Micro 407: Jurassic Park Mafia - Game Over

[fferyllt]

hi guys.

catching up!

UNVOTE:

[fferyllt]

has their ever been a micro with 3 scum? if yes i'd love to see that game

I played a themed micro once with 2 scum and 2 3rd parties. Also played a themed micro with two scum and an SK.

Set-up speculation is not good for town.

We should stop doing it.

Is this the bitter experience of a certain mini normal speaking?

page 3, and I like scripten. Beck seems pretty paranoid, which I tend to think town. Or 3rd party. Are we thinking 3rd party is a thing for reals? Post 60 is either coming from town or from a scum who has internalized the hell out of a fake claim. Wondering if AA9 provides fake claims when she sends out role pms or if she waits to be asked.

All I know is that non-Herbivores must die.

More votes on the fleshchewer BBT.

And for the record, I have been in a micro on this site with a scumteam and a Serial Killer.

This post is the one I really dislike Scripten.

It's like 'Well, I'm town and I'm a herbivore, so everyone else needs to die'.

But it seems scum are omnivores

, so if he were scum don't you think he would know a town carnivore would speak up?

I will concede bringing up the idea of scum/3rd party does concern me a little but seeing him explain how he got there calmed those concerns

Why did you think the bolded?

Yawn.

Do you always suck at reading people this badly? I can see why you got defensive when I voted you.

This post bothers me. Scripten has his vote on beck, but this comment doesn't assume beck is scum. Which makes the comment about being defensive not fit. It's an extremely mixed narrative.

Except I never got defensive, and I don't appreciate you insulting me. Do it again and ill report you to the mod

Wasn't insulting you, bud. It's your play I was insulting. Your read is so far off it's laughable and you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I voted you, and you responded with an OMGUS vote that you tried to cover up with a half-baked excuse of a case to play it off as something else. Got anything better or are you just going to call me dense and cry when I tell you that your play is poor?

And more. :/

Oh it posted lmaoo my computer was being weird sorry. Just RVS VOTE: Scripten because aggressiveness is kinda bleh

Don't like the above much. So much real data in the thread to inform a vote.

@Scripten - how many reads would you expect someone to have formed at the point where you asked beck for more reads and less setup spec?

I like beck's 124. Town thought process IMO.

I don't like 129 by mathdino.

131 - I like this post because thinking what I'm thinking when I'm thinking it.

Got free time faster than expected

No real reads as yet, but I may pass out from all of the stupid fumes being given off from is thread. Even if the mod didn't outright state that it's not carnivores vs herbivores etc,

someone outright herpderping that they're a carnivore would've made that obvious.

Scum would have to be absolute blithering morons to advertise it otherwise

In fact...yeah. I take it back. Mild townread on Gribble for herpderping, moderate scum read on Blueblood for unreasonable pouncing

Vote: BluebloodedToffee

What are you talking about in the bolded?

This post feels mega defensive (possibly white knighting Grib?) to me.

VOTE: Pine

P-edit: To my understanding, scum are the dinosaurs which don't follow the park rules. They can be herbivores, carnivores or omnivores --> the type of dinosaur is not alignment indicative

Not really sure how it's possible to be defensive when I wasn't being attacked. What was meant by the bolder was that, even if we didn't know per Mod that -vote status wasn't alignment indicative, someone coming out and saying "I'm a carnivore" should be a clue to that effect. It would otherwise be playing against wincon and tantamount to saying "BTW I'm scum"

This thread is moving annoyingly fast. If people could keep all of the personal shit out of it, and make their posts on-topic and worth reading, it would be a lot easier to stay current.

Beck? We've had issues in the past. Talking to you as well as others on this. Please don't pick unnecessary fights and clog up the thread with nonsense

Grib? Stop engaging.

BBT barreling ahead on flavor alone makes me very, very content wi my vote. It's staying on him.

By the way, BBT, I didn't actually defend Grib, more or less at all. I called you out for scummy logic, which you're continuing with

^^ The last line here is pretty much the definition of chainsawing, no?

I mean he knows grib's role pm directly contradicts the pm he supposedly has, yet he believes grib is telling the truth amd isn't suspicious about it.

Town would be suspicious of that, whenever somebody contradicts a town role pm, that means the person is lying.

The alternative would mean that script is being naive but I dont see that as a possibility.

P.edit - By default yes, not by their play

Do you often play themed games?

No, because is don't feel it has merit. It's you using a buzzword.

As for your OMGUS, I came out hard against you, and now you're throwing whatever you can at me to see what sticks. I calls it likes I sees it

^^ The irony here amuses me.

I like to get town-reads and work with those town-reads.

Helps me narrow down the pool I need to lynch from to find scum.

It bothers me a little that you saw what Pine was doing as buddying, given this. :/

186 - more thinking what I'm thinking. I'm a little less enthused because of his own parallelism fail, though.

Town -> Scripten, Beck, Insanity

Null -> Finn, Math, Yung

Scum -> Grib, Pine

In order. So Finn is closer to town and Yung closer to scum. Math a true null.

At this point, my off the cuff reads are

Town:

Grib

Beck

Maybe Town:

Insanity (will need to see more here before I can say town, but I like what she's posted so far)

Scripten

BBT

Not So Town:

MathDino

Yung

Pine

Mathdino's 235:

I hate the reasons for the insanity townread even though I'm townreading insanity at this point. And I don't like the conclusion paragraph, though it's possible we develop reads really, really differently. This post didn't do anything to change her placement in my reads list.

And page 10 ends with an L-1 wagon and a claim. :/ Unseemly haste, guys.

I'll post my catch up in 10 page chunks and see how that goes.

[fferyllt]

When do we ever agree on day 1?

[fferyllt]

Also, if you're going to diss my reads, kindly do so with details.

[fferyllt]

Why did you think the bolded?

Misread the mods post and.thought that was what she said.

No I don't play many themes

That kinda helps put some of your posts into perspective.

[fferyllt]

I have him and BBT as unaligned pairs.

Why are you asking easy questions?

^^ What was it about the 2 posts that gave you the feel of unaligned pairs? Why do you feel like it couldn't be town vs town?

255 - I like this post.

257 - this reminds me. I replaced into a game where beck-scum had replaced out recently. One huge difference in his play here vs there is how much less in-your-face he was there.


262 - Scripten, why were you more sure Pine was town here?

263 - if beck is involved in another L-1 grandstand in the next 30 or so pages I'm probably going to want to put my vote where Finn had it.

If it makes no sense, why did you unvote?

P.edit - I know you arent l-1, doesn't matter. People unvoted you cause you soft claimed and it doesn't work like that. Your partner umvoted first, causing insanity to also unvote.

Proper play is a person refuses to claim = death by lynch.

If mafia were played by hard and fast rules like this, it would be an easy game for scum and a boring game for town.

Page 12, and Pine looks a lot better. Grib looks worse.

309 makes my head hurt. Beck am I gathering correctly that you come from a chatmafia background?

311 is dramatic as fuck, but drips town IMO.

320 trips one of my pet peeves.

329 it's maaaybe possible my vote would have been here if I had been in the game at that point, but the composition of yung's wagon here gives me pause. But, I really like the explanation in BBT's 332 because this is what I disliked about yung's RVS post.

man you guys sure like flashwagons (page 14).

352 <3 my predecessor. Totally agree with the first paragraph.

357 however, I can see someone voting a person because they dislike something they don't think is alignment indicative.

OK so in the meantime we lose 2 townies before we Lynch scum, that's not a trade off I'm on with

This looks like a scum slip, maybe. :/


But, beck's page 16 posts are so stubborn and singleminded (and thoroughly wrongheaded) that I want to call him town anyway.

Also, nobody else picked up that potential slip?

Welcome to the game, Majiffy!

BBT:

Wait, you're scumreading Beck, Grib, and Majiffy's slot? Can you give a rundown on their order of scuminess? Just curious.

Do you base your reads on how many scum think are in the game?

411 pings.

420 also pings, mostly for moving the vote. I know some players think that voteliness is next to godliness, but it still bugs me when people move their vote rather than unvote and regroup.

421 has a lining up lynches feel to it.

Single minded? No
Speaking the truth? Yes

Cop/tracker/watcher/role blocker/doc/gunsmith/bodyguard/big

None of those are confirmable. Some would argue big could be bu that could be SK.

There's not a single role that is ACTUALLY confirmable, that can't be confirmed today.

This is a very short list of possible roles. And there are some confirmable roles that can't be confirmed on day 1. There are more roles that are confirmable wrt actions but not 100% confirmable as to alignment. But, mafia isn't a game of blacks and whites, except wrt to the role cards themselves. Players are all shades of grey. That's why it's a social game.

Page 18 and 19 BBT goes from pretty mild townreading of my predecessor to hard-defending Finn. This makes me feel really odd.

486 comes off incredibly town to me.

It

is

fucking scummy because he claims he can prove it.

Why don't you get this.

Its not though, it town believes every soft claim, scum would never get lynched.

I get you don't share my opinion, just like I don't share yours but scum HAVE gotten lynched while fake claiming that means town players exsist that share my opinion. Saying my opinion is scummy is factually wrong cause I have proved it wrong

I've seen scum fake claim considerably more often than soft claim. I've seen town softclaim more often than I've seen scum softclaim.

It's all anecdote, and you haven't proven anything at all. Neither have I. Neither has anyone else. Claims and softclaims come in the context of the player's play prior to the claim and after.

And that's page 20.

[fferyllt]

I'm going to respond to this post separately because of it's length and content.

Alright, reads.

Grib:

His defence of hopping on the Scripten wagon was slightly WIFOMy but I'm not getting the wagon on him. He seems like just a medium activity townie who's speaking his mind. He still hasn't answered to one thing though:

Grib, what ARE your reasons for voting Scripten back there?

Can you give some examples of town speaking his mind posts?

Beck:

I said it before, I really don't like Beck given the ISO of him/Scripten. But pushing a possible PR lynch like this is plain anti-town. Softclaiming is not a scumtell. Scripten isn't even scummy. I'm confident with this vote.
VOTE: Beck

And what was the scum motivation for Beck making such a huge bag of noise out of himself, to the point where some players at this point talk about voting him just to get him out of the game? Also, have you meta'd him? Because I have a beck scum game you might be interested in. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=58487 bonus: it's my most recent scum game as well.

