Mini Normal 1711: Flavor not required. D2 deadline: 9/29/15

[Shinobi]

/confirm

[Shinobi]

VOTE: vijay
Sounds legit.

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shinobi

Scum line.

What makes you say that?

[Shinobi]

I still don't understand what you guys are saying.
Elaborate?

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shinobi

Scum line.

What makes you say that?

Thanks for confirming it~

Uhh?
I still have no idea what you mean.

[Shinobi]

This game is lol.


Are either of you two intending to explain what a "scum line" is?

[Shinobi]

Can we like talk?

Is sleepy still not replaced?

Well
I'm trying to.

Everyone seems to be content with doing nothing.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: catboi
k I'm annoyed.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: catboi
k I'm annoyed.

Lol

Clearly I've struck a nerve

You have.
You've managed to do nothing but make a large number of useless comments and come up with a single scumread that you won't bother to explain.

I think you're scum.
Are you planning to do anything about that or is this all I should expect from you?

[Shinobi]

lol, How does any of that add up to being scum?

Which part?
The "you're not really doing anything" part or the "unexplained scumread" part? I think both of those things are enough to warrant votes/rope.

Assuming you disagree with that assessment, what else would you propose?

Pedit: I'm sort of aware of that but I'm really tired of staring at nothing and I really wanna do stuff.
SO.
Let's do stuff.

[Shinobi]

Pedit: I'm sort of aware of that but I'm really tired of staring at nothing and I really wanna do stuff.
SO.
Let's do stuff.

Very fair,lets do stuff.

So being "sort of aware" that he's poking your onions. Why is Catboi(who's avi I want to punch ) more scum for "doing" nothing,than those that have literally done nothing?

How is he more scum than Radiant who used the same phrase and also voted you.

lets start here..

Radiant is also on my list, though he has remained unmentioned only because catboi was around and RC supposedly wasn't.
I doubt both scum would use a similar phrase and associate with each other so early so I'm most likely wrong somewhere, but I intend to find out where.

What do you think of these two players?

[Shinobi]

Is there some other set of suspects that you'd form at this stage?
Who else catches your interest?

[Shinobi]

I fail to see how I'm making anything up about your general uselessness. Do you think that being useless is not a trait exhibited by mafia? Where else would you prefer I focus?

[Shinobi]

Scorpious is likely town but likely dumb town.

Shinobi is probably scum and has done nothing to make me scumread him less.

Why?
To either of those reads.

[Shinobi]

I fail to see how I'm making anything up about your general uselessness. Do you think that being useless is not a trait exhibited by mafia? Where else would you prefer I focus?

That wasn't what I asked you questions about, don't dodge. I'm asking you to explain the scum motivation behind the things you're accusing me of. I don't see how "uselessness" is a scum tell especially given

the game's just started

. This is weak, weak stuff.

And I'll also add that anyone who genuinely believes I'm being useless is a dunce~

Really, If you'd like to start making sense that would be fine by me, but if you want to make stoopid arguments on non-tells that are thinly veiled OMGUS, be my guest.

You didn't ask me any questions, iirc. What did I dodge?
If you want to argue that you're not being useless, what would you propose I do with my vote?

Fixating on talking about scum motivation isn't really anything.

[Shinobi]

Not really doing anything on page 2 is a scumtell?

Great argument, that.

Please try to explain how this applies to me, and not every single player in the game.

As for not explaining my vote,

when do scum actually vote someone without explanation?

Again, what's the actual scumtell here?

Lol. You've named off some things, but none of that poses an actual connection to, you know, scum motivation.

You're ducking these. Hard.

And talking about scum motivation is everything given you can't seem to come up with a decent explanation for

why anything I've done makes me scum

despite seemingly having a strong conviction. I'm looking for a clue as to whether you actually believe anything you're saying.

Where's the scum motivation in being useless?
Seriously?

Stop harping on semantics and tell me who is mafia.

[Shinobi]

If you really want an explanation as to why I picked you over everyone else, it's because you were around and posting but not moving the game forward.
It's really simple.

ANYHOEZELS:

also,

I honestly think Cat is just trying to get a reaction from you.Seems like you,wants to get shit goin,but he' going about it in a different way. Way too early to form anything of substance. I'm personally not a fan of that style,but whatever.

I have nothing on Radiant. Nothing there yet. I guess I.myself am somewhat curious what "Scum line" is..

While I wish you wouldn't step on my toes, you're obvtown, so that's nice.

VOTE: cowbells
until he explains his reads

This is town. Silly, but town.

Why, to either of these reads?

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE: Catboi

What warranted this, exactly?
Where else would you vote at this point in time?

[Shinobi]

While I'm not saying Catboi is 100% scum, the fact that he's been the one getting people reactive isn't very pro-town.

Spreading confusion and distrust

is something that would only be advantageous for scum. Of course, maybe thats just how he plays and we really shouldn't be looking too deep into it, but it certainly looks shady.

How exactly is he doing the bolded?
What's wrong with getting people "reactive?"

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE: Catboi

What warranted this, exactly?
Where else would you vote at this point in time?

it was a joke vote, I think its safe to say RVS is over..

I'm still waiting for more content to decide where to go.. More than enough time

Help me work things out, then?
Stuff happened in the last few pages, surely something caught your eye.

[Shinobi]

Honestly, I don't share that sentiment. There has been a little banter,but I'm not desperate to make anything out of nothing..

