Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[Gimlear]

Ok, I just finished reading the thread, and here are my thoughts so far:

1. Woody strikes me as Town, mainly because he is actively scumhunting and propelling the discussion forward without super aggressive tunnelling. That being said, I wouldn't call Karmic's "immediate unvote" argument lying. At best it's a misunderstanding; at worst it's trying to see what accusations stick. Also, I don't think Woody's [#24] is alignment indicative without other posts where he uses it as an excuse.

2. I am vaguely uncomfortable at all the posts citing previous games as reasons for reads. Meta reads are not reliable, although I understand using them when you have nothing else to go on.

3. Thor's play seems weird. First, he votes Ciara with no stated reason then attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary. Also, his blatant attempts to get Woody and Garmr to follow his lead and vote Ciara reek of scum trying to push a weak wagon.

Before I cast a vote, I would like Thor to answer this question: What was your initial reason for voting Ciara? You obviously had one (or at least claimed to have one) because you specifically told the mod to ask you for clarification if needed.

[Gimlear]

How is that a valid assumption - I even got Ciara to admit that it wasn't.

Ah, I must have missed the part where Ciara admitted that the assumption was invalid.

Go back and quote for me what Nacho said prior to my vote that I could, in any sense, be logically sheeping.
I'll wait.

That was the problem. There was no logical reason.

What was your initial reason for voting Ciara?

To create a large wagon.

I don't like this response, but it's not necessarily scummy. This makes it seem like you're just trying to rush a wagon for the sake of a wagon. I don't see how this helps Town at all.

[Gimlear]

It is exactly what I was doing. I was rushing to get a large wagon.
How does it hurt town?

I didn't say it hurt town, just that I fail to see how it helps town.

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

[Gimlear]

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

Meta can be used to determine someone's general playstyle but shouldn't be used by itself as proof of someone's alignment because meta can shift from game to game. I just don't like arguments along the lines of "X usually does this when of alignment Y. Therefore, X must be alignment Y." (Not that anyone here is guilty of this yet.) I would just rather analyze someone's play in the current game than try to extrapolate based on previous games.

So, how do you read Thor's attempts to gather a Ciara wagon?

[Gimlear]

As already clarified, scum reading Thor for wagoning is at least antitown, and a bit scummy too.
VOTE: Pistachi0n

How so? From the way I understood it, he was scum reading Thor for excessively pushing a wagon with little to no evidence. And I tend to agree with him there.

[Gimlear]

@Garmr: Can you expound on why you think Karmic is scum? All I see for your reasoning is this post:

I don't like this post to say some one is lurky after only a couple of days RL is unjustified and reachy.

Also, you never really explained your scumread on Dave either, so please expound on that too.

[Gimlear]

I would appreciate less insults in you answers because, again, I have only seen one post from you that explains your Dave scumread:

I gave an honest answer and used an example I don't see that's a scum slip. You through aren't really good at hiding the fact that your scum your like two different people.

VOTE: Dave

Your reasons for the Dave and Karmic scum reads are weak at best. If you want people to believe your reads, you need to offer more explanation than that. It almost seems like you're trying to get away with offering minimal explanations in the hope that we will just believe you and leave you alone...

[Gimlear]

;/ the same could be said for every scum read presented so far in this game. What I have noticed through is you haven't really pushed anything and have just stated facts. The closest to a actual push is on thor and even then you were pretty quick to back off and just take little swings at him instead of committing and actually pushing him hard.

It almost seems like you're afraid to get yourself into confrontation because it will draw peoples attention to you.

I asked Thor some questions in an attempt to get a read on him, and he answered them in a satisfactory way. I may not like his reasons, but at least he has explained his reasons. You have yet to explain what about what about Dave's meta makes him look scummy in this game or why Karmic's posts actions have been scummy.

Yes, in Day 1 we don't have much to work with, but you could at least do a better job of explaining your scum reads.

[Gimlear]

VOTE: pista

Thor and Garmr are town.

Care to elaborate?

[Gimlear]

@Garmr: Now, was that so hard?

@Pista: I agree, but I'm not willing to call it scummy quite yet.

I'm going to sheep the Karmic wagon since, of the 2 wagons, his wagon has a lot more valid arguments. And, as was pointed out earlier, we need to get a wagon going soon if we're going to get a day 1 lynch.