Scripten

, like I said, very much reads town. Question though,

Scripten, can you restate the reasons for going after Grib

?

Overall he reads town, but there were some posts on page 4 or 5 or so that gave me a little pause when I did my readthrough.

BBT

's meta seems pretty consistent when it comes to his tone and aggressiveness, but at the very least it looks like he's pushing a town agenda. Not really seeing scum motivation in his Grib-tunneling, and very much not seeing it in the fact that he's been townreading people a lot this game.

Ok, so you are a meta player. Now I'm very curious what games of Beck's you meta'd.

I can't say I agree with insanity's case on

FinnLaw

, because while it may be true that this post was useless, useless =/= scummy. I'm finding it difficult to see FinnLaw purposefully manufacturing that post and fluffing it up, he reads like town trying to consolidate his thoughts on the game.

This is a much more nuanced read the prior ones. hmm.

Got nothin on Pine and Majiffy, obv not willing to lynch a replacement this soon.

Pine had put a fair bit into the game thread at this point. Why are you lumping him with a lurky slot you're not willing to lynch yet.

insanity

is pinging me but I'm having issues explaining it. I think my main issue is her case on FinnLaw; it seems rather opportunistic, and she's been consistently going after people who are being useless rather than scummy. She had a scumread on Beck earlier but nothing came of that, instead making a case on Finn and then wagoning Yung.

FoS: her

Don't like this either.

I don't like either of your main scumreads here.

This is where I'd have my vote at this point in my readthrough.

[fferyllt]

Beck seems pretty paranoid, which I tend to think town. Or 3rd party. Are we thinking 3rd party is a thing for reals?

Interesting. I never considered the third party angle. Why do you think his play might correspond with a third party?

Third party was being talked about at that point, which was why it occurred to me. Thinking about my own tendencies when I get a 3rd party role, I could see a 3rd Party player jumping hard on every little thing. As the game is unfolding so far, I'm not getting the feeling of odd sorts of eddies in the reads that multifaction usually generates.

This post bothers me. Scripten has his vote on beck, but this comment doesn't assume beck is scum. Which makes the comment about being defensive not fit. It's an extremely mixed narrative.

Scum make reads, too. They're just fabricated instead of genuine like the town's reads. That said, I no longer scumread Beck like I had then, for clarity.

You weren't pushing him about fake reads. It felt like you were pushing him about being bad town, not scum. That sometimes happens to me. I won't realize I've flipped over to a town read until I actually read my post and see that I'm talking to the person like I think they are town. Sometimes I do it intentionally to see what sorts of echoes I get back when I treat a player like they're town.

This was the one thing that really felt off about your play. Otherwise I've liked most of your posts up through page 20-ish.

@Scripten - how many reads would you expect someone to have formed at the point where you asked beck for more reads and less setup spec?

I didn't have a number in mind. I picked a player that stood out and pushed for more information to move the game further. It... worked, but not exactly how I was expecting it to, tbh.

Ok. Was curious why you picked out that particular player, but "that stood out" is a decent enough reason.

262 - Scripten, why were you more sure Pine was town here?

His reaction to my vote read townie. Specifically, that he reacted at all. Seems to me that scum would, upon realizing that my vote was an obvious reaction test, just avoid commenting on it at all.

What was your read prior to that?

Do you base your reads on how many scum think are in the game?

Not sure what you mean by this?

I wondered because at the point where your scumpile had 2 players, mine had 3. They can't all be scum unless there's something really odd about the game set up, but I'm not pushing one of them to null just because 3 are too many. So I was wondering if you were fitting your reads into your expectations for the set up.

[fferyllt]

I like MathDino's page 22 'hey let's slow down' regarding the beck wagon at L-1. Where was this concern earlier? Note to self - check back and see if she was posting at the same time as the earlier wagons.

524 damn it I hate when my scumreads post really town stuff. :/

538 - there's some truth to the bit about SK hunting.

It's exactly that because he's been coasting on that reason for literally the entire game. I asked him for other reasons and he failed to deliver anything.

Finn

is lynchable

but not my first choice.

The bolded pings, but otherwise on this page I'm getting lots of frustrated townie vibes.

564First post by insanity to bug me.

566Another reason to townread MathDino. :/

567This may be a pretty decent case on Grib. I want to dig into this a little more once I've finished my readthrough.

Bbt looks desperate to me

Why?

Grib's 585 is pretty persuasive on the face of it. Adding this to my dig-into list.

624 I feel like I have to be misunderstanding something here. 626 clears it up.

if not one I can get behind

The if implies you can get behind it.

Now my grammar and language usage is pretty bad though

No it doesn't imply that.

665 there is a fair bit of recent majiffy town meta that this can be said about.

Can you both just answer each other? Because this is seriously annoying.

^^ Pretty much sums up my feelings about the last 2-3 pages.

^dat scumpost

Like I said, Grib's in "anyone but me" mode. I don't feel inclined to oblige

I can definitely see this PoV. However, I co-modded a newbie game where scum-Grib snowed most of town to win the game. From memory, his play this game isn't at all similar. Note to self - review that game.

Readthrough is complete through page 30. I'm probably going to start responding to the game like it's real time for the last 10 pages prior to my catch-up.

[fferyllt]

Also, was your reference to (486) a typo or a joke? I mean, the mod is the most confirmed alignment we've got in this game, for sure.

was a typo, but would have made a great joke. I meant 483.

[fferyllt]

Why?

Cause he looked really eager in a fake way

And that = desperation?

[fferyllt]

Lynching for info is bad. I thought we had been over this.

I'm not lynching for info. On the contrary, there's a slew of players I'd lynch if I wanted to go for info.

So what you're telling me is you have absolutely no scum reads and no viable reason to be pushing for my lynch with almost 4 full RL days before deadline

Got a bad feeling about BBT, but Scripten nullifies that with his meta analysis. On the other hand, if Scripten turns out to be scum, I can see BBT being scum. Grib and BBT are likely not powerbussing each other but I can see the scumcase on Grib. Scripten and Beck are either TvS or TvT. Can see Pine/Grib if Grib flips scum. BBT has a dumb argument for Beck being town, seems off to me.
insanity is weird but the rather blinding scumminess of these Powerbus Rangers makes me PoE her as town.

Yeah, I've got reads. But this game has been so focused on bickering that all of them are now associative and mixed up with each other that it's difficult to read people independently.

If you put a gun to my head and told me to guess scum (if you flipped town), it'd be a cross between BBT, Beck, and letting you shoot me. I'm just not comfortable with a lynch on those 5.

I hate this post. :/

[fferyllt]

You know what I meant though, clearly.

Sometimes knowledge creeps in.

[fferyllt]

Majiffy is more interested in snarking at people than playing the game.

Lynch it.

Get him to l-1 and I'll happily do it. Town majiffy doesn't play this bad

Where, exactly, is my play bad?

Provide a case. Because no one has yet.

And then after that, elaborate on your bountiful Majiffy meta to make a statement like that.

cases are scummy!

[fferyllt]

Not refusing to explain reads. I just don't see why I should explain myself to my two strongest scumreads.

I'm kinda hoping this got resolved somehow. If not, how about explaining your reads now? Or explaining why my page 10 reads sucked?

[fferyllt]

Meh. That's a lot of effort and considering I'm up for lynch, I really don't feel like putting it in.

stahp

[fferyllt]

Classic.scum.majiffy

wrong. :/

[fferyllt]

I'd rather we not lynch either of you. I'm right there. Flashwagon on me gogogo

Fixed.

I'm starting to legitimately hate your posts. Who haven't you been willing to lynch at some point this game?

[fferyllt]

Still don't like the Majiffy wagon. Beck wagon remains laughable

We need more input from Insanity

Tell me why? He spends more time refusing to make a case and more effort trying to make up a bad counter wagon argument.

None of this is town behavior

P.edit - cause its jiffy/script

No no no. You're not thinking. It isn't Townish behavior, BUT IT ISNT SCUM BEHAVIOR EITHER

Tell me, what's the motivation for scum!Majiffy to be a stubborn douchbag? There isn't one. The path of least resistance would have been to produce some decent reads, play nice, and participate normally. It totally would have undermined the core of the case against him. He didn't, and there's just no scum motivation not to

Im here, on phone atm.

I don't see what majiffys done that makes him suddenly town.

Scripten, you clearly have no problem with voting majiffy. Why the aversion to hammering before?

See above. I've been saying this all along. Majiffy was a barely-acceptable deadline compromise, but that urgency has been obviated. You people need to pull your heads out of your asses, especially Majiffy

So much this.

[fferyllt]

The scum motivation would be - he thinks he will be lynched anyway and therefore by not contributing doesn't give up any clues as to who his partner would be.

Pine, Remnd me why you are scum reading grib?

So what if majiffy was a different counterwagon to who pine thought he was?

Except he could have sooooo easily done shit that would have prevented him ever coming up as a viable wagon this late in the game day.

I've played a couple games with scum-majiffy. he doesn't lie down and die.

As town, recently, he has occasionally. :/

[fferyllt]

Also what the fuck happened when I replaced in? The game tone has changed completely.

I"m going out to dinner. Will drunkpost later probs.

[fferyllt]

Definitely drunk post, Ffery. I'm currently boozing as well so we can dance.

I had no fucking idea when I read the first 10 pages that you were going to be at l-1 shortly before I replaced in.

are you going to fight it this time?

[fferyllt]

Welcome, ffery. You're using Townish deduction, boffo

oh hell no, blanton's bourbon for me.

[fferyllt]

Don't leave me out here in the cold

a nice dinner and a romantic walk on the beach is that too much to ask?

[fferyllt]

Romantic walks on the beach aren't that romantic. The sand sucks ass

you have clearly been walking on the wrong beaches.

Our walk was awesome.

[fferyllt]

Anyways, can we lynch jiffy already?

Did you seriously get the impression I'm contemplating a majiffy lynch?

[fferyllt]

fferyllt, you're the first person on the internet to consistently think I'm a girl xD. I think my avatar may be a female rex, so I guess that's valid.

Anyway, you have no conclusion for the last 10 pages. Current/updated reads?

Did I get your gender wrong? Apologies!