What interests you specifically? Bounce it off me. I'll give you my opinion

I don't really see it as "making something out of nothing."
You have

nothing

you want to talk about specifically?

[Shinobi]

I'm quite tempted to call both vijay and Spiffeh town.
I think I will.

[Shinobi]

Shinobi give reasons please. You ask other people to.

Sure.
I like the way both of you are thinking about this game, plus both of you seem more interested in moving things forward/scumhunting than sitting around and doing nothing.

It sounds a bit generic but I trust both of you more than the other shmucks in this game.

[Shinobi]

Uh, my vote isn't RVS at all thanks.

Are you going to explain it or are we going to have to lynch you instead?

[Shinobi]

Rofl. 'Kay.

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:
I've completely lost interest in this conversation. When you feel like being useful, let me know.

VOTE: RC
I'm happier with my vote here atm.

Pedit: This game isn't really fun so I'm not really putting my back into solving it.

[Shinobi]

I tried to get an opinion out of you that was anything other than "you're scum because 'reasons.'"
Interacting with you on pretty much any level aside from having you fling scum in my face for every little thing is clearly a waste of time.

If you have any actual questions that aren't meaningless/based on semantics, let me know.

[Shinobi]

Uh, my vote isn't RVS at all thanks.

Stop dodging questions and help me read you.

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

How so?

[Shinobi]

Uh, my vote isn't RVS at all thanks.

Stop dodging questions and help me read you.

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

How so?

Well, are you scum reading catboi or not?

At this point I feel like his lunacy is more likely to come from town than scum, but I'm still not entirely sure because I'm biased against people who try really hard to get their lynches. I have reason to think less of other players than him.
It's clear that me voting him is accomplishing nothing and I feel like I'm wasting it there, so I'm moving my vote elsewhere.

[Shinobi]

Of course you're not.

[Shinobi]

Actually, if I'm not town for not answering simple questions, what does that make RC?

[Shinobi]

He might have answered this already but I kind of made that post as a knee-jerk thing.
Oh wells.
I'll look real quick.

[Shinobi]

Ehhhhh I don't think he did.
I see him talking about RC a little bit but it's about something else.

[Shinobi]

Well yeah, but the way you went about it seemed more like you were having fun messing with Shinobi instead trying to clear up whatever confusion he had. It would be really convenient for scum to have people even more confused/distrusting than they'd already be at the start of the game. Of course, like I've been emphasizing all game, it would be stupid of me to take any assumptions I currently have and buy into them without letting the game play out more. It's not that I think that you're scum, it's that out of the banter we've all had going, yours sticked out the most to me as "slightly suspicious". Though the fact that you're calling for Shinobi to be lynched without much proof isn't helping your case. Can you explain your reasoning more deeply?

I have plenty, if you can't see it, that's largely your fault. If you don't think a continued refusal to answer questions or engage in meaningful dialogue with regards to his reasoning (when he voted me for similar reasons) is scummy, you're not paying attention. Your concerns strike me as largely nonsensical, my job isn't to alleviate his or anyone else's confusion,

it's to determine who is scum.

I was provocative, I'll admit - but it was with the purpose of trying to suss out his alignment and generate content, not just to aggravate him.

And yeah, more than willing to try to sum things up here in a case so that people understand it. Less than impressed with some of the votes flying around.

No it isn't.

[Shinobi]

And what was so bad about my reads on Spiffeh and vijay?

[Shinobi]

"The purpose of town is not to determine who is scum" - mafiascum user Shinobi, August 29, 2015

Finding scum is only 50% of the game.
The other half is convincing people you're right.
I get the point you're making but, really, come on.

The reads were tossed off, lousy, weak, slapshod, and done with extremely tenuous reasoning, much like everything else you've posted.

Not really.
Let me reiterate this to you a third time:
You were spending time in the thread with an unexplained scumread and you were more content to make snide jabs at people than move the game in any significant direction. It is incredibly basic stuff. I found you to be the scummiest person in the thread at that particular moment and voted you for it.

If you don't feel the need to explain an RVS vote, then how should I ever read you if you won't bother explaining things? Your whole bit about reactions is essentially moot because you have no understanding of my range as either alignment - you're just saying it's scummy because "town wouldn't react that way, only scum would" when you aren't providing examples of me doing either or how it's out of the blue and scummy.

The thing you're saying only applies if you have meta to back it up, which you simply don't have.

Let's break this down:
Shinobi is overreacting to an unexplained vote. <----How and why is this scummy?
Shinobi voted me because he thinks I am useless. <----How is this inconsistent with your earlier posting and how can I only be mafia for thinking it?

I might have overlooked some bits, but those seem to make up the main crux of your case, which isn't really that strong on its own.

"I like the way both of you are thinking about the game" is fairly meaningless (how? about what?), and being "more interested in moving things forward/scumhunting than sitting around and doing nothing." is both vague and worthless, equating activity, essentially, with being a town-tell (it isn't, scum are going to want just as much as town to move things forward). It's a spectacularly lousy reason to think anyone's town.

No, it's not.
Activity and productivity are far more likely to point to townies than scum. Sure, there are

exceptions

, but as far as early game reads go, I think it's a spectacular reason to trust someone rather than someone who boldfacedly does nothing.

Why on earth would you

ever

think nothing/less of people who do stuff? That doesn't really sound like a good idea, tbh.

