skelda]

Oh, and I really hope we can get some sort of lynch before the day is up. If need be I'll switch to Chaos or myself just for the sake of a lynch.