I am not going to do a new reads list while inebriated. I'll probably post something tomorrow, though I imagine my trajectory on most of the players is pretty well established.

[fferyllt]

He goes or I go, its that simple.

Pick one

You're not the boss of me.

I'm not doing shit before tomorrow, and I'm going to be extremely, EXTREMELY disappointed if majiffy checked out before I got the sand shaken out of my shoes.

[fferyllt]

Definitely drunk post, Ffery. I'm currently boozing as well so we can dance.

I had no fucking idea when I read the first 10 pages that you were going to be at l-1 shortly before I replaced in.

are you going to fight it this time?

No, not really.

I was expecting this to be themed after the movie and it's really just a dino game.

Don't leave me out here in the cold

a nice dinner and a romantic walk on the beach is that too much to ask?

Too expensive to ask, tbh. Looking for a new place, looks like I'm gonna have to double my rent just to live alone!

You're sweet and all, majiffy, but I was talking about my romantic walk with my guy, whom I haven't seen since June.

doubled rent sounds pretty miserable. hope you can avoid that.

[fferyllt]

a workshop for your tunes sounds pretty damn good.

please stop being all apathetic and shit.

[fferyllt]

I don't have any topics. What do you want to talk about?

[fferyllt]

I want to talk about how the fuck Beck hasn't been lynched after provably offering a false meta argument for my having a scum alignment, and then after being pressed further, provably lying and/or misrepresenting a number of my posts.

your recent meta is a pretty big departure from the majiffy we know and love.

[fferyllt]

True, but trying to come at me with a meta bank of 5 games to begin with is pretty weak. Especially when - IIRC - only one was a scum game.

I would totally come at you with a meta bank of 5 games.

[fferyllt]

I would totally come at you with a meta bank of 5 games.

:colbert:

:stuckup:

[fferyllt]

:getout:

[fferyllt]

:sadcheer:

ok so I think beck is pants-on-head town, and that's probably not going to change this game day. Let's talk about other players. What are your reads currently?

[fferyllt]

it works how I say it works
You haven't even proved your arguments so there is nothing to refute.

@ ffly - it's ONLY going to be jiffy or me today. No other lynch is going to happen so quit wasting time.

You're not the boss of me.

How many times have posted something about how things are going to happen today? And how contradictory are those post?

[fferyllt]

see, only scum would self hammer.

Town-majiffy self-hammered in a recent game he and I played.

I think it's happened again.

[fferyllt]

Finally.

Good-fucking-Night.

Look at this shit. you were here, reading along the whole way.

[fferyllt]

see, only scum would self hammer.

Town-majiffy self-hammered in a recent game he and I played.

I think it's happened again.

if that's the case he deserves a site ban for violating the "play to win" site rule but apparently nobody on this site actually enforces rules...

He had a pretty town-sided reason for what he did in that game. I disagreed with him, but I can't fault the reason much.

It doesn't fit in your black-and-white concept of mafia, though, for sure.

[fferyllt]

Hammering yourself to prove your alignment in a 1v1 isnt anti-wincon.

if you are town absolutely yes it is because I am also town.

If both statements are true, there's no way he can know that.

[fferyllt]

Your style of play is extremely suboptimal, beck.

It's pretty obvious that majiffy is going to flip town based on his after-hammer posts.

If you're town, then there are better ways to spend the twilight than slamming him.

[fferyllt]

Finally.

Good-fucking-Night.

Look at this shit. you were here, reading along the whole way.

[fferyllt]

see, only scum would self hammer.

Town-majiffy self-hammered in a recent game he and I played.

I think it's happened again.

if that's the case he deserves a site ban for violating the "play to win" site rule but apparently nobody on this site actually enforces rules...

He had a pretty town-sided reason for what he did in that game. I disagreed with him, but I can't fault the reason much.

It doesn't fit in your black-and-white concept of mafia, though, for sure.

if you are actually excusing his behavior then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

I find players where they are and read them from there. I could say exactly the same about your behavior, but I'm more concerned about your alignment than I am about whether you play mafia in a way I approve of.

[fferyllt]

Finally.

Good-fucking-Night.

Look at this shit. you were here, reading along the whole way.

Yes. Forgive me for not joining you in drunkposting. Alcohol tastes like shit.

The drunkposting lasted about 10 minutes. If that.

My observation stands. You were reading along, there was plenty of game-relevant stuff being posted, and your only post was basically a high five after majiffy self-hammered.

[fferyllt]

I could say exactly the same about your behavior,

there is absolutely nothing wrong with my behavior thank you

then you should be able to appreciate that I don't have a problem with majiffy's behavior tonight.

p.edit - excuse me? 1st we didn't mislynch, we lynched scum 2nd don't tell me to fuck off.

I wish I thought you were correct in this.

I ONLY did the ultimatum because majiffy insulted me and our mod is a [redacted] who can't bother to enforce her own rules. If he wasn't a viable lynch option I would have just replaced out and reported the mod. But he WAS a viable lynch option as he was near lynch when he violated the rules.

Ok, so it wasn't because you thought he was scum, it's because he pissed you off with that post?

I will not replace out now that we lynched scum.

What will you do if he flips town?

[fferyllt]

Ok, so it wasn't because you thought he was scum, it's because he pissed you off with that post?

no I thought he was scum before that

Based on posts Ill make soon, probably. Im pretty sure.

You've come down with a case of spruce, I'm pretty sure.

[fferyllt]

What will you do if he flips town?

reevaluate my reads obviously

I can only assume you're tone-deaf if you haven't already reevaluated.

[fferyllt]

Scripten, you've changed your mind about BBT?

[fferyllt]

Scripten I don't see anything at all prior to post 1186 indicating you'd be interested in voting BBT. What changed?

[fferyllt]

I've modded 2 games that insanity018 played but don't recall if I've ever played a game with her. In both the games I modded she was mislynch bait. Her style of play just didn't mesh well with the player lists maybe.

Anyway, my impression of her posts during my readthrough was very strong town, perhaps because I'd seen her town game twice before, and also perhaps because she's made some adjustments since those game I modded.

I think she's a low info nk, but I also think her nk could be indicative of what sorts of players the scum team want around later in the game. Which suggests to me that at least one scum is experienced and quite competent, and doesn't want to stick out in a "one of these is not like the others" way closer to LYLO.

[fferyllt]

Town

Beck - his day 1 play was pretty much pants-on-head town, which was very different from our previous game where he was scum. His play in the prior game was self contained, reasoned and reasonable, and not designed to draw a lot of attention his way. He was mostly being townread iirc. I replaced into that game after he replaced out, and would have preferred replacing into his slot to the slot I did get given they were both scum. Anyway, to reiterate, his play here couldn't be more different from that game. I'll probably meta some other scum games to get a sense of his variability.

Scripten - town mostly because of his night action and beck's comments about him. His day 1 play mostly left me thinking town, but some of his late-day play looked less town. I could be reacting badly to the reaction tests and his reactions to those test results maybe.

Kinda Town

Pine - his play impressed me more later in day 1 than the early day, especially his reaction to the Beck/Majiffy stuff. He fits my thumbnail model of a player who would kill insanity.

BBT - I am not sure what I think here. I've played one prior game with BBT, and on day 1 I recall writing up a pretty lengthy defense of a player he was tunneling that I thought was town. Something bothers me a little about his reversal on Grib, and I need to think about why.

Mathdino - the player I most need to review. There were a bunch of posts I disliked early on, but I remember liking some of his later stances. He also fits my thumbnail odel of a player who would kill insanity.

Not So Town

Grib - I really didn't like the way he popped up right after Majiffy self-hammered, but hadn't reacted to much of my catch-up or the late-day majiffy/beck back and forth. As a counterweight to that, it would have been easy enough to just let the day end with no comment and not make it obvious he'd been closely following along silently.

[fferyllt]

Which suggests to me that at least one scum is experienced and quite competent,

If I'm correct in assuming you are town, I disagree with that quote. I will say my town read on you has dropped cause I honestly was expecting you to draw the nk

I half expected to die, as well.

If I were scum, I think I would have wanted to shoot within {Insanity, Pine, Mathdino} assuming none of them were on my team. Of those three, Insanity was the lowest info kill of the group and possibly the least likely to draw protection if a hypothetical protective role thinks the way I think. but from an experienced-player basis, I would have seen Pine and Mathdino as greater threats based on how they played day 1.

[fferyllt]

Which suggests to me that at least one scum is experienced and quite competent,

If I'm correct in assuming you are town, I disagree with that quote. I will say my town read on you has dropped cause I honestly was expecting you to draw the nk

As far as your disagreement, that doesn't surprise me given what I've seen of how you think about the game on day 1. The reason I think we have a competent and experienced scum is because none of the players I would characterize as experienced and competent were night killed.

[fferyllt]

Aaand now you're subject to WIFOM.

Why don't you think Beck, Scripten, BBT, and Grib would kill insanity? Again, highly low info kill since she had a sort of 'above it all' thing going on; I did too until I entered the lynch pool. I'm just kind of confused as to why someone WOULDN'T kill insanity. Were you expecting to die or something?

Despite my join date, I've only completed 4 games, just in case you wanted to know. Not sure if that's what you meant by 'thumbnail model', though I can't really argue with the fact that that's exactly what I'd do.

Edit: Pine and I are both in the lynchpool, fferyllt. And this game showcases pretty much my most apathetic play in history due to the fact that I don't think I really mesh well with the playerlist. Pine and I'd be terrible NK targets.

Ok. This info helps me put you in context a little. I really do need to reread your posts!

My most common cause of death in mafia games is N1K, so yeah, I never assume I'll survive to see day 2.

[fferyllt]

Which suggests to me that at least one scum is experienced and quite competent,

If I'm correct in assuming you are town, I disagree with that quote. I will say my town read on you has dropped cause I honestly was expecting you to draw the nk

As far as your disagreement, that doesn't surprise me given what I've seen of how you think about the game on day 1. The reason I think we have a competent and experienced scum is because none of the players I would characterize as experienced and competent were night killed.

So expereinced/competent scum leaves experienced/competent players alive and killa wild card players? That seems backwards

In a larger game, usually no. In a game this size, mylo can happen on day 3. A scum player who is going to generate paranoia by still being alive will want to have other paranoia-inducing players still in the game.