And as for being "fairly meaningless," there were two bits that I liked about both of them:
vijay's whole line of reasoning seems to be based on prodding Scorpius to do something, which I was already thinking before he actually posted it.
Spiffeh's whole bit on Kyubei refusing to give examples and positioning himself oddly on the whole "you" wagon was spot-on and insightful, and I liked his line of thinking.

Actually, if I'm not town for not answering simple questions, what does that make RC?

Somehow didn't parse that this was @ me, right now null, leans toward town slightly. Not really hard for me to understand the way he's playing at all, I suspect we think similarly. Of course, easy to fake the way he's played so far, but I'd expect that to reveal itself as time goes on. He's all about lynching you, which is points in his favor.

Unflipped associatives are bad because, the reality of it is,
Assuming that I'm town, what then?
And what's so easy to understand about his play? I don't really understand it at all - I see an unexplained scumread and a guy that doesn't care about what's going on. What's so towny about that?

[Shinobi]

I cut off the last bit about unflipped associatives.
What I meant to say was that they're bad because you really don't know why he's supporting your wagon, nor do you know if your scumread is correct. Townreading someone for voting someone you want to vote is weak.

[Shinobi]

Something that I realized was bugging me that I overlooked:

@everyone
Random/Optional question to answer:
What is your overall experience with Mafia games (in/out of this site)? What is your favourite thing about Mafia (and why)?

What were you intending to accomplish with these questions?

[Shinobi]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

[Shinobi]

sad thing is I expect no one's going to read that post given the playerlist

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

good lord lynch this

I just explained this read.
How is this not genuine scumhunting and what reads as "genuine" to you?

[Shinobi]

Finding scum is only 50% of the game.
The other half is convincing people you're right.
I get the point you're making but, really, come on.

then why even bring this up, unless you're just trying to be a tool?

Why would you act like finding scum is the end-all-be-all of townplay?
Same thing.

Not really.
Let me reiterate this to you a third time:
You were spending time in the thread with an unexplained scumread and you were more content to make snide jabs at people than move the game in any significant direction. It is incredibly basic stuff. I found you to be the scummiest person in the thread at that particular moment and voted you for it.

If you don't feel the need to explain an RVS vote, then how should I ever read you if you won't bother explaining things? Your whole bit about reactions is essentially moot because you have no understanding of my range as either alignment - you're just saying it's scummy because "town wouldn't react that way, only scum would" when you aren't providing examples of me doing either or how it's out of the blue and scummy.

The thing you're saying only applies if you have meta to back it up, which you simply don't have.

Let's break this down:
Shinobi is overreacting to an unexplained vote. <----How and why is this scummy?
Shinobi voted me because he thinks I am useless. <----How is this inconsistent with your earlier posting and how can I only be mafia for thinking it?

I might have overlooked some bits, but those seem to make up the main crux of your case, which isn't really that strong on its own.

This is crap. Apparently accoring to you, all reads are worthless without meta or something? Fact is almost nothing you've done has seemed sincere or borne out of honest scumhunting, and a lot of comes off as exceedingly fake reasoning that doesn't really make sense.

Here's the deal: When I drop a vote like that early in the game, someone can brush it off, or they can do what you did and take it seriously.

You didn't need to, but you did, and that in and of itself implies at least some level of nervousness that I've caught on to something.

It's not a definitive tell or anything, but it's something I decided to push on, and your reactions have buried you, especially when you decided to vote me for decidedly crap reasoning that was quickly made invalid.

I find the notion that any player could be determined to be "useless"

on freaking page 2 of a game

absolutely ludicrous, the fact is by that point there's barely anything to go on, to think that I stood out in some way in that regard is ludicrous. That's not to mention the fact that no, I had a gut scum read on you and was advancing it at that very moment. Your reasoning was at most tinly-veiled OMGUS. Now, OMGUS voting isn't inherently a scumtell, I think town players do it a lot but the manner in which you tried to advance the vote was weak as hell. If you'd looked like frustrated town who think they're being pushed on a bad case I'd have bought it, but you didn't - you looked like scum trying to attack the people voting you.

The fact that you're trying to ask me these questions that drill down into my reasoning when you were so unwilling to answer them yourself is terrible, also.

The bolded doesn't imply anything.
I still don't understand why you don't like my reactions.
I don't understand the difference between "frustrated town" and "scum trying to attack people." There's no real distinction being made there.

No, it's not.
Activity and productivity are far more likely to point to townies than scum. Sure, there are exceptions, but as far as early game reads go, I think it's a spectacular reason to trust someone rather than someone who boldfacedly does nothing.

Why on earth would you ever think nothing/less of people who do stuff? That doesn't really sound like a good idea, tbh.

And as for being "fairly meaningless," there were two bits that I liked about both of them:
vijay's whole line of reasoning seems to be based on prodding Scorpius to do something, which I was already thinking before he actually posted it.
Spiffeh's whole bit on Kyubei refusing to give examples and positioning himself oddly on the whole "you" wagon was spot-on and insightful, and I liked his line of thinking.

This is 100% ludicrous dog crap. Suggesting activity is indicative of alignment early in the game is complete nonsense. It's indicative of nothing. Someone simply

doing things

doesn't make them town, and to suggest so is either lazy or idiotic. I lean toward it being scum lazily handing off reads for people who don't deserve them, because as scum you see towniness in everything, even when it's not really there. vijay pressuring scorp because he's not voting anyone is actually fairly weak, anyone can press on that sort of junk

because it's not really a tell

.

Scumhunting is towny, shockingly.