VOTE: Karmic

[Gimlear]

As already clarified, scum reading Thor for wagoning is at least antitown, and a bit scummy too.
VOTE: Pistachi0n

How so? From the way I understood it, he was scum reading Thor for excessively pushing a wagon with little to no evidence. And I tend to agree with him there.

Wagons are bad?

@Garmr: Now, was that so hard?

@Pista: I agree, but I'm not willing to call it scummy quite yet.

I'm going to sheep the Karmic wagon since, of the 2 wagons, his wagon has a lot more valid arguments. And, as was pointed out earlier, we need to get a wagon going soon if we're going to get a day 1 lynch.

VOTE: Karmic

Wagons are good? But that was the argument I was making in response to Pistachi0n.
Can you summarize the differences between the wagons that led you to make this choice?

I don't like wagons for the sake of wagons. As I mentioned before, Karmic has a couple people making decent arguments against him. The arguments against Ciara are practically non-existent.

[Gimlear]

This pretty much summarizes the reasons for the Karmic wagon:

Most of the things [Karmic] pointed to are things that either weren't true, weren't scummy, or weren't alignment indicative.

Compare this to the main reason for the Ciara wagon:

[H]er answers feel wonky to me and not like she's trying to assess me, but rather toss some dirt on me. Note that her last post wherein she becomes aware that she is tossing dirt...she doesn't follow it up with other questions to assess me. She just acts like she's been made aware of something and moves on and does nothing else.

While neither is a really solid case, I lean towards the Karmic wagon because after looking at her ISO Ciara has actually given some opinions of people and has given valid reasons for not being as active in this game. On the other hand, Karmic has been posting consistently and has several people pointing out the flaws in his arguments.

[Gimlear]

Could you quote the scum hunting from Ciara that you like?

Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say I liked Ciara's scumhunting, just that she has provided opinions and a valid reason for not posting as much, which were the 2 main accusations thrown againot her. I was merely explaining why I thought the Ciara wagon was weaker than the Karmic wagon.

Having flaws in arguments isn't a scumtell.
Which one of his arguments do you think is flawed enough to be considered scummy aka was so bad you couldn't see where he was coming from if town?

First, I actually said that the reasons for the Karmic wagon are not great either, but they are better than the reasons for the Ciara wagon. To answer your question, though, it's not a single flawed argument that makes it scummy; it's that most of his arguments are flawed in one way or another. Again, the flawed arguments could be coming from town, but I think it becomes less and less likely the more flawed arguments he throws out.

[Gimlear]

Ok I just reread from post 100 and I know Woody said Karmic lied (over and over) but I still don't see what the lie was. I believe Karmic asked, but I didnt see the answer. Are you basing your read on Karmic on your own read or Woody's?

I mentioned in my first post when I replaced in that I thought the "Karmic lied" bit was just a misunderstanding. Basically, Woody was saying that Karmic lied about Woody's immediate vote/unvote on page 2. But Woody has since provided other evidence for the case on Karmic.

Also, I'm basing my read on Karmic from a combination of Woody and Garmr's reads. Like I've said a million times already, it's not a solid case, but I think it's better than the case on Ciara.

[Gimlear]

@Thor:

1. I have already answered most of your questions already. Please reread my ISO (it's not that long) and come back with more specific questions.

2. I never said I townread Ciara, just that the scumcase on her was weaker because the case on her is basically that she hasn't been very active in this game.

That being said, I am not opposed to a Ciara lynch if it means we get some information from it. I just fear that, because she hasn't been very active, we may not get much information if she flips town.

It has, however, been 3 days since Ciara posted, so she's due for a prod.

[Gimlear]

Can you describe the most flawed argument Karmic has offered in your opinion?

Why do I feel like this is a loaded question? Regardless, to answer your question, even though I believe the argument of Woody's immediate vote/unvote started as a misunderstanding, Karmic has since been wishy-washy about the whole thing. Karmic stated that it was a misunderstanding in post 93 but then rescinded this statement in post 154 because Woody was making other arguments against him. I feel like this is representative of his whole game so far because it feels like Karmic is just throwing arguments at a wall to see what sticks and rescinding what gets him into trouble.

That is not the case on her - the case is that she is fake/not scumhunting. How do you feel about that case?