In one of my most recent scum games, I brought Nacho and Zmuffin to lylo for that reason.

[fferyllt]

Why don't you think Beck, Scripten, BBT, and Grib would kill insanity? Again, highly low info kill since she had a sort of 'above it all' thing going on; I did too until I entered the lynch pool. I'm just kind of confused as to why someone WOULDN'T kill insanity. Were you expecting to die or something?

I think Beck's approach is a lot more linear. I think he'd want to remove direct threats. But, further, I don't think he's scum so who he'd kill as scum doesn't enter into the equation right now.

BBT is a possibility, but I think he'd choose insanity for different reasons than I would (and no, I'm not going to elaborate on this. I've given enough meta-signposts about my scum game today). Possibly also Grib. IIRC there's a newbie game where he left the IC and another player alive late, but newbie games are a little different for a host of reasons.

I have a mid-weight theory about how scum would play this game. That's all it is for now. Discussing it affects the game state. I hope to town's benefit.

[fferyllt]

1195=Goodposting

Dig deeper on your gut feelings on about BBT. Everything he's doing seems disjointed and nonlinear. Town doesn't generally make a big reversal without a good damn reason

Kind of flattered by your thumbnail model? I think?

Except that is literally BBT's playstyle. Tunneling, hopping, and hypocrisy.

Based on Scripten's meta defense?

[fferyllt]

Which suggests to me that at least one scum is experienced and quite competent,

If I'm correct in assuming you are town, I disagree with that quote. I will say my town read on you has dropped cause I honestly was expecting you to draw the nk

by the way, this suggests you have a different theory about the scum team. What are you thinking?

[fferyllt]

Well I was thinking grib/pine last night just off points you made, I had convinced myself that you were absolutely going to die.

Now im less sure of my reads, and my read of you, especially since I remember who you replaced.

heh.

One thing I usually do is iso the player I'm going to replace and see what I think about their alignment. So far, I've never been wrong about a slot I screened and decided to replace. I keep thinking I should look at every iso in my games from that perspective.

[fferyllt]

Oh btw theory! Scum don't have a roleblocker.

[fferyllt]

Let's see.

Pine (rather dramatically) decided I "lost all towncred" after my unaligned players post instead of just asking me about it, stated that BBT was scummier than me but voted for me anyways because there wasn't any support for the BBT wagon, has continued to push for my lynch while saying absolutely nothing about

my

push on BBT besides whining about how annoying we are (even though the BBT wagon gained plenty of support), and attacked Finn with really shitty reasoning (the reason I believe they're nka).

Pine, explain to me why the above isn't scummy.

Pine, I didn't abandon it. I pushed it to L-1

after

you voted me, in the same post where you complained about the BBT wagon being quiet (496). There was plenty of support for the wagon then. You never stayed on him because you were voting for me. I've been pushing him all game. Implying that I'm only flailing against him now is a flat-out lie.

And why did you even attack Finn before? That's still a question you're avoiding. Be a good little boy and explain yourself.

Given there's a wagon forming on me and BBT is backing off, I'll say he's town for toDay.

The Lynch Pool to Victory is now [fferyllt, Mathdino, Pine].

I'm curious that your lynch pool to victory doesn't take into account your read about Pine and Finn not being knowingly aligned.

[fferyllt]

you are going off my opinion like it is shared by everyone else, you can't do that

Don't we all have to do that to a certain extent? Isn't that kind of the foundational conceit of guessing others' intentions?

Beck could go off his opinion in that manner as a foundational conceit, I guess. It doesn't sound like a foundational conceit for person A to assume that person B's opinion is shared by all/nearly all unless person A also shares that opinion. MathDino said "You guys", which doesn't sound like he shares the opinion. It sounds like Mathdino thought the opinion was close to universal, though?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this.

[fferyllt]

Agreed. I find it really odd how sure Scripten was that he wouldn't get roleblocked though.

Scripten I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

[fferyllt]

Agreed. I find it really odd how sure Scripten was that he wouldn't get roleblocked though.

Scripten I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

Honestly, didn't really factor the idea of being roleblocked into my plans. Suppose it would have ended in my mislynch, but it was a risk I was willing to take.

What was the risk?

[fferyllt]

Rereading BBT's iso I don't think his read-flip on Grib is any sort of smoking gun. I also think scum-BBT would want to leave town-Grib in his lynch pool.

[fferyllt]

Honestly, didn't really factor the idea of being roleblocked into my plans. Suppose it would have ended in my mislynch, but it was a risk I was willing to take.

What was the risk?

Well, I could have not claimed and been lynched or risk an attack at night after soft claiming. Being roleblocked would result in a mislynch on D2, I suppose, but that was just trading a mislynch on D1 for one on D2.

This sounds a little like Shaheed's Law.

[fferyllt]

@Mod I'm semi-vla through Monday.

>>Noted<<

Should be able to catch up once or twice, but won't be able to post much.

[fferyllt]

Scripten I really, really hate the way you push for consensus lynches.

[fferyllt]

it looks more like brokering a lynch than scum hunting.

[fferyllt]

your posts look like you want to find out how much support there is for lynching each player.

[fferyllt]

your posts look like you want to find out how much support there is for lynching each player.

Nah, I want to see who is putting their chips where.I

Question, btw. Do you think Grib and BBT are likely to be unaligned?

I don't know. I think it's unlikely that scum-bbt would back off town-grib the way bbt has done, given that grib is in a bunch of scumpiles.

The whole mutual push between hose two mid-late day 1 didn't look like scum theater when I read through it. Right /now I think that there's probably no more than one scum in that pair. Some meta diving when I'm back to full access and normal activity after tomorrow my change my mind about what to expect or look for in both their scum games.

[fferyllt]

excuse typos. phoneposting.

[fferyllt]

The FinnLaw/fferyllt Slot

FinnLaw's first few posts look alright. 190 is pretty town. Scum shouldn't find it hard to pick a side and go with it. Finn probably had the same issues I did getting into the game. Unfortunately, like I said above, 377 gives me flashes of Finn/Grib, considering the fact that he was townreading Grib the entire game but half encourages people to join the wagon, if I'm not misinterpreting.

I have probably put down 3 times the number of posts finnlaw did. I'm surprised that you have nothing to say about my interactions with other players, including Grib.

[fferyllt]

good.

I'm dead tired and I-10 is permanently inscribed on my retinae. Nothing more from me until tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Interesting. I spent some time thinking about this game while driving, and came to the conclusion that Pine reminds me a little of scum-SpyreX in a couple games we'd played because he's put relatively little info about his scumreads into the game, as well as the huzzah type posts he made in reply to a few things I posted.

The first time I played with SpyreX I was kinda wowed by his reputation and brushed over the lack of doing-stuff content.

Rereading this aftgernoon to make sure my on-the-road memory was accurate.

[fferyllt]

I'm beyond stressed. I'll try to get back into this game tonight.

[fferyllt]

Ok, kinda back. stuff incoming.

Good luck, Beck.

Pine and fferyllt really need to come back. If y'all have nothing to talk about, thoughts on my commentary on the game would be appreciated.

Did you do commentary beyond the re-read through page 20?

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt:

Stuff please? I really hate how this game has stalled.

I can't make myself get back into the game right now.

I'm not sure why the barrier to entry feels so high. I want to blame it on being here trying to interact a little before solidifying my post-readthrough reads while the mislynch went down, but I don't know if it's that, or if it's that day 1 just simply ended before I was ready.

[fferyllt]

Catch 22, right?

She said she had stuff, though, and then just kinda left us hanging instead of posting it so we could interact with that additional information.

Ok, so, the stuff I had was this;

- Some of my early MathDino read was predicated on mistaken identity due to name similarity. I've not played with him or with the person I thought he was, but I

had

looked through a couple games with the player I thought he was while meta-ing other players. Because of this, I wanted to do a complete reset on him. I think I've done that by default over the last week of not having any fire in my eyes about this game. It was kind of a facepalm moment when I realized what I'd done there.

- I mentioned in an earlier post some of the stuff that was bugging me about Pine. Basically, in his late day 1, he posted some stuff that makes me want to default read people as town, but that default read will have huge paranoia attached, or even turn on its head based on a couple factors - the length of time they've played here (or elsewhere, but playing here at MS where I can make some assumptions about site meta weighs more heavily), and the degree to which they agree with points I make, especially without expanding on them.

It's hard to explain why that pings, but I've played a few games with players I didn't know who were able to completely exploit a blind spot in my reads development process, even though there would be the occasional warning sign I'd question and reluctantly dismiss.

I've been leaning strongly in the direction of voting Pine, but given he's apparently gone missing for legitimate reasons, and never responded to my 1333, I'm definitely not hammering him here and now.

[fferyllt]

Beck's voting and unvoting of Pine looks like he can't decide whether to bus or not.

No it doesn't. It's exactly what I would have done given Pine's last post and the time on the clock. I want more data from Pine, because my reasons for scumreading him are pretty tenuous on the face of it, though it's a huge gut thing that I'm afraid to ignore right now.

[fferyllt]

No it doesn't. It's exactly what I would have done given Pine's last post and the time on the clock.

I don't follow.

What does Pine's last post have to do with Beck's voting and unvoting?

I don't like that you seem to be ignoring the actual content of Pine's last post

[fferyllt]

Remaining players are Scripten, Beck, BBT, Grib, Pine, fferyllt.

Scripten is practically confirmed town.
You look town on top of the game not making sense with you as scum.
BBT is not scum with Finn's slot. Finn's slot and by extension fferyllt only makes sense as scum with either Grib or Pine.

That's all it takes, haha.

I'm trying to decide if there's any reason to think you're really this naive about scum-pair behaviors.

[fferyllt]

Interesting. I spent some time thinking about this game while driving, and came to the conclusion that Pine reminds me a little of scum-SpyreX in a couple games we'd played because he's put relatively little info about his scumreads into the game, as well as the huzzah type posts he made in reply to a few things I posted.

The first time I played with SpyreX I was kinda wowed by his reputation and brushed over the lack of doing-stuff content.

Rereading this aftgernoon to make sure my on-the-road memory was accurate.

Rereading the bits I missed. Ffery, what of 1333 did you want a response to? There's no question here:

Interesting. I spent some time thinking about this game while driving, and came to the conclusion that Pine reminds me a little of scum-SpyreX in a couple games we'd played because he's put

relatively little info about his scumreads into the game, as well as the huzzah type posts

he made in reply to a few things I posted.