Unflipped associatives are bad because, the reality of it is,
Assuming that I'm town, what then?
And what's so easy to understand about his play? I don't really understand it at all - I see an unexplained scumread and a guy that doesn't care about what's going on. What's so towny about that?

Wasn't making associations at all - I just like the fact he's read you the exact same way I have, implying a similar line of thinking. I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand it.

I can't say I'd be able to, considering he hasn't explained it and you don't know why he's siding with you either.

[Shinobi]

Do you have any reason to believe that me voting Jean is actually bad aside from the fact that I dropped a vote after asking a question?

[Shinobi]

Something that I realized was bugging me that I overlooked:

@everyone
Random/Optional question to answer:
What is your overall experience with Mafia games (in/out of this site)? What is your favourite thing about Mafia (and why)?

What were you intending to accomplish with these questions?

I have seen this question many times, I dont find it scummy at all. I think its a good jumping point for conversations.

What have these questions led to, in your experience?
iirc I don't really like much of Jean's filter. It's short and seems somewhat aimless, plus he never really got a response from RC in regards to why he's voting in yet drops the subject anyway.

[Shinobi]

Nah, let's talk~

Do you think someone "being useless" on page 2 of a game is a good reason to vote them?

I would also say it's better than gut.

[Shinobi]

It's better than RVS.

Is it really? To my mind it's a borderline nonsensical tell, you expect everyone to have been "useful" by page 2? That scum are somehow going to be unable to post content?

(This is to put aside the fact that I was, very clearly, being

very

useful)

I see you're voting RC, I think that's a wrong vote but I'm also fairly sure I'm not going to be able to persuade you why at this point in time.

So, instead of that, tell me what you think of these 3 players:

JeanDarc
LexTrew
vijay2vasandani

No. You weren't.

[Shinobi]

Spiffeh is cancer, most of this lobby is bad, and Shinobi is probably scum.

Why are you even playing this game, like really?

[Shinobi]

No. You weren't.

Only a moron or scum would believe that, luckily you're the latter. Hush, I'm talking to spiffeh, I have nothing more to say to you at this point, and probably won't until I get you lynched.

Spiffeh is cancer, most of this lobby is bad, and Shinobi is probably scum.

Jesus, be polite. He's clearly trying even if his reasoning hasn't been great (why should it be?). Posts like this aren't going to help anyone. You don't have to stay in this game if you don't like it.

But if you do decide to stay, we could discuss who shinobi's partner is~. I've got some ideas, but want to hear what you think.

I mean really you saw the signup list, you should have known what you were getting into.

What exactly has you

so convinced

that your start was so immaculate and perfect that nobody could ever scumread you for it?

[Shinobi]

Oh I'm misrepping now?
'Kay.

[Shinobi]

This tunnel feels like pure insanity.

[Shinobi]

Catboi stop trying to discredit my vote by writing it off as inexperience. You should know that votes this early on are not set in stone and pressure votes exist. RadiantCowbells' most recent post does not do him any favors. I have asked him to elaborate on his Shinobi read and he has not. This is anti-town at best because we well get punished down the road if we allow this behavior to continue, especially in a small game like this.

And FYI I'm not new to forum mafia so please stop treating me like I am. (That sounds sassy but it's not meant to be)

(though it did kind of annoy me)

I'm not trying to discredit you whatsoever, I just disagree with your reasoning heavily. These are different things given the fact I think your reasoning is probably coming from a legitimate thought process. It's just that in fact, what you're doing now really is a typical mistake - you're associating anti-town behavior with being scummy, when the two aren't really related (in most circumstances. there are always exceptions). I agree that he's not being helpful, but to assume this is because he's scum pounding the table raging and refusing to answer, is, well, stoopid. It's very rare for a scum player to demonstrate that sort of hostility/frustration he expresses in his post. You need to try to understand people's thought processes more.

Yeah it doesn't really seem like that's the case.
But okay I guess.

[Shinobi]

I can dig a switch back to RC.
VOTE: RC

[Shinobi]

@spiffeh and shinobi,

other than the fact that RC didn't really explain his reads or been lurking lately, what are your scumreads on him? I think he is acting pretty normal based on the single game I've seen with him in it. He will definitely follow up eventually from what I remember.

@vijay
seemed like you wanted to follow up from your last post so looking forward to that.

@Lex

In post 113, catboi wrote:

In post 96, LexTrew wrote:
Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

I disagree with you here on your reasoning behind Shinobi townread. If anything, I agree more with catboi here:

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Shinobi

jeez, that selective quoting fucked everything up on Lex
pedit: I hope this post answers your questions, Spif

How so?
Is your vote motivated by me voting you in the first place or no?

[Shinobi]

And what did you get out of your question?
Who else is scum and why?

[Shinobi]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

[Shinobi]

Cool.
Who else is mafia?

[Shinobi]

What is with this bit where people are getting super hung up on one scumread and refuse to go further than that?
It's so frustrating.

[Shinobi]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

I want Jean to answer this too.

He claimed it was for reaction testing but it still seems kinda weak.
Dnu.

I'm probably biased because he's voting me.
What do you think of him?

[Shinobi]

Kyubey what do you think of Jean?

[Shinobi]

Is anyone else not understanding what catboi's issue with me is? If someone else does could they please explain it to me?

And catboi I still want an answer: Who else is scummy other than Shinobi?

You're not doing what he wants.

[Shinobi]

Oh and I'm currently writing an analysis of what I believe to be the current gamestate, but it's getting pretty lengthy. Should I keep it to myself or are you guys ok with what is amounting to be my will and testament?