This case can easily be explained by the fact that she hasn't been active lately. I feel like her early posts were genuine and that your comment about being obstructionist was intentionally misleading. Just because she started questioning into that doesn't make her scum.

What info would we get from a Karmic town flip that we would not get from a Ciara town flip?

Karmic has been much more active than Ciara, so a Karmic flip would gain us more information about the people he has interacted with. Also, the fact that Ciara still hasn't responded to a prod makes me worried that we may not get a response from her in time, so we should be prepared to switch wagons soon if we're going to get a day 1 lynch.

[Gimlear]

Why do I feel like this is a loaded question?

Because you're scum and scared of slipping?

No, it was because I had a feeling you would oversimplify the case... which is exactly what you did.

Karmic's most flawed argument is that he was wishy-washy in dealing with Woody's pressing of a case based off a misunderstanding. This is shown because Karmic accepted Woody's answer and then later decided he didn't after 24 hours and more posting by both on the subject - this shows that Karmic uses flawed reasoning because he...changed his mind and announced as such?

Is that right? That's his biggest flawed argument in your mind and/or the best example thereof?

Just because this is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw, doesn't mean it's the only reason I'm leery of him. It's a pattern of him throwing weak arguments out there and seeing what sticks. I have stated before that it is a weak case; I was simply explaining why I thought it was better than Ciara's case. That being said, as I've mentioned before, I'm not opposed to a Ciara lynch.

My comment was only misleading if you, y'know, hadn't read anything I'd posted in the game.
So you think her posts prior to going lurk were showing scumhunting?
I really, really, don't.
I don't even think there's an argument there, like, they are bereft of scumhunting. Literally all she did was poke at me due to me making a misleading comment and then did nothing else and called me a town read, along with Karmic. That comes off as both scumhunting and genuine to you?

First, you say your comment wasn't misleading, then say it was misleading... Which is it? Second, not everyone has time to read every single post. Some people skim, so when you deliberately set up a trap like that, it's just as likely to catch town as it is to catch scum. I don't think anything she did was particularly alignment indicative.

Like what?
If he flipped town all we would know is that he was honest when he was changing his mind and pressing some cases that, I at least, have not been blown away by - it wouldn't actually tell us anything more than that. So whether he posted buckets or posted nothing (like Ciara) I am unsure of the value difference there. In fact, i submit there is no value difference.
Can you offer me one read (just one) that we would gain if Karmic flipped town?
Like, if he was an Innocent Child and declared right now and did nothing else - what info would you then have to draw a new conclusion in this game?

For one, I would like to see Woody's (who unfortunately has been replaced) and Garmr's reactions, since they are the biggest proponents of Karmic's wagon. Reactions to a town flip can be useful information.

Let me ask you this, though: why are you defending Karmic so much instead of letting Karmic defend himself? In fact, why is Karmic not defending himself? There's still pending accusations from Garmr that he hasn't addressed.

Why do we need her to respond? Mod will either replace her for flake or we will lynch her sans claim - her flaking/lurking is not actually a valid reason to dismantle a wagon on her.
If it is then I know my new scum strategy
But, you know it isn't.

This is a valid point, which is why I was considering an intent to hammer on Ciara before the others already did it. Regardless,

I third the intent to hammer on Ciara.

Now the question is, do we want to lynch her before she gets replaced or wait for her to get replaced so we can get a claim from the slot?

[Gimlear]

@Thor:

1. You are making some good points about the Ciara wagon, which is why I'm willing to lynch her now.

2. At the time, I was assuming she was not going post. But that is why I was asking. I wasn't sure what the protocol is for lynching someone who is in replace range.

3. Now that she has posted and still has not claimed, does that change your answer?

[Gimlear]

You also didn't address how I parsed down your Karmic case, I asked if I was unfair in that parsing - your thoughts?

The part that I thought was unfair is that you omitted the part of the case where it was repeated behavior. Instead, you made it seem like by dismissing the one argument as not scummy that it dismantled the whole argument when the argument had always been a case of repeated behavior.

Anyways, I can see where eventi is coming from with his arguments, but unfortunately without her direct confirmation we can only infer from what she said. It would be great if the mod could chime in to let us know if we're going to get a replacement. Otherwise, we need to do something quickly.