The first time I played with SpyreX I was kinda wowed by his reputation and brushed over the lack of doing-stuff content.

Rereading this aftgernoon to make sure my on-the-road memory was accurate.

Mostly I wanted you to disagree with my characterization of your play if you think it's not accurate. I realize that "hey I feel like you're playing in my blind spot and that's something that keeps happening with good MS players of a certain vintage who keep turning out to be scum" isn't something really refutable.

Have you played with Beck before?

[fferyllt]

Pants-on-head ubertunneling is his Town MO

I wondered because I was the first to call him pants on head town here, and it seemed like you picked it right up along with my very thin meta description of his scum game vs what I'm seeing here, in my second game with him.

[fferyllt]

Well now.

How many votes are on BBT?

[fferyllt]

I wasn't very interested in voting BBT prior to the last couple pages.

[fferyllt]

BBT's flipflopping on me and shoehorning Pine into a scumread is beginning to give me doubts about this. His last word reads are just PoE? I'd have expected him to stay consistent I guess.

Why would he suddenly townread me just for the reaction test if he were scum?

Scum don't pull reaction tests the way you just tried to.

I take it you've never played with Cabd. As scum, he fake hammered on day 1 in NY165.

Probably not something to expect from less audacious/experienced scum.

[fferyllt]

I dunno. I like your flavor claim, but AA9 probably gives out fake claims. Probably more to the point is the way you went after Grib, which is in line with having a very different concept of the game design at the start of the game. I don't think scum would get that passionate about it right out of the gate.

This is why I didn't scumread you for your day 1 flip flop.

[fferyllt]

beck and scriptin town.

You, Mathdino kinda town

Grib, Pine best picks for scum. Pine is mostly PoE plus a readily admitted shitty paranoid gut read.

I'd kinda like to lynch Grib. Day 1, he was involved as fuck while he was under pressure and then did a fade. Day 2 has been similar, with fewer pyrotechnics.

[fferyllt]

In fact,

VOTE: Grib

[fferyllt]

oh shit that rule.

VOTE: Grib

[fferyllt]

Though if MathDino keeps talking about ISOing me and not coming back with iso results, that read will go to hell, jsyk.

[fferyllt]

don't scare me that way. :/

[fferyllt]

I'm semi-v/la due to my family illness situation getting worse this weekend. I'll do my best to stay caught up and in-the-moment but no promises.

[fferyllt]

I don't pressure vote.

[fferyllt]

The only way I can see BBT as scum now is as partners with you. Remember, my current suspects are BBT, you, Pine, and fferyllt. You I can see as scum with all of them.
Your lynch is not only extremely likely to hit scum but also information heavy. Before, you and Pine were equal, but now you're more likely.

Anyway,
UNVOTE:
Because I'm not comfortable with Grib at L-1 yet. Was mainly cool with BBT being there so I could do the reaction test.

Why aren't you comfortable with it?

[fferyllt]

Once in a while I run into a player who does shit I typically do, and it suddenly brings into focus why my town play looks scummy to certain subsets of ms players.

[fferyllt]

BBT I have no fucking idea why you're townreading me.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt:

Would you be interested in my BBT wagon? Today is just getting monotonous. If we end up with a deadline lynch again I'm probably gonna lose my mind. He doesn't have any reads that aren't associative or PoE, and that bugs me. It looks like it bugs you. Come on and join us.

There is stuff he's done that does ping my townsense. Not a lot, but some. Mostly the way he interacted with Grib's gamestate starting point regarding eating habits vs alignment. If Grib is town, then it makes no sense whatsoever for BBT to have so dramatically have flipped his read. So, I'm left with either scum-BBT bussed scum-Grib out of the chute on day 1 for no apparent reason, or scum-BBT flipped his manufactured read on a relatively easy mislynch for no apparent reason.

Or, he's not scum.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt:

Would you be interested in my BBT wagon? Today is just getting monotonous. If we end up with a deadline lynch again I'm probably gonna lose my mind. He doesn't have any reads that aren't associative or PoE, and that bugs me. It looks like it bugs you. Come on and join us.

There is stuff he's done that does ping my townsense. Not a lot, but some. Mostly the way he interacted with Grib's gamestate starting point regarding eating habits vs alignment. If Grib is town, then it makes no sense whatsoever for BBT to have so dramatically have flipped his read. So, I'm left with either scum-BBT bussed scum-Grib out of the chute on day 1 for no apparent reason, or scum-BBT flipped his manufactured read on a relatively easy mislynch for no apparent reason.

Or, he's not scum.

In my scum game where I was on his team, (It's on my wiki page, if you're curious.) he used a similar tactic to push a wagon on me right out of RVS. (Pretty much the same part of the day that he pushed Grib.) Obviously, the tactic was slightly different here, but not enough that I'm willing to discount BBT being scum for it.

OK, I'll take a look.

[fferyllt]

^This fucking thread

I love that commercial.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt:

Would you be interested in my BBT wagon? Today is just getting monotonous. If we end up with a deadline lynch again I'm probably gonna lose my mind. He doesn't have any reads that aren't associative or PoE, and that bugs me. It looks like it bugs you. Come on and join us.

There is stuff he's done that does ping my townsense. Not a lot, but some. Mostly the way he interacted with Grib's gamestate starting point regarding eating habits vs alignment. If Grib is town, then it makes no sense whatsoever for BBT to have so dramatically have flipped his read. So, I'm left with either scum-BBT bussed scum-Grib out of the chute on day 1 for no apparent reason, or scum-BBT flipped his manufactured read on a relatively easy mislynch for no apparent reason.

Or, he's not scum.

In my scum game where I was on his team, (It's on my wiki page, if you're curious.) he used a similar tactic to push a wagon on me right out of RVS. (Pretty much the same part of the day that he pushed Grib.) Obviously, the tactic was slightly different here, but not enough that I'm willing to discount BBT being scum for it.

I am disappoint.

I was hoping to find a smoking gun in that game. Instead I found this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6075725. He claimed to have voted you to move the game along by getting someone to L-2.

His push on you was anemic compared to the way he went after Grib early this game.

Maybe I'm missing something. Aside from voting you early and exchanging a couple posts with you prior to moving his vote over to town, was there something in that game you wanted to point out?

[fferyllt]

I am disappoint.

I was hoping to find a smoking gun in that game. Instead I found this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6075725. He claimed to have voted you to move the game along by getting someone to L-2.

His push on you was anemic compared to the way he went after Grib early this game.

Maybe I'm missing something. Aside from voting you early and exchanging a couple posts with you prior to moving his vote over to town, was there something in that game you wanted to point out?

There was less in that game to go on than there allegedly was here. BBT (legitimately or not) thought that Grib had scumslipped, while in that game he (illegitimately) thought that my RVS questions were scummy. I'm not sure if you could ever find a 1 to 1 gameplay example from meta. And I'm not saying that BBT's meta implicates him as scum, only that it shows that he'll make pushes on a scumbuddy during D1, so discounting him as scum is folly.

There's also the likelihood that Grib is not his scumbuddy.

Meta's a slippery thing. I usually look at tone and textual body language when doing full meta research, and I prefer experiential meta to cold meta.

wincon + role > motivation + personality > in-thread behaviors.

Posting that mostly so players have an idea how I scumhunt/townhunt when I'm firing on all cylinders.

His reason for backing off you in that game was scummy for a player who tunnels as town. His reasons for backing off Grib look way more organic to me.

I don't think I can vote there today. I don't think I could vote him at all other than PoE or deadline lynch. And in the case of the latter I'd be pissed about it.

[fferyllt]

reasons won't happen today.

my townreads are beck, scripten and I'm leaning pretty town on bbt.

mathdino falls back into my lynch pool with that. Based on my impressions over the last couple days I'd put pine more townward than mathdino. This could change if I ever get a chance to go back through mathdino more carefully.

My dad in the final stage of terminal cancer. I'll be back at least once before deadline. probably tonight.

[fferyllt]

I'm here for a little while. I see there's discussion of a flavor claim. On one level I'm fine with claiming my flavor. On another, I feel like at this late stage of day 2 overall it may be more beneficial to scum than to town. I need to catch up with what else is going on. more in a bit.

[fferyllt]

I think it's possible that some of the flavor could point up PRs.

[fferyllt]

I'm here for a little while. I see there's discussion of a flavor claim. On one level I'm fine with claiming my flavor. On another, I feel like at this late stage of day 2 overall it may be more beneficial to scum than to town. I need to catch up with what else is going on. more in a bit.

Mathdino what do you think massclaim at this point will gain town?

[fferyllt]

hm. not sure how I managed to quote myself.

I need sleep.

thanks for the kind thoughts.

[fferyllt]

Ok, well maybe my flavor will help with some of that.

My flavor is a carnivore who doesn't eat other dinosaurs. It eats fish. Carnivores per se aren't bad.

[fferyllt]

Pteranodon.

[fferyllt]

Pteranodon.

this one definitely could be a scum dinosaur

So you think scum didn't get fake claims.

[fferyllt]

Can confirm, Pine/fferyllt is the way to go. Especially with how Pine tried to re-link BBT and fferyllt.

Part of me wants to get really pissy about being targeted this way at this time.

If I'm alive on day 2, it may be a calendar day or two before I have a chance to post.

[fferyllt]

I'm the PR. I Tracked BBT to dead!Beck

BBT + ffery. Calling it

I'm watcher. who did you track on Night 1? what was your reasoning for your tracks?

I skimmed the thread. phoneposting atm. confirming my target both nights.

[fferyllt]

Why would scum keep Scripten alive without the knowledge of their being a watcher?

because paranoia is a thing.

[fferyllt]

I'm really not liking Mathdino's entrance and progression today.

I feel like you are driving an agenda, not trying to determine the truth of things.

[fferyllt]

I don't see how that's relevant. Point is just that the fact that fferyllt's been watching you and scum just happened to tiptoe around killing you seems a bit convenient.

Everyone knew that Beck and I were in the hood. They also knew that I have the neighborizer power. So why Beck and not the guy with the ability to grow the hood?

Do you think scum had any reason to think that you'd be able to neighborize again?