Post that shit.

[Shinobi]

The stupidity is unfathomable.

Once you've seen that I'm town, speedlynch Shinobi.

Again: why?

[Shinobi]

RC you're really not helping things by posting this way

fact is though they're horribly wrong they're trying in earnest and I don't think they deserve this sort of treatment

Basically, though I'm not sure on the wrong/not wrong bit.
You're playing like a shitter and everyone just kind of wants you to explain things so we can move forward.

[Shinobi]

Not thrilled that Shinobi sees someone at L-1 this early and doesn't unvote.

You unvoted.
I also don't care if RC eats rope if this is how he's going to continue to act.

[Shinobi]

RC is at L-1 in #205
You post #210
I unvote #212

You saw him at L-1 and left him there.

I don't care if he eats rope.

[Shinobi]

shinobi btw never posted an actual tangible explanation for voting RC (because he doesn't have one)

This is untrue.
You are RC both wound up on my scumlist early for almost the exact same thing.

Then it's safe to assume you believe his reaction to being at L-1 was scummy? If so why?

No it isn't.

[Shinobi]

This is untrue.
You are RC both wound up on my scumlist early for almost the exact same thing.

quote it, tough guy. Everything you've outed as reasoning is superficial nonsense that shows zero regard for legitimate assessment of a player's actions/motivation and simply appraising appearances, but you haven't even really bothered making arguments for RC-scum

Alternatively you can stop acting like such a cunt and go read it.
It's post #54.

[Shinobi]

There's absolutely zero reason to be using language like that in this game.

Shut up.
Go read and and stop fucking bugging me.

[Shinobi]

It is absolute basic mafia play to explain your reads and both you and RC are acting like shitters about it.

[Shinobi]

Having catboi on your scumlist is literally unfathomable fyi.

That's a scumclaim of the highest order.

Except I changed my read already.
So good job not reading the thread either.

[Shinobi]

Radiant is also on my list, though he has remained unmentioned only because catboi was around and RC supposedly wasn't.
I doubt both scum would use a similar phrase and associate with each other so early so I'm most likely wrong somewhere, but I intend to find out where.

What do you think of these two players?

Uh, my vote isn't RVS at all thanks.

Are you going to explain it or are we going to have to lynch you instead?

UNVOTE:
I've completely lost interest in this conversation. When you feel like being useful, let me know.

VOTE: RC
I'm happier with my vote here atm.

Pedit: This game isn't really fun so I'm not really putting my back into solving it.

I can dig a switch back to RC.
VOTE: RC

This is an absolutely

embarrassing

"case" to be okay with lynching a player on. If someone can defend this as the thoughts of a town player, I'd love to hear it, but as far as I can tell he's just been deliberately needling RC.

The fact that Shinobi again refuses to elaborate on his scumread when pressed on it, when that is the

exact

reason he's supposedly voting RC, is a

massive

scumtell

You mean voting someone for having a baseless scumread is a scummy thing to do?
Just like rc is doing?

[Shinobi]

"Deliberately needling rc."
Sure bud.

[Shinobi]

Just claim scum in thread, why don't you?

Approximately zero chance you respond to me that way if you're town.

Refusing to explain yourself isn't the scumtell, it's the fact that it's hypocritical

by your own reasoning

. If you believed doing that was actually a scumtell of some measure, you surely wouldn't do the exact same thing when you were pressed. Your dismissiveness at this point only gives you way further.

I hope to god when the rest of the town starts being active they actually see this because it's blindingly clear at this point

Except it's not the same thing at all.
RC claims he has a reason for voting me.
I repeatedly ask what that is.
He doesn't explain.

He doesn't have one.
He is scum.

Whatever bit you're calling about hypocrisy is literally bosh because he was the one who started this exchange.

[Shinobi]

Lol if that's the sum total of your case

again that's a total pathetic excuse that's an ill-justified reason to lynch someone

Really, folks, there's zero chance shinobi responds to me this way as town and I hope to god you can understand that

RC, please either play the game or replace out

Thank you and good night~

So RC's reasoning is better?
Okay then.

[Shinobi]

Spiffeh get back on RC.

[Shinobi]

Good stuff, imo.

[Shinobi]

Literally, Shinobi, you are behind Huntress the worst scum player I have ever seen and I can't even fathom how you manage to get these backwards ass towns every time.

You're going to win this game, and you don't deserve it at all.

Replace out then please.

no.

Maybe you can explain your read and I can tell you why it's wrong?

[Shinobi]

gun to my head. I would lean scum on Cat..

So, gun to your head, you would call both cat/me scum?

[Shinobi]

gun to my head. I would lean scum on Cat..

So, gun to your head, you would call both cat/me scum?

I don't need a gun to my head for you. I'm leaning scum on you..

Normally I'm not one to point out interactions, but cat has been pushing my lynch pretty hard and RC/I are pretty diametrically opposed.
You think some variation of those three players makes up a team?

[Shinobi]

I don't really have an issue with it either.
Though I don't see why Jean is so town.

[Shinobi]

Have you noticed Shinobi spends more time discussing reads with the people that he townreads?

You seem to be under the insane delusion that that makes him town, so I'm going to clarify this for you: spending more time engaged in undirected discussion with your supposed townreads than pushing reads, particularly when you have a supposed "major scumread" at L-2 who you want to get rid of is not townie at all and I don't know where you got the impression that aimless "talking through reads" is townie, when it's the easiest thing for scum to fake.