[Gimlear]

Can you show the repetition?
I grok that it happened with the lurking to not scumhunting bit. When was the second (or third or fourth) time he did it?

The two main places where he did this were #84 and #264. It feels like he's blindly throwing darts at a board here, hoping that something catches on. None of the points he mentions could really be considered scummy. Then again, this behavior isn't necessarily scummy either.

It would be great if the mod could chime in to let us know if we're going to get a replacement. Otherwise, we need to do something quickly.

We have 24 hours to hear from the mod - I suspect we'll manage.

What I meant here is that if we aren't getting a replacement, we need to decide whether we're ok with lynching without a claim or if we are going to rush another wagon. If we get a replacement, then we have time because of the extension.

[Gimlear]

@Radja: While I was initially wary of Thor for pushing the Ciara wagon so hard so early, I'm getting a much better town vibe from him now that he has explained his thought processes.

Also, I think you are correct about the deadline. I was mainly waiting for others to continue to chime in, but if no one is against it and no one has hammered by later tonight, I was going to go ahead and hammer to make sure we don't miss the deadline. I really don't see us flash wagoning someone else this late.

[Gimlear]

Thor, I'm scum reading your attempt to push a huge wagon on Ciara. And like Dave just said, we (probably) have 8 calendar days. I'm not feeling the danger of a no lynch yet. I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game. If a no lynch seems impending after a few more calendar days, I will join a wagon that you are not on.

Thor, you're strawmanning the agruments against you. I'm not voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon. That's inane. I'm voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon with bad reasons. The other wagons I'm fine with.

Thor's reactions since the last time I posted seem town. I still don't like the Ciara wagon, but Karmic is a stronger town read. With no posted countdown, I can't bet on it being 2 weeks. So fine.

VOTE: Ciara

This string of posts from Pista seem really suspicious in light of the Ciara flip. Up until post 244, he had been mostly avoiding the whole Ciara wagon issue. Then he goes from being adamant about not joining the Ciara wagon to "reluctantly" joining the Ciara wagon because he has a stronger town read on Karmic even though he mentioned in his previous post that he was fine with the other wagons (of which the biggest one was Karmic).

VOTE: Pista

[Gimlear]

I agree with the points against Pistachi0n. You'll remember I had identified the stance against Thor pushing wagons as suspicious right from the start.

Any comments on Nacho's attack on Bella and simultaneous call for claims? Especially the timing. I agree with Thor's stance regarding not taking a position on claiming itself. No point in helping scum with PR / not PR guesses that could lead from that discussion.

I originally was suspicious of Thor as well for the same reasons, but in the posts I quoted Pista was inconsistent with his reads (specifically towards Karmic) without really giving any reasons why.

I don't see your point about the timing with Nacho's PR comment and Bella attack, though. Can you explain that one?

[Gimlear]

First post of the day and votes right off. Asks for claims in the same post. The timing twigs me a bit, I've seen scum act like that after a failed kill to try to spook out the PRs.

Maybe, but I can see the Town motivation as well. What I find more interesting is that Radja claimed cop and vindicated Bella right after Nacho started scrutinizing Bella. It could be coincidence, but it is still interesting.

[Gimlear]

Are you suggesting I would fakeclaim cop to clear Bella?

It's unlikely, especially without a counterclaim, but it is a possibility.

[Gimlear]

So you're saying I would risk getting counterclaimed just to clear a scumbuddy, with a big risk of having it all blow up in my face by having a real cop out there?

At this point I would say it's unlikely but not impossible. There are plenty of reasons for scum to fakeclaim cop even with the threat of counterclaim because a counterclaim does not necessarily mean the first claim was scum.

[Gimlear]

So you're saying I would risk getting counterclaimed just to clear a scumbuddy, with a big risk of having it all blow up in my face by having a real cop out there?

At this point I would say it's unlikely but not impossible. There are plenty of reasons for scum to fakeclaim cop even with the threat of counterclaim because a counterclaim does not necessarily mean the first claim was scum.

Just how would it benefit me at this point?

A couple ideas of why scum would do this just off the top of my head:

1. To look town by claiming to have investigated another town player.

2. To fish for actual cop and possibly get them lynched instead.

I'm not saying you are actually doing any of these, but they are possibilities. Let me ask you a question, though: why are you belaboring this point if you are actually town cop? I have not accused you of anything. In fact, I even started the discussion by saying the timing of you vindicating Bella could be just coincidence.