I was very surprised to find I'd been neighborized last night.

[fferyllt]

Either way, I think we can agree BBT is scum.
VOTE: BBT

Edit: The entrance came from me making a sandwich yesterday and realising how much it'd suck for town if it was all VTs and a Neighborizer. At which point I realised that one of you two must be a PR.

I kinda don't think so. It looked like you originally thought you'd be able to make this a me vs pine thing today (hopefully with my lynch happening, I imagine) but have decided to go after the VT for the win instead.

Weren't you raising cain about the votes hitting the thread earlier? something something LYLO? Or was that someone else?

I'm not putting a vote down tonight?

[fferyllt]

Do you think scum had any reason to think that you'd be able to neighborize again?

I was very surprised to find I'd been neighborized last night.

Is it usually a 1-shot role? I wasn't aware of that.

I don't know about usually. I should probably have considered multi shot because of a micro game I recently played that featured a multi-shot neighborizer.

That game had a neighborizer and a jailkeeper on the town side, and a goon and a (even night? I forget!) tracker on the scum side.

[fferyllt]

It's LyLo so I'll just go ahead and spell it out.
Scripten's a PR, prob Neighborizer.
BBT claimed VT.
I claim VT.
Pine and fferyllt are friggin T-Rex and Pteranodon. Unless someone here is lying, or unless the mod decided to make us go up against 2 scum with nothing but a neighborizer, one of Pine and fferyllt is a town PR and I'm guessing the other is scum.

It was this post. but it was pine who jumped on this and called the scum team bbt/me.

From my perspective, pine is almost certainly scum, but it puzzles me what the scum team has been thinking. Nobody targeted scripten on night 1. Nobody targeted him on night 2. So, scum took him for granted as a partial claimed pr on night 1. And also discounted him on day 2. I would think that even if it's a town with a neighborizer and a watcher only, that scum have some sort of PR. And scum should have been looking for a PR last night. Why was Beck targeted?

[fferyllt]

btw my watcher flavor is that the pteranadon flying ability means that I can things above ground clearly. My flavor also indicated that I'm friendly (to dinosaurs, anyway) because I feed on fish, and that I'm important in protecting dinosaur civilization.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt:

Who would you like to lynch the most atm?

pine, probs. I'm still trying to figure out MathDino.

[fferyllt]

My guess: Beck was targeted because he literally told everyone he'd vote BBT out of the gate. If he did, it'd quickly become clear that one of {Beck, BBT} must be scum, and everyone would lynch BBT because everyone thinks Beck is town.

Question, fferyllt: If BBT was town, why WOULDN'T scum leave Beck alive if it granted them an auto win?

I dunno? because I was being pitched as the next lynch, especially with Grib trumpeting it from the rafters in twilight?

[fferyllt]

Doesn't matter. Do you really think Beck is easy to convince on this? Do you think ANYONE would've dissuaded Beck from tunneling BBT to oblivion?

If BBT is town, the only move for scum that allows 95% chance of winning immediately is killing basically anyone other than Beck (just in case there's a doc/watcher) and letting town kill itself immediately.

Why would scum drag it out?

On the face of it you're making a lot of sense. On the face of it.

First of all, it looks like you're assuming that scum would expect Beck to just throw down a BBT vote today. He's a volatile player, with a tendency to tunnel, but he does take in new info and reconsider. Take his scripten read as a for instance. there absolutely are scum neighborizers in mafia, though they usually show up in more complicated setups than micros afford. I've been scum in two mini theme games that had scum neighborizers, and we used those abilities to very good effect. if scripten is scum (which IMO is an extremely outside chance) then neighborizing Beck was hardly guaranteed to turn his read around.

[fferyllt]

What new info? Beck didn't want to be on the Grib lynch, he wanted a BBT lynch. He made this very clear; BBT or bust.

Consider: If scum killed Scripten, we'd have {Beck, BBT, Pine, fferyllt, Mathdino}. From your standpoint, assuming you're town and BBT's town, scum would be Pine/Mathdino. Now, Pine/Mathdino would want Beck to throw down a vote on BBT.
So that means town succeeding relies on you convincing Beck to not be a dumbass and vote out of the gate, or Beck having a total change of heart, which would make no sense because killing Scripten gives no new info.
Does that seem like a sensible expectation for scum to consider?

If this is so, then either Pine threw BBT under the bus BEFORE scripten claimed for me, or Pine isn't scum.

[fferyllt]

I can't stay awake any longer tonight. I'll probably be up at 3 am reading and posting again but right now I really, really need sleep.

[fferyllt]

I'm perfectly happy with my claim.

And I think you just described precisely your problem, not mine, if you're scum. If you're town, then one of us probably will be dead on day 4.

And if you're town, then we need to lynch BBT today.

If you're scum, then lynching BBT most likely loses the game.

[fferyllt]

So, I'm trying to look past the utter necessity of scum-you calling me scum, and try to see decent reason for you to be town in all this.

I saw speculation about a rolecop earlier, but I think that scum would need at least a one-shot ninja in a game with both a tracker and a watcher. Maybe needed in a game with only a watcher for investigative, as well, but almost certainly a one-shot.

[fferyllt]

btw my watcher flavor is that the pteranadon flying ability means that I can things above ground clearly. My flavor also indicated that I'm friendly (to dinosaurs, anyway) because I feed on fish, and that I'm important in protecting dinosaur civilization.

[fferyllt]

I left a word out of my paraphrasing. I can view things above ground clearly.

[fferyllt]

actually if there is a ninja, maybe that explains why scum haven't killed scripten. if I were on a scum team with that ability, I'd assume watcher and/or tracker, and I'd probably stay away from the obv target so's not to give away that there's a ninja.

[fferyllt]

Plausible is a strong term. remotely possible and this is lylo.

Part of what is keeping me a little cray here is that on the one hand I can see Mathdino as a partner to Pine, but I can't see anyone else as a partner to you besides Scripten.

Beck could have been killed to frame you, though, which would make Mathdino's push make more sense.

[fferyllt]

because this.

What new info? Beck didn't want to be on the Grib lynch, he wanted a BBT lynch. He made this very clear; BBT or bust.

Consider: If scum killed Scripten, we'd have {Beck, BBT, Pine, fferyllt, Mathdino}. From your standpoint, assuming you're town and BBT's town, scum would be Pine/Mathdino. Now, Pine/Mathdino would want Beck to throw down a vote on BBT.
So that means town succeeding relies on you convincing Beck to not be a dumbass and vote out of the gate, or Beck having a total change of heart, which would make no sense because killing Scripten gives no new info.
Does that seem like a sensible expectation for scum to consider?

If this is so, then either Pine threw BBT under the bus BEFORE scripten claimed for me, or Pine isn't scum.

which seems pretty implausible.

[fferyllt]

And your ironclad case for beck being killed because BBT is scum also hits that "NKed beck to frame BBT" note.

[fferyllt]

Mathdino, what is your reasoning for Pine/BBT making sense as a scum team?

[fferyllt]

Edit: I know that Neighborizer is super goddamn powerful in the hands of a good player and I know that 1 town PR against a Neighborizer who everyone will assume is town anyway is shit.

Sigh. Neighbourizer is not a powerful role.

This is exactly my point. You're taking everyone thinking Scripten is confirmed town based on his role for granted. For example, if one or two people questioned why Scripten thought he was confirmed town based on being a neighbourizer (which is not a confirmable town-role) it's very easy to see how confusion and paranoia could have ensued from that.

Why would everyone assume Scripten is town based on being a neighbourizer? That doesn't make sense.

Neighborizer is an awesome role in good hands in a setup where pr synergies are possible. This game doesn't look like it had some of the synergies, but him neighborizing a PR on night 1 could have opened up some possibilities.

This game is giving me fits. I'm going to be really sad if I erroneously towned you for your grib interactions

I've got to go do rl stuff for a while.

[fferyllt]

The possible scumteams objectively right now:
Scripten/BBT
Pine/BBT
Pine/Mathdino
BBT/fferyllt

Literally nothing else is possible.

Why do you have pine and bbt as a possible team?

[fferyllt]

{Pine, Fferyllt} - Both scum fakeclaim and drive to have town!BBT lynched via town "certainty."

This one is predicated on you being the only PR in the game. Aside from knowing you're wrong because I can read my role PM, it's hard to see why you'd advance a case that requires you to be the only town PR.

If you're just spinning paranoid wheels, I get that. But try to keep it in the realm of what makes sense set-up wise.

[fferyllt]

GOT IT SCRIPTEN!

This works whether or not you die.

Flip a coin. If heads, you neighborize me. If tails, you don't. PM the mod if you can target yourself or other players and it's even better.
Pine tracks you and if he gets it wrong, he dies immediately tomorrow.

will you please answer my damn question?

[fferyllt]

Why not? This is pure unadulterated PoE. Scripten can ONLY be scum with BBT because he'd have won otherwise.

wincon > motivation > in-thread behavior.

Of all the possible moves that a pine/bbt team could have made to sew up this game in day 3 lylo, why did they choose to kill beck and have pine vote bbt right out of the chute?

[fferyllt]

fferyllt I want to note that tracker+watcher is EXTREMELY OP for town, even more so than 2 cops. Scripten/BBT is just not likely.

a scum ninja would confound both. That's the only way I see pine as town here. But what I'm trying to figure out is why YOU think a pine/bbt team make any sense at all.

[fferyllt]

I had an on my way out the door epiphany.

I claimed in the neighborhood as a test. If I died night 2 given the level of suspicion I was under, then there was a really strong likelihood that the town player in the neighborhood would see that. I said what I did/would do with my role on night 2, but there was no guarantee for scum that I'd speak true plans or that I wouldn't reconsider. I did reconsider, but decided to stick with my plan.

So, scripten is town, I feel very sure of that. There is no way that the three PRs on the table are in this game/all town. Way, way too overpowered.

Pine is scum.

I think that Mathdino is his partner, but I am less certain of that.

I'm not putting a vote down yet.

[fferyllt]

I noticed, Mathdino.

Fferyllt:

What are you trying to accomplish with this ninja discussion. There's no scum ninja.

Yeah, I'm coming around to this.