I've asked you like 50 times why you scumread me and you refuse to respond to me ever.
Don't even give me that bullshit.

[Shinobi]

What value is that information if you believe I'm scum?

Maybe I might change my read based on things that happen in the thread.
Who knows.

Play the game you clown.

[Shinobi]

Like, what Shinobi is not telling you is that last time we were in a game together I replaced in, called him and both of the other scum within minutes of replacing in, then got mislynched by a pair of terrible masons and had my reads get complete ignored resulting in a town defeat.

That's the context for why Shinobi would be incredibly unlikely to simply dismiss me out of hand this game as town and he clearly has done so.

Maybe I might change my read based on things that happen in the thread.
Who knows.

See that's my point.

For him, this isn't about my read on him, this is about him trying to bribe me into letting him get off the wagon easy since he knows it's not going to happen.

He's trying to get an excuse to change HIS mind, not try to change my mind.

Oh, and

Play the game you clown.

No one says that to a scumread... ever.

Except you're playing absolutely nothing like that game we were just in.
You came in, debunked a bad case on you, and immediately went down to business.
I've seen almost none of that this game. IIRC, all you've done is call me scum for no reason and act like a douche towards anyone who even has the gall to call you scum.

I know you're capable of playing so much better than you're playing right now. I can even see a world where you're town.
But if you're just going to be difficult and bad for no reason then you can just die.

[Shinobi]

Like, Shinobi essentially very early on wrote this game off as me having a permanent scumread on him, and that makes the most sense when you consider I nailed him in the previous game and he figures I've nailed him here and won't let go.

No I didn't.
I asked you why over and over.
You refused to explain it.
How would you expect me to deal with you if you wouldn't engage me ever?

[Shinobi]

Actually no, my play in the two games is far more similar than you are proposing it is.

Firstly, I never engaged with you last game because I knew you were scum. I engaged with Thor specifically because I assumed he was a semi-decent town player and that my reasoning would get through to him. I later realized he was scum and then gave up on appealing to anyone because of the twit masons and selfvoted... much like I did in this game.

Or are you saying that you weren't hoping that I'd end up selfhammering, because it's pretty obvious to me that that's what you wanted.

I don't really think so - your reasoning up to this point has been either borderline nonexistent or weak compared to what I've seen in the past. Whether that's actually confbias or scum is up for debate.

Who else is scum and why? What are your other reads and can you explain them?

[Shinobi]

Yeah, I would absolutely love to see KTK lynched because terrible town is usually more dangerous to town than actual scum.

I have said this exact thing.

Let's get RC off L-1 for a bit.. I think I agree enough with this to re-evaluate.. one of my scum reason was not being engaged.. slowly improving there,and the overall attitude is better

UNVOTE: RC

I agree.

[Shinobi]

What reasoning? I was under the impression that I hadn't shared most of what I was thinking with the class.

Or were you just saying that because you thought KTK and the noob crew would read it and think it's sounds good?

The reasoning that you would hopefully tell us about?
Or is that too much to ask?

[Shinobi]

The only bits of reasoning I actually remember from you are bits where you misrep'd my ISO.
I think that only happened once or twice.
Not like that's any better than having no reasoning at all but they exist.

Pedit: No I'm not.

[Shinobi]

I just want to say that I might have actually bought RC's current argument had he said it before he started getting obnoxiously unhelpful and calling arguments shit instead of providing insight of his own, like he's doing now. The strange thing here is that this seems like a lot of effort for proof of innocence coming from someone that had previously expressed his apathy about winning as town. THE GUY WANTED TO LYNCH HIMSELF FFS!!! Am I the only one who finds it weird that all of a sudden, when the pressure is on, he's suddenly being cooperative? From my POV, it would make more sense for him to just keep his previous attitude if he really didn't care about this game.

No, I don't really find that weird at all.

Either way, even if my prediction of him being scum ends up being false, then not only do we clear Catboi's innocence, but we got rid of the most rude/unhelpful player and we can all be pretty certain of Shinobi being scum depending on who gets killed at night. Lynching RC is a sure fire win/win no matter how you look at it.

He isn't really being rude/unhelpful anymore.

Pedit: I'm still inclined to think of KTK as town but it's hard for me to put my finger on why. I'll get back to you on that at a later date.

[Shinobi]

Okay, maybe he still is but I don't really think that's over the line either.

[Shinobi]

Scorp, elaborate on why you think Jean is so towny?
I really don't think he is.

[Shinobi]

#94 looks like something total noob town would ask

#179 continues that. Not amazing questions,but they look like they are coming from a genuine spot.

They look like questions coming from someone new to the game. Not someone that is trying to fabricate things.

there isn't much to go on,but that's my reasoning.plus a little gut..

I don't really think that "seeming genuine" is enough.
VOTE: Jean

[Shinobi]

RC, I'm still expecting some sort of reads list from you.
I'm aware my current vote likely won't go through but I don't think Jean is as towny as everyone says he is.

[Shinobi]

Shinobi,I feel as if you were going to make that vote regardless of what I said.

@KTK, who said RC was "obviously town"?

I was kind of intending to, yes.
/shrug
I don't think he's as town as you're saying he is. I was thinking maybe I was missing something but it doesn't seem like it.

[Shinobi]

#94 looks like something total noob town would ask

#179 continues that. Not amazing questions,but they look like they are coming from a genuine spot.