I'm actually the most interested in your thoughts on Thor's alignment today; you seemed the one who was the most critical of Thor's play based on handling the push and I'm wondering if some of that paranoia carried over today or if you think that he's absolutely town. I have my own thoughts of him (which is going to have a bit of personal experience weaved in, sorry!) which I'm waiting to share until certain other people have their say.

My thoughts on Thor haven't changed since this post:

@Radja: While I was initially wary of Thor for pushing the Ciara wagon so hard so early, I'm getting a much better town vibe from him now that he has explained his thought processes.

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

I can't say I see where you got this impression from. Thor's first post was voting Ciara while stating that he would share his reasoning if requested by the mod, which... doesn't sound anything like pre-game discussion at all?

I will readily admit that this point was a mistake, which is why I never followed up on it.

One of my major concerns about you coming into today was the way it seemed like you flipped from suspecting Thor to supporting him and pushing Ciara when her lynch seemed inevitable down the road; the way you're approaching Thor here makes me feel a little bit better about the push in general, although, I still don't really understand why you pushed for the Karmic wagon in the first place. I understand why you chose Karmic over Ciara, but I don't understand why those were the only two viable choices: you had no problem making waves and pushing Thor earlier in the game, but suddenly later you can't vote anything that's not a wagon?

This question is significant to me because it makes sense that scum in your position would limit his options to his scumbuddy and the counterwagon townie; pushing a different vanity wagon could potentially put two scum in trouble early which would be bad and also wouldn't really help your buddy, while pushing partner for towncred/fighting for her survival by pushing the counterwagon are two moves that make a great deal more sense.

At the time I replaced in, I felt that the 3 slots that had the best reasons for pursuing were Thor, Karmic, and Ciara. The original vote on Karmic started as a sheep of Garmr once Garmr actually explained his reasons, but I continued to poke at Thor and the reasons for the Ciara wagon. I was never actually defending Ciara so much as not understanding the reasons behind the wagon. I even stated in my discussions with Thor that my read on Ciara at the time was null, not town.

This is a valid point, which is why I was considering an intent to hammer on Ciara before the others already did it. Regardless, I third the intent to hammer on Ciara.

This post is a pretty good representation of a couple of the problems I have with your interactions with Ciara. For one, you always seem to be acting in Ciara's best interest for a majority of the day (explaining why the case on her is weak, voting the counterwagon) despite not having a townread on the slot. And then, when Ciara is in trouble beyond trouble, you suddenly make sure that you are seen supporting the wagon (by declaring a third hammer intent when it

really

wasn't necessary and talking about declaring an intent to hammer before others did despite not saying anything about it in thread), which are exactly the type of interactions I expect to be happening from at least one scum.

I realize the timing may seem convenient, but it was not a sudden conversion. By the time Ciara was at L-1, I would have gone with either a Karmic or a Ciara lynch, but the fact that Ciara was at L-1 and the day was drawing to a close was why I expressed the intent to hammer. Yes, it was not necessary since 2 other people had already expressed intent, but I just wanted to make sure we got a lynch.

What points did you like from Thor that made the wagon more appealing than before? It was my impression that the reasons for the wagon never changed from the beginning; they just ended up gaining strength because Ciara continued to lurk and dodge.

When I first replaced in, it looked like Thor was just trying to get people to sheep him without really explaining why they should. At that point I felt like the reasons for the Ciara wagon were vague and not well defined. Then in my interactions with him, Thor explained the reasons for the wagon beyond just "because you should sheep me."

[Gimlear]

That would be a waste of a cop ability when Silver's lynch would clear me and my lynch would implicate Silver.

I agree that lynching you would implicate Silver, but lynching Silver would not necessarily clear you because, even if Silver flips mafia role cop, you could still be scum because mafia know each other's roles.

Therefore, I maintain that lynching Pista is the better choice in this scenario, but I would still like to hear from Silver first.

[Gimlear]

even if Silver flips mafia role cop, you could still be scum because mafia know each other's roles.

What percentage chance would you attribute to this being likely?

The chance that they're actually both scum is pretty low because scum is already down a role blocker, so I would put it around 10-20%. But I would rather take the sure path because we have time. A scum lynch on day 1 *and* no NK means we don't have to rush.