I play by looking for all the ways players could be town and then narrowing down the ones that don't make sense. I didn't have the time, energy or mental wherewithal to do the kind of day 2 analysis and play I needed to do, and I didn't feel an urgency to somehow make it happen anyway because I depended too much on being a PR and possibly cracking the game that way.

p-edit

crap. you claiming bullet-proof is why I finally decided that Pine can't possibly be town. :/

[fferyllt]

I really have to go now. I'll try to stay semi caught up by phone.

[fferyllt]

Consider my vote on Pine I guess. I was so excited that scripten was bullet proof. It gave town a very slight sliver of leeway to mess up today and still have a chance to win.

[fferyllt]

he is town. I don't believe I'd be alive today if the neighborhood had contained scum.

[fferyllt]

something I meant to point out is that given the neighborhood doesn't have day chat, I doubt that scum have day chat either. Doesn't prevent a planned 1-2 hammer, but it makes it a little dicier;

[fferyllt]

Nope. Going with scripten's request since it matches my own thoughts about voting just yet.

[fferyllt]

somebody slap me if I post again this morning. :/

[fferyllt]

Not relevant; BBT is already voting Pine. If you vote Pine and Scripten doesn't hammer, Scripten is conf town, which proves BBT full of shit.

Edit: :/

yeah and if Pine is town you hammer the fuck out of him.

[fferyllt]

all this pressure to put a vote down right this minute feels scummy as fuck, but I can't see who you'd be partnered with.

I'm probably the slowest player to vote on MS as a rule. Maybe f-16 beats me out, but it's close.

[fferyllt]

Sorry, been in classes all morning, so I've been distracted from the game.

Here's a summary of what happened last night:

- Fferyllt appears. She says that she considers the game PoE and that she considers BBT town and wants to make as sure as she can that she is right. She says that she considers Beck to be town. She speculates a weak scum team and no protective roles. (Due to my being allegedly BP.)

- I speculate that I am the only PR and that I am scumreading Pine with BBT or Mathdino as his partner.

- Ffferyllt claims watcher, having watched me on N1 and that she had actioned to watch me N2.

- Beck mentions that watcher and BP are a strange combo. He doesn't have any real reasons besides gut. (Beck, if you're reading this, good call on that. )

- We all three discuss this a little.

- Fferyllt says that scum may have a strongman to counter. She also says that she didn't realize that Beck would still have hood access and that she would have kept quiet about her role if she had known two players were in the hood. She says that if she is dead tomorrow (today) then one of us is scum.

It's kind of hard to get much of a read from all this. It's a little suspicious, BUT that may just be subconscious paranoia that I can't quite shake.

What is suspicious about my actions in the neighborhood?

Everything I have done this game is town motivated. Not going to make excuses for day 2. I did what I had time and brains for. But, if you can't see how someone with my role and my reads would behave as I did in the neighborhood, I don't think I can help you. My game is idiosyncratic, but one thing I absolutely suck at as any alignment is pretending motivations I don't have.

[fferyllt]

Mostly it was that your main goal was to cement your town read of BBT. You've seemed slightly protective of him, which is minor, but at this point in the game, I'm at my most paranoid.

My main goal was to make sure I had that read right. or not. I felt like I was in a better position to figure him out because he was the only player still in the game I had any significant experiential meta. I played one game with him, and modded a newbie game he played in. insanity and Majiffy, players I thought I'd be able to read well were adead before day 2 started. The rest of you are an uphill battle to learn about during a time period when my mafia time has been severely limited. Figuring him out, especially if he's town, would literally make the game a PoE exercise for me because it would mean 3 solid town reads if both you and Beck lived. Which I expected, kinda. I thought scum would PR hunt last night.

[fferyllt]

And for me.

I realize my defense of bbt is an issue, but I feel like I've had good reasons to think he's town. Even now, I find those reasons very hard to set aside. I am not afraid to defend the hell out of my townreads. It's a defining quality of my town game, which makes itself a bit of a nuisance in my scum game.

If you guys really had any idea how to interpret my play, you'd be worried that I first defended the hell out of majiffy, who flipped town, and then did the same with BBT. I put effort into muddy associations as scum.

[fferyllt]

Are you still townreading BBT now that Grib has flipped town?

Grib's flip if anything strengthens it, because bbt was right to flip his read over to town.

My main issue with bbt right this moment is his read of you. Mathdino is correct about that much.

[fferyllt]

Why did the activity die?

BBT, I'd like your comments on the last paragraph of my post above this one.

[fferyllt]

this is where I'm at. the thing that made pines claim impossible for me to swallow was not that my role makes it unlikely. after recent games I've sworn I won't over rate setup spec again any time soon.

the thing that made it impossible was scriptens bp claim. yeah setup spec but that was a town too powerful for p much anything that could be handed to a scum team.

a bp claim which turned out to be false.

I know I have a tendency to look too hard for ways people can be town because I hate mislynches. and hate then even more at lylo.

pine has been around the block. his complete unquestioning scum call on me bugs me for that reason. it bugs me enough that even without the added bp consideration I think he's scum. if we had the leeway I'd be willing to test his basin with a bbt lynch.

but I can't. after sleeping on it there is no way I'll vote anyone other than pine today.

you have the decision scripten. I won't vote until you are ready for the day to end.

[fferyllt]

I still want bbt to respond to that thing though, first.

[fferyllt]

yeah care with my vote at 5 p lylo is scummy as hell. oh wait.

I note

[fferyllt]

or town loses if I'm wrong and you're hammered. I feel like you wouldn't be pushing me for that as town.

[fferyllt]

I'm not a tracker, but the plan works with watching

what?

What are you then?

[fferyllt]

You won't find meta. I've never been in the position of having a guilty in LYLO, much less two effective guilties. It's incredibly frustrating

Try to see it from my point of view, then. Currently, I have a confirmed guilty on one of two players and I have to essentially guess which one.

Also, plenty easy enough to search your posts to see how you play as town.

Different players for me, but this.

The game state currently is a schrodinger's box and all the pressure to vote in the world isn't going to rush me.

I srsly want pine to be scum because that makes it all very easy from here. And I don't trust my wants in solving games. I've been on the wrong side of Shaheed's law, and in fact was on the wrong side of it in a no-win kingmaker situation when the SK told me to ~~believe~~ what would make a town win possible.

[fferyllt]

Actually, Fferyllt does not get notified of my actions in the hood. If nobody posts, nobody knows.

AA9 made welcoming posts in the hood, didn't she?

[fferyllt]

Yeah, she did.

[fferyllt]

I don't recall agreeing to do anything tonight if town doesn't lose outright with this lynch.

[fferyllt]

I'm here. And obviously not scum with you lot.

[fferyllt]

If this game doesn't end with a mislynch today, I'll decide what I do overnight.

If it doesn't end with a mislynch it means Pine is town or he threw away a perfectly good day 3 endgame.

[fferyllt]

If this game doesn't end with a mislynch today, I'll decide what I do overnight.

If it doesn't end with a mislynch it means Pine is town or he threw away a perfectly good day 3 endgame.

A perfectly good D3 endgame...
oh you know...
like Beck voting BBT out of the gate and me and Pine hammering?


I love how quickly you threw away the Why-Beck-Was-Killed-Theory once it became me proposing it. You don't understand: Scum-Pine threw away the easiest of endgames just to get towncred and make BBT look like scum. Seems like a legit plan. FURTHERMORE he left Scripten alive, which allows us to force him to test his tracker claim (although now he's getting pissy about it).
How stupid do you expect Pine is?

My understanding of this game is totally driven by my role PM. It is a surpassingly strange game if Pine is town tracker.

Nothing about today really makes sense to me because of that. BBT almost has to be town. Pine almost has to be scum. But there is stuff that doesn't make sense if I take both of those as facts.

Roll your eyes about that all you like.

[fferyllt]

Your inability to believe Pine/BBT is a possibility makes me think you're PoEing yourself as the last scum. Because scum never bus or call guilties on each other for towncred.

lol.

It's like believing the beck nk couldn't possibly have been intended to make BBT look bad.

You also exclude possibilities.

I feel like my claim screwed up a beautiful scum plan.

[fferyllt]

Sorry. getting ready to hit the road over here.

You're predicating all that on 1) Beck doing precisely what he said he would do in LYLO. and 2) that an experienced player would be that rash in LYLO.

I know my alignment and role. The game state makes me strongly doubt BBT is scum. I think he's probably getting lynched and I think town will lose as a result. The other narratives being advanced make decent sense if I were some other role.

So. If I'm wrong then my world tilts tonight.

[fferyllt]

fferyllt, lemme ask you something: What was Beck saying in the hood? Did he express interest in stalling the lynch a bit? Or did he continue saying he'd vote BBT out of the gate?

He made about 3-4 posts on night 2, and all of them were about his concerns that a watcher and a bp was overpowered. I tried to get him to expand on that, but he said it was a gut feel that the combo was weird, and he wondered if one of me/scripten were scum.

[fferyllt]

BBT earlier today looked like bussing Pine, but that comment to fferyllt, basically a "Dude, be consistent with your story" reads like coaching.

What comment are you talking about?

I actually have been inconsistent on something, but only scripten would have caught it because it pertained to the neighborhood and as far as I've seen he never commented on it. It was a chronology thing, which I often get wrong no matter what my alignment.

[fferyllt]

I bus sometimes. In this crowd, I'd probably bus if I were scum. If my partner is someone I think is way better than me at scum and way more likely to make it to lylo I encourage them to bus me if needed instead, and depend on false associations and what not to muddy the waters.

Anyway, free ffery-scum meta, worth what you paid for it.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt: You said something along the lines of having kept quiet if you had known Beck was in the hood. You said you were townreading him but that two players knowing your role would have been undesirable. Can you go into that a bit more? Why would you have been bothered by two players you are townreading knowing your role in a private setting?

Purely a matter of odds. After I thought about it, I was more comfortable with having 2 players know my claim and plans. If one were scum and I were NK'd because of my claim, the town player should be suspicious of his neighbor today after my flip.

[fferyllt]

fferyllt, assume I'm scum for a second. I understand that when I make this argument, it's full of WIFOM. But hear me out.

I started today with the PR speculation. In essence, I outed the scumteam as one of you/Pine, and one of the claimed VTs (myself/BBT). The fact that I started the day with this would imply that I had this in mind or came up with it at night, correct? This would mean I had the knowledge there was a PR among you and Pine before night was over, in other words, I already knew you were a PR since Pine is my scumbuddy here. Correct me if this logic falters.