They look like questions coming from someone new to the game. Not someone that is trying to fabricate things.

there isn't much to go on,but that's my reasoning.plus a little gut..

I don't really think that "seeming genuine" is enough.
VOTE: Jean

I feel like you are simply wishy-washy voting and fos'ing practically everyone who is voting against you/disagrees with you. I am keeping my vote on you until I get a different read from your future plays. Also, you don't really seem too confident or convicted about your vote on me.

You mean I'm sorting the people who are voting me? Shock and surprise.
Your bit on wishy-washy voting seems somewhat arbitrary - where is that coming from?
I'd also like you to answer the questions I asked before.

[Shinobi]

On the topic of RC, I want people to:

1. Have fun
2. Play the game

---

RC has already broken rule 2, which helps to making the game less fun. If

most

of the players are ok with him staying, then I'll let him stay and let him consider it as a warning. (In which if he breaks it again I'll definitely force replace without another chance)

I'm okay with him staying if he actually plays. It seemed like he was on the right track before the replace, imo.

[Shinobi]

Will get to this tonight or tomorrow.

[Shinobi]

I'm here.
All I see that needs catching up on is the fact that Jean has yet to answer my questions.
I'd prefer RC elaborates on his reads list.

That's pretty much it for the time being.

[Shinobi]

#321

[Shinobi]

VOTE: vijay
Sounds legit.

VOTE: catboi
k I'm annoyed.

UNVOTE:
I've completely lost interest in this conversation. When you feel like being useful, let me know.

VOTE: RC
I'm happier with my vote here atm.

Pedit: This game isn't really fun so I'm not really putting my back into solving it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

sad thing is I expect no one's going to read that post given the playerlist

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

good lord lynch this

I just explained this read.
How is this not genuine scumhunting and what reads as "genuine" to you?

I can dig a switch back to RC.
VOTE: RC

#94 looks like something total noob town would ask

#179 continues that. Not amazing questions,but they look like they are coming from a genuine spot.

They look like questions coming from someone new to the game. Not someone that is trying to fabricate things.

there isn't much to go on,but that's my reasoning.plus a little gut..

I don't really think that "seeming genuine" is enough.
VOTE: Jean

Above is wishy-washy voting. Also strongly OMGUS'y
Also - analyzing the players who are voting you =! scumhunting. Priority of town player should be narrowing down their reads and focusing on a strong scumread by scumhunting rather than trying to "please everyone" or convince the people who have suspicion on you. By being defensive, it only draws more attention to yourself which can act as a distraction that scums can exploit.

I fail to see what is wishy washy in what you've quoted.
Also, I don't understand your bit about being defensive. Do you think that scum wouldn't vote someone?

[Shinobi]

God this tunnel is so tedious.

[Shinobi]

Uhhhhh why?

[Shinobi]

...And?

[Shinobi]

I don't see what I haven't explained.
Your bit on shutting down communication is completely meaningless.
Your bit on you being "too much to handle" is completely inconsistent with the fact that I thought it was more likely you would be town when you started going nuts over something that didn't exist.
I don't understand what's wrong with having static reads. The only static read that I, myself, might have issue with is my bit on vijay, but even then I have a good scumread that I am pursuing instead.
And I don't understand your bit on me voting for Jean and not having anything since, considering I have to keep pressing for info but he keeps either overlooking it or ignoring it or keeps taking absurdly long periods of time to answer things.

[Shinobi]

Yeah, not getting into this again, nothing you've said is convincing and you're not my audience here.

Hilarious.

[Shinobi]

Just an fyi that my townlean on CB is extremely tentative. He's the lowest on my townlist and if anyone I want to lynch ends up being town then I'd suggest we discuss him at some extent. It does kind of seem like he doesn't give a shit about what I say unless he can smear it which is really not towny.

Pedit - What does that even

mean

?

[Shinobi]

Something I realized when actually reading this drivel:

It's a contradictory stance, and his sarcasm/dismissiveness in response from him doesn't make sense coming from town - at this point he should either be trying to reason with me, or he thinks i'm scum and trying to get him lynched (and that's clearly not the case).

Yeah, not getting into this again, nothing you've said is convincing and you're not my audience here.

Much logic.

[Shinobi]

okay im trolling and will now stop

Will you though?

[Shinobi]

>:|

[Shinobi]

Lets see how Shinobi handles significant pressure.
VOTE: Shinobi

Uhhhh.
What?

[Shinobi]

Something I realized when actually reading this drivel:

It's a contradictory stance, and his sarcasm/dismissiveness in response from him doesn't make sense coming from town - at this point he should either be trying to reason with me, or he thinks i'm scum and trying to get him lynched (and that's clearly not the case).

Yeah, not getting into this again, nothing you've said is convincing and you're not my audience here.

Much logic.

Insane how I'm not reading you as town, with great posts like this

My point, though, is that you're not my target audience (I'm not going to convince you to admit you're scum), and at this point you pretty clearly have nothing of value to say, so arguing back and forth with you is pointless, as I'm pretty sure most players in the game won't even read it. (I wonder how many will reach the end of this one sentence)

I think he's town right now. I'm highly unlikely to vote Shino again today, particularly with my major scumreads maneuvering around the area.

I'd prefer to vote one of the two people I already listed.

Well that's unfortunate, as there's zero reason you should feel that way. I also don't think either of your reads are that great (scorp's recent posting has been weak but his earlier effort still looked legitimate, he's an ambivalent read at worst for me). If I had to compromise vote anyone, it'd probably be vijay or LexTrew.