That being said, how common is it to have multiples of the same town PR in a game? I'm going based on the assumption that there would only be at most 1 town role cop and 1 mafia role cop.

[Gimlear]

Your setup leaves Radja and Pista out in the open for an easy NK. I think it's better if we don't talk about who protects who so scum either risks missing the NK again or goes after the protective roles first.

Also, I am still leaning Pista as the better lynch of the two, since her claim felt very opportunistic. The things that make me unsure are Pista's willingness to be lynched so we can get info and Silver's out of the jail keeper role at a point when we probably should have tried to keep the protective roles more of a mystery for scum.

I would still like to hear from Dave regarding the JK claim as well as possibly who he jailed last night.

[Gimlear]

One thing I don't quite understand: how did nacho know that Bella was targeted by the JK? I get that Nacho targeted Bella as doc, but how did he know she was also targeted by JK?

[Gimlear]

I believe the decision has already been made to lynch me anyway. I'm fine with that decision.

Silver, is this a soft scum claim?

[Gimlear]

Hurm - does anyone else besides me favor the possibility of lynching Pistach as opposed to Silverwolf?

Yes, I do. The more I think about it tho more Silver's play just doesn't make sense as scum. Why would he out the JK to his scum buddies unless he was in danger of getting lynched? Also, I had a stronger scum read on Pista before the claims.

Dave hasn't said if he jailed Bella or not

Yes he did. Check his ISO.

[Gimlear]

This argument makes absolutely no sense. For one, Silver WAS in danger of getting lynched (unless what equates to a guilty result somehow doesn't put someone in lynch danger), and for two, why not? Outing your night actions is generally understood to be something you do when you're an outed power role, and it's not like claiming something other than a role cop would have decreased her chances of getting lynched.

I was saying this in response to the argument that Silver outed the JK because scum. My point is that scum would want to out their information to their scum buddies in case they get lynched because they haven't had a chance yet to tell them. This doesn't seem to be the case with silver.

[Gimlear]

I'm also slightly concerned about the fact that both Silver and Pista are willing to get lynched today, ostensibly to out/clear the other. This seems to suggest either they're both town role cops or they're playing a very risky scum gambit.

[Gimlear]

Or that they're just saying what you're obligated to say in that situation.
But on the presumption that they're both town - who do you think we should lynch?

That could also be the case, which is why I said I'm only slightly concerned. I'm just bringing it up as a possibility. Part of my playstyle is that I try to consider all possibilities and parse how likely each possibility is.

If they're both town, I think that makes Nacho's claim a bit more suspicious. 2 town role cops, a regular cop, and a JK already seems very powerful, then add in a doctor and that seems too good.

That being said, I still think the more likely scenario is we have town and mafia role cops.

[Gimlear]

This argument makes absolutely no sense. For one, Silver WAS in danger of getting lynched (unless what equates to a guilty result somehow doesn't put someone in lynch danger), and for two, why not? Outing your night actions is generally understood to be something you do when you're an outed power role, and it's not like claiming something other than a role cop would have decreased her chances of getting lynched.

I was saying this in response to the argument that Silver outed the JK because scum. My point is that scum would want to out their information to their scum buddies in case they get lynched because they haven't had a chance yet to tell them. This doesn't seem to be the case with silver.

Why not?

It's mainly a hunch, but it would seem like scum!silver would try to earn towncred by holding back the result as much as possible, claiming he had found a protective role and didn't want to out them, then reveal his result only when he was in danger of being lynched.

Also, the day is almost halfway over and still no vote count. I don't have time to comb through the votes, so could someone else post the vote count?

[Gimlear]

If they're both town, I think that makes Nacho's claim a bit more suspicious. 2 town role cops, a regular cop, and a JK already seems very powerful, then add in a doctor and that seems too good.

Agreed - logically though, wouldn't the triple investigatives be more suspect than the doc - making the cop the more questionable role?

It would except that Radja was the first to claim (and still with no counterclaim), which makes him least likely to be a fakeclaim. That brings us back to the more likely scenario that one or both of the role cop claims are scum.

[Gimlear]

Dave is someone I have a hard time reading in games as I pretty much scumread him always. Last game I think I had a scumread on him all game and he was town. The game before that he was scum. But I have a neutral read there for now. I'm gonna re-read that scum game since it's been awhile.