So the goal would be to lynch a townie to win. Obviously can't lynch a PR, and Beck was universally townread. Had Pine claimed a guilty on Beck, Pine would lose. So BBT or bust.
Which would be easier: Lynching BBT and claiming tracker with a guilty on BBT WITH BECK IN THE GAME, or lynching BBT by claiming tracker that really can't be confirmed?
Nothing new came from town between daystart and Pine's claim, according to a me/Pine world. He was prompted to claim by my setup spec. So remind me how your claim screwed up a beautiful plan, when from my scum perspective, you were already a PR and all it'd take to win would be to keep Beck alive and claim a guilty on BBT?

claiming tracker and claiming to track whoever scum killed was the right scum choice here.

What was the optimum play for a scum player faking a watcher claim to make?

[fferyllt]

I think it's fferyllt/BBT. I may flipflop about 5 more times before day ends.

Maybe 5 dozen.

BBT earlier today looked like bussing Pine, but that comment to fferyllt, basically a "Dude, be consistent with your story" reads like coaching.

Edit:
1. Yes, that's basically what I said. We're in agreement.
2. Because from your perspective, I must be scum, and fferyllt looked like she was gearing up to lynch me.
I'm honestly just surprised you didn't go after me at the start of the day. Expected you to switch to me after I pointed out Scripten's not scum.
5. Haven't shown why it's inconsistent with town. I understand why you and Pine are so headstrong today because both of you have 2 people you HAVE to push for.
On the other hand, you'll note that fferyllt doesn't want to lynch between me and you, I don't want to lynch between Pine and fferyllt, and Scripten's stalling the day.
This is because from us 3's town perspectives, we're not 100% sure on the gamestate.

From my perspective, there is probably scum between you and scripten because I think it's very unlikely that scum pine buses scum bbt.

I don't think in absolutes, except for the occasional bet-the-farm town read.*

I'll probably have epic attacks of paranoia over this if this game doesn't end with today's lynch.

*one of the most frustrating ms games I've played, the town doctor (on whom I had a strong town read) faked a cop guilty on me. It shook up my read to a minor extent and I did a metric fuckton of game analysis before I was lynched that mostly assumed he was a derptown PR of some sort.

[fferyllt]

What comment are you talking about?

yeah and if Pine is town you hammer the fuck out of him.

Pine is scum. You must know this given your role.

This.

that's quite a reach.

[fferyllt]

Fuck it. fferyllt's getting lynched tomorrow if BBT flips scum. As flip-floppy as I've been, self-prediction says I'm probably gonna decide on fferyllt.

VOTE: fferyllt

Let's see what happens.

Now I feel quite sure you're scum.

[fferyllt]

I agree that a Pine/BBT team would probably win. It makes so little sense from so many directions.

[fferyllt]

If I see Pine so much as show up in the thread while BBT is on I'm gonna unvote.

For the next 24 hours.

Right.

If you're town, then votingparking me will probably lose the game.

Which is the best reason I've seen to date to think you're not town.

[fferyllt]

I wish I could consistently give a shit about this. I believe bbt is going to be lynched today when it's all said and done and that's likely end of game. making it possible to quickhammer me is just an alternate bad ending.

[fferyllt]

Today's a full day off for me. I've got nothing better to do. So yeah, I'll be refreshing every once in a while as I marathon stuff on Netflix and unvote if things get hairy.

I understand your apathy. I interpret it as you knowing you'll get lynched tomorrow, but that's just me.

I didn't think we'd win this since D1. Now we get the chance to, and EVEN IF BBT is lynched today, there's a 50/50 decision to make. No offence to Scripten but I'd honestly prefer to be the one making that decision.
It's better I perform this now when there's a slight chance I can catch the hammer.

I don't believe you're ignorant of how quickhammers work.

I think your "we" is scum-we. But I don't think scum thought the game was unwinnable on day 1 at all. This is posturing.

What I'm feeling isn't apathy.

[fferyllt]

Explain to me how quickhammers work then. AFAIK both people just have to realise they're both online. Granted, I've never been in a game where multiple scum survived.

Remember my apathy a couple days ago? That's essentially what happens when I'm stuck in a game full of people shouting at each other and calling each other scum for everything. My reads were shoddy at best, poorly formed based on an incomplete read through of the game (I skimmed pretty much every page that contained only 2 people arguing), and I wasn't confident in any lynch. So no, due to overall town confusion, I thought we'd have a less than 50% chance of winning.
Now it's 50%.

I interpret "I wish I could consistently give a shit about this" as apathy, correct me if I'm wrong.

quickhammers work quickly. that's the point of them. If you're town, and if you're right that Pine/BBT make sense as a scum team, then your assumption that there will be time for you to react between the next pine appearance and bbt voting is terribly flawed.

I don't understand why town-you would do this. Scripten has consistently (and correctly IMO) cautioned against town putting votes down right.

If you actually are town, I hope that you learn some things from this game, and don't learn them by losing it.

As for my mindset, it's fatalism along with a sincere desire to see the town in every player if it exists.

[fferyllt]

I'm tempted to tell you to meta some of my scum games and town games where I made it to lylo and see the differences. I'm cautious with my vote in all circumstances, and especially at lylo. The difference is that while I'm cautious with my actual vote, I'm decisive (though often waffly) about my intentions from moment to moment as town.

If you're town, you're misreading me so badly it's painful to read through it. If you're town, your late game playstyle is so antithetical to how I approach the game that as the day has progressed, the few points of agreement I could initially find with you have evaporated. If you're town, then Scripten is probably scum, and that is just incredibly difficult for me to picture.

I would have probably considered the possibility of bbt being scum if pine hadn't essentially counterclaimed my role while claiming a guilty on him. If Pine's scum, then that was a miscalculation. It may not be a game-losing calculation given how things are going. :/

[fferyllt]

you're voting town in lylo and you're perfectly happy with that. what you're doing is going to prove my townyness at the cost if a town loss.

I don't see how is going to clear anyone given that I'm town.

if you're town then I don't know what could get through to you out if have already said it.

given the likely effect of your vote and the rest of the gamestate I feel like I'm arguing with scum, anyway. and that's a waste of time.

[fferyllt]

if you're town then I don't know what could get through to you out if have already said it.

I hate phoneposting. This should read "if you're town then I don't know what could get through to you or I'd have already said it."

[fferyllt]

Fuck it. fferyllt's getting lynched tomorrow if BBT flips scum. As flip-floppy as I've been, self-prediction says I'm probably gonna decide on fferyllt.

VOTE: fferyllt

Let's see what happens.

This is me not wildly leaping onto this. Your Pine + BBT spec is off target

Three pages popped and I'm on a lunch break. Lots to respond to, this was the only thing that demanded an immediate reply

You can't hammer until someone else votes me so this proves absolutely nothing.

I'm on for the next 15 minutes or so Math, anything urgent you want?

^^ and this looks like a message to your scum partner.

[fferyllt]

I haven't said who I'm watching.

[fferyllt]

the problem with that plan is that we don't know if I can self watch.

I'll ask, though.

[fferyllt]

catching scum with my ability trumps clearing myself. I'm going to want to watch the player I think is most likely to die if this game gets to night 3.

[fferyllt]

So, BBT is back at L-1 :/

Either both scum are already voting him (again) or he's scum.

And like I said, in the process of claiming a guilty track on BBT pine essentially counterclaimed me, so him continuing to sit at L-1 without a hammer does nothing whatsoever to convince me he's scum.

It should convince me that Scripten is town, though. This gamestate makes no sense whatsoever if Scripten is scum.

[fferyllt]

I'm developing an intense dislike for you and for this game.

[fferyllt]

aa9 refused to say if I'd be successful in self-targeting and wished me luck.

which is what I expected.

mathdino given all the ways your plan could fail, are you going to continue to push it?

[fferyllt]

I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN SUCCESSFULLY SELF-TARGET.

Why would I choose an action that might fail because of the way the game designed over an action that might find scum?

[fferyllt]

This is ridiculous.

I'm taking a break.

Good luck with your damn vote test.

It doesn't matter whether you're town, you're playing for a scum win.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt, something came up while I was doing meta on you. You said that, for one of your scum games, you won because a player misread your fatalistic mindset as a towntell when it was really a scumtell. Considering you've reused that wording here a few times, I'm a little curious about that.

It's like everything. it's in the context of the game. I can give you links to games/game days where I was fatalistic town, fatalistic scum and scum pretending (or playing up genuine) fatalism and let you draw your own conclusions, if you like. Or I can tell you what I see as the difference in my play and let you/town wifom over whether I'm telling the truth and whether what I'm aware of is also something I can manipulate.

[fferyllt]

Mathdino, I'd tell you to imagine yourself a town watcher and think about what you would make of this game state and compare that to my own decisions and reactions. Even if you're town I think it would be wasted effort. If this is your town game you don't approach the game even remotely the way I do as a predominantly reads-based player.

[fferyllt]

Honestly, Scripten, I wouldn't place too much faith in meta at this point. I'm sure every single one of us can manipulate our meta. I'd like to think I'm self-aware, Pine and fferyllt are experienced, and BBT, well, you already admitted he hates meta and manipulates it freely.

Just reread the game and come to your own conclusion. If you don't feel like doing that, do a few ISOs.

Yeah, definitely jump right in and try to short circuit another player's sorting efforts. That's good townie behavior.


Not.

[fferyllt]

I need to just stop interacting with you, math. I'm so pissed at this point that literally everything you say looks either scum motivated or so derptown that I'd have zero respect for your play this game if it turns out we're on the same team.

[fferyllt]

Edit2: On the flip side, I see most of what you say as AtE. You still haven't answered my question on how much you see Pine/BBT as a possibility. If you don't, you should have nothing to worry about.

Everything in my day 3 ISO answers this.

I see pine/bbt as an extremely remote possibility.

You are voting town. In lylo. If you're scum, then I'm in no danger atm because the two players I think are town don't show any intent to vote me. If you're town, then I'm at eminent risk of being mislynched with a town loss as a result.

The fact that YOU don't consider that possibility makes you either terrible town or scum.