It's almost like I'm pointing out that you're stuck in this absurd tunnel for poor reasoning.
So that makes me less town?
Stellar analysis, that.

[Shinobi]

Its the only reason I have.. A reaction to being l-1 will give us something to use,as would a hammer.

What exactly are you expecting?

[Shinobi]

RC, explain to people why they shouldn't vote me.
Just saying I'm town isn't enough.
(Granted real reasons probably won't either but it's worth a shot.)

[Shinobi]

The fact that I wound up at L-1 is hysterical.
Phenomenal, even.

[Shinobi]

Oh, and I've listened to what you had to say. You called for a reread on Scorpius, which I did, causing me to revise my opinion on him from town to scum.

If by "listen to you" you mean "blindly sheep you when I totally disagree with the lynch you're pushing" then we've got an issue here.

And by "listen", I meant actually interact and respond with what other people say. I got sick of the "I'm right so sheep me" routine on epicmafia. It manages to be even more tedious and less useful when you're doing it here.


p-edit: you're at L-1 because you're obvious scum in spite of your pathetic arrogance about it

I'm a mason you fucking dumb cunt.

[Shinobi]

I should feel bad but I don't at all

Funny how that works

I think it's safe to say we should part ways after this game.

[Shinobi]

If you take being voted in a game of mafia personally, then yes. There's more I'd like to say but it's late and I want to think my words through

I don't really care what you have to say.

[Shinobi]

I apologize for my earlier anger. It was over the line and unnecessary.
HOWEVER, I am mentally checked out at this point and it's hard for me to keep caring when most of my wagon doesn't care about what's going on.
I'll show up eventually but it'll take some time.

[Shinobi]

Ok really does no one really find Catboi's behavior leaning on scum? He's either an arrogant town that can't possibly conceive he could be wrong about his reads or a scum playing all of us. Is there really enough proof to justify lynching Shinobi? Cause all I see are justifications that only indicate we can't be sure of Shonobi's alignment (which I agree with). If Catboi's true motive were to find the truth, then you'd think he would be at least willing to give himself some room for error. At the very least I see this as anti-town behavior, since if he keeps tunneling in on whoever he thinks is scum with only circumstantial evidence, we run the very real risk of him leading everyone to make a wrong choice, even if he didn't actually intend for it to happen.

Yes.
Handle him tomorrow for me.

I'd lynch him now but there's 0 chance that we ever get that lynch to take off.

[Shinobi]

I'm a mason you fucking dumb cunt.

leaving my vote on Shinobi because of this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: scorpious

[Shinobi]

I'm a hard claimed mason and you're still trying to sell me as scum?
Gj.
I'm not moving my vote.

[Shinobi]

Duh?
There's literally 0 reason to doubt my claim.

[Shinobi]

Oh I'm still here.

[Shinobi]

VOTE: LexTrew
Let's talk about this guy.

[Shinobi]

What is it with people asking for my partner?
"What is the dumbest, most anti town thing I could ask about

right now

?"
And then you all say it.

[Shinobi]

Stop lurking guys.

[Shinobi]

and you're producing so much content by comparison

I wasn't actually being serious, but I can't say I care very much about what you have to say when you trollvoted me most of yesterday until I claimed.

[Shinobi]

You're easily one of the people I'd suggest lynching after Lex/Scorpious so don't even.

[Shinobi]

What is it with people asking for my partner?
"What is the dumbest, most anti town thing I could ask about

right now

?"
And then you all say it.

Come on, there is only one scum left. There is already 3 conf town, with your partner there would be 4, and that would leave 2 people that are possible scum.

Just make the game easier.


And damn scorpious that was actually pretty good.

Shut up.
Scumhunt.

[Shinobi]

What is it with people asking for my partner?
"What is the dumbest, most anti town thing I could ask about

right now

?"
And then you all say it.

Come on, there is only one scum left. There is already 3 conf town, with your partner there would be 4, and that would leave 2 people that are possible scum.

Just make the game easier.


And damn scorpious that was actually pretty good.

Shut up.
Scumhunt.

You don't have to be so blunt, Shinobi. If you were a bit less rough people wouldn't antagonize you (like with Catboi). I agree that Lex hasn't done much this game, though. And it's why I'm keeping my vote on him till he starts contributing.

I don't think getting lynched and getting antagonized are the same thing.

[Shinobi]

Somehow I don't think that deadline is accurate.
Btw, I'm aware that Scorpious basically hardclaimed a role earlier so he should probably hardclaim soonish.

[Shinobi]

Im not claiming today.

Are you just voting me because wagon or do you actually have a reason

You're going to get lynched if you don't, fyi.

[Shinobi]

I don't think lex has ever had a scumread on me?

[Shinobi]

ok, lex is probably town

Then who's mafia?

[Shinobi]

I don't think I've ever prod dodged twice on one page.
Yet here we are.

[Shinobi]

tell me how to end this game with a win

Lynch the mafia.

[Shinobi]

Yeah I'm down for an extension.
Or a force replace.
Don't know what Sco is doing but, like, whatever.

[Shinobi]

It's not like anything has happened to warrant me posting a ton of things.
Nothing of value happened. Still waiting for Scorp/Lex to do stuff.

[Shinobi]

That role actually sounds super fun.
Huh.

[Shinobi]

Lex why exactly are you voting Psyche?

[Shinobi]

Three of the players in that vc have been replaced.

[Shinobi]

Did you though? I honestly have no idea.