Found the quote Nacho was referencing. I would like to hear what silver has to say about this, as it does seem weird that he null reads someone he just got a JK result for.

[Gimlear]

So, just thinking out loud here. If she flips town role cop, that makes Pista almost definitely scum. If she flips mafia role cop, that makes Pista very likely town with a small chance of a dual scum gambit. If she flips pretty much anything else, that makes Pista a dirty rotten liar and therefore scum.

[Gimlear]

So, if I'm getting this correctly, whoever Dave jailed should be scum since Dave was protected. Right?

[Gimlear]

Wait. No, I'm confusing myself. Scum could have gone after Dave and failed due to the doc protection rather than from being jailed.

[Gimlear]

I think we should lynch who Dave jailed and if they're town, lynch Dave tomorrow.

o.O

[Gimlear]

@Thor: According to the wiki, Godfather would always appear as Godfather to a role cop and town to a cop. So, Bella is cleared at this point.

@Pista: The reason we're confused is because you said to lynch the JK tomorrow. Why?

[Gimlear]

@Garmr: At that point why not just lynch Karmic and use those investigations for something else?

[Gimlear]

I would personally tend to advocate;

Jail Karmic (who, I agree, looked a touch scummy today and tail end of yesterday)
Cop/Rolecop in the Gim/Gummy/Garmr pool (perhaps even specifically calling them out - not sure.)
Doc Jailkeeper.

If we have another no kill day then we can lynch Karmic and cop/rolecop the last of the G's plus, I dunno, me or Nacho or something.
If scum is no killing they'll have to debate sitting and letting us basically investigate everyone else.
If they're not no killing they're Karmic and are busted at this stage.

Anyone see any holes or improvements to that plan?

So, if I'm understanding coreectly, you're advocating a no lynch today and basically using the night to gather information until we have scum in our sights. Correct?

That would be bastard modding, yes.

Is it also considered bastard modding to not post a vote count for 7 days even when asked?

[Gimlear]

I'm hearing arguments for both no lynch and lynching Karmic. Honestly, I would rather lynch Karmic today.

So, to that end: VOTE: Karmic

[Gimlear]

There are valid reasons for both lynching Karmic and for a no lynch. It's just matter of what does everyone else want to do because those are our 2 main options for today.

[Gimlear]

Karmic has been silent, so I think this game will be over when we Lynch him.

As I said in my last post, lynching me seems fine. It's due diligence on town's part, if Dave jailed me last night. I'm not the self-voting type, but I'm fine with that plan.

When I flip VT, though, I'd definitely suggest looking at Dave.

Hmmm, I think I see the logic here. Basically, there's a chance at Dave being the last scum pulling a JK gambit (coordinated with Silver) to throw suspicion on other people. Might be worth at least a role cop to investigate him to make sure.

This is, of course, if Karmic flips VT.

[Gimlear]

I am ok with either plan really. I admit I just like the idea of lynching Karmic.

Nothing is stopping us from lynching Karmic tonight then no lynching until we find the last scum if Karmic flips VT. Or even no lynching today and lynching Karmic (or whoever) tomorrow if need be.

Also, can people vote for a no lynch or would we just have to wait out the timer?

[Gimlear]

Let's end this day, one way or another.

I agree. The day has dragged on, and I don't think there's much more to say that hasn't already been said on both sides.

[Gimlear]

Why is everyone acting like if we lynch Karmic, we are forced to follow Nacho's plan and lynch every day for the rest of the game? I'm actually ok with lynching Karmic tonight then going into no lynch until we find scum if Karmic flips town.

[Gimlear]

Unless my count is off, there's 12 people alive which means it takes 7 to lynch not 6.

[Gimlear]

Nevermind. I did miscount. You are correct.

[Gimlear]

I'll be shooting Garnr.

Ummmm... what?

[Gimlear]

This game. Seriously.

[Gimlear]

We got really good play from the other PR's. I thought you did pretty well looking like town resigned to being lynched as the obvious choice.

Lol thanks! In my head I was just like, "whelp, how do I make this look like it isn't a prod-dodge... wish the town would wrap things up already."

To be fair, I was also trying not to make my posts seem like a prod dodge either. Day 3 just dragged.

[Gimlear]

*gud